There's no end point and the end point is full and total liberation. And until then we keep

moving.

Welcome to Blueprints of Disruption. I'm your host, Jess McLean. Those last sounds you just

heard were that of Palestinian children making their way back into the north parts of Gaza

following a 42-day ceasefire agreement. You also heard Fatima Saleh, an Edmonton-based

Palestinian activist who will be joined by Anna Lippmann from Independent Jewish Voices for

our next episode. We called both of these formidable people back into our studio to react to that

ceasefire announcement, but also to reflect back on how far the movement has come. We take

time to remember some of the gains made and the victories won, but not without losing sight

of the work ahead. Even after all this time, we're still finding new ways to end the occupation,

hold politicians accountable, and solidify our support for the people of Gaza. To that end,

our call to action for this episode is in the show notes, where we've put a bunch of ways

you can help out right now, including a string of GoFundMe's and local initiatives. So please

take a moment to check that out. Now let's get to reintroducing our guests. Yeah, absolutely.

My name is Fatima Saleh. I am currently on Treaty Six territory here in the Meskwetib-Waskai

again. traditional lands of Nehaya, Wapdine, Solone, Nikota, Soto, and Metis. And yeah,

I'm happy to be with you. Hey everyone, I'm Anna Lickman, tuning in from Toronto, the traditional

home of the Anishinaabe, the Haudenosaunee, and the Huron-Wendat. I'm very happy to be

with you all here. I very much appreciate your time, especially considering it's a bit of

an emotional one. It's a bit... It's a bit complicated and we are just two days post the beginning

of the ceasefire. And I wanted to check in with some people that have spent hundreds of days,

460 plus days and more, but fiercely advocating for Palestine because these are the people

I first thought of when the announcement of a ceasefire came. It obviously came with trepidation,

but I was hopeful for my comrades here and others that are really in the thick of the fight.

So we're going to check in with Anna and with Fatima and then we're going to talk about the

ceasefire and a little bit, but mostly we're going to take stock and look back a little

bit on where we've come as a movement and where we can go. Hopefully this will help people

process this moment as well, because I'm having trouble. Um, Fatima, like what did you think

when you knew the ceasefire was very close? Honestly, there was such a mix of emotions,

like first and foremost, relief. Just relief that there's, you know, the execution order

has somewhat been lifted off of this incredibly dense population that has the same population

density as New York City. And the fact that there's not going to be, hopefully, inshallah,

carpet bombs happening and these targeted, this targeting of healthcare systems and everything

going on there, it feels like a state of execution at least for now. And I say that really intentionally

because a ceasefire, and you might have seen me tweet this, a ceasefire doesn't mean that

this is the end. You know, it means that for right now. the blade has been lifted from the

neck. And there is cause for joy in that because at the beginning of all of this, Israel put

out some very, and Israel put out very clear, and Netanyahu put out very clear objectives

that he wanted to accomplish in Gaza. And for 15 months, the core of the resistance was to

just not be erased, to not be pushed completely off the map, to not be completely decimated.

And genocide did not start on October 7th. Genocide escalated on October 7th. And genocide is not

going to end with this specific ceasefire. We've had ceasefires before. It's going to pause

or slow down. And until we all really get into that mindset that we can't take our feet off

the gas in structures here in empire where we live. and making sure that we're educating

and drawing attention to what's happening in Gaza, but also in the West Bank, but also in

places where all of growths are being torched, where people are still being displaced and

forcibly dispossessed of their homes in Palestine. It's just, it was a relief mixed with anxiety

because this staged plan, it's not very clear what's happening. It doesn't give a lot of

details about how this the third stage specifically is going to go and how that's going to what

guys is going to look like and so yeah relief and also a lot of Prepedation about what's

coming next All valid, you know complete and it Anna for folks who can't see Anna just nodding

her head emphatically but and I'm still gonna go to you even though you seem to agree with

everything Fatima had to say but I think everyone also had like that personal moment of, you

know, where were you and what did it feel like? I mean, there was like, we knew they were in

talks for a ceasefire. This wasn't news news, but there was, there seemed to be a moment

there where it was sure and we saw celebrations and that felt a little different than anything

we'd experienced in a long time. How did you feel?

you know, the realization, the joy that like people will stop dying for at least 42 days

was just amazing. And then also, you know, trying to kind of stop myself from getting too happy

just knowing what Israel does during a ceasefire, how fragile this ceasefire is. how much there

is still to go, right? And so I think especially kind of talking to the folks that I've been

supporting in Gaza, like when the ceasefire was announced, when they sent me a voicemail,

the first voicemail message I got was like, alhamdulillah, I've never been so happy. And

it was just so amazing to hear, right? But of course, you know, over the next days, we start

thinking like, How are we gonna get this family of 10 out? How are we gonna get them money

to rebuild their house if they stay? How are we gonna get the medical attention? Will they

be eating tomorrow as they're still alive? All the conditions are still there, right? And

so, I said the day it was announced, we celebrate today and we get to work tomorrow, right? Because...

The joy that is being felt not only in Gaza, but when the prisoners were released, like

90 people reunited with their families, you know, that's nothing small. We have to celebrate

that and recognize that. But like Fatima said, you know, like the work doesn't end at a ceasefire.

Like this is literally the bare minimum after screaming for 15 months, right? And so this

is the floor and not the ceiling, right? And you've maintained that. Many people have maintained

that from the beginning of the calls for a ceasefire, right? Because maybe it was Fatima who edited

out if I'm wrong. Part of your tweet was when talking about what the ceasefire isn't, it

wasn't an end to the occupation or the siege or thousands of prisoners returning to their

families. Sorry. Palestinian captives returning to their families. And that was always the

work from the very beginning before it escalated into this refocusing on a ceasefire and an

arms embargo, which I imagine is still part of the battle. Yeah, for sure. I wanna touch

a little bit on what Anna said about celebrations. I think it's so important to celebrate the

wins along the way. And the fact that Like I said, Netanyahu had a specific idea of what

was going to happen in Gaza and the fact that he could not get there is a cause for celebration.

The resistance won. And the resistance to not to just be able to live, to survive, that is

a win. That is something we must celebrate 100 percent. And when I saw journalists taking

off their flak jackets for the first time and swapping them out for a keffiye, it is so emotional

to watch this. You know what I mean? Abu Bakr, a 22 year old journalist who he wants to report

on sports. And he has now become a journalist for a genocide. And the fact that he can maybe,

you know, and I've seen his tweets, I've corresponded with him and the fact that he's just so excited

that this might be a reprieve, yes, we need to celebrate that. But I want to draw it back

to these lands on Turtle Island. We celebrate here because our families, again, they're,

it's a state of execution. But we have to remember that we effectively in Canada, I don't feel

like we got enough done. I don't feel like we got much done. Like you said, there is still

an arms embargo that needs to be achieved on these lands. And this government refuses, absolutely

refuses to hear the screams of. there are people from coast to coast to coast that have been

out in the streets every single week for 15 months. It's absolutely ridiculous that people

who are disrupting Christopher Ulyan's announcement to run for prime minister, I know, are being

shot down as if they don't have a right to free speech. So it's just the fact, we just have

to remember that imperialism is here too, and to educate ourselves. and our own community

specifically on how it's connected here. They're never going to acknowledge it because they

know that it's occurring here as well. They're not going to say, oh yeah, Palestine needs

to be free. Like they keep pushing these talking points about a two-state solution. You don't

even recognize one of the states. How are you pushing this talking point that makes absolutely

no sense? It's just to evade the actual issue at hand, the fact that you continue to arm

this genocidal entity. and lie about it because we know the number say 28.5 million in 2023

or whatever it was but that's what's on that's what's regulated what's going out that's unregulated

it's really concerning to me that we don't have that transparency from this government we don't

know how much arms have really gone through how much components have really gone through

and how much they're actually standing to make from it it's really concerning am i wrong to

think that we were possibly already at a point of transition in the movement, like a need

to reflect back and maybe shift tactics of sorts, or because the way you described, like keep

our foot on that pedal. But any turns, can we look back and see how we've shifted tactically?

It's important to recognize that where we are today, in January 2025 is so different than

where we were January 2022, right? Like the amount of knowledge that the average person

now has on what is going on in Palestine has vastly changed around the globe and here in

Canada and the United States, right? And so I think it's really important that we don't

turn back from this moment. Like there can't be any going back to a time where people say,

Oh, I don't know what's happening. I am not aware. Right? Like this is the moment where

we have to double down in this, at least 42 days of You know, I like what you said, like

this state of execution, right? And this is when we really need to be pushing for things

like a two-way arms embargo, actual government sanctions on Israel, right? And the concrete

steps that Canada needs to take to commit to justice and the basic international relations

that they have with... pretty much every other country in the world. Canada has put sanctions

on most war criminal countries, right? And we need to continue to challenge this Palestine

exception, right? It's no longer acceptable knowing what we know now. Yeah. You know, what

we were able to talk about online, in person, as we advocate with different... groups, organizations,

politicians, whatever it may be, is very different from October 6th to now. It is incredibly,

just a different story. I remember just educating two years ago on Kifi and what it meant and

the fact that it's not a terrorist symbol because this is the actual history behind it. And explaining

to people, no, there is a place called Palestine. No, I'm not from Pakistan. It's a different

thing. And now... like Anna said, nobody can claim to not know. You can't unsee what you've

seen. You can't unhear what you've heard. This has been live streamed to the world for the

last 15 months. And I think it's really interesting to look at specifically resistance in Palestine

and how perception to that resistance may have changed for a lot of people. And I think that,

I was just saying this to somebody the other day, I find it so interesting that couple of

years ago, you could not say Hamas to anybody because nobody understood it. Nobody knew it.

Nobody understood what resistance means. Like decolonization is not going to be pretty. And

now you can talk about it in a, in a way to explain, like, what did you expect to happen?

What did you expect to happen in the sense of, you know, Gaza was unlivable at 2020. There

was not enough water. There was not enough food. never mind what it looks like now, but resistance

is the only way out of this. You know, somebody said to me, the only way out of this is international

law. And I said, no, they didn't. Not now. They can't say that now. No, I mean, and that's

the whole point is you, it's never, it's going to be, that has a place. You know what I mean?

The ICJ rulings, it has a place, sure. But the only thing that's going to a population from

being completely eradicated is resistance to that, resistance to colonialism, resistance

to imperialism. What else do you expect? And it's one of the Palestinian the wabbit is the

right to armed resistance because you know if somebody is carpet bombing you, how do you

not resist that? So I think it's then till now and where we've come in the last 15 months

is the narrative has completely shifted. It's been before where you had to, you know, claw

your way into a conversation on Palestine. And now it's very different because it has been

live streamed to the world. And I don't think Israel was banking on how, how much perception

of the Israeli state has changed. In terms of like knowledge and people have seen and heard

a lot. That goes for politicians too, right? You're at a different starting point with the

powerful. You no longer need, or at least feel the need or obligation to book a meeting and

explain the situation in Palestine and, you know, trauma dump on them in order to get them

to come along. It's like there's a certain expectation now on politicians and a threshold, and people

are not going to take any shit on that front. I think like the public in general has come

along. Just a pause there for the people who disrupted freelance. launch. I cannot explain

the joy that you've brought me in the past two days. I don't, I have a personal beef with

that MP. It goes, it's a boring story, but watching her whole political career flounder because

of those folks that infiltrated her launch in that gym, that school gym, which looked pathetic

to begin with, those seemingly small actions, which were well coordinated. folks, it's a

lot of organizers listening and activists who are listening. That staged interruption, I

mean, she just, the images that people were able to pull out of there, I hope that haunts

politicians for a long, long time. Even when they think we've forgotten about it or they

can move on to a leadership race, that we're not still going to be pestering them at every

turn. So yeah, no, like I still have such smiles because it's just, you know. Not that I have

a front runner for the liberals. I'm not cheering for them in any way, but just thank you. You

could just tell that she was holding back that I'm speaking line. Like Kamala's line? Yeah,

and I think it's really important to note that the whole world really, whether it's like fully

true or not, or there's different elements that came into play, but I think the whole world

understands that when Kamala did not back... on arms embargo, it truly affected her campaign.

And we have to know that they're looking at that. They're seeing that. People like Christa

Freeland and others, they understand that is going to be a thing. How that plays out politically

within the landscape of Canada, I don't know. But you have to know that they've seen it.

Our movement is so much more powerful. It's so much more powerful. It has a voice. And

it's always had a voice, I think, but specifically on these lands. how much the narrative has

shifted and it's moved forward in a way that we can now organize from power. And I think

never before in Canada has Palestine been a voting issue, you know? So it's just incredible.

Globally too, right? More and more countries in the past year have recognized Palestine.

Why Ireland wasn't already on that list? Like as I'm going through it, it's, you know, Spain,

Norway, Jamaica, Slovenia. Trinidad and Tobago, Bahamas and Barbados, just a shout out. But

then Ireland, I was like, why are they just coming around? But either way, it's part of

that larger signal that the whole global perspective on the, on apartheid, on the occupation and

just the mask, masks are falling off everywhere. I mean, that does make our job easier as disruptors,

right, to know our enemies more closely. Because Fatima, you mentioned- we're able to say Hamas,

we're able to talk about armed resistance and other things, but we're also confronted with

an unprecedented level of vitriol. Things that would have made people just look like maniacal

and foolish are now almost like the commonplace in the comments. And I think that that's a

mask off. You have even liberal supporters just saying, I hope Israel gets all the land. And

you're just like, okay, well, it's very effective to know where your enemies lie. Were you surprised

in the past year by the callousness of our politicians? Did you think they could be swayed at the beginning?

No, I wasn't surprised at all. I think if you asked any Palestinian, you're gonna get the

same answer. It's the bare minimum, the bar is on the floor. But anytime you do get any

modicum of support, you're like, that's kind of shocking, that's never happened before.

So it's like a double-edged sword where you're like, okay, this is obviously something you

should be supporting because it's just so clear. But at the same time, because it's never happened

before, where we've had true advocates were absolutely like thrilled. You know, as much

as they're not even doing as much as they should be. It's just, I think from my perspective,

we've never had that before. Like I've been in, I'm 40. I've never seen it before. I've

never seen a watermelon pin in the legislature. Yeah, a non-Arab non-Muslim like Heather McPherson,

who you know is amazing, shout out to her. But at the same time, there's so much work to be

done. Like I call her all the time and I'm like, listen, this is how, I don't like how this

was framed or I don't like that, you know what I mean? We're having those conversations and

we never had that path before to actually sit and have these conversations. But I think it's

not just that we've never had the path before, it's activists specifically speaking to politicians

where it's not organizations, it's not groups that are worried about whether or not it's

their charitable status or whatever it might be. Like real people. on the ground who are

saying, this is what we see, we're also your constituents, this is what more people are

seeing. And then having this groundswell of support through these rallies, it sucks that

we've had to have them for this long, it sucks the reason for it. But if there's no silver

lining to genocide, but if there is any positive to come out of this, it's the connections that

have been made. And the fact that we all understand as we look at a... a pro-Palestine rally, it

doesn't look like one thing. It doesn't look like Muslim Arabs. There's so many different

people there, every ethnicity, every race, every gender, every sexual orientation, everybody

is there. And it's connecting everybody. And then also making sure that as we're connecting

people, as we were having these conversations to understand free Palestine is not just about

Palestine. It really is a global anti-imperial, anti-empire movement. So, We have to connect

it to Haiti, to Sudan, to all of the other, to Kashmir, to all of the, everything else

is Congo. What's going on in the world? I think that's what makes these politicians and empire

fearful, is they see what could be through these sustained protests and through the sustained

activism. If Palestine is free, who's next? Like, we're saying it. And we're truly thinking

like, who is next? In what world is imperialism gonna be okay or colonization of any people

going to be okay? Because you're gonna see this pushback and this absolute, like we're not

gonna take it anymore. It's not gonna happen. Anna, did you wanna add to that? Yeah, I mean,

I totally agree. And I think it goes back to what Fatima was saying before we started recording,

right? Like imperialism. and colonialism makes great bedfellows, right? And when Canada sees

what's happening to its bestie Israel, it makes them nervous, right? Because we have a lot

of reckoning to do with our own history of genocide, of imperialism, of colonialism, right? I think

politicians understand that this is a global movement and... we're coming for them next,

right? I think in a lot of ways, they're scared. You know, I have the terrible, terrible luck

of having my MP be Christia Freeland, right? And God knows she has never met with a pro-Palestine

constituent, right? But we've come to her. She's seen us in the street. She hasn't go to her

office. We came to the Boys and Girls Club, right? Like, so... They feel the pressure,

right? And for folks who can't be moved from their humanity and morality, may they be moved

by their political aspirations and the demands of their constituents, you know? Or may they

fall. A lot of them we could just do without totally. It's almost, it's a filter, right?

needs to do all that work bringing those folks along just to save their political careers,

just for them to likely repeat this down the road. But I think I asked the audience, our

audience, if they were to be able to talk to Palestinian solidarity activists following

the ceasefire, what would they ask them? And mostly focused on upcoming elections. It's

like that moment in time where people feel like an extra bit of political power or not, and

they want to know what to do with it. Is their allies or, you know, should they be more focused

on holding folks accountable both? How are you folks looking at these regime changes, right?

There's a liberal leadership race, if that matters to anybody. It's a point of interjection, as

we've seen with freelance disruption. It's a- possibly a federal election. A lot of our audience

is in Ontario and there was a possible election there provincially. So any advice for folks

on how to utilize campaign times or election times as a pressure point? Yeah, I'm gonna

refer to what Nora Aracat said when she was in Edmonton. And I got a very brief chance

to talk to her. before her talk, but she really honed in on an aspect that I have been kind

of moving forward with since that conversation. And she said, it's time to organize from power.

It's really time to see where we can move forward and how we can move forward and continue to

organize from power. So no matter what we're going to be principled, we're going to stick

with the Tho'abath, You know what I mean? We're going to make sure that those principles move

forward. But at the same time, somebody like me knows that Palestine or anybody's freedom

is not coming through voting blocks. It's not coming through international law. It's not

coming through these structures that are deeply rooted in white supremacy. At the same time,

we need to organize from power. We have, like you said, a voice. Now the Palestinian solidarity

movement is a voting issue. All of it needs to be brought forward. And what happened at

Christa Freeland's office needs to continue to happen, in my opinion. We need to continue

to take those hard questions to the people in power or the people who seek power and make

sure that they know that we're going to be there and we're going to hold them to account. We're

going to hold their feet to the fire and make sure they understand that their policy decisions

are going to have ramifications. It's not just a fringe group of Arab Palestinians and anti-Zionist

wider support now that we can actually, it feels like for the first time, organize from power

and really kind of bring forward a voice and say, we are not going to accept this from you.

And unless you do ABC, you're not getting our vote. This is kind of, this is where we're

at right now when it comes to these, these institutions to be like, I don't really have much faith

in any liberal leadership and I would probably disrupt any liberal event that was happening

here because you are complicit in the genocide of my people. And at the same time, this is

what we want. Yeah, you don't have to ask nicely. There's no rule that says you have to ask nicely.

And I think it'd be impossible to not have Palestine and our response to it be an election issue

if it haunts them on the campaign trail. If it's, you know, the backdrop to all of their

pressers, it's, you know, it's not going to come from asking nicely or try to meet with

these folks. And I think I'm grateful that folks have come around to that point. I think at

this point we're better equipped. You mentioned having better connections with more people

and far more defiant in our approach to getting what we want. And yeah, the reaffirmation of

resistance. I mean, just today the video circulating of resistance fighters lined up and media,

one of the journalists in Gaza is saying, you know, see Benjamin Netanyahu said he killed

all these people. He destroyed the resistance. Here they are here, you know, and everyone

is just sharing this and liking this and that would have been completely unheard of. Before

October 7th and even in the days after, like so much work has been done to get to that point

and to not lose a step. because of October 7th, you know, not to be able to have to pull back

that statement that armed resistance is still in fact a right, but maybe not under a ceasefire,

right? That's when it becomes a little more complicated, but we're not here to unpack that.

I'm not springing that on you. But I did mention before we started hitting record, I was going

to ask you about, we normally do Canadian content, but it is hard to ignore the elephant in the

room. And that's not very nice to elephants. Donald Trump was interviewed in the Oval Office

yesterday, which was a horrible day for a lot of activists still processing this, what's

happening here. But someone was pressing him on Gaza. I'd like to know who that was, like

kudos. They tried to get answers out of them. Can I play the clip for you? It's hard to hear,

honestly, just kind of a warning. He's very cold, as the man is. But, you know, he's asked...

First he's asked about the ceasefire holding, and then he's asked about what you talked about,

Fatima, in terms of what will Gaza look like. ..that you can keep the ceasefire in Gaza and

conclude the three phases of this deal. I'm not confident. This is not our war. It's their

war, but... Apologize. I'm not confident, but I think they're very weakened on the other

side. Do you support the Tuesday... Gaza, boy. I looked at a picture of Gaza. Gaza is like

a massive demolition site. That place is, it's really got to be rebuilt in a different way.

Are you meant to help in rebuilding Gaza? I might. You know Gaza is interesting. It's a

phenomenal location. On the sea. best weather. You know, everything's good. It's like some

beautiful things could be done with it, but it's very interesting. But some fantastic things

could be done with Gaza. How do you see the future in governance for Gaza? Well, it depends.

I can't imagine you could have, well, you certainly can't have the people that were there. Most

of them are dead. Sorry if you hadn't heard that. I don't know. It still makes me really...

angry listening to that he's speaking about Gaza like a perspective development site for

vacation homes. It's hard not to even, you know, people who can go watch the video, I'll link

it in the show notes, even the way he's just pondering, it seems it's so nonchalant to yeah,

like, yeah, what could we do with that demolition site now that it's empty? And you know, this

goes back to the very first calls of activists, Palestinian solidarity activists everywhere,

that this was all about taking land. It was never about clearing Hamas or retribution or

hostages. It was always, always about acquiring more of Palestine and turning it into Mar-a-Lago

is what it sounds like now. It really does sound like exactly what we've been talking about

is settler colonialism. It's not about just erasing a people, but also always expanding,

always gaining more land, always gaining more resources. And we know Gaza's geopolitical

location, like the actual location of Gaza, is so important to this imperial core. And

so from the beginning, you know, we've been saying in all palestines, I think, no, that

this is not about Hamas. Hamas was in 1987 and it's been happening since before that. So it's

not about Hamas, it's not about October 7th. It's always been about the land. it's always

been about acquiring more and more and more because it's never enough for the settler colony.

It's never enough, same with these lands. It's never enough. There's always trying to take

more and more and more. And you just hear in his comments, the complete dehumanization of

Palestinians because he does not even speak about the 2 million people that are there.

He does not even acknowledge that there is a group of people living on this land. He's looking

at it. you know, just like the far right in Israel does. Like they were going on those

boat tours, if you remember. They were like taking boat tours to see like, this is going

to be your new home. We're gonna build a settlement here and this is what it's gonna look like

and look at these gorgeous beaches. And it's just about the fact that it's that entitlement

to think that you just, it's all yours. And where are these people gonna go? And there

was talk a few months ago, I can't remember how many months ago about we're going to create

four camps in the Golan Heights or wherever it was in Egypt, four camps and there's going

to be 500,000 people per camp and that way Gaza will be fully empty. And there's talking about

this like it's a completely normal thing and it is for imperialism. Exactly, it is normal

for them. This is the norm. So as Indigenous people to the land you're like What do you

mean you're going to just come in? It always reminds me of the Al-Qurt family. And Jacob

always, I always come back to that where I'm like, for him, it's just a foregone conclusion.

You know, an imperialist and colonialist, it's just a foregone conclusion. At some point,

this is going to happen. And then you have the people that are there going, what do you mean?

You can't just take this. And that's at the core of this. So. It doesn't matter to these

structures how many people get slaughtered, in what way they get slaughtered, if they're

children. The fact that Gaza is 50% under the age of 18 years old. None of these statistics

matter. It's going to, they're going to continue to pull these things because they've done it

before. And we would be remiss not to talk about what's happening right now in the West Bank.

And the fact that the day after a ceasefire, Israel decides to name a new operation in the

West Bank, Operation Iron Wall. and name terrorists, we have to get control of the terrorism that's

happening in the West Bank. And I have

an activist friend here of mine who was originally born and raised in Palestine, lives here and

has his cousin was in the video with the child that was sniped in the West Bank in Jenin.

And he was celebrating yesterday. And very excited about the ceasefire and it just shifts because

if everybody's eyes are off of Gaza right now because of the ceasefire, then we have to understand

that it's all of Palestine that needs to, there needs to be a cessation to occupation. There

needs to be a cessation to apartheid. We need to get to an idea where people can live freely

on this land without and with equal rights. And until empire comes to that. which I don't

think they ever will, we have to, you know, you can't, with the ceasefire specifically

and talking about how like, you know, resistance groups, they need to cease as well, does that

not include the West Bank then? Because if Netanyahu is doing it and doing a ceasefire, which they

haven't, they've already violated it in Gaza specifically, in Rafah, what does it mean?

It doesn't mean anything. Are you just, did you just put it out because the inauguration?

Did you just put it out there? and sign these things to get people to celebrate. People in

Gaza 100% deserve to celebrate. But outside, in the outside world, I hear conversations

about, okay, well, what's next? What do you mean what's next? We're still in this fight.

We haven't moved on to another phase. We're all still in the same place we were yesterday

because nothing has effectively ended when you think about Palestine as a whole, which we

have to because it's a Zionist narrative to continue to separate the West Bank from Gaza.

and to continue to separate Palestinians that have been forcibly displaced out of the land

from Palestinians in the land. We have to look at it as one entity because it's never going

to be free until it's all free. And I know that just sounds like I'm spouting off these pretty

lines, but it's so true. It's so true that, you know, it stops in one spot and it picks

up in another. You have 90 prisoners released, or sorry, 90 captives released, and some of

whom are as young as 12 years old. But at the same time, there's administrative detention

that's still taking in the same amount, if not more, without charge or trial for God knows

how many months. So like, are we presenting a full narrative of what is happening? Because

how many more are going to be, and even the ones that have been released, those were all

re-abducted. A lot of them originally were re-abducted and now they're getting released. So inshallah

they don't get re-abducted, inshallah this is actually a step forward. But I can't help as

a Palestinian to be like, okay, you can't make deals with another entity that has never kept

its word and is never to be trusted. It's hard. This moment is really difficult. Yeah, because

I'm going through my head. I don't want to ask this question, but is there not then danger

in celebrating? That sounds so awful, but... you know, you have allies on the sidelines,

right, who maybe don't fully understand the complexities of a ceasefire and whatnot. And

if they see celebrating, will they come back? Will they still feel the urgency that we need

them to have? But you don't want to deny anybody that breath or the acknowledgement that the

situation on the ground in Gaza, it's night and day compared to the end of the world. or

compared to the carpet bombing and those just huge, huge bombs going off all the time. So

yeah, it's so complicated because yeah, you have, there has to be balance though. Folks

needed that breath, even if it was just to, okay, got to keep going. You know, that deep

breath, that second wind, third or fourth wind at this point, right? Yeah. I just feel like

this is where education happens. I know a lot of people in the movement now that have just

learned about it and are just starting. And I feel like this is part of that process. Two

things can be true at the same time. We can celebrate and still be working. We can, people

in Gaza deserve to celebrate at the same time as they're going back to the North and they're

finding bodies on the ground, decomposed bodies on the ground. They're finding their homes

on the floor. Two things can be true at once. I know that they are happy that... there is

a ceasefire and I also know that they are completely scrambling for like Anna said, food. What are

we doing next? How are we rebuilding? How are we gonna get, like the first thing is going

to be getting some sort of actual healthcare system going and not just field hospitals and

you know, and the second thing is going to be trying to get schools back, we know that Gaza's

population is so entrenched in knowledge and they want to learn and they are some of the

most literate, like some of the most educated people on earth. I think their PhD or something

like they have the highest concentration of doctors or PhDs in the world. And, you know,

a huge loss, a huge loss was Dr. Rafat Al-Adid, Allah Yash'hamu. It's just a huge loss because,

you know, as much as he did in that context of educating Gaza, of educating the world about

Gaza, it's like, it's difficult. So I think that people... To answer your question, people,

allies that are looking at this from the outside, I think this is education time to understand

that yeah, this happens. We've seen ceasefires before, we've seen them violated before, we've

seen the continuation of occupation and more land grabs and more ethnic cleansing through

ceasefires. And like what people have said it multiple times, there was a ceasefire on October

6th and then you had articles and articles and articles of, you know, people being killed

in the West Bank or people being killed in Gaza or water being, it's just a structure. And

it's like you have to understand that it doesn't end with this win. You know, there's no end

point and the end point is full and total liberation. And until then, we keep moving. To our to our

US comrades who are facing a regime change there and wondering what they should be doing. But

also, you mentioned supporting folks in Gaza, like directly. Perhaps there's a way for listeners

to be able to do that on top of, you know, we've talked about pressuring politicians and attending

rallies and disrupting things, but what haven't we talked about in terms of ways to support

people in Gaza? There is a lot of, you know, misplaced hubris within colonial and white

supremacist structures and people like Trump and people like Netanyahu. They talk as if

they're so certain that, you know, what they're gonna do is gonna succeed, right? And we've

seen, you know, these statements over the past 15 months about what they're gonna accomplish

in Gaza against what they have accomplished, which is awful and terrible, but also far from

what they claimed, right? And so I think it's important to recognize that, you know, Resistance

takes so many forms and there are so many ways that the people of Palestine are resisting

and all of them are so beautiful and even one of those ways is taking joy, right? Is taking

these moments to celebrate and I don't think Israelis hate anything more than seeing joy

in Palestinian lives, which is why they literally went to the families before the exchange and

told them like, no celebrations, right? But you know, there's so many ways that people

in Palestine continue to resist, whether it's through education, whether it's through this

rebuilding, whether it's through just like, you know, getting to watch report on play football,

you know? Um, and, and so that I think is, is the right and the will of Palestinians. And

it's not on, on allies to question that or take that away. Right. And it also doesn't mean

that we as allies have the opportunity or the same. kind of social location identity that

we can take a break when Palestinians in Gaza do. Because our situation is very different.

Our role here is to continue to support that resistance, whether it be children throwing

rocks or whether it be little girls becoming doctors. And so I will plug. You know, there's

so many GoFundMe's out right now. Every single Gozin pretty much has a GoFundMe, right? And

people have been donating, but that need is still there, right? And even as the bombs stop,

like, people, if they can, are going back to their homes to collect their rubble. And so...

There needs to be rebuilding. People want to continue their education. People want to receive

the healthcare that they have been deprived of for 15 months, right? And so the need is

so great. And even on Al Jazeera this morning, I'm watching aid trucks get in and people just

run for this aid and still it's not enough for the need. massive population of Gaza, right?

If everyone listening donated $10, $20 to like three gold funmies, that material support is

really what's going to make the difference in people's immediate lives right now. And more

than just, you know, being able to buy water, being able to buy, you know, maybe some flour

that doesn't have bugs in it. knowing that people still care, that people are still with you,

that people are still watching. This is what Palestinians and Palestine tell me all the

time, right? We want to know that people are with us. And so it's important to not let our

messages of support, our financial support, our activism wane. We have to keep it up because

the people of Gaza need it more. than ever right now, right? As they have that ability to breathe

and deal with everything they've been holding for the past 15 months, like we as the allied

global community, myself as a white Jewish woman, this is our responsibility to hold and support

the people that have risked so much to show the world what true smooth means, you know?

Fatima, do you want to add anything in terms of moments of resistance or just avenues that

you want to give a shout out to in the way that Anna did, folks doing good work that you can

encourage? Yeah. Everything Anna said, 100%. And also- Ditto. Yeah. And also, you know,

here in Edmonton, we've been doing a campaign called Epcor Delivers Genocide. And Epcor is

our water provider here in Edmonton. They're the only water provider in Edmonton. and they

have sourced these AMI meters from a company called the ARAD group that is on stolen land

in the West Bank. And so if people want to learn more about that, our team, incredible people,

not me specifically, I'm part of the team, but I don't do as much as they do, they're incredible.

So shout out to the team at Epcor Delivers Genocide. They have submitted a report to the UN with

Francesca Albanese and If you want to read the report, if you want to learn more about this,

it's Epco But basically every home in Edmonton is being forced to change into these AMI meters

that literally say Made in Israel right on them. It's a lot of stress for Palestinian families

who, you know, to have something that says Made in Israel in your home, and there's no other

option. And the only other option that they have given is American-made meters, but you

have to pay to opt out of these AMI meters. So basically Palestinian families are being

forced to pay to boycott an Israeli made meter. And as Anna said, $10 is making a difference

in Gaza right now. So if I'm to pay $25 a month to opt out of this like horrible failure of

sourcing these meters on EPCOR's part from... apartheid land and from, you know, stolen land

in the West Bank, it's these apartheid complicit companies and water apartheid complicit specifically.

In what world is that ethical? And it violates your own ethical standards. So please learn

more about that campaign because they're doing a lot of good work on it. And basically pay

attention. I think outside of the mutual aid, outside of continuing to disrupt, outside of

all of that, learn. as much as possible educate yourself, pay attention. Pay attention to who

is complicit in the death and genocide of Palestinian people and how we can push against that from

here. Because there's a lot of ways we can push against it from here. We can push against it

as we've seen over the past 15 months with disrupting arm shipments, with disrupting Indigo and their

complicity with Heather Raisman and the Hesseg Fund. We can disrupt it with trying to get

all of these charitable status, awful funds that are also causing more land grabs and more

ethnic cleansing in Palestine, defunded and not defunded, but at least losing their charitable

status and kind of making people understand what is happening through their own tax dollars.

You know, look at your financial institutions, look at Scotiabank and how they're still very

complicit, all the financial institutions are complicit, but some more than others. And then

take a look at the wins that we've achieved over as a movement over the last 15 months

with having Elbit take away 50% of their investments and keep pushing for those things. And I think

the more that we identify what needs to be pushed back against from here, from Turtle Island,

I think that's what we need to focus on, how we can make changes here that not only benefit

Palestinians in Palestine. that also push back against colonial structures everywhere. Just

making a note there, I'm gonna link in the show notes a few of those victories. So folks can

read about the indigo stores closing and some of the charitable status is already being removed

just to kind of give credence to your answer there. But I love your example, your local

example of Epcor delivers genocide. Because to me that says to all of the companies out

there, there is nobody off limits. If you thought folks were just gonna focus on arms manufacturers

and adjacent, you were wrong. Water meters is on the list. Books, bookstores are on the list.

It's endless. Like people are really doing the digging that's needed to eat away at the Zion

estate bit by bit. right? Company by company. And to hear those local examples too, it just,

it must inspire, it inspires me, it must inspire the audience too, to know that so many angles

are being explored. Like you said, legal, disruptive, educational, it's endless. It's endless. I

try to tell as many of these stories as possible, but I, I know I'm missing some too. Like, so

if people out there have any more of these stories of resistance, please always send them my way.

I would love to amplify. anything like that. So Fatima, for sure I'm gonna link people to

that and boost it as much as I can. As I do all the work that I see from you folks, I'm

so grateful for you taking time to unpack this with me. Quite often it's selfish. I have the

need to better understand something or sometimes even feel validated to hear you say it's okay

to celebrate. It's also okay to not know where we're going at the moment but to know that

we have to keep going and all of that. So... I very much appreciate that and the work that

you do on the ground. Thank you for joining us again. Let's wrap up this episode of Blueprints

of Disruption with more sounds of Palestinians returning to the north of Gaza and a reminder

that the work is still not done. Check out the show notes for ways that you can take action

right now. Until next time, keep disrupting.