And I think this is like the
most one of the most beautiful passages in the whole Bible.
And this is one of the things I love about the book of Revelation, the deeper
I get into it is, I realize it's such a brilliant genre to end the Bible with
because it forces you
to constantly be connecting and thinking about the whole rest of the Bible.
So it's like this awesome recap.
Paul Lamicela,
welcome back to the Anabaptist Perspectives podcast.
So we did an episode with you, a couple months back that was,
got a lot of attention.
I guess you could say it was on
how to read the Book of Revelation, and I think it's the most requested
follow up that we've ever had for an episode is
get you back on the podcast and go deeper into that,
because there's a lot that we didn't go into in that episode.
And of course, you can check the and check it out in the description,
to those listening to this.
So we're going to do that today.
And I think specifically you're going to be looking in
a more, a narrower slice of it instead of looking at the whole book.
And I'd say, let's just jump right in.
I think we're in revelation 21 and 22.
So maybe you want to lay out some of the groundwork
of what we're going to cover, and, and we'll go from there.
Yeah. Well, it's good to be back.
And I think that when we're looking at revelation,
I mean, there's so many things to talk about.
One of my goals for in the next few years
is to is to develop a whole, teach a whole, entire course on the book,
because there's just so much, so much to cover.
But I think one, one thing that's helpful is to think of the beginning
of revelation, the middle of revelation, the end of revelation.
So the beginning,
he had the letters to the churches, and that helps to ground us and say,
hey, this is a lens that we should use to look to read the book of revelation.
These were written to churches, not to help them speculate
about what might happen in the year 2035, but to show them from God's perspective
how they are to live their lives now with the persecution and the temptations
they face in the middle of the book.
Is this this really interesting pivot chapter in chapter 12 with this, story
of the woman and the dragon and the woman who bears the the Messiah and stuff,
and then how the dragon, the devil persecutes, her and her seed,
which is sort of this in a nutshell,
sort of stories story of,
the, the devil's sort of oppression of God's people
for this whole age, while we await Jesus return.
But then the end of the book is, is another one
of these crucial points, because this is how the whole story ends.
And it's also,
how the whole Bible ends.
And it is a real significance to the way that the closing chapters
of revelation chapter 21 and 22 really are sort of bookend.
The Bible and Mirror bring to completion
the story that started in the Garden of Eden.
So, this revelation 21
and in the first few verses of 22
have a lot of,
weird measurements,
like the angels, like measuring the city, New Jerusalem and very confusing.
Yeah. It's like okay.
And then there's also these, like 12 stones
that are in the foundation of the city, and then there's like the streets
that are made of gold, but the gold is clear
as glass, which is pretty sweet gold.
And then,
and then there's like some strange trees that have a lot of fruit,
and all this kind of all this kind of stuff.
and I think it's really helpful as an example
and a really important example to say, hey, let's zoom in on this text.
And, this is John's depiction of how the story of the redemption,
new creation sort of ends the whole story of the Bible ends
and see how what it's doing is it's pulling together all these threads,
from the whole story of the Bible, specifically Eden and temple imagery.
There's other stuff, too, that we can't get to, in these chapters,
like the new Jerusalem, the theme of Jerusalem,
the theme of marriage, the bride, and all that.
But I want to zero in on those two Eden and Temple and
and show that that's what John is doing here.
He's evoking those things,
in his depiction.
We’re essentially in the last chapters of the Bible, and John is pointing us back
to basically Genesis one, two and three, if we're talking Eden.
Right. And, and temple.
So okay. That's interesting.
So start walking us through that then.
So I mean, we have to say at the very beginning that, temple is a
theme that starts really in Genesis one and two.
And scholars now commonly talk about
how Eden is sort of like a temple space.
I like to say that that maybe, maybe we can say rather that temples later
temples are a little evocation of Eden because so Oh, I've never thought of that.
So it's it's almost like, I'm speculating here.
Okay, I could be way off.
But like Eden, that's the place where God walks with man and so forth.
And the temple would says, oh, that's where we go to meet God.
Essentially, in a lot of ways.
Okay.
There's there's a lot there's, there's, there's a numerous, a number of parallels.
So like, Eden is the place where, God walks in with his people.
And that's the same language that's used later of the tabernacle, where God,
this is the place by which God walks among his people.
It's the place that, you know, there's this there's the, you know,
this, this tree of life, which kind of mirrors later.
Sort of that the possibly some of the elements in the,
in the tabernacle it faces, it seems to face east.
Which all temples later do.
Adam and Eve are given the instructions to,
to keep and to guard the Garden, Avad and Shamar, in Hebrew.
And those are instructions that are reminiscent of the same words
are used for what the Levites are later called to do in the tabernacle.
So there's the sense in which,
the Eden is this flourishing garden space where God's presence
can be with his people.
That's what a temple is.
It's this is the sort of intersection of God's space and human space
and post in a post fall post sin world.
That space has to be confined to a temple
because God's presence can't just roam, you know, freely.
And so temples are, in a sense, the little close,
the that's the spaces where we get closest back to Eden, this place where God
and humanity come together.
So, so those
so Eden and temple are somewhat connected.
And they and it starts right there in, in,
in Genesis, you know, to
three.
What's interesting then, of course, we have the temple in,
in the tabernacle in the temple in, in Israel.
And we have this,
this space where God is, is saying, well,
what does it mean to be my people and for God to be your God?
Well, it's means that he can dwell in your midst again. Right?
This is the one people,
the people of Israel is the one people that God would actually be with.
Right.
Because what Adam and Eve had done in the garden was temple desecration, right?
They had ruined this place where God and humanity could, could
dwell together through their rebellion.
And so they get booted out.
Exile is getting booted out of the temple, right out of God's space.
And so the
tabernacle and and the temple, later temple
are this great thing because it's God saying, I can dwell among you.
But it's also a really tragic thing because it's not God
dwelling freely with in the midst of his whole people.
It's God dwelling in a confined temple within his people space.
Right?
Israelites weren't just freely walking
with God like Adam and Eve had because of their sin,
because they actually are people who are banned from God's direct presence.
Only certain priests could go into his presence,
and only the high priest into the holiest place once a year,
and only after performing
all these rituals of atonement, these sacrifices and such.
And so it's a beautiful thing, but it's also this constant recognition that,
we're never quite in that space, right?
If you have a temple, it means God's in your midst.
But it also means. Means you're not.
You're not.
Sin hasn't been fully dealt with.
There's it's like a barrier It it is like.
Yeah.
I mean, it is it's great because the temple means
God's there with you, you know, and Jerusalem becomes this place where,
you know, this is God's city and and it's God's city
because God's king is there, the Davidic king, and because,
the temple is there and God's God's glory cloud is over it and such.
And so that's the if you want to get close to God,
there is a physical location that is closer to God in a sense,
than anywhere else in the world. Right?
Oh, yeah. That okay.
That is kind of a kind of a wild thought.
I guess. I hadn't really thought of it like that before. Yes.
why, that's why David and, and the other psalmist
will speak of how they long to be in the temple because,
there's the
sense in which that, of course, God is omnipresent and stuff,
but God's sort of presence, his dwelling with his people,
is, is in this place and, and,
and that's if you want to be close to God and find forgiveness.
That's why Solomon's prayer of dedication,
says, when people when you sin,
you pray toward this house and God will hear your prayer.
And when Gentiles hear the great name of Yahweh, they come, they'll come to,
you know, to this house, and God will forgive them.
And such.
But then, of course,
the temple is destroyed because of the people's rebellion.
So it's it's a recapitulation of the Adam and Eve story.
Really.
Right.
Israel as a whole rebels against God, just as Adam and Eve had done.
And God, God's presence is removed.
The we have this like vision in Ezekiel where,
that weird book where the
where the God's presence first Ezekiel shown this,
this vision of all these like weird abominations that are is really
creepy vision, all this crazy stuff that's happening in the temple, right?
People are,
people are sacrificing to all crazy, all sorts of other gods and stuff.
And then we had this vision where the chariot sort of lifts off,
and God's like, leaving.
And so the temple is destroyed because, and the people are sent into exile.
They're removed from God's temple space.
What’s really strange in the history of Israel.
Is that the vision of God dwelling
among his people,
in blessing, doesn't just disappear.
When Israel goes into exile, instead it actually gets ratcheted up big time.
And like the prophets Ezekiel, especially Ezekiel, but,
but the others as well speak of this day
when God would they all speak of this day when God would return to his people?
Isaiah speaks of this new coming, new Exodus, when God would, would
return to, to reign and to dwell with and to bless and forgive his people.
And Ezekiel, does the same thing by picturing a new temple.
And so that this is what
in Ezekiel, like 40 to 48, there's this huge vision,
of of this eschatological temple.
So he goes through as like chapters and chapters because he's like,
measuring, counting, doing all these measurements and all this kind of thing.
And some people have, like, mistakenly thought of this
as some literal new temple that's supposed to be built someday.
okay,
okay, this shows maybe the limitations of my understanding,
but that's the only way I've heard that section we're in.
Sorry. Ezekiel.
Where is Ezekiel 40-48. Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
So the only one I've ever heard is that.
Yeah. This is a new thing that's going to happen at some point.
There's going to be this new temple, blah, blah, blah,
and people actually go through it and have a very literal,
you know, working through all the dimensions and building plans for it.
Right.
So you're saying that's off.
No, no. Yeah.
That's misguided.
Okay.
So so why like well, for a couple reasons.
One, what he's speaking of is like right before it is this day,
he's he's speaking of this day when God would,
put his spirit within his people,
forgive them, inaugurate a new covenant with them.
It's this age, this this age of restoration.
All the prophets have.
Yeah, have in mind. This is this broad idea.
Someday God will cleanse us, forgive us, renew our hearts.
The new covenant, you know.
And then.
Or he pictures it in chapter 37 as the as resurrection, the valley of dry bones.
It's his vision of like the corporate resurrection, almost as though
Israel is dead and someday God's going to breathe new life into them,
you know, and and restore them and stuff.
And then the, the, the vision.
We are, of course, used to thinking that like
anything monotonous, must be there for technical reasons, right?
Yes. Because that.
Yeah.
Like immediately
I think brings sort of like instruction manual to mind or one of those things,
are you supposed to build this kit, you know, like just like blueprint.
Exactly.
So we're reading Ezekiel you know 40 whatever.
You know, 40-48 as some kind of instruction manual.
Right.
But I don't think that's the case for multiple reasons.
One, I think he's deliberately trying to evoke the,
the dimensions and the description and stuff
that were the kind of tedious description of the tabernacle back in the Torah.
He's he's doing that again.
But by by going on and on about this many cubits,
this many cubits,
you're supposed to go back and think, oh, yeah,
this is like when God told us to build the first temple.
So it's meant to point back to that.
But there's other there's there's really weird, fantastic features to this temple.
And as some scholars point out, there's no height.
It doesn't seem to be any height dimensions on this tabernacle.
So temple. So good luck trying to build it.
It's hard to say how high it should be.
But what's.
And the other reason?
The other thing is that,
when the temple was rebuilt and what we call the second temple,
no Jewish person thought that it was a it was the fulfillment of this,
at the time. Right.
Everyone was pretty bummed, right?
There's a I mean, there's the passage in,
in Ezra, right?
Yeah.
Where there's like, the new temples erected and there's people like.
Yeah, yeah, but there's a few, like, you know, 90 some year old guys there
that still have, like the first iPhone version.
And they're, they're scrolling back and looking at their photos
that they had taken of the first temple right before they got carted off to exile.
And they're like, look, there's no comparison, right?
This new, this new, this new thing is it's small, it's insignificant.
It's,
you know, it's anticlimactic.
Right?
So they didn't think that that's what it was.
I think really significantly at the middle of his vision.
So there's all these,
there's all these sort of measurements and this and that and the other thing.
But when it comes down to it, right at the,
in chapter 47, you get this, I'm just going to look at a couple of these
because what Ezekiel himself seems to be doing
is reflecting on Eden
as he's and weaving in some Eden imagery into his temple.
Yeah. Okay.
So like so chapter 47.
The angel brings Ezekiel back to the door of the temple,
and water is issuing from below the threshold of the temple toward the east.
The temple faced east.
All the temple's, it’s common,
and the water was flowing down from below the south end of the threshold.
And this is when you start thinking of water that's flowing out of the temple.
This itself may remind you
of the way that these rivers flowed out of the Garden of Eden.
Yeah.
So the Garden of Eden had this tree of life, this sort of
tree of immortality in the middle of it.
And it also had these four rivers that like,
symbolically,
sort of bring life to the whole world.
Right?
It's like at the middle of this, this,
this garden is the source of life that that goes throughout the whole world.
Right?
Here it's similar idea, but it's flowing out of the middle
of this new temple, this this new space where God, when God finally restores
his people, will dwell with them on this grander, permanent scale.
He goes through all these details to show this is going to be permanent.
It's going to be grand,
it's going to renew creation.
Okay.
And so then he keeps going and they talk about how they he keeps going in.
And verse three,
and the water becomes ankle deep and then it becomes
knee deep and eventually again so deep that you have to swim,
you know, the water from the temple just flows into this mighty river.
And then he says, I went back
and I saw on the bank of the river many trees on one side and on the other.
And he said to me, this water flows toward the eastern regions
and goes down to the... the sea.
And when the water flows into the sea, the water will become fresh.
So this water is like because it flows from God's presence, it
it brings life and makes fresh everything it touches.
Right?
It's it's it's this water that that enlivens the whole world.
Wherever the river goes, every living creature will, will live,
and there'll be many fish.
Fishermen will stand beside the sea.
I guess if you like to fish, that would be a that would be an awesome place to go.
And then, and then on the banks,
on both sides of the river, it will grow all kinds of trees for food.
Their leaves will not wither and their fruit will not fail,
but they will bear fresh fruit every month
because the water from for them flows from the sanctuary.
Their leaves will be for food,
and their fruit will be for food and their leaves for healing.
So it's this he's envisioning not a literal place that you can build.
You really couldn't build this if you tried.
But this era when when God would so come back to his people
and renew them, but also through his reign,
through his presence that's finally able to dwell fully
and permanently with his people, with renewed creation.
Right? So his ultimate day of restoration.
So then why all the tedious or extensive details
that are in like these eight chapters about the temple?
Is that just because it's trying to point us back to
what what we're seeing in in the Torah say about the Tabernacle or.
Yeah, what what's the reasoning there Yeah, I think it's trying to point us back
and and do something similar
to what Moses had done, like write out all these.
Look, let's let's think of it this way, this way, all these details.
Another reason is it's visionary literature.
And so, visionary literature
includes can sometimes include tedious details.
What's what from a modern Western perspective seems like tedious details.
Genealogies are another thing that feel very tedious to us,
but they don't feel tedious to some people in other cultures.
For some people that's like, wow, this is amazing.
I remember hearing a missionary talk about,
that this kind of unreached people group that he went to, and of course,
he is prone to just like the let's get rid of let's go over the genealogies.
But he starts reading them.
Everyone is like, this is wait, this is this is really great.
This is really important because it shows like who his dad was and his dad was.
Right. Yeah.
And so some of this cultural.
Right.
And we have other I mean, there's other examples of literature,
that something like revelation is written way after this time
of, of these great eschatological battles that are going to happen...
people wrote this, this text and they go into incredible detail,
mind numbing detail about how each battle,
each of these seven battles is going to take place
and what they're going to write on each of these banners. And,
like, who's going to win each one and all this?
And you're like, nuh. Right.
But that's, that's the way, you know, that's just the way it, the way it worked.
They were fine with that.
So and they didn't seem to think that this was a real
battle.
I mean, it's hard to be a predict.
I mean, they already
they knew they were writing it as though they knew the outcome of each one.
And yet going to all these details, it's a vision, right.
And you can do that.
So but I think one of the, the clinchers is that
it's and the reason I spent time on this was that is that this
this passage is what John's drawing on in his picture of, of the,
the age to come, the new creation.
So the way the New Testament authors appropriate this, John specifically
is not in a physical building, in keeping with the whole rest of the New Testament.
Right?
Because when Jesus shows up in John's gospel,
John opens it up in chapter one by saying,
the word was with God, the word was God, and the word became flesh, became human.
And then he says, and tabernacle among us.
And that that word is the same word group that's used the word,
it means tented or tabernacled,
literally it's it's related to the word that that is used of the tabernacle
in the Old Testament.
And then in the very next chapter of John, Jesus says, destroy this temple,
and in three days I'll raise it up and everyone's freaking out, and he's.
And then John gives an aside, but he was speaking of the temple of his body.
So in New Testament and the New Testament understanding,
it's Jesus that becomes that new temple space.
And then because because of Jesus for atoning work,
the spirit being out poured on believers
becomes makes all of his people a new temple,
which is what Ezekiel was saying about the spirit being poured out.
And then
finally in revelation will lead to the time and place when,
the entire new creation will be
God's temple space.
And Eden space.
Oh, that's really something. Yes.
Now, I still have to substantiate that by some details in this, but that's back.
That's the backdrop.
Yeah.
That's just so interesting because like
again the Ezekiel thing,
you know I've oh it feels like
I've heard people kind of getting derailed maybe a bit on the details
and trying to say this is a literal thing
like this is going to happen this exact way and etc., etc..
But I've never heard like the, the bigger picture
that you're outlining here, right?
That that that seems
to make what little more sense is that, you know, you know what I mean?
And I'm just kind of
and it fits with the whole the rest of the whole whole rest of the story.
Yeah, So both Old Testament and new.
So okay.
So, so yeah. Hit some of these details here.
Now. Now we're back in revelation 21 and 22.
Yeah.
I'll just go through a few of these details.
Right. So 21.
But then I And I think this is like the most
one of the most beautiful passages in the whole Bible.
And this is one of the things I love about the book of Revelation, the deeper
I get into it is, I realize it's such a brilliant genre to end the Bible with
because it forces you
to constantly be connecting and thinking about the whole rest of the Bible.
So it's like this awesome recap.
Then I saw a new heaven
and a new earth, and that line comes from Isaiah
when God's when Isaiah says, quoting Yahwey whatever says, I will.
I saw a new heaven and a new earth,
that God is going to create right?
For the first heaven in the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
And that this imagery of the sea in in the ancient world represents chaos.
It represents in some ways in Genesis one where, before God
sort of formed the earth, it says the earth was formless and void.
Darkness was over the face of the deep.
And this the waters are this chaotic,
yeah, chaotic thing.
And in some other,
some other literature, there may be, sea monsters or,
or other other beings that are, that represent the chaos of the sea, It
which you would see some of that in the Old Testament as well.
Right in, in Job with, you know, Leviathan, there's,
you know, some of these things. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Totally.
And and the ancient Israelites were not seafaring people,
so they're not the sea is not this place of great exploration for them.
It's this like it's a scary place.
So the sea is no more.
So there's not saying that in in the new on the new Earth,
there's not going to be any oceans necessarily.
I've heard people say, right.
No, no, that's that misses the point.
The point is that this,
God will once again will fully eliminate.
That source of chaos and and stuff like that.
And I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,
prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
And we're not going to talk about that imagery.
And then I heard a loud voice from the throne saying,
behold, the dwelling place, or the tent of God is
that same, so related to the same word, the,
that he
that John uses in John chapter one about Jesus,
becoming human and human, and tenting with us,
or it's the same word that's used in the Old Testament for the Tabernacle,
the dwelling place of God is with is with human beings.
He will dwell with them, and they will be his people,
and God himself will be with them as their God.
And that phrase is called the covenant formula.
And it occurs all over the place in Exodus and in the prophets.
Is this like, it's kind of like the very core
essence of their of their vows between God and Israel.
God says, I will be God to you in a unique way, and you will be a people to me.
And this is going to be the day when that will be fully true forever.
He will wipe away every tears
from their eyes, death will be no more, etc.
Verse ten, well, actually verse nine,
one of the angels came and said, come, I will show you the bride, the wife,
the lamb.
And this is one of these places in Revelation that you hear one thing
and then you turn around and what you see is different from what you hear.
So like, behold, the lion of Judah conquers.
And then John turns and he sees a lamb that looks like it had been slain.
Right.
Things like that or 144,000 are numbered the 12 times, 12 times a thousand.
And then John looks and he and he sees
a great innumerable multitude from every tribe, people and nation.
There, there 1 in 1 thing, one reality,
but spoken of in two different ways, because you have to put them together.
So the
bride is is also the city, and it has the glory of God, its radiance
like a most rare jewel, and has this wall with 12 gates,
and etc.
and the, the wall of the city has 12 foundations.
The 12 gates and the foundations represent the apostles and, and the,
and and Israel.
So it's this is this which,
which goes back to the imagery of why Jesus chose 12 apostles to begin with.
It's Jesus chose 12 because this represents
the fulfillment of the 12 tribes of Israel, right.
And what he was doing is renewing, restoring,
you know, bringing to completion the story of Israel,
which will, of course, include all the nations.
But it's that story continuing.
And then finally back to the so the temple imagery, the one who spoke
had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city and its gates and its walls.
So now we start thinking, oh, no, the angel with the measuring tape.
And that immediately gets us back to
Ezekiel.
Okay.
we're like, oh, here we go. Right.
But he's measuring the city this time.
Interesting, interesting.
Okay, okay, I think I'm tracking this is.
Yeah. I'm not I've not thought about it like this before.
and then they measure it.
And the city lies four square the length the same as its width.
Yeah. Okay. That's interesting.
And he measured the city with his rod 12,000 stadia.
And it's this 12 number again. Yeah.
Which for revelation is always means sort of the fullness of God's people.
It's Israel times a thousand or Israel times.
Israel times a thousand hundred and 44,000 is the same idea.
He also measured it's oh, and then he says it's length,
and its width and its height are equal. So it's a cube.
And you're like, why is that interesting?
Yeah I've always wondered about the cube that.
Yeah.
It's like it's not like
we're going to live in some sort of cosmic Rubik's Cube or something like that.
But again, I've, I've only ever heard people say,
oh yeah, this is going to be a real thing, these exact dimensions.
And it's going to happen in real. Exactly.
Just like this literally.
And you're saying we're we're kind of missing the point here.
That's actually really sad
because what John's trying to say is something way more profound.
So he's picturing this as this Israel x Israel x a thousand type of place.
In other words, this New Jerusalem, which we've just been told is the bride.
So it's it's all of God's people.
This, this news place where God and humanity will finally
dwell together is a cube.
And the only other cubic
space in the in the rest of the Bible is there's only one,
and it's the Holy of Holies,
Like, look interesting.
Okay. Oh.
Oh, yeah.
Okay, so keep going.
Keep going.
what what John is saying right here and then, so you think, okay, that's weird.
It's a cube
in angels measuring it like Ezekiel's temple.
This vision of when God would finally dwell with his people again.
And it's it represents the fullness of all God's redeemed humanity.
Israel times, Israel, whatever times, times a thousand.
And it's it's this.
It's the shape of the Holy of Holies.
And then he keeps going.
He measured the wall and keeps going.
The wall was built of Jasper.
The city is as a pure gold, clear as glass.
The foundations of the wall, where adorned with every kind of jewel.
And then he goes and list 12 jewels that make up the, the,
the found sort of the foundations of the city.
The first is Jasper, the second sapphire, agate, emerald, onyx, carnelian.
And it keeps going,
and you're like, what's the significance of these?
Yeah.
And what's, what's amazing is that these they're not exactly identical,
but they are significantly they're based on
the 12 jewels that the high priest wore on his breastplate.
Okay.
And, signifying the 12 tribes.
Right.
And then so, so right here, what John is trying to say is
when when God finally creates this new heavens and earth
and all things as, as Tolkien says and all things sad have come untrue,
God's
God will finally dwell with his people to such a degree
that his presence with them will be the Holy of Holies.
That like that, all of us together, living with him in this new creation.
The next line that that John says is, I saw no temple in the city,
for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the lamb.
There is no temple because the entire new earth
is the Holy of Holies, that God's presence is
off the charts permanently with his people.
That that that space where God really was
the place where only the high priest could go only once a year, only after all
the rituals were done is now the whole new creation.
God dwells with his people freely, fully, completely unlimited. The,
the breastplate
that used to used to be on the the, the high priests
with the
with the stones representing his tribe vision
that's baked into the foundation of the city.
Okay. Yeah, I'm starting to see that.
That's.
Wow. So are is there more pieces here about the Holy,
holy, Holy of Holies connection and the cube like.
Well, yeah, just keep going, I guess. Yeah.
So I saw no temple in the city because it's temple is the Lord
God the Almighty and the lamb finally
this finally.
There's no more need for a a different temple.
Now we're back to Eden, where we don't need a separate temple
because God, God's throne and the lamb,
just can dwell openly in it, just like they did in Eden.
I mean, just like God walked in the garden with Eden,
or just like the Holy of Holies.
That's the only one. That's that's the space, right?
The city also has no need of sun or moon
to shine on it, because the glory of God gives it light, and his lamp is the lamb.
So, like the whole New Jerusalem or the whole new creation,
again, this is symbolic. We're not saying we're not telling it.
Say anything about the physics or the astronomy of the new Earth.
But we're saying that like that glory,
that that pillar of fire that used to rest over the tabernacle
is now what fills the whole new earth with with light.
Right? God's glory is full.
Okay.
So the pillar of fire, like it's like walk me through that connection a bit
like is you just use that Old Testament imagery of,
of the pillar of Fire and you're saying, this is this is pointing us back to that.
And I think so,
at least at least it's reminiscent
that that connection isn't as, like, explicitly clear, but I think that's,
that's that's an image that you, you would naturally, you know, think of.
But isn't that part of the imagery where the cloud comes over the temple and,
and or, I mean, the tabernacle and says,
okay, God's presence is now in here, you know, in the tabernacle, right?
So maybe. Yeah. So there's sometimes there's this cloud.
But, but there's also be this fire.
Right.
And this fire was a thing that guided the people of Israel and protected them
by night and rested over the holiest place or whatever.
And, and it's God's and Holy of Holies presence
that's now filling the whole new creation with light.
Wow. Yeah.
By its light, the nations will walk, the kings will bring their glory into it,
etc. there's more stuff there.
But then,
because that's more,
Jerusalem related. I'm going to skip that.
Chapter 22.
The angel showed me the river of the water of life,
bright as crystal, which flowed from the throne of God and the lamb
through the middle of the street of the city.
Now, this is very clearly Ezekiel, the river of life.
Yeah.
So remember, that was a river that flowed out of the sanctuary
of the temple, right? And it gave life to everything.
This time
it's it's slightly tweaked because it is flowing.
It's the whole thing.
The whole new creation is
the temple is flowing directly out of from the throne of God in the lamb.
Right.
And that the throne of God and the lamb is,
is just directly like rejuvenating the world, giving life to the world.
And I think John probably means for the river of life, to represent the spirit.
Right.
This is the probably
a Trinitarian is very John right to think of water as in spirit.
And he in his gospel assuming this is written by the same, the same John,
the spirit and water are used interchangeably.
And so this water
flows from the throne of God and the lamb
through the middle of the street of the city,
and also on either side of the river, the tree of life,
with its 12 kinds of fruit yielding its fruit each month.
That's straight out of Ezekiel, the river of
the vision that we
that we read earlier from Ezekiel 48,
where the river of life flows out of this new temple,
and there are trees
that grow on either side, and they bear fruit every month.
Right.
But John here in revelation has a little bit confused.
And there is a little debate on this.
It it's possible he means to say trees.
There's a there's a bit of a debate, but assuming that that the singular
is the right reading, which I think it is,
he has the tree of life growing on either side of the river,
which is like super weird
and is like one of the reasons I say,
don't you know, you shouldn't try to make movies
or draw the book of revelation, right?
It works as a literary text and it makes terrible movies as we, as we all know,
but what John,
what what he's doing here is he's combining
the imagery from the Garden of Eden with Ezekiel's temple vision.
So Ezekiel, isn't it wild, Ezekiel has has trees
plural on either side of the river.
John says, yeah, yeah, I want to bring that in.
But also
I want to talk about the tree of life.
And so he has the tree of life growing on each side of the river.
That's that.
I've never thought about it quite like that.
How he is combining the.
Yeah. Eden It's Eden and Temple.
Yeah. Right.
And and he's saying that this ultimate day there will come this day when,
the Garden of Eden will be restored, all creation will be renewed, right?
All creation will be renewed.
God's presence will fully dwell with his people again.
The vision of Ezekiel for a world in which, God's direct presence
among his people, God can.
The whole earth can be the Holy of Holies, because sin is fully eradicated
and God's Spirit can once again bring life to all the world directly.
Right?
And the tree of life is again,
is again there is that finally, the tree of life is back.
Yeah.
And then he quotes the next line, the tree, the leaves of the trees were for
the healing of the nations.
That's straight out of Ezekiel with one tweak.
Ezekiel said, the leaves of the tree will be for healing.
And John adds of the nations.
Right.
Because in, in, in keeping with the way he's seen,
redemptive history play out.
Right.
That that it is this, this global thing
and then the next line, no longer will there be anything accursed.
And what finally, we think we think back to Genesis
three of the curse, and we have finally the undoing of the curse.
So bringing back of the Pre-Fall Eden.
Right?
But the throne of
God and the lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him.
They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads,
and yeah, and night will be no more.
They will need no light of lamp or sun,
for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever.
And there's so much more imagery there.
But I think what I want to just emphasize here is that
if you think of this as, as telling you that you're going to live in heaven
with Streets of Gold or something like that,
or you're saying, how is this cube shaped thing going to work?
You miss, I think the the really mind blowing,
beauty of what John is trying to say,
which is because Jesus gave his life for his people.
We are as Christians, as those who have been given
the spirit, who are little mini temples already
and who as corporately as churches are, are groups of God's temple presence.
That's what Pentecost, the the tongues of fire.
Okay.
Represent little, little, sort of pillars of fire on each person, right?
Oh, I've never thought of that, but that that makes a lot of sense.
And the rushing wind represents the blowing wind.
In Genesis, in Genesis, when God creates the world, right?
The Spirit of God hovered over the waters.
Its new creation, a new temple, it’s what Pentecost represents.
And so we're living in that a little bit.
But and John is saying the story ends with,
with this day when we get back to Eden, but better
when the real the physical creation
will be renewed, the curse will be will be removed,
the tree of life will be back, and temple will the whole, the whole.
Instead of temple, God's presence having to be confined to one space,
the whole temple.
Because of Jesus atoning work, the whole new creation
will be the Holy of Holies, and we will
you know, there was this passage in in Exodus
where Moses asks to see God's face,
and God says, no one can see my face and live.
And he gives them a glimpse of the back of his robe.
And right here,
revelation ends here saying they will see his face.
Right? And finally that.
And that's what the vision ends with.
And so
what John is back to the letter to the church is
John is calling his readers to be one who overcomes.
Right.
And right here in chapter
21 to the one who conquered, the one who conquers will have this heritage,
and I will be his God and He will be my son.
And that is what we're supposed to.
We're supposed to say, how do we live as people who belong?
Who will belong in a world where where that's true?
Where God's presence is so palpable?
Where the. When we feel the rays,
you know, warmth on our arms.
It'll be the rays of the glory of God.
So to speak. Right.
And he and he brings together all this imagery of temple
and, in Eden to, to portray this so imaginatively but really vividly.
I think.
Yeah.
That's, that's so interesting because it's
very easy with our style of reading the text.
You read something like that and it's like,
oh let's draw a blueprint of what that's going to look like.
You know let's get out
our, our, you know, our measuring sticks and how's it going to be set up.
And I guess it's not wrong.
But what you're saying here, there are so many more layers of meaning
that get lost if you go down that street.
Is that is that a fair way of saying it?
Absolutely. Absolutely.
And I think that I think that just kind of misses the boat completely.
Right.
Because again,
John is stacking images on top of each other that don't literally work together.
Right.
Remember, I mean, the the New Jerusalem, which he measures,
he just said it's the bride, the wife of the lamb.
Yeah, right.
That's a very good point.
It this is this is not meant to be read literally very explicitly.
I mean, no bride wants, wants this angel going and measuring her
and turning out her turning out to be a cube shape.
That's not that.
That's not cool.
I mean, I never thought of that. That's actually quite. Yeah.
Because I would have read
I mean, there's tons of stuff out there, you know, reading about, oh, heaven.
And, you know, what's it going to be like?
And they're taking stuff like this and putting it very literally,
like literal gold, literal.
This literally, you know, you're literally inside a cube.
There's like, okay, that's interesting. I guess.
But the problem that I ran into with that is eventually just kind of got burned
out with it because it's like, well, how is this relevant to me right now?
Like, it's not at all.
I mean, it's interesting to think about, I guess, like one day this
it might be like this, but again, what you're saying
you're going through, there's there's a lot of layers of meaning here.
And suddenly you’re pulling things out.
There's like, oh, wait,
this is actually like, this is immediately relevant to us right now.
And we're kind of missing that.
If we're relegating it to some literal thing
that's going to happen way down the line somewhere, And this will happen someday.
Right? I mean, it represents something that will happen someday.
Not not literally, but but really, I mean, there will be a renewal
of creation and God's presence will really dwell with his people.
And that's literal.
Okay.
It's just there's going to be comments, you know, he does have
was like he doesn't believe. Yeah.
And that's that's not what I'm trying to say. Right.
Yeah.
I'm trying to get the wording right
because you again you can miss so much of the beauty of how,
how is this relevant to me right now?
Which is strange because that is John's purpose of the book,
as evidenced by his exhortations throughout,
but especially through the seventh Letter to the Seven churches.
It's all about practical relevance.
This is actually supposed to be a super practical book.
It's very saying that it is because it's all about, look,
you're living in a world where,
you face persecution but also temptation.
And if you don't have this God's eye vision.
of the judgment that's to come, which we didn't talk about today,
and then the final sort of restoration that's to come,
you very well might capitulate.
Right.
You very well might end up with the beast name on your forehead instead of God's
name on your forehead, Back to that whole overcoming or, like, enduring to the end.
all about that. And so you're supposed to say, whoa,
that the theme of temple is coming to his fulfillment someday.
If I if I remain faithful to Jesus, he will
he will raise me from the dead.
And into a new earth
where, his presence with me is, forever holy of holies
and where everything, everything that the Spirit's
presence touches,
you know, there's life everywhere.
Yeah.
Or I get cast into the lake of fire.
I mean. Yeah.
And that is the super vivid contrast that we're seeing here at the end of the book.
Right.
So, okay, so as people are listening to this,
they're probably being like, okay, how can I learn more?
You know, where where can they go to dig into this?
More like these layers of meaning, for example, is this just
go and reread revelation and reread some of these other passages,
you know, like you were referring to Genesis and Ezekiel and things.
Yeah. What would you recommend people do from here?
There's a lot of good stuff, that people can do. So,
if you're
looking for resources, there's a bunch of good stuff, out there.
There's some some good, really good commentaries.
There's one that's fairly accessible by Craig Keener.
In the NIVAC series.
That's it's not like a huge, enormous one.
It's very good.
There is, there are some big ones out there.
That are that are a bit overwhelming. But,
another good resource that all around resource that I quite like
is the commentary on the New Testament use of the old.
It's this big fat book that goes through the New Testament and points out
and explains not all, but the majority of allusions to the Old Testament.
So there's a whole there's a, you know, chapter in there on the book of revelation
and that can be a good place to go to start with.
There's yeah, I mean, there's
there's a lot of stuff depending on what level you're looking for.
You know, but then also it's
I think, to be a to remember that what John is doing here
is to weave together the threads of, of the whole story of the Bible,
and he's doing it in this vivid and
apocalyptic way. Right.
That tells the same story as we read in the rest of the Bible.
And so if you can,
if you can come to the texts from that perspective and look for,
allusions to the Old Testament, sometimes alongside to help, like,
like, one of the resources I just mentioned,
that can be a good place to start, I think?
And then and then the challenge for all of us is
to not just understand what the text says, but to let it impact the way we live.
And that's that's the hard part.
that's the, that's and honestly that's kind of the real test. Right.
Because you can tear into, oh all these that layers of meaning and all that.
Oh that's really interesting. But then okay. Yeah.
But will it affect how I live. You know.
Yeah I think that's that that's the big piece there.
That, that was really something that I like.
The point you had there,
how John is weaving together all these threads of, of Scripture.
And I feel like,
at least for myself, I wish I would have heard some of that sooner
because it's so easy to get lost, you know? Yeah.
You just get lost in you again.
Go back to, metaphorically speaking, pulling out the measuring stick
and trying to draw the blueprint of the thing.
And it's like, well, there's a little more going on here.
This is this is fascinating.
I yeah, I really appreciate you taking the time to dive into a,
a specific chunk of revelation that was definitely in
some of the comments and feedback
we were getting from last time was like, wow, this is really good.
Can you go into the specifics of the book itself?
Is there anything else you'd like to add as we wrap this episode up?
I don't think so.
I better not, because once you start with revelation, there's no stopping it.
Just sort of everything just sort of keeps going.
Yeah, there's there's a lot there.
Well, hopefully
this is encouraging the listeners to pick up the book of revelation again,
give it another read. And, and dig into this more.
Hopefully that's the result. So yeah.
Yeah. Really appreciate you taking the time to share. This has been fascinating. Thanks!
Thanks for listening
to this episode about revelation with Paul Lamicela.
If you enjoyed this conversation, go check out the earlier episode
we did with him on how to read the Book of Revelation.
That's linked in the description down below.
And of course, all our content
is available on our website at anabaptistperspectives.org.
Thanks again for listening, and we'll see you in the next episode.