Speaker: 00:00:00

Welcome everybody to the Gospel Talks podcast where we help Christians all over the world

become more effective in relational evangelism and discipleship.

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My name is George Bonocca, I'm your host, and as a guest with me today is Pastor Joel

Mosher.

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He is a pastor in Cypress, Texas, which is in the Houston area, and he's got a wonderful

ministry there.

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It's actually a bit of a, it's got that big international flavor, doesn't it, that, your

church there?

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Yes, yes it does.

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George, good to see you again.

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Thanks for having me.

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Good to see you too, brother.

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Thank you so much for being here.

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um Well, we're going to jump right into a kind of heavy topic.

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could be a controversial one, but cultural adaptation when it comes to reaching people

with the gospel and discipleship.

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How do we relate to the culture around us?

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There's been many, many books written about this.

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give us a, first of all, before we get started, give us a snapshot of your ministry at

Grace Life.

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and your involvement with the exchange, you're an exchange trainer, tell the audience a

little bit about that and your heart behind that.

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Yeah, I have been the pastor at Grace Life Baptist Church now for the past.

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It'll be 13 years this coming Sunday.

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It will be my my 13th year here and God has been so kind to Grace Life over these past 13

years.

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We started off at a in a public school middle school with 22 people our first Sunday of

which six of them were my family uh and our my wife was pregnant at the time.

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And uh so now here we are 13 years later.

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We built the building that we're in now and um God has kindly allowed us to reflect the

city of Houston.

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So Houston is a minority majority city.

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That is there's no one ethnic majority ah in Houston.

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And so Grace Life ah actually does not

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Grace life does not reflect our zip code.

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We actually reflect the city of Houston.

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uh So whatever, Houston is right now is what the United States is slated to be come 2050,

maybe a little few, few years before that.

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And um so because of, because of that we, uh you know, on our screens when we sang,

there's English on top, Spanish on the bottom.

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And then we try to sing at least one stanza, most of the songs in Spanish.

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And so then Spanish gets flipped on top.

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I'm not bilingual myself.

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know enough Spanish to be dangerous.

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uh But that's where we are now.

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uh We are getting ready to plant a church in 2026.

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And so, God willing, ah we will send one of our current elders, uh he and Lord willing,

we'll have about 40 of our Grace Life folks who will be planting uh about 15, 20 minutes

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away from where we currently are.

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And that's been a five-year prayerful dream, and now to the point where we're getting

ready to see that church covenant together.

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um And so looking forward to that, and then there's plenty more to be done beyond, uh

after that church plant.

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So we'll see where God leads us.

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But yeah.

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We're grateful for where Grace Life is, that we reflect the diversity of our city.

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So even like this Sunday, we have a volunteer appreciation dinner.

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And this Sunday, uh we've named it Around the World, and everyone's gonna bring their own

ethnic food, dress in their ethnic garb, uh we'll just enjoy each other's company that way

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this coming Sunday.

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So tell me like what are some of the ethnicities that comprise the Houston area?

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I mean, when you say you're a reflection of Houston, what does that look like practically?

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I'm guessing it's a little bit of everything, but what specific people groups?

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if we want to break it down just generally, Grace Life is 40 to 45 % Anglo, we are 35 plus

percent Latino, and then we are 15 % African American, 5 % Asian.

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In that Latino, if you wanted to break that out subcategory, I mean, there's seven or

eight countries represented from

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you know, that speak Spanish.

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whether it's Mexico, Spain, Colombia, I'm trying to think of other countries off the of my

head, but at least there are seven or eight countries that are represented from our Latino

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culture.

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And then from our African-American brothers and sisters, there are some who are born and

raised here, but then there are other brothers and sisters who are African who have since

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immigrated to the U.S.

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um So that's kind of hopefully that's helpful there.

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Yeah, you actually wrote an article about the topic we're talking about today.

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And by the way, for those of you listening, I'll drop it in the description below.

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So you can look at the show notes and grab that article.

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um you mentioned that Houston has multiple layers of culture, Western city, religious

community.

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How can somebody begin to identify the layers of culture in their own town or neighborhood

the way you have in Houston?

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I mean, how did you even do all that when you got there?

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Yeah, I think first of all, it's not something I initially just like watched and observed

and was able to identify it, but the longer I've been here, I've uh been able to verbalize

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what those are.

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So when we say Western, we're not talking about Western culture as opposed to Eastern

culture.

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We're talking about cowboy boots, hats, uh Button-up Western wear, stuff like that.

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So how do you identify the various layers?

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of uh culture in a given city.

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uh You know, obviously attire communicates.

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uh So uh if you're in a small farming community, right, and everybody is wearing uh

overalls or they've got uh steel-toed shoes or something like that, I mean, that's a

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culture in and of itself.

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I do think that, let me say this George, I think because I am in a minority majority city

and because this is the very first time that I've ever pastored where it wasn't 95 % plus

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Anglo, all of a sudden I'm alert to these things.

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But I think even those brothers who are pastoring in communities that are 99 % Anglo or 80

% Latino,

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there are still a variety of cultures that are reflected in there.

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And it really takes just someone with a little bit of observational skills and then the

ability to figure out the nuances there.

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So, for me, Western culture shows up when it's rodeo week down at NRG Center, right?

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And...

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And there's a big rodeo parade that marches through Tomball, which is a community next to

us.

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And then the Decipress and then literally people are riding horses down the middle of the

street.

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And it's just part of what happens in the spring every year.

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our school district takes their spring break is wrapped around that.

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So anyways, that helps us identify, you know, Western culture in Houston.

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The religious culture can be identified because

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I literally will drive one major street over and I see a mosque uh being built there.

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And then on the road that I live off, if you go straight up, there's a Buddhist temple.

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uh There's a Mormon Latter-day Saints building in another direction.

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And then of course, there's seven Baptist churches of some variety or another.

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And so anyways, all of that helps inform

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on the religious culture.

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And then I think for those of us who are pastors, just reminding ourselves as we drive to

church, those are just the religious ones.

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There's another 80 plus percent that are irreligious and never show up to worship at any

uh religious gathering of some kind.

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you have that.

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The other part of that article I think was cultural.

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we could clearly, each of those could fall under cultural.

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But I think, you know, for a pastor to just in the midst of our normal day when you're

driving to Walmart or you're driving to Chick-fil-A, what is going on in your city?

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uh That high school, where do they play football at?

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um What advertisements are on that billboard that are, that's unique or local?

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to my community, all of those are ways of nuancing what's specific and unique to your

culture in that given city.

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You know, it sounds to me like you've had to kind of get out of your office a little bit

and walk around the neighborhood, so to speak, uh which is most pastors coming out of

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seminary are told to pretty much stay in their office, you know, study a lot.

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That's not a bad thing, this study.

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You need to be in your office studying, doing administration, but there's an aspect of

you.

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need to be present in your community.

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You need to be a member of the community.

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And for those of you listening that are just, you know, people who aren't pastors, just

Christians in your community, I think that we can get tied up in our jobs too.

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I think we can get kind of um solely focused on our little rut in the community instead of

kind of looking around and going, okay, who else is around here?

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What else is going around that's different?

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Something I wouldn't usually attend.

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Are you kind of like a rodeo kind of guy or is that something pretty much you got into

because you're like, hey,

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this is right here in my community and you don't strike me as a rodeo kind of guy.

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I could be wrong.

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No, I'm not a rodeo guy, but I do have my cowboy boots and I do wear them a couple times a

year and I make sure I wear them on that Sunday uh with our church family.

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So no, it's something you have to embrace, right?

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uh You know, you think about historically, when Hudson Taylor goes to China, right?

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He adopts their garments, he adopts their hairstyle.

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Right?

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And so, you know, there's being able to being able to identify the parts of culture that's

not being and that's not being fake.

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That's me saying I am the outsider.

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I want to be a part of this community.

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And so I think even driving around.

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So, you know, I remember I just finished reading a biography of W.A.

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Criswell.

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Criswell said this.

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Your mornings are for God, your afternoons are for your church family, and your evenings

are for your family.

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And so that whole idea of getting out of our study, getting away from our laptop, and

engaging with our church family, and if you listen long enough and you ask enough

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questions, you'll begin to pick up on the culture that's reflected in your city.

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Yeah, think so.

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think, I mean, if you're doing a straight demographic study, I think the thing you're

looking for is language groups, because there isn't a stronger border between different

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cultures and tribes than language.

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mean, because, and heart language means a lot, but that helps you just identify which

groups are present, but to actually go into those groups, you have to do what you're

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talking about there.

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I mean, has all this effort to get into the culture and the community

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Has it been effective that it actually helped you?

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Has it ever helped you connect?

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Relationally spiritually with somebody that you could give like an example of

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Absolutely.

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ah You know, we're talking a lot about rodeos and things like that, but let me just talk

about another cultural element.

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ah My local, my kids bus stop ah where all the parents hang out and while the school bus

is waiting or getting ready to pick the kids up, those 10 to 15 minutes there allowed me

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and my wife to get to know Ken and Ashley.

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Ken was culturally Buddhist.

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Ashley had grown up in a Presbyterian home, but she was atheist.

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And so being culturally aware in that sense of just getting to know our neighbors uh at

that bus stop then allowed us to engage relationally.

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And I won't go through all the details of that story, but that relationship began at a bus

stop.

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It continued through the Bible study.

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We did the exchange because there were so many questions.

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We then went into the Gospel of John.

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ah And probably and they started attending grace life even though they were not believers

because they were curious and Probably 10 to 8 to 10 months later.

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They both confess Christ When we opened up our building here the very that very first

Sunday Ken and Ashley were our very first two baptisms uh in this building and so that's a

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that's an example of

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entering into a culture that's unfamiliar with you, that's with me, and meeting people

where they're at, beginning that relational, beginning the relationship, and for us it

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always starts with food, ah and then going into the Bible itself and the Gospel.

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I mean, that's another big one is food.

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It's a big, it's like a glue between different people, just kind of glues a relationship.

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anyway, we can talk about, we don't want to talk about food the whole time, but I love

that.

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I love that example.

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um So let's talk about navigating that religious difference.

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Like you're talking with a Buddhist and you're talking with an atheist.

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mean, now that's a really kind of, there are a lot of dynamics and there had to have been

a lot of dynamics in that Bible study.

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ah So you talk about, you know, you've seen people, you know, these different places of

worship in your community and building rapport.

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What is noticing religious context?

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What kind of doors does that open?

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I mean, you would think the religious differences would actually shut doors, that an

atheist, a Buddhist, and a Christian couldn't have a conversation.

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So how does it actually open doors?

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Yeah, I think being intellectually curious, genuinely intellectually curious about

religions, let me give you a story that I think will help with this.

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Probably seven or eight years ago, the Muslim mosque at the time of Majid, they were

having an outreach day and they wanted someone from a Protestant perspective to come.

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and um all the other Christian churches had said no and somehow they found grace life.

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So G in the yellow pages or guess Google I guess.

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And so they said would you come?

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And I said absolutely we'll come.

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So it was kind of like a what you and I would maybe do for uh on a Saturday Easter egg

hunt or something like that.

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They had bounce houses and food and Mediterranean food, things like that.

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And so I went with probably, I brought four or five of our church families with us and um

they asked me to say a word and so I just, you know, I said something publicly.

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But all it was was it was an outdoor event that uh it was their way of trying to get into

the community.

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That started off a relationship though.

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Let me fast forward then another four to five years later.

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I am now talking with my neighbors who are uh Pakistani and they worship at that mosque.

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It is the month of Ramadan and they say to me, they say to my wife and I, Joel and Tara,

would you break fast with us uh at our mosque?

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And so they had given me Pakistani attire, actually they gave both of us Pakistani attire.

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And so we put on our, my long shirt, I don't know what you call it.

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And Tara wore the head covering that she was given.

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We went in, we sat down, we did not participate in any part of the worship at all.

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We sat at one of the tables.

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And then when they got done with their last prayer, we actually broke.

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Fast with them and eight with them and I told him I called him by name I said, you know, I

said I've been fasting today, too I'm not fasting for the same reasons you're fasting I

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said I've actually been fasting because Jesus tells His followers that when you pray and

when you fast and I said I've been fasting in the same way For some things that are on my

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heart and one of the things was was their salvation.

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So those are I Now, how did I get that invitation?

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I got that invitation because I was intellectually curious enough to start asking

questions about why do you do this?

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No me and why do you do this during Ramadan?

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Why do you do this?

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uh And that then allowed us to enter into their culture.

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uh They have not professed.

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They have not confessed Christ at all, um but we've shared the gospel and we trust the

Lord with.

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a lot of guys would be totally uncomfortable with that.

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But what I love about that is what that communicates to me is you took an interest in

somebody.

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And you could take an interest in somebody that's a golfer.

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You could take interest in somebody that's a fisher.

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You could take interest in somebody that's a hiker and end up going to wherever they go to

that is very important to them and taking an interest in being present with them.

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That's all relational.

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And I love that you caveated that you're not there for, you know,

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any worship purposes because we're not acknowledging a false worldview but but taking an

interest in people that's a big deal that they gave you clothes and said come be with me i

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mean everything that they will hear about jesus from you after that will be colored by how

you made them feel in that it's a very important thing

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and I don't I I think because of the political cultural tensions in our own country

specifically around Islam and Muslims ah There is this sense from our Muslim neighbors,

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especially as a baptist pastor but I mean I think just as an American like You know, how

are you accepting of me?

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And certainly I am not accepting of Islam as a religion by any means ah But I can accept

the person

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Bring in that relationship bringing that person to Jesus uh So and part of that is it's

communicated with our body language.

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It's communicated by a smile It's communicated by am I willing to extend myself and be

uncomfortable and I think part of the cultural the cultural adaptation Legitimate cultural

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adaptation is we become as Christians and as Christian pastors

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uh We want people to buy into our culture.

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Well, the only culture that I have that I want people to buy into is the gospel.

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That's it.

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you know, everything else uh is a means toward meaningful relationship towards Christ.

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And so I wonder sometimes if we not only are selling the gospel, but we're selling gospel

plus a Christian subculture.

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that we're expecting family A or B to also adopt um at the get go.

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I think that the biggest thing to navigate for a Christian is how do you do that without

compromising the gospel?

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We don't want to affirm false teaching.

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How have you navigated that in your relationship with them to make sure you don't come

across like, you've already gotten at it in a couple different ways, but is there anything

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anything else you'd add to that as a safety measure to kind of safeguard against that kind

of thing.

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Yeah, the only thing I feel, one thing I can say is that God has had to grow me out of

this fear of man.

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And just not being afraid to say, now I'll go with you, but just so you know, I follow

Jesus.

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And I think it's stating what's already obvious, and it's an issue of conscience on our

side, probably not on their side, but it's an issue of conscience on our side.

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So I think probably just stating the obvious, and that I'd be happy to break fast with

you.

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in this way, but I'm still worshiping the Jesus of the New Testament here.

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Yeah, and I think there is a cultural tension.

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we could take what's happening on the other side of the world in terms of conflict in the

Middle East and bring it into our communities.

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It's not necessary because many of the people that are here are here to get away from that

and they acknowledge that they don't want to be part of the violence.

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However, we were just sitting with an Iranian couple on the day that the bombs were

dropped on those bunkers.

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And it's interesting, as an American I'm sitting there thinking

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thinking, well, you know, that country, you know, I don't know how I feel about the

government having nuclear weapons.

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I don't think that's a great idea.

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I think all of us would agree.

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Not a safe thing.

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But then you're sitting there with the people that saying that's close to where my parents

live.

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And you're going, man, that that feels a little different, you know.

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And so I think we don't we have to be careful about our external biases coming into a

relationship.

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And just like if a guy

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said, Hey, I go golf all the time.

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You want to come golfing with me?

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Golf may be where he worships.

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And for you, you're not going to worship uh at Topgolf.

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You're just going to be there with him.

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uh In the same way, I think we can go to be there, be there with the people, but they but

they need to know we do need to caveat.

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Hey, I don't I don't believe this, but I'm here for you.

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And a long time ago, a long time ago, I was told this.

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I wish I knew about this earlier in ministry, and wish I knew about it earlier as a

Christian.

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People may never remember what

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you say, but they will always remember how you made them feel.

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And I think the, I mean, your neighbors, you're going be closer than ever after something

like that.

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So you describe community involvement.

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You know, in Houston, you guys have had storms.

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I know you've been involved in cleanups and school outreach and building trust in the

community.

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mean, do you have like a story or give us examples of the kind of service that leads to

gospel fruit in your community?

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How can people not just be aware of their community, but get involved in the community?

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Yeah, I would say this.

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We've had storms here, hurricanes that seem to cycle they seem to come through.

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We don't have like a standing neighborhood cleanup team or anything like that.

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It's just as events arise, ah it's a weekend here, it's a weekend there.

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And I think that's probably what has, least thus far, that's what kind of least inoculates

us from.

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that the serving itself is the gospel, right?

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The serving is not the serving in that community, the volunteering in that school is not

the gospel.

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They're just bridges that lead toward the gospel.

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ah And so I'm trying to think of other than other than when we've helped clean up and

storms, people visiting the church, things like that.

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That's been the extent of gospel ministry.

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where we've offered, you know, exchange Bible studies and things like that.

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So I can't think of a specific one, but I think in our context, it's just a matter of uh

these are opportunities that that lend to the gospel.

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And I think as a pastor, that's just my responsibility to remind us of that.

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uh George, can I say this about identifying culture within within communities?

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We've talked a lot about Houston being international.

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I have no idea who's listening to this podcast and

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They may be in a farming town in Kansas or in a rural town in Colorado.

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And that's just, you know, a mosque and a Buddhist temple just outside the fabric of what

that community is like.

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I just spent time looking at our school district, our local school district's uh annual

calendar.

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Things like that are an insight into what that community

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values.

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Why did they place the spring break there and not here?

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Why did they put that winter break in there?

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um All these types of things, the uh driving driving by on a Friday night and seeing a

football stadium filled.

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um I think all of these these these various pieces, I think if we just pull back and stop

and think for a little bit.

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their windows into what the community values.

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And therefore, at least what I need to be aware of is I'm seeking to minister in that

given culture.

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ah And so hopefully that's helpful besides just kind of the international illustrations

that I've used um here this afternoon.

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I'm most people don't think to look at the districts, the school districts calendar and do

that kind of digging, but I love that because if there are people out there willing to dig

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to that level of detail to make financial investment, shouldn't we be willing to dig to

that level of detail to do spiritual investment?

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I think even looking at your city's budget to understand where the city is going and what

does it invest in

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what are the initiatives that are important to it?

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You know, those kind of things are really important things that figure out how you can

encourage police officers, first responders, different people in the community.

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Even, I know, it's surprising to me how many people don't think about reaching the

politicians in their community.

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You know, I mean, they need encouragement too.

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I mean, instead of calling our representatives and just complaining

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What if we called as Christians and said, hey, I'd like to pray for you.

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How can I pray for you?

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Just something simple like that.

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How do you prevent...

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Okay, so let's say you start a food bank or you do something to get involved in your

community.

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Coach football or whatever.

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How do you prevent it from becoming the social gospel?

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How do you prevent it from becoming a good works without actual gospel message where it

just becomes a 501c3 where it's like you're doing humanitarian work but you're not doing

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God's work?

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What are the safeguards necessary?

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Well, setting up the initial, what is the purpose of said ministry?

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So if the purpose of said ministry of food pantry is to give food, then I don't think

we've thought with depth about this issue enough.

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Yes, it is because there may be a food shortage with oh a certain population within my

community, but everything that this church does and everything that our churches do are

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just.

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oh ramps or exits into the gospel itself.

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So I have to, I mean as a pastor, I have to remind myself, we have an Easter egg hunt

every Saturday before Easter.

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And we share the resurrection story, but I have to remind myself consistently, this is not

just, hey we're glad to have you today, this is building relationships so that I can get

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into

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conversations about what's going on in their family so that I can eventually get into

sharing the gospel.

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And so even like this past, so you say what are the safeguards?

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The safeguards are me as a leader of this church and my fellow pastors constantly

reminding both publicly and privately in conversation this is only the beginning of

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ministry.

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This is not the end.

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And the end of the ministry is when I have the opportunity and the ability to share the

gospel with them.

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And so I think just simply being conscious and aware of that is half the battle, George.

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I Christians listening, the people listening to this podcast, Laborers in the Harvest, I

think that if somebody goes into the community and says, I'm gonna coach Little League or

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I'm gonna coach this for the purpose of reaching into my community, for the purpose of

building relationships.

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Let's say you get a year, two years down the road and you've never had the opportunity to

share the, well, I say you never had the opportunity, you never shared the gospel with

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anybody but you had opportunity.

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be a time to kind of step back, assess, I using this opportunity that God gave me the

right way?

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Am I being a steward of it?

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Or has the bridge become the ministry instead of actually being something that leads to

something greater, a bigger conversation?

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I think it's really important for us to do those audits in our activities.

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Last thing, what would you say to a Christian who feels too busy, too disconnected or

whatever to engage their community meaningfully?

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Oh brother, well first of all any pastor feels too busy and it's like, no.

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First of all I would just say this, A, it's hard work.

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Anything that is gonna have an eternal significance is gonna be hard work.

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ah I know it's easier said than done.

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The other thing I would say is you've got to figure out pockets and windows of your time.

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that are specifically given over to building relationships.

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And as my kids, here's the thing I'm learning now, is uh my kids are beginning to age out

of, I've got one in middle school and I've got one in high school, my older three are out

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of the house now.

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The intentionality that I have to have now is off the charts compared to what it was

before.

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ah And so it's figuring out how to,

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how to pair back good things in favor of the better thing.

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ah And then the intentionality that it's gonna take and the creativity, I think as well.

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You talked about sharing the gospel with politicians.

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ah There's other avenues, I think, for individuals to get involved and share the gospel.

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And so I always tell our church family this, like if you go and work out at LA Fitness,

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That's not just LA fitness time, that's uh share the gospel time.

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You're building relationships.

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If you're in a running club to prepare for an upcoming half marathon, that's great.

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But those are just natural opportunities that God has already provided for you to begin to

share the gospel.

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And the same we could say about Little League Baseball or coaching sports teams.

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Enjoy all the good gifts that God has given to us and allowed us to participate in.

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But those are the means and the mechanisms by which God wants us to share the gospel in

our normal relationships.

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Great commission living as we go, we're sharing Christ.

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Yeah, all we have to do as Christians is just keep our eyes open.

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mean, God has given you those opportunities, put you in that circle of people, put you at

that gym, put you at that cubicle for a reason bigger than the material thing you're

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getting, the material benefit, the earthly benefit you're getting out of that thing.

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So we have to look for, what is the Lord doing right here, you know, and have eyes up like

the 300 men Gideon took with him, right?

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It was the guys that...

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Yeah, they were lapping up the water, but they had their hand on their sword and their

eyes were up and they were looking over the horizon, constantly watching the ridgeline,

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know, that kind of thing.

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It's like we have to be in that mode as Christians, as laborers, but you're exactly right,

Brother.

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Well, Pastor Joel, so appreciated having you on the podcast.

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This has been an awesome episode.

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gonna have to bring you back, try to finish the second half of these questions and, you

know, understand a little bit more about culture

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um and how we relate to it as Christians.

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Thank you guys so much for listening.

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We love you guys.

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just please ask you to pray with us as we pray to the Lord of Harvest that he would send

forth laborers.

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The harvest is plenty.

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I mean, look at what's happening in Houston.

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are all Muslims coming and Buddhists coming and there's atheists and there's all these

people around us and uh people from Latin America and people from Africa coming to our

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country.

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And so the mission field has come to us and now we need to go out to the harvest.

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We need to send forth laborers.

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We need to be willing to become more effective in our labors.

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And so that's our prayer for you guys.

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So thank you so much for listening.

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Subscribe if you haven't already subscribed.

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Share this with somebody that could use the encouragement.

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We'll see you guys next week.