1 00:00:10,541 --> 00:00:12,781 Hello and welcome to the perpetual traffic podcast. 2 00:00:12,781 --> 00:00:15,711 This is your host, Ralph burns, founder and CEO chair 11, 3 00:00:15,721 --> 00:00:17,701 alongside my awesome cohost. 4 00:00:18,301 --> 00:00:18,661 Lauren E. 5 00:00:18,661 --> 00:00:20,761 Petruo, founder of Mongoose Media. 6 00:00:21,011 --> 00:00:25,491 And we're going to be talking misconceptions of this word. 7 00:00:25,786 --> 00:00:30,526 This word that everyone, I think misuses, but we're going to leave it 8 00:00:30,526 --> 00:00:34,376 in the title of today's show, obviously, because everyone knows, if you've been 9 00:00:34,376 --> 00:00:38,576 listening to the show, what conversion rate optimization actually is, it's CRO, 10 00:00:38,576 --> 00:00:43,646 but it's so much more than that, Lauren, don't you find so many people are just 11 00:00:43,646 --> 00:00:48,006 like, Oh, I, all I need is a better conversion rate on my site, and then if 12 00:00:48,006 --> 00:00:54,206 I double my conversion rate, my business doubles, is it really that simple? 13 00:00:54,206 --> 00:00:57,186 Lauren Lauren, or, my just on drugs. 14 00:00:58,111 --> 00:00:59,811 I'm always going to say, it depends. 15 00:00:59,811 --> 00:01:02,781 The safest words any marketer can ever say. 16 00:01:03,421 --> 00:01:05,881 but there are some Dululu moments when. 17 00:01:06,426 --> 00:01:10,746 An individual believes that one single item can make the world of difference. 18 00:01:10,966 --> 00:01:11,806 At times it can happen. 19 00:01:11,826 --> 00:01:12,796 It depends, of course. 20 00:01:14,036 --> 00:01:17,776 But there are a lot more things that are being said that don't make 21 00:01:17,776 --> 00:01:19,756 sense than are being implemented. 22 00:01:19,906 --> 00:01:23,736 Yeah, well, at the end of the day, our, our job is to help 23 00:01:23,736 --> 00:01:24,966 businesses make more money 24 00:01:27,406 --> 00:01:31,246 and, spread their product to goods and services to the right types of people, 25 00:01:31,246 --> 00:01:36,156 and hopefully have a positive effect on the world and in so doing profit from it. 26 00:01:36,166 --> 00:01:41,696 So conversion rate optimization, I think has been, Like the term itself 27 00:01:41,746 --> 00:01:43,536 has been misused through time. 28 00:01:43,536 --> 00:01:51,196 So we're here today to smash, just break apart, explode, blow up those 29 00:01:51,206 --> 00:01:57,456 misperceptions because we've got the founder and CEO of split base, Raphael 30 00:01:57,496 --> 00:02:02,546 Paul and Dagle here as a guest on today's show of perpetual traffic to 31 00:02:02,546 --> 00:02:08,176 dispel all those myths, the myth busting CRO guy, welcome to perpetual traffic. 32 00:02:08,811 --> 00:02:09,611 Thank you so much. 33 00:02:09,611 --> 00:02:11,141 I'm so excited to be here. 34 00:02:12,636 --> 00:02:13,866 Well, I think we're going to. 35 00:02:14,086 --> 00:02:18,066 Take a lot of CRO people off today and, which is fine. 36 00:02:18,146 --> 00:02:18,776 why not? 37 00:02:19,866 --> 00:02:22,516 I mean, it's not fun to, be in the middle of the road. 38 00:02:22,996 --> 00:02:24,516 , you've been doing this for quite some time. 39 00:02:24,546 --> 00:02:26,056 Actually, I didn't even ask you this. 40 00:02:26,116 --> 00:02:28,866 Like how long have you been doing CRO? 41 00:02:29,006 --> 00:02:29,956 Like, when did you start? 42 00:02:29,956 --> 00:02:30,996 How did you start it? 43 00:02:31,006 --> 00:02:32,016 How'd you get into it? 44 00:02:32,246 --> 00:02:32,686 All that. 45 00:02:32,691 --> 00:02:33,631 Yeah. 46 00:02:33,681 --> 00:02:34,251 good question. 47 00:02:34,251 --> 00:02:38,601 personally, I think I've been doing it for probably 12 or 13 years at this point. 48 00:02:38,651 --> 00:02:41,271 I don't know how I feel like I've been saying that for a long time. 49 00:02:41,271 --> 00:02:42,441 So maybe it's been more at this point. 50 00:02:42,691 --> 00:02:43,381 split base 51 00:02:43,401 --> 00:02:43,621 been 52 00:02:43,771 --> 00:02:44,821 stayed the same age. 53 00:02:44,821 --> 00:02:45,561 I think that's it. 54 00:02:46,501 --> 00:02:47,361 I never 55 00:02:47,366 --> 00:02:47,726 hold on. 56 00:02:47,766 --> 00:02:47,996 on. 57 00:02:48,036 --> 00:02:51,276 his website, he's I've been, I had my first company when I was 11 years old. 58 00:02:51,276 --> 00:02:53,506 So if you're not watching this on YouTube, that math. 59 00:02:54,056 --> 00:02:55,966 Is mapping correctly because 60 00:02:56,856 --> 00:02:58,836 there's a generational gap happening right 61 00:02:59,061 --> 00:02:59,221 I 62 00:02:59,221 --> 00:02:59,641 know. 63 00:03:00,361 --> 00:03:01,071 exactly. 64 00:03:01,591 --> 00:03:04,381 The split phase has been around maybe for about a decade or so now. 65 00:03:04,481 --> 00:03:08,641 and, it's funny because when I, got started into CRO, like I actually 66 00:03:08,651 --> 00:03:12,031 had, there was a time where I almost started a CRO agency and I didn't. 67 00:03:12,261 --> 00:03:14,161 And then I went in a completely different field. 68 00:03:14,161 --> 00:03:18,611 And then I came back, but I remember being a kid and I'm not kidding for 69 00:03:18,671 --> 00:03:21,371 just for fun during like summer day. 70 00:03:21,371 --> 00:03:25,121 Sometimes I would sit down at my computer and I would write fictional marketing 71 00:03:25,121 --> 00:03:29,501 plans and fictional ad campaigns for brands I would invent or whatever. 72 00:03:29,851 --> 00:03:32,931 And I took so much pleasure from that. 73 00:03:33,041 --> 00:03:35,601 And, not a lot of people knew about that. 74 00:03:35,601 --> 00:03:37,631 I think it was something that I kept a bit like secret, 75 00:03:37,641 --> 00:03:40,851 Wait, Raphael, you had friends or this was how you? 76 00:03:41,376 --> 00:03:42,326 No, I did. 77 00:03:42,326 --> 00:03:43,446 Yeah, I did have a lot 78 00:03:43,466 --> 00:03:44,996 He's like a very friendly guy. 79 00:03:45,006 --> 00:03:48,786 It's I just see him like, 10 years old, like writing fictional marketing plans 80 00:03:48,866 --> 00:03:50,486 in the company's room all by himself. 81 00:03:51,406 --> 00:03:53,906 but you know, I liked, I've always been quite creative. 82 00:03:53,906 --> 00:03:55,086 I always loved marketing. 83 00:03:55,086 --> 00:03:56,286 I'd love to geek out on that. 84 00:03:56,416 --> 00:03:57,086 There was a website. 85 00:03:57,086 --> 00:03:57,856 I don't know if it still exists. 86 00:03:57,876 --> 00:04:00,656 It was like ads of the world that when I'd be bored, I'd just go 87 00:04:00,811 --> 00:04:01,211 Yeah 88 00:04:01,866 --> 00:04:02,376 there. 89 00:04:02,496 --> 00:04:03,376 is it still around? 90 00:04:03,666 --> 00:04:04,426 Does that still exist? 91 00:04:05,446 --> 00:04:05,956 I haven't seen it 92 00:04:06,031 --> 00:04:07,441 Goes to google immediately 93 00:04:07,556 --> 00:04:10,246 Lauren will Google that as we're talking, but all right. 94 00:04:10,256 --> 00:04:12,296 So what age was that again? 95 00:04:12,306 --> 00:04:14,776 You, you said, all 96 00:04:15,076 --> 00:04:23,446 that specifically, I'm not sure, but it could be anywhere between 11 to 15, 16. 97 00:04:23,806 --> 00:04:27,816 I was also trying to figure out at one point, how to launch an online 98 00:04:27,826 --> 00:04:31,136 magic store, like an e commerce store, but there was no e commerce solution. 99 00:04:31,136 --> 00:04:31,526 That was 100 00:04:31,781 --> 00:04:33,771 and you still promise you had friends growing up. 101 00:04:34,006 --> 00:04:35,036 I still promise. 102 00:04:36,601 --> 00:04:37,051 I'm kidding. 103 00:04:37,051 --> 00:04:38,861 Of course Of course and people aren't good at magic. 104 00:04:38,861 --> 00:04:40,021 That's just a bad stereotype 105 00:04:40,321 --> 00:04:41,851 no, they don't need to get mad, 106 00:04:42,826 --> 00:04:42,906 right. 107 00:04:43,166 --> 00:04:44,016 They're just jealous. 108 00:04:44,201 --> 00:04:48,041 ultimately look like I just I love e commerce. 109 00:04:48,181 --> 00:04:48,891 I didn't know. 110 00:04:48,891 --> 00:04:52,471 I mean, it wasn't even really a thing back then, but I wanted to do something online. 111 00:04:52,481 --> 00:04:53,171 That was my thing. 112 00:04:53,191 --> 00:04:57,811 Like I was frustrated that I was a kid and I couldn't just go and start business. 113 00:04:57,881 --> 00:04:59,771 That really drove me nuts. 114 00:05:00,161 --> 00:05:01,781 And at one point, I'm not kidding. 115 00:05:01,931 --> 00:05:03,471 I think I was probably like 15 or so. 116 00:05:03,471 --> 00:05:07,111 I was like my, my dad's car and I started crying and I was like, 117 00:05:07,141 --> 00:05:11,986 dad, I just want to like, Start a hotel chain or run a business or do 118 00:05:11,986 --> 00:05:13,826 something, but I have to go to school. 119 00:05:14,951 --> 00:05:17,321 Oh, my God, that is so hysterical. 120 00:05:17,961 --> 00:05:18,381 You you've 121 00:05:18,381 --> 00:05:19,701 got to, Oh my God. 122 00:05:19,731 --> 00:05:25,441 that's that, I mean, that's not normal, which is fine because I think the most 123 00:05:25,441 --> 00:05:28,111 brilliant minds are actually not normal. 124 00:05:28,171 --> 00:05:30,011 That's abnormal in a good way. 125 00:05:30,376 --> 00:05:31,576 So get me, don't get me wrong. 126 00:05:31,946 --> 00:05:35,326 Cause that drive obviously led you to, to create split base and doing 127 00:05:35,326 --> 00:05:36,606 all the things you're doing right now. 128 00:05:36,946 --> 00:05:40,276 So that evolution, like you finally, I take it like you finished 129 00:05:40,346 --> 00:05:44,636 school or maybe you didn't, maybe you dropped out and you started 130 00:05:44,636 --> 00:05:44,876 doing 131 00:05:44,981 --> 00:05:50,051 was like yes done Canadian rules, you're allowed, let's pursue this. 132 00:05:50,706 --> 00:05:54,596 I mean, I finished my 12th grade at that point for the last 133 00:05:54,636 --> 00:05:56,096 two years of my high school. 134 00:05:56,096 --> 00:05:58,646 I was known as like the guy that would sometimes fly to New York 135 00:05:58,646 --> 00:06:01,726 to have business meetings and I am like from a small town in Canada. 136 00:06:02,076 --> 00:06:05,086 and I had a mentor at the time. 137 00:06:05,096 --> 00:06:07,336 incredible person, Dan Martell, which maybe. 138 00:06:07,566 --> 00:06:11,376 Some people have heard of and he was almost my neighbor, so he really 139 00:06:11,376 --> 00:06:16,086 pushed me to do hard things like booking a restaurant and saying 140 00:06:16,086 --> 00:06:18,456 tomorrow you're going to New York and you're going to sell out that thing. 141 00:06:18,456 --> 00:06:20,766 And I'm like, I don't know anyone there haven't been there in 10 years. 142 00:06:20,866 --> 00:06:21,676 what am I going to do? 143 00:06:21,746 --> 00:06:24,676 Anyways, that's a store for another day. 144 00:06:25,076 --> 00:06:29,746 But you know, that's that was kind of I wasn't a big fan 145 00:06:29,746 --> 00:06:31,036 of high school at that point. 146 00:06:31,096 --> 00:06:31,126 Okay. 147 00:06:31,516 --> 00:06:34,886 Much preferred to take this meetings in New York than anything else. 148 00:06:35,316 --> 00:06:35,416 is 149 00:06:35,466 --> 00:06:35,996 But 150 00:06:36,366 --> 00:06:38,366 did, you did actually do all that. 151 00:06:38,386 --> 00:06:39,556 So you carried through. 152 00:06:39,911 --> 00:06:45,031 Like you did actually book hotels and then you had seminars or what was that? 153 00:06:45,031 --> 00:06:46,171 I assume that's what it was. 154 00:06:46,226 --> 00:06:47,896 that event actually sold out. 155 00:06:48,096 --> 00:06:49,486 so that was a nice win. 156 00:06:49,876 --> 00:06:54,476 but yeah, I finished high school and I made the decision not To go 157 00:06:54,506 --> 00:06:58,506 to university, I was registered into an entrepreneurship program. 158 00:06:58,506 --> 00:07:02,916 I was like, why am I going to learn through books how to be 159 00:07:02,916 --> 00:07:06,116 an entrepreneur when I can just when I've already been doing it? 160 00:07:06,386 --> 00:07:10,546 and when I can do more of it instead of just being in a classroom. 161 00:07:10,946 --> 00:07:13,716 and I launched many failed businesses, right? 162 00:07:13,726 --> 00:07:18,101 But in the meantime, I was also like, Building websites in my spare time. 163 00:07:18,101 --> 00:07:21,031 And I was like, at that point, I was already knee deep into like 164 00:07:21,031 --> 00:07:24,651 conversion optimization because of previous failed startups that I was 165 00:07:24,651 --> 00:07:25,911 doing around the marketing space. 166 00:07:25,921 --> 00:07:27,631 And it really got me into that rabbit hole. 167 00:07:27,931 --> 00:07:32,731 And, Yeah, that was like the one thing in digital marketing that I liked the most. 168 00:07:32,741 --> 00:07:37,201 It was just how can I make things better, but also, how can I use 169 00:07:37,201 --> 00:07:40,471 my creativity to improve websites and make marketing better? 170 00:07:40,471 --> 00:07:43,981 And I preferred that over like even just starting things from scratch. 171 00:07:44,191 --> 00:07:47,991 And I think it was just very natural then to build a split base and say, 172 00:07:47,991 --> 00:07:50,921 Hey, we're a conversion optimization agency where we make existing 173 00:07:51,371 --> 00:07:53,871 websites and existing brands better. 174 00:07:54,151 --> 00:07:57,291 And, many years later, well, here I am. 175 00:07:58,481 --> 00:08:01,351 So, I mean, it's, it's an interesting journey. 176 00:08:01,351 --> 00:08:03,241 How did you get your first client? 177 00:08:03,271 --> 00:08:05,331 Did you just, I mean, it sounds like you had a few failed 178 00:08:05,331 --> 00:08:07,671 businesses as I did as well. 179 00:08:08,011 --> 00:08:09,211 I mean, the point is, is that kind of. 180 00:08:09,526 --> 00:08:13,346 Sort of stumbled into this, but you are very focused on it. 181 00:08:13,706 --> 00:08:16,846 You were actually building sites and then maybe running traffic to them and 182 00:08:16,846 --> 00:08:20,316 figuring out, all right, well, this thing that I can do after the click 183 00:08:20,316 --> 00:08:24,896 actually really makes as much of a difference in the overall success of 184 00:08:24,906 --> 00:08:27,736 the business as does like how much traffic is actually coming to my site. 185 00:08:27,746 --> 00:08:29,426 Is that sort of, was the evolution of it? 186 00:08:29,426 --> 00:08:29,986 take me through it. 187 00:08:30,126 --> 00:08:30,276 Yeah. 188 00:08:30,276 --> 00:08:30,666 Okay. 189 00:08:31,041 --> 00:08:33,441 Yeah, I mean, it was hard, I only had one job. 190 00:08:33,541 --> 00:08:36,321 I left that job with 5, 000 bucks in my bank account. 191 00:08:36,631 --> 00:08:39,411 And I said, you know what, I can make this marketing thing work. 192 00:08:39,701 --> 00:08:44,471 I had a lot of confidence, which is great because, it definitely 193 00:08:44,471 --> 00:08:46,211 looking back wasn't a lot of money. 194 00:08:46,261 --> 00:08:50,481 And I had a limited timeline for, my parents were not going to pay 195 00:08:50,481 --> 00:08:51,781 for my lifestyle or anything. 196 00:08:51,831 --> 00:08:57,341 My rent, fortunately, was about 400 bucks a month, back then, so, I 197 00:08:57,341 --> 00:08:59,601 had a bit of a runway, but it was, 198 00:08:59,716 --> 00:09:00,096 months. 199 00:09:00,426 --> 00:09:00,726 Yeah. 200 00:09:00,941 --> 00:09:01,851 exactly, right? 201 00:09:03,121 --> 00:09:03,411 but it 202 00:09:03,491 --> 00:09:05,821 Right, but no food, no food, no shoes, no gaming. 203 00:09:05,926 --> 00:09:06,786 can't eat anything. 204 00:09:06,876 --> 00:09:07,236 Right. 205 00:09:07,501 --> 00:09:09,021 gotta add that on top. 206 00:09:09,221 --> 00:09:11,291 and I, and I also, I'd like nice things. 207 00:09:11,301 --> 00:09:14,271 So that was difficult, but, I really had to figure things out. 208 00:09:14,271 --> 00:09:17,261 I was like, like this is, I just felt like my life was on the line in that 209 00:09:17,261 --> 00:09:20,781 sense where I had to prove myself that I was able to build a business, that 210 00:09:20,781 --> 00:09:24,171 was one thing after so many failed attempts at different businesses and 211 00:09:24,171 --> 00:09:28,221 I had some successes as well, but you know, I was like this type of like in 212 00:09:28,241 --> 00:09:31,001 marketing, in this space, I need to. 213 00:09:31,251 --> 00:09:32,161 make this work. 214 00:09:32,411 --> 00:09:35,231 So it was back in the days of like where blogging was really 215 00:09:35,231 --> 00:09:36,955 big, right, like guest blogging. 216 00:09:36,955 --> 00:09:42,181 So I would write ridiculous blog posts that were like 70 pages long. 217 00:09:42,811 --> 00:09:46,151 I would guest blog all the time, even though I didn't really like it. 218 00:09:46,181 --> 00:09:50,511 It just felt like a way to put some of my ideas and my research. 219 00:09:50,611 --> 00:09:52,351 And at the same time, it's funny because you learn at the 220 00:09:52,351 --> 00:09:53,721 same time as you're doing that. 221 00:09:54,061 --> 00:09:54,856 And yeah. 222 00:09:55,886 --> 00:10:00,786 and I would record some videos and I tried so many things for almost 223 00:10:01,416 --> 00:10:05,056 Nothing to happen for a very long time and then kind of out of nowhere. 224 00:10:05,266 --> 00:10:08,486 eventually I don't even know how, we got that first client. 225 00:10:08,766 --> 00:10:11,716 I don't even remember who was the first or which was the second. 226 00:10:11,776 --> 00:10:15,206 but you know, it took a while and even when we got those first clients, 227 00:10:15,236 --> 00:10:18,626 it's like without a portfolio, it's really, really, really hard. 228 00:10:19,011 --> 00:10:23,081 To build an agency that's based on knowledge in, what you're able to achieve. 229 00:10:23,651 --> 00:10:31,511 So, but you know, Hey, I, I did everything I could and, looking back, I mean, it 230 00:10:31,511 --> 00:10:33,031 would have been really easy to quit. 231 00:10:33,596 --> 00:10:39,006 But I think I'm just really, really glad that I didn't because if we look at 232 00:10:39,086 --> 00:10:43,496 where the company is today, like we've run optimization programs for some of 233 00:10:43,496 --> 00:10:47,176 the best known DTC brands around right? 234 00:10:47,196 --> 00:10:47,846 Like Dr. 235 00:10:47,846 --> 00:10:52,556 Squash and once upon a farm and so many cool companies that we 236 00:10:52,556 --> 00:10:55,686 got to work with over the years and still work with today as well. 237 00:10:56,016 --> 00:10:56,316 Right? 238 00:10:56,346 --> 00:11:00,686 And that would never have happened if I if in that first year and a half. 239 00:11:01,066 --> 00:11:04,766 I mean, gotta say, even the first three years were incredibly hard, just 240 00:11:04,926 --> 00:11:08,016 to, to get more than three clients, it felt like it took forever, to have 241 00:11:08,016 --> 00:11:11,926 more than three clients at a time, but, you continue and then you, you succeed 242 00:11:12,136 --> 00:11:13,436 How many times did you want to quit? 243 00:11:13,686 --> 00:11:14,586 Do you think in your head? 244 00:11:14,587 --> 00:11:16,487 Yeah. 245 00:11:16,806 --> 00:11:23,796 than I can count, but you know what I realized the only job I ever had, okay, I 246 00:11:23,796 --> 00:11:30,961 had it for nine months and, It scared me more than running my own business and the 247 00:11:30,961 --> 00:11:37,421 uncertainties that comes with it, because I felt if I'm, if I have a job, I am not. 248 00:11:38,066 --> 00:11:42,886 In control of what happens to me in the sense that I can work my ass off. 249 00:11:42,916 --> 00:11:44,126 I can work less. 250 00:11:44,176 --> 00:11:49,046 And it's really a gamble on whether I like, did I really even 251 00:11:49,046 --> 00:11:50,496 want to climb inside a company? 252 00:11:50,496 --> 00:11:53,716 Like I wanted to like work on my ideas. 253 00:11:53,996 --> 00:11:55,151 I wanted to have the power. 254 00:11:55,781 --> 00:12:01,031 Possibility to make more money if I really put my time and my efforts into it. 255 00:12:01,031 --> 00:12:03,381 And it's not something that you can always, I mean, nothing 256 00:12:03,391 --> 00:12:04,401 doesn't happen with the job. 257 00:12:05,421 --> 00:12:08,541 I look at our top employees and, they've, they've grown through the company like 258 00:12:08,561 --> 00:12:10,871 really quickly and, and they've earned it. 259 00:12:11,671 --> 00:12:12,921 I'm an entrepreneur at heart. 260 00:12:13,071 --> 00:12:13,391 Right. 261 00:12:13,411 --> 00:12:14,941 And for me, it's I have an idea. 262 00:12:14,951 --> 00:12:16,161 I want to make it happen. 263 00:12:16,241 --> 00:12:20,841 And when I don't have full control over my own destiny, it stresses me out. 264 00:12:21,221 --> 00:12:24,011 So for me, the uncertainty of running a business. 265 00:12:24,077 --> 00:12:30,146 And my confidence in figuring things out was greater than, 266 00:12:31,746 --> 00:12:33,246 what I would get through a job. 267 00:12:33,246 --> 00:12:34,346 So it kept me going. 268 00:12:35,216 --> 00:12:38,896 Yeah, I, well, I mean, you're talking to, we're three entrepreneurs here. 269 00:12:39,026 --> 00:12:44,106 Like we, I think it's counterintuitive to think that there's actually more 270 00:12:44,106 --> 00:12:46,026 security in starting your own business. 271 00:12:46,066 --> 00:12:50,086 The hardest part is getting it off the ground and getting a product 272 00:12:50,086 --> 00:12:53,606 and or service that people actually want and will pay you money for. 273 00:12:54,186 --> 00:12:56,876 And then actually starting to pay your expenses. 274 00:12:56,876 --> 00:12:58,696 And then the next step is like, all right, 275 00:12:58,736 --> 00:13:00,586 Sounds like a lot of more hard parts. 276 00:13:00,586 --> 00:13:02,096 You're like, and then there's a new hard part. 277 00:13:02,106 --> 00:13:03,566 And then there's a new part for it. 278 00:13:04,061 --> 00:13:05,751 But it was starting a job. 279 00:13:05,751 --> 00:13:10,051 It's like, you know, you have to train you all these, these other things, like 280 00:13:10,051 --> 00:13:20,151 the, the cost of the risk of the business running aground is less stressful than me 281 00:13:20,151 --> 00:13:22,171 not being in control of my own destiny, 282 00:13:22,306 --> 00:13:22,636 Yeah. 283 00:13:22,666 --> 00:13:24,296 A hundred percent. 284 00:13:24,441 --> 00:13:25,361 a hundred percent. 285 00:13:25,596 --> 00:13:28,156 And I never realized that I just couldn't figure out what the 286 00:13:28,156 --> 00:13:29,676 hell I wanted to do with my life. 287 00:13:29,686 --> 00:13:31,946 But, you know, I was fired three times. 288 00:13:31,946 --> 00:13:33,836 So, I mean, I had to, I had to choose something. 289 00:13:33,846 --> 00:13:37,056 I couldn't really have a boss, but no fascinating. 290 00:13:37,066 --> 00:13:41,366 So child prodigy, you really were a child prodigy really to start off. 291 00:13:41,766 --> 00:13:44,886 And then you turn this thing into a super successful business with some of 292 00:13:44,896 --> 00:13:49,126 the biggest brands, like really cool DTC brands, which we want to get into here. 293 00:13:49,526 --> 00:13:53,726 within the context of, I think the, the, when we. 294 00:13:53,936 --> 00:13:58,546 When we started today's show, we talked more about like CRO, the word itself. 295 00:13:59,106 --> 00:14:03,466 And yes, that is the industry phrase, but it's so much more than that. 296 00:14:03,476 --> 00:14:09,156 Maybe let's, let's discuss that because I hate it when people say CRO. 297 00:14:09,156 --> 00:14:12,176 And even when we were talking, I was like, do you mind if I say CRO? 298 00:14:12,206 --> 00:14:13,446 Cause it's almost like. 299 00:14:13,906 --> 00:14:17,076 It's, it's not really about that. 300 00:14:17,096 --> 00:14:20,266 So maybe just explain that in general and sort of clear up some 301 00:14:20,276 --> 00:14:22,736 misconceptions about the word itself. 302 00:14:23,296 --> 00:14:26,816 Yeah, I think there's been ups and downs with the use of that word, because when 303 00:14:26,816 --> 00:14:31,146 we look at when CRO started happening, which is, Jay, I believe the Eisenberg's 304 00:14:31,156 --> 00:14:35,556 brother around the 2000s or so that started that that came up with that term. 305 00:14:35,686 --> 00:14:38,586 and it was a very different thing back then. 306 00:14:38,646 --> 00:14:42,316 And even when I started doing CRO, like it wasn't very popular amongst 307 00:14:42,316 --> 00:14:45,406 e commerce brands, like only the big, big brands or the enterprises 308 00:14:45,646 --> 00:14:50,326 of this world really focused in or invested in CRO, and it was hard to 309 00:14:50,406 --> 00:14:53,716 convince them to do so, and we went through a period. 310 00:14:53,716 --> 00:14:56,056 I think we're like, okay, more and more brands started to learn 311 00:14:56,056 --> 00:14:57,796 about conversion optimization. 312 00:14:57,826 --> 00:15:00,056 And then they started to realize that, hey, it's not 313 00:15:00,056 --> 00:15:01,146 just about the conversion rate. 314 00:15:01,166 --> 00:15:01,816 It's about really. 315 00:15:02,841 --> 00:15:07,581 It's really about having a process that helps us understand which decisions 316 00:15:07,581 --> 00:15:11,571 to make, in a data driven way through experimentation and, and, and through 317 00:15:11,571 --> 00:15:13,971 data and through data and insights. 318 00:15:14,221 --> 00:15:19,001 And then we hit then a point where all of a sudden, like Shopify 319 00:15:19,011 --> 00:15:20,571 really, really, really boomed. 320 00:15:20,791 --> 00:15:25,092 And then, All of a sudden Twitter and all the social media were like, we're, 321 00:15:25,142 --> 00:15:29,552 we got into this content age, which before it was about blog posts, right? 322 00:15:29,572 --> 00:15:32,422 Like it was about like, you talk about CRO, you'd write like a really, 323 00:15:32,422 --> 00:15:34,522 really deep and detailed blog post. 324 00:15:34,722 --> 00:15:38,422 And we got to that point where, where I felt like, okay, the industry needs 325 00:15:38,502 --> 00:15:42,822 a lot of education, but the information that was available, I mean, I won't 326 00:15:42,822 --> 00:15:44,282 say it was always like long blog posts. 327 00:15:44,302 --> 00:15:46,532 Cause there was a lot of, more like Neil Patel type. 328 00:15:47,507 --> 00:15:51,947 mishmash of content that that was a bit random and not necessarily factual. 329 00:15:52,347 --> 00:15:56,397 but now we're in the tick tock age, right? 330 00:15:56,567 --> 00:15:59,277 Where information is dumbed down even more. 331 00:15:59,297 --> 00:16:03,057 It's everything is shorts, YouTube shorts, LinkedIn shorts, Twitter. 332 00:16:03,357 --> 00:16:05,737 So forget about those like super long blog posts. 333 00:16:05,737 --> 00:16:13,812 Now CRO has been simplified to get people to so it's it's more easily understandable 334 00:16:13,832 --> 00:16:15,642 for the masses, which is great. 335 00:16:15,802 --> 00:16:20,662 I love that the adoption and, brands know that they need to do CRO. 336 00:16:20,682 --> 00:16:21,882 That's fantastic. 337 00:16:22,122 --> 00:16:29,172 Right on the, I guess the, the cons that this brings is that, a lot of the 338 00:16:29,172 --> 00:16:33,732 advice still remains very dumbed down or a lot of what's being shared out there 339 00:16:33,762 --> 00:16:36,542 becomes, just for attention grabbing. 340 00:16:36,932 --> 00:16:38,832 So the term CRO, which I'm, what. 341 00:16:39,517 --> 00:16:42,757 Which at one point became like this big debate of like 342 00:16:43,177 --> 00:16:44,557 conversion rate optimization. 343 00:16:44,777 --> 00:16:48,947 That's not what we do because it's so much more than the conversion rate. 344 00:16:48,947 --> 00:16:51,617 We're looking to optimize, for the lifetime value. 345 00:16:51,617 --> 00:16:54,127 We're also looking at AOV, right? 346 00:16:54,127 --> 00:16:56,017 We're also looking at any other metric. 347 00:16:56,017 --> 00:17:00,337 Is conversion rate really the one metric that trumps everything above all? 348 00:17:00,597 --> 00:17:00,857 Right? 349 00:17:00,857 --> 00:17:01,827 And the answer is no. 350 00:17:02,537 --> 00:17:04,196 But then now we, how do you explain that? 351 00:17:04,287 --> 00:17:09,717 Explain that in, 15 second short without losing people's attention when 352 00:17:09,717 --> 00:17:13,887 what gets engagement in shorts and everything now is like, here's 10 test 353 00:17:13,887 --> 00:17:15,577 ideas you can steal and copy right away. 354 00:17:16,367 --> 00:17:16,547 sorry. 355 00:17:16,547 --> 00:17:20,737 I'm, I, I kinda went on and on, but philosophically speaking, I 356 00:17:20,767 --> 00:17:25,037 think this is what's been happening to the term CRO and the industry. 357 00:17:25,472 --> 00:17:26,222 Yeah, it's interesting. 358 00:17:26,222 --> 00:17:30,392 The, I, I was trying to think of the book that I first read 359 00:17:31,372 --> 00:17:33,812 and I think it was by Tim Ash. 360 00:17:35,267 --> 00:17:37,497 And it was landing page optimization. 361 00:17:37,497 --> 00:17:41,057 It was back at 2010, 2011, thereabouts. 362 00:17:41,767 --> 00:17:46,897 And I, I read it because I was like, that's really cool. 363 00:17:46,927 --> 00:17:50,097 Cause I was starting to get into this and I was, I forget at that point in 364 00:17:50,137 --> 00:17:52,647 time, where I actually was in my career. 365 00:17:52,647 --> 00:17:56,427 But anyway, I think this is like right around the time I got fired, for the 366 00:17:56,427 --> 00:17:58,137 last time and started this whole thing. 367 00:17:58,447 --> 00:18:00,331 the point was, is that I read that book. 368 00:18:00,642 --> 00:18:02,162 And I was like, landing page optimization. 369 00:18:02,162 --> 00:18:03,172 This is pretty amazing. 370 00:18:03,182 --> 00:18:04,462 And then I met him at a conference. 371 00:18:05,672 --> 00:18:07,522 I was like, this is so cool. 372 00:18:07,732 --> 00:18:11,332 And then I started to do it like for about, I was an affiliate 373 00:18:11,852 --> 00:18:13,692 and I realized, Holy crap. 374 00:18:13,692 --> 00:18:18,742 It's not, I, I read that book and I studied it and I made 375 00:18:18,742 --> 00:18:20,002 notes and everything else. 376 00:18:20,042 --> 00:18:21,952 And it was, it wasn't on like a Kindle back then. 377 00:18:21,952 --> 00:18:23,012 It was actual physical book. 378 00:18:23,012 --> 00:18:25,752 I had to go to Barnes and Nobles to go by and. 379 00:18:25,982 --> 00:18:32,172 It was then where I started to optimize my, scammy affiliate pages. 380 00:18:32,172 --> 00:18:33,852 I was like, holy crap. 381 00:18:33,852 --> 00:18:35,442 I had that realization. 382 00:18:35,842 --> 00:18:38,402 And then when we started our agency, we just did everything. 383 00:18:38,802 --> 00:18:40,842 It was like, people paid us like, I don't know what it was. 384 00:18:40,862 --> 00:18:41,532 Two grand a month. 385 00:18:41,532 --> 00:18:41,862 I did. 386 00:18:42,022 --> 00:18:46,532 Everything from the ad all the way to the landing page optimization CR like CRO. 387 00:18:46,562 --> 00:18:50,532 And then all of a sudden, somehow it changed from LPO to CRO 388 00:18:50,532 --> 00:18:51,532 somewhere in the middle there. 389 00:18:51,532 --> 00:18:54,552 And I'm kind of lost like when it actually did change. 390 00:18:55,722 --> 00:18:57,752 Now everyone is like conversion rate optimization. 391 00:18:57,782 --> 00:18:59,712 that's the thing I need to increase my conversion rate. 392 00:18:59,712 --> 00:19:03,362 When at the end of the day, it's more monetization for the business. 393 00:19:03,872 --> 00:19:04,222 It's. 394 00:19:04,377 --> 00:19:06,927 It's LTV, it's all the things that we're going to talk 395 00:19:06,937 --> 00:19:08,217 about here on today's episode. 396 00:19:08,257 --> 00:19:12,967 So I think like it happened maybe in the mid 2010s, like all of a sudden people 397 00:19:12,977 --> 00:19:18,367 started switching over , towards CRO as opposed to, other forms of optimization. 398 00:19:18,648 --> 00:19:22,658 and I think here's the deal, at the end of the day, right. 399 00:19:23,328 --> 00:19:25,778 I don't like that term, but I still use it. 400 00:19:26,298 --> 00:19:31,698 And I'm partially guilty, I guess, in some sort of way for the fact that 401 00:19:31,698 --> 00:19:33,518 we're still using it in the industry. 402 00:19:33,528 --> 00:19:37,168 And I know it's like purists really want to stop using that term. 403 00:19:37,538 --> 00:19:42,068 The issue obviously is if you stop using that term and you call it something else, 404 00:19:42,098 --> 00:19:44,378 well, people understand what it is, right? 405 00:19:44,558 --> 00:19:48,418 At this point, I care more about people caring about CRO 406 00:19:48,418 --> 00:19:49,688 and understanding what it is. 407 00:19:49,688 --> 00:19:53,308 And then once we have their attention, we, then the proper 408 00:19:53,308 --> 00:19:55,883 education, That can follow. 409 00:19:56,233 --> 00:20:01,703 I think I prefer that than really gatekeeping and really being, very, for, I 410 00:20:01,703 --> 00:20:04,953 don't know, I'm looking for my words here, but, instead of just overcomplicating 411 00:20:04,963 --> 00:20:07,313 things and then saying, Oh, no, this is not called CR for that reason. 412 00:20:07,313 --> 00:20:08,653 And so, and so on. 413 00:20:08,923 --> 00:20:09,213 Right? 414 00:20:09,213 --> 00:20:13,853 I know there's been a lot of attempts from agencies rebrand it as well, 415 00:20:13,873 --> 00:20:17,388 which, but at the end of the day, people just still see it as okay, well, okay. 416 00:20:17,538 --> 00:20:18,558 They see through that, right? 417 00:20:18,558 --> 00:20:21,258 It's okay, well, yeah, but that's just you're doing CRO. 418 00:20:21,608 --> 00:20:23,368 we've even tried at one point. 419 00:20:23,368 --> 00:20:26,478 I don't even remember what we called it, but at the end of the day, 420 00:20:26,488 --> 00:20:27,678 it's like, how do you explain that? 421 00:20:27,878 --> 00:20:31,168 You're just making the job harder for yourself when it comes to 422 00:20:31,448 --> 00:20:32,778 explaining and selling that. 423 00:20:32,858 --> 00:20:36,470 so it's an interesting dilemma, but you know, we'll debating on, should 424 00:20:36,470 --> 00:20:40,238 we call it CRO or CEO or whatever? 425 00:20:40,808 --> 00:20:44,768 Make the world a, well, I don't want to say make the world a better 426 00:20:44,768 --> 00:20:47,868 place, but is that, is that on its own going to grow a companies? 427 00:20:48,098 --> 00:20:48,478 No. 428 00:20:48,588 --> 00:20:51,228 So at the end of the day, I care more about what happens on the 429 00:20:51,228 --> 00:20:54,028 websites and the process and everything than what we call it. 430 00:20:55,003 --> 00:20:55,813 Well, let's get into it. 431 00:20:55,813 --> 00:20:56,523 Like what? 432 00:20:56,573 --> 00:20:57,153 So. 433 00:20:57,683 --> 00:21:01,133 But when you're looking at a client, the client comes to you and they say, 434 00:21:01,133 --> 00:21:06,553 Hey, I need to, increase my conversion rate or the thing that they want isn't 435 00:21:06,553 --> 00:21:07,803 necessarily the thing that they need. 436 00:21:07,833 --> 00:21:08,123 Right? 437 00:21:08,553 --> 00:21:09,943 So how do you view it? 438 00:21:09,943 --> 00:21:14,733 what's the, what, how do you view that whole idea of how can I make 439 00:21:14,733 --> 00:21:17,133 your business more efficient? 440 00:21:18,013 --> 00:21:22,013 Making more money, making more profit, all that in the, within the context of this 441 00:21:22,043 --> 00:21:29,463 predefined, acronym that the marketing world has created, that's called CRO. 442 00:21:29,518 --> 00:21:33,348 Well, conversion rate is not terrible. 443 00:21:33,448 --> 00:21:37,438 It's not like we still want to increase conversion rates, right? 444 00:21:37,708 --> 00:21:41,318 but the thing is, it's not the only thing that you should optimize. 445 00:21:41,318 --> 00:21:44,848 And conversion optimization is not just about increasing that metric. 446 00:21:45,478 --> 00:21:49,838 If we talk about increasing metrics, well, reducing your acquisition costs, 447 00:21:49,848 --> 00:21:54,388 increasing conversion rate, increasing AOV, increasing lifetime value, right? 448 00:21:54,438 --> 00:21:57,028 All those things are, Equally important. 449 00:21:57,418 --> 00:22:00,488 If you want to dive a little deeper, depending on your circumstances, and then 450 00:22:00,488 --> 00:22:01,918 there's a million ways to look at this. 451 00:22:01,918 --> 00:22:02,128 Right? 452 00:22:02,128 --> 00:22:07,358 But let's say you realize that your business would succeed a lot more if 453 00:22:07,358 --> 00:22:11,438 you increase your ratio of subscribers versus people who buy from you one time. 454 00:22:11,748 --> 00:22:12,058 Right? 455 00:22:12,058 --> 00:22:16,163 Well, The goal of your conversion optimization methodology, which 456 00:22:16,163 --> 00:22:17,593 is what it makes no sense. 457 00:22:17,863 --> 00:22:20,833 The goal of that conversion rate optimization process is not to 458 00:22:20,833 --> 00:22:21,943 increase the conversion rate. 459 00:22:22,153 --> 00:22:27,883 It might be to just, okay, how do we get more people to subscribe versus, by 460 00:22:27,883 --> 00:22:33,973 one time, conversion optimization can be about, making, optimizing the website. 461 00:22:33,973 --> 00:22:36,083 So returning customers, come back. 462 00:22:36,293 --> 00:22:37,393 More often, right? 463 00:22:37,393 --> 00:22:40,853 It could also be to increase the frequency of people buying from you. 464 00:22:41,073 --> 00:22:44,823 it can be so many, so many and so many things. 465 00:22:45,173 --> 00:22:49,523 And conversion rate is one thing, but I think we also need to look at 466 00:22:49,543 --> 00:22:53,193 what is a conversion rate and which conversion rate are we looking at? 467 00:22:53,603 --> 00:22:56,583 Because when people think of a conversion rate, they look at their Shopify 468 00:22:56,583 --> 00:22:59,393 dashboards or just their, GA dashboards. 469 00:23:00,018 --> 00:23:03,458 And they see one metric that's always there and it's conversion rate, and they 470 00:23:03,458 --> 00:23:05,458 see it almost on a day to day basis. 471 00:23:05,848 --> 00:23:13,898 The reality is that that metric on that dashboard is the biggest, not 472 00:23:13,908 --> 00:23:17,208 misconception, but it's just it's the biggest lie you could have. 473 00:23:17,218 --> 00:23:20,598 it's the worst metric you could have to run your business because 474 00:23:21,443 --> 00:23:26,093 depending on how Facebook's own algorithm is behaving that day, your 475 00:23:26,093 --> 00:23:28,153 conversion rate will be impacted. 476 00:23:28,413 --> 00:23:31,853 The creatives we are launching, the audiences that are being targeted, 477 00:23:32,013 --> 00:23:34,493 the email campaigns, whether you launch it one day or you don't 478 00:23:34,503 --> 00:23:38,283 have an email campaign the other day, the time of the year, right? 479 00:23:38,493 --> 00:23:41,773 All of that will impact your conversion rate. 480 00:23:42,418 --> 00:23:46,508 And, in a way that your website might not even make a difference in the sense that 481 00:23:46,518 --> 00:23:50,778 you could have the same website, not touch it, the same products, and your conversion 482 00:23:50,778 --> 00:23:54,888 rate would fluctuate month after month, day after day, year after year. 483 00:23:55,058 --> 00:23:59,708 Right, but because of factors that are completely unrelated to your website. 484 00:24:00,318 --> 00:24:05,518 So, if you focus on, hey, I want to double my conversion rate or increase 485 00:24:05,518 --> 00:24:08,388 it by 20%, it may not even be doable. 486 00:24:08,933 --> 00:24:10,753 Like it might not be doable. 487 00:24:10,753 --> 00:24:11,973 You could, yes. 488 00:24:12,658 --> 00:24:17,168 Potentially have more people convert, increase the conversion rate of a specific 489 00:24:17,168 --> 00:24:22,108 channel on a specific page, increase ads to cart, right, but maybe your global 490 00:24:22,118 --> 00:24:25,918 site conversion rate is going to keep going down if you're increasing your ad 491 00:24:25,918 --> 00:24:29,818 spend just because you're increasing the amount of people you're advertising to 492 00:24:30,008 --> 00:24:33,728 and you're not targeting bottom of funnel people anymore and you're targeting colder 493 00:24:33,728 --> 00:24:38,818 audiences and just by nature, Well, there are people that are less likely to convert 494 00:24:38,828 --> 00:24:41,818 and therefore your site wide conversion rate is going to go down a little bit. 495 00:24:42,303 --> 00:24:46,363 so yeah, the site wide conversion rate hides many averages. 496 00:24:46,413 --> 00:24:50,083 It hides a desktop versus mobile, which are entirely different conversion rates. 497 00:24:50,343 --> 00:24:52,043 It hides it from a channel perspective. 498 00:24:52,043 --> 00:24:56,613 It hides it from an audience or segment, basis, right? 499 00:24:56,633 --> 00:24:58,143 So it's all something that we have to consider. 500 00:24:58,893 --> 00:25:02,713 So if somebody comes to you, I love the idea of, of, and this is, 501 00:25:02,713 --> 00:25:04,803 this happens to us quite a bit. 502 00:25:04,813 --> 00:25:07,083 It's I need, I need Facebook ads from you guys. 503 00:25:07,173 --> 00:25:08,103 I need Google ads. 504 00:25:10,478 --> 00:25:16,418 Okay, that's great that we get them in the door kind of that way, but it's like, 505 00:25:16,418 --> 00:25:18,998 what, it's a difference between what they want and actually what they need. 506 00:25:19,008 --> 00:25:21,358 So they come to you and they say, all right, well, my, my website 507 00:25:21,358 --> 00:25:25,138 conversion rate is 1 percent and that stinks, Raphael, or maybe it's 0. 508 00:25:25,138 --> 00:25:27,868 5 percent because that's my Google analytics say, like, , fix it. 509 00:25:28,563 --> 00:25:32,903 Give me maybe an example of, I got a couple of different ways or maybe 510 00:25:32,903 --> 00:25:35,733 a couple of different examples that you've done this through different 511 00:25:35,733 --> 00:25:39,883 businesses that they use that North Star, that metric that staring them in 512 00:25:39,883 --> 00:25:44,143 the face every time they go into GA or into Shopify, when it's actually the 513 00:25:44,143 --> 00:25:48,143 wrong metric and you found something that's completely different and then. 514 00:25:48,528 --> 00:25:53,648 Changed not necessarily the course of history here, but it may be increased 515 00:25:53,648 --> 00:25:59,248 in a, in a noticeable way or a very impactful way, their business as a whole. 516 00:26:00,158 --> 00:26:03,858 Yeah, well, I'll give you an example of a recent test we conducted, right? 517 00:26:03,928 --> 00:26:06,018 Obviously, we're hired to increase conversions. 518 00:26:06,348 --> 00:26:10,588 Now we have this client that sells supplements and then you, they sent 519 00:26:10,598 --> 00:26:13,568 everybody to this landing page and it's got three different plans. 520 00:26:13,798 --> 00:26:16,888 You can buy one time or you can subscribe, right? 521 00:26:17,173 --> 00:26:20,333 Now we're thinking, okay, well, if we have three different plans and 522 00:26:20,353 --> 00:26:23,553 each have different options, are we, is that something that could 523 00:26:23,553 --> 00:26:25,713 lead to analysis paralysis, right? 524 00:26:25,723 --> 00:26:28,913 Do we have, would it be better to reduce the options? 525 00:26:29,083 --> 00:26:32,913 And then is there a plan that we should technically push people towards, right? 526 00:26:33,053 --> 00:26:35,763 in order to, yeah, increase conversion, but also increase 527 00:26:35,863 --> 00:26:37,323 just the value of those customers. 528 00:26:37,363 --> 00:26:41,703 you say plan those products are those like, what specifically is that 529 00:26:41,743 --> 00:26:43,353 without getting into too specific? 530 00:26:43,743 --> 00:26:47,603 yeah, so it's, each each, I guess there's three packages, right? 531 00:26:47,603 --> 00:26:52,363 So one time order than a smaller quantity than a bigger quantity and 532 00:26:52,403 --> 00:26:54,573 each can be one time or subscribe. 533 00:26:54,773 --> 00:26:57,473 The subscription plans are all different as well, right? 534 00:26:57,763 --> 00:26:59,073 so then we're trying to understand. 535 00:26:59,073 --> 00:27:05,938 Okay, well, If we just are hired to increase conversion rate, if we just, if 536 00:27:05,938 --> 00:27:11,718 we were to stick to that term, right, we just remove a plan or change the plans 537 00:27:11,718 --> 00:27:15,318 and look for the highest conversion rate on that landing page based on that. 538 00:27:15,998 --> 00:27:19,338 But that would be a big mistake because here's what happened. 539 00:27:19,778 --> 00:27:22,788 Ultimately, well, when we look. 540 00:27:23,233 --> 00:27:27,423 At those plans, well, you have people that subscribe and you have people 541 00:27:27,423 --> 00:27:31,443 that you know, buy the one time products, they'll have different values. 542 00:27:31,833 --> 00:27:35,523 Well, each subscription plan have different churn rates. 543 00:27:35,723 --> 00:27:38,823 And each of those plans have different lifetime values. 544 00:27:39,383 --> 00:27:44,693 If we don't take that under consideration, and we just start optimizing for the 545 00:27:44,733 --> 00:27:51,283 upfront conversion rate on the landing page, what could happen is that we remove 546 00:27:51,828 --> 00:27:55,818 You know, the packages are the plans that had the lowest conversion rate. 547 00:27:55,978 --> 00:28:00,238 We keep the one that has upfront the highest conversion rate, but what if that 548 00:28:00,308 --> 00:28:07,048 plan ultimately has the highest churn rate or over the course of six months 549 00:28:07,188 --> 00:28:12,258 is the one that leads to the lowest lifetime value that is entirely possible. 550 00:28:12,258 --> 00:28:14,248 It happens every single day. 551 00:28:14,518 --> 00:28:19,718 And yet if we just focused on conversion rate, we'd miss the That entire part 552 00:28:19,718 --> 00:28:24,318 of the story, so it would look like a win because up front, it looks like 553 00:28:24,338 --> 00:28:31,318 on the day of the first purchase, we have, we make more money, but then you 554 00:28:31,318 --> 00:28:36,738 would actually lose out quite a bit over the next couple of months, right? 555 00:28:36,968 --> 00:28:38,318 So that's a great example. 556 00:28:38,318 --> 00:28:40,503 I think where it's just And then there are so many businesses 557 00:28:40,503 --> 00:28:41,653 that offer subscription. 558 00:28:42,063 --> 00:28:46,803 So it's like if you, if you do test for that, right, are you taking 559 00:28:46,803 --> 00:28:50,003 under consideration the other metrics and especially lifetime value? 560 00:28:50,003 --> 00:28:53,278 Yeah. 561 00:28:53,278 --> 00:28:54,668 fired by the client? 562 00:28:56,288 --> 00:28:56,588 Seriously? 563 00:28:56,668 --> 00:28:58,428 that's the operative question because they're like, well, I 564 00:28:58,428 --> 00:29:02,588 hired him to increase my conversion rate, but I don't really know. 565 00:29:02,898 --> 00:29:05,988 What he's doing, like, how do you relay that? 566 00:29:06,398 --> 00:29:08,748 And I always sort of come back to that operative question. 567 00:29:08,758 --> 00:29:11,388 I was like, as agency owners, like you always want to have lifetime 568 00:29:11,398 --> 00:29:16,308 value for your clients, them stay on for a long period of time because 569 00:29:16,318 --> 00:29:19,008 you can continue to optimize and help scale and grow their business. 570 00:29:19,008 --> 00:29:22,898 But in that case, you were hired for what one thing that they thought. 571 00:29:23,288 --> 00:29:26,408 When in fact it probably wasn't the thing that they really needed. 572 00:29:26,428 --> 00:29:30,108 So what was the process there and the communication with the client to get 573 00:29:30,108 --> 00:29:33,188 them to understand that it's bigger than just a conversion rate thing? 574 00:29:33,928 --> 00:29:40,278 I think you're both, going to relate to this, but ultimately, right, I think with 575 00:29:40,298 --> 00:29:45,518 any type of agency business, it's about how do you communicate your results? 576 00:29:45,708 --> 00:29:48,538 You could be doing great work, but if you don't communicate your results 577 00:29:48,568 --> 00:29:52,613 or your process or what you're doing clearly, you're You know, you run 578 00:29:52,613 --> 00:29:56,163 the risk of getting fired, even though you've done a tremendous job. 579 00:29:56,613 --> 00:30:00,893 So obviously, I think a big part of the last decade has been figuring out what's 580 00:30:00,893 --> 00:30:05,723 the cadence and how do we communicate in a way that, we don't lose the client because 581 00:30:05,723 --> 00:30:11,143 if we get too technical and too into stats and numbers, then clients get confused. 582 00:30:11,143 --> 00:30:12,163 And some people want that. 583 00:30:12,163 --> 00:30:12,713 And that's great. 584 00:30:12,713 --> 00:30:14,083 And in that case, we're going to provide that. 585 00:30:14,103 --> 00:30:17,243 But you know, there's a lot of people that just want to know the basics. 586 00:30:17,743 --> 00:30:22,353 so Understanding how to communicate on a client per client basis, is 587 00:30:23,273 --> 00:30:26,343 super important and probably one of the number one things that we 588 00:30:26,343 --> 00:30:28,523 try to improve on all the time. 589 00:30:29,013 --> 00:30:32,293 the second thing is I'm actually pretty upfront with them on onboarding and in 590 00:30:32,303 --> 00:30:36,123 the sales calls where I say, Hey, I know you care about your conversion rate, 591 00:30:36,123 --> 00:30:37,943 but we're there to make you more money. 592 00:30:38,478 --> 00:30:44,778 And what that means is maybe we need to optimize another metric, or maybe, 593 00:30:44,778 --> 00:30:48,618 when we optimize your conversion rate, we can't look at your site 594 00:30:48,628 --> 00:30:52,548 wide, conversion rate, we have to look at it from a channel basis. 595 00:30:53,258 --> 00:30:55,628 There are so many different situations that could happen, right? 596 00:30:55,628 --> 00:30:57,768 But what we've really tried to do is how do we. 597 00:30:58,208 --> 00:31:03,528 educate the client so they know how we think around optimization. 598 00:31:03,698 --> 00:31:06,328 And I think that's something that by the way, that's one of the reasons 599 00:31:06,328 --> 00:31:08,558 why a lot of people work with us. 600 00:31:08,828 --> 00:31:12,518 It's because of how we think of conversion optimization, right? 601 00:31:12,528 --> 00:31:16,458 They, they hear me talk about it on social media, on YouTube, on my 602 00:31:16,458 --> 00:31:20,588 podcast, and, and they're attracted to the way we think around that. 603 00:31:20,648 --> 00:31:24,278 So they work with us and they understand that it's not a quick win. 604 00:31:24,558 --> 00:31:29,548 Like I don't really share here's 50 AB test ideas you can do tomorrow. 605 00:31:29,798 --> 00:31:32,958 That's not the type of audience I attract and that's not the 606 00:31:32,958 --> 00:31:34,508 audience I want to attract either. 607 00:31:34,898 --> 00:31:35,278 Right? 608 00:31:35,448 --> 00:31:37,068 I talk about methodologies. 609 00:31:37,108 --> 00:31:38,148 I talk about process. 610 00:31:38,148 --> 00:31:41,738 I talk about those things and maybe it's less sexy. 611 00:31:42,148 --> 00:31:47,518 Industry wise, but often the brands that come our way already 612 00:31:47,518 --> 00:31:49,678 have an understanding of CRO. 613 00:31:50,258 --> 00:31:52,018 They're in it for the long run. 614 00:31:52,028 --> 00:31:55,078 It's not something they expect to do only just for a couple months 615 00:31:55,418 --> 00:32:00,923 and they understand that site wide conversion rates can be You know, 616 00:32:01,353 --> 00:32:04,863 not a lie, but it just can hide a lot of truth and a lot of things. 617 00:32:04,968 --> 00:32:05,838 me a bit misleading. 618 00:32:06,653 --> 00:32:10,693 I, I think it just comes up at the end of the day, it's all about expectations. 619 00:32:10,753 --> 00:32:14,043 And we've really tried and it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. 620 00:32:14,043 --> 00:32:17,723 look, like no matter the experience of the client in this space and so 621 00:32:17,723 --> 00:32:21,358 on, it still happens that all of a sudden, their site wide conversion 622 00:32:21,418 --> 00:32:25,878 has decreased by a couple percentage points, and they're super stressed out, 623 00:32:25,878 --> 00:32:26,938 they're wondering what's happening. 624 00:32:26,948 --> 00:32:30,998 Well, we're there to, reassure them and help understand what happened, Very often, 625 00:32:30,998 --> 00:32:33,108 then we do a channel and device breakdown. 626 00:32:33,108 --> 00:32:34,593 We just realize, hey, well, you've seen it. 627 00:32:34,833 --> 00:32:38,083 I've spent a lot less money on Facebook in the past couple days, 628 00:32:38,383 --> 00:32:40,653 and that's caused a drop, right? 629 00:32:40,723 --> 00:32:45,233 99 percent of the time, that's what happens, but, but, yeah, 630 00:32:45,408 --> 00:32:45,938 get blamed. 631 00:32:46,893 --> 00:32:51,893 oh, yeah, we get, we get blamed for everything, everything, all the time. 632 00:32:51,993 --> 00:32:52,733 and then you get blamed 633 00:32:53,153 --> 00:32:53,793 and you 634 00:32:53,968 --> 00:32:54,238 Did we 635 00:32:54,238 --> 00:32:54,628 happen to 636 00:32:54,733 --> 00:32:55,943 said, we noticed. 637 00:32:56,033 --> 00:32:59,523 yeah, a client makes a change on the website and then it breaks an AP 638 00:32:59,523 --> 00:33:03,073 test and then they're like, Hey, you guys did not QA to test properly. 639 00:33:03,083 --> 00:33:05,503 Well, then we'll get blamed for that. 640 00:33:05,613 --> 00:33:08,813 and I think it's just part of the job, but it's also part of 641 00:33:08,813 --> 00:33:10,343 the job for us to be able to. 642 00:33:10,653 --> 00:33:13,213 Not to just accept the blame, but to investigate, right? 643 00:33:13,283 --> 00:33:17,293 obviously, look, if it's our fault, I want to understand how to make 644 00:33:17,293 --> 00:33:18,363 sure it doesn't happen again. 645 00:33:18,703 --> 00:33:23,793 so I will investigate, but if it's not our fault, I think we still also, for, 646 00:33:23,803 --> 00:33:28,973 for, for the clients trust in us, but also in just optimization longterm. 647 00:33:29,243 --> 00:33:32,163 And for that to work out, well, we have to tell them, Hey, Mr. 648 00:33:32,163 --> 00:33:34,393 Client, like totally understand. 649 00:33:34,393 --> 00:33:35,493 You thought we didn't do this, right? 650 00:33:35,493 --> 00:33:35,933 But look. 651 00:33:36,533 --> 00:33:39,913 Ultimately, if you make a change to this product page template, it will 652 00:33:39,913 --> 00:33:43,793 affect the class that's being used in that test, and it will break the test. 653 00:33:43,793 --> 00:33:47,663 And based on, when that happens, we may or may not see it. 654 00:33:47,663 --> 00:33:50,693 All of us, they're so, your websites are technology, it's 655 00:33:50,693 --> 00:33:51,903 code, anything can happen. 656 00:33:52,503 --> 00:33:56,373 So, I think it's just the way I look about optimization. 657 00:33:56,373 --> 00:33:57,513 This is what I tell clients. 658 00:33:57,553 --> 00:34:00,263 I say, we work with brands for a very long time. 659 00:34:00,533 --> 00:34:03,563 I bank on relationships and I've always banked on relationships 660 00:34:03,563 --> 00:34:04,443 to grow this business. 661 00:34:04,713 --> 00:34:07,973 I don't want to be this transactional agency that operates in the 662 00:34:07,973 --> 00:34:11,573 sidelines because I don't think optimization can work that way. 663 00:34:11,643 --> 00:34:12,833 It's so complex. 664 00:34:13,033 --> 00:34:15,203 Even if your goal is to do it internally. 665 00:34:16,178 --> 00:34:20,498 Eventually, and not work with an agency, which is great, like you need, you're 666 00:34:20,498 --> 00:34:21,988 going to have the same conversations. 667 00:34:21,988 --> 00:34:25,138 You're going to blame that team for something that happens, or there's 668 00:34:25,148 --> 00:34:26,768 always going to be that friction point. 669 00:34:26,768 --> 00:34:29,758 So unless the brand really learns how to do it properly. 670 00:34:29,758 --> 00:34:30,758 And that's why we're there. 671 00:34:30,788 --> 00:34:31,658 That's why we exist. 672 00:34:31,688 --> 00:34:35,348 My mission is not just increase their numbers, but it's hopefully to get 673 00:34:35,348 --> 00:34:38,218 them to think websites the right way. 674 00:34:38,518 --> 00:34:41,388 So they can one day be fly on their own. 675 00:34:41,388 --> 00:34:41,628 Yeah. 676 00:34:41,678 --> 00:34:45,718 or at least, integrate a bit more of just the optimization or CRO way 677 00:34:45,718 --> 00:34:47,938 of thinking, in their day to day. 678 00:34:47,948 --> 00:34:51,578 I mean, I think it's a big, I'm saying that it just sounds like a big mission, 679 00:34:51,578 --> 00:34:57,448 but, when you, when you're, when you collaborate closely for a client, Over 680 00:34:57,448 --> 00:35:02,688 many years, and you're not afraid to share kind of the mistakes, the learnings 681 00:35:02,688 --> 00:35:09,258 and so on that, I guess that learning develops itself, that process develops 682 00:35:09,268 --> 00:35:15,948 itself inside of many companies and, and, It makes for, a better relationship, but 683 00:35:15,948 --> 00:35:19,358 also those are usually the brands that are most successful at growing as well. 684 00:35:19,478 --> 00:35:23,518 I look at those brands where it's happening and, and they are some of 685 00:35:23,518 --> 00:35:25,898 the most DTC brands I've seen to date. 686 00:35:26,138 --> 00:35:27,258 They're taking the longer term view. 687 00:35:27,258 --> 00:35:28,928 They realize this isn't an overnight thing. 688 00:35:28,928 --> 00:35:32,178 It's, double my conversion rate, double my business kind of thing. 689 00:35:32,478 --> 00:35:34,888 Let me ask you this and closing here. 690 00:35:35,878 --> 00:35:37,848 When did CRO become so like. 691 00:35:38,008 --> 00:35:44,738 SEO ified, especially on, on LinkedIn, and you've got some strong opinions on this. 692 00:35:46,158 --> 00:35:49,408 shares, likes, comments don't necessarily equate to what's 693 00:35:49,418 --> 00:35:50,738 in line with your mission. 694 00:35:51,198 --> 00:35:52,948 we just see this all the time. 695 00:35:53,628 --> 00:35:54,018 So what? 696 00:35:54,018 --> 00:35:54,388 What? 697 00:35:54,618 --> 00:35:55,558 Like, when did it happen? 698 00:35:55,898 --> 00:35:56,928 what's your take on it? 699 00:35:56,928 --> 00:36:00,348 Like, why does somebody CRO agencies, like, feel like they need to do this? 700 00:36:00,348 --> 00:36:03,388 Because, it's just vanity metrics that they're at after 701 00:36:03,398 --> 00:36:05,088 after when all of a sudden done 702 00:36:05,678 --> 00:36:08,298 I mean, I think it's just a reflection of society in general. 703 00:36:08,808 --> 00:36:12,498 tick tock, taking over, making everybody impatient. 704 00:36:12,758 --> 00:36:16,588 People can't watch, can't stand to watch long videos anymore. 705 00:36:16,828 --> 00:36:19,118 People don't want to read long blog posts anymore. 706 00:36:19,408 --> 00:36:22,868 And I think what happened is we had this e commerce boom, right? 707 00:36:22,868 --> 00:36:28,928 Like around the time of COVID or like a little bit after, I think 2021, if I'm not 708 00:36:28,928 --> 00:36:33,208 mistaken, we're probably some of the peak e commerce years and everything boomed and 709 00:36:33,208 --> 00:36:38,578 so many brands that probably never would have worked in a normal economy or also 710 00:36:38,628 --> 00:36:41,358 working and booming and it made no sense. 711 00:36:43,778 --> 00:36:49,038 That also led to this Shopify boom and so many people just starting, Shopify 712 00:36:49,048 --> 00:36:54,268 stores, and then everybody's just jumping on the opportunity to like, Hey, how do I 713 00:36:54,318 --> 00:36:56,508 consult or do marketing for those stores? 714 00:36:56,788 --> 00:37:00,638 And then there's also been, and you probably remember the year better 715 00:37:00,648 --> 00:37:04,268 than I do, but you know, like the iOS changes that happened, I think 716 00:37:04,268 --> 00:37:07,578 it was around the same period or towards the end of those years, 717 00:37:07,733 --> 00:37:08,263 21. 718 00:37:08,403 --> 00:37:08,723 Yeah. 719 00:37:09,428 --> 00:37:09,768 21, right? 720 00:37:09,788 --> 00:37:12,258 So it was, Perfectly aligned. 721 00:37:12,288 --> 00:37:16,078 And that was kind of the beginning of the end of that boom, because all of a 722 00:37:16,078 --> 00:37:22,178 sudden brands restarted to realize I can't just spend my time optimizing my Facebook 723 00:37:22,238 --> 00:37:25,128 ads only do that and be successful. 724 00:37:25,388 --> 00:37:30,578 Brands started to realize I can only control Facebook or the other ad platforms 725 00:37:30,628 --> 00:37:33,368 to up to a certain extent, but my website. 726 00:37:33,578 --> 00:37:36,298 I can, and I can do a lot there. 727 00:37:36,468 --> 00:37:38,578 And that's the second half of the equation. 728 00:37:38,998 --> 00:37:43,948 So I think really starting at that point in time, we really started 729 00:37:43,948 --> 00:37:47,748 seeing more brands care about conversion optimization, wanting 730 00:37:47,748 --> 00:37:52,048 to take more control on, increasing their conversions and their website. 731 00:37:52,048 --> 00:37:54,858 And, and all of a sudden that became more important than ever. 732 00:37:55,218 --> 00:37:59,728 And gradually, well, then just Five years earlier, conversion optimization 733 00:37:59,728 --> 00:38:04,388 was mostly a thing that was taught through like super long skyscraper style 734 00:38:04,398 --> 00:38:06,398 blog posts that we called at the time. 735 00:38:06,758 --> 00:38:07,168 Right. 736 00:38:07,428 --> 00:38:11,488 now it was like, okay, well, what's the method of consuming information? 737 00:38:11,638 --> 00:38:15,768 Well, it's usually short videos, short posts, quick things. 738 00:38:15,988 --> 00:38:17,548 And people just want the. 739 00:38:17,958 --> 00:38:20,008 Quick, the quick wins. 740 00:38:20,248 --> 00:38:24,168 And before that, there were fewer people doing CRO and it was more like 741 00:38:24,178 --> 00:38:27,268 enterprise people and people that had, that were very deep into it. 742 00:38:27,568 --> 00:38:32,328 So the knowledge was maybe a bit more sparse, but it was maybe a little. 743 00:38:32,563 --> 00:38:33,063 Deeper. 744 00:38:33,263 --> 00:38:39,193 Now that same level of knowledge exists, but it, but it often gets lost within the 745 00:38:39,193 --> 00:38:43,493 sea of engagement, which is now so many people has got businesses where they want 746 00:38:43,493 --> 00:38:48,313 to profit from CRO people, consultants, every single agency from dev agencies 747 00:38:48,313 --> 00:38:52,153 to add agencies, to new CRO agencies, to, kids coming out of high school. 748 00:38:52,153 --> 00:38:54,463 I mean, I was one, I was that guy once, right? 749 00:38:54,463 --> 00:38:55,883 So I can't, I can't, I'm not complaining, 750 00:38:56,268 --> 00:38:58,388 case, junior high school, but that's all right. 751 00:38:59,333 --> 00:38:59,833 So. 752 00:39:00,208 --> 00:39:04,438 I can't complain about that, but it just, what it means is all of a sudden, so 753 00:39:04,438 --> 00:39:09,338 many people are trying to profit off CRO and what's going to happen is, well, how 754 00:39:09,338 --> 00:39:10,878 do you do that in today's day and age? 755 00:39:10,878 --> 00:39:13,708 Well, it's all about engagement and there's going to be 756 00:39:13,708 --> 00:39:14,728 a lot of things shared. 757 00:39:16,268 --> 00:39:21,118 What I guess I'm seeing though, is obviously when you have a lot of 758 00:39:21,118 --> 00:39:24,468 people that's been in CRO, maybe for a couple months or a year, only two 759 00:39:24,468 --> 00:39:29,683 years is, well, Generally, you can be very loud, but it doesn't mean 760 00:39:29,703 --> 00:39:33,553 that, that content is necessarily valuable or it's going to help, right? 761 00:39:33,603 --> 00:39:39,683 it doesn't take any level of expertise in CRO to build a massive swipe file 762 00:39:39,943 --> 00:39:45,543 with 100 test ideas that, you could apply to your e commerce store tomorrow, 763 00:39:45,683 --> 00:39:47,633 which won't do anything, by the way. 764 00:39:48,743 --> 00:39:52,743 back then it was, I don't want to mention Neil Patel again, but it was like, Neil 765 00:39:52,743 --> 00:39:54,493 Patel had those lists on blog posts. 766 00:39:55,268 --> 00:39:55,418 We 767 00:39:55,418 --> 00:39:55,968 insult them. 768 00:39:55,998 --> 00:39:58,198 We insult them all the time on this podcast, by the way. 769 00:39:58,308 --> 00:39:59,368 And he's been on this podcast. 770 00:39:59,368 --> 00:40:00,278 So there you go. 771 00:40:01,218 --> 00:40:03,758 and, and look like I know him and I really respect what he's built, 772 00:40:03,758 --> 00:40:05,088 but it's just it's a first example. 773 00:40:05,088 --> 00:40:08,548 Like he's been really, really good back in the days that like building 774 00:40:08,558 --> 00:40:13,068 those ridiculously long blog posts and, 775 00:40:13,358 --> 00:40:15,408 He didn't write any of them, but that's okay. 776 00:40:16,048 --> 00:40:16,778 Exactly. 777 00:40:16,898 --> 00:40:19,078 But you know, That's what we had back then. 778 00:40:19,218 --> 00:40:21,318 That's 779 00:40:21,598 --> 00:40:22,468 swipe files. 780 00:40:22,498 --> 00:40:25,088 It's the same content, just repurposed. 781 00:40:25,338 --> 00:40:31,128 And it doesn't take any CRO expertise to build a swipe file of, I just broke 782 00:40:31,128 --> 00:40:33,298 down, this, athletic greens funnel. 783 00:40:33,298 --> 00:40:34,518 I just, Broke down Dr. 784 00:40:34,518 --> 00:40:35,348 Squatch's funnel. 785 00:40:35,448 --> 00:40:38,778 You don't need to be a CRO expert to take a screenshot of every step of a funnel. 786 00:40:39,008 --> 00:40:41,348 You don't need to be a CRO expert just to come up with a 787 00:40:41,348 --> 00:40:43,378 bunch of random test ideas that, 788 00:40:43,893 --> 00:40:46,473 CRO, standing for Conversion Rate Opinion. 789 00:40:47,338 --> 00:40:49,138 Oh, I love that. 790 00:40:49,138 --> 00:40:52,308 Touche. 791 00:40:52,388 --> 00:40:53,298 I might steal that. 792 00:40:54,308 --> 00:40:56,308 And how about all those guys breaking down the Dr. 793 00:40:56,308 --> 00:40:57,008 Squatch funnel? 794 00:40:57,058 --> 00:40:59,148 Like you actually worked on the Dr. 795 00:40:59,148 --> 00:41:00,038 Squatch funnel. 796 00:41:00,973 --> 00:41:01,363 Yeah. 797 00:41:01,363 --> 00:41:01,983 Well, we were 798 00:41:02,053 --> 00:41:02,483 Dr. 799 00:41:02,823 --> 00:41:04,043 let's get some bashing. 800 00:41:04,213 --> 00:41:04,463 Let's get 801 00:41:04,563 --> 00:41:06,043 for five years. 802 00:41:06,103 --> 00:41:06,553 Right. 803 00:41:06,593 --> 00:41:09,823 And when we started working with them, they were a small 10 million 804 00:41:10,103 --> 00:41:13,293 brand and, now they're advertising the super bowl and everything. 805 00:41:13,673 --> 00:41:15,973 and, And it's interesting because when you see that, and Dr. 806 00:41:15,973 --> 00:41:19,243 Squatch is not the only example, we work with a lot of big brands where like you 807 00:41:19,243 --> 00:41:22,653 see those people in LinkedIn breaking down their funnel or telling everything 808 00:41:22,653 --> 00:41:24,033 that they should do differently. 809 00:41:24,323 --> 00:41:27,783 And well, the reality is sometimes those ideas were in the pipeline 810 00:41:27,863 --> 00:41:32,113 and they failed, or sometimes they totally didn't, those recommendations 811 00:41:32,113 --> 00:41:34,463 made no sense for X and Y reason. 812 00:41:34,813 --> 00:41:36,453 so that's the thing, right? 813 00:41:36,453 --> 00:41:39,853 If you just look at a website and you try to say they should do this and you try to 814 00:41:39,853 --> 00:41:44,533 prescribe without actually having access to the analytics, to the qualitative data, 815 00:41:44,553 --> 00:41:48,493 to the customer databases, to the segments and everything, like it just becomes I 816 00:41:48,503 --> 00:41:52,323 guess of who's more creative with coming up with random ideas and applying them on 817 00:41:52,323 --> 00:41:58,573 any website and it gets views and there is some value in heuristics when there's 818 00:41:58,573 --> 00:42:03,743 an actual process and methodology for it, but yeah, I think it's just a proof 819 00:42:03,743 --> 00:42:10,083 that like I I saw those funnel breakdowns and very often like The recommendations 820 00:42:10,083 --> 00:42:13,583 did not make sense or didn't apply for x and y reason i'm not allowed to say 821 00:42:13,583 --> 00:42:18,263 anything or say the y You And I never even comment on those posts, but I just 822 00:42:18,263 --> 00:42:23,153 know that having seen the back end, I know they would totally flop sometimes. 823 00:42:23,303 --> 00:42:25,173 And that happens with a lot of clients. 824 00:42:25,293 --> 00:42:28,183 Please don't tell me they said, make the buy button orange 825 00:42:29,763 --> 00:42:30,523 It's possible. 826 00:42:30,773 --> 00:42:34,193 But, and the reason I'm saying this is at the end of the day, this is 827 00:42:34,193 --> 00:42:37,703 just a proof that You can have a lot of what seems like a great idea. 828 00:42:37,723 --> 00:42:40,093 You have a lot of content that's being shared that looks like a 829 00:42:40,093 --> 00:42:42,343 very well thought expert's opinion. 830 00:42:42,513 --> 00:42:45,233 But in the world of CRO, no one's got a crystal ball. 831 00:42:45,253 --> 00:42:47,963 And unless you test it, unless there's actual data backing things 832 00:42:47,963 --> 00:42:53,103 up, it's really, really hard to, know or to predict that a recommendation 833 00:42:53,103 --> 00:42:54,143 is going to make an impact. 834 00:42:54,363 --> 00:42:57,303 We run hundreds, if not thousands of A B tests a year. 835 00:42:57,623 --> 00:43:01,794 And, I, every day I'm proven wrong, like something I think is going to make 836 00:43:01,794 --> 00:43:05,664 a huge difference ends up making no difference or ends up losing, right? 837 00:43:05,684 --> 00:43:09,924 And I've been in this for over a decade and yet, right? 838 00:43:09,964 --> 00:43:12,034 And I think that's, that's the thing. 839 00:43:12,064 --> 00:43:16,304 It's, there's a lot of things we can share on social for engagement. 840 00:43:16,604 --> 00:43:20,844 But is it truly going to help those brands or are we just doing it for engagement? 841 00:43:21,054 --> 00:43:24,754 And it's something that I'm always torn because yeah, I also want more engagement. 842 00:43:24,774 --> 00:43:26,384 I want to grow my own agency. 843 00:43:26,384 --> 00:43:28,284 I'm not hiding that. 844 00:43:28,304 --> 00:43:31,194 And I'm not trying to be such a purist that I'm above all 845 00:43:31,194 --> 00:43:32,344 these people and everything. 846 00:43:32,344 --> 00:43:32,434 Like. 847 00:43:33,404 --> 00:43:36,854 I'm often thinking okay, how do I create content that yes, creates 848 00:43:36,854 --> 00:43:39,924 engagement, but that's also not here's a swap file of a hundred 849 00:43:39,934 --> 00:43:43,554 different things that I know people shouldn't copy for in the first place. 850 00:43:44,269 --> 00:43:44,589 Right. 851 00:43:44,729 --> 00:43:46,009 Cause it's all individualistic. 852 00:43:46,269 --> 00:43:49,849 And also it, one thing affects the next thing, which affects the 853 00:43:49,849 --> 00:43:52,629 next thing, which affects the next thing, which is, your landing page 854 00:43:52,629 --> 00:43:54,219 optimization, your conversion rate. 855 00:43:54,994 --> 00:44:00,454 Your bundle size, your choices, your AOV, your LTV, your profit 856 00:44:00,464 --> 00:44:02,014 margin on individual products. 857 00:44:02,064 --> 00:44:03,454 there's so many factors. 858 00:44:03,454 --> 00:44:04,884 It's not just one thing. 859 00:44:04,894 --> 00:44:05,994 It's not like, Hey, do this. 860 00:44:05,994 --> 00:44:07,854 And all of a sudden double your business. 861 00:44:08,764 --> 00:44:11,744 But we see all those posts and those are the ones that get a lot of engagement. 862 00:44:11,744 --> 00:44:16,824 So question, I think everything that you see, because sometimes it's taken. 863 00:44:17,209 --> 00:44:21,039 In theory and out of context without really understanding, which I think 864 00:44:21,099 --> 00:44:25,379 has been, great here because you've certainly seen a lot and you're 865 00:44:25,869 --> 00:44:29,089 you've been in this business a long time and you're not an old guy. 866 00:44:29,449 --> 00:44:32,299 So, I mean, that's impressive unto itself. 867 00:44:32,304 --> 00:44:38,510 just imagine, Lauren, , you like breaking down websites in your room at age 11. 868 00:44:38,540 --> 00:44:41,860 I can't see that you, you're, you were like out the dance floor, 869 00:44:41,910 --> 00:44:43,330 going to parties and doing all that. 870 00:44:43,330 --> 00:44:45,700 And Raphael still had a full life. 871 00:44:46,025 --> 00:44:49,375 I said that I still did all of that, but yes. 872 00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:54,630 For me, I was like up in my room, like playing guitar and I wasn't very popular. 873 00:44:54,630 --> 00:44:59,000 So anyway, I was that guy, but anyway, where can people get in touch with you? 874 00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:01,720 Where's the best place for people to connect with you, Raphael? 875 00:45:02,575 --> 00:45:03,045 Yeah. 876 00:45:03,095 --> 00:45:05,285 So you can go to splitbase. 877 00:45:05,325 --> 00:45:10,375 com slash PT and you can get a free proposal there if you need help with 878 00:45:10,595 --> 00:45:14,975 conversion optimization or landing pages, or conversion optimized site 879 00:45:15,005 --> 00:45:17,225 redesigns for larger e commerce brands. 880 00:45:17,465 --> 00:45:18,345 so splitbase. 881 00:45:18,345 --> 00:45:20,365 com and yeah, slash PT. 882 00:45:20,545 --> 00:45:22,125 Best place to just learn about everything. 883 00:45:22,355 --> 00:45:25,515 But if you want to connect with me personally, I mean, Hey, LinkedIn 884 00:45:25,525 --> 00:45:27,605 is probably where I post the most. 885 00:45:27,855 --> 00:45:33,565 and I try to record videos pretty often sharing and not test to 886 00:45:33,565 --> 00:45:38,185 implement tomorrow or right away, but, methodologies and strategies rather. 887 00:45:38,425 --> 00:45:39,625 so you can learn there. 888 00:45:39,715 --> 00:45:40,475 Yeah. 889 00:45:40,720 --> 00:45:42,460 and I'm always trying to get better as well. 890 00:45:42,460 --> 00:45:45,430 So, I'd love for people to watch the content and let me know what 891 00:45:45,430 --> 00:45:48,700 they want more of, or what, they've learned through it and same on 892 00:45:48,700 --> 00:45:50,440 Twitter, are Paul and Daigle. 893 00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:54,370 It's a little harder to find as my last name is very French and, well, French 894 00:45:54,370 --> 00:45:57,600 Canadian and complicated, but, I'm sure it's all going to be in the show notes, 895 00:45:57,610 --> 00:45:59,820 so I won't bother spelling it out. 896 00:46:00,010 --> 00:46:04,240 Well, we'll leave all those links in the show notes and, yes, for those non French 897 00:46:04,240 --> 00:46:08,100 speakers, we'll make sure that we do have that proper, spelling pronunciation. 898 00:46:08,140 --> 00:46:10,000 It's been great having you on the show. 899 00:46:10,070 --> 00:46:16,230 So much for coming on, been a big fan of you , for, I wouldn't say years, 900 00:46:16,230 --> 00:46:20,480 but I would say about a year and, really tremendous what you've been able 901 00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:24,330 to do and building up the business and making a real positive impact. 902 00:46:24,330 --> 00:46:25,470 So super appreciate that. 903 00:46:25,730 --> 00:46:27,340 Make sure that you do go over to split pace. 904 00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:29,010 com forward slash PT. 905 00:46:29,010 --> 00:46:33,240 Get that special offer just for PT listeners like you. 906 00:46:33,985 --> 00:46:37,935 And, yeah, all the links and all the resources and everything that we mentioned 907 00:46:37,935 --> 00:46:43,675 on today's show, including the proper spelling of Raphael's first and last 908 00:46:43,675 --> 00:46:46,605 name, is over at perpetual traffic. 909 00:46:47,035 --> 00:46:47,465 com. 910 00:46:47,485 --> 00:46:51,505 So make sure that you do leave a rating and subscribe wherever you 911 00:46:51,505 --> 00:46:57,515 listen to podcasts and on behalf of my awesome cohost, Lauren E Petrulo, 912 00:46:59,985 --> 00:47:00,865 until next show. 913 00:47:01,265 --> 00:47:01,875 See ya.