part 2

[00:00:00] Ross: Hi there, and a very warm welcome to Season 6, Episode 12 of PeopleSoup. It's Ross McIntosh here.

[00:00:06] Switched at birth

[00:00:06] Eric: but if

[00:00:07] you were switched at birth and

[00:00:10] raised by a, uh, a, a drug cartel

[00:00:15] boss.

[00:00:16] You probably wouldn't be

[00:00:18] sitting here talking compassion

[00:00:20] with me.

[00:00:21] You would be

[00:00:21] a very

[00:00:22] different, probably

[00:00:24] much more violent and, you know, your face would have

[00:00:27] tattoos all over them.

[00:00:29] And, uh, you know,

[00:00:31] you would,

[00:00:32] you would be, uh,

[00:00:34] probably a version of you that

[00:00:37] this version of you probably wouldn't like very much.

[00:00:40] But

[00:00:40] again,

[00:00:41] we

[00:00:41] don't choose

[00:00:43] the person

[00:00:44] that we've become. Now we can wake

[00:00:45] up and get off autopilot more.

[00:00:48] We, we, we

[00:00:49] have some say in in who we can become.

[00:00:52] Ross: In this episode, I continue my chat with Dr. Eric Goodman, And we dive into his new book, The Mindful Freakout, a rescue manual for being at your best when life is at its worst.

[00:01:03] The ingredients Eric brings to People's Soup are a beautiful blend of Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, ACT, and Compassion Focused Therapy, CFT. Eric shares the origin story of the book and presents his accessible and useful quick start guide. We also chat about the fears, blocks, and resistances to compassion, and you'll find out what the acronym AFGO stands for.

[00:01:26] those of you who are new to PeopleSoup, welcome! It's great to have you here. We aim to provide you with the ingredients for a better work life. From behavioral science and beyond. For those of you who are regular Paysoopers, Thanks for tuning in again. We love it that you're part of our community. A quick scoot over to the news desk. I'd love it if you checked out my new [00:02:00] website at rossmcintosh. co. uk and, if you sign up for my occasional newsletter, you'll be sure to receive the first one, which will go out before Christmas.

[00:02:09] For those of you who spotted that there was no episode last week, alas, I lost my voice, so I couldn't record an intro. But on form this week and recording this from the Mespel Hotel in Dublin, which I'd highly recommend.

[00:02:22] So let's crack on. For now, get a brew on and have a listen to the second part of my chat with Eric Goodman.

[00:02:34] So Eric, I'd like to turn to your book, The Mindful Freakout, a rescue manual for being at your best when life is at its worst.

[00:02:42] I've thoroughly enjoyed reading the book over the last Well, I've, I read it and then I digged back into it for certain areas and chapters and practices.

[00:02:51] So, let me start with my

[00:02:53] review.

[00:02:54] Eric: I just say that That's that's It's really my intention for people to do that with this book, it was written to be, somewhat of a, of a reference

[00:03:06] in, in challenging times. That

[00:03:09] isn't, I didn't have the expectation that people will necessarily all read it page to page cover to cover. but be able to

[00:03:19] kind

[00:03:19] of start with the, um, that quick start guide and then get help immediately and then

[00:03:28] whichever areas they're

[00:03:30] struggling with in particular, they can go and do a deeper dive into those skills.

[00:03:35] so

[00:03:36] Ross: absolutely, and you've mentioned one of the features of the book. It's

[00:03:39] like when you

[00:03:40] get a new phone, a new television, Eric's book, which is fabulous.

[00:03:45] Let me just share with you

[00:03:45] my review and then we'll dive in a bit further. as Billy Ocean once said,

[00:03:51] when the going gets tough, the tough get going. However, there are different ways that we can get going.

[00:03:57] As humans, many of us might respond to distressing [00:04:00] moments on our emotional

[00:04:01] autopilot. Those well worn, habitual responses where we might

[00:04:04] blow our tops, spiral out of control, or freak out.

[00:04:09] I'd recommend this book as a practical and illuminating

[00:04:11] manual for those who would like to explore a different response to life's challenging

[00:04:15] moments.

[00:04:16] Eric brings together his decades of practice and experience

[00:04:20] to guide us through the development of an alternative response, blending ACT and

[00:04:24] CFT in a beautifully accessible and human way,

[00:04:27] helping us to build our own

[00:04:29] workable actions when life is at its

[00:04:31] worst.

[00:04:32] I found this book extremely useful and

[00:04:34] Both myself and to inform my work with clients.

[00:04:37] Thank you, Eric, for showing us that the tough can get

[00:04:40] going

[00:04:40] in,

[00:04:40] an entirely different, more effective, and

[00:04:43] compassionate way. Bravo. I'd love to know more about your creative approach. were the seeds planted

[00:04:51] for writing this book? Thank you, Eric.

[00:04:53] Eric: I was toying with the idea of writing a book for people having panic attacks. It's a big part of my practice is working with people who are experiencing panic attacks for a a number of reasons. And That was kind of in the, in, in my back burner, kind of, kind of playing around with, with different, uh, concepts for that.

[00:05:20] And then, uh, the world changed with the, uh, the COVID lockdown. And, daily on the news out here, and I'm curious if, if you had that same experience where you were, we were seeing people, kind of losing their cool in very public sorts of ways. So people screaming at each other about masks in grocery stores, people fighting on

[00:05:46] airplanes, people just seeming to be driven by their threat systems.

[00:05:54] And, you know, people causing a scene on an airplane and then getting [00:06:00] publicly, uh, dragged off the plane. and then later when they were interviewed saying, you know, please don't judge me based

[00:06:10] on the worst day I ever had in my life. I, felt a sense of compassion for people who were losing their cool.

[00:06:19] Um, the people who were even doing some really awful stuff like, like starting fights on

[00:06:26] airplanes and, and, screaming,

[00:06:29] about masks in, in in grocery stores. I looked at that as. Their threat systems were just driving the bus and that they were being swept along for the ride and, and who among us hasn't had their threat system take over and have them do things

[00:06:49] that, that they later regret.

[00:06:51] So if you've ever gotten into, you know,

[00:06:54] a, a, heated

[00:06:55] argument

[00:06:57] with a loved one.

[00:06:58] That's the threat system is driving that, that, that bus.

[00:07:02] Because if you're having a

[00:07:03] heated argument with someone,

[00:07:06] what's your goal? I mean, if your goal is

[00:07:09] to persuade,

[00:07:12] that's the worst

[00:07:12] possible thing you could

[00:07:13] do.

[00:07:14] If your goal, if

[00:07:16] it's a loved one, let's

[00:07:17] say a romantic partner, and you're having a heated

[00:07:22] argument with them, that's

[00:07:23] If your goal is to have this deep

[00:07:26] loving connection with this

[00:07:27] person,

[00:07:29] that's probably not a strategy that you would, you would pick. and so, you know,

[00:07:34] Sabre Toothed Tiger

[00:07:34] Eric: our threat systems, they're designed to, to take us over

[00:07:39] almost

[00:07:40] like we're being possessed.

[00:07:42] And there's very adaptive reasons for that. So if you're being chased by a, by a saber toothed tiger.

[00:07:51] You want your threat system to just flood you with energy and dread and just make your [00:08:00] body run

[00:08:01] from the situation as quickly as you can

[00:08:04] Right. Think how maladaptive

[00:08:07] it would be if you're being chased by the saber toothed tiger and you need to stop to make a pro and con list.

[00:08:15] What's the pros of me running? What's the cons? Should I climb a tree? What's the pros? What's the cons?

[00:08:22] you get eaten every time, right? and so we have threat systems that are designed to take over. And in certain situations, that's helpful. If you're driving on the highway and the car in front of you slams on its brakes suddenly, You need your threat system to put your foot on the brake and press it down before you've even registered consciously

[00:08:49] what's going on,

[00:08:50] right? So, it's, it's important. But the

[00:08:54] problem is when it's a misperceived

[00:08:58] threat. And we're being driven by our threat system to

[00:09:03] behave in primitive sorts of ways. We're going to end

[00:09:07] up doing things that

[00:09:09] we wouldn't choose to do.

[00:09:12] And

[00:09:12] that we regret. Now it doesn't make

[00:09:14] sense to beat ourselves up for that. Because you

[00:09:18] are

[00:09:18] locked out of the controls.

[00:09:20] but if you want

[00:09:21] to, you know, meet challenging moments.

[00:09:26] in a way that is helpful, not harmful, and in a ways that eases your suffering

[00:09:34] and allows you to

[00:09:36] choose how to respond in a way that's based on your values, not,

[00:09:40] not your threat emotions.

[00:09:42] That's what I wrote this book for.

[00:09:46] Ross: Wonderful. And you mentioned earlier the quick start guide. So, if someone is listening to this thinking, Oh gosh, I'd be really interested in, in reading Eric's book. Maybe just describe how we can [00:10:00] begin to make those changes. Talk to us a little bit about the quick start guide.

[00:10:04] Eric: Yeah, so, you know, my, My thought with this book and, and, and sometimes I'll, I'll give it to clients that are struggling with things like, uh, you know, panic attacks or sometimes, you know, they're, they're struggling for whatever thoughts come to their head, like an OCD or, or, uh, with, kind of a wide variety of threats. And I'll give them that and just tell them, you know, when, when you feel like you're really struggling, just look, look, at this quick start guide because it kind of walks you through steps for how to deal with these moments in a way that you're not going to regret and, and that will likely ease your suffering more than, than, than if you're just on autopilot.

[00:10:55] Autopilot

[00:10:55] Eric: So, You know, it's, it's, it's, it's a very much a compassion focused ACT approach that step number one is you have to get off autopilot and, you know, ACT, has been talking about this for years, but I'm not sure that they've really emphasized that this is one of the most crucial things in, in mental health, that, if we're driven on, on, on autopilot, we're locked out.

[00:11:26] And so we have to take control back over our own actions and reactions. And so being able to recognize when you're, when you're dealing with a really challenging moment, just kind of take it, taking a few seconds, just call in a little timeout and you say, all right. Let me handle this in a way that's going to be helpful, not

[00:11:52] harmful. And so you're setting this, this compassionate intention right from the

[00:11:57] start. and then doing, [00:12:00] uh, kind of, kind of mindfulness sorts of approaches and, and, and, and breathing

[00:12:04] approaches. being able to ground yourself in the moment, because when we're under threat, our minds are very often racing to the

[00:12:15] past or the future.

[00:12:16] Like what's going to happen? What's going to happen? Well, let's come back to to right here, right now, right? Maybe you're just sitting in a chair in your office. Just feel what it feels like to sit in that chair, look around you, right? Come back to this moment here. You know, notice that you're holding your breath and, and just let that breath, come and go more naturally.

[00:12:39] Maybe, maybe even prolong that exhale so that you get that sympathetic nervous system, uh, woken

[00:12:46] up. Then once, once we

[00:12:50] have

[00:12:51] choice, once we've, we've gotten off

[00:12:53] autopilot,

[00:12:54] Turn towards what's difficult

[00:12:54] Eric: Then we need to do something that kind of runs counter to our instincts. And that is we got to turn towards

[00:13:00] what's difficult, right?

[00:13:02] Because you know, when people are feeling

[00:13:05] painful feelings, now people are so accustomed to running from their experience. They pull out their phone And they, start

[00:13:13] going through YouTube, right? They, they're running from their feelings. And when you run from your feelings

[00:13:20] again and again, and again, you get worse

[00:13:22] and worse and worse about how do you feel feelings adaptively. And one thing about

[00:13:29] human life is it's chocked full of

[00:13:31] painful feelings. and so we better get

[00:13:35] good at handling them, right, because they're not going to stop. And one of the themes across

[00:13:41] everything I've written is. and I guess that's, that's what I get from ACT. and that

[00:13:47] Anxiety, anger, grief free is not an option

[00:13:47] Eric: is any, any

[00:13:49] time you've ever heard things about becoming anxiety free or anger free or, or, you know, free from, from grief or

[00:13:57] whatever, those have [00:14:00] always been marketing hype. It's

[00:14:03] never

[00:14:03] been

[00:14:03] an option. Humans

[00:14:06] experience painful emotions. That's, that's kind

[00:14:08] of our thing.

[00:14:10] And, and so we want to

[00:14:12] be

[00:14:13] able to experience it. Now we can

[00:14:15] experience

[00:14:16] it, in a way that, that

[00:14:19] is a

[00:14:19] battle, a struggle. Like when I talked about getting into the

[00:14:23] cold water, you can go to war with that cold, and you're

[00:14:27] going to feel worse.

[00:14:28] You can

[00:14:29] go to

[00:14:29] war with your feeling

[00:14:31] of

[00:14:31] anxiety, anger, sadness,

[00:14:33] and you're going to feel worse. Or you

[00:14:36] can take a moment, stop, and try

[00:14:40] to engage that, that compassion system, that thing that got me through that

[00:14:44] really dark moment in my life.

[00:14:47] Right,

[00:14:47] so you can, you

[00:14:48] can switch

[00:14:50] on that part of you that lets you

[00:14:53] have

[00:14:53] that

[00:14:53] sense of inner strength, wisdom to not judge, And, this commitment to doing what's helpful.

[00:15:01] And, and there's a lot of different strategies for doing that.

[00:15:05] and then just

[00:15:06] some of the practical acts

[00:15:07] stuff like diffusion, right? So when I see, you know,

[00:15:12] somebody cuts me off in

[00:15:13] traffic and I, you know, I get, I experienced the

[00:15:16] thought, you know, I need to teach that person a lesson. Being able to

[00:15:20] see that,

[00:15:21] that's a thought that got activated. That was,

[00:15:23] that was an

[00:15:24] algorithm that, that, that got activated.

[00:15:26] you

[00:15:26] know, pushed

[00:15:27] that, that, is

[00:15:28] happening,

[00:15:29] but it isn't you. And you don't have to choose, you don't have to hook

[00:15:34] on it if you don't choose to do so,

[00:15:37] right. If you're off autopilot, and, and, and

[00:15:40] then

[00:15:41] notice where you're struggling. And

[00:15:43] one of the, I think, single

[00:15:46] best. Uh, strategies and, and, and for therapy is

[00:15:51] just check in with your body And see where are you

[00:15:56] at war with your emotion? Are you gritting your

[00:15:59] teeth? [00:16:00] Are you hunching your shoulders? Are you balling up your

[00:16:02] fists? Are

[00:16:03] you fidgeting with your feet? Right? All

[00:16:05] things that, that, that, are about experiential avoidance.

[00:16:09] I don't want to feel this thing, so I'm

[00:16:11] tightening up, I'm bracing.

[00:16:13] But when we do that.

[00:16:15] We're

[00:16:15] further teaching our nervous

[00:16:18] system

[00:16:18] that this moment is threatening, right?

[00:16:21] If, if you're in combat, if you're,

[00:16:25] you're about to

[00:16:26] get into a fistfight with someone,

[00:16:28] you

[00:16:28] want to tighten your body. You want to constrict

[00:16:31] your breathing. You want to,

[00:16:32] you know, squeeze your stomach because it's going to give you the best chance to, to,

[00:16:38] deal with that actual threat. But when you're doing that because you

[00:16:42] got a work deadline coming up,

[00:16:44] you're just creating more suffering for, for, for,

[00:16:47] no

[00:16:48] good reason. And then, and then lastly, so, so we kind of get off autopilot.

[00:16:55] We turn

[00:16:56] towards our

[00:16:57] experience

[00:16:57] rather than running from it.

[00:17:00] And then we think for a moment, right? What,

[00:17:04] how do I

[00:17:04] feel

[00:17:05] like handling this situation?

[00:17:08] Right. Well, I, you know, maybe you're,

[00:17:10] you're having a, a,

[00:17:12] uh, an argument with your

[00:17:14] with your partner and you

[00:17:16] feel like

[00:17:17] insulting

[00:17:18] their mother or something like that, right?

[00:17:21] You feel like you want to teach them a lesson. and then you start to say, all right, well, if I

[00:17:26] was at my absolute best, what would I want to do? How would I want to deal with this?

[00:17:33] And then that

[00:17:34] gives you

[00:17:34] that values based, goal to

[00:17:38] to, work towards.

[00:17:40] Ross: wonderful, thank you. Thank you Eric. So. Listeners, if that hasn't convinced you to

[00:17:45] go and explore this book, I'm not sure what will. But that's so beautifully brought to,

[00:17:49] life, Eric. And I love the whole book, in case you hadn't gathered. And my two favorite chapters, the ones I've been revisiting, are chapter 7, Compassionate Minds Training, and chapter [00:18:00] 11, Choosing Your Best Self Response.

[00:18:03] And the whole book is so practical. Tell us, tell us more about your approach. How, how did you craft this to make it so practical?

[00:18:10] Eric: Well, I, I spent some time trying

[00:18:14] to figure out

[00:18:16] just this model of integrating

[00:18:18] compassion focused therapy and ACT

[00:18:22] and what I've noticed

[00:18:23] is, is that more and

[00:18:24] more,

[00:18:25] this is

[00:18:26] what ACT people are doing. and even when you and I were earlier, you know, you as an ACT person,

[00:18:33] you've been incorporating

[00:18:35] more and

[00:18:35] more compassion work.

[00:18:37] and and,

[00:18:38] we do this because they, they just go

[00:18:40] really

[00:18:41] well together.

[00:18:43] I happen to think compassion should be part of

[00:18:46] ACT,

[00:18:47] but, you know, they didn't

[00:18:49] ask

[00:18:49] for my vote on

[00:18:50] that,

[00:18:51] Nutshell summary

[00:18:51] Eric: So, when

[00:18:52] people are under threat,

[00:18:54] they need things made very

[00:18:57] simple in the moment,

[00:18:59] right? So, so, all right. Take a timeout, get off autopilot, turn towards what

[00:19:06] you feel,

[00:19:07] and

[00:19:07] take wise

[00:19:08] action based on, on who you want to

[00:19:11] be. so I think

[00:19:12] about like

[00:19:13] my clients who are most distressed, and

[00:19:15] those

[00:19:15] are

[00:19:15] people

[00:19:16] who are having frequent panic attacks.

[00:19:19] And when they're having a

[00:19:19] panic attack,

[00:19:21] They, they need some, some simple

[00:19:25] sorts of, uh,

[00:19:26] ways of dealing with it and, and what people who, who are

[00:19:30] experiencing something like panic disorder, they tend to do the worst possible

[00:19:35] things you can do in the face of a

[00:19:36] panic attack, which is to

[00:19:40] struggle with it, fight it, hate it, and, and beat

[00:19:44] yourself up over

[00:19:45] having it. and so.

[00:19:47] There's another way to approach it that is going to be more effective

[00:19:52] with less suffering.

[00:19:54] Ross: Absolutely. And there was a, there was a four letter acronym in the book [00:20:00] that I enjoyed. It tickled me. And it was AFGO.

[00:20:05] Eric: first time you heard that acronym?

[00:20:08] Ross: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:20:09] Yeah.

[00:20:10] Eric: Yeah, this was, it's been around for a while. This was a supervisor of mine back

[00:20:14] in

[00:20:14] grad school, gave me that acronym. So, AFGO,

[00:20:18] A F G O, stands for

[00:20:21] Another Freeing Growth

[00:20:23] Opportunity. well, that's the PG version. it's actually meant to be

[00:20:28] Another Fucking Growth Opportunity. And, and so what that means is that when

[00:20:33] Life throws

[00:20:34] challenges our way.

[00:20:37] There's the opportunity to

[00:20:39] to

[00:20:39] make things worse. So there's the opportunity to,

[00:20:41] to, grow from them doesn't mean

[00:20:43] we

[00:20:43] like them or want them.

[00:20:46] Right? and that's what

[00:20:47] ACT talks about with this sense of willingness, but the willingness for the reality, the moment to be, the reality of the moment,

[00:20:54] and

[00:20:55] to use this

[00:20:56] situation.

[00:20:57] in a way

[00:20:58] that hopefully will, will

[00:21:00] end up beneficial for you in the

[00:21:02] long term. So if you

[00:21:04] are having that argument

[00:21:06] with, with, with, with your partner, you use that as a way to

[00:21:11] deepen the connection

[00:21:13] rather than

[00:21:14] teach

[00:21:14] them a lesson. Uh, but you can only do that if you're

[00:21:17] not

[00:21:18] on autopilot, right? Or

[00:21:20] if you are Anxious, socially and you've been invited to a party

[00:21:27] where you don't know a

[00:21:28] lot of

[00:21:28] people and

[00:21:29] you can,

[00:21:30] you can avoid

[00:21:32] it or

[00:21:33] you, you can go and you, can tighten

[00:21:36] up and constrict and maybe, you know,

[00:21:38] listen

[00:21:39] to what your anxiety says, which is to

[00:21:41] go sit

[00:21:41] in a corner

[00:21:42] quietly somewhere by yourself.

[00:21:44] Or you can

[00:21:45] use it as a growth opportunity

[00:21:47] to

[00:21:47] say,

[00:21:48] look, I'm going to go and I'm going to meet three people

[00:21:50] And I'm going to get out of my head as far as, thinking about my performance at this party and

[00:21:59] worrying about what other [00:22:00] people think.

[00:22:01] And I'm going to really focus on the people I'm talking

[00:22:05] to and

[00:22:05] trying to find them interesting and trying to see them as a

[00:22:09] fellow human that I can care about.

[00:22:12] Right. And then you have a different experience.

[00:22:15] Ross: And I used exactly that strategy recently at a networking event for psychologists in Seville I was having all sorts of thoughts that my Spanish isn't good enough

[00:22:26] and felt a great

[00:22:28] urge to just run once I'd arrived.

[00:22:31] But I'd actually used your strategies and look, if I speak to three people, that will be a pretty big achievement for me.

[00:22:40] So just, just focus on that and just look around,

[00:22:43] look around the room before

[00:22:44] the event started And

[00:22:45] noticing that everyone was on

[00:22:47] autopilot looking at their phones. Not everyone, there were

[00:22:51] some little cliques of people who obviously knew each other already and what. delighted to see each other, but there were a fair few people around the room

[00:22:58] looking slightly wallflower like and just staring at their phones.

[00:23:02] So I,

[00:23:03] I approached one

[00:23:04] of them and started a

[00:23:05] conversation and,

[00:23:07] and it was fine. I could make myself understood.

[00:23:11] They were very kind and we had a

[00:23:13] lovely conversation and we're still in touch.

[00:23:14] So.

[00:23:15] Eric: That's,

[00:23:16] fantastic. And then you can take it

[00:23:19] even one step further.

[00:23:21] And that is,

[00:23:23] no matter how it

[00:23:24] goes,

[00:23:25] that you're going

[00:23:27] to be a supporter of you.

[00:23:30] if it goes great. You're going to pat yourself on the back and say, Hey, you did this

[00:23:37] hard thing. Good for you. If it goes terribly, you go and, and, uh,

[00:23:43] you know, you can't get the words out

[00:23:45] and

[00:23:45] people laugh at you or whatever, which of course wouldn't

[00:23:48] happen.

[00:23:49] People imagine that would happen.

[00:23:51] And if that were to happen, you're

[00:23:54] going to be the best friend to yourself. And you're going to say, that was [00:24:00] really, really unpleasant. that was

[00:24:02] really difficult, but you you, you, you got through it.

[00:24:06] And, and, uh, you know, we'll get it next time.

[00:24:09] Right. But, but a lot of

[00:24:11] people, you know, they're

[00:24:12] going to get more stuck

[00:24:13] in and kind

[00:24:14] of beating themselves up afterwards

[00:24:17] because they have this, false notion that if you beat yourself up.

[00:24:22] You're going to do better next time.

[00:24:24] It

[00:24:24] just isn't the case.

[00:24:26] Ross: absolutely. Now, Eric, how, how are people responding to, to your book? How are they back to you on how useful It is? Your clients, others?

[00:24:35] Eric: so,

[00:24:36] the, the most of the feedback I get

[00:24:39] is, is from, from my. clients because they're, they're the

[00:24:44] ones that are reading it

[00:24:45] and, and working

[00:24:46] through,

[00:24:47] the, the exercises with

[00:24:48] me. And the vast majority of them.

[00:24:53] Once they understand

[00:24:54] what compassion is, they, they really,

[00:24:57] they like it and, and they find it immensely useful and, and they see how well it

[00:25:03] helps ease their suffering. and then there are people who deal with

[00:25:08] fears, blocks, and resistances to compassion. And they

[00:25:14] either just don't understand why

[00:25:18] someone would do this thing,

[00:25:20] And

[00:25:21] that typically

[00:25:21] because they just haven't, you know,

[00:25:24] a client now who, who just,

[00:25:27] you know, was raised by cold

[00:25:29] narcissistic

[00:25:30] parents

[00:25:31] that showed them no compassion. and so

[00:25:35] then they grew up And and

[00:25:38] they don't

[00:25:38] really understand it because they didn't experience it. If

[00:25:42] you've experienced it, you can. get how it is, right? You can,

[00:25:47] you can understand that

[00:25:49] when, you know,

[00:25:51] your, your child is suffering, being warm and kind and encouraging is better

[00:25:57] than berating them. Right? [00:26:00] and if it's good for them,

[00:26:01] if you have that

[00:26:02] innate wisdom to understand it's good for others, understand you're no different.

[00:26:08] If it's good for them, it's good for you.

[00:26:10] Ross: Amen. Eric, it's great

[00:26:12] to hear your

[00:26:12] book is getting a a positive response

[00:26:15] from your clients and I'd love to to add my. enthusiasm to their feedback and recommend it

[00:26:21] for people in the workplace. You've been so generous with

[00:26:24] sharing insights And

[00:26:25] tips with us. I wonder if there's one more you'd be willing to share as a takeaway for our listeners

[00:26:30] on maybe, maybe slightly with

[00:26:32] a work spin on it

[00:26:33] Eric: well,

[00:26:34] in most workplaces, there is going to be at least one person there who

[00:26:43] is difficult

[00:26:45] to deal with. and there's, there's the joke that, if there isn't

[00:26:50] one, you're that person, right? but everyone really deals with

[00:26:56] difficult

[00:26:56] people in a, in an organization.

[00:26:59] And, uh, if you

[00:27:02] approach

[00:27:02] them as the other, as

[00:27:06] the, the, the

[00:27:07] asshole or whatever, being in

[00:27:10] their presence is going to

[00:27:11] activate a threat reaction.

[00:27:14] And given that you're going to spend potentially more time with them than

[00:27:18] you

[00:27:18] are with your own family,

[00:27:20] wouldn't you want to

[00:27:22] have a

[00:27:22] different sort of reaction when you're around them? and, so being able

[00:27:27] to

[00:27:29] see them as whatever

[00:27:32] made them difficult,

[00:27:35] They didn't choose it.

[00:27:36] They're not making that choice

[00:27:38] to, to be difficult that that got coded into

[00:27:42] them somewhere along the ways,

[00:27:45] right?

[00:27:45] And there's, and if you had, if you were raised by their parents and you had their life

[00:27:50] experiences and their genetics,

[00:27:53] they would be you, you would be them,

[00:27:56] right? Absolutely. [00:28:00] Absolutely.

[00:28:02] trying to do the best that they can

[00:28:05] with what life coded into

[00:28:07] them, right? They're not

[00:28:08] intentionally, the way

[00:28:11] they are,

[00:28:12] right?

[00:28:12] None of us

[00:28:13] are, right? And here, here, here you are with this

[00:28:16] podcast and, and you do this act work,

[00:28:19] Switched at birth

[00:28:19] Eric: but if

[00:28:19] you were switched at birth and

[00:28:22] raised by a, uh, a, a drug cartel

[00:28:27] boss.

[00:28:28] You probably wouldn't be

[00:28:31] sitting here talking compassion

[00:28:32] with me.

[00:28:33] You would be

[00:28:34] a very

[00:28:35] different, probably

[00:28:36] much more violent and, you know, your face would have

[00:28:40] tattoos all over them.

[00:28:41] And, uh, you know,

[00:28:43] you would,

[00:28:44] you would be, uh,

[00:28:46] probably a version of you that

[00:28:49] this version of you probably wouldn't like very much.

[00:28:53] But

[00:28:53] again,

[00:28:53] we

[00:28:53] don't choose

[00:28:55] the person

[00:28:56] that we've become. Now we can wake

[00:28:58] up and get off autopilot more.

[00:29:00] We, we, we

[00:29:01] have some say in in who we can become.

[00:29:05] So when you, when you

[00:29:09] have this difficult person at work,

[00:29:12] being able

[00:29:13] to see them with

[00:29:14] compassion so that

[00:29:16] when you see them It's not the

[00:29:18] threat

[00:29:19] system.

[00:29:19] You're not getting,

[00:29:20] getting dumped with cortisol

[00:29:23] day in, day out around this

[00:29:26] person, but you're able to activate,

[00:29:30] other feelings that are

[00:29:32] going to be, uh, come with less suffering and they'll be more adaptive for you.

[00:29:38] Ross: Really, really powerful takeaway, Eric. I'm sure we can all think about that, that person. And frankly, whether it's, whether it's in work, but also out of work as well, could be family members.

[00:29:49] Eric: That's right. Yeah. Or

[00:29:51] could be the person that cuts, cuts you off in traffic.

[00:29:54] Ross: Eric, thank you so much for joining us on PeopleSoup. I really appreciate your [00:30:00] vulnerability, your generosity in sharing what you've shared and your, your wisdom. Thank you.

[00:30:04] so much.

[00:30:06] Eric: Ross, thank you for having

[00:30:07] me here. It's always, uh, nice to talk to you.

[00:30:10] Ross: That's it, folks. The second part of my chat with Eric in the bag. Thanks to Eric for being such a generous and open guest. I remember to check out his book, the Mindful Freakout. You'll find the show notes for this episode at People Soup Captivate fm or wherever you get your podcasts. If you like this episode, we'd love it if you told us why.

[00:30:33] You can email me at people soup dot pod@gmail.com on Twitter. We're at Ross McCoach on Instagram at people dot soup and on Facebook at people soup pod. folks. You can help me reach more people with a special people soup ingredients, stuff that could be really useful for them in work and life.

[00:30:52] So please do share, subscribe, rate and review. Thanks to Andy Glenn for his spoon magic and Alex Engelberg for his vocals.

[00:31:00] But most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves, pea supers, and bye for now.

[00:31:05] I, have no immediate plans to come to California, but if I do, I'll certainly let you know. to show you

[00:31:12] more of Seville.

[00:31:14] Eric: Yeah, No, it, it, uh,

[00:31:16] yeah, I think.

[00:31:17] that's something we, we, we have to,

[00:31:19] you know, have a pint and sit in a pub and

[00:31:23] talk about how great she was.