So today my very good friend Julie, the psychologist, is stepping

outside of her comfort zone 'cause we know this is where all the magic

happens and we are free styling.

All the other episodes that we've done with Julie have been quite

targeted and there's been a topic that's been quite specific and, uh.

Jumping in the deep end, Julie, not so much.

So I think this is gonna be a really interesting topic because every time that

I personally talk to Julie outside of this, uh, platform there are always really

meaningful conversations that we have.

So I'm kind of hoping that it sort of flows on and, and is the same here.

It's interesting 'cause when we were discussing what we were gonna do

today, and as you mentioned, I normally like to be quite well prepared, but

I was reflecting on the fact that I. Like a lot of the times I'm working

with clients and asking them to do things that are outside of their

familiar zone or their comfort zone in order to sort of facilitate growth.

So I often like to experiment on myself and go, well, if I'm asking these guys

to do some stuff, you know, I sure as should, should do it myself, shouldn't I?

So.

But this kind of also contradicts one of our previous episodes

where we talked about boundaries and you said, hold your boundary.

So where do we start and stop with the boundary?

That's a really good one.

So a boundary is around what I will and won't do and what I will and won't accept.

So I'm in charge of deciding what I will and won't do and

what I will and won't accept.

So in this case, we've had a discussion and I have decided to

say this is something that I'd like to try and I'd, I'd like to accept.

So it's with, uh, like I can't think of a way to put it like my own full consent.

Like there's being challenged and then there's being like

Yeah.

to do something that you don't feel comfortable with.

that's a really great way to put it.

So this for me is quite a challenge.

'cause as you.

Know me, I like to be pretty well prepared.

And even though I probably already know the information, I like to make sure

that it's all there, ready to grasp.

So, but this is important.

I often find that the best parts of the presentations that I give

when I do, I do a lot of public speaking and presentations., the

magic actually happens when people actually start to ask questions.

So the, the presentation is the part that's interesting, but then it's when

people sort of actually ask questions.

Yeah.

So that's say that and probably, , weigh in on this.

, I MCed an event the other day for Sustainable Builders Alliance where we

were celebrating the partnership between Bowens and Sustainable Builders Alliance

And I think I'm a pretty good public speaker, but there were certain things

that I needed to talk about in that presentation where it was quite scripted

and I'm not really a scripted person.

And it was interesting.

I actually felt a little bit nervous.

to make sure that I was kinda ticking off all these things.

E same.

with that too.

Yeah, it was interesting just to, just to kind of recognize when it was

scripted, I felt uncomfortable and

Public speaking's a weird one because people are going to listen

to you speak, so you are the expert.

So like they generally actually want to hear you.

So there's this whole idea that with public speaking, that when you get up

there, like you get anxiety and you sweaty palms, uh, and you're nervous, but really

like they, people want to hear you speak.

it's interesting, isn't it?

I think there's also the element of, I'm fine on, on the fly, but

a lot of my public speaking is facilitating learning for courses

or I've done a lot of lecturing.

So there's been a real, it's been a really important purpose

of imparting information.

And so I'm sort of trying to get my head out of that old kind of way of thinking

in terms of a lot of the stuff that I do and go, let's just have a chat.

So.

I think, I think the, the, the major difference there, Julie, is that,

you know, I think when you are asked.

Your own opinion is different to when you're being asked to present on facts

Is psychology hard to be opinionated?

Like obviously Hamish and I can be opinionated.

In the way that we build and the better methods to build . Does it

work like that with psychology?

Yeah, that's a spectacular question because in therapy

um, my opinion doesn't matter.

So let's say that somebody's got this really difficult choice

to make, or they're grappling with you know, a life challenge.

I. My opinion on what I might do or how I might approach it is, is it

really needs to stay out of the room.

' cause

And why is that?

Because I have, I'm a completely different human and my hopes, my dreams, my views,

my background is completely different to the person sitting across from me.

And so it's actually really important that what I do is help facilitate that

person making the choices for themselves.

And it's interesting, isn't it?

So if I give a really good example, say if I'm working with somebody with

a substance abuse situation, yeah.

So my opinion is, dude, get off the meth.

You know, that's my opinion.

They've probably had that thought before, obviously, but their goal

might be to work toward social use for example, which in my opinion is still

very dangerous, potentially harmful.

Absolutely.

But that's where they wanna head.

And so I have to, it, it's quite challenging, frankly.

I have to sort of step outside and help them uncover where they

wanna head and their own goals.

But that, that example, uh, is kind of a good one because to me this seems

like there is a very black and white answer of what should be the outcome.

So why can't you be like, you need to get off meth.

Meth is no good.

, having social use is still no good.

Like, why can't you put that opinion out?

Yeah.

So Matt, have you ever had anyone sort of try and tell you what to do?

Yeah.

Ish all the time.

You know what?

I like to think that I try and guide Matt

in

met my wife?

Nah, that's a slight dig at her.

Hope this is a test to see if she's listening.

'cause if she doesn't listen, she'll never bring it up.

I'm certainly not gonna use Tom as an example 'cause I know that

he listens to all the episodes.

He loves podcast.

I'm asking a very loaded question here, because again, yeah.

No one likes to be told what to do and it's a really hard, space to

navigate and you kind of need to like, it's almost like dangling that little

carrot to get that next little bit.

that sort of raises the topic of extrinsic versus intrinsic motivation.

And so intrinsic motivation is where it comes from within.

So you change or you do something because you are internally motivated to do it.

it's different sort of, you know, when you're at work, you get.

Given tasks and told what to do per se.

But when we are talking about change for people and where they wanna head, if it's

just simply somebody externally saying, you need to do this it tends not to stick.

They might change for a little bit.

So.

We have to play the long game.

We have to play the long game of helping them get to where they wanna go.

Helping them build confidence in their capacity to be able to change.

And then there's a thing that's really interesting called motivational

interviewing, which we use around, especially around substance use.

Helping them find their own intrinsic reasons for change.

If I impose my reasons for change on them, they're not gonna be the same.

'cause your reasons for change might be, I wanna be a better dad now I

won't have that reason 'cause I'm not a dad and I'm not going to be a dad.

Is that so that it needs to come from within?

And it's hard, Matt, it's very hard to sit there watching

somebody doing something that is objectively quite harmful for them.

And that's a skill that, you know, we really have to practice.

It's not easy.

Yeah.

Think that was a question.

Experiences doubt.

You know, trades and, and builders have, in my experience, and I don't

know, Julie, you are the expert here.

People get to a point where they want to listen.

Mm.

And I'll explain that probably in my personal experience when I was,

I guess coming up and I was trying to prove myself and, you know, I

was trying to establish myself.

I was right all the fucking time.

There.

There came a point in my life where I'm like, oh, hang on, you know?

Well, I actually don't know the answer to this.

And I, and I remember, I've been, Glen, if you're listening

to this, you know, thank you.

I haven't actually told you this, but the, I haven't had a plumber that

I've been dealing with for like 10, 12 plus years, and I remember some

of my first interactions with him.

I was telling him as a young builder what he should be doing as an

experienced plumber now, just because.

Potentially stamp my authority.

Now.

I remember there came a time where I think he called me out and I, it was that

moment I went back and reflected on it and thought to myself, oh, hang on a minute.

Maybe he's onto something here.

Maybe, maybe my best approach here is actually to invite them

into the decision making process.

So if I'm, there's a difference between me telling him how to do something and

asking him how he thinks he should do it.

There's two completely different things there.

And I also feel that us, I would say men, probably more so, and

I'm, I'm trying not to sort

Uh, females are better listeners.

You can say it.

I'll say

Yeah.

Yeah.

So men, men are, you know, they, they wanna try and be the alpha,

they wanna try and be the boss.

And I wonder, you know, that there's less personal awareness.

I think the biggest thing that I'd against any.

Well, hey, we have a lot of people reach out and say, oh,

like what advice do you have?

And you've just, my an I've just about to change my answer

based on what you just said.

The biggest advice I give to anyone starting their building career, even

business career in any form of business, is you don't know what you don't know.

I think it's really one of the most important things that you can

understand that you can know a little bit about certain things, but when

you know a little bit about a lot, you can become quite dangerous.

I think that's why it's really important that you put good people

around you to create a team that you put a plumber that can call you out

on it, or an electrician that can be like, no, you don't understand this.

This is what we've gotta think about.

And then I would say, now Ham, you would probably go into that conversation

like, Hey, what do you think here?

I think this, but I, you probably might have a better way of attacking it.

Yeah, I mean, and, and to, and to use.

You know, I'm gonna steal this sentence from Simon Sin 'cause I'm a

massive fan of his leadership style.

Some of my most successful relationships on site are when

I actually see the person first.

And I probably said this before, it's about making that connection with someone

and having that respect with someone and making them feel like they're valued.

Because at the end of the day, like we can, as builders, we

can't expect to know everything.

Oh, we can,

but, but you, you also pride yourself on being a very good networker 'cause

you're able to get along with everyone.

And I always joke that you are Switzerland in our relationship.

How does that go when you are all of a sudden that, you, you are very good at

bringing everyone in, but also at the same time like that you can't teach that.

Like that's something I don't personally think that you can learn.

I, so you've always had it there, but then on the other hand, you're

also at one point being so dominant to be like, I want it done this way.

'cause they're conflicting personalities.

You said something really important and in, I think in answer to your

question, Matt Hamish said invite them into the decision making process.

So there's a difference between clean up your fucking mess, there's

fucking shit all over the place.

I can't stand this, just get it done.

Versus hey, I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed with this mess and I'd really like a hand.

How about we set aside some time to do something, same outcome, which is

tidying up very different process, invitational it, like it's an inviting

somebody in to be able to actually

solve the problem.

And the other part that you said, which is so important, I've just written down,

see the person, not the problem first.

Because if we invite the person in and then we become

a team against the problem as

if the person is the problem and that potentially could have been Hamish.

I think that comes down to self-reflection and, and experience.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I do think you can learn these skills in terms of learn.

You, you said Matt earlier, like the networking and the being able

to bring people in and the skills that Hamish is really good at.

I've known him for a long time and I think that those skills have really

developed over the last, you know, how long have we known each other?

Probably 12 years or more.

I'm not sure a long time,

but you can absolutely learn those people.

Skills.

I'm, I'm still developing skills.

I can't believe the things that I can challenge people in the

room just by a different, uh, language and a different approach.

, I'm gonna use a very recent experience and, you know, if, if this person's

listening, you know, I'm saying this for the most amount of love and respect.

Uh, and I'm, I think I communicated that on Monday when we had a conversation,

I was having some problems on site and you know, I was, I was really, it

was really quite bothering me and I.

I don't know.

She should be some kind of fucking, uh, I don't know, business mentor person because

the way that she sees things is amazing.

So thank you, Lucy and I actually came to the conclusion that I could

approach the problem so many different ways and blame and do whatever.

But instead, you know, I, I sort of went through this conversation with

Lucy about, you know, well, I, I, I'm aware that there's other stuff

going on in this person's life, and I'm aware that that's also having an

impact on how he's showing up at work.

And I said to Lucy, I could probably say all of these things, but I almost

don't think that he's ready to hear that.

So maybe the best way for me to approach it is to say, I've got a few

bits of information or some advice to give you, but I almost don't

feel like you're ready to hear it.

When you do think that you're ready to hear it, I'm here for us to go

out and have a coffee I thought it was a really positive conversation

and we, we did get to an outcome, and I love this sort of team versus the

problem kind of approach because I could have been an absolute asshole.

I think I had every single right to be kicking and screaming and.

Making a big deal about what happened, but I chose to take a different approach

and bring them into solving the problem that's there and not focus too much on who

actually was responsible for the problem.

And, you know, we went around about a few times and we kind of landed

on a, in a really good place.

And for me, I, it took me a lot to just sit there and listen because I'm always

wanting to butt in and, and give my advice or, or be reactive to what's happening and

kind of hit back with a, you know, playing that kind of conversational tennis.

But really I sat down and just listened.

I probably got more outta that conversation that I would

have if I said, you fucked up.

it's interesting 'cause the, the style of communication that you're

talking about, so if you can see it's, it's an open-handed one.

So an open conversation, which is, Hey, there's some stuff

that it'd be good to talk about.

Let me know when you're ready to talk about it.

So first of all, 'cause if we just launch into you fucked up, or you did this or you

keep butting in or something, something, absolutely you're gonna have the person

on either defensive or the attack.

They're either gonna come right back at you or defend, defend, defend.

If it's like there's this thing that keeps happening and I'd really like to there's

an interaction that's occurring and I'd love for us to be able to solve it.

When's a good time?

So First of all, that disarms the person, but it also gets their buy-in.

You have invited them in to be able to talk about the problem and then they

can get some ownership as opposed to, like most of us frankly are, are adults,

like we've got an adult skin on, but most of us are having fairly young

responses when we're uncomfortable.

You know, I often say to people, you know, we're, we're a little

kid wandering around in an adult costume and there are a lot of our.

Initial responses are you know, just as they were a little kid getting in

trouble or we've done the wrong thing.

And so it's actually to, to disarm the person, not in a nefarious kind of

way, but to disarm them so that you're able to bring them in is a real skill

and you absolutely can develop that.

You 100%.

I reckon I've got a lot better at it, but I sure as hell, I'm not perfect

at it, and it's certainly something like one of my goals this year was to

actually become a much better listener

It's so hard.

so hard, particularly, I don't know, for me personally, because

my brain works so quick and fast and always try to solve a problem.

I find it hard to kind of

Go on that information gathering session and then process the information.

I kind of wanna hit back with a solution straight away.

Have you read the book?

Never Split the Difference.

It's by Chris Voss.

So it's about F-F-F-B-I negotiator and he talks

about it's unreal, like trying to like learn to listen.

Uh, definitely a great book to start with, but also have know how to negotiate

and keep conversation going where you feel like you are having input.

Where you feel like you're talking, but you are forcing them to talk.

I shouldn't say forcing forcings not the the great word to use, but brilliant book

out there for anyone that wants to learn

I might have said this before, but one of the hardest things to learn about

being a psychologist is, is to shut up.

Literally because you've got all this information, you've got all these

facts, you've got all this science, you've got all these things, you've

got all these techniques, da da, da.

And really what's gonna be most beneficial is learning more and understanding more.

So then you actually both know what you're dealing with.

It's really interesting.

Are you often sitting there just being like, fucking listen.

Alright, you little shit.

Like, just listen to what I'm saying, like never.

No, I can honestly say never in my personal life.

Oh, yes.

Yeah.

Okay.

And you, and,

Julie is married to Tom after all.

solid.

Love you, Tom.

we, yeah.

I know.

I just feel like it'd be so hard to, I suppose with any work you get into your

work, little get up once you hit there and you just can switch on and off.

Yeah.

It's not, it's a different kind of listening.

So,

active

Active listening.

Yeah, absolutely.

And all of those skills are very teachable.

I used to be an osteopath before I was a psychologist, and so people used to say to

me, oh my God, how the hell can you stand listening to people just banging on about

their backs and it's like you're actually listening for something different.

So in that instance, I'm listening for exacerbate, like things that make

it worse, things that make it better.

When does it, like, it's a very diagnostic kind of thinking, so I'm

not, it doesn't come through a filter of listening to somebody whinge, which

is exactly the same as in psychology.

So in my personal life, if I'm out shopping and somebody wants to dump

some stuff on me and I've not, I don't really wanna listen to that.

I, it goes through a different filter.

When I'm at work, I'm listening for thinking patterns.

I'm.

Piecing it together with history.

I'm thinking about the themes that we've been working about.

I'm holding their goals in my mind.

So it's a totally different kind of listening.

And that can sometimes be interesting 'cause like are you listening to solve?

Are you listening to learn?

Are you listening To understand there's different types of kind of listening.

Are you good with awkward silences when you can?

Will you just sit there and wait for someone else just to talk?

I absolutely do that.

Can't overuse it because we don't wanna make the people feel too awkward.

But you've gotta remember that sometimes it takes a while to

actually think through your response.

And so if you sit there and allow somebody a little bit of time to

think it through, very often the first comment will come out and then they get

a bit more time to reflect and then.

What I would like to say the absolute gold comes out, it gets super awkward if

you're doing that like all of the time.

But yeah, very comfortable with awkward silences 'cause

they're not awkward for me.

I actually really love where this episode's gone because it's, I, I

think the, the things that we've talked about today, I would say that

as business owners and, and as, I guess as leaders on sites and all those kinds

of things, like we're having these kinds of conversations all the time.

Uh, you know, we're dealing with people that have things outside of work.

Rather than just at work.

And I really love this and I just brought it up just before

this team versus the problem.

'cause it kind of depersonalizes it.

Even if you have a problem with the person who's doing the things, you're inviting

them in to be part of the problem.

Could you give some advice on.

like some strategies for us to be able to do that?

So one would be thinking about what you are bringing to the conversation.

And so, you know, I often talk about sort of.

Moderating and regulating your own response.

So if I use a work example for me, and just as an aside, I've

got a, I've only got a small team.

I've got a team of 5, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.

Yep.

And then me, I'm six.

And my lens that I have to work against is what do I need to solve?

So somebody will say something and my like, baseline response, not, not

clinical work, but staff teamwork is when somebody talks to me, it's like.

What's the problem I've gotta solve?

That's, that's what I'm thinking.

And I'm working this year on going, are they talking to

me because they wanna talk?

Are they talking to me because they wanna problem solve?

Or are they talking to me because they want a solution?

And I'm actually asking, is this a listening chat or is

this, would you like some advice?

Like what do you need?

What do you need from me?

As opposed to just assuming that if you're talking to the so-called boss, then.

What this conversation is about is that I have to fix the problem.

Because often, like we're all business owners, right?

We're super busy, so sometimes we just dive straight to, okay, get to the point

and then I can give you the answer.

And that's often not necessarily what they want, haven't answered your question, but,

I find that actually I, I see what you're saying because sometimes I found

recently that I'm getting way more.

More direct than I ever have been with everyone.

I don't know that as you get busier, you just feel like you have less time,

but I feel like that's a really hard space to navigate when we talk about

conversations and just , try and invite 'em into the conversation, but also just

being like, I need to get into my shit.

To that too.

I can't remember what book it is, but it's, it's when someone sort of

hands you their monkey and then the monkey goes onto your back and then

all of a sudden you've got like 10 different people's monkeys on your back.

As business owners, we are gonna have people come to us for, with questions and

answers, like wanting to know answers.

Sometimes a real skill is to say, hang on.

You know what?

You know the answer here, I'm gonna put that back onto you because a lot of the

time we're left holding all their monkeys and solving them ourselves, and we've got

all these other things that we need to do.

So I think that's actually a real skill to learn to, you

hire people to do a job, right?

It's not then responsibility hired.

what happens then if and what's the old saying?

Don't bring your shit to work because like you can, you can sit there trying

to help someone, but what if they bring what's happening outside of what to

work and then make it a burden on you?

That is an ongoing thing.

I, when you work with people, people have stuff going on, don't

Yeah, to, oh, totally.

I'm not saying it's a problem, by the way,

I personally think that that whole, that adage of don't

bring your shit to work is old.

I

Yeah, totally.

that's, used, like, I don't think it's relevant anymore.

Like sometimes I'm gonna bring shit to work that's not work

related the reality is, yes, work is a big part of people's lives and

they probably spent such a long, like a big part of their life there.

But would it be their first choice to be there?

Would they prefer to be home with their

so, so let me, let me rephrase this then.

What if it starts to affect other people?

Can you gimme an example, Matt?

Hypothetically like I'll talk about this like, uh, like I've, Nicole and I

are having our first baby in June, and what if all of a sudden I'm short on

time, I'm short on sleep, I'm shitty, I'm bringing my, my shit to work,

and I'm, it's having a direct effect on other, other people because I am.

Maybe I'm not dealing with my own mental health correctly, and because I'm

neglecting it, I'm being a shit on site.

I'm not listening to anyone.

I'm doing my own thing.

I think I know everything.

I'm not relying on those around me and inviting them into the conversation.

But now I, uh, am putting everyone else in a bad position.

I.

So hopefully in that instance, you.

Go back to one of the things that we talked about earlier, which

is how to talk about to somebody when you're worried about them.

And the principles are pretty simple.

Like when you're worried about somebody or something's going on, Hey, I've

noticed this, I'm worried about you, or, I've noticed that this has changed.

Is there a time that we can talk about this?

that was a tricky question, Matt, 'cause I thought that you're asking

about if somebody else is bringing stuff in, but you are now thinking

about like if you are bringing

Uh, yeah, so, so yeah, I was using, pretend that I'm a employee, for example.

Uh, so like both.

So it's actually good that we talk about both.

'cause as me as a business owner, that a lot of it may say an apprentice or a work

person might feel a bit scared and asking the question to, because it's the boss and

the bosses, you don't wanna question them.

But on the flip side, what if that's one of my employees and I, and it might not.

They're there, you know, something's going on, they haven't told you what's going on.

You know, they might have a condition or they might have an issue going on, but

when they're like, it's directly affecting other people's wellbeing on site.

I mean it.

Hard question.

Sorry.

Hard conversations are hard, but they're, they're hard because they're important.

And I think it, it, it goes well, it goes back to that really clear conversation,

which is, Hey, I've noticed these things.

I'm a bit concerned, or I'm a bit worried, or I've noticed

that things have changed for you.

When's a good time to talk about this and really address, because let's say

somebody's bringing in they're getting really angry and yelling at people,

for example, like that's not okay.

What if you know they've got issues then like you're, they've already

told you that they've got something.

I'm making up stuff.

By the way, this is this is not someone I'm, this is someone

this, this person's fictitious.

But yeah.

What if they, like, they've explained to you that I have an issue and like, oh,

I'm, I'm struggling with something, but then they keep putting on other people.

so we'd wanna make sure that they're getting some support.

Yep.

And it might start to get to a, a place where, you know,

'cause you've got a team, right?

And so balancing the needs of everybody is really important.

And if, if, if somebody's coming in, regardless of what's happening for them,

we wanna support them as much as they can.

And then there does sometimes come a point where the the impact on the other team

really has to be addressed quite firmly.

And sometimes that's about.

We need to make sure we get some support.

Are there things that we need to modify in the workplace so that you're

able to come to work in a better way?

Everybody goes through difficult stuff.

I think when it starts to impact others, that's when we have to have

really important conversations,

And that's a hard conversation because you know that they might

mentally not be there, and now you're potentially forcing something else

that's very difficult on them, on them.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Doesn't, doesn't it, doesn't, it, doesn't it go.

Back to, I guess what we were saying earlier on saying, well, let's see

the person first and let's acknowledge them first, and then get on that level.

And then I think it makes it easier to have these conversations Like if you,

if you're inviting themselves into inviting them into the conversation

by asking how they are, and you know, I've noticed this X, Y, and Z.

You, I guess you've broken down that kind of barrier.

And then I think maybe it would give you an opportunity to then have a

conversation around the behavior.

And I know Julie, you and I have had a actually a chat about this

when I was going through some stuff with one of my employees

it's getting them to acknowledge.

That we're talking about their behavior and not them, and making

it really clear that we're not talking about you as a person.

We're talking about your behavior and how that behavior is affecting other people.

I feel it does make it easier when you know that that person is a good person

and this behavior is out of character.

Yeah, absolutely.

So that idea, like say for example, a lot of it is language.

That's why Matt, that book that you talked about is spectacular.

Never split the difference, there's a difference between, you always

interrupt me or you are always.

X or Y versus I've noticed this thing sometimes when the conversation

happens there are interruptions.

How do we work with that?

Yep.

So sometimes when we speak, or I'll give it a different example.

So if I might say, look, so I'm, I notice that sometimes when we speak,

I don't get to finish my sentences.

Is there something that we could work on together?

Same thing I'm saying, you are interrupting me all the time.

But what you'll find is the response is completely

different when you're not going.

I'm pointing at my pointy finger at people going, you, you, you, as opposed

to there's this thing that's happening.

How do we work with it?

It's exactly the same message.

'cause sometimes people think that when you are going to have a, an

invitational style of conversation or, we're talking about seeing the person,

not the problem, that you just have to suck up these problems, and that's a

hundred percent not what we're saying.

It just is, it's still looking at the outcome that we're trying to achieve.

But going around it in a different way.

it, it just circles back to that team vs the problem mentality that we

were talking about earlier on today.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's a good 360 8.

just to jump back to something else that you said earlier, in terms of

that business owner thing where you're kind of like, you're just there going,

just give me the bloody question.

I wanna fix it and get on with my day.

Something that I've been practicing and I've explained to staff that this

is what I'm doing is when they come to me with a question, I go, oh, so

if I wasn't here, what would you do?

Like, what, what would your be your call on this?

And they know that I'm doing this.

From a perspective of building their confidence so that they're feeling

more confident and confident around making their decisions, but oh, yep.

So what would you do if I in here?

Yeah, ripper, that's perfect.

Or actually, that's great.

I'd probably add this and this.

And then they go away with yet another capacity building kind of interaction.

And long term they ask me less questions because they know they're

in their lane, they know what they're doing and they know that.

They're, they're good at what they're doing.

So it's that, but it's still, but introducing it.

'cause if you just, if you just rocked up and someone asked you a question

and say, well, what would you do?

I wasn't here.

You know, it's a different way of saying it.

Yeah.

I think an important thing to note as a business owner, when you create an

environment where you are putting it back onto your staff members to make decisions,

just be aware and be comfortable with the fact that at some point they're

gonna fail, and failure is a good thing.

Hmm.

I think as a business owner we, our role is to, I guess, manage

the fallout of that failure.

So if we know that there's gonna be something really critical that

that decision, like say it's gonna be super expensive, if they fuck it

up, then I think it's at that point that we might make a decision to

kind of intervene or offer advice.

I think if you are giving someone agency to make a decision, take ownership

of a failure, learn from the failure, and then not make that mistake again,

like I think as a business owner, we need to know that these are good

steps forward rather than steps back.

I think that's really important.

Hamish, can I offer some alternatives with some language?

Would that be okay?

Sure.

the word failure can sometimes feel quite loaded for people.

And I'm coming at this from a psychologist perspective in terms of I get to

sit across from people all day and hear, you know, the difficult things

that they think about themselves.

And that's a really common thing.

I'm a failure or I'm not good enough.

And so we can sometimes use slightly different language around a mistake.

Which has a different kind of weight and meaning to a failure.

And it might be interesting to do an experiment and sort of notice,

like see what happens when you use that language versus a different

type of language Now that, that's a fairly nuanced piece of feedback.

Right.

But I, I know, I know that you thrive on this stuff that's

someone or you, or people who actually go, okay, what can I try?

How can I tweak my language?

I'm doing that flat out all of the time.

I'm never gonna stop learning how to better explain better, engage better

something to, to get buy-in from people.

No, thank you.

Thank you for that feedback.

I'll definitely take it on.

You know, 'cause I have used that language and that narrative before

about failure is a good thing.

But I guess it does throw up loaded connotations, doesn't it?

When you start talking about failure.

For some people, and then we don't wanna be paranoid about our language either.

Like you can't, it's, it's not like we have to sit there and be super

paranoid, but it can be really interesting to experiment with

different phrasing and see what you get.

I, I find that stuff fascinating.

But sometimes you just need to tell someone that they failed

devil's advocate here.

Like be like, that wasn't good enough.

Yeah,

That's okay too.

Yeah.

But if you use it all the time, it loses its value.

Yeah.

And I think too, Matt, there's different ways to be able to tell somebody that

there's a big difference between, hey mate, you've fucked up here.

Yep.

Or,

Yeah.

maybe we could have gone about it this way or.

And quite frankly, sometimes the delivery is more about your own distress.

And so learning how to, we've, we've got a thing, there's a thing called

externalizing, which is, I feel annoyed or angry, so I'm just gonna spew that at you.

that's not okay.

What is it?

You can absolutely express how disappointed you are, how angry you

are, how whatever you are, but you don't have to spew it at somebody.

Think about a toddler, right?

A toddler chucks a tantrum and throws it out at people.

Yep.

And that's essentially what externalizing is.

So that's where we've gotta do some really good self-reflection

and go, me coming in and spewing out my, my anger, my frustration,

that's gotta go somewhere else

It is the tone of your voice, I feel as well.

Like you can say, you fucked that up, and then it's like you fucked that up.

Like there's two, like the way it comes across can come across

so differently in the same words.

absolutely.

Absolutely.

And it's 100% not about sucking it up and not saying the difficult things,

but learning how to, like if you go barreling in really pissed off, good luck.

Like good luck.

It's not gonna go well.

Yeah.

So, I've just got one last thing to say and, and it's probably,

uh, like, I obviously listen to the imperfects podcast.

It's one of my favorite, uh, podcasts that we, that I listen to.

Other than the mindful builder.

Of course, there was an episode with Billy Slater on there and he has this mantra

of catching people doing the right thing.

'cause so often we catch people doing the wrong thing.

So, and, and his, his thought process behind it was, if you are constantly

catching people doing the right thing.

It almost gives you more agency to pick someone up when they're doing

the wrong thing because they know that you are very, you know, you're,

you are, you're always acknowledging all the good things that they do.

But if all of a sudden you're just acknowledging the things that they're

doing badly, how are they gonna know that they're doing the other things right?

And that really stuck with me, like catching people doing the right thing.

That's really cool.

That's really cool.

We start all of our meetings with a win, it can be personal or it can

be work or what can be whatever.

And that's targeted to make sure that we are spending at least

some time focusing on the things that we're doing well, either

personally or professionally before.

'cause often meetings are around, this is a problem, this needs solving da da

dah, to actually provide some balance.

Hey, Julie.

Thank you.

That was awesome.

I really enjoyed that.

Thank you for taking, uh, me out of my familiar slash comfort zone and expanding

allowing us to,