PART 1

[00:00:00] Ross Mc: Hi there, and a very warm welcome to Season five, episode 19 of People Soup. It's Ross McIntosh here.

[00:00:07] Ross White: And my work, I'm very passionate about, um, supporting people to be the best version of themselves. if I have a purpose, it's about helping people to discover and develop their sense of purpose. I love that. I love seeing the lights come on behind a person's eyes as they really connect with what it is that's important to them.

[00:00:35] Ross White: And part of that work is about having that strong intention, but light attachment to developing that sense of purpose. People being able to carry themselves gently as they progress towards fulfilling that potential that they have. So I have a, a real interest in helping people to explore opportunities to find that optimal balance between sustaining their performance and also safeguarding their wellbeing.

[00:01:12] Ross Mc: I'd like to introduce you to Professor Ross White. Ross is the research Director of the Doctorate and Clinical Psychology Program at Queens University Belfast.

[00:01:22] Ross Mc: He's an expert in global mental health And has active research collaborations with the World Health Organization and the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees. He's also an author, and his books include acceptance and commitment approaches for athletes wellbeing and performance.

[00:01:39] Ross Mc: The Flexible Mind Above all, Ross aims to support humans in facing human challenges and live in alignment with their purpose. His consultancy is called Strive to Thrive,

[00:01:50] Ross Mc: which has a special interest in supporting the mental health and wellbeing of adults working in high performance environments, including elite level athletes.

[00:01:59] Ross Mc: and [00:02:00] incidentally, I'd highly recommend that you sign up for Ross's monthly newsletter called Five to Thrive. You can enter your email address at Strive to thrive.co.uk to receive it once a month. It's digestible for, provoking, and useful. the simple concept of the newsletter is to provide five minutes of reading and five tips to help you thrive.

[00:02:21] Ross Mc: In June's newsletter, he presents a thoughtful and useful reflection on purpose. It also recommends a film and a book about the secret life of trays.

[00:02:30] Ross Mc: Intrigued you should be. and remember, you can sign up via the link in the show notes or@strivetothrive.co uk. In this episode, you'll get to know Ross and a bit about his career history, including how he came across Act insights into his research and different contexts.

[00:02:47] Ross Mc: Psychological factors in sport and the fine line between dedication and obsession,

[00:02:52] Ross Mc: You'll also hear his song choice, which relates to his passion for supporting adults to be the best version of themselves, And how he once rescued The BBC Radio two DJ Sarah Cox from a Firework Hazard.

[00:03:03] Ross Mc: People Soup is an award-winning podcast where we share evidence-based behavioral science in a way that's practical, accessible, and fun to help you glow to work a bit more often.

[00:03:21] Ross Mc: You may well ask, where have I been? Well, a short answer is a bit overwhelmed by work, business administration, business travel, a terrible cold, and finding I had little time to devote to podcasting or my own self-care.

[00:03:38] Ross Mc: I'm pleased to report that I'm now achieving a more healthy balance, and I've started to get back on my bike, which regular p supers will know is a cornerstone for my mental wellbeing.

[00:03:50] Ross Mc: Let's just scoot over to the news desk Because reviews are in for our last episode, which was a mashup. It was me appearing as the guest on the shit Shower [00:04:00] and Self-Care podcast hosted by the brilliant Steve Jones. Joan Mayer on Facebook said, that's why you are so amazing.

[00:04:07] Ross Mc: Totally get what you are saying. My husband is black and every training course or meet and greet, I felt the need to slip it in just so no one made any comment that maybe made them feel uncomfortable in actual effect. Someone I work with now said only a few weeks ago, I was so shocked when I met your husband and he was black.

[00:04:27] Ross Mc: There was no malice, but the ignorance is unknown and still there. And Claire Stafford also on Facebook said, love this one. Loved your vulnerability. For me, it kept bringing up the Brene Brown quote. I'm here to get it right, not to be right. Big love. And finally, Ray Owen on Twitter said, I highly recommend this as a listen. It really meets the brief of the podcast as men talking about stuff they normally wouldn't get round to talking about. well, thank you so much to Joan, Claire, Ray, and everyone who listened, rated, shared it with a friend, reviewed it, talked about it to anyone. your support is really very much appreciated. It helps us reach more people with stuff that could be useful,

[00:05:12] Ross Mc: but for now, get a brew on and have a listen to part one of my chat with Ross White. Professor Ross White, welcome to People Soup.

[00:05:25] Ross White: great to be with you. Thanks for the invite.

[00:05:28] Ross Mc: I am delighted you are here now. As well as being my first professor on the podcast Ross, which is pretty damn exciting. You're also a top bloke, so my research department have been digging up a bit of detail about you, so I'd like to present that back to you. So you just sit back and reflect on this cuz they've come up with quite a lot.

[00:05:50] Ross White: All right.

[00:05:51] Ross Mc: So it says here in 2021, you are appointed the role of joint research director at the doctorate in clinical psychology program at Queens [00:06:00] University Belfast. You are an expert on global mental health and you have active research collaborations with the World Health Organization at the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees.

[00:06:10] Ross Mc: This research is exploring the efficacy of psychosocial interventions for reducing distress experienced by refugees, particularly in the context and or aftermath of humanitarian crises. How's that for a start? Is that

[00:06:24] Ross White: I am that man. Yes,

[00:06:26] Ross Mc: excellent? Good. Good to know. You know, like when you get on a Ryan Air flight and they say This is a flight going to Seve. If you are not going to Seve, please let us know. So it's good to know I've got the right fella. Some other research. You are the principal investigator on the community-based socio therapy, adapted for Refugees project, evaluating a psychosocial intervention for Congolese refugees living in Uganda and r.

[00:06:49] Ross Mc: You're also the UK principal investigator on a project. Co-producing forms of mental health and wellbeing support for indigenous Kokomo communities in post conflict Colombia.

[00:07:01] Ross White: That's right.

[00:07:03] Ross Mc: Turning the page, Ross is also an author and lead editor. One book is The Palgrave Handbook of Sociocultural Perspectives on Global Mental Health. And he also conducts research investigating processes involved in the linguistic and cultural adaptations of psychological therapies and assessment instruments for use with underserved populations.

[00:07:27] Ross Mc: Now that's particularly interesting to me cuz me and my mate, Paul Flexon, contractually known as Flexi Babes, we are working on a project with. Roscoe and Kamii in Uganda, early stages, but looking to how we can translate the, the kind of manual we designed for a Ugandan audience in the workplace.

[00:07:49] Ross White: wonderful. And it's great work, important work, but it's also fantastic to learn about the triangulation of Ross's, right? There's me, [00:08:00] Ross, you the Ross, and then there's Roscoe. Over in Uganda and um, yeah, just by the bye. Um, my, uh, family call me Roscoe and Roscoe's family in Uganda. Call him Ross. So we call ourselves the Ross Collective, you are not an honorary member of the Ross Collective.

[00:08:20] Ross Mc: Crikey. Well drop the mic, man, because I, I've, I've hit peak me. I think that's interesting cuz some of my friends, particularly those from uni, when I went first time in Dundee, they call me Roscoe.

[00:08:34] Ross White: Yep.

[00:08:35] Ross Mc: Who knew? Right? There's more, there's more from my research department. In 2020, you were recognized as one of the 10 people in the UK who are changing the face of Healthly.

[00:08:45] Ross Mc: Me.

[00:08:46] Ross White: Yeah.

[00:08:47] Ross Mc: I'm not sure how you fit all this in. That would probably be a question in a, in a moment, Ross. But, um, it says here you're also very interested in supporting mental health and wellbeing of adults working in high performance environments, including elite athlete. You are the lead author of a superb book called Acceptance and Commitment Approaches for Athlete's Wellbeing and Performance, A Flexible Mind, and that's published by Palgrave McMillan.

[00:09:12] Ross Mc: You are an association of Contextual Behavior Science peer Review, trainer of Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, and also a fellow of the A C B S. Now, that book I mentioned, I just wanted to give a shout out to the fellow authors who are, if I've got this right, Andrew Bethel, Lewis Chanoch, Stephen Lety and Victoria Pen Price,

[00:09:36] Ross White: Yep. That's right.

[00:09:38] Ross Mc: and The authors and the publishers are super generous because alongside the book there are seven free session guides to support the introduction of the flexible mind approach to athletes. But we'll come back to that a bit more in kind of the second part of our chat.

[00:09:53] Ross Mc: Ross,

[00:09:54] Ross White: Okay.

[00:09:55] Ross Mc: I'm just turning the page again. I don't think I've ever had this many notes. Ross, I want to [00:10:00] talk about Strive to Thrive as well because Ross leads, a team providing specialist clinical psychology support, including evidence-based psychological interventions such as cognitive behavioral therapy, acceptance and commitment therapy and compassion focused therapy.

[00:10:16] Ross Mc: And that's Strive to thrive.co uk and the two is the figure two. And there's also a brilliant, super useful newsletter called, Five to Thrive, which is five minutes of reading, five resources to help you thrive. And it's all focused on mental health and wellbeing support. And they've supported a range of organizations including Everton Football Club Academy, rugby Players Island and Athletics, Northern Ireland.

[00:10:42] Ross Mc: Ross was previously a senior lecturer at the University of Glasgow and a reader in clinical psychology at the University of Liverpool.

[00:10:49] Ross Mc: And we'll come back to Strive to Thrive as well in our chat because people Superstar podcast aimed at adults in organizations and elite sports people work in organizations.

[00:11:00] Ross Mc: That's their job. And I've got a second motivation as well. Obviously you're using the same behavioral science that I use with organizations, but also I think it's a real reputational convincer. For me to go into an organization, say a private sector organization or a health provider and say, this is used with elite sports people.

[00:11:19] Ross Mc: I think for particular demographics in the non-sports workplace, that can be a real convincer and engage people's curiosity,

[00:11:28] Ross White: Mm-hmm. . Well, that's good to know. And yeah, I can see the parallels and it's fantastic that that work can potentially help facilitate work in other sectors, as you've highlighted. So, yeah, that, that's great.

[00:11:42] Ross Mc: and I think people, people love to hear that. I mean, when I talk about, say, in a private sector or public sector, talk about my work with professional ballad dancers.

[00:11:51] Ross White: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:52] Ross Mc: them to be elite sports people.

[00:11:55] Ross Mc: and they're super curious about how we apply, and it just shows [00:12:00] the flexibility of things like acceptance and commitment therapy.

[00:12:04] Ross White: I think it's been great to see people recognize that that fear of high performance is broadening. I think, historically there was, if you like, too much focus perhaps on elite sport and initiatives like the High Performance Podcast that, um, Jay Comfrey and Dian Hughes present. They're really strong in emphasizing that people broadly live high performance lifestyles now, and it's fantastic to see, for example, the range of guests that you have on this podcast they have on their podcast, helping people to appreciate that there is learning that's gonna be transferrable across different contexts that is going to help benefit people here who are committed and passionate about the work that they do.

[00:12:51] Ross Mc: Couldn't agree more. And I've nearly reached the end of the notes from my, research department. There are a couple more things which may be slightly more controversial.

[00:13:00] Ross White: Oh, lurking in the long

[00:13:03] Ross Mc: Yeah, yeah. They're, they're forensic in their diligence. My, my research department. Now it says here you have a, a little known link to Kaiser Soze because at uni you were paid to appear in police lineups.

[00:13:21] Ross White: That is true. Your department had done very good work here. Yes. I was approached one day walking through Belfast, um, by a police officer, and of course you worry when that happens. And uh, I worried a bit more whenever you said to me, do you want to earn some quick money? Um, I didn't respond to that when a policeman asks yet.

[00:13:45] Ross White: and it transpired that they needed, uh, people to appear in police lineups alongside the suspect. So I must have one of those faces, Ross, that lends itself well to that type of work. Yeah.

[00:13:57] Ross Mc: Hmm. Well, I think it's, it's the face and [00:14:00] the voice. Cause I'm curious, Did you ever have to read out a line such as, and don't worry, Ross, I'm gonna bleep this out, but, um, hand me the keys. You fucking cocksucker. Did you ever have to read any lines out like that?

[00:14:12] Ross White: No, that's much too TM for Belfast. Um, no, fortunately it was, uh, without voice. Yeah, you had to remain silent throughout. So, um, yeah, it would've been very amusing had we had the opportunity. But no

[00:14:28] Ross Mc: ah, opportunity missed. And there's one more thing which involves a heroic action on your part. You were, well, let's say you saved radio two DJ Sarah Cox from a pyrotechnic incident one New Year's Eve. You are working at a nightclub in Belfast, and this is when her then husband John Carter was DJing. She was basically stood right over a pyrotech.

[00:14:52] Ross Mc: I dunno what you call it, A pyrotechnic appliance, uh, thing. and you in an act of selfless heroism, pulled her back from it in the nick of time at the expense of your left eyebrow. Now, as I look carefully at your there, now, it appears to be recovered

[00:15:10] Ross White: Yes, that is true. The countdown was halfway through. We were at 5, 4 3 and Sarah Cox was stood right over this firework. So I had to run over, pull her back from the firework, and as I did so the firework went off and sended my left eyebrow, which did fortunately go back. so Sarah, if you're listening, you owe me.

[00:15:38] Ross White: if you're ever in Belfast, I will accept the coffee. Um, so yeah, eyebrow singed. Sarah received coffee owed, I think.

[00:15:50] Ross Mc: you heard it here, Coxy. Now no. Get on it. And I think a coffee and possibly a dedication of a song choice, but we'll, we'll come onto that a bit later.[00:16:00]

[00:16:00] Ross White: Nice.

[00:16:01] Ross Mc: Yeah, I think that would be the least you could do and maybe some, I don't think you need any sort of, I dunno what it's called, threading. I was getting my hair cut the other day, and I'm at that age now when they suddenly start

[00:16:12] Ross White: Oh,

[00:16:13] Ross Mc: the scissors around your eyebrows.

[00:16:14] Ross Mc: And I'm like, ah, geez, man. I'm like sort of Dennis Healy eyebrows,

[00:16:19] Ross White: I haven't paid for a haircut in about 27 years. I calculated how much money I've, I've probably saved as a consequence of that, and it runs into the thousands. And so those are folly challenged out there. It's not all bad news.

[00:16:36] Ross Mc: Wow. There you go. We can always look at things from different perspectives.

[00:16:41] Ross White: Nice. Good. Like that.

[00:16:43] Ross Mc: Now. Now Ross, I've, I've shared with you what my research department came up with, but I'd love it if you just unpack that a bit. Talk to us a bit about your career trajectory. Maybe some significant moments along the way that felt like, this is a big, pivotal moment.

[00:17:00] Ross White: grit. But happy to. So I grew up in Northern Ireland, which is a beautiful place, but um, there were some darker moments growing up. people might be aware of the troubles that happened here and growing up in what was a divided society where you had two communities, the unionist community and the nationalist community who were to all intents and purposes, fairly segregated, particularly around things like education, educated in different schools.

[00:17:32] Ross White: And, it was really interesting that my first democratic act, my first vote was the Good Friday agreement. And being able to express my approval for that agreement, which has done much to bring peace to Northern Ireland and to help communities come together. And it's, um, really interesting to have grown up in Northern Ireland, but then actually to have moved [00:18:00] away.

[00:18:00] Ross White: For 15 years and to come back and live here again and work here again. And I'm very proud of our We Country and the Island of Ireland more broadly. And it's great to come back and give something back to society here. I was educated, at Queens University Belfast. I did my psychology undergraduate degree there. And, uh, a PhD in psychology, uh, working to understand some of the challenges that people with complex mental health problems experience. There's, uh, an umbrella term psychosis that's used to capture, quite, um, difficult challenges, signs and symptoms that people experience, including quite distressing experiences like hearing voices that other people might not hear, and having, um, strongly held beliefs that, uh, really start to impact on people's wellbeing. So it was really interesting during my PhD to learn more about what factors influence those experiences, but I was really conscious that I wasn't given anything back to the participants I was working with. And at that point in time, I committed to training to be a clinical psychologist and that would afford me an opportunity to give back and to help support the mental health needs of, people.

[00:19:22] Ross White: And I got onto the program at the University of Glasgow in 2004 and relocated to Glasgow on the west coast of Scotland, which was a fantastic place to work and to train and to meet people and establish networks. And I subsequently stayed in Scotland for 12 years. I worked, for the nhs. In an early intervention service for people with psychosis after I qualified and then got an opportunity to go back to the University of Glasgow as a clinical research fellow, [00:20:00] uh, which is an opportunity really to progress your research career.

[00:20:06] A wonderful journey[00:20:06] Marker

[00:20:06] Ross White: But I was able to focus on a clinical topic, and I was really interested at that stage in how, what are called third wave psychological interventions. Things like mindfulness, compassion focus therapy, acceptance and commitment therapy, how well they would lend themselves to supporting people experiencing complex mental health difficulties.

[00:20:34] Ross White: And in 2009, I had the opportunity to go to Enschede in Holland to the World Conference of the Association of Contextual Behavioral Science. To learn more about acceptance and commitment therapy, because that's what my project was gonna focus on, developing and evaluating an ACT intervention for people with psychosis.

[00:21:00] Ross White: So it was at that point that I first got exposed to these great trainers, internationally renowned trainers, people like Stephen Hayes at, uh, some of the workshops that, um, I attended. And I never looked back. I just really connected with the approach. I could understand it, it made sense to me, and it just meant that I could be much more authentic and how that I practiced with the people that I was supporting. So that. The start of a, a wonderful journey. A journey that continues to this day, and one that we're obviously talking more about today too. So yeah, Glasgow, I continued to work there and I had the opportunity to also develop a master's program on global mental health, which is concerned with addressing inequities [00:22:00] in the provision of mental health support across the globe.

[00:22:03] Ross White: We talk about postcode, lotteries and countries like the uk where if you live in an urban setting, services might be more available than they would be in a rural setting. So there are these discrepancies in service provision, well that also multiplies up whenever you look at the world.

[00:22:22] Global Mental Health

[00:22:22] Ross White: So across the globe you have, countries where the economy isn't strong and the prioritization of mental health difficulties.

[00:22:31] Ross White: isn't particularly high. So the money invested in the development and delivery of services for mental health is considerably lower than it would be in a country like the US or the UK or, or France or Spain. So yeah, I was able to bring some of that knowledge out acquired at university where I also studied anthropology modules in addition to my psychology.

[00:22:56] Ross White: So global mental health was this meeting space between culture and health and mental health and trying to find ways of developing accessible, scalable, but meaningful forms of support, forms of support that people were going to, to access. And the challenge with that is trying to ensure that we develop and deliver those forms of support using frames of reference that are meaningful and relevant to the populations that they serve.

[00:23:28] Ross White: So global mental health was a great topic area, and in time I was able to bring my interest in contextual behavioral science together with global mental health. And that's where those projects that you mentioned, collaborations with the World Health Organization and the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees came from.

[00:23:53] Ross White: And we were able to evaluate a self-help based form of act called Self-Help [00:24:00] Plus for use with refugees, both in Sub-Saharan Africa, but also in the eu. And in 2016 then I was able to move down to the University of Liverpool cuz there were opportunities to progress that global mental health work in collaboration with colleagues at the University of Liverpool.

[00:24:20] Other area of passion

[00:24:20] Ross White: And I worked there for five years and it was in Liverpool that I had that opportunity to progress that other area of passion for me, my interest in sport and high performance working, for example, with the Everton Football Club Academy and providing mental health support, wellbeing support to some of the young footballers that they were working with there.

[00:24:46] Ross White: yeah, that's been great to consolidate that work and to develop Strive to Thrive as a clinical psychology consultancy firm that are committed to helping support. , the mental health and wellbeing needs of high performance individuals, but also the general population more broadly. so in 2021, I had the opportunity then to come home.

[00:25:10] Ross White: And I think for a number of years I had realized that my heart remained back in Northern Ireland. And, um, it was great to have the opportunity to go to Queens University Belfast as a part of the alumni to return, uh, a poacher turned gamekeeper from being the student to being a staff member. so it feels like things have come a little full circle with that regard.

[00:25:43] Ross White: so that's a bit of a, a rapid rundown of, of my career to date. And I've talked quite a lot, so I'll, I'll let you come in at that this stage.

[00:25:53] Ross Mc: Thank you so much, Ross. It just, it's helped slot everything into place and the, the movement between those [00:26:00] different institutions and. If I may, could I just take you back to the beginning? Why psychology?

[00:26:05] Ross White: I think, in my latter years in high school at Wallace High School in Lisburn, I had been interested in doing medicine and I was involved in a road traffic accident that was a passenger in the back of a car that overturned on a dual carriageway. And fortunately, nobody was seriously injured. But that was in the year before my A levels, and I think it really did knock me for six in terms of my sense of, uh, where I was in life and what was important.

[00:26:42] Ross White: What mattered, what direction I wanted to, to move forward in. And I realized that medicine wasn't necessarily the option that I wanted to pursue. and I looked around for other options at that stage and we had a fantastic biology teacher, Mrs. Johnson, and she had done psychology at university as part of her degree program, and she talked to us about psychology and it just fascinated me to gain an insight into how people think, how they behave, and to work at that level to try to help support people who may be struggling with their thoughts, with their emotions, with their behaviors.

[00:27:26] Ross White: So I learned a bit more about psychology at that point, and I was pleased to get on to the psychology undergraduate degree at Queens University Belfast then.

[00:27:36] Ross Mc: Hmm hmm. Thank you. And I see you're really. Strong value shining through from you, making a difference and a value, perhaps. I'm just, my hypotheses is, is making a difference, equality and, and equity around the, the global mental health work. And I also see a value of just tenacity cuz we cannot underestimate that tenacity required to [00:28:00] get things moving in those areas.

[00:28:02] Ross Mc: what keeps you going to, to move towards that?

[00:28:05] Ross White: Yeah, I've, I've always been tenacious in that way. Um, something might say stubborn but when I, I set my mind to something, I'm, I'm really committed to seeing it through. that's an integrity piece, you know, about, you know, standing by your word and if you're saying that you're gonna do something, do it.

[00:28:27] Ross White: I've been influenced, I think, by family members around that. I've had some great influences in my life that have, helped to see the benefit that can bring for others and high, it helps you feel at ease with yourself as well. so yeah, tenacity, and a commitment to, to seeing things through.

[00:28:46] Ross White: But with that comes a recognition that Teamworking is so, so important, and I look back at some of those initiatives that we've, we've touched on. and I recognize that that work has really relied on so many individuals putting their shoulders to the wheel and sharing some of the responsibility. and I'm very fortunate to have collaborated with many really, really committed and brilliant people.

[00:29:16] Ross White: And I think specifically I want to highlight work that it did with an organization called Commit And ACT. And they were involved and still are involved in supporting the training of non-specialists in Sierra Leone to help people with their mental health and wellbeing. And, um, Beate Ebert is a German clinical psychologist who in collaboration with Hannah Bockarie a very committed and talented woman from Sierra Leone.

[00:29:49] Ross White: set up, commit an act, and, they enrolled, other people and called for support and help. And I went over, initially in, in 2011 [00:30:00] to help with those training initiatives. And I look at the arc, the journey of that work, and if you ask anybody involved in committing act, Hannah Biatta and myself, colleagues like Ian May, Karina Stewart.

[00:30:17] Ross White: Were there times where you could have walked away from that? Absolutely. Were there times when everyth things got tough and tense? Were people now ne didn't necessarily see things the same way? Absolutely. And I think a younger version of me would have at points stepped away from that because it was too confronting, too challenging.

[00:30:36] Ross White: And I'm able to see that actually there was learning in that and being able to see that through, to work through those differences with the bigger em in mind. being value guided in how we operated with each other, but staying true to those commitments and those goals that we set for the organization.

[00:30:56] Ross White: So experience, I think, has helped to, uh, hone and develop some of that tenacity, but also to bring through flexibility in how I work and high interact with others. So, yeah, tenacity, but flexibility too.

[00:31:15] Ross Mc: and yeah, I am. Uh, it's, it's commit and act.

[00:31:18] Ross White: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:20]

[00:31:20] Ross White: I would say, you know, the charity has done enormous work, and it is a charity and it does rely on donations. so yes, if people are, are motivated to do so, do check out the webpage. Do consider supporting the work that they do. for example, commit an act run, uh, shelters for, for girls who are subject to physical, emotional, and sexual abuse.

[00:31:45] Ross White: In Sierra Leone, unfortunately levels are particularly high, and the support isn't necessarily available. So commit an actor doing very important work on that front.

[00:31:57] Ross Mc: Folks, I'm just botting in to say there's more [00:32:00] news at the end of this episode. if you do, check out, commit and act.org and read about their incredible work, and you're able to make a financial contribution.

[00:32:08] Ross Mc: I'll match it to a maximum total value of 100 Euros. Now back to the chat.

[00:32:14] SPORTS = poss spoons

[00:32:14] Ross Mc: And I'm, I'm fascinated to hear you talk about, your work in, in sports.

[00:32:25] Ross Mc: did that sort of start to align with your psychological interest?

[00:32:31] Ross White: Yeah. Thanks for that question. Uh, when I was younger, I was very committed to sport. I played a variety at different sports, football, rugby when I went to Queens University, rowing, and also, uh, jiu-jitsu. So interested in martial arts as well. And I would get in my way an awful lot. Don't get me wrong, I wasn't necessarily blessed with, uh, huge amounts of talent. but that tenacious side of me would see me work at stuff up until a point. Um, my psychology at that stage wasn't great. I wanted to be excellent that something before I was giving my myself a chance to be good at it. Um, there's still a a seven iron golf club of my mother's in a row of fur trees on the fourth three of Lukin Golf Club.

[00:33:31] Ross White: Whenever I, as a ju juvenile member, uh, was so hotheaded and so frustrated by not being able to hit the ball well, I launched the golf club into the fir trees. Could I find it? No. And the impending sense of doom about having to return home and report the loss of the said club to my mother, uh, wasn't particularly appealing.

[00:33:56] Ross White: So yeah, I could get very frustrated. I [00:34:00] could see that my confidence would be impacted, too easily, perhaps, that sense of, of not being good enough. So I recognize that psychology had a huge role to play in sport and, um, it's been an interest of mine for a long, long time.

[00:34:19] Poss intro clip

[00:34:19] Ross White: That intersection between the interest I have in sport, but also my professional work around, the psychology and clinical psychology and it's work that I've been developing really since 2015.

[00:34:31] Ross White: that work started when I was in Glasgow, and as I said, I developed it further in Liverpool and made those links with other organizations, for example, Everton Football Club at that time. So coming back to Northern Ireland, it's been great to continue that work and. To provide support to rugby players, tennis players, athletes, Paralympic athletes as well.

[00:34:54] Ross White: so people are often curious about this interest that I have in mental health support and humanitarian contexts and then in high performance environments. And, um, there are clear differences. let me be very, explicit about that. I recognize that those are, very different contexts, but they are humans doing human things, experiencing human challenges.

[00:35:20] Ross White: In both of those contexts, people are subject to stressors. The stressors may differ, but the impact that those stressors have on people's ability to cope and their ability to live full and meaningful lives, are similar. So, I certainly take a lot of learning from both of those different contexts and I can see a lot of transferrable skills between them as well, which is something we touched on, during the introduction to the, um, forecast today.

[00:35:50] Ross Mc: Yeah, I, I, I absolutely get those, what people might consider to be radically different areas. They are still humans in different contexts, and it helps us in each context [00:36:00] by exposing ourselves to those different contexts. I, I get quite giddy working with professional ballet dancers and ballet companies in the uk cuz that's a totally.

[00:36:09] Ross Mc: Foreign context to me. I kind of get a bit sort of Billy Elliot ish, imagining what could have been, but it's really observing that their processes and the context in which they're operating and the, demands of a, career like that, that can be quite short, as with some athletes. And I think it's changing a lot, but it feels like traditionally a lot of the support of it was in terms of physical health.

[00:36:36] Ross Mc: We, we need to get you that injury fixed so we can get you back on stage. Not so much on the, the mental health support and the mental wellbeing, which is why I think in that work with ballet dancers, there's such a thirst for how can you give me skills and perhaps tools or perspectives that can support me.

[00:36:54] Ross White: I think you're, you're spot on. I think people's. Ability to recognize the importance of psychological factors on performance is growing.

[00:37:08] Proportion of performance on psychological factors

[00:37:08] Ross White: You know, if you were to say to an athlete or to a coach, what proportion of your performance would you attribute to psychological factors? You know, the mind, they'll recognize that.

[00:37:21] Ross White: Yeah. Uh, a good proportion, right? It could range from anything. And this is anecdotal, uh, arbitrary numbers, shall we say, but I think it serves the point of illustrating it. They might say something between 25% of my performances attributed to my psychology, and it could be as high as 75%. Right? So substantial proportions people might, uh, recognize, could be attributed to their psychology.

[00:37:49] Ross White: If you then ask, well, how much time. Do you set aside specifically for preparing yourself psychologically for your performance? I would say [00:38:00] that be a fair degree of discrepancy between those two proportions so people can see that, it is a factor, it's an important factor, particularly in a world of marginal gains.

[00:38:12] Ross White: You know, I think about those multiple tweaks across a range of different factors and how they can add up to quite a substantial change in performance. yeah, people can recognize that, it's important, but whether or not they have no high necessarily to know what they would do to prepare. Or whether or not there's clarity in terms of, who they can seek support from and the advice that they can access.

[00:38:39] Ross White: It can be issues around funding, for example, and access to practitioners. So physical health might be prioritized. physio support, nutritional support. Of course, there's tactical and technical support from coaches, so it's easy for other things that are less familiar to fall down the list of priorities.

[00:39:02] Ross White: And I think psychological flexibility as a concept in, in sport is, is important for the reasons that you've outlined. If you think about physical flex,

[00:39:16] Ross Mc: mm.

[00:39:17] Ross White: So people absolutely recognize as important to give you that, supple ability to be malleable and to protect against injury, to have greater range of movement for your sport.

[00:39:32] Ross White: People get physical flexibility as being important. So when you talk about psychological concepts such as psychological flexibility and that nimbleness and that ability to have a broad repertoire of potential ways of responding to difficult thoughts, emotions that show up, people get that right. They can understand that and.

[00:39:55] Ross White: For me, I think it's been great to see sports psychology [00:40:00] recognized. So increasingly there's recognition that sports psychologists have an important role to play in high performance and there's maybe not enough funding still to support the paid involvement of practitioners. So that's something that teams and organizations need to look to prioritize.

[00:40:19] It's a fine line

[00:40:19] Ross White: But now we're starting to see growing recognition of mental health experts in high performance environments. And yeah, I'm very passionate about, people don't need to sacrifice their wellbeing in order to excel with their performance, cuz we could all work incredibly hard and be very dedicated and focused on improving our performance.

[00:40:43] Ross White: It's a fine line sometimes between dedication and obsession. It's a fine line between wanting to excel and being perfectionistic. It's um, a fine line between being self-reflective and self-critical, and all of that can wear on a person and eventually there is a cost attached to that commitment around performance.

[00:41:09] Ross Mc: I just couldn't agree more. I, I think just reflecting, uh, one of my colleagues I work with, with the, ballet work, she's a psychology, an organizational psychologist now, Jamie Tapper, but she's a former principal in the Royal Ballet, and she gives me so many insights and revelations really, and talks about her mind.

[00:41:31] Ross Mc: Used to, she, she would give her mind the nickname when she was a professional dancer of the strict governors or the drill sergeant, just getting up, doing a warmup, performing, performing, performing. Which helped her, frankly, gets to the role of principle in the Royal Ballet in a highly competitive environment, so that in one hand that served her.

[00:41:53] Ross White: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:54] Ross Mc: to reach that part, but on other hand, it, it caused damage.

[00:41:57] Ross White: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:59] Ross Mc: And now she can [00:42:00] notice that same, Jamie won't mind me talking about this, but she can see that same drill sergeant showing up in other areas of life in a really unhelpful way.

[00:42:09] Ross White: Yeah. I think those are great insights and people will be able to relate to those as well.

[00:42:17] I'm very passionate - poss intro clip

[00:42:17] Ross White: And my work, I'm very passionate about, um, supporting people to be the best version of themselves. if I have a purpose, it's about helping people to discover and develop their sense of purpose. I love that. I love seeing the lights come on behind a person's eyes as they really connect with what it is that's important to them.

[00:42:46] Ross White: And part of that work is about having that strong intention, but light attachment to developing that sense of purpose. People being able to carry themselves gently as they progress towards fulfilling that potential that they have. So I have a, a real interest in helping people to explore opportunities to find that optimal balance between sustaining their performance and also safeguarding their wellbeing.

[00:43:23] Ross White: so that we don't have situations where people place so much emphasis on excelling, that they end up threatening their wellbeing, that people don't put so much effort on standing out from the crowd that they end up losing themselves and a sense of what truly matters to them. I don't think it needs to be that way, and I think psychological flexibility creates a great platform for helping people to find that optimal balance so that they can carry themselves gently as they are committed [00:44:00] to realizing the ambitions that they have.

[00:44:03] Ross Mc: Yeah. Abs absolutely agree. It's that it's that balance and always coming back to the contents and the, the workability, which is a word that that's used quite a lot in your. In your book and Ross, just thinking about your own flexibility and your tenaciousness too, I'm really curious about how you fit everything in.

[00:44:23] Ross Mc: is there some sort of magical system you use to, to get shit done? Or is it something that's evolved for you?

[00:44:31] Ross White: certainly has evolved. I recognize in the past that there was a doggedness that wasn't serving me. So I think some of this work that I bring to supporting clients and working with is derived from lived experience. I had a bit of a mini meltdown around 2017 in Seville, the city that you know well, it was at the World Conference of the A C B S and I was just burnt out. I was traveling an awful lot at that stage with the global mental health related work, which is fantastic. And I'm blessed to have had those opportunities to be supported, in the work that I was doing in different countries. But it was taken its toll and I have to acknowledge and recognize that I am a workaholic in recovery, and I know where some of that has come from in terms of my sense of self and my sense of self-worth whenever I was younger and perhaps being driven to demonstrate.

[00:45:41] Ross White: in these very kind of obvious and clear ways that I was being productive, that I was producing the goods. I was quite, outcome focused in that way and through my understanding of psychological flexibility and being able to learn [00:46:00] more about myself, I'm benefiting from therapy that I've received and I'm very open and honest about the difference that has made to me in my life.

[00:46:12] Ross White: So sometimes the helpers need help and that was, uh, a massive experience and a very fundamental thing for me. So yes, being able to recognize my own inner drill sergeant,

[00:46:27] Ross Mc: Mm.

[00:46:28] Ross White: giving the drill sergeant a bit of a reboot and. Seeing, taking that noticer perspective and noticing, hi, I can get sucked into that kind of, relentless urge to do more and to see that actually that doesn't add up to being more productive, if anything that takes away from it.

[00:46:48] Ross White: So, yeah, I'm, and I'm much better place around that and I've got some good people around me as well that help support me with that. so sometimes it, it's not the case that, more and more, more sometimes less is more. And I think that's been a really rich learning point for me and much more focused on my processes.

[00:47:10] Ross Mc: Mm,

[00:47:10] Ross White: And, uh, trying to be efficient and effective, but taking time to reset as well. So looking after myself, exercise, but also rest, spending time with, with folk that, um, I, I like and, um, yeah, benefiting from the love and support of my wife Susie as well, which is, is great.

[00:47:33] Ross Mc: fabulous. Thank you for taking us through that and being, being so open. I think for people to hear that is, is really tremendous role modeling,

[00:47:42] Ross White: yeah, I, I think I've benefited from seeing the learning from the courage and vulnerability of others in, in their sharing. and that sense of shared humanity that comes whenever, uh, you hear people sharing so openly. And I think [00:48:00] that's been a bit of a sea change in, in sport as well. Right.

[00:48:03] Ross White: Whenever you see Simone Biles, Naomi Osaka, Serena Williams, Tyson Fury, talking to frankly and openly about the challenges that they have experienced in being fantastic role models around, um, mental health and wellbeing in sport. So I do hope that that helps to encourage others to do the same.

[00:48:28] Ross Mc: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:48:31] SPOONS - Song

[00:48:31] Ross Mc: - Now, Ross, I want to ask you a question that I ask all my guests, which is, for a song choice that would announce your arrival in a room, whether it's a real room or a virtual room, or your lounge or your local supermarket. Now what, what would your, what would your choice be?

[00:48:46] Ross White: It would be Snow Patrol Life on Earth. the album version which has the, the, the word explicit in brackets after the song title. Um, cuz there's uh, a few rude words in there. And, uh, I think that serves to emphasize some of the key messages, um, in the song. So yeah, I grew up in Northern Ireland at the same time that Gary Light Body, that lead singer of Snow Patrol did, we're the same age actually, we're from the same county County Down.

[00:49:23] Ross White: I'm at one end of it and he's at the other, I don't know him personally. Some of my mates were actually, at Dundee University at the same time that he was and had some, uh, contact with them. And they speak very highly of him. And from what I've seen of him and his band mates, they seem, um, very grinded and, and good guys.

[00:49:45] Ross White: But that song is an appeal for simplicity, right? It's just life on earth. And sometimes we do complicate things. We do get in our own ways. And I think that, um, song does a [00:50:00] great job at, really emphasizing that. there's an Irish man, much, much wiser than me who once said, the best of us are geniuses of compression. right? Geniuses of compression. What did he mean by that? Well, it's about I think being able to, uh, take quite complex ideas and explain them in simple terms. And I think that song, uh, is an appeal to, to that as well. And it's something that I'm very committed to. So you mentioned about the Five to Thrive Newsletter and these five resources, a quote, a concept, a film recommendation, a book recommendation, and then an invitation to the reader is focused on trying to take some of these complex ideas and really strip them back into simple terms.

[00:51:02] Ross White: And I'm really committed to helping members of the public understand some of these psychological concepts that can make a real difference in their own lives. That are relevant to performance settings, but also relevant to wellbeing so that they can learn about them and have important take home messages.

[00:51:20] Ross White: so yeah. Uh, if people ask me what time it is, it's always five to thrive.

[00:51:27] Ross Mc: Nice. Wow. That's it, part one in the bag. Thanks so much to Ross for being so open and for all his research and drive supporting adults to be the best version of themselves in a whole variety of contexts. Also, I'm very grateful to Ross for his patience and waiting for me to publish this episode.

[00:51:52] Ross Mc: Next time it's part two of our chat where we talk more about Ross's work with athletes, his book Acceptance and [00:52:00] Commitment Approaches for Athletes Wellbeing and Performance, that Flexible Mind, and I've got two key recommendations.

[00:52:07] Ross Mc: One is to subscribe to Ross's monthly newsletter. Five to Thrive. It's digestible, thought-provoking, and super useful.

[00:52:15] Ross Mc: The second recommendation is to check out, commit and Act and their work in Sierra Leone. If it's possible for you, please consider supporting, commit and Act either through donating your time, energy, or expertise, or through a financial contribution. You'll find the links in the show notes and if you do make a financial contribution, Please do let me know as I'll match each of your donations up to a maximum total value of 100 Euros.

[00:52:41] We'd love to get your reviews. So please let us know what you think on the socials or drop me an email or a voice note on WhatsApp.

[00:52:48] Ross: If you like this episode of the podcast, please, could you do three things? Number one, share it with one other person. Number two, subscribe to the podcast and give us a five star review. Whatever platform you're on, and particularly if you're on Apple Podcasts, the Apple charts are really important in the podcast industry.

[00:53:07] Ross: And number three, share the heck out of it on the socials. This will all help us reach more people with stuff that could be. I'd love to hear from you and you can get in touch at people soup dot pod gmail.com. On Twitter, we are at People Soup Pod on Instagram at People dot Soup.

[00:53:23] Ross: And on Facebook we are at People Soup Pod. thanks to Andy Klan for his Spoon Magic. And Alex Engelberg for his vocal. Most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves. Peace supers and bye for now.

[00:53:37] Ross Mc: people often say that they, they appreciate my voice. They find it quite relaxing, but hell man. Are you, are you after my crown? I think my crown has just fallen off.

[00:53:49] Ross White: you do have a great voice. I've, uh, listened to the podcast and, um, yeah, you've got, uh, the voice for it.

[00:53:56] Ross Mc: Well, man, back at you. I think maybe between us we could [00:54:00] get some voice over work and conquer the world, but, um, there's a little side hustle, but I think we've

[00:54:05] Ross White: Yeah. Why not?