andrea (00:00)

Divorce can look a lot different if you are a stay-at-home parent. And we are gonna get into that and what you need to know on this episode of How Not to Suck at

Morgan (00:44)

school's out for summer. Yay. As you know, I'm not that excited about it. But my youngest child this week said to me in the morning when I was getting ready to work Mom, so when does summer start for you and your work?

andrea (00:59)

No.

Morgan (01:00)

I

know. And I felt so bad. And then part of me being, you know, the parent, there's always guilt no matter what you do. I walked out the door and I was like feeling really bad. I was like, God, this sucks. Going to work every day sucks so bad. I wish I did have a break. That would be amazing. And then fast forward to this weekend. It was like the first weekend in a really long time where we didn't have plans during the day or even in the evenings. And it was just really relaxing. But I wasn't relaxed.

I realized this weekend I'm not a chill person. I need that structure. And I think it just solidified it for me this weekend.

andrea (01:36)

I had a weekend sort of similar where I tried really hard to be present and like do things with my kids. And I I failed. I it was so hard. It was so raining. I felt so much pressure. Like I should be doing something else right now. But if I had to

Hear mommy watch this one more time at the neighborhood pool. I was going to drown myself. They're not doing anything. my younger was trying to like, I don't know, float. It just looked like he was drowning to the point where the lifeguard said to him, Buddy, if you're gonna try to keep floating, you gotta move your arms and legs because it looks like you're drowning.

Morgan (02:18)

There's going to be a rescue service here very shortly, sir.

andrea (02:22)

And we're 16, we're here for the tan, not to save your life. Please don't do that. Okay. Stay at home parents. We know that it is a just a shit show, like just your daily life. Just now, as I'm coming down to my studio to record, my nine-year-old who does not know how to ride the death trap, known as a Segway Scooter.

One of my best friends just gave us one because she's moving overseas and she no longer wants the death trap. she gave it to us. My nine-year-old is outside right now, unsupervised. Thank God he's wearing a helmet, attempting to teach himself how to segue scoot or whatever the hell it's called. What I'm gonna definitely end up in the ER in the next

30 minutes, we probably need to keep this episode tight. It never ends. It never ends. You are constantly on pins and needles, wondering what your kids are gonna do. Throw in the fact that now you're in an unhappy, unhealthy marriage. You want out, you don't know how the hell you're gonna do this financially. You don't know what the hell to do.

We've had a lot of this chatter lately in our private community, which is now over 2,000 members strong. What? I love that. But I don't love how many people in the group are struggling right now with.

Morgan (03:44)

I love that. That's amazing.

andrea (03:53)

I need to leave my marriage, but I'm a stay-at-home parent. Where is the guidance for me? So let's give it to them.

Morgan (04:00)

Okay. Well, here's a few things that really can drive stay-at-home parents like out of their mind. If somebody just says when they're struggling, you'll be fine. You're you're gonna be fine. Just go get a job. It's so easy to go get a job. You'll be fine. Or how about the courts always favor stay-at-home moms or stay-at-home dads. those are the things that just grate on stay-at-home parents. And I want to tell you, if you're a stay-at-home parent,

As a divorce attorney, I want to tell you you've got the harder end of everything. It's a thankless job what you're doing. So as a divorce lawyer, you want the right divorce lawyer that's going to find the silver lining of what you're doing and actually value what you're doing because your contributions to the family and the household are very real.

In my mind they have real value even if they aren't paid.

andrea (04:51)

The biggest question, Morgan.

And I this is one of those moments where we wish we had a magic wand and we don't yet. It's being built in China by a seven year old. ⁓ how do I afford this? How do I pay for an attorney?

Morgan (05:06)

Yep. And that's that's a good question. So, first of all, you need to meet with an attorney to know your rights and your options. That's point blank because every situation is completely different. So you can't look at your neighbor and say, Okay, that stay at home dad, you know, was out of the workforce for twenty years and I'm a stay-at-home mom and I'm out of the workforce for five years. It's a totally different lens that you have to look at the case through.

So you want to meet with a family law attorney to figure out what it looks like for you. The second thing you want to do, and this is hard for a lot of people who are stay-at-home, because the reality is your day as a stay-at-home parent goes really, really fast. I mean, think about all the things you have to do as a stay-at-home parent. It's not just parenting, it's taking care of the house, making returns, maybe cleaning up the house or getting groceries. I mean, this sounds like to some people who are working parents, maybe like, who cares? But

You're drowning by the end of the day. And it's like you wake up and the next thing you know, it's 3 p.m. and your day is done. it might be a little overwhelming to start gathering and organizing important documents. But if you can get your hands on anything in the house, like tax returns, bank statements, retirement account information, insurance policies, even maybe something related to your.

Personal property or real property, those kind of records will help a divorce attorney when you're going to talk to them about your rights and your options.

andrea (06:29)

The other thing that I want to make sure everyone is aware of you guys hear us talk about the divorce crash course all the time. This is going to be especially helpful to the stay-at-home parent because it's going to help you frame your mind around how to look at this as a business. I think that as the primary parent taking care of the kids, you tend to discount your intelligence and what you know.

And that is a huge mistake. Just because you are the one right now who's like the primary, you know, parent, house manager, you know, whatever, that does not mean that you are a drop less intelligent than the person you're divorcing. the DCC is gonna help you frame your mind in the right place. And it does not show up on a credit card statement as divorce help.

It shows up as I think it shows up as DCC 150 from our parent company name. So it's not gonna show up as anything as how not to suck at divorce. It is totally benign. If your spouse looks at the credit card statements and says, like, what is this? You can easily say it's for something for the house, right? It it's not, it's very inconspicuous.

Morgan (07:46)

I agree with you. And I would say that if you are at the really beginning stages of trying to figure out like, should I stay or should I go? Or I know I want to go, but I really feel kind of not up to speed on everything. And like Andrea said, the majority of my clients who are stay-at-home parents are very intelligent. They're just doing the heavy lift at the home. So don't discount yourself. But I do think that getting the DCC and just checking that out first.

It's a drop in the bucket. It's a very inexpensive on purpose, thanks to our friends at our Family Wizard and Soberlink, so that you can get some information so that you feel a little bit more grounded when you're ready to talk to a lawyer. All right, that said, I want to say if you're out of the workforce, here's a few things that lawyers are going to be asking you. And you want to know and start thinking about this when you go in for this meeting. First thing they're going to ask you is how long is your marriage? Because obviously.

That plays an important role in a lot of different jurisdictions. So you're going to want to know exactly what your jurisdiction says about potentially maintenance or alimony or child support. Where I am, it definitely matters how long you've been married. The other thing that matters is what did you do before you were out of the workforce? What kind of education do you have? What kind of training do you have? What kind of it matters because somebody potentially with let's just say an MBA.

andrea (08:59)

Why does that matter?

Morgan (09:04)

might be able to go get reemployed much easier. Somebody who was a lawyer for 15 years but then took a few years off to go have children probably could get reemployed fairly simply. If let's just say you're a lawyer 30 years ago and you have not worked in law since then, that's going to be a very different out outlook. Or a lot of times we have people who have a high school degree and no college or no further training. That's going to be

potentially a longer runway to get that person up and running. And then I guess the question always is for a lawyer, what could they potentially earn, even if they went back full time? And does it make sense?

andrea (09:43)

so we're talking about obviously money, support, maintenance, alimony, whatever, whatever it's called, based on where you live. Let's let's back up a scooch. Cause I think a lot of people are still focused on, okay, Morgan, you just said that we have to meet with an attorney. Well, how the hell is that paid for? Because I have heard you guys on other episodes say even your consultation is most likely going to be

An expense. It's not something that a lot of great attorneys are gonna offer up for free. How the hell do I pay that?

Morgan (10:15)

That's a good question. I'll tell you what I've had clients do. I've had clients borrow money from family. I've had family members or friends make the initial payment for them and even the re first retainer payment. They also, with lawyers' help, can do a promissory note so that it's a legitimate loan. It's not just a gift. Other people have slowly put away money or like cash.

to the side because they know that at some point they're going to want to go consult with an attorney and they bring c cash in at that point. Some people have opened second or third credit cards where the spouse does not have access to view those credit cards in order to be able to go make the consult payment. There's a lot of different ways that people do it so that they are not seen.

andrea (11:01)

let's talk about the people who don't have that as an option, what do they do? How does somebody make money?

Morgan (11:09)

Well, some people what I see is some people end up inevitably going back part time, maybe working on the computer a few hours a day so that they have enough money to start the process, the legal process, while maybe their kids are napping, at school, whatever it is, other people are kind of socking away cash here and there, little bits of cash in order to get enough to move forward with an attorney. Those are just a few options. And then obviously people borrow money from others.

andrea (11:37)

Guys, there is always an opportunity to make some money. There is, like Morgan just said, kids sleep. Kids are doing things during some hours of the day. This is not going to be an easy or fun phase. This is going to be a phase of maybe you're working really late at night. Maybe you're, you know, reviewing Amazon products. Maybe you're doing

Anything that you could possibly do. This is an area where you can use AI to your benefit. Go on your AI machine, tell it your skills. Maybe upload the most recent resume you've had and see what I can do right now to make money. And make sure that before you dive in and do anything, you want to run everything by a divorce attorney.

Because you don't want to be making too much money to the point where it can affect your case in a negative way. And again, we don't want anybody going rogue.

Morgan (12:37)

I want to address that because I know that people are always so worried about making money when they might be a maintenance or an alimony candidate. And you know, I have a different view about it. I have a different view. So usually my view is look, if you think you can go out there and and your kids are solid and everything's okay with them, you've got care for them, or maybe they're in school and you think you can go out there and kill it and make a ton of money, do it. Because ultimately

andrea (12:48)

Yeah.

Morgan (13:04)

That's money in your pocket, money in your family's pocket, etc. But usually most people who've been out of the workforce for a long period of time or a good period of time, that's not the case. I mean, they might be making, like you're talking about, Andrea, a little bit of money on the side so that they could potentially pay the retainer for a lawyer. So I don't like generally when attorneys say to people, don't go back to work, that'll hurt you.

It's very rare that I say that to a client. But again, everything is case dependent. You have to look at the total picture. So all roads lead back to a good lawyer and getting the necessary advice. So want to give a few other shout-outs to the stay-at-home parents there. Because what they're concerned about a lot of times is going back to work might not make financial sense because sometimes their kids are little and they don't want to pay for extra care at nanny.

Daycare, you know, God forbid, the expensive preschools and cities, those kind of things. Those are really important issues that need to be discussed with your lawyer. I would say the majority of the time when I'm talking about that, it makes sense for the person to stay a little bit longer at home and there's creative solutions in order to get them there. But there are those scenarios where I talk to the client and I say, Listen, financially it's just not an option for you. We have to get you back to work.

And what ideas can we do to get you back in the workforce? So one of the things that you should be prepared for is let's just say that you have a college degree and before you ended working, you were working in marketing. So what I might say to you is, depending on how long you've been out of the game, hey, are there any certificates or educational classes that you might need if you were to go back in that same structure?

So that we can get ahead of it. Maybe we have you start taking some online courses or doing things like that to get your certifications up to speed. And again, don't get scared. It's case dependent. It's not every time that we're saying that. It all depends on the facts.

andrea (15:06)

I have a question. If an attorney agrees, like yeah, we should get you a few courses, is that something that would come out of the marital estate? Like both parties would need to contribute to that expense?

Morgan (15:18)

It depends on jurisdiction, but where I am, everything comes out of the marital estate. So if if they're married, the marital estate is paying for it. And I don't think any side should be upset or angry that the other side is trying to get their feet up b like on the ground so that they have a certification so that in the future they can go back to work.

andrea (15:38)

Got it. So it wouldn't be the kind of thing where you would have to then and I'm just see I'm foreseeing somebody saying, okay, I want to move forward with that. Do I need to ask my soon to be ex-spouse, is it okay if I purchase a course on blah, blah, blah, blah, blah? Like how does that work?

Morgan (15:55)

Again, talk to your lawyer because I think that it's case dependent. I mean, I've had cases in the past that it just doesn't make sense for that person to go back and recertify in what they were doing before. Let's just take the case of a doctor. A doctor's been practicing before they're out of the workforce for 20 some years. Does anybody want that doctor coming back to work, assuming they could after 20 years and administering you whatever? No, they want that doctor to be up on all their courses.

A lot of times in really specialized fields like that, it doesn't make sense for that doctor to go back because maybe it takes, you know, another residency or years worth of schooling to get them back on their feet. And that financially just makes no sense in my mind in general.

andrea (16:39)

I might need that retired doctor soon though. If my kid falls off his scooter, I'll be the only one in their office.

Morgan (16:46)

a lot of stay-at-home parents are worried that if I am gonna go back to the workforce, whenever it is, tomorrow, next year, four years from now, my children will grow up in a different environment than what we intended. And that's a hard pill to swallow for some people. And in some cases, that doesn't happen because in some cases both parties are on the same page and there's enough money and they don't have to go back to work.

Again, I know it's annoying because we don't have the crystal ball to tell you exactly what's going to happen, but this is so fact dependent. And I want you to know there's a lot of different options of the end game with regards to stay-at-home parents.

andrea (17:25)

I think the hardest thing here is that when you are the one who's not making the money, we tend to immediately discount everything about ourselves. And we tend to then want to start operating. Well, I shouldn't say want to. I don't think I feel like in our minds it's not a choice. We immediately start operating from a place of fear. When that, you know, amygdala.

Is lit up in our brain, we start making the worst decisions because that is ground, zero for fear. That is ⁓ my god, I need a solution, I need it immediately, I'll take anything. I mean, that's the that that's the person who's sending their kid out on a Segway scooter when they should be, you know, not so.

Don't do that. The only way that you can quiet that part of your brain is by gaining information. So the fact that you're listening to this episode, that's gonna help you get information. You have to start somewhere. The next step would be find a way to have an appointment with an attorney. And yes, we don't want you to hire the first person you speak to.

We do want you to have three conversations. And yes, that can be expensive. That could be an area where you go to your family, or maybe you figure out, okay, for me to meet with three attorneys, it's gonna cost me this. Now I need to get creative. Maybe then you go into Chat GPT and you say, I need a good, I need a way to make X amount of money. Maybe you post.

on in Facebook mom groups that you're in. Maybe you can be an assistant to somebody. Maybe you can do something so that you get that first chunk of money that you need to sit down with an attorney, then hire an attorney and get your personal roadmap.

Morgan (19:24)

And a lot of times what I see with the stay at home parent, the other side, there's a lot of control, right? So the other side handles the money, they go make the money, and in their mind it's it's their money. And so when I'm dealing with the stay at home parent, a lot of times it's like the stay at home parent needs access to money. And the other side is saying, No, no.

Why would he need that access? he doesn't need that. And what I want to remind them and what I do remind the other side is this is his money too, whether he stayed at home or not. Guess what? He is half as wealthy as you are, at least where we practice. So it's not him. He should not be asking for to access his own money. And so those are the things that I think stay-at-home parents unfortunately get the shorter end of the stick because they're used to

having these delineated roles in the marriage. And so that's one thing that I want to remind you is that if somebody is out making the money, depending on your jurisdiction, but where I practice, it's everyone's money unless there's a pre marital agreement, unless it's coming from, you know, a non marital source. Those are some caveats to it. But for the most part, what I'm seeing is it's both parties' money.

andrea (20:32)

And stop letting yourself feel little. It is easier said than done when you have a spouse who scrutinizes a credit card statement and holds that really fun, condescending and belittling conversation where they sit you down and want to go line item style on well, what was this? Why did you spend seventy five dollars at Target? What did you get?

Well, then how come the very next day you spent X amount at Walmart? What was really necessary? Just answer questions. don't look at it as a personal attack on you. pretend in your mind that this is a business. Someone's asking questions. Guess what? You're allowed to ask questions too. I'd say, hey, I'm just curious, why, why, why do we need to go through this? Is there is there something that I need to be made aware of?

Is there a concern? Is there something that I should be, a part of too? I'm just I'm just curious.

Morgan (21:29)

that that kind of will shut the other side up. if the other side who's asking you and interrogating you on the joint credit card, for instance, if you believe or you know that the other side has a credit card that you don't see, that should be your response too. As soon as you want to give me your credit card and your statements to look through as well, we can have a time or set a time to sit down and go through everybody's statements.

andrea (21:51)

And I wouldn't even be aggressive about it. I would just say, sure. I'm happy to sit down and talk about this. Do you want to go over your credit card as well? Are we going to go over everyone's? And if they say no, I haven't. Okay, well, I'm just curious, why are we going over the family card? I would also make sure you're always referring to it as the family card. This is the family card. These are these are purchases made for our family.

And if there is something on there that's just for you, that's okay too. Because as Morgan has said over and over and over again, and we've had so many guests talk about this. Most famously, I think it was Lois Lieberman not long ago on our episode about how to outmanipulate the manipulator. You matter too. You matter. You are allowed to take up oxygen. You are allowed to spend money.

You matter just as much. So if there's a charge on there for a haircut, for Botox, for whatever it is, don't feel the need to lie and and cover up something. No, this is for me. Let and let that moment sit there. You need to say that with confidence.

And with that knowing that you matter too, because the minute that you start pretending that you don't, trying to cover things up, everything is just for the kids. there's nothing for me, and I don't matter. You're not only sending a message to your spouse that you think that you don't matter, you're sending a message to yourself as well.

Morgan (23:18)

Some

I agree with that completely.

andrea (23:25)

there's something that a lot of people don't do that is really important in terms of looking like the responsible parent, looking like you are being proactive so you're not reactive. And I'm talking about organization. One of the easiest ways to be organized and to help your children is to use a co-parenting app, specifically our Family Wizard.

You guys know we work very closely with R Family Wizard. What you might not know is it's not an app that's only for high conflict parents. That is a huge misconception in the divorce world. Anybody can use R Family Wizard. There are so many people who use this app proactively because of everything that it can do to help you remain organized, just to help you share your calendars. So you being the parent.

Who's been at home with the kids can say to your attorney, hey, we're going from me being in charge of all the things to now having to share things. I want to make sure that we remain as organized as possible. Can we please suggest that both parties get on this app to make things as smooth as possible? Let's say the co your co-parent agrees, great. Let's say your co-parent doesn't agree. Well, guess what?

Now there's a paper trail of the fact that you were the one who suggested it. That's gonna make you look really good should this matter ever go before a judge, because you look like the one who is proactive and super responsible, and the one who wants to make this process as seamless as possible for the children.

Morgan (25:09)

I think that it's so easy as a stay-at-home parent to minimize your role. And I don't think and I don't believe where I practice that the law minimizes stay-at-home parents' role. There's a reality of financial interests in a divorce, but the role is not minimized. It's basically what we're looking at is how long have you been out of the workforce? What does your child care look like? what resources do you have, meaning your wealth or your bank accounts, what's in it?

And can we sustain this? And if not, what options do you have to go back? So it's a very complex web, but I think that people are just too quick to discount their role in the family. I mean, think about your house. If you did not do your role as a stay-at-home parent, what would your house look like? If you went to work all day and had no extra help, no cleaning person, no nanny, no house manager, no, no, none of that.

Would your spouse be okay with what would be going on in your house? I mean, I can only imagine my house. There would be boxes piling up, returns, nothing would be in order. We probably couldn't find half the things we need for our children. You know, those kind of things. And so a

andrea (26:14)

There would be no food. There would be

no food. There would be laundry piles everywhere. There would be mass chaos. Nobody would know where they have to be or when when they have to be there. There would be unanswered emails. There would be it would just be an absolute disaster.

Morgan (26:33)

And I'm not

saying you can't get there. You can, but it takes a lot of planning and structure to the next point point of your life. It's not like just today I'm just not I'm gonna go to work and forget it. It's that's not how it works. There's gotta be some kind of runway back into the workforce or into a new structure for your family.

andrea (26:52)

we didn't even touch on what you really do for children. You are the one there regulating their nervous systems and helping them become adults. I mean, that there's not a price that can be put on that. It is awful that stay-at-home parents feel like they have to bow down.

And are afraid to approach their spouse about wanting a divorce or about having so much fear on how am I gonna do this. We don't view ourselves as equals and that has to change. The only way that that will change is by you getting education. So let's quickly give everybody a recap of some action items.

Morgan (27:36)

Your action items before you go to a lawyer. If you don't know kind of where you're going in the future, get your hands on the DCC. Number two, before you go to a lawyer, see if you can understand your financial situation. Grab some documents related to your assets, your debts, your income, your expenses. If you can do it, if you can't, still go see a lawyer. You want to think about and be prepared to answer information about the workforce and whether you have been in it before.

What about your education? What kind of education have you had? When was the last time you were at work? What were you earning at that job the last time? And if you were to go back into that job or into another job, would you require some kind of training or some kind of different options to get you there?

andrea (28:19)

And if you need a boost, again, use AI. I'm not saying use AI and then go and do it. But use AI. ChatGPT is so great for this stuff because it really like give ⁓ Andrea, this is a great question, fire emoji. I think that you could blah blah blah blah blah. Do you want me to put together a resume? How about a PowerPoint presentation? Have fun with it.

Let your brain kind of wander and imagine all these things that you could do to make some money before you do it. Make sure you vet that with a divorce attorney. Unless we're talking about something that you can do short term in order to make money to afford the consultation, right? Then by all means, go and do that. But let yourself have a moment where you're boosted. Get that education, quiet that fear.

Morgan (29:04)

Yeah.

andrea (29:12)

part of your brain because you can do this. I promise you that you can do this. This is not going to be easy every single day. But what you're doing right now, more importantly, what you do the moment after this episode ends is the next step of the rest of your life.

Morgan (29:12)

Yeah.

I could not agree more. Remember, divorce is a marathon. It is not a sprint. Please rate and review us. That means the world.

andrea (29:37)

follow us on social media, post questions in the private community. I cannot believe there are 2,000 people in there. Holy cow.

And keep swimming. You are going to do this. You can do this. And remember, you've got this.

Morgan (29:53)

And we, my friends, have got you.