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Matt Edmundson: Well, hello and
welcome to the eCommerce podcast

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with me, your host, Matt Edmundson.

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The eCommerce podcast is all about
helping you deliver eCommerce wow.

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And to help us do just that, I am chatting
with today's guest, Ryan Flannagan from

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Nuanced Media about grow your business
with growth driven advertising on Amazon.

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Yes, That is actually
as sexy as it sounds.

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So we are gonna get into that.

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But before I jump into that, uh,
with Ryan, uh, let me suggest

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a few other e-commerce podcast
episodes that I think you'll enjoy

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listening to around this whole topic.

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Uh, there's five steps for..

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I need to start that sentence again.

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Five Steps for successful Amazon branding
with Drew Morgans, who's a top bloke,

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and also understanding growth hacking
for your business with Chris Raven.

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You can find these and our entire
archive of episodes on our website,

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for free @ecommercepodcast.net.

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Now this episode is brought to you
by the eCommerce cohort, uh, which is

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basically there to help you deliver
eCommerce wow to your customers.

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Ryan, I'm sure you've met over the
years, uh, folks who have got stuck

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with their eCommerce website or
they've got siloed just working into

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one or two areas of their business.

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And miss the big picture.

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Well, I was the same, exactly the same.

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Uh, I nearly lost my entire
business as a result of it.

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So the eCommerce cohort is here
to solve that particular problem.

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Yes, it is.

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It is like, it's a lightweight,
uh, membership group.

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Kind of works similar to a mastermind,
uh, but it's kinda like you get involved,

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you do stuff, you work together and
it covers all the areas of eCommerce

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to stop you getting siloed, stop
you losing sight of the big picture.

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It's just a great thing to get involved
with if you are involved with eCommerce.

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If you've got any questions or you wanna
know more, checkout ecommercecohort.com or

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you can email me matt@ecommercepodcast.net
with any questions cuz I think

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it's definitely worth checking
out if you are in eCommerce.

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So all of that said, let's get
in today's topic with Ryan, who

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is the CEO of Nuanced Media.

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He has spent more than 15 years
in eCommerce, uh, multichannel

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digital marketing, and third part,
third party marketing places.

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He's worked with hundreds of companies
to establish best practices, focusing

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on the 20% that produces 80% of the
revenue, the pay Pareto principle.

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Now, Ryan is passionate, uh, a
passionate thought leader in eCommerce.

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He has been interviewed and
quoted by the who's who, Buzzfeed,

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Modern Retail and many others.

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So to crown off his whole life's
work and achievements, he thought

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the one thing I need to do now is
appear on the eCommerce podcast.

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Uh, Ryan, thank you so
much for joining us.

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Great that you are here bud.

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Ryan Flannagan: Thanks Matt.

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My bucket list is now complete
or will be in about an hour.

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Matt Edmundson: That's exactly it.

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Right?

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That's exactly it.

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Which is just fantastic.

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Oh, it's great that you are here.

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Now at Nuanced Media, right?

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We talked about that in the bio.

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Uh, what, Tell me about Nuanced Media.

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What is it?

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Ryan Flannagan: Sure.

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Nuanced media's a boutique agency.

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We've sold hundreds of millions
online for our clients.

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We've been around about 12 years.

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But really what we do that I think
is a little bit different than the

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rest, is we basically won't work
with you unless we can win for you.

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We do analysis of anybody we bring in.

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We don't just bring in anybody on that.

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Mm-hmm.

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. And it's really about more value
driven based and helping people be

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successful on the Amazon platform.

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Um, and then we also help people
with kind of multichannel on the

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Shopify side of those things.

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But along with that, um, if we aren't
the good fit for you and we're not the

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best fit for everybody, uh, we actually
have a referral partner group that we

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can refer out and find you the right
fit for where you are in your business

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right now to, to help you be successful.

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Um, big fan of win-wins, this life
is too short not to help people win.

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Yeah.

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Um, and that's really what
we focus on at Nuanced Media.

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Matt Edmundson: Fantastic.

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And so I like that.

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Uh, we won't work with you
if we can't win with you.

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I think it's a great phrase.

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Um, it's, And have you found that you,
the more successful you've got, nuanced

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media's got, and you've grown, you can
start to be a lot more Choosy is the

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wrong phrase, but Do you know what I mean?

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You can, you can start to say
to clients, Actually, we're

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gonna be a good fit for you.

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We're not gonna be a good fit for
you cuz you've not got that where's

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payroll coming from this month?

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Fear hanging over your head.

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Ryan Flannagan: There's that point.

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But there's also in my gauge,
um, sometimes a lack of

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expectation setting for people.

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You know, everybody, you see
the YouTube ads all the time.

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You see the Facebook ads, Somebody
in a highrise talking about how

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they made $5 million in two weeks
doing this type of thing, $5.

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Um, and that's just not the reality.

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Right.

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And you need to have real conversations
with people before you engage in maybe

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a 50, $200,000 engagement to say, if
you're going to launch this project

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or you're going to do this thing,
this is what it's really gonna cost.

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This is the ad spend.

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It's a six month timeline to get there.

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You need to get reviews,
you need to do these things.

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And we find that we have a lot more
long-term relationships, and that's

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what we're really in for is long-term.

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Mm-hmm.

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good relationships with people, um, by
setting those expectations and being

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upfront about 'em from the get-go.

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Yeah.

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And if you don't do that, you're
just not doing people justice.

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Right?

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Yeah.

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Um, and that's hard to sleep at night.

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So that's why we try to avoid doing that.

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Matt Edmundson: Yeah, I like that.

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And there's an integrity
about it, isn't there?

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And um, and actually, ultimately, I think
it makes your business more successful

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because you're, you know, you are, you
are, you're picking clients and projects

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that actually that you can win for them.

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And conversely, they're gonna win for you.

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And so, You know that, I remember
when we were starting out years

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ago, and maybe you've done
this, maybe you haven't, Right?

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Especially with agency, where you just
say yes to everything and everybody,

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cuz you just need to get started.

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Uh, and you say yes to people that you
know full well, that you shouldn't because

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you know they're gonna be a royal pain in
the backside, but you kind of, you still

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do it because you need to make payroll.

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I, I can only think of one client that we
said no to in the early days and that's

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cuz he wanted us to do a porn website.

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And I was like, Dude, I've got, I've got
a set of standards that I'm not prepared.

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Do you know what I mean?

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Uh, but, but other than that, and we
found actually the, as soon as we started,

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uh, weeding out clients and saying no to
clients, life became a lot easier because

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you could spot the ones that wanted.

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You know, the project for the least
amount of money, but they were gonna

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give you the most amount of hassle.

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Right?

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Ryan Flannagan: Right.

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Yep.

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And that, or gain into things
that you actually don't do.

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Mm-hmm.

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and trying to do that for a client.

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Right.

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And then no one's happy
at the end of the day.

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So it's two parts.

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It's a) making sure that you can
be successful for a client by right

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Projections by right models, and having
the conversation like, Hey, it's a $50,000

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gamble and it's a 50-50 shot here, right?

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Mm-hmm.

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, like, what does that look like?

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Um, and we don't really know the
data until we get into it either.

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Um, as well as this is what we do very
well, and if you need social media

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advertising or something like that,
we don't actually do that, but we do

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have partners that we work with that
can help you, and then we can help

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manage that relationship as well.

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Mm-hmm., And that's, that's pretty
valuable too because unfortunately, and

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Nuanced Media is a full service agency..

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Um, but with that, we're full service
on the Amazon and kind of Shopify

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platforms, but we don't play in those
other areas as much as we used to.

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Yeah.

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Um, because we weren't honestly
doing it as well as we wanted to.

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Yeah.

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Um, so by managing that relationship,
by speaking upfront about what you do

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and what you don't do, and then having
the network where you can help people,

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even if you're not going to be a good
fit for them, uh, I find that everybody

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comes out significantly happier.

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Um, and you can see our reviews on
Clutch and all these type of things, and

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it's worked very well for us by kind of
taking more of that, uh, ethical stance.

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And just at the end of the day,
how do you live a good life?

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How do you win?

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How do you do that with everybody?

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Right?

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Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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No, it's, it's brilliant.

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Absolutely.

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And so over the years, I'm guessing
as Nuanced Media's been going on,

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you've kind of, you've discovered
your niche, your talents, you know

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what you're going to be good at, you
know what you need to stop doing.

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Um, I always had a business coach who,
um, who asked me the, you know, those

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questions, What are you gonna do more of,
get rid of, and what you gonna do less of?

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And it's, as you grow
mature, you figure that out.

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So one of the things that you guys
have settled into is this whole area

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on Amazon and what you call growth
driven, uh, advertising for Amazon.

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What do you mean by that phrase?

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And what, and then let's get into what,
what you've sort of discovered there.

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Ryan Flannagan: Yeah.

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So what we're seeing, I'm going to
take a step back and talk about what

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we're seeing on Amazon in general,
compared to, you know, during Covid or

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before that or any of the time period.

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When you look at the journey of
Amazon, Amazon's been really growing at

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exponential rate for a very long time.

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Yeah, right.

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Uh, five years ago you could throw up a
picture and put up some words, uh, words.

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You could put up some, uh, information
and really start selling right

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off the bat and make millions of
dollars and grow quickly from that.

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But that's not the same anymore On Amazon,
we're seeing, uh, again, more and more

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competitive on a weekly basis on this.

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You're seeing, uh, more
aggressive ad spend.

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You're seeing basically a
maturation of the market.

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Um, if you look at the bell curve,
I think we're, you know, still

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going on the upside, but we're kind
of at this level that things are

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just getting more competitive and
how do you start managing that.

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Yeah.

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Um, and essentially the old method of
just managing pay per click and not

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looking at data or segments or any
of these type of things is just not

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doing it, uh, for clients in general.

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The other thing that we see on Amazon is,
and we work with a number of different

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catalogs and clients that way, but we
typically see the Pareto principle, as you

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were talking about earlier, but on Amazon,
we call it kind of, um, on steroids.

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So the Pareto principle 20% makes
80% of your revenue on Amazon.

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Sometimes we see like 2% of your
catalog is making 98% of your revenue.

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Oh, wow.

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It's, it's just really insane.

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You'll see a SKU or Asin making, you
know, um, a hundred thousand dollars

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a month or, or more than that, uh,
compared to the rest of the catalog.

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That's why I'm making 50,000.

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Right.

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So what we need to do in that
level is take our efforts and

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make sure that we do not lose that
competitive advantage on the, the

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ASINs that we're really winning on.

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Mm-hmm um, and when you look at that,
uh, it comes down to a few different

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things, but the first thing is, uh,
setting up a segment analysis on this.

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So one thing that's been hard
to gauge on Amazon, and we

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found this extremely valuable.

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How is the market performing
compared to how it used to perform?

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So when looking at your listing,
we actually do analysis and take

229
00:11:36,195 --> 00:11:39,795
a, the top roughly hundred ASINs
that are similar to your product.

230
00:11:39,845 --> 00:11:40,455
Mm-hmm.

231
00:11:40,535 --> 00:11:42,255
, we're not talking about
the beauty catalog.

232
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If we're looking at lip
liner or something like that.

233
00:11:45,045 --> 00:11:49,125
We're talking about very tight
competitive margins on who are these

234
00:11:49,125 --> 00:11:54,915
people who are lip liners that have sold
over $500 a month, that have over 300

235
00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:57,135
reviews that are kind of in this space.

236
00:11:57,165 --> 00:11:57,645
Right.

237
00:11:58,095 --> 00:12:01,935
Um, and then you look at on a
monthly basis of how you grew

238
00:12:01,935 --> 00:12:03,165
compared to your competitors.

239
00:12:03,170 --> 00:12:03,375
Mm-hmm.

240
00:12:03,795 --> 00:12:08,445
. Now the important thing of looking
at that is if your market's up

241
00:12:08,445 --> 00:12:12,165
a hundred percent, you could be
celebrating, you know, looking at,

242
00:12:12,165 --> 00:12:15,135
hey, we're up a hundred percent month
over month, but then you look at the

243
00:12:15,135 --> 00:12:17,475
segment and the segment's up 300%.

244
00:12:17,775 --> 00:12:17,895
Mm-hmm.

245
00:12:18,375 --> 00:12:20,955
, well then you're actually
losing market share overall.

246
00:12:21,175 --> 00:12:21,555
Hmm.

247
00:12:21,635 --> 00:12:26,010
Um, and on the vice versa, like if you're
down 15%, and we've had this right when

248
00:12:26,010 --> 00:12:27,900
some clients were like, Hey, we're down.

249
00:12:27,930 --> 00:12:29,010
What's going on?

250
00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:30,600
You guys aren't doing your job?

251
00:12:30,605 --> 00:12:31,770
Or, or what's happening?

252
00:12:32,220 --> 00:12:35,130
And then we actually look at that
and the market's actually down 30%.

253
00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:35,760
Mm-hmm.

254
00:12:36,270 --> 00:12:36,540
, right?

255
00:12:36,540 --> 00:12:40,290
So you have to really establish that,
what I like to call kind of a control

256
00:12:40,290 --> 00:12:44,100
group, to find out where you're doing,
how you're doing on the marketplace,

257
00:12:44,310 --> 00:12:47,910
and be able to have that real
conversation of what's going on and how

258
00:12:47,910 --> 00:12:49,530
do we position ourselves about that.

259
00:12:50,100 --> 00:12:54,569
Now, once you have that established,
it really comes into what we like

260
00:12:54,569 --> 00:13:00,540
to call more data driven, uh,
advertising, and really holistically

261
00:13:00,545 --> 00:13:01,560
looking at your listings.

262
00:13:01,560 --> 00:13:06,060
So this is a age old concept
that we've been talking about.

263
00:13:06,435 --> 00:13:08,295
Google pay per click and
these type of things.

264
00:13:08,295 --> 00:13:12,314
If you're running Google Shopping
ads and somebody clicks on there

265
00:13:12,314 --> 00:13:15,495
and they come to the website and it
takes five seconds to load, you're

266
00:13:15,495 --> 00:13:17,535
not gonna make as many sales, right?

267
00:13:17,540 --> 00:13:17,895
Mm-hmm.

268
00:13:18,375 --> 00:13:22,305
, and you kind of see that, and people
take that for granted a little bit on the

269
00:13:22,305 --> 00:13:27,645
Amazon platform because it is all kind of
templated and systematic at those levels.

270
00:13:27,650 --> 00:13:27,855
Mm-hmm.

271
00:13:27,935 --> 00:13:28,015
true.

272
00:13:28,635 --> 00:13:35,115
But what we've seen is kind of twofold
is one, split testing, basically your

273
00:13:35,115 --> 00:13:39,795
title of your listing, your main image,
your a plus content, and you actually

274
00:13:39,795 --> 00:13:44,145
have the capabilities go in there and
split test those things on Amazon to

275
00:13:44,150 --> 00:13:46,365
really increase your overall results.

276
00:13:46,665 --> 00:13:49,455
The other side of this is when
you're running your pay per click

277
00:13:49,455 --> 00:13:54,885
campaigns and doing those things,
you'll find words, you know, phrases

278
00:13:55,035 --> 00:13:56,535
that convert better than others.

279
00:13:56,625 --> 00:13:56,745
Mm-hmm.

280
00:13:57,105 --> 00:14:00,345
. And what we do on that is we find
those keywords that are really

281
00:14:00,350 --> 00:14:03,705
converting and then integrate them
back into the text of the listing.

282
00:14:03,975 --> 00:14:04,465
Okay.

283
00:14:04,470 --> 00:14:07,755
Because then you can organically rank
higher for those and they have a higher

284
00:14:07,755 --> 00:14:11,895
conversion rate, which will drive more
sales, which will take the flywheel off

285
00:14:11,895 --> 00:14:13,425
and really start growing on those things.

286
00:14:13,815 --> 00:14:16,695
So we've gotten some pretty
interesting results and I can

287
00:14:16,695 --> 00:14:17,745
walk you through some of those.

288
00:14:17,745 --> 00:14:21,345
But that's really kind of the concept
of growth driven advertising is don't

289
00:14:21,350 --> 00:14:24,645
treat your full catalog the exact
same because it's not the full saying.

290
00:14:25,425 --> 00:14:29,505
You know, look at your hero listings,
the one that you're making really, really

291
00:14:29,505 --> 00:14:34,215
strong, uh, return on investment on, and
then have a real conversation of how do

292
00:14:34,215 --> 00:14:35,805
we do this better than everybody else?

293
00:14:35,810 --> 00:14:39,915
And a lot the time needed to do
that because they are your hero

294
00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:43,575
ones and we're seeing conquesting
coming in all the time and you really

295
00:14:43,575 --> 00:14:45,015
don't wanna lose your position.

296
00:14:45,495 --> 00:14:50,040
But also we see by coming in and doing
this really right for listings that

297
00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:53,910
already have a good sales velocity
we can sometimes do and 3x those.

298
00:14:53,915 --> 00:14:54,300
Yeah.

299
00:14:54,420 --> 00:14:56,400
Uh, by doing that, depending
on the opportunity.

300
00:14:57,599 --> 00:15:02,040
Matt Edmundson: So, uh, there's just a
lot of common sense there, isn't there?

301
00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:06,839
And it's just that kind of, uh, that
kind of idea, which I, I think so

302
00:15:06,839 --> 00:15:08,069
often we just don't think about.

303
00:15:08,069 --> 00:15:10,230
And that's actually, we've
got a product here doing well,

304
00:15:10,650 --> 00:15:12,030
how can we make it do better?

305
00:15:12,180 --> 00:15:16,620
And, and so you're starting off with
this Pareto principle, and actually this

306
00:15:16,620 --> 00:15:19,829
applies not just on Amazon, but I would
say in the e-commerce space, you can look

307
00:15:19,829 --> 00:15:27,329
at your website catalog or your, um, uh,
SKUs or ASINs as Amazon like to call them.

308
00:15:27,329 --> 00:15:27,689
You know what?

309
00:15:28,110 --> 00:15:29,170
Basically keep product listing.

310
00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:32,939
Um, and you can see what's performing well
and you're like, How do we improve this?

311
00:15:32,980 --> 00:15:35,550
What, what you said, Ryan, that I
liked, there's two things that I

312
00:15:35,550 --> 00:15:37,110
wanna dig into a little bit, if I may.

313
00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:45,000
Um, one was the segment analysis and
actually just checking your, um,  checking

314
00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:50,580
your growth against what's going on in
your segment, how do you find that data?

315
00:15:50,610 --> 00:15:58,740
So if I sell to use your example, lip
gloss, how do I find the, um, the other

316
00:15:58,740 --> 00:16:02,940
people in that segment who are also
selling lip gloss that are doing over

317
00:16:02,940 --> 00:16:07,380
500 a month and have more than 300
reviews or whatever the criteria is.

318
00:16:07,950 --> 00:16:11,790
Um, how is, is that something that
Amazon quickly and easily gives you?

319
00:16:11,790 --> 00:16:13,920
Is there some software
that I need to do that?

320
00:16:14,130 --> 00:16:17,190
Is there some voodoo magic
that I need to partake in?

321
00:16:17,190 --> 00:16:18,090
What, how does it work?

322
00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:19,040
Ryan Flannagan: Right.

323
00:16:19,250 --> 00:16:23,940
So what we do on this is we
use a number of third party

324
00:16:23,970 --> 00:16:25,410
softwares to do these analysis.

325
00:16:25,410 --> 00:16:30,870
Some of these costs, um, over 6 figures a
year to be able to get the data, do the,

326
00:16:30,930 --> 00:16:32,670
do the analysis, and do those things.

327
00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:38,100
Um, unfortunately, Amazon, uh,
while it is opening up more and more

328
00:16:38,130 --> 00:16:42,580
data on a quarterly basis of this
level, historically, has been pretty

329
00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:44,535
close to the chest on these things.

330
00:16:44,535 --> 00:16:44,925
Right?

331
00:16:45,315 --> 00:16:50,385
So what we use is a number of different
software suites to basically pull

332
00:16:50,385 --> 00:16:55,605
this in in our software stack so
we can test, review, launch, uh,

333
00:16:55,635 --> 00:16:57,435
build out all these type of things.

334
00:16:57,525 --> 00:16:57,615
Mm-hmm.

335
00:16:57,855 --> 00:17:00,735
, uh, including keyword tracking it
and a variety of things like that.

336
00:17:00,740 --> 00:17:05,055
So that's part of the secret sauce
is the upfront investment of being

337
00:17:05,055 --> 00:17:09,645
able to get to the, the software so
you can do the analysis to run those.

338
00:17:09,944 --> 00:17:14,625
Now on the other side, if you're looking
at some of the a plus, uh, split testing,

339
00:17:14,984 --> 00:17:19,125
uh, or just split testing in general on
Amazon, if you're a brand registered,

340
00:17:19,484 --> 00:17:27,255
um, on the platform, and uh, you can
typically go into Amazon experiments there

341
00:17:27,345 --> 00:17:30,705
and you can run some of these experiments
yourself on the back end as well.

342
00:17:30,765 --> 00:17:30,855
Mm-hmm.

343
00:17:31,260 --> 00:17:32,505
and those have been really helpful.

344
00:17:32,505 --> 00:17:36,255
That's something that Amazon
launched three to six months ago,

345
00:17:36,260 --> 00:17:37,515
and that's kind of relatively new.

346
00:17:39,255 --> 00:17:40,695
Matt Edmundson: So that's
called Amazon experiments?

347
00:17:41,250 --> 00:17:41,640
Ryan Flannagan: Yeah.

348
00:17:41,730 --> 00:17:42,000
Yep.

349
00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:42,510
Matt Edmundson: Okay.

350
00:17:43,110 --> 00:17:48,390
So then the, uh, so you find this
information out using the, the software

351
00:17:48,390 --> 00:17:51,270
stack, which is probably realistically
where you're gonna need to go speak

352
00:17:51,270 --> 00:17:53,970
to an agency because you're not,
unless you're gonna go and spend crazy

353
00:17:53,970 --> 00:17:56,520
money on getting the software and
figuring it out, why would you do that?

354
00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:56,820
Right?

355
00:17:57,450 --> 00:18:03,150
Um, you, you figured out your, um, your
segment, you know what's going on there.

356
00:18:03,150 --> 00:18:06,990
So you're not, you are measuring yourself
against how you are performing month

357
00:18:06,990 --> 00:18:08,280
on month, week on week, whatever it is.

358
00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:11,910
But you're measuring yourself against how
your competitors are performing, which I

359
00:18:11,910 --> 00:18:13,740
think is super important, Like you say.

360
00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:25,110
Um, what are some of the things that
you, So to the example, I'm selling

361
00:18:25,110 --> 00:18:28,140
a hundred percent more so I'm happy,
but then I realize the industry

362
00:18:28,140 --> 00:18:30,240
or the segment is grown by 300%.

363
00:18:30,630 --> 00:18:32,460
So now I'm in full on panic mode.

364
00:18:32,820 --> 00:18:36,420
Uh, what are some of the things that
I need to sort of instantly think

365
00:18:36,420 --> 00:18:37,980
about here and go, hang on a minute.

366
00:18:39,375 --> 00:18:40,485
I need to look at this.

367
00:18:40,485 --> 00:18:43,995
So you've mentioned, for example,
split testing your a plus content,

368
00:18:44,085 --> 00:18:46,665
uh, looking at keywords that convert.

369
00:18:46,935 --> 00:18:51,045
But what are some of the maybe
more obvious things that um, I

370
00:18:51,050 --> 00:18:54,075
also need to look at if I'm not
using an agency like yourself?

371
00:18:54,075 --> 00:18:55,965
Where, where do, where do a
lot of people get it wrong?

372
00:18:56,395 --> 00:18:56,885
Ryan Flannagan: Yeah.

373
00:18:56,895 --> 00:19:01,815
So it's a, not really tracking
the conversion data, but then

374
00:19:02,415 --> 00:19:05,175
not being aggressive enough,
particularly with the ad spend.

375
00:19:05,180 --> 00:19:09,915
So where Amazon's significantly
different and it's ironic, but we, we

376
00:19:09,915 --> 00:19:13,425
find other agencies talking about a
cost all the time and talking about

377
00:19:13,425 --> 00:19:15,255
lowering aCos and things like that.

378
00:19:15,285 --> 00:19:20,065
And that's great cuz if I advertise
on your brand, I can get a great aCos.

379
00:19:20,555 --> 00:19:20,745
Right.

380
00:19:20,745 --> 00:19:22,230
It doesn't mean you're
going to grow at all.

381
00:19:22,260 --> 00:19:25,350
It means you're defending your brand,
but it doesn't mean much more than that.

382
00:19:25,650 --> 00:19:25,800
Mm-hmm.

383
00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:29,790
What you really need to look
at on the Amazon platform is,

384
00:19:29,850 --> 00:19:31,170
uh, what we call your taCos.

385
00:19:31,170 --> 00:19:34,920
So just quickly, I'm pretty sure
your, your whole audience understands

386
00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:38,190
what aCos and taCos are, but I'll,
I'll give a quick explanation.

387
00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:40,320
So, advertising, cost of sale.

388
00:19:40,325 --> 00:19:40,870
Mm-hmm.

389
00:19:40,950 --> 00:19:42,570
is what you have on that.

390
00:19:42,570 --> 00:19:46,500
So that's typically when you look
at Row Ads on Facebook ads or

391
00:19:46,500 --> 00:19:50,100
Google or anything like that, that's
normally what you look at, right?

392
00:19:50,105 --> 00:19:50,190
Mm-hmm.

393
00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:53,760
, um, similar kind of terms that way.

394
00:19:53,760 --> 00:20:00,990
So I, I spend $1, I, uh, sell $4 worth
at the four, 400% roll offs, right?

395
00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:01,290
Mm-hmm.

396
00:20:01,620 --> 00:20:04,770
or 4X, um, on Amazon.

397
00:20:04,770 --> 00:20:09,600
What you wanna look at is not just
your aCos, because the more sales

398
00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:13,600
you make on Amazon, the higher
you organically rank , right?

399
00:20:13,625 --> 00:20:13,890
Mm-hmm.

400
00:20:13,975 --> 00:20:17,340
. So unlike Google, Google doesn't
care if you're making a million

401
00:20:17,340 --> 00:20:19,590
sales a day or two sales a day.

402
00:20:19,590 --> 00:20:21,600
It's about backlinks and
some of these things.

403
00:20:22,020 --> 00:20:24,750
Amazon says, Hey, you're making sales.

404
00:20:24,750 --> 00:20:26,520
We take a commission on everything.

405
00:20:26,790 --> 00:20:29,250
So if you're making more sales,
we're gonna rank you higher

406
00:20:29,250 --> 00:20:30,450
cuz you got something going on.

407
00:20:30,455 --> 00:20:30,730
Mm-hmm.

408
00:20:31,140 --> 00:20:34,610
. So when you look at that, you need
to really look at your advertising

409
00:20:34,615 --> 00:20:38,760
spend, the organic sales that
you made on the platform, okay?

410
00:20:38,765 --> 00:20:39,030
Right.

411
00:20:39,380 --> 00:20:42,840
So with that, it's the total sales
that you've made on the platform,

412
00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:45,930
not just advertising sales, and not
just organic, but the total sales.

413
00:20:46,170 --> 00:20:50,550
So in the case that we've said before,
sometimes you'll be spending, let's say

414
00:20:50,580 --> 00:20:57,630
$30,000 a month and you'll be making a,
let's say, um, $300,000 a month organic.

415
00:20:58,245 --> 00:21:01,635
Well, what that is is that's
a 10 return on ad spend.

416
00:21:01,635 --> 00:21:03,525
Total return on ad spend on the platform.

417
00:21:03,525 --> 00:21:03,885
Mm-hmm.

418
00:21:03,965 --> 00:21:06,705
, I spent 30,000 and I made 300,000.

419
00:21:06,765 --> 00:21:06,975
Mm-hmm.

420
00:21:07,215 --> 00:21:13,215
overall compared to maybe your pay per
click is only giving you 60,000 back.

421
00:21:13,425 --> 00:21:13,515
Mm-hmm.

422
00:21:13,754 --> 00:21:19,004
, so you're like, Oh, I'm spending
30, I'm making a 2x on the aCos side

423
00:21:19,004 --> 00:21:22,565
of that, or it's a .50, uh, aCos.

424
00:21:22,935 --> 00:21:23,985
That's not the full picture.

425
00:21:23,990 --> 00:21:27,254
You need to look at the 10 x you're
making on the platform and maybe

426
00:21:27,254 --> 00:21:29,135
even get more aggressive on the aCos.

427
00:21:30,705 --> 00:21:31,785
Matt Edmundson: That's really fascinating.

428
00:21:31,785 --> 00:21:35,235
So the more you spend, the more you're
gonna rank organically, which comes

429
00:21:35,235 --> 00:21:38,895
down or comes back to the point you, you
raised a few minutes ago that actually

430
00:21:38,895 --> 00:21:43,725
understanding the keywords that then
convert, uh, in your paid advertising

431
00:21:43,754 --> 00:21:48,615
should be added then to your copy, so
you start to rank organically with those.

432
00:21:48,615 --> 00:21:50,595
So it, this becomes a whole
big learning environment.

433
00:21:51,510 --> 00:21:51,750
Ryan Flannagan: Right.

434
00:21:51,750 --> 00:21:55,700
Well, and it's, the more you sell, the
more you're gonna rank organically, right?

435
00:21:55,700 --> 00:21:55,980
Mm-hmm..

436
00:21:56,064 --> 00:21:58,200
So spend is definitely
a component with that.

437
00:21:58,200 --> 00:21:58,290
Mm-hmm.

438
00:21:58,530 --> 00:22:01,500
, But then again, you don't wanna
be spending on things that

439
00:22:01,504 --> 00:22:02,760
you're never gonna rank for

440
00:22:02,879 --> 00:22:03,149
Matt Edmundson: Sure.

441
00:22:03,149 --> 00:22:03,820
However, So yeah.

442
00:22:03,820 --> 00:22:04,379
I got, Yeah, yeah.

443
00:22:04,470 --> 00:22:04,679
Okay.

444
00:22:04,679 --> 00:22:05,189
I got that wrong.

445
00:22:05,220 --> 00:22:05,540
Sure.

446
00:22:05,540 --> 00:22:05,780
Yeah.

447
00:22:05,784 --> 00:22:05,909
Yeah.

448
00:22:06,270 --> 00:22:09,330
So the more you sell the, the more
you, you're gonna rank organically.

449
00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:14,820
So is this a case of then with Amazon,
there's an old saying, I wish I could

450
00:22:14,820 --> 00:22:16,770
remember who said it, I genuinely can't.

451
00:22:17,220 --> 00:22:20,460
Uh, but I've got this phrase in the back
of my head that those that can spend

452
00:22:20,465 --> 00:22:22,800
the most to acquire the customer win.

453
00:22:23,580 --> 00:22:29,010
Um, is it a case of that
being true with Amazon?

454
00:22:29,010 --> 00:22:32,340
That actually you've gotta go into it
with your eyes open a little bit, which

455
00:22:32,345 --> 00:22:35,340
says, I've, I've got to be prepared
to spend on customer acquisition.

456
00:22:36,780 --> 00:22:38,129
Ryan Flannagan: Um, yes and no.

457
00:22:38,135 --> 00:22:41,139
So Amazon looks at conversion
rate with everything too.

458
00:22:41,139 --> 00:22:41,620
Mm-hmm..

459
00:22:41,750 --> 00:22:46,649
So if you are spending too much
and you're not making sales, well,

460
00:22:46,649 --> 00:22:48,220
they're gonna stop serving your ads.

461
00:22:48,690 --> 00:22:49,050
Right.

462
00:22:49,055 --> 00:22:53,880
So again, Amazon's really down to what
gets us the most money back as mm-hmm.

463
00:22:54,120 --> 00:22:55,650
, you know, our overall hypothesis.

464
00:22:55,710 --> 00:22:58,950
So if somebody's spending a ton
of money but the sales aren't

465
00:22:58,950 --> 00:23:02,490
converting, then you're going to
start, have to spend more on those ads.

466
00:23:02,610 --> 00:23:02,820
Mm-hmm.

467
00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:05,940
, um, or you're not gonna rank
as well, you're not gonna be

468
00:23:05,940 --> 00:23:07,470
sticky as far as a rank level.

469
00:23:07,890 --> 00:23:11,970
So the major components you have to look
at that when you look at your listing

470
00:23:11,970 --> 00:23:15,690
and optimization for your listing kind of
comes down to a few different components.

471
00:23:15,690 --> 00:23:19,080
One is very controllable, and
that's what you're listing.

472
00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:22,020
And the copy that we have
on your listing are mm-hmm.

473
00:23:22,260 --> 00:23:23,910
, you control that for the most part.

474
00:23:23,910 --> 00:23:24,000
Mm-hmm.

475
00:23:24,300 --> 00:23:25,380
, um, on those things.

476
00:23:25,620 --> 00:23:29,370
The second thing that you need to look
at is your reviews if you don't have or

477
00:23:29,370 --> 00:23:34,650
star reviews and, um, something close
to what's, uh, competing in the market.

478
00:23:35,070 --> 00:23:37,350
Um, then you're gonna have
a hard time doing sales.

479
00:23:37,350 --> 00:23:41,550
And quite frankly, you have to rerun
your pay per click campaigns once you

480
00:23:41,550 --> 00:23:45,060
kinda hit, hit the each tier, right?

481
00:23:45,065 --> 00:23:45,300
Mm-hmm.

482
00:23:45,385 --> 00:23:49,470
. So we say 30 reviews on
average is the first tier.

483
00:23:49,475 --> 00:23:49,700
Mm-hmm.

484
00:23:49,785 --> 00:23:53,310
, you don't wanna be too aggressive on ad
spend until you hit 30 reviews because

485
00:23:53,310 --> 00:23:55,260
no one's going buy you under 30 reviews.

486
00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:55,410
Yeah.

487
00:23:55,415 --> 00:23:58,380
Unless you have great branding off
platform and you know, you're the

488
00:23:58,380 --> 00:24:00,000
next big thing that's coming through.

489
00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:01,050
Right.

490
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:03,570
So that's the, the first step on that.

491
00:24:03,570 --> 00:24:06,450
But then you wanna reanalyze some of
those keywords that may not have been

492
00:24:06,450 --> 00:24:08,550
converting when you hit a hundred reviews.

493
00:24:08,555 --> 00:24:08,780
Mm-hmm.

494
00:24:09,120 --> 00:24:12,580
, because the conversion rate kind
of goes up every tier you hit right

495
00:24:12,580 --> 00:24:13,740
in the closer you get with that.

496
00:24:13,740 --> 00:24:13,980
Right.

497
00:24:13,980 --> 00:24:19,290
So there is kind of a brand or
product journey that you go with every

498
00:24:19,295 --> 00:24:22,650
time as you're kind of escalating
and growing with these things.

499
00:24:22,650 --> 00:24:25,480
And a time to reassess the
data that you're doing to say.

500
00:24:25,780 --> 00:24:28,410
Well, when do we need to do,
integrate these keywords?

501
00:24:28,410 --> 00:24:29,520
When are they converting?

502
00:24:29,820 --> 00:24:32,670
And then when do we need to do
ranking strategy around the keywords?

503
00:24:32,730 --> 00:24:32,970
Mm-hmm.

504
00:24:34,170 --> 00:24:36,960
. 
Matt Edmundson: So, uh, this is,
I guess where, coming back to

505
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:39,840
your sort of growth driven sort
of advertising Amazon, isn't it?

506
00:24:39,845 --> 00:24:43,530
Everything's feeding everything else in
terms of the data and the learning, uh,

507
00:24:43,530 --> 00:24:45,210
and it's sort of constantly going around.

508
00:24:45,210 --> 00:24:49,680
And so, um, as you're learning more, you
are changing the content on your pages as

509
00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:52,649
you're changing the content on your pages,
the conversions going at which makes

510
00:24:52,649 --> 00:24:54,780
your advertisements spend more effective.

511
00:24:54,780 --> 00:24:57,450
And it, it seems to be like
you're creating this almost

512
00:24:57,450 --> 00:24:59,399
upward spiral, this upward vortex.

513
00:24:59,399 --> 00:25:00,780
Have I understood it, right?

514
00:25:01,830 --> 00:25:02,070
Ryan Flannagan: Yeah.

515
00:25:02,070 --> 00:25:03,480
It's the, that's exactly it.

516
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:10,290
So the, the analogy I like to use here
is the vast majority of companies are

517
00:25:10,350 --> 00:25:12,340
working out like we did in the 80s.

518
00:25:12,709 --> 00:25:13,120
Right.

519
00:25:13,120 --> 00:25:17,065
Like remember the eighties you'd
run, you'd do the stuff, you

520
00:25:17,065 --> 00:25:18,435
know, do all that great stuff.

521
00:25:18,435 --> 00:25:21,525
But Rocky was going home
every night and eating pizza.

522
00:25:21,765 --> 00:25:24,645
And Rocky wasn't eating pizza, but we were
all going home and eating pizza and we

523
00:25:24,645 --> 00:25:25,935
weren't really gaining in better shape.

524
00:25:26,265 --> 00:25:26,415
Mm-hmm.

525
00:25:26,655 --> 00:25:27,045
. Right?

526
00:25:27,045 --> 00:25:30,525
So you were kind taking the
one view of your workout plan.

527
00:25:30,555 --> 00:25:33,585
This is how I get, I go to the gym, I
work out, I do these type of things.

528
00:25:33,975 --> 00:25:38,835
But as we've evolved in this, we say,
Hey, diet is kind of important as well.

529
00:25:38,835 --> 00:25:39,645
Mm-hmm, right?

530
00:25:39,995 --> 00:25:43,455
So, and that would be the listing
optimization, the split testing, those

531
00:25:43,455 --> 00:25:45,615
type of things because you're working out.

532
00:25:45,620 --> 00:25:48,915
But if you're eating well and you're
doing protein drinks and you're not eating

533
00:25:48,915 --> 00:25:52,875
pizza every day, then you're actually
going get shape a lot better and be the

534
00:25:52,875 --> 00:25:54,845
best brand out there that you can be.

535
00:25:56,255 --> 00:25:57,420
Matt Edmundson: That's
really, really good.

536
00:25:57,420 --> 00:25:58,830
I like the rocky analogy.

537
00:25:58,950 --> 00:26:02,670
Uh, any, any analogy that includes
Rocky is a, is a winner in my book.

538
00:26:02,700 --> 00:26:03,060
Right?

539
00:26:03,120 --> 00:26:03,690
I'm not gonna lie,

540
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:10,790
Ryan Flannagan: Yeah, I probably
include the music, but don't,

541
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:13,650
Matt Edmundson: Anyway, I
shall stop singing there, dear

542
00:26:13,655 --> 00:26:16,860
listener, because frankly you
don't need that in your life now.

543
00:26:16,890 --> 00:26:19,800
Ryan Flannagan: Well, but that
really comes down to the case of

544
00:26:19,950 --> 00:26:24,630
what is, you know, like we are,
Amazon is evolving market, right?

545
00:26:24,630 --> 00:26:25,710
And it's getting more competitive.

546
00:26:25,710 --> 00:26:27,480
So you have to train harder.

547
00:26:27,485 --> 00:26:31,560
You have to be stronger and you have
to have as much data and analysis

548
00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:34,410
and try different things to beat out
your competitors as much as you can.

549
00:26:34,950 --> 00:26:35,160
Right.

550
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:36,520
And that's what we're really seeing.

551
00:26:37,050 --> 00:26:40,950
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, no, it's, I'm
curious, Ryan, I dunno if you actually

552
00:26:40,950 --> 00:26:42,210
know the answer to this question.

553
00:26:42,300 --> 00:26:48,600
So you, you will have come across,
um, a lot of, uh, a lot of products

554
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,120
that just aren't selling for
whatever reason on Amazon, right?

555
00:26:51,120 --> 00:26:52,530
So it could be the content.

556
00:26:52,530 --> 00:26:53,970
They could be, they've not got reviews.

557
00:26:55,169 --> 00:27:00,209
How much of it is actually
down to the product itself?

558
00:27:00,239 --> 00:27:07,199
Like can you take a rubbish product
on Amazon and, and sell it or is it,

559
00:27:07,830 --> 00:27:10,439
Cuz I'm, I slightly loaded question.

560
00:27:10,439 --> 00:27:14,280
I'm, I'm of the opinion in e-commerce
that's become very complex to do.

561
00:27:14,580 --> 00:27:17,790
It's much easier to win in eCommerce if
you have a product people want to buy in

562
00:27:17,790 --> 00:27:21,510
the first place Do you know what I mean,
that's actually got that kind of demand.

563
00:27:21,590 --> 00:27:21,870
Ryan Flannagan: Yeah.

564
00:27:22,469 --> 00:27:22,830
Yeah.

565
00:27:22,830 --> 00:27:28,439
If you don't have a, a product that
gets reviews, and reviews are a whole

566
00:27:28,439 --> 00:27:30,300
another conversation on Amazon, right.

567
00:27:30,629 --> 00:27:32,459
Um, you're gonna have a
really hard time winning.

568
00:27:32,465 --> 00:27:32,669
Mm-hmm.

569
00:27:32,675 --> 00:27:37,080
If you can't hit keep over or
right around that four star mark

570
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:41,429
or above, um, you know, you might
wanna pivot and look at another

571
00:27:41,435 --> 00:27:43,020
product that, that's essentially it.

572
00:27:43,169 --> 00:27:46,169
Uh, you, you're going be
significantly handicapped on that.

573
00:27:46,199 --> 00:27:52,350
Now if we're talking about the larger
question of brands that have really good

574
00:27:52,350 --> 00:27:57,345
brand and are pushing that way, Um, then
there's another conversation of how Amazon

575
00:27:57,345 --> 00:28:03,545
is actually used, um, a as a legitimacy
test for people when they're purchasing.

576
00:28:04,260 --> 00:28:04,560
Right.

577
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:08,820
So we work with a number of larger brands
that yes, wanna be selling on Amazon,

578
00:28:08,820 --> 00:28:12,300
but that's not their major concept or
what they're really trying to push.

579
00:28:12,540 --> 00:28:15,030
They wanna have the best listings
up that they can, They wanna have

580
00:28:15,030 --> 00:28:18,030
good reviews, but it's really
for testing the litmus test.

581
00:28:18,030 --> 00:28:22,350
And maybe they're a premium product and
they're two times more expensive than

582
00:28:22,350 --> 00:28:24,900
the other lip liner on there, right?

583
00:28:24,930 --> 00:28:28,140
Uh, for example, and they're going
to drive sales on Amazon, but

584
00:28:28,140 --> 00:28:31,710
they're never going to be the,
the biggest winner on mm-hmm.

585
00:28:31,716 --> 00:28:31,980
, right?

586
00:28:31,980 --> 00:28:36,480
So in that case, there is a concept
of getting your listings up, managing

587
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,870
those wells, really doing brand
defense so people aren't conquesting

588
00:28:39,870 --> 00:28:41,340
and stealing your sales from that.

589
00:28:41,670 --> 00:28:44,640
And then choosing your battles
of where you can scale on

590
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:45,750
Amazon and where you cannot.

591
00:28:46,350 --> 00:28:49,605
Um, and that's really kind of
a price premium level because

592
00:28:49,845 --> 00:28:51,975
buyers on Amazon are very elastic.

593
00:28:52,274 --> 00:28:55,095
Meaning that if something's a dollar
less expensive, they're gonna go the

594
00:28:55,095 --> 00:28:56,804
thing that's a dollar less expensive.

595
00:28:56,925 --> 00:28:57,014
Mm-hmm.

596
00:28:57,254 --> 00:29:00,794
, if everything else is equal, similar
amount of reviews, color, scope,

597
00:29:00,794 --> 00:29:02,685
product, those type of things.

598
00:29:02,715 --> 00:29:09,284
But when you have a brand that has, uh,
brand awareness and those that they'll

599
00:29:09,284 --> 00:29:14,145
come to Amazon before purchasing to
check the legitimacy of the brand, and

600
00:29:14,145 --> 00:29:18,225
then maybe they bounce your website and
purchase or then they purchase on Amazon.

601
00:29:18,764 --> 00:29:22,815
So to give you a quick example
of this, um, again, got Facebook

602
00:29:22,820 --> 00:29:25,514
marketing thing, uh, saw a.

603
00:29:27,465 --> 00:29:33,314
Um, a mosquito, uh, thing that
was developed by a 18, uh, 17 year

604
00:29:33,314 --> 00:29:36,675
old in high school and then got 10
millions of dollars of funding and

605
00:29:36,675 --> 00:29:42,074
had different light array and killed
mosquito for three kilometers around it.

606
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:42,314
Mm-hmm.

607
00:29:42,399 --> 00:29:42,804
and so on.

608
00:29:43,185 --> 00:29:44,115
Like, Oh, I need this.

609
00:29:44,115 --> 00:29:44,804
I hate mosquitoes.

610
00:29:44,804 --> 00:29:45,764
Everybody hates mosquitoes.

611
00:29:46,004 --> 00:29:49,425
And then I went up and looked up on
Amazon, it had two and a half stars.

612
00:29:49,995 --> 00:29:51,764
Like, okay, well this is marketing.

613
00:29:52,095 --> 00:29:54,794
This, this is hogwash, I'm not touch it.

614
00:29:54,794 --> 00:29:55,125
Mm-hmm.

615
00:29:55,455 --> 00:29:55,784
. Right.

616
00:29:55,935 --> 00:29:59,205
So there is a place for your Amazon brand.

617
00:29:59,715 --> 00:30:04,095
Even if you're not going to go fully on
Amazon, uh, there is a place for your

618
00:30:04,095 --> 00:30:06,105
Amazon brand on there for legitimacy test.

619
00:30:06,225 --> 00:30:06,284
Yeah.

620
00:30:06,284 --> 00:30:10,845
And we actually have seen really strong
sales for, um, existing brands that have

621
00:30:10,845 --> 00:30:15,135
brand awareness, uh, just by gaining
on the Amazon platform, doing it well,

622
00:30:15,195 --> 00:30:19,395
implementing some of the growth driven
advertising, uh, principles, and then

623
00:30:19,395 --> 00:30:22,995
really having the kind conversation of
this may be just an area that we come

624
00:30:22,995 --> 00:30:24,885
in and do pretty strong defense on this.

625
00:30:25,230 --> 00:30:26,400
And we will make money.

626
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:30,060
This is never gonna be a $10 million
a year product on Amazon because

627
00:30:30,060 --> 00:30:33,060
of the price level, but maybe
it's a $2 million a year product.

628
00:30:33,780 --> 00:30:34,140
Right?

629
00:30:34,140 --> 00:30:36,660
So how does that play and
where do you go on that?

630
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:38,550
Matt Edmundson: That's really interesting.

631
00:30:38,550 --> 00:30:47,100
I, I've often heard it said that if
you, um, if you do Amazon, well, as a

632
00:30:47,100 --> 00:30:51,930
brand, it does grow your organic traffic
to your, excuse me, It does grow the

633
00:30:51,930 --> 00:30:56,310
traffic to your website, your own personal
eCommerce website, which is off Amazon.

634
00:30:56,310 --> 00:30:59,610
That actually, as you grow on
Amazon, your, your eCommerce

635
00:30:59,615 --> 00:31:00,750
business grows on Amazon as well.

636
00:31:00,750 --> 00:31:01,800
Is that your experience?

637
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:02,730
Is that what you found?

638
00:31:03,270 --> 00:31:05,790
Ryan Flannagan: Yeah, it's
again, very holistic, right?

639
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,160
And, and you have some kind
of check boxes with that.

640
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:13,140
Quite frankly, if you're, you know, if
you have a website, you're in a brand and

641
00:31:13,145 --> 00:31:17,340
you're using a Shopify website or any of
these other platforms, typically you're

642
00:31:17,340 --> 00:31:19,230
doing some form of advertising on that.

643
00:31:19,290 --> 00:31:19,380
Mm-hmm.

644
00:31:19,830 --> 00:31:22,110
. And what happens when people
do advertising, because we're

645
00:31:22,110 --> 00:31:25,260
getting more and more inundated
for product advertising, is

646
00:31:25,265 --> 00:31:26,535
they do the legitimacy test.

647
00:31:26,905 --> 00:31:30,060
So they go to Amazon, they see if
they can buy it, cause they trust

648
00:31:30,065 --> 00:31:31,590
Amazon, they trust the return policy.

649
00:31:31,860 --> 00:31:34,200
So we actually see it twofolds as a.

650
00:31:35,100 --> 00:31:37,264
, even if you don't direct anybody
in Amazon, you're gonna start

651
00:31:37,264 --> 00:31:39,514
making brand sales on Amazon
cuz people are going there.

652
00:31:39,575 --> 00:31:40,014
Mm-hmm.

653
00:31:40,100 --> 00:31:44,225
, but also if you are doing things
on Amazon, uh, targeting competitor

654
00:31:44,225 --> 00:31:46,865
conquesting, things like that,
which you can actually do on Amazon

655
00:31:46,865 --> 00:31:49,985
significantly better than any
other platform that I'm aware of.

656
00:31:49,990 --> 00:31:50,295
Mm-hmm.

657
00:31:50,465 --> 00:31:54,725
, Uh, for targeting what your competitors
are doing if people are buying liked you?

658
00:31:54,935 --> 00:31:56,315
Uh, there's a few things.

659
00:31:56,315 --> 00:32:00,815
We have Amazon Demand side platform
and Nuanced Media cuz we are, uh,

660
00:32:00,845 --> 00:32:02,795
working very closely with Amazon.

661
00:32:03,095 --> 00:32:05,495
Typically you have to spend
about $40,000 a month to even

662
00:32:05,495 --> 00:32:06,815
get access to the platform.

663
00:32:07,295 --> 00:32:11,165
Um, but we can offer that to some of our
clients, uh, underneath our umbrella.

664
00:32:11,524 --> 00:32:14,435
Uh, but by doing that you can do
a pretty strong conquesting and

665
00:32:14,435 --> 00:32:17,014
then track the sales that actually
happen on your website as well.

666
00:32:17,375 --> 00:32:20,945
Now all ads go to your listing on Amazon,
but you can track the sales that way too.

667
00:32:21,165 --> 00:32:21,655
Yeah.

668
00:32:21,660 --> 00:32:24,065
So, you know, we don't live in a vacuum.

669
00:32:24,575 --> 00:32:27,305
Um, and a advertising you
do on the platform is going

670
00:32:27,310 --> 00:32:28,745
drive sales to your website.

671
00:32:28,750 --> 00:32:29,055
Mm-hmm.

672
00:32:29,135 --> 00:32:32,675
a uh, advertising you do to your
website is going drive sales to Amazon.

673
00:32:33,030 --> 00:32:33,630
. Mm-hmm.

674
00:32:34,290 --> 00:32:34,470
Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

675
00:32:34,470 --> 00:32:38,460
I remember sitting down with one of
the directors here in the UK of Amazon,

676
00:32:39,420 --> 00:32:41,880
and we were having conversations about
all kinds of weird, wonderful things

677
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:43,200
in their offices down in London.

678
00:32:43,290 --> 00:32:47,850
And one of the things that they
said to me, uh, I can't remember

679
00:32:47,855 --> 00:32:49,860
the number they gave me, I wrote
it down, I should dig it out.

680
00:32:49,860 --> 00:32:53,370
But there was a really high percentage
of people that went to the Amazon

681
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:55,770
website and didn't buy anything.

682
00:32:55,770 --> 00:32:58,380
They just went to check the reviews.

683
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:01,860
And that was, that was, you
know, he used the example of,

684
00:33:01,860 --> 00:33:04,680
you know, you stood in curries or
something and you want to buy a tv.

685
00:33:04,980 --> 00:33:06,330
You don't know if it's any good.

686
00:33:06,335 --> 00:33:09,720
So you're just like, Well, I'm just
gonna go and Amazon that sort of

687
00:33:09,870 --> 00:33:13,290
search on Amazon for that specific
model and I'm gonna read the reviews.

688
00:33:13,290 --> 00:33:16,230
I want to know what people
are saying about that product.

689
00:33:16,290 --> 00:33:17,610
And then I'm gonna make a decision.

690
00:33:17,610 --> 00:33:19,380
Well, do I want to buy it
here and now from the store?

691
00:33:19,380 --> 00:33:22,260
Or is it, is it cheaper
and easier from Amazon?

692
00:33:22,260 --> 00:33:23,010
I don't really know.

693
00:33:23,010 --> 00:33:29,760
But um, , it was a really interesting
concept, uh, that, uh, you know, that

694
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:33,510
Amazon knew this and they knew a lot of
people just went on their site to, to

695
00:33:33,510 --> 00:33:35,370
check out the reviews of products, right?

696
00:33:35,370 --> 00:33:39,480
So like you say, if you are on Amazon,
if you've got a brand, or we found

697
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:44,550
actually as a brand, uh, one of my online
businesses wasn't on Amazon, but people,

698
00:33:44,550 --> 00:33:46,409
our wholesalers had put it on Amazon.

699
00:33:46,709 --> 00:33:50,520
And so I realized that the more I was
spending on paid media to grow our

700
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:52,800
website, the more they were selling.

701
00:33:52,830 --> 00:33:54,060
I'm like, How's that even?

702
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:58,439
And then I realized, aha, they're doing
Amazon, so I'm, I'm in effect putting

703
00:33:58,590 --> 00:34:00,659
money into their pocket, as it were.

704
00:34:01,469 --> 00:34:03,540
Ryan Flannagan: Well, there's,
there's a whole another conversation

705
00:34:03,540 --> 00:34:06,659
there too, because anybody can
sell your products on Amazon.

706
00:34:06,990 --> 00:34:09,659
And if you're not on Amazon,
what listing is stood up?

707
00:34:09,690 --> 00:34:11,670
What value props are they talking about?

708
00:34:11,670 --> 00:34:15,179
Are they doing any reputation
management whatsoever?

709
00:34:15,179 --> 00:34:16,920
Are there are.

710
00:34:17,430 --> 00:34:19,740
Um, things that you need to be aware of.

711
00:34:19,740 --> 00:34:22,710
It's kind like the old social
media conversation that people are

712
00:34:22,710 --> 00:34:24,300
having in the mid two thousands.

713
00:34:24,300 --> 00:34:26,910
Like, should I be on Facebook or not?

714
00:34:26,970 --> 00:34:30,000
And if you're not on there, then people
are going be talking about you anyway.

715
00:34:30,005 --> 00:34:31,440
It's better to be a part
of the conversation.

716
00:34:31,890 --> 00:34:32,610
Yeah, right.

717
00:34:32,970 --> 00:34:36,210
Um, and that was a big conversation with
Twitter back in the day too, particularly

718
00:34:36,215 --> 00:34:37,740
on the customer service side of things.

719
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:42,870
So you will find, and we deal with a
number of brands are preestablished that,

720
00:34:43,110 --> 00:34:48,600
you know, look on Amazon, they're like,
we had no clue that all these images were

721
00:34:48,605 --> 00:34:52,080
up and these listings we're selling and
they're actually saying the wrong things.

722
00:34:52,085 --> 00:34:52,250
Mm-hmm.

723
00:34:52,540 --> 00:34:55,320
, uh, and, uh, elements to that level.

724
00:34:55,590 --> 00:34:58,650
So yeah, you, you almost have to
have Amazon as a brand defense

725
00:34:58,650 --> 00:35:00,240
level and no one likes it, right?

726
00:35:00,245 --> 00:35:00,610
Mm-hmm.

727
00:35:00,735 --> 00:35:05,010
. Um, but it is another thing if you are
an established brand, if you're doing

728
00:35:05,010 --> 00:35:09,270
things, what to do, and quite frankly,
we can run some analyses, find out how

729
00:35:09,270 --> 00:35:12,810
many people are searching for your brand,
those type of things, and say, is it even

730
00:35:12,810 --> 00:35:15,240
viable at this point or is it something
you really should not worry about?

731
00:35:16,700 --> 00:35:20,250
Matt Edmundson: So what would you, uh,
I, I guess in some respects is that I'm

732
00:35:20,250 --> 00:35:23,970
answering my own question here, Ryan, As
I'm thinking it in my head, how long's

733
00:35:23,970 --> 00:35:28,170
a piece of string, but at what point,
where, where is that tipping point?

734
00:35:28,170 --> 00:35:31,710
Where is it that actually it makes
sense for you to, to, to be on Amazon?

735
00:35:31,770 --> 00:35:34,650
That, that sort of the viability,
it's like, Yep, let's do this.

736
00:35:34,650 --> 00:35:35,290
Let's go for it now.

737
00:35:36,419 --> 00:35:40,529
. 
Ryan Flannagan: So again, what we
like to do, and this is kind of going

738
00:35:40,529 --> 00:35:44,580
back to the win-win side, is work
closest to the wallet out, right?

739
00:35:44,580 --> 00:35:46,620
So where's your existing catalog?

740
00:35:46,770 --> 00:35:50,069
What is your existing catalog and what's
doing the most sales on there, right?

741
00:35:50,075 --> 00:35:54,270
So you don't go in there and try to
put up everything just as once, right?

742
00:35:54,569 --> 00:35:58,350
uh, what you need to do is you need
to really target out what are the best

743
00:35:58,350 --> 00:36:02,609
products for you and then decide to
build those out and continue to do that.

744
00:36:02,970 --> 00:36:08,879
But what I would look at is go on Amazon,
depending on uh, your amount of sales.

745
00:36:08,879 --> 00:36:14,759
If you have a product that's doing
over, I'd say 10 to $20,000 of sales

746
00:36:14,759 --> 00:36:17,580
for your website, it's probably time
to really start looking at it cause

747
00:36:17,580 --> 00:36:19,080
you're really starting to grow on that.

748
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:23,490
Um, it could be potentially a
time to look at even beforehand

749
00:36:23,495 --> 00:36:28,725
because, um, Amazon's about 48% of
product search in the United States.

750
00:36:28,785 --> 00:36:28,875
Mm-hmm.

751
00:36:29,115 --> 00:36:31,575
and Google's about 35% of product search.

752
00:36:31,845 --> 00:36:31,904
Okay.

753
00:36:31,904 --> 00:36:36,075
So by just being on Google, you're
actually working on a lower marketplace.

754
00:36:36,165 --> 00:36:36,435
Mm-hmm.

755
00:36:36,740 --> 00:36:41,384
. Um, but go on Amazon and search yourself
and then see who's advertising above

756
00:36:41,384 --> 00:36:44,174
your brand and see if you can live
with them stealing your customers.

757
00:36:44,535 --> 00:36:45,975
Cuz that's what's happening right now.

758
00:36:45,975 --> 00:36:46,455
Yeah.

759
00:36:46,459 --> 00:36:48,345
You're doing advertising.

760
00:36:48,765 --> 00:36:52,395
Uh, people go, Hey I need
this mosquito killer.

761
00:36:52,725 --> 00:36:56,294
Uh, and I go by my brand and the
mosquito killer is a horrible example

762
00:36:56,294 --> 00:36:57,615
because it is a horrible product.

763
00:36:58,125 --> 00:36:59,615
. But I need the lip liner.

764
00:36:59,834 --> 00:36:59,924
Right.

765
00:37:00,285 --> 00:37:03,225
And then you go look up there and
then you see the Lady Gaga lip liner.

766
00:37:03,225 --> 00:37:05,714
Instead you buy the Lady Gaga
one cuz you're not available.

767
00:37:05,955 --> 00:37:06,584
Mm-hmm.

768
00:37:07,064 --> 00:37:07,154
, Right?

769
00:37:07,214 --> 00:37:09,174
Matt Edmundson: It's in, Yeah, it's in, I.

770
00:37:09,945 --> 00:37:15,255
There is a very definite strategy for,
uh, marketers using Instagram, right?

771
00:37:15,255 --> 00:37:18,345
So you get a product comes upon your
Instagram feed buy this product.

772
00:37:18,345 --> 00:37:24,435
You go to their website, um, and it's
usually a company shipping from China.

773
00:37:24,435 --> 00:37:27,795
You know this because there's no contact
information at all on the website.

774
00:37:28,455 --> 00:37:31,845
Uh, and it'll show you, I'm, I, I
can't remember the last example I saw.

775
00:37:31,845 --> 00:37:34,095
So I'm just gonna go with something
off the top of my head, like a head

776
00:37:34,095 --> 00:37:37,065
torch for hardcore campers, right?

777
00:37:37,215 --> 00:37:42,315
And they'll show you this image, um,
and it's like 30% off for limited time.

778
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:45,155
You go to their website
and it's like 70 bucks.

779
00:37:45,765 --> 00:37:50,355
Um, and then you go to Amazon and you
search that exact same product and

780
00:37:50,355 --> 00:37:54,195
it's 30 bucks, uh, and I can get it
tomorrow rather than five weeks time.

781
00:37:54,495 --> 00:37:58,185
There seems to be this strategy,
which I still don't understand by

782
00:37:58,185 --> 00:38:01,065
marketers, obviously, They're just
trying to get people on that sort.

783
00:38:02,475 --> 00:38:05,595
I guess that sort of, uh, you
know, that I'm gonna buy right

784
00:38:05,595 --> 00:38:07,544
now, that impulse buy type thing.

785
00:38:08,685 --> 00:38:14,115
So I'm always surprised by how
much this actually happens.

786
00:38:14,475 --> 00:38:17,774
Uh, with, with, uh, Instagram,
Facebook as a strategy.

787
00:38:17,774 --> 00:38:20,024
I'm gonna sell a product which is
cheap on Amazon, but I'm gonna sell

788
00:38:20,024 --> 00:38:25,154
it higher for impulse purchasers,
maybe with a sexy image or something.

789
00:38:25,725 --> 00:38:32,475
Um, have you, do you find that, that
actually you, obviously you, you focus

790
00:38:32,475 --> 00:38:35,234
on the other side, you focus on Amazon,
you're selling the head torch on Amazon.

791
00:38:35,234 --> 00:38:36,685
Does this kind of thing help you or not?

792
00:38:38,505 --> 00:38:43,215
Ryan Flannagan: Um, it actually generates
more demand to Amazon and more search.

793
00:38:43,305 --> 00:38:46,005
And because of that, if you're
the one advertising there,

794
00:38:46,010 --> 00:38:48,555
you're the one that organically
ranks and you have the reviews.

795
00:38:48,795 --> 00:38:52,125
It actually helps because it
is driving more traffic because

796
00:38:52,275 --> 00:38:54,555
people are like, I didn't even
think about buying a head torch.

797
00:38:54,555 --> 00:38:54,795
Mm-hmm.

798
00:38:55,065 --> 00:38:55,515
. Right?

799
00:38:55,575 --> 00:38:59,115
Um, and that's like a advertising
that somebody else does for marketing.

800
00:38:59,115 --> 00:39:01,755
Then they find us
organically or CR reviews.

801
00:39:01,995 --> 00:39:05,715
They weren't thinking about the email
solicitation they just got for Amazon.

802
00:39:06,105 --> 00:39:09,405
Um, and then they go, Well, I
should probably work with a company

803
00:39:09,405 --> 00:39:12,255
that's credible compared to somebody
who just emailed me randomly.

804
00:39:12,255 --> 00:39:12,675
Mm-hmm.

805
00:39:14,255 --> 00:39:17,425
go there and you buy and you
do that and it's actually.

806
00:39:18,375 --> 00:39:20,355
Another thing that's pretty
compelling that's happening in the

807
00:39:20,355 --> 00:39:24,675
Amazon space is Amazon's really
pivoting to working more with brands.

808
00:39:24,675 --> 00:39:29,355
They've really cracked down on, um,
the review augmentation and all the

809
00:39:29,355 --> 00:39:32,535
fake reviews that were happening,
but they're rolling out a whole

810
00:39:32,535 --> 00:39:33,955
bunch of features for brands.

811
00:39:34,845 --> 00:39:38,565
Um, and one of the things that they're
doing to continue to drive the flywheel

812
00:39:38,565 --> 00:39:42,265
is if your brand registered, you can
basically put in an affiliate Link

813
00:39:42,265 --> 00:39:46,905
to your marketing, and depending
on the category, you can get up

814
00:39:46,905 --> 00:39:48,765
to 10% of the referral feedback.

815
00:39:49,245 --> 00:39:56,595
So on Amazon, typical referral fee for the
pleasure of being on Amazon is 15%, right?

816
00:39:56,600 --> 00:39:56,715
Mm-hmm.

817
00:39:56,795 --> 00:39:59,115
, you pay on 15% every time you make a sale.

818
00:39:59,445 --> 00:40:03,915
But now if you actually drive to
your listing or your store, um,

819
00:40:03,915 --> 00:40:07,455
and somebody purchases and you're
using that from a, a Facebook or

820
00:40:07,515 --> 00:40:10,935
Instagram or any external marketing
that you're doing, you'll actually

821
00:40:10,935 --> 00:40:12,495
get 10% commissioned back on that.

822
00:40:13,095 --> 00:40:14,325
So then Amazon feed.

823
00:40:14,325 --> 00:40:15,404
Matt Edmundson: That's really interesting.

824
00:40:15,495 --> 00:40:17,355
Yeah, cuz that was gonna
be my next question.

825
00:40:17,355 --> 00:40:21,345
If I see the guy advertising the
head torch on Instagram for twice

826
00:40:21,350 --> 00:40:26,295
the price, but I actually have the
head torch, is there a strategy which

827
00:40:26,299 --> 00:40:30,645
says actually I can pay to appear
on Amazon, You know, I I the Amazon

828
00:40:30,645 --> 00:40:32,025
search and I'll pay to appear there.

829
00:40:32,565 --> 00:40:37,725
But should I also think about using
Instagram to drive traffic to my Amazon

830
00:40:37,725 --> 00:40:39,525
listing versus my website listing?

831
00:40:39,525 --> 00:40:42,375
I've asked this question, a couple
of people had varying degrees of,

832
00:40:42,435 --> 00:40:44,865
uh, response actually on the show
about this, so I'm curious to know

833
00:40:44,865 --> 00:40:46,464
what your thoughts are on it, Ryan.

834
00:40:47,394 --> 00:40:49,995
Ryan Flannagan: So what we see on
the platform in general is Amazon's

835
00:40:49,995 --> 00:40:53,865
pretty early on that, and I don't
a hundred percent trust the, the

836
00:40:53,865 --> 00:41:00,015
data that we're getting for the, the
conversion rate or the attribution

837
00:41:00,015 --> 00:41:01,305
for the sales on this, right?

838
00:41:01,310 --> 00:41:01,375
Mm-hmm.

839
00:41:01,460 --> 00:41:04,935
. So, um, it's twofold a test, right?

840
00:41:04,935 --> 00:41:05,215
Mm-hmm.

841
00:41:05,295 --> 00:41:06,795
, try both, right?

842
00:41:07,125 --> 00:41:11,505
Um, but what we typically see on
the Amazon platform is Amazon has a

843
00:41:11,505 --> 00:41:12,945
higher conversion rate in general.

844
00:41:13,275 --> 00:41:15,885
When people are shopping on Amazon,
they're shopping to buy mm-hmm.

845
00:41:16,100 --> 00:41:20,085
. So we'll see a typical a 5x the
conversion rate on your Amazon

846
00:41:20,085 --> 00:41:21,375
store compared to your website.

847
00:41:21,675 --> 00:41:21,795
Okay.

848
00:41:21,795 --> 00:41:22,305
Just in general.

849
00:41:22,725 --> 00:41:22,965
Yeah.

850
00:41:22,995 --> 00:41:23,475
Right.

851
00:41:23,785 --> 00:41:27,765
So, but the customer lifetime
value is significantly lower.

852
00:41:27,795 --> 00:41:27,885
Mm-hmm.

853
00:41:27,885 --> 00:41:29,415
Cause you don't own the customer data.

854
00:41:29,925 --> 00:41:30,015
Mm-hmm.

855
00:41:30,015 --> 00:41:30,495
Right?

856
00:41:30,585 --> 00:41:34,245
So what we see on your website
is the customer acquisition cost

857
00:41:34,250 --> 00:41:37,905
is higher, but your lifetime
value is significantly higher.

858
00:41:38,015 --> 00:41:38,575
Mm-hmm.

859
00:41:38,955 --> 00:41:39,285
Right.

860
00:41:39,315 --> 00:41:41,835
Cause you cross sell, you
uh, do all those things.

861
00:41:41,835 --> 00:41:44,025
You have their, uh, email address.

862
00:41:44,025 --> 00:41:46,785
You can do look at like audiences, you
can do all these other type of things.

863
00:41:46,785 --> 00:41:46,875
Mm-hmm.

864
00:41:47,174 --> 00:41:51,615
. So it really depends on where you
are in the journey as a a brand.

865
00:41:51,855 --> 00:41:53,865
Do you have one product
that you're selling?

866
00:41:54,165 --> 00:41:56,835
Well then maybe Amazon makes sense
cuz you're not cross-selling and

867
00:41:56,835 --> 00:41:57,795
doing all those type of things.

868
00:41:57,795 --> 00:42:02,625
But if you have, this is the first
product in a five step product line Yeah.

869
00:42:02,625 --> 00:42:05,895
Then your Shopify site or your
website may make more sense of that.

870
00:42:05,924 --> 00:42:08,835
But yeah, honestly you have to
get up and test both of those.

871
00:42:08,835 --> 00:42:09,015
Mm-hmm.

872
00:42:09,255 --> 00:42:10,015
to see what happens.

873
00:42:10,545 --> 00:42:12,225
That's at the end of what you have to do.

874
00:42:12,255 --> 00:42:13,215
Matt Edmundson: Very good answer.

875
00:42:13,395 --> 00:42:17,025
Very, uh, very well balanced answer, Ryan.

876
00:42:17,895 --> 00:42:18,555
Uh, it's a very good

877
00:42:18,835 --> 00:42:19,555
Ryan Flannagan: first time.

878
00:42:19,555 --> 00:42:20,995
The first time I've ever said about it.

879
00:42:21,015 --> 00:42:21,375
I swear.

880
00:42:23,565 --> 00:42:24,225
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, absolutely.

881
00:42:25,005 --> 00:42:31,305
Um, so left field, let me ask you
maybe a bit of a, an odd question,

882
00:42:31,335 --> 00:42:32,565
but I'm curious to know the answer.

883
00:42:33,075 --> 00:42:34,965
So, you know what?

884
00:42:34,995 --> 00:42:37,905
Tomorrow you wake up, you decide,
you know what, I am gonna, I'm

885
00:42:37,905 --> 00:42:41,385
gonna set up an Amazon business, I'm
gonna start selling stuff on Amazon.

886
00:42:41,385 --> 00:42:43,035
I don't have a product yet.

887
00:42:43,605 --> 00:42:47,835
Um, and I see this all the time,
uh, on Instagram, YouTube ads.

888
00:42:47,835 --> 00:42:51,435
Like maybe it's just me, the advertised to
me, you know, come do my course and we'll

889
00:42:51,435 --> 00:42:56,385
show you how to make 5 million on Amazon,
uh, by selling plastic widgets, which

890
00:42:56,385 --> 00:43:00,645
you buy from China for 12 pence and you
sell 'em for 40, whatever it is, right?

891
00:43:00,815 --> 00:43:03,105
Ryan Flannagan: No, no beta
switch going on there whatsoever.

892
00:43:03,194 --> 00:43:03,585
Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

893
00:43:03,585 --> 00:43:04,484
No know, no whatsoever.

894
00:43:04,935 --> 00:43:09,045
Um, and if it was that easy, forget the
course, sell the product, leave me alone.

895
00:43:09,345 --> 00:43:10,875
Um, but that's another story anyway.

896
00:43:11,565 --> 00:43:14,535
Um, so you've got that going on, right?

897
00:43:15,645 --> 00:43:17,805
And you said right at the start, it's
not actually that straightforward.

898
00:43:17,805 --> 00:43:18,825
It's not that simple.

899
00:43:18,825 --> 00:43:23,504
But obviously there are people who wake
up and go, I want to now sell on Amazon.

900
00:43:24,015 --> 00:43:28,185
How would you approach it if
you were a total newbie, right?

901
00:43:28,785 --> 00:43:31,605
How would you approach
this sell on Amazon thing?

902
00:43:31,609 --> 00:43:35,355
Would you ignore all these courses or are
there some that we should think about?

903
00:43:35,955 --> 00:43:37,904
I'm, whatever, whatever comes to mind.

904
00:43:37,904 --> 00:43:38,835
I'm just really curious,

905
00:43:39,674 --> 00:43:40,035
Ryan Flannagan: RIght.

906
00:43:40,035 --> 00:43:46,515
So, um, I would probably take a course,
just so you understand it, it's, you

907
00:43:46,515 --> 00:43:48,075
always start out with education, right?

908
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:48,444
Mm-hmm.

909
00:43:48,529 --> 00:43:51,734
, and it doesn't necessarily have to be
a course, but watch the videos on it.

910
00:43:51,740 --> 00:43:54,615
See the product findings, See, see
what they're saying on those levels.

911
00:43:54,615 --> 00:43:59,025
But at the end of the day, before
you go buy anything,  search the

912
00:43:59,055 --> 00:44:02,235
term that you think people are
going to use when purchasing those

913
00:44:02,475 --> 00:44:04,965
and look at the listings, right?

914
00:44:05,025 --> 00:44:07,035
Are, are they all really well done?

915
00:44:07,035 --> 00:44:08,085
Are there good reviews?

916
00:44:08,090 --> 00:44:09,255
Are there good images?

917
00:44:09,260 --> 00:44:10,815
Are there video ads?

918
00:44:10,965 --> 00:44:13,665
Like where is that and where is
that in the competitive Verizon?

919
00:44:13,965 --> 00:44:17,205
And then look at the pricing
of what they're selling, right?

920
00:44:17,205 --> 00:44:20,865
Where I, I think the number one area
where people make a mistake is that they

921
00:44:20,865 --> 00:44:22,635
don't look at the unit economics, right?

922
00:44:22,635 --> 00:44:27,015
And that's one thing that we look at for,
we work with a lot of existing brands on

923
00:44:27,015 --> 00:44:31,095
Amazon, but if they're the right company
and they have the appropriate funding

924
00:44:31,095 --> 00:44:34,485
and they want do it, well, then we will
help some certain brands launch, right?

925
00:44:34,875 --> 00:44:37,935
And the first thing that we look at
with that is what are the unit economics

926
00:44:38,145 --> 00:44:43,245
and where do you put in, in that price
elasticity question on Amazon, right?

927
00:44:43,305 --> 00:44:49,215
Um, so you have to take account the,
the 15% on average that, uh, they'll,

928
00:44:49,335 --> 00:44:51,965
Amazon will charge you as a referral
fee depending on your category.

929
00:44:52,590 --> 00:44:54,510
And then you have to look
at your shipping cost.

930
00:44:54,515 --> 00:44:54,870
Mm-hmm.

931
00:44:54,955 --> 00:44:55,110
, right?

932
00:44:55,110 --> 00:44:56,970
What is the going cost to ship as well?

933
00:44:57,150 --> 00:44:59,820
And then when you look at those two
things, you look at your cogs too

934
00:45:00,030 --> 00:45:04,260
and you say, Well, what is my margin
at the end of the day based on this?

935
00:45:04,260 --> 00:45:07,710
Because a lot of people will go, Oh,
that's only selling for 20 bucks.

936
00:45:07,860 --> 00:45:10,260
My cogs are five, I'll be great.

937
00:45:10,290 --> 00:45:12,960
You know, that's the 75% gross margin.

938
00:45:12,990 --> 00:45:16,650
Well, no, cuz you're not
digging the 15% in the shipping.

939
00:45:16,650 --> 00:45:16,740
Mm-hmm.

940
00:45:17,190 --> 00:45:20,760
. So your, your gross margin's
actually 25% mm-hmm.

941
00:45:20,870 --> 00:45:22,470
before you do advertising.

942
00:45:22,470 --> 00:45:23,160
Mm-hmm.

943
00:45:23,250 --> 00:45:26,790
. And if you do advertising, you know,
the first few months before you

944
00:45:26,795 --> 00:45:30,270
have reviews, before you have these
type of things, you may be at a

945
00:45:30,270 --> 00:45:33,010
hundred aCos, you may add 200% aCos.

946
00:45:33,330 --> 00:45:35,220
Right now we shoot for your taCos.

947
00:45:35,370 --> 00:45:40,060
Typically when you launch your, you know,
it's kind of almost a one for one on that.

948
00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:42,120
Like I spend $1, I make $1.

949
00:45:42,125 --> 00:45:42,470
Mm-hmm.

950
00:45:42,555 --> 00:45:43,379
on the platform.

951
00:45:43,379 --> 00:45:46,440
Sometimes it's, I spend $3,
I make $1 on the platform.

952
00:45:46,620 --> 00:45:50,339
And you have to look at those things, um,
until you get the reviews and you really

953
00:45:50,339 --> 00:45:52,589
can start to build that up and grow.

954
00:45:52,830 --> 00:45:57,330
But what we find is gradually you go from
that, you know, a hundred percent taCos,

955
00:45:57,330 --> 00:46:03,420
let's call it to 50% taCos, to, we have
clients that we work with that, um, you

956
00:46:03,420 --> 00:46:09,029
know, for every dollar they spend on the
platform, they make $20 on the platform.

957
00:46:09,035 --> 00:46:09,420
Right.

958
00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:12,240
And then we have other clients
that are really well brand and not

959
00:46:12,245 --> 00:46:16,020
optimized and have big retail level
that, you know, for every $1 they

960
00:46:16,109 --> 00:46:18,150
spend, they make $85 on the platform.

961
00:46:18,430 --> 00:46:18,990
Right.

962
00:46:19,049 --> 00:46:21,390
And, and it just depends on
where you are in that cycle.

963
00:46:21,629 --> 00:46:25,315
But at the bare minimum, if you're
thinking about going into this.

964
00:46:25,515 --> 00:46:29,145
Run the math first before you
invest any real money or mm-hmm.

965
00:46:29,385 --> 00:46:34,605
, talk to a genuine agency that will say,
This is the deal, this is the investment,

966
00:46:34,610 --> 00:46:36,105
this is what you like to look at.

967
00:46:36,105 --> 00:46:39,345
What I pretty much recommend for
everybody, if you're going launch

968
00:46:39,345 --> 00:46:44,205
a product on Amazon, is going to,
honestly, at the end of the day, cost

969
00:46:44,210 --> 00:46:48,735
you 30 to $50,000 per product and you
just have to kind of pencil that in.

970
00:46:49,155 --> 00:46:49,365
Right.

971
00:46:49,365 --> 00:46:54,345
That's not even counting, That's not
even counting, you know, buying the

972
00:46:54,345 --> 00:46:55,995
product and doing those type of things.

973
00:46:55,995 --> 00:46:59,175
But we have people come to us all
the time that wanna do five products.

974
00:46:59,175 --> 00:47:00,945
You're like, Well hold up.

975
00:47:00,945 --> 00:47:05,865
If you're gonna do five products, then
you should pencil in $250,000 to do this.

976
00:47:06,195 --> 00:47:08,905
Or maybe we should look at the
five products you're looking at.

977
00:47:09,135 --> 00:47:13,575
Choose the best winner and then go at that
and see what this looks like over a six

978
00:47:13,575 --> 00:47:15,584
month period and build out from there.

979
00:47:16,245 --> 00:47:19,455
Matt Edmundson: So the 30, $50,000
to launch a product, this is

980
00:47:19,455 --> 00:47:21,134
over a period of say six months.

981
00:47:21,584 --> 00:47:26,685
Um, and the majority of that fee is going
into the paid media to try and figure

982
00:47:26,685 --> 00:47:31,604
out what it is that you are doing, um,
who's buying it, and so on and so forth.

983
00:47:31,604 --> 00:47:32,145
Is that right?

984
00:47:32,774 --> 00:47:33,645
Ryan Flannagan: Yes, that's correct.

985
00:47:34,125 --> 00:47:34,395
Matt Edmundson: Okay.

986
00:47:34,785 --> 00:47:35,145
That's a really,

987
00:47:35,145 --> 00:47:38,595
Ryan Flannagan: Now you have to, you know,
and that's from the advertising stuff.

988
00:47:38,595 --> 00:47:41,924
It also depends on what agency
you work with, standing up the

989
00:47:41,924 --> 00:47:44,294
listings, doing those type of things.

990
00:47:44,294 --> 00:47:47,145
That's, uh, always kind.

991
00:47:48,615 --> 00:47:56,625
Uh, uh, people try to commoditize
listing building, right, and building

992
00:47:56,629 --> 00:47:59,444
your listing and doing the images
and all those type of things are not.

993
00:47:59,820 --> 00:48:02,520
You don't want to go bargain basement
when you're doing those type of things.

994
00:48:02,525 --> 00:48:05,220
Mm-hmm, because the images are
the number one critical thing

995
00:48:05,220 --> 00:48:06,180
that you can have on there.

996
00:48:06,210 --> 00:48:06,570
Right.

997
00:48:06,575 --> 00:48:06,920
Okay.

998
00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:08,160
And the content and those things.

999
00:48:08,165 --> 00:48:12,210
So if you try to commoditize that,
what you'll end up is you'll end up

1000
00:48:12,210 --> 00:48:15,990
with, uh, the head torch that doesn't
work and breaks after two weeks.

1001
00:48:15,995 --> 00:48:16,480
Right.

1002
00:48:16,710 --> 00:48:18,300
Uh, from that side of things.

1003
00:48:18,300 --> 00:48:21,320
So you really do wanna take your time
to build out the best listing based on

1004
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:25,230
good keyword research, based on really
strong images, because particularly

1005
00:48:25,230 --> 00:48:29,190
when you don't have reviews, you have
to look better than everybody else.

1006
00:48:29,190 --> 00:48:29,280
Mm-hmm.

1007
00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:31,830
and look more of a premium
brand and out those ways.

1008
00:48:31,830 --> 00:48:34,230
So those are things that you just
need to think about when kind

1009
00:48:34,235 --> 00:48:35,520
of going through this process.

1010
00:48:36,410 --> 00:48:40,500
Matt Edmundson: So what, uh,
I, again, I appreciate, this

1011
00:48:40,500 --> 00:48:42,420
is a very open ended question.

1012
00:48:42,690 --> 00:48:46,200
Uh, but if you were gonna start
today on Amazon, what sort of

1013
00:48:46,205 --> 00:48:47,640
products would you look at?

1014
00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:49,050
What sort of products would you avoid?

1015
00:48:50,220 --> 00:48:52,290
Ryan Flannagan: Yeah, um, so.

1016
00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:54,360
So there's big winners, right?

1017
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:59,340
So cosmetics and supplements are
very, very competitive markets

1018
00:48:59,340 --> 00:49:03,210
on those, but you typically have
higher lifetime values, right?

1019
00:49:03,215 --> 00:49:05,610
Mm-hmm, so supplements, and
everybody's been golden going after

1020
00:49:05,610 --> 00:49:07,800
that golden goose for a long time.

1021
00:49:08,100 --> 00:49:12,180
Um, but like I'll tell you, like
elderberry keyword, you know,

1022
00:49:12,180 --> 00:49:17,160
the average price on that's like
$17 and the cost per click is $9.

1023
00:49:17,490 --> 00:49:17,730
Wow.

1024
00:49:17,790 --> 00:49:18,240
Right?

1025
00:49:18,450 --> 00:49:22,110
So unless you're really converting
on that, you're, you're losing money.

1026
00:49:22,140 --> 00:49:22,410
Mm-hmm.

1027
00:49:22,650 --> 00:49:22,950
, right?

1028
00:49:22,950 --> 00:49:25,890
You really have to have a
offsite strategy with that.

1029
00:49:25,890 --> 00:49:29,669
So, What I would look at, and you can
tell because like you look for elderberry

1030
00:49:29,700 --> 00:49:34,290
gummies and you'll see that everybody
up there has 2000, 3000, 4,000 reviews.

1031
00:49:34,490 --> 00:49:35,089
Mm-hmm..

1032
00:49:35,174 --> 00:49:40,859
What I'm doing this on the level is I'm
looking for something that a matches the

1033
00:49:40,859 --> 00:49:44,160
unit economics, kind of running through
the formula that I talked about earlier,

1034
00:49:44,580 --> 00:49:46,770
but also has a longer lifetime value.

1035
00:49:47,129 --> 00:49:47,490
Right.

1036
00:49:47,490 --> 00:49:50,819
Something that people come back and
repurchase that will work on subscribe

1037
00:49:50,825 --> 00:49:53,939
and save and doing those type of
things because it's significantly

1038
00:49:53,939 --> 00:49:57,479
harder to win on the platform where
you spend that much for customer

1039
00:49:57,479 --> 00:49:59,700
acquisition and then they go away.

1040
00:49:59,970 --> 00:50:00,060
Mm-hmm..

1041
00:50:00,359 --> 00:50:02,899
Cause then it's like every time
I'm just rinsing or repeating

1042
00:50:02,915 --> 00:50:06,029
the same type of thing compared
to like, Hey, I got somebody.

1043
00:50:06,240 --> 00:50:07,560
I love these razor blades.

1044
00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:09,060
You're my razor blade guy.

1045
00:50:09,340 --> 00:50:11,910
I'm gonna buy razor blades from
you for the next five years.

1046
00:50:12,419 --> 00:50:16,020
And then your customer acquisition
is great because I'm willing to spend

1047
00:50:16,350 --> 00:50:18,390
two times the cost of the razor blade.

1048
00:50:18,390 --> 00:50:18,720
Mm-hmm.

1049
00:50:18,890 --> 00:50:21,669
to get somebody to buy because
I know they're gonna be with me

1050
00:50:21,689 --> 00:50:22,950
for the next two to three years.

1051
00:50:24,105 --> 00:50:24,375
Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

1052
00:50:24,464 --> 00:50:25,125
Very good.

1053
00:50:25,484 --> 00:50:26,444
Very, very helpful.

1054
00:50:27,404 --> 00:50:27,674
Ryan.

1055
00:50:27,674 --> 00:50:31,875
Listen, I'm aware of time,
so let me ask you my, uh, my

1056
00:50:31,875 --> 00:50:33,285
new favorite question, right?

1057
00:50:33,375 --> 00:50:38,685
Uh, as you know, the eCommerce cohort
is the sponsor for today's podcast.

1058
00:50:38,685 --> 00:50:43,035
So you're in a hotel, you've just
delivered a keynote speech to all the

1059
00:50:43,035 --> 00:50:47,205
eCommerce cohort dudes who've got together
for their annual get together, the Shin

1060
00:50:47,205 --> 00:50:50,504
dig, the Soiree, uh, and you've been
talking about all this stuff on Amazon.

1061
00:50:50,504 --> 00:50:52,935
The crowd's going wild.

1062
00:50:53,085 --> 00:50:54,464
It's going absolutely crazy.

1063
00:50:54,795 --> 00:50:59,115
Um, and so you kind of go on stage, you
take your bow and it's like, listen, I

1064
00:50:59,115 --> 00:51:01,634
would just like to thank dot, dot, dot.

1065
00:51:01,634 --> 00:51:02,865
Who do you thank and why?

1066
00:51:02,865 --> 00:51:03,615
Is it a person?

1067
00:51:03,615 --> 00:51:04,305
Is it a mentor?

1068
00:51:04,310 --> 00:51:05,085
Is it a podcast?

1069
00:51:05,085 --> 00:51:05,774
Is it a book?

1070
00:51:06,165 --> 00:51:07,634
Who, who, who springs out?

1071
00:51:08,625 --> 00:51:12,435
Ryan Flannagan: Um, it would really
have to be the people on Nuanced Media

1072
00:51:12,435 --> 00:51:14,384
who've been through this journey with me.

1073
00:51:14,595 --> 00:51:14,685
Mm-hmm.

1074
00:51:14,930 --> 00:51:17,955
, I mean, we've been around 12 years
and the people really helped me

1075
00:51:17,984 --> 00:51:19,634
build the brand and grow from that.

1076
00:51:20,055 --> 00:51:25,065
Um, doing the day in, day out activity
and really kinda helping this dream

1077
00:51:25,065 --> 00:51:27,675
come to life and continuing to do that.

1078
00:51:27,705 --> 00:51:32,415
Um, the other people, that person
I like to really thank is, uh,

1079
00:51:32,865 --> 00:51:36,315
obviously my wife and daughter for
dealing with me all the time while,

1080
00:51:36,315 --> 00:51:37,485
while I'm working on these things.

1081
00:51:37,785 --> 00:51:42,105
But then, um, my mother and my uncle,
who are both, uh, entrepreneurs

1082
00:51:42,105 --> 00:51:44,865
in their own level, put out
their own shingle, developed it,

1083
00:51:44,865 --> 00:51:46,205
had a dream and made it happen.

1084
00:51:46,705 --> 00:51:48,779
Um, so that would be the shortlist.

1085
00:51:49,020 --> 00:51:49,500
Matt Edmundson: Oh, wow.

1086
00:51:50,019 --> 00:51:52,410
Ryan Flannagan: I heard the
Oscar music in the background,

1087
00:51:52,410 --> 00:51:55,070
so I'm trying to keep it short.

1088
00:51:55,140 --> 00:51:56,670
Matt Edmundson: Yes, absolutely.

1089
00:51:57,180 --> 00:51:57,990
That's really interesting.

1090
00:51:58,290 --> 00:52:00,960
It's what fascinates me is I've
started asking this question.

1091
00:52:00,960 --> 00:52:05,189
Every uh, husband that comes on
the show automatically says, Oh,

1092
00:52:05,189 --> 00:52:08,310
obviously my wife, uh, for putting
out with me, which is the standard

1093
00:52:08,310 --> 00:52:10,470
response, which still makes me smile.

1094
00:52:10,710 --> 00:52:13,560
And I think in 10 years time, I'll
still be smiling at that answer just

1095
00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:15,089
because obviously I'm in the same boat..

1096
00:52:16,044 --> 00:52:19,439
Um, it's interesting you mentioned
your mum and uncle though.

1097
00:52:19,620 --> 00:52:22,710
Uh, so have you come from
an entrepreneurial sort

1098
00:52:22,710 --> 00:52:24,120
of family and background?

1099
00:52:24,779 --> 00:52:25,680
Ryan Flannagan: Yeah, yeah.

1100
00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:27,359
Uh, my mother's a psychotherapist.

1101
00:52:27,365 --> 00:52:31,379
She's been practicing for 35
years at this point and put out

1102
00:52:31,384 --> 00:52:33,029
her own shingle a long time ago.

1103
00:52:33,060 --> 00:52:33,149
Mm-hmm..

1104
00:52:33,390 --> 00:52:38,339
And then, uh, my uncle works with
Veterans Law before it was legal to even

1105
00:52:38,345 --> 00:52:40,440
represent veterans and get paid for it.

1106
00:52:40,500 --> 00:52:43,620
Um, VA does not great things for
our American veterans, and he

1107
00:52:43,620 --> 00:52:44,760
kind of founded that type of law.

1108
00:52:45,210 --> 00:52:45,660
Oh, wow.

1109
00:52:45,710 --> 00:52:48,930
And, and you know, so, and they've
been both greatly successful.

1110
00:52:48,930 --> 00:52:53,730
So they, uh, gave me, encouraged me to be
delusional enough to start my own company.

1111
00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:59,700
Matt Edmundson: So that's such
a great, That's, that's almost

1112
00:52:59,700 --> 00:53:01,050
a brilliant epitaph, isn't it?

1113
00:53:01,380 --> 00:53:05,190
Uh, here lies delusional enough
to start his own business.

1114
00:53:05,190 --> 00:53:06,090
I quite like that.

1115
00:53:06,090 --> 00:53:07,740
That's, um, that's brilliant.

1116
00:53:08,310 --> 00:53:11,340
And I was thinking your mum's a
psychotherapist, so do you feel like,

1117
00:53:11,370 --> 00:53:15,300
uh, if you say something, she's kind of
analyzing what's going on all the time?

1118
00:53:15,305 --> 00:53:15,720
Or is it,

1119
00:53:15,990 --> 00:53:17,730
Ryan Flannagan: Oh, we're,
we're way beyond that.

1120
00:53:20,370 --> 00:53:22,050
Matt Edmundson: There's some
people that are beyond help.

1121
00:53:22,170 --> 00:53:22,440
Right.

1122
00:53:23,280 --> 00:53:28,380
So the way it works, So you, um,
One of the things to mention is,

1123
00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:33,420
uh, I, I came across, um, your
book, The, uh, Marketing is Dead.

1124
00:53:33,420 --> 00:53:36,060
Long Live Marketing book,
which you wrote in 2019.

1125
00:53:36,065 --> 00:53:40,260
Now, this is a, you mentioned this is more
of a B2B book about inbound marketing.

1126
00:53:40,265 --> 00:53:40,590
Right.

1127
00:53:41,280 --> 00:53:45,240
Um, and I guess my question here is,
uh, given that you are an author, you

1128
00:53:45,240 --> 00:53:47,310
talk a lot about marketing B2B inbound.

1129
00:53:47,730 --> 00:53:49,500
Um, obviously you've
talked a lot about Amazon.

1130
00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:55,110
Since the pandemic, would
anything in that book change?

1131
00:53:56,340 --> 00:53:58,830
Ryan Flannagan: Um, so
let me just be very clear.

1132
00:53:58,830 --> 00:54:03,750
So Nuanced Media, all we do is eCommerce,
Amazon, that that's all we focus on.

1133
00:54:03,750 --> 00:54:06,779
And the funny thing with this book
is I probably started two years

1134
00:54:06,779 --> 00:54:09,870
before it actually got published, so
this was a longer thing that we were

1135
00:54:09,870 --> 00:54:11,370
kind of working in the background.

1136
00:54:11,850 --> 00:54:18,000
Um, the compelling thing with business to
business practices is they really apply

1137
00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:20,970
a lot in the consumer D to C side too.

1138
00:54:20,970 --> 00:54:21,170
Mm-hmm.

1139
00:54:21,255 --> 00:54:24,660
, because it is about building
trust, building credibility.

1140
00:54:24,959 --> 00:54:28,750
Doing these type of things,
but particularly more paired

1141
00:54:28,770 --> 00:54:31,649
to more expensive products.

1142
00:54:31,649 --> 00:54:36,330
So if you're going to go out and spend,
let's say $2,000 on a telescope, it's

1143
00:54:36,330 --> 00:54:38,430
actually more of a B2B engagement.

1144
00:54:38,580 --> 00:54:38,850
Mm-hmm.

1145
00:54:39,089 --> 00:54:44,370
than is a D to C typical engagement
when you're buying lip liner for $10.

1146
00:54:44,609 --> 00:54:44,759
Yeah.

1147
00:54:44,759 --> 00:54:44,910
Right.

1148
00:54:44,910 --> 00:54:47,279
Because you do your research,
you look at reviews, you need

1149
00:54:47,279 --> 00:54:48,330
to make sure it's the best.

1150
00:54:48,509 --> 00:54:49,649
All these type of things.

1151
00:54:49,649 --> 00:54:54,839
So that's something that I think would be
very interesting is Highline in that book

1152
00:54:54,930 --> 00:54:57,509
more how this pairs to high value items.

1153
00:54:57,595 --> 00:54:58,205
Mm-hmm.

1154
00:54:58,290 --> 00:55:03,735
, uh, in Amazon and on Google on your
website, compared to just looking at

1155
00:55:03,735 --> 00:55:09,585
the B2B side because quite frankly,
B2B sales are more about risk than

1156
00:55:09,585 --> 00:55:12,435
anything because somebody's job may
be on the line, finding the right

1157
00:55:12,435 --> 00:55:14,835
company, doing these type of things.

1158
00:55:15,165 --> 00:55:18,315
Um, and that's quite frankly
why we built out this kinda

1159
00:55:18,345 --> 00:55:20,025
partner network at Nuanced Media.

1160
00:55:20,085 --> 00:55:23,415
We're not a good fit for somebody,
so we can help people still make the

1161
00:55:23,415 --> 00:55:26,895
good decision by companies that's
actually been doing this for a while

1162
00:55:26,895 --> 00:55:30,855
and has vetted a whole bunch of
providers on this to make sure you are

1163
00:55:30,855 --> 00:55:33,015
not, um, having the issue with this.

1164
00:55:33,465 --> 00:55:41,205
Um, but with this part of it, it is
about looking at how higher valued

1165
00:55:41,205 --> 00:55:46,325
items go through that customer journey,
um, and how it really pairs to that.

1166
00:55:46,340 --> 00:55:49,095
So that's something that I probably
would've added to the book when

1167
00:55:49,095 --> 00:55:50,985
looking at, on that side of things.

1168
00:55:51,870 --> 00:55:53,760
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, it's,
it is interesting, isn't it?

1169
00:55:53,760 --> 00:55:56,760
I mean, I, I remember when we started
the eCommerce podcast, we, it was called

1170
00:55:56,760 --> 00:56:00,120
the Curiosity Podcast, I think originally
back in the day before I changed the name.

1171
00:56:00,660 --> 00:56:04,920
Um, and I remember one of our
very first guests on the show

1172
00:56:04,925 --> 00:56:06,750
was a lady called Chelsea Cohen.

1173
00:56:07,200 --> 00:56:11,760
Uh, and she, the title of the podcast
was How to Sell a $6,000 Sweater Online.

1174
00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:12,360
Right?

1175
00:56:12,840 --> 00:56:15,600
And I was like, Who in the world
is gonna spend six grand on us?

1176
00:56:15,600 --> 00:56:17,670
Apparently there's a lot of people
that will spend six grand on a

1177
00:56:17,675 --> 00:56:18,960
sweater, but let's not go into that.

1178
00:56:19,020 --> 00:56:24,660
And it's, it was interesting cuz you're,
what you're saying is actually, if

1179
00:56:24,660 --> 00:56:28,890
you are in that field, that sort of
luxury and that high end, then actually

1180
00:56:28,890 --> 00:56:33,390
some of these more B2B principles do
apply and you should be aware of them

1181
00:56:33,390 --> 00:56:36,720
in terms of the customer journey and
understanding the customer journey.

1182
00:56:37,320 --> 00:56:39,150
Um, and that's what she talked about.

1183
00:56:39,150 --> 00:56:40,950
And I'd say it's interesting,
isn't it, how these sort of

1184
00:56:40,950 --> 00:56:42,540
things call form come full circle.

1185
00:56:42,540 --> 00:56:47,070
So, uh, so are you gonna update the book
or are you just gonna leave it or have

1186
00:56:47,070 --> 00:56:48,480
you got another book in the pipeline?

1187
00:56:48,480 --> 00:56:49,740
Like how to Kill It on Amazon?

1188
00:56:50,370 --> 00:56:50,730
Ryan Flannagan: Yeah.

1189
00:56:50,730 --> 00:56:54,060
So we're working on a number of
things internally on this right now.

1190
00:56:54,060 --> 00:56:55,350
You can check out our blog.

1191
00:56:55,350 --> 00:56:56,850
There's a ton of blogs out there.

1192
00:56:56,850 --> 00:56:58,350
We publish, you know, twice a week.

1193
00:56:58,350 --> 00:57:02,730
I, I pretty much write quite, quite
a bit on those type of things.

1194
00:57:02,735 --> 00:57:08,760
But, uh, the blog, I mean, the next
book I'm probably gonna vet for, I, I

1195
00:57:08,790 --> 00:57:10,290
have some ideas that I'm entertained.

1196
00:57:10,290 --> 00:57:12,540
I'm not willing to say
anything at this point, Matt.

1197
00:57:12,570 --> 00:57:12,960
Okay.

1198
00:57:13,320 --> 00:57:13,530
Okay.

1199
00:57:13,530 --> 00:57:14,820
Stay tuned on that level.

1200
00:57:15,050 --> 00:57:17,880
Matt Edmundson: Done bud when you
write the book, come back on the show

1201
00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:19,230
and let us know what it's all about.

1202
00:57:20,310 --> 00:57:23,850
You know how to kill it on Amazon.

1203
00:57:23,855 --> 00:57:28,765
You heard it here first,
ladies and gentlemen.

1204
00:57:28,765 --> 00:57:29,004
so listen

1205
00:57:29,004 --> 00:57:31,830
Ryan Flannagan: But the problem that
we see with books that to be very

1206
00:57:31,830 --> 00:57:36,390
candid, is that in the d to C space,
things are changing so quickly.

1207
00:57:36,690 --> 00:57:37,530
Mm-hmm, right?

1208
00:57:37,530 --> 00:57:40,740
Like, B2B principles are kind of
historic and they stay that way.

1209
00:57:40,740 --> 00:57:45,585
There, there is, uh, you know,
Prospects first leads, how you

1210
00:57:45,585 --> 00:57:49,845
qualify, how you get the men, thought
leadership, all these type of things.

1211
00:57:50,085 --> 00:57:54,855
But what we see in uh, you know,
execution on Shopify or Amazon

1212
00:57:54,860 --> 00:57:58,455
or any of these things is just
changing dynamically on a day to day.

1213
00:57:58,455 --> 00:58:03,015
So I don't know if the book model to be
some ways is that outdated level there.

1214
00:58:03,015 --> 00:58:06,705
There's arguments that classic
college education's outdated as well

1215
00:58:06,705 --> 00:58:09,945
because things are changing so quickly
and I don't know if that doesn't

1216
00:58:09,945 --> 00:58:11,565
necessarily apply to the book as well.

1217
00:58:12,375 --> 00:58:12,645
Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

1218
00:58:12,650 --> 00:58:16,455
One of the things I've noticed about
the podcast is obviously you, you see

1219
00:58:16,455 --> 00:58:20,415
the stats and you see which episodes do
well and there are some episodes which

1220
00:58:20,420 --> 00:58:22,035
come out and they do well straight away.

1221
00:58:22,155 --> 00:58:25,275
And there are some episodes which
do well over a period of time.

1222
00:58:25,275 --> 00:58:28,305
There are people still down
downloading certain episodes.

1223
00:58:28,860 --> 00:58:32,430
From two, two and a half years
ago because they're kind of the,

1224
00:58:32,580 --> 00:58:33,990
what they call evergreen content.

1225
00:58:33,990 --> 00:58:36,930
It seems to be always constantly relevant.

1226
00:58:37,260 --> 00:58:39,180
Uh, which is, I think,
hard to do with e-commerce.

1227
00:58:39,180 --> 00:58:41,760
I mean, some of it's pretty, you know,
there are some standard principles,

1228
00:58:42,420 --> 00:58:45,990
but even in markets that change a
lot, there's still some, some sort

1229
00:58:45,995 --> 00:58:47,520
of, some consistencies aren't there.

1230
00:58:47,520 --> 00:58:50,430
And I find, I find the whole thing
really fascinating in terms of

1231
00:58:50,430 --> 00:58:53,220
what works right now and what's
gonna work in a few years time.

1232
00:58:53,250 --> 00:58:56,850
You just, you never know, you know, in
terms of the content that we put out.

1233
00:58:57,600 --> 00:59:00,000
Ryan Flannagan: Well, and, but something
that I always get is like, if you

1234
00:59:00,005 --> 00:59:03,900
don't have your fundamentals down,
don't worry about the bright new thing.

1235
00:59:04,080 --> 00:59:06,970
And that's the one thing I have
to say that I believe nuanced

1236
00:59:06,990 --> 00:59:10,440
probably does better than everybody
else, is we get your fundamentals

1237
00:59:10,445 --> 00:59:12,330
down to where they really need.

1238
00:59:12,480 --> 00:59:12,570
Mm-hmm.

1239
00:59:12,810 --> 00:59:17,400
before you start playing with the new
cute thing that may work or may not work

1240
00:59:17,400 --> 00:59:22,170
because you have a lot of people doing
it packed to go back that old, the old.

1241
00:59:22,770 --> 00:59:26,700
Uh, Shopify thing that I said at
the beginning, Hey, I need to run

1242
00:59:26,700 --> 00:59:30,150
a million dollar ad campaign on
Google, but my website's taking

1243
00:59:30,150 --> 00:59:31,710
five to 10 seconds to load.

1244
00:59:32,010 --> 00:59:32,100
Mm-hmm.

1245
00:59:32,340 --> 00:59:32,580
, right?

1246
00:59:32,585 --> 00:59:34,950
You need to make sure that those
things are really taken care

1247
00:59:34,955 --> 00:59:36,750
of first before you do that.

1248
00:59:36,755 --> 00:59:39,420
So if you're fundamentals aren't good,
if you don't have good reviews, you don't

1249
00:59:39,420 --> 00:59:42,570
have a good product listening, you're
not analyzing, you're not tracking, then

1250
00:59:42,570 --> 00:59:46,440
any bright, new, shiny thing that you're
going to do isn't going to work for you.

1251
00:59:46,770 --> 00:59:51,060
And we honestly find on Amazon
and other platforms that the vast

1252
00:59:51,060 --> 00:59:54,270
majority of competitors are not doing
it to the level that they need to

1253
00:59:54,270 --> 00:59:56,850
be doing it to be on this new age.

1254
00:59:57,570 --> 00:59:59,730
Matt Edmundson: There's a mic drop
moment right there, isn't there?

1255
00:59:59,730 --> 01:00:03,360
So, uh, if you are in effect, if you
take it then if you are on Amazon

1256
01:00:03,360 --> 01:00:06,090
and you're planning, doing some kind
of strategy, the advantage at the

1257
01:00:06,090 --> 01:00:09,030
moment is not everyone's on there.

1258
01:00:09,360 --> 01:00:12,840
There are a lot of things which are
competitive, but most of them aren't

1259
01:00:12,840 --> 01:00:15,300
doing what they need to do for.

1260
01:00:15,960 --> 01:00:19,680
For the, for the long term, for, for
winning on Amazon, the, the growth

1261
01:00:19,680 --> 01:00:21,150
driven strategy, which you talked about.

1262
01:00:21,330 --> 01:00:23,759
And that's where the
opportunity is right now.

1263
01:00:24,540 --> 01:00:24,900
Ryan Flannagan: Correct.

1264
01:00:24,900 --> 01:00:27,450
And in fact, we've put out a
guide that you can download

1265
01:00:27,455 --> 01:00:30,480
at our site@nuancedmedia.com.

1266
01:00:30,600 --> 01:00:34,859
It's a growth driven kind of strategy,
Amazon growth driven strategy guide.

1267
01:00:35,220 --> 01:00:37,890
Uh, and you can go on there,
It'll pop up after you're on

1268
01:00:37,890 --> 01:00:39,480
the site for about five minutes.

1269
01:00:39,540 --> 01:00:43,259
That kind of goes over some of these
key principles, what we see and really

1270
01:00:43,259 --> 01:00:46,440
how you should be focusing on some of
the things that we actually covered

1271
01:00:46,444 --> 01:00:47,879
in this, uh, conversation today.

1272
01:00:48,240 --> 01:00:48,509
Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

1273
01:00:48,509 --> 01:00:49,259
Fantastic.

1274
01:00:49,259 --> 01:00:52,470
So dude, download that free
guide from nuancedmedia.com.

1275
01:00:52,859 --> 01:00:54,150
How do people reach you?

1276
01:00:54,150 --> 01:00:56,940
How do people connect, Ryan, if they
want to reach out, know more, connect?

1277
01:00:57,210 --> 01:00:57,660
Ryan Flannagan: Sure.

1278
01:00:57,665 --> 01:01:01,770
I'm on LinkedIn, I'm on Twitter,
I'm on, uh, I got email.

1279
01:01:01,830 --> 01:01:05,670
I, I got all the things, but
primarily ways to reach out, uh,

1280
01:01:05,819 --> 01:01:09,480
is through the website directly
or through Twitter and LinkedIn.

1281
01:01:09,480 --> 01:01:13,950
I'm probably the most active on LinkedIn,
although Matt and I kind of talked about

1282
01:01:13,950 --> 01:01:18,570
this, uh, my, uh, please don't judge me
for my Twitter presence at this point.

1283
01:01:19,020 --> 01:01:21,930
Uh, we've been growing pretty quickly
here at Nuanced Media and I've

1284
01:01:21,930 --> 01:01:26,175
prioritized maintaining our long term
relationships with our active clients

1285
01:01:26,175 --> 01:01:29,925
compared to, uh, you know, social
media posts and those type of things.

1286
01:01:29,925 --> 01:01:30,475
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, yeah.

1287
01:01:30,480 --> 01:01:31,005
No, I'm with you.

1288
01:01:31,005 --> 01:01:32,925
But don't judge me on
my Twitter feed either.

1289
01:01:35,165 --> 01:01:37,425
Uh, it's just, it's not helpful.

1290
01:01:39,495 --> 01:01:40,335
It's, Yeah.

1291
01:01:40,695 --> 01:01:41,985
I'm more than my Twitter feed.

1292
01:01:41,985 --> 01:01:46,585
I, I feel like I, you know, that's,
that's maybe a book I should write,

1293
01:01:46,585 --> 01:01:47,985
Why I'm more than my Twitter feed.

1294
01:01:48,435 --> 01:01:48,525
Sure.

1295
01:01:48,585 --> 01:01:52,605
Uh, listen, it's been great to talk to
you, Ryan, and of course we will link

1296
01:01:52,605 --> 01:01:57,045
to Ryan's LinkedIn, his Twitter, his
websites, get the, the, the strategy

1297
01:01:57,050 --> 01:02:00,135
guide, all that sort of stuff you'll
find in the transcripts and show notes,

1298
01:02:00,435 --> 01:02:05,645
which are available on the eCommerce
podcast website, ecommercepodcast.net.

1299
01:02:06,225 --> 01:02:08,835
So there you have it.

1300
01:02:09,135 --> 01:02:12,450
Uh, my conversation with Ryan.

1301
01:02:12,510 --> 01:02:14,130
Thanks again Ryan, for joining me.

1302
01:02:14,130 --> 01:02:16,080
It's been an absolute
treat and a pleasure bud.

1303
01:02:16,290 --> 01:02:18,570
And, uh, great to have you on the show.

1304
01:02:19,110 --> 01:02:23,070
Uh, big shout out again to today's
show sponsor the eCommerce cohort.

1305
01:02:23,070 --> 01:02:25,150
Do head over to ecommercecohort.com.

1306
01:02:25,170 --> 01:02:29,340
For more information about this new
type of eCommerce community that

1307
01:02:29,340 --> 01:02:33,390
you can join, be sure to follow the
eCommerce podcast wherever you get

1308
01:02:33,390 --> 01:02:36,960
your podcast from because we've got
some great conversations lined up and

1309
01:02:36,960 --> 01:02:38,820
I don't want you to miss any of them.

1310
01:02:38,910 --> 01:02:44,984
And in case no one has told you today, you
my friend are awesome, utterly awesome.

1311
01:02:45,134 --> 01:02:47,685
It's just a burden we all have to bear.

1312
01:02:47,685 --> 01:02:49,205
Can I get an Amen, Ryan?

1313
01:02:49,625 --> 01:02:50,295
Ryan Flannagan: Amen.

1314
01:02:50,964 --> 01:02:51,725
Hallelujah.

1315
01:02:52,475 --> 01:02:53,685
Matt Edmundson: That's just the way it is.

1316
01:02:54,134 --> 01:02:57,194
Now, the e-Commerce podcast
is produced by Aurion Media.

1317
01:02:57,194 --> 01:03:01,004
You can find our entire archive of
episodes on your favorite podcast app.

1318
01:03:01,424 --> 01:03:04,995
The team that makes this show possible
is Sadaf Beynon, Josh Catchpole,

1319
01:03:05,305 --> 01:03:07,274
Estella Robin and Tim Johnson.

1320
01:03:07,575 --> 01:03:11,955
Our theme song has been written by
Josh Edmundson and My Good Self.

1321
01:03:12,134 --> 01:03:14,924
As I mentioned, if you'd like to
read the transcript or show notes,

1322
01:03:14,930 --> 01:03:20,504
head over to the ecommercepodcast.net
website where you can also sign up

1323
01:03:20,504 --> 01:03:21,884
for our newsletter, coincidentally.

1324
01:03:22,424 --> 01:03:24,134
So that's it for me.

1325
01:03:24,134 --> 01:03:25,125
That's it from Ryan.

1326
01:03:25,125 --> 01:03:26,805
Thanks for joining us this week.

1327
01:03:27,015 --> 01:03:29,205
Have a fantastic week wherever you are.

1328
01:03:29,205 --> 01:03:38,490
I will see you next time.

1329
01:03:38,580 --> 01:03:49,879
Bye for now.