Today.

I define courage is taking a necessary risk and trusting God with the outcome.

So it has to be a necessary risk.

It has to be something that you risk in order to have courage.

You got to have a little bit of fear to have courage, right?

A little bit of, you know, I'm not sure what's going to happen.

You

Are you ready to discover how courage can transform your life?

Welcome to this episode of Seek, Go Create the Leadership Journey,

where we're joined by Anne White, founder and CEO of Courage for Life.

Anne is not only an author and speaker, but also a visionary

leader who has dedicated her life to empowering individuals through

spiritual and emotional health.

Anne is going to share her journey of creating courage for life.

A ministry aimed at providing resources like the first all female

voiced audio Bible and various study guides that help people, including

thousands of incarcerated men and women, find their God given courage.

With her recent publications with Tyndall House Publishers, Anne

continues to equip believers to lead courageous lives through practical.

Biblical applications and welcome to seek go create.

Thank you, Tim.

I should say welcome again, because we started this and I realized it

didn't have the recorder on and I am okay with everyone knowing that I messed up.

And, we had mentioned that, she's coming to us from the town I

was born in Marietta, Georgia.

So, anyway, very exciting to talk to you and.

We just bump into each other.

We're out and about somewhere on the square there at a nice restaurant

there in Marietta, Georgia.

And, and I ask you what you do, what's your answer when somebody asks you that?

I think the first one word answer I would give you Tim would be

discipleship because the heartbeat of everything that we do and that I do in

the ministry revolves around discipleship and just have a heartbeat, for people who

have a desire to grow in their knowledge and understanding of God and his word.

All right.

So that I'm veering off my questions right out of the gate because you brought

up a word that it means a lot to me.

I at times get excited about it.

I at times get a little upset about it because it's thrown around

a little bit in church world.

But how do you define discipleship?

to me, discipleship is a relationship where one believer and

another believer joined together to help one another, maybe one sided more

so on one side, there's a more mature believer that helps a younger believer.

But even that mature believer needs to continue to be discipled because with the

world in which we live, the distractions we come across every single day, we need.

Somebody, in there with us in the trenches So it's coming together as believers and

growing in our knowledge and understanding and our relationship with the Lord.

yeah, I'll let you continue.

I was going to say, I don't like to be, I, it's going to come across

critical of, some church structures.

I think we talk about this word a lot, but being a leadership guy and all

the things that I do, I don't really think in general, we, Talking we,

maybe you can, you're going to drill down and give us some tools and some

resources that'll help us with this.

But I think we don't necessarily do a good job of that.

Would you agree with that or disagree in

Yes.

In general, I would agree.

And that was actually, we, you and I are on the same page with that.

Cause that's exactly what I was getting ready to say.

We don't necessarily do a great job with, especially in the churches.

so often we are more focused on leading people to Christ,

which is extremely important.

We want to bring more people into the body of Christ.

But if we don't equip them to stay there and to grow in their relationship,

then we leave them floundering.

That's something that I personally experienced.

I was saved at 19 and really didn't get discipled.

It was kind of like, okay, now what I knew I felt different.

I felt the Holy spirit's presence.

I felt that something was different within me.

But I didn't have the tools.

I wasn't equipped to know how to walk my journey out and, and continue

to grow in that relationship.

I really allowed myself to remain stagnant, for many, many years, really

until my early forties, because I didn't have someone come alongside me

at the time and say, Hey, let's talk.

Let me show you how you can really get to know the Lord and how having a personal

relationship with him can truly empower your life in ways that you may not

even be able to imagine at this point.

what did this is, this is good because it kind of gets into

a little bit of your journey, which you know, I like to talk about what

did that you use the word stagnant.

What did that?

stagnation from 19 to your early 40s.

What were some of the results of that?

What spun off or what happened in your life because you didn't have

that discipleship role early on?

Anything come to mind when I bring that up?

Absolutely.

I would say that I continue to operate.

In my fears instead of in my faith, I don't think there are any of us that

escape our childhood without some scars.

Some are our wounds are deeper than others.

And so a lot of that baggage that I brought through my childhood and through

my teenage years, turned into some.

Insecurities and fears, fear of abandonment, fear of failure, fear of

rejection, you can sit here and name all kind of fears that we can face on

a daily basis, but if we don't have the tools to operate in faith over fear, Then

we let those fear make our decisions.

So if you go into a situation where you're offered an opportunity or God

provides an open door for you to walk through an opportunity and you don't

feel like you're qualified, you're going to let the fear of failure, keep you

from even walking through that door.

So for that 2021 years or more, I really, I think I limited myself and what God

could accomplish in and through me because I wasn't letting go of that baggage.

It also affects our marriages, how we raise our children, our

friendships and relationships.

So not only does it affect our relationship with the Lord,

but this baggage that we carry around affects everything else.

And so that's why I've dedicated, the rest of my life to helping people get rid of

the obstacles, get rid of that baggage.

Help us to figure out how we're going to overcome those insecurities,

those boundary issues, those coping mechanisms that we really need to

drop and instead replace them with a healthy relationship with the Lord and

a healthy self identity and self esteem.

Were you, during those 20 something years, were

you around a church world?

I, I really do dislike the word backslide because it's such an,

anyway, I don't think it makes a lot of sense truthfully in many ways, but.

Were you around a a community of church people?

Were you doing, were you going through some of the motions and things

that religion kind of tells us is you're doing okay, or you're, you're

successful because you do blank.

So what were you doing spiritually during that time might be a better way.

I,

answer because we did go to church.

We may not go, you know, every Sunday, but we would go at

least a couple times a month.

And, we had a great relationship with our church.

You know, we would, we knew the pastor, well, knew his wife and, we were always

supportive and, and love the Lord.

But we brought in, I would bring my Bible to church with me and.

When I would bring it in, you know, you're going to your church service, you

go into your Sunday school class, and they're going to teach on something, a

topic, and you're going to go into church.

They're going to generally teach on either a passage or a topic.

And you're going to look at that passage and you're going to listen

to the pastor and take some notes.

And then you're going to close your Bible up, at least for me.

That's what I think the majority of Americans do.

And that's what I did for many years.

And you leave church and you go, God, I feel really good after going to church.

You know, you might be arguing with your kids or your husband on the way,

but it's like, okay, we needed that.

We needed to kind of calm the temperature down, just reset our minds.

That's great.

But then the.

Bible goes back on the shelf and we go on with our lives

until Sunday rolls back around.

And I think that's where we miss out on that relationship.

I know today, if I don't start my day in God's word, my day doesn't go as well.

You know, I'm more apt to get frustrated or angry or, you know, just, down about

something, but when I started in the right frame of mind and I start out in a

spirit of thankfulness and, you know, just speaking to the Lord or reading his word

and being encouraged, other things that may be bad or negative can just bounce

off me a little easier during the day.

Amen.

the thing you described, your church experience, the, the

words, warm, fuzzy glow came to mind when, when you were saying it.

And, and I was similar.

I've, I've I've.

Sort of been on this odd two steps forward, maybe a half step back

through two steps forward, half step back growth through a lot

of channels and things like that.

it is interesting that you talk about, I mean, the way I worded it,

it's religion versus relationship.

Religion is the thing that you, you even gave me the numbers.

You said you would go to church about two out of four weeks, about half the time.

And you were supportive, which what that, what that tells me is

you, you probably gave your money.

What happened that caused you to develop a deeper relationship at the age of 40?

Was it just you decided or was there an event in your life that

you said, I got to get my act together and connect with my creator.

Yes.

And that's usually what it takes.

It usually takes the Lord letting us get to the end of ourselves before we

go, okay, God, I do need you because if things are rolling along good and

our careers or families or marriages or whatever, everything's good.

We don't really need the Lord.

And that's a sad thing to say, but, we don't think much about him,

you know, cause everything's okay.

But when things get a little rough, and we start to hurt and we start to, you

know, Really deal with those insecurities.

So you ask what happened?

So I would say, in my twenties and thirties, I was raising a family,

you know, things were up and down.

Things were good and bad, but I was so focused and so busy.

I'm a jeweler by trade, so I'm, a gold and silver Smith.

So I'm an artist in that respect.

And so I had my own studio that I was, you know, would work in.

And put things in art galleries and so forth.

And so then raising, two boys, that are just.

Full of energy, nonstop.

you know, so it was all about just keeping things going in that realm, but as they

got older and, you know, relationships always go through their bumps in the road.

And we were going through one, my husband and I, and I probably ran our 26

year of marriage, something like that.

And we're celebrating 38 this year, but it was just that time period, you know,

that you've been married for a long time.

You're going to hit some rough spots, especially if you're not really kind

of together in close walking with the Lord, because, you know, you're

both going different directions.

So long story short, I kind of hit.

The end of myself, what I didn't realize that what was causing a lot of my

insecurities, a lot of my fears, a lot of my, hurt and self condemnation, those

kinds of things that were going on.

Was the baggage I was carrying around from childhood.

And so I talk about this in my book, courage for life.

I describe really kind of that boiling point.

And when it happened, I was actually in Israel with my oldest son.

And I talk about being there on our church trip and just breaking down and telling

the Lord I was ready to end my marriage.

I was ready to give up on everything, but I just said, God,

I don't know what to do anymore.

I finally just came to the end of myself and said, I've tried everything

I know to do to fix this person and fix this person and fix this situation.

And God finally just said, you know what?

I just want you to get honest.

I would walk through church at that point in time.

By that time I was in my early forties.

I was actually teaching, God's word in church.

So I was actually teaching an in depth sermon.

I had began to study the Bible and that happens a lot of times.

God began to reveal a lot of things that needed to be dealt with.

So I hit rock bottom and I reached out.

I just cried out to the Lord and God said, I just want you to come

clean and be transparent about the struggles that you have.

You know, don't walk through the church doors like you've been doing for 25 years

pretending that everything is perfect.

That we've got the perfect family.

We've got the perfect life.

You know, I'm a great little Bible teacher when in reality I was falling

apart at the seams and a lot of it had to do with things that I'd brought

in from my childhood and insecurities and shame based issues that I'd

brought in from my teenage years that happened prior to me being saved.

So one of the things, this is a common thing that we

kind of get to a place where we.

Either can't or won't, or two by four to the head, or

financial collapse, or health, I mean, you know, and the stories are, they're,

they're not great stories, but fortunately here we, we get the rest of the stories,

sort of, to quote Paul Harvey there.

What I'm curious about is let's go pre to the time I wrote down you were in

your 40s, 40, 41, something like that.

Let's go pre, tell me how you were defining and looking at success.

Sounds like you had a successful business and that is really cool

that you're a jeweler working with gold and silver and stuff like that.

all about reclaiming.

but, Yeah.

and then to contrast that, I'm going to ask you to talk more about how you

define and look at success now and today.

So back up a little bit and tell me what success you skirted it a little bit there.

You know, you talked about, you know, we're perfect family.

This is the way we do and all that, but give me a little bit more on what you

were doing to measure success before that transition occurred before that,

perception.

It was probably more outer perception.

How did we look as a family?

cause you go back behind closed doors and you just deal with whatever you're dealing

with as human beings, you know, and you think I'm probably the only one dealing

with this when in reality, we're not.

We're all dealing with our own, humanness and our own junk,

that we collect throughout life.

How did I define success?

success in that realm was having children that, would.

graduate from high school and that would, go on to have some careers

and have a family of their own.

But, you know, I felt like I needed to be the ones to prepare them for that.

Not God, you know, it was all about what I could do.

Success was what I was capable of accomplishing.

I'm a type A personality.

I'm a perfectionist.

And so I will go after it, whatever I feel needs to be done, I'm gonna get it

done and I'm gonna do it with excellence.

But it was all in my power and my might not with asking the Lord.

So today what I define success and, and we'll talk about courage too in a minute

because I define courage differently now, what I define success as now is.

What God has called me to do and how he's called me to lead my family

and incorporate him into my life.

My life is much more peaceful, joyful, less ups and downs, less rollercoasters.

When I follow the Lord's calling on my life, when I go to him

and ask, you know, God, is this really what you want me to do?

When I pray and I'm in communion with him, then.

I can go and walk out the other pieces of my life with more peace and more

confidence, knowing that God's got this no matter what happens on the other

end or the outcome that God knows.

And it somehow will all work.

You know, Romans 8, 28, all things work together for good for

those who love the Lord and are called according to his purposes.

We follow his purposes.

It's going to go better.

Doesn't mean it's going to go perfect, but.

It's going to go the way the Lord wants it to go.

And, and I've read, my wife and I actually had a long

discussion about Romans 828 just this morning, by the way, out back in our

little sitting area behind the RV here.

And we read a lot of the scriptures that lead up to Romans 828.

there.

And one of the things that I've done often is I plucked that

scripture out and I, this is, Hopefully years ago, not as much now.

And i've tried to force it into my desire to control my

situations and define it in my way.

You mentioned your type a and all that I get it both my wife

and I are in that category also.

And so controlling our world and our situation is kind of baked into us.

So relinquishing that control, you know, we're going to talk about courage here

shortly, but for a personality like mine and yours, that is a lot of Courage.

I mean, I don't like giving up control.

What was that like for you when you started having to realize, you know, if

it is to be, it's up to me is not working

anymore.

You know, it was freeing.

It was very freeing.

Okay.

Because someone will hear that and go, Oh, I could just decide when I'm 41 years

old and I'm free and freedom is there.

I want to make sure we're being honest here.

absolutely.

and I would just encourage anyone to, read my book and you'll get the whole

story because there's just not enough time today to cover the whole thing.

But I would say this, I'll just give you a snippet.

Being in Israel, I said, okay, God, I can't do this anymore.

I don't even know what to do, but I'm going to give it to you, Lord.

And God said, I want you to write down the reality of your situation

on a piece of paper, and I want you to take it to your pastor.

And so here I am, I'm a Bible teacher.

I'm teaching two classes.

discipling at that point, other Sunday school teachers and

pretending that everything is great.

and then I've got to go in and I've got to say, but no, I'm honestly,

my world is falling apart and I'm ready to divorce my husband if, you

know, just because of all the issues that are compiled through the years.

So, it was more about me and I didn't realize it.

I really was putting everything else.

off on everybody else.

It's, it's his problem, her problem, their problem.

And I don't know how to fix them when in reality I needed to fix myself.

So after I did what the Lord called me to do the next day, I think I

hid from my pastor and his wife for, the first six hours of our touring.

Because You feel exposed, you feel, but you know, God didn't

call us to walk this journey alone.

He doesn't want us.

Matter of fact, if he wanted us to just be, you know, a lot of times

we'll say, God's all I need just me and God, that's all I need.

In reality, that's not how God designed us.

He gave, he had Adam, Adam was in the garden.

Adam wouldn't have been deceived.

Maybe he was deceived by Eve, but he took it.

And so he and God had this beautiful communication relationship and they're

in, you know, God's right there.

And God said, you need a help mate, you need a companion.

And so he made Eve and so we are made for relationships doesn't

have to be husband and wife.

It can be best friends.

It can be mentors.

It can be all of the above.

God says, seek wise counsel.

I had that feel of freedom, but I also had that feel of fear of other people knowing

my struggles and my insecurities and the difficult things going on in my life.

I thought they were supposed to remain hidden because that's what

a good Christian does, right?

So everything really changed for me after coming back from that trip.

Not only did I start going into counseling, I found a godly mentor,

counselor, pastor, He's, he's more of a, he's got a theology degree, but

great friend of my husband and I now.

but you know, I spent in depth intense counseling to try and deal and

unpack some of the childhood issues, but I began teaching differently.

I would go into my classes and instead of just teaching from the Bible and

preaching, what God's word has to say and not actually You know, letting

it soak into my being, even though I knew what it said, I couldn't

receive everything, because of some of the junk that I was holding on

to, I began to be more transparent.

I began to open up about my struggles.

I began to say, you know, Hey, we all are broken.

We're broken people in one way or another, and we're struggling.

And I began to have people that had been in my classes for years, began to come up

to me and share their hurt and their pain, things that they were hiding themselves.

and they would thank me for giving them that privilege

and that open door for being.

Just honest about my own struggles.

And so I really have made it my life's journey to say, we just need

to be real with one another and help one another in this journey of life.

We weren't meant to walk it alone and we weren't meant to walk it without God, but

we need each other and we need the Lord.

And, there's ways for us to be able to heal and move forward.

I want to.

I love words like transparency, vulnerability, even though I'm not

necessarily wired nor good at those.

It's something that, I don't know if it's the tail end of the generation

I'm from or whatever, but it's like, I don't like for people to see me bleed.

You know, I don't like that thing.

But, but before we go into more of that, cause I think that's

a good courage conversation.

It's fascinating to me that you were in Israel when this occurred.

And my wife and I have been on quite a journey geographically that's somewhat

been part of our spiritual and, Emotional and, and all of that journey.

In fact, one of the most significant times of our life, we were absolutely

as far away from Atlanta, Georgia and Georgia, where we grew up as possible.

We were down on the South Island of New Zealand in a little town called

Pleasant Point for three months.

And And we felt as if even the Lord told us, I've got you as far away from

where you were brought up and raised.

And there's some things that I need to purge from the way you were brought up.

And then even spoke some things about some spiritual things that hang over that.

religious Bible belt with racial issues and all that goes on there.

We don't want to go down that path, but

But

how significant was it that you were in Israel?

Does that mean anything?

The geography of it?

You weren't, weren't in your home, but you were in Israel.

was about as close to the Lord.

want to say physically, but yeah, kind of fit

Yeah.

as I could be in my mind.

I was walking on Holy ground.

And so I could not have been more filled, in my spirit and more excited

to be there with my oldest son, who was in his early twenties at the time.

and yet.

God wouldn't let me go.

Without making a change.

you know, I love the title of your podcast, Seek Go Create,

because that's where I was.

I was seeking the Lord and he was telling me to go and he was getting ready to

create something in me that I had no clue.

I mean, no clue where he was going to take it.

And we just celebrated a few weeks ago.

It was our 10th anniversary of Courage for Life.

So this year we're celebrating 10 years of Courage for Life.

And it has been amazing what God has accomplished just in these 10 years.

and you'll see, as we talk a little bit more about, everything he's done

through Courage for Life, it is so not anything that I could have ever dreamed

of or done, had I not had been willing to just open my hands and say, God,

Just send me where you're going to send me, tell me what to do and create in

me the life that you want me to lead.

And I think the reason he's been on such a bullet train is what I

like to call it with my life and my ministry and this ministry.

Is because I waited so long , he was like, okay, is it time yet?

You know, are you ever gonna surrender and let's just do this.

so I've been very blessed.

it's been an adventure.

I remember Kay Arthur saying one time, I was sitting under her teaching and

she said, when you get into God's will, life becomes an adventure.

I can attest to that.

It's not always easy.

It's sometimes very frightening, but it's definitely an adventure when

you go with it and, pursue his will.

I was brought back to the word peace and living at peace and

adventure, but I want to pause that because I think this is a good time

for me to ask about, about courage.

And I'm sitting here looking at a list of some of the things you've created.

I'm sure it's not all, but we've got the courage for life, which is the ministry.

Courage for Life Study Guide, obviously the book that you've got,

Courage for Life, Courage for My Life Workbooks, Courage for Life Study

Bible for Women, Courage for Life Study Bible for Men, Courage for

Life Female Voiced Audio Bible App.

Obviously, that word, Courage.

Courage means quite a bit to you.

Talk to me about the word courage and then maybe lead into how

that became what I look at.

It seems sort of foundational for the ministry and the organization.

So courage.

So I thought as a, I always thought I was courageous.

Because I felt like I was this big, strong person and could do

anything that I needed to do.

Right?

As a kid, I loved roller coasters.

I wasn't afraid of anything.

we had six flags over Georgia, right?

And we had the Scream Machine when we were growing up.

That was our big wooden roller coaster.

Well, I'll never forget the time that they turned the entire car around.

So you were riding backwards because I'd always ride in the first car.

And so I was one of the first ones to get on the Scream Machine when they

had turned it around and you're in the back car, but you're the first car

going down the hill backwards, right?

No fear at all.

Now it's different today, but that's how I used to define courage today.

I define courage is taking a necessary risk and trusting God with the outcome.

So it has to be a necessary risk.

It has to be something that you risk in order to have courage.

You got to have a little bit of fear to have courage, right?

A little bit of, you know, I'm not sure what's going to happen.

And so today I define that.

And so that was what happened that night in Israel.

God's telling me to write down the reality of my life.

You know, I'm going into church pretending that I'm, and wasn't

pretending my heart was right, but I was hiding the hurt and the brokenness

and the real person that was inside.

And so now I had to uncover that real person to someone who was.

A mentor, you know, someone I obviously looked up to, a pastor of a large

church of 17, 000 members at the time.

It was like, yeah, that was, that was hard.

That took courage.

And so as I began walking through those steps and then went into counseling

and began walking through additional steps of unpacking the things that

I'd been toting around the baggage and hurt and, self condemnation and stuff.

It took a lot of courage to do that.

And then it took courage to birth that ministry because I had

never spoken in front of a group.

I had never written anything in my life.

I didn't even really like to read anything other than the Bible at that point.

And so I really had no clue what God was going to do.

But I remember saying to the Lord, my God, my hands are open.

I feel you calling me.

My heart's always been for hurting people.

You're calling me to reach hurting people.

God, just tell me how and I'll do it.

And as he began to say.

write this book and talk about how you worked through your issues,

how you overcame your issues.

And that became the seven steps to courage.

as he began to do that, I just began to say, yes, as he began to offer me

opportunities within a year or so, after I went into ministry, To go on television,

a Christian television program called the Christian view and also work with a

local TV network, with their program being a host on their Christian TV program.

And I'm going, I'm not qualified.

I'm a little jeweler that sits behind a desk and creates things that way.

I'm not out in the public, but God said, this is where I want you.

And I would pray about it.

And he'd say, go.

And I'd say, okay, what's the worst thing that could happen?

But courage at that point became.

Taking that necessary risk because I knew God had opened that door.

I knew he was calling me to do something, but I needed to trust him with the outcome

because even if I fell flat on my face, he was going to do something with it.

He was going to either help me to grow in the process.

He was going to use it to minister to somebody else.

And so that's been my life these last, gosh, started in 2012,

the ministry birthed in 2014.

And so here we are 10 years, 12 years later.

And, it's amazing, what he's done for me.

I wouldn't be here talking with you today had I have not said yes

and had the courage to simply trust him with whatever he had in store.

I want to keep going down that path because I want to talk

about some prison ministry and the digital ministry and things you have.

But question just popped in my head when you brought up your business

and we've got a lot of people that are in the marketplace ministry.

And so I guess the question I'd like to ask is what's.

Gone on in your, we'll call it your profession.

See, I don't separate out.

I was saved at a business conference, so I don't separate out that stuff.

But what what can you tell me about your business life in the last 10 or 12

years while this ministry Project has been growing, building and expanding.

and because someone would say, wow, doesn't seem like she's probably

got enough time to do well at both.

Not at all.

No, I can tell you that I have not, I've stepped into my studio.

I've done a few little repairs on some things throughout the years, these years.

But in the last 10 years, I have not created any jewelry whatsoever.

I gave it, I've set it to the side and I'm very blessed.

my husband, He has an amazing story, but I've known him since high school

and he has always been a hard worker.

He birthed a business in his early twenties and has

been extremely successful.

And so just so God would have it, he sold a piece of his business, back when

God was calling me to birth a ministry.

And so we were in a position to invest in that ministry because it

takes a good bit to get a website up, to get your logo, to get everything

incorporated, so forth and so on.

Cause I knew God, I'd been in ministry.

I was ministering to people, but God was calling me to birth a nonprofit.

I knew it.

I couldn't get it off my heart and my mind.

I knew what he was calling me to do.

I was very blessed that my husband was in a position and we were in a

position at that point to invest in this and to really put the money up

front to get the ministry off the ground the first two or three years.

And we also had dear friends that believed in, you know, what we were doing.

I still didn't know exactly what it was all going to entail.

But they believed enough in me and what God was calling us to do,

that they would come alongside us and partner with us in this 501c3.

So to answer your question, no, I had to give it all up.

And I knew I had no problem giving it up because that's what

the Lord was calling me to do.

And I was blessed to be in a situation where my husband is

the breadwinner of the family.

He can take care of us very well and also, help me pour into not only emotionally

and time wise into this ministry, but also pour financial resources into the

ministry to help get it where it is today, which we are, you know, we may have been

a 75 percent donor in the beginning.

Today, we're able to be about a 20, you know, 15 to 20 percent donor.

We have foundations and Great partners that come alongside us,

and believe in what we're doing.

typically when someone has success in a career like you did,

their identity is somewhat tied to it.

And you said you put that aside.

Were there any, I.

Identity issues, I don't want to say issues with that, none at all.

I mean, what, you know, I mean, because, because you even said it earlier on,

I'm, I'm a jeweler, you know, you said what did, but it sounds as if

it's been a little while since you've actually hands on done that, correct?

Yeah, I can pick it back up today, but God has called

me to other things and I have found such joy, so much joy in the

things that he's called me to do.

And there's such a great reward.

I really feel like I'm leaving a legacy.

when we.

First we're birthing the ministry.

It was okay.

What's the name going to be?

And you asked me about courage.

I'll go ahead and roll there.

If you're good with that, where did that come in?

Okay, so we're going to birth a ministry.

What's the name going to be?

And I'm praying about it and thinking about it and so forth and so on.

And I was able to acquire and white.

com.

And so I had, who, someone who had become a good friend who I'd met.

It's, Phil and Kathleen Cook, Cook Media Group out of California.

And I'd met them at a conference, the National Religious

Broadcasting Conference.

as I was beginning To brand this ministry, he wrote a book called one big thing and

he talks about how, if we were living in this noisy world, there's so much social

media, so much coming at us at all times.

we need to figure out specifically what unique message he has given

us to share with the world.

And so the first thing that I had a lot of people say was it needs to be and white

ministries because, you've got in white.

com and you know, everybody wants to follow a person.

And I understand that, but I never felt the Lord calling me.

To make it and white ministries, no matter what I had.

And I said, that doesn't feel right to me.

I know that's not what God's calling.

And here's why I want, I wanted to leave something that could be left

behind that could go on indefinitely.

It doesn't end with me.

It's not about me.

This is about what the Lord has called all of us to do.

And so bringing others into the fold and.

Becoming courage for life.

When Phil asked me, it was a fifth, my first phone call

was a 15 minute phone call.

and my husband was in the car.

we're getting ready to go ride bikes.

And so I'm taking this phone call.

he says to me, he said, I want you to, we're going to talk again.

He said, but I want you to pray about and think about if you had to define your

message in one word, what would it be?

I knew right away what it was courage.

I had the courage to be transparent.

I had the courage to say yes and not know what the outcome is.

I had the courage to do things like go on television or speak in front

of groups that I'd never done before.

And it was only because I felt like the Lord was giving me the

courage to accomplish his will.

My relationship with him is what gave me the courage.

And then shortly after that, as I was writing the book that God told

me to write, that I said, no, I don't want to write a book, I don't

have any desire to write a book.

Then I said, okay, Lord, if I'm going to write a book, I want to

write the book that I needed to read.

A book that speaks to not only my life journey, but helps people have

practical steps that they can take.

And as I was coming up with the steps that I took.

To go from fear based decision making to faith based decision making.

God gave me those seven practical steps and they go along with the word courage.

So it's evident that was what he had in store for me.

That is my word.

I'm okay with being the courage lady.

So call me what you will.

it's all good.

It's fascinating because a lot of people go through

that wrestling match, branding and, you know, using your name.

And I, I.

Do I do think there are times that it makes sense.

I have people all the time sending me messages on LinkedIn.

Let me, what's going on with your personal brand.

Can I help you with your personal brand?

and I finally answered a few of them back.

I said, listen, I hate to say, I don't really give a rip about my personal brand.

It's not, it's not about that.

I do want to say though, how cool that you interacted with Phil.

He was a guest here at seek, go create back in spring of 2020.

So very cool that you had someone of his caliber to help you with that could mentor

disciple a little bit along the way there.

That was, that was very cool.

Give me, there's a few things I want to do here.

I'm watching our time.

You see, you mentioned there are seven steps.

I don't know that we have time to go through all seven unless you can rattle

them off real quickly, but I'd love for you to, with one of them that you just,

either the Holy Spirit tells you, you need to spend a little bit of time on,

or you feel as if it's on your heart.

Just, give us a little bit of that.

And then I want to finish up with a little bit more of the other ministry

projects that y'all have going on.

So give us the seven or one of the seven or both.

Uh, in the

I'll do it I think that I can.

So the C step commit to change.

Unless we make a commitment, God's calling us to change something every day.

It may just be our attitude, but unless we commit and say, okay, Lord, I give in,

I'm going to do this good, bad, or ugly.

that's where it starts.

It begins with a commitment.

That you're going to make that change.

O is overcome obstacles.

Satan's going to throw all sorts of obstacles in our way.

They might be fear of our own fears.

They might be other people don't want us to make those changes.

There's a lot of things that, that can come in and those obstacles.

So that's overcome obstacles.

We have to identify them and figure out how we're going to overcome them.

You is uncover your true self.

We need to uncover who God says about who he says we are.

Quit worrying about what the world says we are and quit

believing even what we say we are.

Sometimes we have our own worst negative view of ourselves.

So that you step uncover your true self is extremely important, no

matter who we're working with.

the R step.

This is an important one.

Replace worldly lies with scriptural truth.

the world's going to throw at us all sorts of lies, even ones that

we might believe are biblical.

But if we don't know the scriptures, if we don't know God's word.

We can't deny those lies.

So we've got to know God's word, replace the lies and move forward from there.

We get to the a step.

Now this was the most difficult for me except the things you cannot change.

I couldn't change other people.

I thought I could, but I spent 20 some odd years trying.

I can't change them.

There's one person I can change and that's me.

But when I change myself, things around me automatically change.

People take notice and things begin to change.

So accept the things you cannot change.

You can't change your past, but you can change your future.

Change the things you can.

And then the G step, grasp God's love for you.

We have got to truly understand.

God loves us unconditionally, unfathomably.

His love is so beautiful.

We've got to embrace that and it gives us great peace and joy.

And then here's our good final step, which is embrace a life of grace.

This is our forgiveness.

And this is one that I felt was really important because for many

years I blamed my dad but, I blamed him for a lot of the issues that I

had, a lot of the baggage that I had.

though I loved him, he was a very broken man.

And so, but it wasn't until.

After he passed away, after I wrote the book and after I was talking with

some family members that I realized what a tragic childhood I never knew.

I knew he was the baby of nine, grew up in inner city Charlotte, had an alcoholic

father, but I didn't know anything else.

And so it was embracing grace.

And this is where we work, whether it's with an inmate in prison or whether

it's with someone across the world where we're discipling digitally.

Or right here in our own neighborhoods, you know, with people that are hurting.

We talk about embracing that grace piece, because if we don't identify

and forgive those who have wounded us, we're just going to continue to

carry that hurt, that bitterness, that unforgiveness around with us.

And it's going to continue to hinder us from all that God's called us to do.

So setting healthy boundaries is something I talk about a lot in the book.

It's woven all throughout.

I talk about a real holistic approach to our health, you

know, to our physical, emotional, relational, and spiritual health.

They all work together.

And we talk about that in the book.

but that forgiveness piece, that releasing.

Of that pain and that hurt helps so many inmates and helps so many people

across the world be able to move forward.

Now that doesn't mean I don't need to set a healthy boundary with someone

who's toxic or someone who continues to hurt me, but I can move forward.

let go of that pain and recognize that person as a broken person and forgive

that person and move forward myself.

So that's the seven steps to courage.

Probably my least favorite is accept the things that cannot change.

My most favorite, really all of them, but the R step replace

worldly lies with scriptural truth because it keeps my mind right.

God tells us, and I know I'm speaking to the choir, but renew your minds.

We have to do that because the world wants to interject so much junk

so often we've got to be able to renew our minds with God's truth.

well, the choir needs to be preached to often also, just 'cause

they're sitting in the choir loft does not mean they have perfected their lives.

me either.

thanks for preach, thanks for preaching to, and sometimes

the choir needs more preaching than actually the, the congregation

as we won't go down that path.

Alright, so, so the book, you developed the

book and then other things started to spin off all the things I read off.

Gimme a little bit of kind of the.

of what was created when, because some things started spinning off after, was

it after, was the book the first thing or what was one of the first things y'all

So the book was the first thing I have a study guide.

That's a, an in depth kind of study that goes along with the book.

And that can, you know, it's kind of a companion set.

And then, it was the audio Bible.

I knew I wanted to, reach.

Hurting women at the time was my thought process, women in crisis

pregnancy centers, battered women's shelters, homeless shelters, so forth,

with an audible version of the word.

Many of them read on a lower reading level.

Many of them don't have access to the word.

Many of them have children and so They needed something where they

could hear God's word, but not in a voice that reminded them of

someone that possibly wounded them.

So we have many women that have dealt with abuse and so forth that we work with.

So, we wanted to create a female voiced audio Bible.

Couldn't find one out there that wasn't dramatized or wasn't just new testaments.

So we got with Phil Cook, who you mentioned earlier, he and his team and

his wife's on our board of directors.

And so we got with their team out in Burbank, California, and we recorded

at the time, it was about 2017.

We started it and we released it in 2019, the first fully female voiced

audio Bible from Genesis to revelation.

It's on, the courage for life Bible app.

You can get on an, Apple or Android device for free.

And it is.

I know I'm a little bit prejudiced, but I truly believe it's one of

the best readings of God's word.

And we use 15 different women from different walks of life, different

age groups, ethnic backgrounds, but clear English speaking voices.

it's soothing.

It just draws you in.

I've had people say they listen to it when they're going to sleep at night.

We have it on inmates tablets throughout the United States in 37 states.

And so inmates can download it for free.

We have, Thousands and thousands that have done so.

And we've found that the men are enjoying it as much as the women are.

which was surprising to me at first, because these men, many of

them come from fatherless homes.

hearing it in a woman's voice is actually very soothing to them as well.

So men love this audio Bible apt.

Tyndale picked it up.

They've got it on their, audio Bible streaming and on new version and so

forth, but if you want to download just that from our website, you can

just go to your Apple or Android and look for the courage for life Bible

app and download it there from there.

We wanted a Bible that.

Would be helpful for new believers or for people who were new to God's word.

Maybe they're seasoned believers, but they're new to God's word.

That would be easy to understand and encouraging, especially even

for our inmates as well, that would give them introduction.

So we created the Courage for Life Study Bible for men and the Courage

for Life Study Bible for women.

Women, they're not only beautiful, They're gorgeous, but they are

packed full of great information.

You've got introductions to the Bible, to the testaments, to each book of the

Bible, answering all of your who, what, when, where, why, and how about each book.

Like, how do I study this book?

Who wrote this book?

Why did they write this book?

What's going on?

Helping you put God's word into context.

And then when you go to read that book on the bottom of every single

scripture page is a Bible study.

That's 1, 464 practical application Bible studies that are all surrounded around

courage and building courage in our lives.

And what is God calling us to do in these seven steps?

What change is he calling us to make?

What obstacle do we need to overcome?

And so forth.

So we go through all of that in each one of the study Bibles and Tyndale,

they've been flying off the shelves.

They released last October of 2023.

And it's over 50, 000 in sales.

In addition to that, we've put more than 10, 000 into the prison systems

just in these last nine months.

And so we're raising funds all the time as someone would help

to support Courage for Life.

We are a donor funded ministry that gives free resources to The prison

systems in jails and also to addiction clinics anywhere where someone's being

treated for an emotional or, issue for, you know, just dealing with abuse,

neglect or, or trauma in their life.

So, that's kind of who we are.

We have the audio Bibles and my last devotional is courage for today.

That's just come out with broad street publishing.

So the goal is really help provide.

Discipleship materials that can help equip you for everyday life.

They can draw you closer to the Lord, closer to his word, helping you

understand and break down anything that feels like it's a barrier in your life

between you and living the life God intended you to live with great courage.

Are people, one of the things we talked about earlier was

just being in a surrender position.

You went through that in your life.

I've been through it in my life.

I think most people, when they go to a deeper place in their

relationship with the Lord, there usually is something like that.

We've interviewed, we've had a few people that have spent some time in

prison that have gone through that process and, and, and we've talked

to them here, but what do you see?

What's the posture in general of that group?

I know it's hard to generalize versus what we were talking about at the

beginning of this podcast, which is the people that show up in church for

a few minutes, do their church thing.

Give a contrast for us.

This could be close to our last question, but, um, seems like some

people are ready and I think more people need to be ready and I don't

think we need them all to go to

Oh, I agree 100%.

We can be in our own emotional prison sitting in a church pew.

So I think many, many of us are there and I was there, so I

can relate to that side of it.

When God began to open the door into the prison system, I was blown away

at how much I learned, about our prison system here in the United

States and what I've discovered, it is one of the greatest harvest fields.

for discipleship and for salvation.

And so I really feel it's the mission field God has called us to, even though

I've been to India, I've been to Africa, I've been a lot of places and I continue

to minister to a lot of the people there.

But God's called us specifically here in the United States to the prisons.

And we put a ton of content, free content in.

We also run classes.

And those are those courage from my life workbooks, which are taking our content

and putting it into a workbook format, helping inmates walk through those

seven steps to courage, breaking down.

the trauma that they've experienced and begin to express and let it come

out the things that they've, that they're going through, that's holding

them back, but making those necessary changes and beginning to put all of those

steps into place so that they can now.

Have the courage to set out on a new path, a new life journey with the Lord.

So that has been very successful.

and we're in nine states now and continuing to add more states

on all the time with our classes and their small group classes.

And we give Bibles to those as well.

But it is, it has been an amazing journey to work with them.

I see that there's so much potential.

We don't deal with a lot of the mental health issues.

We deal with the more emotional health issues, which a majority of inmates have.

Many of them come from broken homes where there were a lot of, Issues that they

dealt with in childhood that the baggage that they took on was a lot deeper and

the wounds were a lot deeper than what I experienced but It led them on a path

to try and self medicate or to help to support that habit by either stealing,

prostitution, or all of the above.

And in the United States, we have, at any given time, approximately 2

million people in our prison systems.

600, 000 of those rotate in and out of the doors every year.

So you get a new group in all the time.

And if we can.

help break down a little bit of that pain and hurt and suffering so that

when they do come back home, they're better grounded with God and his word.

And they're kind of healed somewhat from some of their scars.

They have a better chance of reuniting with their family in healthy ways.

You reuniting with their communities, churches in healthy ways.

And that is our greatest desire.

So we've only been doing this now.

We've been in the prison system since about 2019.

So about five years.

our chaplains, our wardens, the testimonies we received back, you can

go on our website at courageforlife.

org and see videos.

from some of the inmates, talking about their experience with the classes.

And, we just, we're thankful that God gives us that open door

because it is a mission field.

And you said, what's the difference?

The difference is they've got the time.

God has set them there for a period of time or allowed them to be there.

They have the time to make these changes and prepare for those

that are coming back out, to see a difference in a change in their lives.

It's a blessing.

They don't have as many of the distractions that we have outside.

We have, we have a different prison

Amen.

and you mentioned the website, I've actually got it

pulled up here, courageforlife.

org.

I think one of the things is almost my final question.

I would like for you to verbalize for us right now is what's the biggest need?

What is the biggest need that you have with what you're seeing with the

ministries and tell us what it is and give the ask, tell people what it is and ask.

Thank you, Tim.

I really appreciate that because, that is our, our challenge is

keeping up with the growth.

God opens doors every single day into different prison systems, into

different communities, addiction clinics, and so forth, and our

resources are making a difference.

But we have got to keep up, keep printing those.

we, every dime that comes into Courage for Life, we only have two salaried employees

and those are just keeping the doors open.

I create all the content.

I work on video teaching through Books of the Bible that you can see on our

YouTube channel or on our website.

And those all go into the prison system too.

So, but the main thing is we have donor funded resources.

We give those resources free into those clinics to help them walk it.

That journey with that inmate or that client and, we need partners.

We desperately need partners.

We need monthly partners.

So if anyone would consider becoming a monthly partner, even if it's

5, 10 or 15, 20 a month, that is.

Tremendously wonderful for us.

We want you to, get our resources.

We want you to engage in our Bible app and our, all of the other resources,

our video teaching, it's all free, but we can't do it without supporters.

and so we have several foundations.

So We need more supporters because God is opening doors like crazy for us, but

we need help walking through those doors.

So thank you for asking that.

And you can reach us at courageforlife.

org, spelled just like it sounds, courage for life, O R G Check out our page,

check out all of our content, buy our resources, share our message, and help us

to grow and expand throughout the United States and really throughout the world.

I've got it pulled up right here in front of me.

And, what I think we should do is let's.

Let that be the place where people go We'll include the links down in the notes

and in all the places that we include The that we're sharing all of this,

all the podcasts and everything and we are Seek, go create those three words.

You mentioned it earlier, and I know, you know, where those words come from.

I know, you know, they are very personal to me.

The Lord spoke them to me in a very unique and different way about

probably around 2012, somewhere in that range, down the road at Lake Oconee

Reynolds plantation Seek, go, create.

Let's see your personality.

I'm trying to think if I would be forcing you to give me one

word or I would be allowing you.

I don't know which one it would be, but give me one word out of those

three that just jumps out at you and why and that'll be my last question.

I'm going to say go that to me is if God is telling you to

do something, go take steps today.

if God is telling you to, to go to our website, go check us out, go with us.

Everybody can do something to help get the message out.

Our world is in desperate need of hope and encouragement and healing.

And, if you can go into a prison system, call us, we'll equip you with resources.

and encouragement and we'll get you there and on the way.

So just go do what God's calling you to do because, the time is short and,

you don't want to waste another minute.

Thank you for that.

And thank you for this conversation.

I appreciate your energy.

I appreciate the passion you have.

I appreciate your story and you sharing it, all the resources.

I appreciate your courage.

I appreciate your courage.

So make sure if you've listened in, go to courageforlife.

org and just check things out.

Give money, give a boatload of money.

give as much money as you feel comfortable giving, because I know

that that could go a long way.

but go there and support and share and do what you can there here at SeekGoCreate.

We have new episodes every Monday.

We're on YouTube.

We're on all the platforms until next time continue being

all that you were created to

be.