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Your worth as a human is based on what
you do and how much you help others.

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if you heard a friend describe
themselves like that, you'd be quick

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to tell them that that's nonsense.

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But we seem to find it very
easy to believe it of ourselves.

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As healthcare professionals or people
in high stress, high stakes jobs.

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Our roles and even our identities are
wrapped up in this idea of being helpful.

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And when we are in a team, sometimes
that can look like taking on too

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much responsibility or rescuing
other people for fear of what

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other people might think of us.

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This week Dr. Sarah Coope, former GP,
team coach and specialist in conflict

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and mediation joins us again to
look at ways we can use our natural

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curiosity about our own responses.

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She's got a great tool to help you
identify your default programming and

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work through how you automatically react
when people make unfair demands of you,

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so that you can identify and then start
to change this deeply inbuilt programming

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and deliver a no that's compassionate
and ultimately protects your boundaries.

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If you're in a high stress, high stakes,
still blank medicine, and you're feeling

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stressed or overwhelmed, burning out or
getting out are not your only options.

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I'm Dr. Rachel Morris, and
welcome to You Are Not a Frog.

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Hello, so I'm Dr. Sarah Coope.

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I'm a former GP, I'm a conflict
coach and also a trained mediator.

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And I'm working alongside you, Rachel, as
the CEO of Shapes Toolkit, which is really

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exciting and really love helping people,
beat burnout and also resolve conflict

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so that they can, yeah, work happier.

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It's wonderful to have you, Sarah.

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I wanted to get you on the podcast in an
official interview, uh, context because

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I wanna pick your brains about our
hardwired programming, this unconscious

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programming that we have, which means
that we find it very, very difficult

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to either shed responsibility to say no
or not just default to doing everything

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for everybody all, all the time.

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Because I've noticed that doctors,
senior healthcare professionals, people

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in these high stress, high stakes
jobs, we often see delegating or not

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paying perfect or not finishing stuff
off, or not being able to help people.

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We often just cannot say no to that,
and we see, um, being asked to do

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something as an impossible choice.

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So it's either I do it or
I let other people down.

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Either I protect myself
or I protect my team.

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We see things in a very binary way, which
means that, of course, we default to

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protecting our team and not letting people
down just because of the way I think we've

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been groomed and programmed and hardwired.

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And, and quite a lot of the time anyway,
these choices that we think are very

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binary, they aren't anyway, there's,
there's many different options, but

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I thought it would be really good
to explore some of this programming.

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In the background that doctors and other
people in these high stakes jobs have.

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Now, I'm gonna start by
getting a bit personal.

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What, what, what programming have you
noticed that, that you've had that's

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made it hard for you to sort of lose
some of this default responsibility?

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So I think for me, myself, I certainly
can recognize, and I think this

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is a contributing factor, ending
up in Burner was a sense of, I

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think a lot of it's around shame.

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A lot of it's around the fear of
failure, the fear of what people think

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if I don't do that or if I say no.

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There's a sense of I should
be able to do it all.

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So there's this sort of
unrealistic expectation, um,

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that I really can identify with.

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I think there's often a
lot of assumptions made.

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Both, both ways.

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So I think for me, I had a lot of
assumptions that people, what people

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would think, but also perhaps, um, you
know, maybe because if, if, if I appear

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to be capable, other people will think
that I'm able to do all of that and more.

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I think that those sort of
programming can be really.

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What's the word, sort of
formative in many ways.

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And it's often unconscious.

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It's, it is often underneath the surface.

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It's not something that we're, we're
sort of telling ourselves consciously,

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but those sorts of patterns, and they
go quite deep as I know from doing

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a lot of exploratory work, but also
through coaching and, and other, and

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therapy and other, other modalities.

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It takes a lot of unpicking to
find those things at the bottom.

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Yeah, that definitely rings
true for me and it rings true

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for lots of people I work with.

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Would you say that that's a universal
thing, though, wanting to appear

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competent, or do you think it's
particularly for people that are

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working in professions and sort
of knowledge based industries?

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Or is it just a human nature?

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I think that's a, it's a
really big question, isn't it?

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Because I think it depends.

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I think it's very prevalent in doctors.

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I think it's very prevalent
in female doctors as as well.

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I think there's a lot of
conditioning that goes on that

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that sort of drives for many of us.

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And maybe it's the generation, this
generation, I dunno, but I think that

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drives the, the self expectation, perhaps
the other expectation as well, um, and

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needing to prove, you know, sometimes
it's that if there's any elements of

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like low self-esteem, for example.

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Or just a sense of measuring
one's self-worth about what

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we do and what we achieve.

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So I'm not sure if it's universal.

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I think there's various,
probably some personality traits.

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I think there's gonna be various,
obviously a lot of historical factors.

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I think it depends on the environment
around oneself, you know, what the kind

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of messages are in the culture, what the
messages are, um, perhaps in one-to-one

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relationships within the team as well.

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I think it also probably depends
on what kind of support one has

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and what messages receiving there.

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But a lot of it does come from
that deeper programming that sort

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of sticks within probably from
childhood patterning or you know, from

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medical school as well, the sorts of
messages we received, received then.

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I mean, you can look at other
tools around the Enneagram.

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So I'm an Enneagram three, which
is the achiever, achiever type.

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And I think, you know, that
obviously, obviously plays a part.

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And I think also, you know, for
medics, I think, you know, we often

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have been those people who have
achieved and have succeeded in so

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many ways that that becomes the norm.

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And there's almost, um, it's
hard to imagine failing.

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It was hard to imagine not, not
actually doing so well in something

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and what would that look like?

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So I think there's, there's those,
the fear of the unknown sometimes.

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But also perhaps there can be a sense of
overvaluing achievement, and therefore

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an undervaluing, not lack of achievement,
but undervaluing just kind of good

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enough at times and what that feels like.

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I remember I was coaching someone
once, um, um, a very senior consultant.

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And I was just practicing
coaching at the time.

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I just, I was, I was training, and I had
this model, which was the performance

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di diamond where you rated yourself
on, um, how much you were achieving

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on your achievement in your job, your
enjoyment of your job, your purpose

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in your job, and your recognition.

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So those four dimensions,
and he was putting, you know,

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rating himself out of 10.

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And, um, he was achieving,
did like 8, 9, 10 out of 10.

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Um, his enjoyment.

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It was about three or four, um,
I can't remember what the others

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were, but then we sort of did an
exercise, well, okay, you're at 10.

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What would you like to be at?

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And he put his achievement.

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He said, I only want to be achieving five.

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I was like, why is that?

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He said, well, because that will
put my enjoyment up so much more.

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'Cause that, that when we joined
up the two points on the diagram,

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it was like they were linked.

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The higher his achievement, he said
it just pulled the enjoyment down

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and the higher the enjoyment, maybe
the slightly less on the achievement.

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Now, all the theory about working
happier seems to say the opposite.

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Actually.

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If you are enjoying yourself, you probably
will be achieving more, but I guess it

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depends what we mean by achievements.

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And I think for him it was, you know,
all these very important roles, you

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know, producing lots of reports and
articles and journals, plus doing

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a really busy shift work pattern
and all, all those sorts of things.

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So I, I think we've mainly
been conditioned to achieve

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in, in certain ways.

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So the achievement being never failing,
like you said, but also rising to the

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top of the Royal Colleges or, or, or, or
joining committees or being, you know, a

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big name, a big cheese as we, as we get
more important in our jobs, potentially.

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Which, at the end of the day,
often I see people aren't enjoying

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themselves that, that much when
they're, they're doing all that.

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It's just another, the walls, the
ladders against another wall to climb

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once you sort of get to the top there.

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But that is just sort of hard wired
into us, that, that your, your

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position and status, I think a bit.

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Yeah, I agree.

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And I, we sometimes talk about the
equation or the, the pathway, hard work

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leads to success, leads to happiness.

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And then we ask the question, does it?

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And I think we've often been
conditioned to believe that that's true.

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So we work hard, we'll then be
successful, then we'll be happy.

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And that's, we know that's not always
true as the example you've just given.

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But also I think, and I dunno if it
is just me that I thought I didn't

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deserve to enjoy my job almost.

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There was a sense of, you know, I had
to work hard and I almost couldn't

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expect to enjoy it because hard
work was kind of meant to be hard.

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And I, and I think that it was a real
revelation when I started my portfolio

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career actually doing bits of other pieces
of work that I found I was really enjoying

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and it almost didn't feel like work.

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And I think that's quite a, a fixed,
or quite a common pattern as well from

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other people I've spoken with, that they
almost didn't realize they could enjoy

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hard work, and therefore that type of
hard work is very different, isn't it?

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That's probably less focused
on achievement, more focused

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on on purpose, I think.

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Yeah, I think that is a hardwiring we
have that, yeah, work has to be difficult.

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Work has to be hard, and work
has to feel like a chore.

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And I know where that came from for me.

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I mean, I was doing all these A levels.

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I didn't wanna do chemistry A
level, inorganic chemistry A level.

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Oh my goodness.

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I remember just sitting there and it
was like kryptonite for someone with

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ADHD I tell you, just list in a very
cold room listening to the headmaster

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droning on about inorganic chemistry.

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No interest whatsoever.

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It, it was absolutely painful,
but that's where I internalized if

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you want to achieve, you have to
actually suffer along along the way.

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Otherwise, it's not really
properly achievement

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And suffering through the, you
know, the junior doctor years where

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you've got absolutely no sleep or
suffering through the, I just work

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really hard through all these exams.

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You know, I've got 20 exams in one
week, but then we can party really

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hard until we have to suffer again.

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Not very healthy is it?

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it's not, but I think, again, repeated
exposure to those kind of patterns and

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internalization of that as a belief
which then can be like, this is what,

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yeah, almost like what I deserve or
this is what I have to tolerate at the

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cost of, or in order to, in order to
gonna get where I think I want to get

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or other people are saying I should get.

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I think that's what probably
stops us saying no, because we

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think that's, well, that's just,
that's just what we have to do.

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So it's those kind of words, isn't it?

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Like I just have to do this.

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And so we almost have to suffer a bit
to be a good doctor, to be paid a good

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salary and all that sort of thing.

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But I've got a bit of a theory
that that medics, because you know,

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everybody wants status in society.

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They do.

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And there's this brilliant book by
Will Storr called The Status Game.

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I'd recommend it to anybody.

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He's a journalist that looks at
these different types of status and

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how it's changed through the ages.

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But you can get status in different ways.

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You can get status by being utterly
beautiful, utterly gorgeous, you

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know, but physi, you know, the Greek,
the Greek Godlike status, you know,

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the, the, the sports stars that we
just think are amazing or whatever.

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Now, there are some medics like that,
but not many of us medics are the sort

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of Greek Gods, Greek God physique.

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So if we haven't got that available to
us, then the next type of status you

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can have in society, money, finances,
being really, really rich, right?

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So that just, I mean, a lot
of us, I think would go, oh,

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that's a bit crass, isn't it?

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You know who, who cares about?

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But you know, you can see that, can't you?

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All the, the tech bros and the,
you know, loving the millionaires

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and all this sort of stuff.

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00:12:05,461 --> 00:12:08,611
So you can, you can see it all
around you, but often medics,

222
00:12:08,611 --> 00:12:09,491
you know, these day and age.

223
00:12:10,021 --> 00:12:11,401
We're not the most rich people, are we?

224
00:12:11,401 --> 00:12:15,361
Because, you know, salaries aren't,
haven't kept up with et cetera, et cetera.

225
00:12:15,361 --> 00:12:21,031
So then you've got another type of
status, which has been altruistic, you

226
00:12:21,031 --> 00:12:24,901
know, and we saw that with, with Mr.
Tom, you know, the, the walking, you

227
00:12:24,901 --> 00:12:29,191
know, in his garden in COVID, and people
that do really good things for people.

228
00:12:29,191 --> 00:12:32,941
Yeah, and Mother Theresa, you know, people
that have done lots of things for charity.

229
00:12:32,941 --> 00:12:35,521
We, we think these people are absolutely
wonderful and, and that's good.

230
00:12:35,521 --> 00:12:36,671
And you can see why.

231
00:12:37,101 --> 00:12:43,041
It's beneficial to a society to elevate
people who are very altruistic and stuff.

232
00:12:43,041 --> 00:12:48,681
But I think that doctors have then started
to look on their status as being the good

233
00:12:48,681 --> 00:12:50,451
ones, being the people that always help.

234
00:12:50,811 --> 00:12:53,721
And then, you know, it doesn't matter
about how much money you've got or

235
00:12:53,721 --> 00:12:56,751
how good looking you are, 'cause
actually you are the professional, the

236
00:12:56,751 --> 00:12:58,251
one who's always there and helping.

237
00:12:58,251 --> 00:13:01,201
So what does that mean for
your status when you say no?

238
00:13:02,041 --> 00:13:05,041
Or you say I'm not doing that anymore,
you give the responsibility back.

239
00:13:05,041 --> 00:13:08,881
So it's not just that, that threat
of rejection 'cause you might

240
00:13:08,881 --> 00:13:12,691
upset someone by saying, no, you
are actually giving away some of

241
00:13:12,691 --> 00:13:14,221
your power and some of your status.

242
00:13:14,253 --> 00:13:15,783
as you were saying,
that I was thinking yes.

243
00:13:15,783 --> 00:13:20,450
So therefore, the achievement for, for
people who, maybe it's not about achieving

244
00:13:20,450 --> 00:13:24,500
a status which is relating to looks or
finance, but more around altruism or

245
00:13:24,500 --> 00:13:27,325
doing good, if that's the driving force.

246
00:13:28,025 --> 00:13:30,935
Then actually, it's really
hard to not do that, isn't it?

247
00:13:30,935 --> 00:13:34,805
Because that's where one gets
one's worth or even identity.

248
00:13:34,835 --> 00:13:37,985
And I think another thing
that that's important to

249
00:13:37,985 --> 00:13:39,095
think about is, you know what?

250
00:13:39,125 --> 00:13:40,235
What makes up your identity?

251
00:13:40,235 --> 00:13:41,345
Who, who are you?

252
00:13:41,765 --> 00:13:44,015
And sometimes when I'm doing a workshop,
I'll go around the room and just say

253
00:13:44,015 --> 00:13:46,295
to people, just introduce yourself
and then we'll get halfway around the

254
00:13:46,295 --> 00:13:49,475
room and I'll just say, just stop and
just think, what has everybody said at

255
00:13:49,475 --> 00:13:51,005
the beginning of their introduction?

256
00:13:51,005 --> 00:13:52,355
And they've all said, I am.

257
00:13:52,790 --> 00:13:56,590
I am a GP, I am a emergency
medicine consultant.

258
00:13:56,650 --> 00:13:57,760
It's the I am.

259
00:13:57,760 --> 00:13:59,230
And I'm not saying that that's wrong.

260
00:13:59,530 --> 00:14:03,460
I guess I just highlight that to
people because is your job and which

261
00:14:03,460 --> 00:14:06,250
is what you're talking about, the
status, which has a lot of implications

262
00:14:06,250 --> 00:14:07,520
to it, is that really who you are?

263
00:14:08,170 --> 00:14:09,640
Who are, you know, who else are you?

264
00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:15,910
And as some of this, some of this can be
really helpful to recognize that actually

265
00:14:15,970 --> 00:14:20,470
it's, our status doesn't come, I say all
from one part of our lives or all from

266
00:14:20,470 --> 00:14:25,539
one role, which I think helps to make
it maybe a little more comfortable when

267
00:14:25,539 --> 00:14:28,125
we do need to set limits, around that.

268
00:14:28,762 --> 00:14:30,742
it's an interesting one,
this, you know, I, yeah.

269
00:14:30,742 --> 00:14:31,552
I am a doctor.

270
00:14:31,552 --> 00:14:35,002
'cause when people ask me
what do you do these days?

271
00:14:35,602 --> 00:14:36,322
Often?

272
00:14:36,562 --> 00:14:38,602
My first response is, well,
I used to be a doctor.

273
00:14:39,262 --> 00:14:39,982
Bizarrely.

274
00:14:40,177 --> 00:14:42,772
I mean, but I would still, you
know, I'm still, I'm still a doctor.

275
00:14:42,772 --> 00:14:45,772
I'm working in a different field,
but I feel the need to say, well, I

276
00:14:45,772 --> 00:14:48,322
used to be a GP, partly 'cause people
don't really understand what I do.

277
00:14:48,322 --> 00:14:52,432
If I say, well, I do a podcast and we
do training, people like, oh really?

278
00:14:52,432 --> 00:14:55,252
What on earth that, you know,
what that does that entail?

279
00:14:55,762 --> 00:14:59,467
But yeah, there is something about, I just
sort of want to put a bit of credibility

280
00:14:59,467 --> 00:15:04,777
in there, perhaps, you know, I am worth
something in society, sort of, you know.

281
00:15:04,777 --> 00:15:07,417
And this thing about having to
be worth it, having to contribute

282
00:15:07,417 --> 00:15:12,457
and contribution is a, a very
noble thing and it's very worthy.

283
00:15:12,457 --> 00:15:16,507
And I've just read a, a book about
Adlerian psychology that talks about

284
00:15:16,507 --> 00:15:20,197
actually that the, the highest thing
that somebody can do is contribute

285
00:15:20,497 --> 00:15:22,117
just by sort of being who they are.

286
00:15:22,758 --> 00:15:24,438
But we really feel it.

287
00:15:24,708 --> 00:15:29,388
I think as, as doctors and medics, this
thing about having to contribute so

288
00:15:29,388 --> 00:15:34,398
much so that we contribute when it's not
even necessary, we over contribute, and

289
00:15:34,398 --> 00:15:36,828
we will always just take on the task.

290
00:15:36,828 --> 00:15:39,648
I, I don't know whether it's a
particularly doctory thing that.

291
00:15:40,413 --> 00:15:45,393
When someone asks you to do a task in
a surgery, for example, I had plenty of

292
00:15:45,933 --> 00:15:49,623
of other healthcare professionals saying
to me, no, I can't, I can't do that.

293
00:15:49,623 --> 00:15:50,403
No, it's not my role.

294
00:15:50,403 --> 00:15:51,153
No, I won't do that.

295
00:15:51,153 --> 00:15:51,953
I'm not comfortable.

296
00:15:51,953 --> 00:15:56,297
But I never had a doctor saying, no,
I can't do that, or I won't do that.

297
00:15:56,737 --> 00:15:57,907
And why do you think that was?

298
00:15:58,273 --> 00:15:58,973
Well, I think there is.

299
00:15:59,458 --> 00:16:05,008
This training that we have, that if no one
else can do that task, then we can do it.

300
00:16:05,548 --> 00:16:10,918
And partly it's the different
role roles in that doctors

301
00:16:11,338 --> 00:16:13,408
by and large are prescribers.

302
00:16:13,408 --> 00:16:15,508
They can do lots of
different, different things.

303
00:16:15,508 --> 00:16:18,238
They can do procedures as long been
taught properly and stuff, whereas

304
00:16:18,238 --> 00:16:22,588
in, in other, in other roles, you
have to get certified to do things.

305
00:16:23,188 --> 00:16:24,718
I remember when I was
a junior doctor, the.

306
00:16:25,363 --> 00:16:29,833
The nurses on CCU just decided that
their phlebotomy certificates had run

307
00:16:29,833 --> 00:16:32,923
out, so they just bleeped me and I
had to come do the whole blood round.

308
00:16:32,923 --> 00:16:35,943
'Cause it, it was literally
anything in the hospital defaulted

309
00:16:36,343 --> 00:16:37,993
to the, the lowest junior doctor.

310
00:16:37,993 --> 00:16:42,343
And that conditioning runs really
deep and it just became your

311
00:16:42,343 --> 00:16:46,123
responsibility and anyone could
bleep you at any time to do anything.

312
00:16:46,123 --> 00:16:50,131
And there was, I didn't ever feel
like I could say no or it wasn't

313
00:16:50,131 --> 00:16:52,021
my job or my responsibility.

314
00:16:52,441 --> 00:16:55,411
I would just have to say, even if I didn't
have time, I'd say, well, I'll, I'll put

315
00:16:55,411 --> 00:16:58,891
it on my list and then I'll come round
and do it, and I'd get an awful lot of

316
00:16:58,891 --> 00:17:03,211
criticism for not doing it, you know,
if you were agency that you were busy

317
00:17:03,211 --> 00:17:04,861
somewhere else with another patient.

318
00:17:04,861 --> 00:17:09,451
And so there's a lot sort of shame,
internalized that I couldn't get round

319
00:17:09,451 --> 00:17:13,466
to do anything that I'd been asked to do,
even though I, it wasn't really my job

320
00:17:13,466 --> 00:17:17,851
and I couldn't possibly have the time to
do it, but I took that on as my fault.

321
00:17:18,571 --> 00:17:19,531
And that fits, doesn't it?

322
00:17:19,531 --> 00:17:23,461
With what I said earlier around,
often it's other people's expectations

323
00:17:23,461 --> 00:17:24,991
that you should do it all.

324
00:17:24,991 --> 00:17:26,641
It's all your job to do.

325
00:17:26,641 --> 00:17:32,338
And so that example of being a junior
doctor and both the expectation but

326
00:17:32,338 --> 00:17:35,818
also the internal and the conditioning
was, I, well, I just have to do

327
00:17:35,818 --> 00:17:39,778
it, I think that's what then makes
it much harder further on down the

328
00:17:39,778 --> 00:17:41,368
line, because it's always been that.

329
00:17:41,878 --> 00:17:44,008
Our job to do everything.

330
00:17:44,458 --> 00:17:45,448
The book stops with us.

331
00:17:45,448 --> 00:17:51,208
And in some ways, yes, it, it does,
but I think what we, we see a lot of,

332
00:17:51,208 --> 00:17:54,478
and we've experienced ourselves as
well, but what, you know, that's not

333
00:17:54,478 --> 00:17:57,028
sustainable and, and the cost of that.

334
00:17:57,448 --> 00:17:59,788
And we, I suppose the question we,
we are really looking at is what

335
00:17:59,788 --> 00:18:04,937
makes it so, so difficult to say
no in those, you know, in at work.

336
00:18:05,308 --> 00:18:09,238
And I think it's often because of all,
of, all of the experience, whether

337
00:18:09,238 --> 00:18:11,908
it's in childhood and the attachment
style, whether it is, like I said,

338
00:18:11,908 --> 00:18:15,388
GCSEs and A levels you particularly
want to do, but you know, you, you,

339
00:18:15,388 --> 00:18:19,768
you are on that, that conveyor belt as
I've often felt, of this is the path

340
00:18:19,798 --> 00:18:24,688
you should take or you've chosen, but
you should take it and just keep going.

341
00:18:24,688 --> 00:18:29,788
And then it does become like, this is who
I am and that belief of I need to, this

342
00:18:29,788 --> 00:18:33,208
is what I need to do in order to have.

343
00:18:33,613 --> 00:18:36,733
You know that that's whatever it
is, I, and then I'll be happy.

344
00:18:36,943 --> 00:18:38,053
And I've talked a bit about that.

345
00:18:38,053 --> 00:18:41,503
Like what is it we have, we think we
have to, we have to do in order to,

346
00:18:41,563 --> 00:18:43,603
in order to have, and then we'll be.

347
00:18:43,603 --> 00:18:49,063
Whereas I really think focus on,
you know, who do I need to be first?

348
00:18:49,063 --> 00:18:53,923
And when I focus on that, which is
a lot, bit of it is around internal

349
00:18:53,983 --> 00:18:58,873
state, who do I need to be in order
to then do out of that sense of

350
00:18:58,873 --> 00:19:01,694
being, then I'll probably have.

351
00:19:02,234 --> 00:19:03,884
What it is I, I really want.

352
00:19:03,884 --> 00:19:06,374
But that's a huge upside
down shift, isn't it?

353
00:19:06,854 --> 00:19:10,334
Um, but I think that makes, that
example you've just given there

354
00:19:11,084 --> 00:19:13,934
really brings home those expectations.

355
00:19:13,934 --> 00:19:17,042
And then what, what choice
did you have in that moment?

356
00:19:17,411 --> 00:19:18,341
Well, I mean, it's interesting.

357
00:19:18,341 --> 00:19:20,801
I had the choice that I could
have just said, no, don't do it.

358
00:19:20,801 --> 00:19:25,061
But then my brain was telling me, if
you don't do it, those patients are

359
00:19:25,061 --> 00:19:28,226
all at risk, because they wouldn't
have had their blood test taken.

360
00:19:28,226 --> 00:19:31,237
You know, nowadays I would've
said, well no, I'm not doing it.

361
00:19:31,237 --> 00:19:33,877
You need to find something else, you
need to find somebody else to do that.

362
00:19:33,877 --> 00:19:36,007
Let's report it to the phlebotomy
service, blah, blah, blah.

363
00:19:36,337 --> 00:19:36,907
But I think,

364
00:19:36,952 --> 00:19:37,522
but back then.

365
00:19:37,948 --> 00:19:40,738
Back then, yeah, however many years ago.

366
00:19:41,278 --> 00:19:43,843
Because we're constantly asking, and
I heard someone talk about these three

367
00:19:44,083 --> 00:19:45,043
questions we're asking ourselves.

368
00:19:45,043 --> 00:19:46,323
Number one is, am I safe?

369
00:19:46,805 --> 00:19:48,509
So my amygdala's saying am I safe?

370
00:19:48,989 --> 00:19:50,159
Are people accepting me?

371
00:19:50,159 --> 00:19:52,589
Are, are people thinking well of me?

372
00:19:52,822 --> 00:19:54,742
Is there gonna be any bad consequences?

373
00:19:54,742 --> 00:19:57,022
And we always extrapolate
the bad consequences.

374
00:19:57,022 --> 00:20:01,343
So, you know, if I don't do that
blood rind on CCU, then they might

375
00:20:01,343 --> 00:20:05,243
die of hyperkalemia essentially,
and then I won't be safe 'cause

376
00:20:05,243 --> 00:20:07,403
I'll be reported and et cetera.

377
00:20:07,883 --> 00:20:11,453
Um, the next question people wanna
ask is though, am I accepted?

378
00:20:12,743 --> 00:20:14,423
Do people around here accept me?

379
00:20:14,423 --> 00:20:20,453
And saying no to someone, or, you know,
not taking on that default responsibility

380
00:20:20,453 --> 00:20:22,133
might mean that they don't accept me.

381
00:20:22,133 --> 00:20:24,863
And I would love to be able to say to
all our listeners, oh, don't worry,

382
00:20:24,863 --> 00:20:26,423
people will accept you if you say no.

383
00:20:26,915 --> 00:20:28,055
But I, I can't.

384
00:20:28,085 --> 00:20:31,895
'cause there are some really
real consequences of, of saying

385
00:20:31,895 --> 00:20:33,485
no, people might not accept you.

386
00:20:33,485 --> 00:20:35,195
They might criticize you.

387
00:20:35,945 --> 00:20:37,775
They might not as well, but they might.

388
00:20:37,865 --> 00:20:38,435
They might do.

389
00:20:38,435 --> 00:20:41,435
But it's like you said, and we can
say as much as we want oh, it doesn't

390
00:20:41,435 --> 00:20:44,075
matter what other people think about
you, it's what you think about yourself.

391
00:20:44,075 --> 00:20:47,015
But in, in reality that
that is really, really hard.

392
00:20:47,675 --> 00:20:50,352
And the other thing we want
to answer is, am I okay?

393
00:20:50,749 --> 00:20:51,919
And I think that's a big one.

394
00:20:51,919 --> 00:20:52,999
And by, okay.

395
00:20:52,999 --> 00:20:55,294
I think we mean am I good?

396
00:20:55,984 --> 00:20:57,124
Well, I mean, am I good?

397
00:20:57,124 --> 00:20:58,176
Am I a good person?

398
00:20:58,427 --> 00:20:59,777
Do I have integrity?

399
00:21:00,120 --> 00:21:01,500
Am I helping other people?

400
00:21:01,500 --> 00:21:05,790
Because when I was brought up, it
was all about am I good or not?

401
00:21:05,970 --> 00:21:08,970
There was a lot of talk about
sin and all that sort of stuff.

402
00:21:08,970 --> 00:21:10,140
So have I been sinful?

403
00:21:10,140 --> 00:21:11,160
Have I been bad?

404
00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:13,020
And you know, I'm absolutely
terrified of that.

405
00:21:13,020 --> 00:21:16,050
It's hardwired into me, you
know, have I been good or not?

406
00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:20,940
And obviously that is such a subjective
interpretation, but I think a lot

407
00:21:20,940 --> 00:21:22,710
of doctors, we want to be good.

408
00:21:23,338 --> 00:21:28,408
and I think the way I've shifted that
a bit has been do I respect myself?

409
00:21:28,888 --> 00:21:29,695
And I suppose.

410
00:21:29,894 --> 00:21:30,794
It's similar, isn't it?

411
00:21:30,794 --> 00:21:32,444
But the, have I been good?

412
00:21:32,474 --> 00:21:34,724
It's almost where's the judgment measure?

413
00:21:34,724 --> 00:21:38,534
Like who's, who sort of yardstick
are we comparing that to?

414
00:21:38,564 --> 00:21:42,053
Whereas the question, and I was talking
about this when I was, um, doing a

415
00:21:42,053 --> 00:21:45,593
talk on difficult, having boundaries
of difficult people, was actually

416
00:21:45,593 --> 00:21:49,643
we have to hold the, our own sort of
yardstick against it for ourselves.

417
00:21:49,823 --> 00:21:51,923
Do I respect myself in this moment?

418
00:21:51,923 --> 00:21:53,843
So, and this is the hard thing, isn't it?

419
00:21:53,843 --> 00:21:57,166
Even if other people is a sense
of rejection from them because

420
00:21:57,166 --> 00:22:02,956
of, of your decision or your no or
whatever it is at the end of the day.

421
00:22:03,646 --> 00:22:06,316
So like, can I live, can I live
with that decision that I've made?

422
00:22:06,826 --> 00:22:08,926
And that's gonna be different
for different people.

423
00:22:08,926 --> 00:22:12,046
And of course, you could spend a long time
in picking like, what makes you say yes?

424
00:22:12,046 --> 00:22:13,039
What makes you say no?

425
00:22:13,343 --> 00:22:13,913
I like that.

426
00:22:13,913 --> 00:22:15,413
Can I, can I live with that decision?

427
00:22:15,413 --> 00:22:18,803
Actually, someone else also
recently said to me, actually,

428
00:22:18,803 --> 00:22:20,753
let's ditch the good and bad.

429
00:22:21,203 --> 00:22:22,643
I said, okay, well what about helpful?

430
00:22:22,643 --> 00:22:24,353
She said, no, let's ditch
helpful and unhelpful.

431
00:22:24,353 --> 00:22:27,428
Let's just do does that behavior
work or doesn't it work?

432
00:22:28,298 --> 00:22:29,138
The behavior that works?

433
00:22:29,138 --> 00:22:30,188
The behavior that doesn't work.

434
00:22:30,188 --> 00:22:33,278
So saying, no, well actually that
does, that behavior does work for me.

435
00:22:33,578 --> 00:22:35,378
It might not work for you,
but it, it works for me and

436
00:22:35,378 --> 00:22:36,938
it's really, really important.

437
00:22:37,688 --> 00:22:41,708
So there are things that you said we need
to identify and understand ourselves.

438
00:22:41,708 --> 00:22:44,138
You've got the self-awareness, but
then you have to unlearn the pattern.

439
00:22:44,138 --> 00:22:48,384
So how do you go about starting to unlearn
these patterns, and this programming?

440
00:22:48,621 --> 00:22:50,546
I mean, it does all start with
that awareness, doesn't it?

441
00:22:50,551 --> 00:22:52,491
It all starts with recognizing them.

442
00:22:52,491 --> 00:22:56,481
So I think for me, it was through having
some coaching about 20 years ago before

443
00:22:56,481 --> 00:23:00,441
I did the coaching training myself
and, and just, I spent a lot of time

444
00:23:00,441 --> 00:23:02,181
journaling and, and writing things.

445
00:23:02,181 --> 00:23:04,551
I had to bring some of these
patterns into the light.

446
00:23:04,551 --> 00:23:07,868
So I would, I would do a lot
of reflection, which is there's

447
00:23:07,868 --> 00:23:11,168
medics and I'm sure the other
professionals, that's what we, we do.

448
00:23:11,228 --> 00:23:15,284
I would think about things that had
happened and just try and reflect on it

449
00:23:15,284 --> 00:23:18,839
and think, okay, what was I. You know,
what was I thinking at that moment?

450
00:23:18,839 --> 00:23:20,579
What was the underlying thought process?

451
00:23:20,579 --> 00:23:23,249
What was the, when you think of
it almost like a, a software kind

452
00:23:23,249 --> 00:23:25,709
of program, it was really helpful
for me to, to break it down.

453
00:23:25,709 --> 00:23:27,119
What wrong was the steps in that?

454
00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:30,329
And it's not, people say, oh,
that's so much naval gazing.

455
00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:30,539
It.

456
00:23:30,539 --> 00:23:30,929
It's not.

457
00:23:30,929 --> 00:23:34,199
It's, it's about understanding oneself and
this is all part of, say, compassionate

458
00:23:34,199 --> 00:23:38,759
leadership and other things that if we
raise our awareness and can recognize

459
00:23:38,759 --> 00:23:40,829
these patterns, then we have a choice.

460
00:23:41,244 --> 00:23:43,644
And when we have that
choice, it's so, so freeing.

461
00:23:43,644 --> 00:23:45,834
It's the Viktor Frankl
kind of quote, isn't it?

462
00:23:45,864 --> 00:23:49,074
The, the between stimulus
and, and response.

463
00:23:49,074 --> 00:23:50,124
There's a space.

464
00:23:50,408 --> 00:23:52,328
Uh, and in that space
is our power to choose.

465
00:23:52,328 --> 00:23:53,558
And I, that's what I wanted.

466
00:23:53,708 --> 00:23:57,158
And I think this is what a lot of
coaching and probably a lot of CBT

467
00:23:57,158 --> 00:24:01,268
and other therapies like that will
do is let's, let's expand that space.

468
00:24:01,268 --> 00:24:03,128
And it might be that we
need support to do that.

469
00:24:03,414 --> 00:24:06,294
But expand that space and really
look okay, what's actually going on?

470
00:24:06,294 --> 00:24:08,364
And then the unlearning for me.

471
00:24:08,806 --> 00:24:11,146
Because a lot of those are
unconscious, automatic.

472
00:24:11,146 --> 00:24:14,146
You've done it so often over time
that you don't even realize you, it is

473
00:24:14,146 --> 00:24:17,266
happening and it takes, it does take
some unpicking and go through the layers.

474
00:24:17,836 --> 00:24:20,596
I think a tool that I found really
helpful for some of the unlearning was

475
00:24:20,596 --> 00:24:22,426
a tool called Ladder of Consequence.

476
00:24:22,456 --> 00:24:25,696
And I didn't invent this, but I
cannot remember where I read it.

477
00:24:25,696 --> 00:24:28,756
So, um, I can't give credit
apart from saying it's not mine.

478
00:24:29,139 --> 00:24:31,839
But a lot of consequence, and I've
used this a lot in coaching, so

479
00:24:31,839 --> 00:24:35,259
I'll draw a horizontal line and
just put a letter X next to it.

480
00:24:35,259 --> 00:24:38,799
Now, X isn't about treasure,
X is for situation X. It is

481
00:24:38,829 --> 00:24:40,929
the triggering kind of moment.

482
00:24:40,929 --> 00:24:44,859
And I try and reflect and go, okay,
what was, what was the trigger?

483
00:24:45,323 --> 00:24:49,433
I know I reacted in a way that
I don't, I want to change.

484
00:24:49,493 --> 00:24:52,013
You know, maybe, maybe it was with
my kids, you know, or maybe it

485
00:24:52,013 --> 00:24:53,693
was with a patient or a colleague.

486
00:24:54,293 --> 00:24:56,603
So I'd write down what was the
situation X, and just write a

487
00:24:56,603 --> 00:24:58,343
headline on that horizontal line.

488
00:24:58,903 --> 00:25:01,993
And then I'd go and write a line
underneath this these, so another

489
00:25:01,993 --> 00:25:02,923
horizontal line underneath.

490
00:25:02,983 --> 00:25:05,053
And I'd ask myself,
and then what happened?

491
00:25:05,463 --> 00:25:08,253
And so I'd think, okay, so when
situation hap, X happened, you know,

492
00:25:08,253 --> 00:25:11,043
the very beginning, the very first
step of that might have been, you

493
00:25:11,043 --> 00:25:14,343
know, a child, you know, one of my
children refusing to do something.

494
00:25:14,343 --> 00:25:15,663
But I'd ask them, that might be it.

495
00:25:15,963 --> 00:25:16,923
Then what happened?

496
00:25:16,923 --> 00:25:20,073
And it might have been that in
my head I had a thought, oh, you

497
00:25:20,073 --> 00:25:21,303
know, I haven't got time for this.

498
00:25:21,994 --> 00:25:24,394
And then I'd ask for another
horizontal line underneath.

499
00:25:24,394 --> 00:25:25,744
And then what happened?

500
00:25:26,104 --> 00:25:29,434
So it might have been, I had a, you
know, a bit of an irritable, um,

501
00:25:29,584 --> 00:25:31,504
I, I spoke irritably to my child.

502
00:25:31,984 --> 00:25:32,944
And then what happened?

503
00:25:32,944 --> 00:25:35,254
The child got upset,
and then what happened?

504
00:25:35,254 --> 00:25:39,634
And I just kind of take it down to
really pull out the pattern of what,

505
00:25:39,844 --> 00:25:41,494
you know, the consequences were of that.

506
00:25:41,494 --> 00:25:45,324
And again, it was really, it's hard
sometimes to do that, but it de,

507
00:25:45,324 --> 00:25:46,919
it definitely, it's very factual.

508
00:25:47,514 --> 00:25:50,214
And sometimes we don't clearly
know what our thought was.

509
00:25:50,214 --> 00:25:53,604
So it's either a thought or a
action that you had in that moment.

510
00:25:53,604 --> 00:25:56,004
It could be speech, you could have done
something, you could have said something.

511
00:25:56,184 --> 00:25:59,454
So it's very clear that anyone observing
it would see some of those on the outside.

512
00:25:59,454 --> 00:26:01,224
Some of it's internal only, you know.

513
00:26:01,734 --> 00:26:04,314
So taking it right down, lots
of horizontal lines until you

514
00:26:04,314 --> 00:26:05,754
get to kind of the output.

515
00:26:06,157 --> 00:26:09,307
And the output would usually be
ending up, you know, I might have

516
00:26:09,307 --> 00:26:13,567
felt, I might have got angry and then
probably after I got angry I'd feel

517
00:26:13,567 --> 00:26:15,637
really guilty and then I'd be upset.

518
00:26:15,637 --> 00:26:17,527
And there's a bit of a
downward spiral, isn't there?

519
00:26:17,527 --> 00:26:18,427
A downward ladder.

520
00:26:19,357 --> 00:26:23,287
And so what then I would do, and I'd
do this in coaching with people when

521
00:26:23,287 --> 00:26:26,137
sometimes in the conflict coaching or
I've coached a lot of people in sort

522
00:26:26,137 --> 00:26:29,197
of, who've been sent to coaching for
anger management or other things, it's,

523
00:26:29,707 --> 00:26:31,897
which is a whole nother story about,
you know, whether we could do that.

524
00:26:31,897 --> 00:26:34,465
But okay, let's take the same situation X.

525
00:26:34,772 --> 00:26:37,022
Draw a horizontal line above that.

526
00:26:37,022 --> 00:26:38,402
So now we're going the other direction.

527
00:26:38,402 --> 00:26:41,991
What would be the first
new sort of pattern step?

528
00:26:41,991 --> 00:26:44,661
If you're thinking about writing a new
software program, what would be the

529
00:26:44,661 --> 00:26:47,061
first kind of command in that program?

530
00:26:47,111 --> 00:26:51,731
And it's just often asking oneself
what would the very first thought be?

531
00:26:52,094 --> 00:26:53,264
And often we don't know.

532
00:26:53,324 --> 00:26:57,164
So we'd have to say for someone
else who responds differently in

533
00:26:57,164 --> 00:27:00,048
that very same moment, what do
you think they tell themselves?

534
00:27:00,294 --> 00:27:01,914
And usually you can think of something.

535
00:27:02,334 --> 00:27:05,964
So say you're faced with a child who's
refusing to do what you've asked someone

536
00:27:05,964 --> 00:27:10,464
who's able to respond calmly in that
might think to themselves, okay, I wonder

537
00:27:10,464 --> 00:27:11,814
what's going on for them right now.

538
00:27:12,278 --> 00:27:15,812
And so you'd write down what you wanted
to try as your new pattern and keep going.

539
00:27:15,812 --> 00:27:18,632
So if I told, if I thought to myself,
I wonder what's going on for for them

540
00:27:18,632 --> 00:27:22,652
right now, then the next horizontal
line might be a curious question.

541
00:27:23,142 --> 00:27:25,542
Or it might be an empathic
statement like, oh, you seem

542
00:27:25,542 --> 00:27:27,522
hungry right now, or, you know.

543
00:27:27,672 --> 00:27:32,011
So, and then what happens is you kind
of go to the next level until, you

544
00:27:32,011 --> 00:27:34,831
know, you cly, you can't predict what
the other person's, um, reactions,

545
00:27:34,831 --> 00:27:38,731
but you are sort of just going through
what your pattern would look like in

546
00:27:38,731 --> 00:27:40,981
that and where that then takes you.

547
00:27:41,041 --> 00:27:46,411
And so all of that sort of, that's the
lower ladder bit is the unlearning and

548
00:27:46,411 --> 00:27:48,481
then the top ladder is the relearning.

549
00:27:49,156 --> 00:27:52,426
And I think, I think our lives
are just constant unlearning

550
00:27:52,426 --> 00:27:54,106
and relearning from patterns.

551
00:27:54,406 --> 00:27:57,286
And what then I would encourage people
to do, and I certainly did myself,

552
00:27:57,286 --> 00:28:01,816
was keep relearning that, that top
pattern until that became the automatic.

553
00:28:02,206 --> 00:28:03,526
So it's like the override.

554
00:28:04,036 --> 00:28:08,236
And I really like the computer sort of
for the software analogy, because we

555
00:28:08,236 --> 00:28:09,856
don't see that behind the scenes do we?

556
00:28:10,336 --> 00:28:11,716
We're so reliant on technology.

557
00:28:11,716 --> 00:28:12,196
We don't see that.

558
00:28:12,196 --> 00:28:13,126
We just see the output.

559
00:28:13,531 --> 00:28:15,721
And yet there's all of this going on.

560
00:28:15,721 --> 00:28:20,251
And the more aware we can be of, and
the more choiceful we are about our,

561
00:28:20,612 --> 00:28:24,842
both our internal dialogue and then
our behaviors, we've got so many

562
00:28:24,842 --> 00:28:26,672
options, there's so much we can do.

563
00:28:27,392 --> 00:28:30,302
And there'd be moments when I just
realized, oh, I just did that without

564
00:28:30,302 --> 00:28:34,172
even thinking, you know, lots of
moments where I didn't, but I still

565
00:28:34,172 --> 00:28:36,482
could learn and go, oh, where did
I, where did I, where did that just

566
00:28:36,482 --> 00:28:41,162
not sort of go the way that I want,
that I, I wished it had, and I don't.

567
00:28:41,327 --> 00:28:43,712
I, I found that such a powerful tool.

568
00:28:44,042 --> 00:28:47,492
And visually really, really helpful
for me to sort of see it set out.

569
00:28:47,552 --> 00:28:52,142
And also I think it's something
that anybody can do initially.

570
00:28:52,712 --> 00:28:56,372
There's deeper work to be done, so
behind that pattern, I often say

571
00:28:56,372 --> 00:29:01,061
these patterns that we see, the, the
below the line kind of patterns Are

572
00:29:01,061 --> 00:29:03,101
a bit like a tire on a bicycle wheel.

573
00:29:03,281 --> 00:29:05,921
They're sort of the bit that touches
the surface or the bit that, you

574
00:29:05,921 --> 00:29:07,901
know, that other people experience.

575
00:29:07,901 --> 00:29:10,721
But beneath the tire and the bike
wheel, you've got all the spokes

576
00:29:10,721 --> 00:29:11,831
that come down to the sensor.

577
00:29:11,831 --> 00:29:17,231
And all the spokes are a bit like, um,
beliefs that we have as we talked earlier.

578
00:29:17,231 --> 00:29:20,111
And often at the core of that I
think are some of the attachment

579
00:29:20,111 --> 00:29:22,271
kind of, um, experiences.

580
00:29:22,751 --> 00:29:26,338
So often what deeper coaching or
other work would do would be look

581
00:29:26,338 --> 00:29:30,538
at these kind of patterns because we
have lots of them, and identify, okay,

582
00:29:30,538 --> 00:29:32,158
where's the common denominator here?

583
00:29:32,381 --> 00:29:37,498
What's the underlying conclusion you
might have drawn when you were younger

584
00:29:38,098 --> 00:29:44,531
from your experience that meant you then
try to keep yourself safe by not doing

585
00:29:44,531 --> 00:29:45,791
certain things or doing certain things?

586
00:29:45,791 --> 00:29:50,218
And if you can identify that and then
ask, okay, as an adult now, what do what?

587
00:29:50,263 --> 00:29:51,283
What works better for me?

588
00:29:51,373 --> 00:29:52,183
I like that question.

589
00:29:52,243 --> 00:29:54,373
What would work better
for me instead of this?

590
00:29:54,981 --> 00:29:57,141
And again, that's some of the
unlearning and relearning.

591
00:29:57,261 --> 00:29:58,011
There's layers of it.

592
00:29:58,191 --> 00:29:58,881
I say like an onion.

593
00:29:59,570 --> 00:30:05,189
I also think we need to remember other
people's programming and I am guilty

594
00:30:05,189 --> 00:30:07,589
of making the assumptions that just
'cause I think one thing, I think

595
00:30:07,589 --> 00:30:09,869
everyone is gonna gonna think like that.

596
00:30:10,409 --> 00:30:13,810
And everything that obviously people
say to me goes through the filters

597
00:30:13,810 --> 00:30:17,260
of my background, from my past of
everything that's happened to me.

598
00:30:17,260 --> 00:30:19,184
It's funny, I was driving the other day.

599
00:30:19,184 --> 00:30:23,894
I saw a man walking along the road
with a dog with a high vis vest on.

600
00:30:23,984 --> 00:30:28,397
And on this luminous yellow
vest it said Reactive dog.

601
00:30:28,849 --> 00:30:30,919
I was like, wow, that is brilliant.

602
00:30:30,949 --> 00:30:37,177
Imagine if we walked along with like
our internal monologue or, or our like

603
00:30:37,357 --> 00:30:41,677
reactive personality or, um, things
that people have told us or the, the

604
00:30:41,677 --> 00:30:43,927
filter that we run everything past it.

605
00:30:43,927 --> 00:30:46,927
It made me laugh 'cause I think
I did a podcast on our amygdalas

606
00:30:46,927 --> 00:30:49,627
being a bit like a Rottweiler and
having to put your dog on a lead.

607
00:30:49,627 --> 00:30:52,957
You've got this reactive dog inside
you, but what will it react to?

608
00:30:52,957 --> 00:30:57,922
And I think, uh, we've talked about,
um, the fact that, you know, I have,

609
00:30:58,042 --> 00:31:02,362
I have a DHD and I always think I've
grown up with people thinking I'm

610
00:31:02,362 --> 00:31:05,782
tactless or too much or whatever, and
I have this sort of filter that I'm

611
00:31:05,782 --> 00:31:07,792
too much, or I, I've been tactless.

612
00:31:07,792 --> 00:31:11,862
So imagine if I had a high vis vest
that says, you know, reactive dog

613
00:31:12,312 --> 00:31:15,742
Tactless You know, and that's, so
everything that people ask me, I'm really

614
00:31:15,742 --> 00:31:19,342
worried that I'm gonna be tactless,
or that's the filter I run things

615
00:31:19,342 --> 00:31:21,352
through of other people's disapproval.

616
00:31:21,352 --> 00:31:22,042
It's, you know.

617
00:31:22,435 --> 00:31:24,175
I think someone's disapproving of me.

618
00:31:24,175 --> 00:31:28,405
Therefore, my first reaction is
probably defensiveness defensive dog.

619
00:31:29,785 --> 00:31:33,445
But what we're talking about is sort of
almost changing that hives vest that we

620
00:31:33,445 --> 00:31:37,225
are wearing to, to going, well, we, I
don't need to be a reactive dog right now.

621
00:31:37,225 --> 00:31:40,495
I could, I could change that
first thought and that then

622
00:31:40,495 --> 00:31:41,875
might change everything else.

623
00:31:41,875 --> 00:31:42,355
Does that make

624
00:31:42,610 --> 00:31:43,390
It makes sense.

625
00:31:43,390 --> 00:31:44,260
It's about labels.

626
00:31:44,260 --> 00:31:46,900
I mean, I, I have a reactive dog, so I'm
just thinking how great that would be.

627
00:31:46,930 --> 00:31:49,540
'Cause I end up saying to other people
that's, I'm fa as I'm coming towards

628
00:31:49,540 --> 00:31:52,150
them saying, oh, he's quite reactive
and I'll give you a wide birth.

629
00:31:52,990 --> 00:31:56,050
But I think, you know, I think
for ourselves, yeah, often we are

630
00:31:56,080 --> 00:32:00,130
literally going around with, you
know, with labels on our backs of

631
00:32:00,130 --> 00:32:03,760
what other people have spoken over us
or what we've told ourselves we are.

632
00:32:04,180 --> 00:32:07,360
And I think then, because again, this
is part of the focus on the wheel

633
00:32:07,660 --> 00:32:10,810
because we believe that to be true
'cause we've never really questioned

634
00:32:10,810 --> 00:32:14,530
it and unlearned it, we'd actually end
up doing though I'm not saying you're

635
00:32:14,530 --> 00:32:17,140
not ous, Rachel, 'cause you've done
a lot of work and you unlearned that.

636
00:32:17,140 --> 00:32:20,290
But I think, you know, I certainly
went around with labels that weren't

637
00:32:20,290 --> 00:32:23,140
really true for me, but I thought
that's what people thought, so

638
00:32:23,140 --> 00:32:24,610
actually then I behaved in that way.

639
00:32:24,610 --> 00:32:26,320
It's the self-fulfilling
prophecy, isn't it?

640
00:32:26,620 --> 00:32:29,500
And often we're so careful with our
children not to label them 'cause we

641
00:32:29,500 --> 00:32:33,410
don't want them to go around thinking
I'm lazy or I'm whatever, because we,

642
00:32:33,830 --> 00:32:36,020
I certainly thought that will just
make that, they'll live up to that.

643
00:32:36,410 --> 00:32:39,290
So, you know, there's something,
you know, so I've certainly saying

644
00:32:39,290 --> 00:32:41,900
to my teenagers, yeah, I, you
know, I really trust you on this.

645
00:32:41,900 --> 00:32:44,600
Whereas inside, sometimes
I'm not sure I really did.

646
00:32:45,290 --> 00:32:45,650
No.

647
00:32:45,710 --> 00:32:48,830
But I wanted to kind of convey
that to them so that they would go

648
00:32:48,830 --> 00:32:51,560
away thinking, okay, she trusts me,
therefore they're trying, my theory

649
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:53,210
was they would live up to that.

650
00:32:53,270 --> 00:32:59,715
And I think we have within our zone of
power, the ability to relabel ourselves.

651
00:32:59,745 --> 00:33:02,685
And this is about the self-respect,
bit about what works for us.

652
00:33:02,955 --> 00:33:05,145
You know, what is it we, and
this comes back to identity.

653
00:33:05,205 --> 00:33:06,255
Who are you, isn't it?

654
00:33:06,615 --> 00:33:07,515
Who are you really?

655
00:33:07,515 --> 00:33:09,515
Like what and who do you need to be?

656
00:33:09,515 --> 00:33:11,135
Who, who do you want to be?

657
00:33:11,585 --> 00:33:15,275
What almost is the jacket that you
kind of wear that in a way is very

658
00:33:15,275 --> 00:33:21,323
validating and it gives you freedom and
I think that's, there's so much in that.

659
00:33:21,562 --> 00:33:24,577
I was thinking wouldn't it be great if
we could see other people's as well?

660
00:33:25,359 --> 00:33:27,759
You know, I can think of colleagues
I've worked with, which who were

661
00:33:27,759 --> 00:33:32,799
absolutely lovely, but they were quite
blunt and they would bark at you if

662
00:33:32,799 --> 00:33:34,029
you sort of caught them off guard.

663
00:33:34,029 --> 00:33:36,639
But if you knew them well it would be
fine 'cause you, you knew they were

664
00:33:36,639 --> 00:33:38,559
like that and so you'd make allowances.

665
00:33:38,559 --> 00:33:40,479
But other people get
really offended and upset.

666
00:33:40,479 --> 00:33:45,439
But, you know, they sort of needed a,
a, caution, very blunt, but actually

667
00:33:45,439 --> 00:33:48,979
very lovely type thing so that other
people weren't gonna get offended.

668
00:33:48,979 --> 00:33:52,714
And I was just imagining a saw being
sat there with a high-vis jacket

669
00:33:52,714 --> 00:33:55,384
saying over responsible doctor on it.

670
00:33:55,504 --> 00:33:59,372
You know, so that when people ask you
stuff that's not your role that you

671
00:33:59,432 --> 00:34:04,135
shouldn't have to take on, you can
just look at that and go, okay, that's

672
00:34:04,135 --> 00:34:05,515
not the one I want to be wearing.

673
00:34:05,515 --> 00:34:11,281
Let's put the other one on of,
of wise and, you know, safe and

674
00:34:11,438 --> 00:34:13,595
cautious and respectful of myself.

675
00:34:14,045 --> 00:34:17,225
And how would that ladder going
upwards look, rather than the

676
00:34:17,225 --> 00:34:20,825
ladder going downwards of the
over responsibility guilty doctor?

677
00:34:21,049 --> 00:34:24,319
And when you think about, you know, the,
the person you said you tends to react in

678
00:34:24,319 --> 00:34:29,479
a blunt way, that could be your situation
X, where someone reacts in a blunt

679
00:34:29,479 --> 00:34:30,979
way to you and then you have a choice.

680
00:34:30,979 --> 00:34:32,089
But how would you.

681
00:34:32,689 --> 00:34:33,619
Interpret that.

682
00:34:33,769 --> 00:34:38,449
So you can take yourself down a defensive
ladder by telling yourself, oh, they're

683
00:34:38,449 --> 00:34:41,029
always so, so, sort of like short with me.

684
00:34:41,059 --> 00:34:43,759
They obviously don't like me that
much would be another thought.

685
00:34:43,879 --> 00:34:47,059
And then react to them with sort
of, um, a bit of a cutting remark.

686
00:34:47,329 --> 00:34:50,149
Or we can, I think the first
step is actually the same

687
00:34:50,149 --> 00:34:51,229
probably for most patterns.

688
00:34:51,229 --> 00:34:53,689
It's I wonder what's going
on for the other person.

689
00:34:54,319 --> 00:34:57,199
I mean, we've talked about this a lot
in conflict resolution, haven't we?

690
00:34:57,199 --> 00:34:59,764
And other topics that we've
discussed and I think.

691
00:35:00,649 --> 00:35:05,389
Where I found I was able to keep myself
regulated in stressful situations

692
00:35:05,419 --> 00:35:09,019
was to put my attention on the other
person first, rather than on my

693
00:35:09,019 --> 00:35:10,879
anxious state, which would be all no.

694
00:35:10,879 --> 00:35:13,819
You know, they, they, they dislike or
there, there are some sort of threat

695
00:35:13,819 --> 00:35:18,792
and if I could hold myself in that way
and ask, I wonder what's going on for

696
00:35:18,792 --> 00:35:23,987
them, doesn't excuse their behavior, but
it just enabled me to step out of my,

697
00:35:24,017 --> 00:35:26,147
I think out of my head in that moment.

698
00:35:26,147 --> 00:35:28,937
So I think for many people, and
I guess it's an invitation, is

699
00:35:28,937 --> 00:35:32,057
that first sort of next step going
upwards is just that question.

700
00:35:32,087 --> 00:35:34,667
I wonder, I wonder
what's going on for them.

701
00:35:35,385 --> 00:35:38,475
I was thinking if you did that, Sarah,
with being asked to do something

702
00:35:38,475 --> 00:35:42,645
that you don't have capacity to do
and often people's first default

703
00:35:42,705 --> 00:35:44,595
thought is, oh, I have to do it.

704
00:35:44,798 --> 00:35:45,608
That's just default.

705
00:35:45,608 --> 00:35:47,138
I have to, 'cause I've been asked to.

706
00:35:47,678 --> 00:35:50,348
And then the next thought is, I don't
really want to, but feeling really

707
00:35:50,348 --> 00:35:53,138
guilty and then probably getting
defensive, but feeling trapped.

708
00:35:53,138 --> 00:35:55,526
So what would your, what would
the other programming be?

709
00:35:55,526 --> 00:35:58,376
What would be the, I wonder
programming there instead?

710
00:35:58,814 --> 00:36:01,260
A question I sometimes ask
is, what makes you ask that?

711
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:04,650
I dunno if that's the right question,
but I'm just thinking of at home

712
00:36:04,655 --> 00:36:08,280
sometimes if, uh, you know, if, if
sometimes it has to do something,

713
00:36:08,310 --> 00:36:11,535
I'm, I'm just thinking that sometimes
I kind go just give me the context.

714
00:36:11,565 --> 00:36:16,245
'cause I think once we often understand
the context behind it, behind the demand,

715
00:36:16,485 --> 00:36:20,445
it's sometimes it's easier than to, well,
it gives us a slight bit of thinking

716
00:36:20,445 --> 00:36:24,405
space, but it also helps us to understand
where that person's coming from.

717
00:36:24,405 --> 00:36:27,945
And even then, when we need to say
no to it, we can empathize with

718
00:36:27,945 --> 00:36:29,475
the reason behind the request.

719
00:36:29,475 --> 00:36:31,065
So it's a very similar take.

720
00:36:31,365 --> 00:36:35,025
I think it's like, I wonder
what's behind the request?

721
00:36:36,045 --> 00:36:37,185
I wonder what's really going on.

722
00:36:37,185 --> 00:36:41,265
And I think that way, again, it doesn't,
rather than if I say straight away to

723
00:36:41,265 --> 00:36:44,835
myself, oh, I'm gonna have to do this,
I tend to then be annoyed with that

724
00:36:44,835 --> 00:36:49,425
person for having asked me and, and
I'm probably going to either get super,

725
00:36:49,485 --> 00:36:51,675
you know, overexplain or whatever.

726
00:36:51,675 --> 00:36:55,425
Whereas if I've thought, I wonder, yeah,
I wonder where this is coming from.

727
00:36:55,860 --> 00:36:58,530
I dunno if that would always work
because it might, people might be,

728
00:36:58,530 --> 00:37:01,110
well that's really obvious where
it's coming from, but sometimes.

729
00:37:01,187 --> 00:37:03,197
Well, I don't, I think we
assume though, it's like right,

730
00:37:03,197 --> 00:37:04,337
there's an emergency patient.

731
00:37:04,337 --> 00:37:05,207
Will you see them?

732
00:37:05,537 --> 00:37:06,437
Oh, I have to.

733
00:37:06,527 --> 00:37:08,645
Rather than, oh, I wonder
why it's an emergency.

734
00:37:08,750 --> 00:37:10,280
or why I'm, why, why I'm being

735
00:37:10,523 --> 00:37:13,670
Why I'm being asked, I'm, I'm wonder
why, I wonder where the request from.

736
00:37:13,670 --> 00:37:15,560
I wonder what makes it emergency.

737
00:37:15,950 --> 00:37:19,430
I wonder if there's any other way
of doing, of, of meeting this need.

738
00:37:19,821 --> 00:37:21,441
I wonder is a great question.

739
00:37:21,441 --> 00:37:24,081
Or I wonder what it is that the
person asking me really needs.

740
00:37:24,511 --> 00:37:26,671
Like, mom, will you take me into town?

741
00:37:27,427 --> 00:37:30,060
I wonder do they want
to spend time with me?

742
00:37:30,060 --> 00:37:31,080
Do they just need a lift?

743
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:32,910
Do they not have any
money for the train fair?

744
00:37:32,910 --> 00:37:34,040
You know, it's that, is that.

745
00:37:34,665 --> 00:37:36,615
It's that request rather than the default.

746
00:37:36,675 --> 00:37:38,955
I have to because I've been asked.

747
00:37:39,210 --> 00:37:43,275
Or an assumption made that it's
coming from a negative place, which.

748
00:37:44,190 --> 00:37:45,930
I think it's just experimenting with this.

749
00:37:45,930 --> 00:37:49,080
There's a, there's a spaciousness
that's created by being curious.

750
00:37:49,710 --> 00:37:51,965
Um, and it doesn't mean, you know,
there's times when you could, you,

751
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:54,690
you just have, there's a sense of
there isn't time to ask that question.

752
00:37:54,690 --> 00:37:58,230
But even if, say if it was an emergency,
someone's collapsed in front and you

753
00:37:58,230 --> 00:38:00,270
are, you are asked to do it, you're
probably not gonna say, oh, wonder,

754
00:38:00,330 --> 00:38:02,550
you know, why is it mean that's being
asked you just dealing with, but you

755
00:38:02,550 --> 00:38:04,560
might, you might wonder afterwards.

756
00:38:04,995 --> 00:38:07,845
And just think, you know, was the,
it's a bit like there's a reflection

757
00:38:07,845 --> 00:38:09,255
on, on a significant event, isn't it?

758
00:38:09,285 --> 00:38:12,225
Was there anything else that could have
been done differently, for example?

759
00:38:12,615 --> 00:38:16,005
You know, I certainly know when I
was, um, was working as a GP and I

760
00:38:16,005 --> 00:38:19,755
wouldn't say I wasn't the duty doctor,
but I would be getting calls from

761
00:38:19,755 --> 00:38:22,065
reception, asking me to see patients.

762
00:38:22,065 --> 00:38:25,215
And I'm thinking, I wonder why I'm
being asked when it's somebody else.

763
00:38:25,215 --> 00:38:28,230
And it was because that other
person was being really, let's

764
00:38:28,230 --> 00:38:32,340
say let's, uh, let's say less than
helpful to the reception staff.

765
00:38:32,370 --> 00:38:34,410
And so they didn't dare ask
that person were coming to

766
00:38:34,410 --> 00:38:36,180
the path of least resistance.

767
00:38:36,570 --> 00:38:38,790
And so that then required a conversation.

768
00:38:38,790 --> 00:38:40,280
So I think there's something there.

769
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:45,399
Even the question, I wonder why I'm having
such a negative reaction to being asked.

770
00:38:45,799 --> 00:38:50,639
Because there's one thing I'm learning
and that is to trust my emotions.

771
00:38:50,669 --> 00:38:54,659
Like not trust that they're off, they're
right or anything, but trust that they're

772
00:38:54,659 --> 00:38:57,185
flagging up, that there's something wrong.

773
00:38:57,245 --> 00:39:00,725
There's, you know, when I'm feeling
uncomfortable about something, I shouldn't

774
00:39:00,725 --> 00:39:01,895
just go, oh, I'm being ridiculous.

775
00:39:01,895 --> 00:39:02,825
I'm like, oh my right.

776
00:39:02,825 --> 00:39:07,055
I wonder why I am feeling
uncomfortable about this situation.

777
00:39:07,421 --> 00:39:10,151
So even just, I wonder about then just
assuming, oh, well that means that

778
00:39:10,151 --> 00:39:13,361
I've got to do, you know, or that means
that this, actually, oh, I wonder,

779
00:39:13,361 --> 00:39:14,771
I wonder why I'm feeling like that.

780
00:39:14,801 --> 00:39:19,481
What boundaries being crossed, what
doesn't feel quite right about this?

781
00:39:19,511 --> 00:39:23,371
What, you know, I'm not always blaming
myself, not always going to that.

782
00:39:23,371 --> 00:39:23,701
oh gosh.

783
00:39:23,761 --> 00:39:24,391
I ought to do it.

784
00:39:24,421 --> 00:39:25,021
I must do it.

785
00:39:25,021 --> 00:39:25,501
I should.

786
00:39:25,501 --> 00:39:27,571
I ought, but, oh, I, I wonder.

787
00:39:27,855 --> 00:39:31,838
I wonder, I think it's such a great
question because it takes away, the

788
00:39:31,838 --> 00:39:34,508
judgment, opens up possibilities.

789
00:39:34,781 --> 00:39:37,661
It helps with that sort of
recognition of patterns.

790
00:39:37,905 --> 00:39:38,990
There's so much, and I think.

791
00:39:39,690 --> 00:39:42,840
And a lot of it is just notice what you
notice, say with your feelings, isn't it?

792
00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:45,690
Just notice what you notice
and then ask yourself, what's

793
00:39:45,690 --> 00:39:46,650
that, what's that telling me?

794
00:39:46,650 --> 00:39:48,870
So I often ask a what
question rather than a why.

795
00:39:48,900 --> 00:39:50,970
So if I ask myself know,
why am I feeling like that?

796
00:39:50,970 --> 00:39:53,820
There's a always, for me, I'm a
bit sensitive to the why question.

797
00:39:54,240 --> 00:39:56,070
I feel, you know, there's
like judgment for myself.

798
00:39:56,070 --> 00:39:57,690
So it's like, what is that telling me?

799
00:39:58,055 --> 00:40:01,685
And I think just going back to when
people make requests of us or feels

800
00:40:01,685 --> 00:40:05,195
like demands, I've been talking about
this quite a bit, um, in, in other

801
00:40:05,195 --> 00:40:08,705
conversations to say we can't, it's out
of our control whether people ask us to

802
00:40:08,705 --> 00:40:11,375
do stuff that's completely outta control.

803
00:40:11,375 --> 00:40:15,335
'cause sometimes I would find myself
feeling annoyed that I was being asked.

804
00:40:15,433 --> 00:40:19,153
And then I started to realize
I have no control over whether

805
00:40:19,153 --> 00:40:19,813
I'm asked to do something.

806
00:40:19,813 --> 00:40:23,413
What I have control over is
whether I say yes or not.

807
00:40:23,713 --> 00:40:27,463
And even if I feel like I, I, I don't have
a choice about whether I say yes or not.

808
00:40:27,463 --> 00:40:30,709
I still have control over how I think
about the thing that I'm gonna do.

809
00:40:31,421 --> 00:40:33,954
So that really helped,
again, gave me freedom.

810
00:40:33,954 --> 00:40:35,184
I can think about that thing.

811
00:40:35,184 --> 00:40:38,004
I can think about that
person in a different way.

812
00:40:38,004 --> 00:40:42,354
It's not toxic positivity, it's about just
recognizing I have control over how I'm

813
00:40:42,354 --> 00:40:46,044
seeing that and reframing, and then that
impacts my emotions in a different way.

814
00:40:46,504 --> 00:40:49,894
And that's been really helpful to
let go of that because yeah, let go

815
00:40:49,894 --> 00:40:52,834
of that frustration with, oh, why
am I being asked to do even more?

816
00:40:52,864 --> 00:40:53,764
'Cause they don't know other people.

817
00:40:53,764 --> 00:40:54,629
Dunno what you've got on your plate.

818
00:40:55,178 --> 00:41:00,998
No, but I think that the less ability
we have to say no, the more annoyed

819
00:41:00,998 --> 00:41:04,448
we get with other people for asking
us things that we can't say no to.

820
00:41:04,658 --> 00:41:07,148
So how dare they ask me
because I can't say no.

821
00:41:07,148 --> 00:41:11,348
Well, that's really unfair On the
other person, they're just, they're

822
00:41:11,348 --> 00:41:15,998
just asking and I. Much prefer
someone who can say no to me because

823
00:41:15,998 --> 00:41:17,798
it means I feel freer with them.

824
00:41:17,798 --> 00:41:21,518
If I'm having to second guess that
person, and I know they'll always

825
00:41:21,518 --> 00:41:25,148
say yes because they feel obliged,
then actually I ask them a lot less

826
00:41:25,148 --> 00:41:26,618
and the relationship really suffers.

827
00:41:26,618 --> 00:41:30,638
So bizarrely, we think the relationship's
gonna suffer if we say no to that person.

828
00:41:30,638 --> 00:41:35,463
I think the relationship suffers more in
the long term if we don't feel free to say

829
00:41:35,613 --> 00:41:39,693
a wholehearted yes or no, because then we
can't be real or honest with that person.

830
00:41:39,693 --> 00:41:44,643
And, and also that is very patronizing,
isn't it, to the other person.

831
00:41:44,643 --> 00:41:49,923
If imagine if I thought that you would
never say no to me, you didn't have the

832
00:41:49,923 --> 00:41:54,333
ability to say no, then I would, I would
just that, that's me controlling you.

833
00:41:54,333 --> 00:41:57,019
That's me saying, Sarah can't
cope with me asking her for

834
00:41:57,019 --> 00:41:58,519
anything because she can't say no.

835
00:41:58,519 --> 00:42:02,260
And that's very parent child rather
than adults who Adults isn't it?

836
00:42:02,530 --> 00:42:04,270
And that's the whole thing
about boundaries, isn't it?

837
00:42:04,270 --> 00:42:05,950
That actually boundaries
improve relationships.

838
00:42:05,950 --> 00:42:08,200
I mean, people don't always
like a no, of course.

839
00:42:08,740 --> 00:42:12,130
However, there's usually, and I've
talked about this as well, in a, in

840
00:42:12,130 --> 00:42:16,480
a, in with reasonable people, people
either they don't like your, no, they

841
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:19,540
will, they will respect you for that.

842
00:42:19,885 --> 00:42:22,075
And I think that's where we know when
it's, when you're dealing with someone

843
00:42:22,075 --> 00:42:25,975
who's, who's not reasonable, that's
when you get the sort of toxic response.

844
00:42:26,005 --> 00:42:29,125
But yeah, I mean, in, in our working
relationship, we've very much

845
00:42:29,125 --> 00:42:31,915
given each other that sort of overt
permission, haven't we, to do that

846
00:42:31,915 --> 00:42:35,305
because then we know where we are and
we trust that the other person's adult

847
00:42:35,305 --> 00:42:37,645
enough to be honest with, with that.

848
00:42:37,795 --> 00:42:39,175
And I think that's so, so key

849
00:42:39,586 --> 00:42:40,966
Yeah, it's important for relationship.

850
00:42:40,966 --> 00:42:44,176
In our Permission to Thrive membership,
we have a, a phrase, which I think

851
00:42:44,176 --> 00:42:45,946
came from Derek Sivers originally.

852
00:42:46,006 --> 00:42:49,066
He's a really good, sort of thought
leader, philosopher, but it's,

853
00:42:49,156 --> 00:42:50,866
it's either a hell yes or a no.

854
00:42:51,196 --> 00:42:55,306
So if we could, our default could be no,
rather than yes, and we only really say

855
00:42:55,306 --> 00:42:59,386
yes to something if it feels like a hell
yeah, then that, that seems to be quite a,

856
00:43:00,076 --> 00:43:03,316
a good way of managing, well see some of
the really big things we're asked to do.

857
00:43:03,436 --> 00:43:03,826
Yeah.

858
00:43:03,826 --> 00:43:06,166
I, I read something
about having a slow yes.

859
00:43:07,051 --> 00:43:09,121
So faster no and a slow Yes.

860
00:43:09,121 --> 00:43:11,881
When, particularly if you're in a
position of leadership, just because

861
00:43:11,971 --> 00:43:13,411
you will have a lot more requests.

862
00:43:13,981 --> 00:43:17,041
Um, so just have, yeah, just
having that kind of, that balance.

863
00:43:17,041 --> 00:43:17,881
And it's not, yeah.

864
00:43:17,941 --> 00:43:20,281
I mean, of course you've gotta wave
up, but sometimes it's better to

865
00:43:20,281 --> 00:43:23,581
do a, a fast no, and then you can
always, you can always go back and

866
00:43:23,581 --> 00:43:24,841
say, I've been thinking about it.

867
00:43:24,841 --> 00:43:26,971
Actually, that is something
I would be able to do.

868
00:43:27,241 --> 00:43:30,991
It's easier to do it
that way than a fast yes.

869
00:43:31,051 --> 00:43:32,711
And the need to take that back, so.

870
00:43:32,959 --> 00:43:33,169
Right.

871
00:43:33,169 --> 00:43:36,465
On that note, Sarah, what top three
tips would you have for someone who is

872
00:43:36,465 --> 00:43:40,605
really struggling with this programming
that they've, you know, obviously

873
00:43:40,605 --> 00:43:44,625
been hardwired into them since, since
they've been a, a child, which is really

874
00:43:44,625 --> 00:43:47,835
causing them just to take on too much
and not be able to say no to things?

875
00:43:48,045 --> 00:43:51,694
I think I would start with
just noticing what you notice.

876
00:43:52,839 --> 00:43:57,789
So almost that self observation,
gentle reflection, just having a couple

877
00:43:57,789 --> 00:43:59,709
of questions just to ask yourself.

878
00:44:00,609 --> 00:44:03,819
And then even if you can just do
that first step that takes you down

879
00:44:03,819 --> 00:44:06,669
the ladder and what's the first
step that might move you up the

880
00:44:06,669 --> 00:44:08,829
way, it's just one shift, isn't it?

881
00:44:08,829 --> 00:44:10,779
And you will end up in a
very different direction.

882
00:44:10,959 --> 00:44:12,354
And I think those are
the three things, yeah.

883
00:44:12,459 --> 00:44:14,619
So just notice what you notice.

884
00:44:14,889 --> 00:44:16,929
See what you feel like
you need to lean into.

885
00:44:16,989 --> 00:44:21,749
What would be one situation that you would
love to be different, and then just, just

886
00:44:21,749 --> 00:44:25,379
to start thinking about what that first
step down, so you've got the warning

887
00:44:25,379 --> 00:44:27,449
sign and what might be the first step up?

888
00:44:27,579 --> 00:44:27,910
Brilliant.

889
00:44:27,910 --> 00:44:28,750
That's so helpful, Sarah.

890
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:30,430
I love that ladder of consequence.

891
00:44:30,830 --> 00:44:31,990
Really, really helpful.

892
00:44:32,240 --> 00:44:36,830
And, uh, Sarah is a regular guest
on our Monthly hot topics podcast,

893
00:44:36,830 --> 00:44:39,710
which is there in our FrogXtra
and FrogXtra Gold membership.

894
00:44:39,710 --> 00:44:43,580
So if you wanna hear, um, lots more
from Sarah on a monthly basis, uh, in

895
00:44:43,580 --> 00:44:46,190
conversation with me about the things
that have been coming up for us every

896
00:44:46,190 --> 00:44:48,050
month, then do think about joining.

897
00:44:48,457 --> 00:44:52,717
Sarah, if people wanna find out more
about your work, um, about, um, the Shapes

898
00:44:52,727 --> 00:44:53,652
Toolkit training, where can they go?

899
00:44:53,882 --> 00:44:57,362
Yeah, so on our websites, that's
wildmonday.co.uk and have a look

900
00:44:57,362 --> 00:44:58,772
at the training that we offer.

901
00:44:59,162 --> 00:45:02,822
And also you can find me on LinkedIn,
so Dr. Sarah Coope on LinkedIn and

902
00:45:02,990 --> 00:45:06,230
it's lots, lots of resources that you
can also download from our website.

903
00:45:06,492 --> 00:45:08,502
Yeah, and, and we run stuff on conflict.

904
00:45:08,502 --> 00:45:12,162
We run stuff on, you know, how to even
have those conflict conversations,

905
00:45:12,192 --> 00:45:15,732
um, how to say no and deal with
pushback, all those sorts of things.

906
00:45:15,732 --> 00:45:20,922
So just, um, drop an email, get in touch,
book a call with Sarah to discuss how

907
00:45:20,982 --> 00:45:22,332
uh, she can come and help your team.

908
00:45:22,332 --> 00:45:24,852
So Sarah, thank you so much
for being on the podcast.

909
00:45:24,852 --> 00:45:25,297
We'll speak to you soon.

910
00:45:25,397 --> 00:45:25,787
Thank you.

911
00:45:27,529 --> 00:45:28,459
Thanks for listening.

912
00:45:28,559 --> 00:45:33,019
Don't forget, you can get extra bonus
episodes and audio courses along with

913
00:45:33,109 --> 00:45:37,939
unlimited access to our library of
videos and CPD workbooks by joining

914
00:45:38,019 --> 00:45:42,479
FrogXtra and FrogXtra Gold, our
memberships to help busy professionals

915
00:45:42,479 --> 00:45:45,449
like you beat burnout and work happier.

916
00:45:45,822 --> 00:45:49,342
Find out more at
youarenotafrog.com/members.