Welcome to the Borderlands Trail and Ultra Running podcast.

My name is Josh Rosenthal.

I'm the host and the founder of Borderlands.

This episode today was for my soul, and I hope it is for yours as well.

Borderlands.

Somehow we're still not learning borderlands.

We still suck at running.

Yeah.

The mission of Borderlands is to be the heart of trail running.

And for a long time, I've expressed that as celebrating the middle and the back of the pack, the people who aren't winning.

And there's a ton of heart there.

But also lately, I've been really excited about the competitor's spirit, and I think deep within that competitive spirit is the heart of trail running as well, and the heart of running and getting excited about the Golden Trail World Series and other stuff similar to that.

But today harkens back to the early days, where we do sort of a deep dive into the soul of this soul sport with mindset.

Coach, coach, coach, coach.

Kev, he just ran the race across Scotland, 220 miles.

He coaches men.

He started a men's group now that has several thousand men participating in Scotland.

And you hear men a lot here, even in this intro.

And yeah, he does focus on coaching mindset for men.

But I think women who are listening, tremendous value in understanding the mindset of a man today, and maybe where a man struggles, maybe where a man could use help, support in some way.

If chicken soup for the soul was a running podcast episode, it would be this one.

And I hope that doesn't scare you away.

Actually, yes.

As much of a joke as that is, this one's for the soul.

It was for my soul today.

It was good.

I really enjoy this guy lives in Scotland, bringing a new accent to the podcast.

First time I've had someone from Scotland on the podcast.

And if you engage all the way through the end, you will absolutely not regret it.

And please, if you haven't already, would you subscribe to the podcast?

Would you follow it?

Whatever platform you're on, if you would give it a rating, you can rate it however you see fit.

But the more ratings, the more helpful.

I'd really appreciate that.

And if you're on Apple or somewhere that allows you to also write a review, doing that is tremendously helpful.

It's too late.

Process of growing this podcast.

It's grown quite a bit since I've started it.

We're closing in on episode 100 when episode one was on my birthday, January 13 of this year.

So quite a few episodes.

And I'm really thankful that you listen, that you engage and you support it.

Okay, here's my friend coach Kev.

Tune in for the whole thing.

There's lots here, and it's very good.

You know, there's a million reasons that we get out on the trail and push ourselves to really these really crazy limits.

I mean, they're without, without end.

We could come up with a million.

I mean, it really is almost no exaggeration.

Why do we go out and run on the trail?

But on that Venn diagram of what makes me unique, what makes you unique, what makes everybody unique, there seems to be this bit of crossover around.

It just feels good for our brain.

We don't know how else sometimes to release some intensity or to even celebrate, and, like, all of the emotions that are, like, kind of pent up inside of us sometimes just need to be expressed.

And a lot of times that happens on the trail, I know that it does for me.

Right now, I'm in Paris, so that's happening.

I'm learning how to do that on the road.

It's much harder for me to find that release on the road because I'm always thinking.

There's always people around me.

I'm always having to contemplate is that person passing me.

Should I try and run faster right now and race them because of you, you know, whatever reason, whatever this competitive spirit is I have in me.

But the trail gives us all this really great gift of something of benefit to our brain and our mind, regardless of what else it gives us.

And today, my guest is Kevin Brown.

He signs his instagram to me as coach Kev.

So maybe we'll see if that's what he wants to go by.

But, Kevin, before we go into too much detail on what you do and all that, first, I want to welcome you, and you're coming to us from Scotland, just south of Glasgow.

I'm glad that you're here.

I've been looking forward this forever since we put it on the calendar.

Yeah, thanks, man.

It's been.

It's a conversation I've been really looking forward to ever since I heard you on the everyday Ultra podcast with Joe Corcyon.

Yeah, yeah, it was a podcast.

I was listening to a law as I was preparing for a big race that I had a couple of months ago, because the podcast itself, that podcast was really relatable.

So I came across yourself talking away, you know, sort of everyday joes, just guys out there, guys and girls out there, you know, you not diminishing the elite crew, but, yeah, certainly giving a massive shout out to the people in the middle at the back, redefining the value of everyone's places in racing.

And I came off that, I was like, I need to find this guy.

I need to find out who is this guy?

Then I learned a little bit more about your community, what you were doing, and I thought, yeah, I feel quite aligned here.

This feels a good fit.

I'm going to reach out.

Yeah, and we're going to get through a good spectrum of stuff today.

But, yeah, when you reached out and I.

And I looked at your instagram reels and the stuff that you're talking about, you know, the way that you're talking to men and, like, the level of encouragement and the way that you can encourage and the way that you can kind of thread this needle on encouragement and say something very specific with a very few amount of words that I found to be quite encouraging.

I'm excited to get into that.

Before we do, let's build some credibility with you in the ultra community, though.

You did something called race across Scotland.

For those of us who don't know Scotland, outside of Braveheart in America, I don't know, and I'm sorry for even saying that.

Tell us about, like, this, the race.

Like, I feel like this is a great way to get to know Scotland by talking about a race that's across Scotland, like, so tell.

Tell us about that race and tell us about Scotland.

Yeah, so Scotland is just like the film Braveheart.

It's pretty famous for its mountain range.

It's what we call the Monroe's.

I think there's something like 282.

I'll get killed if I've got that wrong.

Monroe's so very famous mountain ranges, beautiful scenery and, yeah, the race across Scotland sort of just sums up Scotland in one race, where it goes from coast to coast, it goes from the southwest, beautiful scenery of a small town called Port Patrick, and it crosses all the way across, all over the lowlands, the uplands, the moors, the paths, the villages, takes in absolutely everything.

It's a total of 220 miles and about, I think my watch told me it was about over 30,000ft of elevation.

So it was an incredible run and it is the most beautiful way of just summarizing my country in one race.

How long has this race been around?

Well, that's interesting.

So it's a company called GB Ultras that run it.

They are like the proper kid on the block in the UK in terms of putting on races.

They are a very good outfit.

They do all sorts of fifties, hundreds and then their sort of crown jewel was the race across Scotland, I don't know exactly how many years.

I would say it's in the ultra game.

It's still in its infancy.

And the actual what led me to, surprisingly, was my younger brother, who is certainly in that elite category.

He is.

He wins big races.

He represents big levels.

He went about, was it two, three years ago?

And he set the course record.

I was crewing him.

You know, my big passion.

I love crewing people.

You know, I love crewing my brother.

I think if you've never done crewing, you need to do it, because it is another world of holy shit, you know?

So I crewed Scott and I watched him smash it.

I watched them take the course record, and I thought, wow, could I do something like this?

Because up until that point, I never did.

I'd only.

I think my biggest race was 47 miles.

So I was like, wow, this is.

This would be huge.

Huge step up.

But my brother simply.

And the way that he do operates, he was like, go for it, why not?

And I was like, oh, okay.

So that was.

That was the.

The background to this beautiful race.

So in your instagram message to me, you said 46 years old, you kind of got into running at 39 as a midlife crisis, didn't have the fancy car, and so you started to like, hey, what else?

As I'm an aging man here, what else can I do to prove that I've still got it?

And so you get into running, and it sounds like you had a nice ease into it.

Maybe at time didn't feel like an ease, but you would go longer one year, then longer the next year and longer until eventually you're at this absurd distance, but even still going to this absurd distance the year before that, what was your longest race that you did in the twelve months, 18 months leading up to this thing?

Yeah.

So you've kind of summed up really well.

It was quite a fast transition from started running.

I suddenly thought, wow, where has this been all my life?

It gave me something that nothing else did.

I remember one of my first couple of runs at Eggletta park run, the world famous park run.

It's like five k on a Saturday morning.

I remember projectile vomiting all the way around this thing.

I couldn't pace.

I didn't know.

I was like, are people really doing this shit?

You know?

I was like, wow.

But then, like, almost like, self harm.

You want more, you want more.

And then I sort of dabbled with ten k, and then it moved up to a half marathon, finally getting to a marathon, and then I was sort of, again, watching my brother.

Massive inspiration for me in terms of running.

I was, like, watching him doing these things and I was going, wow, could I, you know, could I do this?

I tried.

I think my first ultra was this 47 miler that I then I would then go back and do another time.

And I remember the pain, the suffering, but I remember the absolute sense of being free.

How incredible that felt to be just sort of in my own head for a bit.

And people.

People talk about coming out their head.

I like to go in.

I like to go in and just put things in its own boxes and its own places and tidy that mess up a little bit.

So, yeah, ultrarunning was like, yeah, this can help me massively.

And then in the side of that, what was happening, what was brewing was a lot of people were sort of inspired by me, which sort of blew my mind, and.

And I suddenly had this thing happening that, you know, I sort of looked behind, went, wow, we've got a lot of guys now.

Really inspired and stuff as well.

So I did the 47.

I did a couple of mountain ultras, which were maybe in the 30 to 40, but with the elevation in it, it was.

It probably equated to quite high miles, if you know, I mean.

But, yeah, I then saw racecross Scotland, I had the conversation.

GB Ultras run a 5100, and I decided, you know what?

You're a long time dead.

Let's just go for it.

Let's just miss those ones out.

I knew that I had a brother that would train me properly.

He would look after me.

And, yeah, we had.

We trained.

Unfortunately, I got injured.

I had to pull out.

But it's interesting, I was talking recently about this.

I probably wasn't as all unmotivated to complete it.

I heard you talk about this finishing thing and the everyday ultra being absolutely driven by the finish line.

I didn't have that when I first signed up, but when I went back, when I was told I couldn't go because of the injury, wow, that was like opening up the door, the cage and letting the dog out.

Because I was driven by something more powerful that I would make that start line the next year, which was August just past, and I would, as they say, handle.

Handle my business.

I love that there's so many things that you just said that I'd want to drill down on.

I think I just got to pick one.

You said when you run that there's a certain type of freedom that you feel, and I absolutely, absolutely resonate that.

I think one thing that you and I share in common, even though we've just met, I think that we're both pretty good at giving words to soulful things.

Things that, like some people, like, oh, I love that.

I love the way you said that.

I would have never said that.

I think I just take a minute here to give words to people to use, to characterize.

What does it mean to be free while running?

And I'll let you go first, and then maybe I'll take a stab.

But what is it?

What does that feel like?

Like, give word to that.

Fill that out.

Like, you know, color that page.

Oh, wow.

Right?

This is going to be good.

And because you're talking to my heart when you say that, you're talking to my head.

You're talking to my heart.

So what does running give me?

Okay, so I'll go straight for what?

How I describe this to most men with men that I work with.

So running allows me, no matter what has happened during a day or during a week, running allows me to just for a moment, park it, start my run, and then process it.

So it's not that the thing goes away, but it allows me to think about it differently.

We understand why that is because of the chemical that it's given you.

So it's fighting with the chemicals that may be going around the stress, and it's fighting them back, and it's creating something more powerful.

But more importantly, running allows me to be a better husband, a better father, a better son.

Now, the best way and the shortest version I can give is when I have running in my life, it allows me to show up so much better in everyone else's life.

I look at how I am as a man around my wife, around my kids, and I know running plays a big part in that.

Now, there's also a caveat to that.

I also need to be careful that that's not the only thing, because right this second, I'm currently not running.

I've got an injury.

I've got to deal with that post, post race.

But what, that's what running has opened, is running has opened that I can be a better man, I can be a better husband.

So running has actually not only given me it, but it now has given me a better awareness of how I show up.

And so now I think I've.

I've almost graduated from what running has given me.

And then it's.

It's allowed me to go up even higher, to, well, I have experienced this through running, and I now know that I'm capable of doing that without running.

And that's.

It's been a beautiful, beautiful thing running since it came into my life.

Especially running on trails, especially running on the hills.

The struggle, you know, overcoming hard things.

Wow.

It's just incredible.

Yeah, I love that.

I think for me, kind of piggybacking on what you say is that, to me, freedom within running is the inverse of what I think freedom might mean, which means I don't have to think about any of this stuff.

I don't need any.

I can just be completely unencumbered, which is a form of freedom.

And that's a good.

Those are powerful moments.

I can't get to that moment of being completely unencumbered without this moment of fully being immersed in it, whatever my problems are.

And so it's like, to me, freedom and running comes because it allows me to process the stuff without distraction.

And in fact, yeah, the beautiful mountains and trails don't distract me.

In fact, there's something about them.

The way that my eyes, unfocused all day, they're focused on the thing that's twelve inches away now I'm focused on, you know, miles and miles of openness.

Like my brain does something bigger.

So there's this perspective thing happening, and then I have.

I have the freedom to face the thing that's hard for me.

Right then.

Yeah.

And if I can face the thing that's hard for me, that's a form of freedom, is getting to face it.

I'm free to face it.

And then, because I'm like you, I've got.

I've got a filing cabinet in my brain.

I've just got a.

I can't learn something new without going to run with my filing cabinet, pulling it open and just putting these things in their place.

I'm free to do that.

And then on the other side of that, and when the chemicals really start to kick in, then I can be free from those things.

But first I need to be free to face those things or to deal with those things or to think about those things.

Yeah, the filing cabinet thing, I think, is something that.

Yeah, I can.

I talk about boxes.

Filing cabinet also.

Yeah.

You know, you're able just.

It's almost like everything, like you said, you unburden everything, everything floats around.

You're able to just.

I'll take that one right now.

Let's deal with that.

Put it in its place.

That one.

Put in its place.

And I always sort of try to describe to people, like, I've been having this conversation with my son recently, who's 25.

I'm encouraging him to try to think about, you know, how he uses his body to help his mind.

And I explain to him, when you finish something like a run, how much lighter you feel, how much clearer you feel, you know, and he's starting to now get that insight, you know, into the incredible power of dopamine and the incredible power of, you know, embracing hard things to feel much easier within yourself.

Okay, another word I want you to expand on.

Cleaner.

I think I resonate with it on like, a visceral level, but help give words to that.

Like, I think, I think I come back from a race.

I do feel like a cleanliness, but maybe I can't put words to it.

Help put words to that.

Well, so what do, what do I mean with it when I talk about that?

So again, this is something I talk a lot with men around.

So, yeah, if you think about the different things that we can seek dopamine from out in the world, a lot of it is sort of manufactured in different ways.

A lot of it's not sustainable.

A lot of it's not very clean, if you like.

Whereas running, wow.

It is unfiltered.

It is clean energy.

It's beautiful as it runs through you.

There's, there, you know.

Yeah.

You can do so much with it, with, there's no cost.

You're not, you know, hurting people.

Um, the thoughts that you get from it are pure.

Um, it all probably sounds quite out there as I'm describing this.

But as it's clean, it makes you feel clean, it makes you feel free, it makes you feel light.

Um, it's a beautiful thing.

I'm totally tracking with you.

I think that I've heard that to be wary of getting dopamine easily, you any, any, I mean, and I think that's like the heart and soul of addiction is getting dopamine.

Your body realizes, oh, I can short circuit it.

I don't have to go run 10 miles.

I can just look at this or I can just consume this and you get it quicker.

But the quicker shot of dopamine is not the same thing as the dopamine you earn.

And when you earn it.

And maybe this isn't talking about cleanliness, but this is talking about the reward of the dopamine after the hard run or that comes to you in the middle of the run.

That depth of happiness and the cleanliness of it.

Is that like.

Yeah, that I'm tracking.

It's like a clean thing to be proud of, a thing to put on a billboard.

Look what I did I'm so proud of myself, and this is.

Whereas some of the other things that maybe give us that are not those same things.

I drank this much alcohol this week.

I did this or that.

That, to me, feels like.

I don't know, feels rather beautiful.

Yeah.

Yep.

Okay, so you're running across.

You're running across Scotland.

You're racing across Scotland.

How long did it take you?

So, it took me 78 hours in total.

So I started on Saturday morning at 06:00 in the morning, finished on Tuesday around lunchtime.

So 78 hours with 4 hours sleep.

That's incredible.

So 220 miles.

That's a.

That's quite a pace.

And your.

So your brother was out there with you, was family out there with you?

Who was.

Who all was chasing you around?

Yeah.

So my brother and his daughter, little Dakota, she.

She's crazy for her dad's epic adventures.

So she was there and my corner as well.

So they.

They were my main crew, and then I had a couple of friends, and my wife and daughter came out, my mum came out at different places.

So, yeah, I mean, people were really behind me.

It was.

I think they knew this was.

This was a massive step up for me.

And, you know, they would be used.

Everyone would be used to seeing Scott, excuse me, do these epic things and take on these huge challenges, but they definitely weren't used to seeing me doing something like that.

So this was.

This was breaking ground.

But, wow.

It was absolutely incredible.

From extreme, you know, to unbelievable episodes of nerves before it, to extreme lows to new milestones when I was sort of miles I hadn't got to before, to then big highs again, to the sleep monsters.

I mean, I had it all, every bit of it.

Okay, so tell me a little bit about the terrain.

So, again, back to my stereotypes.

Is that fog and rain and not a lot of sunlight.

Like, in August, though.

What was that like?

Were you facing rain?

What was the weather like, even?

Yeah, so that's a great question.

The reason why that's so good is because I crewed this race twice.

So I crewed my brother, and it was, like, boiling hot.

It would be like, you know, Spain sort of heat.

And then I crewed my friend, and it was biblical rain the whole time.

You couldn't see.

You'd no chance to get dry.

So the problem in prepping for this race was I didn't know what I was, what kind of weather?

Because the thing about scottish weather is scottish weather gets quite a wrap for being quite wet, quite miserable.

But the biggest thing about scottish weather is its unpredictability.

So it's either you can't really look beyond a couple of days forecast and it can change.

So right up to the very end, I didn't know if I was prepping for dry or wet weather.

So on the actual event itself, it was dry, then really warm for two days during the day and then got thunderstorms, high winds during the night, which was interesting because during the race they changed the high level route to a low level route.

But I was one of the last ones that got through before they changed it.

But, you know, you know as well as I do, you don't want the low route.

You want that.

You want it all, you want it all the cream.

Maybe in the moment you might think you want the lower route, but afterwards you always want the high route.

Yeah.

So my friend was in it, he got the lower route, he was a bit behind me and he said the second he got told the route was changed, he went, ah, Kevin's going to rub me here, you know, because he knew I was already out there.

So we got some.

We got some sketchy weather up on the hills.

We got some thunder and lightning, but the most part it was really hot.

It was hot during the day.

We had to really make sure that plan, the electrolyte plan, all those things, everything had to be dialed in.

Only a third of the field, 170 showed up to the start line and 60 finished.

So it took out some people through fear issues, heat issues and gut issues, you know.

So the terrain itself is predominantly hills.

It's, as I say, it's.

I think I clocked about 32,000ft elevation.

It's hills, rolling hills, kind of moors were a bit of a kind of path.

You would go through the old village and then the route is.

The route itself is called the southern Upland Way and it's a kind of famous route.

You have two kind of big ones in Scotland.

You get the West Highland way and then you've got the southern upland way.

So the southern upland way is the longest, but it's the least walked.

It's not as popular due to the root.

It can be very overgrown, but thankfully the people who look after the root managed to cut a lot of that back.

So you weren't getting totally destroyed in the legs, but it's barren at times.

Some parts you are really in the middle of nowhere, you know, you've got obviously your map and compass and all that thing, you know.

Thankfully, my watch never let me down.

It was.

It was on point, you know, all the way through the event except right for the very, very.

The very final morning and needed just five minutes charge.

But the navigation on it was excellent.

So, yeah, it was.

It was toughest taste of my life, that's for sure.

So one thing that's blown me away, being over here in Europe, is to find, really, the absence of big game like bears and aggressive stuff like that.

Did.

What do you face in Scotland with that?

And did St Patrick also pray away the snakes of Scotland as well?

Like, are you dealing with snakes out there?

What are you dealing with?

So, predominantly?

You're dealing with cattle.

Cattle in the middle of the night, cows, sheep, things like that.

I did see a snake, a smaller snake.

I don't know.

I think they're called adults.

I think it's adolescent Scotland.

So I saw twice.

I saw one twice.

Although it could have been the same snake in my head, I'm sure I saw it twice.

And it also could not have been there at all.

Just.

There's also that.

There's also that.

But, yeah, predominantly is quite famous for the cows on the southern upland way are huge black animals.

So when you see them in the middle of the night, you don't know what the hell it is.

All you can see is big black shadows with eyes looking back here.

But, yeah, I would say they're more curious.

They will run along with you and it feels like they are chasing you.

So some of the runners, some of the runners in the race shared some stories.

They absolutely freaked out.

They ran the other way, they took detours, whereas I just ran right through the middle of them because I knew.

I didn't want my mind to play tricks on me.

I knew that they were fret.

I knew these animals aren't going to hurt me.

Just go right through the middle and hope that at the very last minute they pop.

And they thankfully did.

Well, what about.

What about aid stations?

Is there anything.

I don't know if you've ever run outside of Scotland, but I am curious, you know, is there any unique scottish fare at the aid stations?

We're having haggis, is there?

You know, what do we got?

What do we have to deal with?

Oh, they will.

The GB ultras races is.

Their races are excellent.

They're.

Well.

Well, I mean, you would think you were at a hotel buffet.

They are impressive.

They have everything.

Oh, that's great.

Probably one of the things that they've become quite, I think, well known for is the small.

The small boiled potatoes, the salted potatoes.

So they're nice and soft.

They've got soups loads of different things.

Loads of cold, to be honest.

What's interesting is I've never used them because, you know, you, you've, you'll understand this when I say this.

You've practiced a nutrition plan so much that everything you need is in the van.

You know, everything.

I guess this was watching my brother doing this.

Everything he practiced would be there and I would have it ready for him.

And I worked in the same way.

So, you know, I've never actually had to use the aid stations, but certainly I know from a lot of runners who come from abroad to those races, they're like, this is really impressive.

They have such a wide range of stuff.

Nice.

Yeah, it's great.

I'm gonna have to look into this race company just out of curiosity, just as a, you know, being a fan of races, it sounds like they're pretty dialed and to, and to be, to execute a 220 miles race with this much high praise on the other side, that's a, that's great.

Yeah, it's got a full time outfit.

They've got something like eight hundred and fifty s, four hundred five one hundred s or 4100s, all sorts of other ones in between.

And then the big one, the race cross called.

Wow.

So, you know, on the other side of this, you talk about how you, you know, you coach other men.

You have this men's group you've also mentioned to me and help me, I'm going to get it just right enough to where you know what I'm talking about, but probably wrong.

Is there a dad's group that you helped, that you built?

Can you, can you tell me about that, what that is and what that means to you?

Yeah.

The reason why I thought it was relevant, because when I learned a bit about your community and what you're trying to do to help people, it made me think a little bit about my own journey.

So when I started to sort of hit this midlife crisis, I was like, I want to do something.

I don't know what to do.

You know, I need, I'm unfit.

I'm in a bad place physically, mentally.

I was lost.

I was really lost.

I don't think I was being, I was carrying a lot of guilt, a lot of shame, just who I was behind this, behind the surface.

So when I started to get my act together, one of the things that I realized was that not every guy maybe has that dogged determination in them.

You know, not every guy has, you know, understands the route out of that situation where they feel pretty, pretty desperate.

So I started a little group called fit ears for dads.

So it was, you know, it was a group not just for dads, but although that was the bigger inspiration behind it, that basically could help men have a safe place, you know, a safe space where it was, it was predominantly on Facebook, so it was a small group where we would just encourage.

I made a couple of rules, which was zero negativity, no promotional stuff.

It was all about lifting each other up, encouraging each other, and sort of just trying to make sure that us guys were okay.

And it really exploded.

It went week from week, it just swelled in numbers.

Till today, I think it sat still over 3200 men, and still now the groups, we won awards for the work that the group does.

We've donated tens of thousands to charity and audition, things like that.

But at the core of all that good stuff, it's men who have found connection, who have found purpose, who found through exercise in different capacities, cycling, running, walking, hiking, gym, that they can feel better about themselves.

And if they can feel better about themselves, they in turn can live better lives.

They can be, you know, better for their partners, their communities, better in work, better everywhere.

So it's been a beautiful, beautiful movement.

I had stepped down from being the sort of founder add in, if you like, because I wanted the group to have its own identity.

That wasn't just about Kevin, I wanted it.

I felt like it was too much about me and not enough about the group.

And it was a good.

It was a massive change for me because, you know, I'd invested so much time, I'd made solid links with mental health charities and things like that, so that the group could stand on its own 2ft.

It could signpost men to better help if they needed it, professional help if they needed it.

But it's, you know, yes, it lives on today.

It's.

It's a fantastic, I would say it's probably been, pardon the pun, the trailblazer and men's movements in Scotland.

And I'm immensely proud for the part that I played in that.

And now that the other men that hold the torch, they carry that forward and they carry it forward beautifully.

What is it that you think it is in you that makes you care about men in this way?

You know what I mean?

And what I mean by that is you talk about maybe not this exact words, but there's some element of purpose that you're steering them toward, and that could be fitness related, but the fitness is not the end.

That's the means to the end, because you've talked about how it helped you show up for your family or show up for work or show up more.

I mean, so I see what you're doing with it.

I'm just kind of curious, like, in you.

I mean, I know you've talked about your personal journey, and this was meaningful, and so maybe there's some element of paying it forward, but just a wide open question, what does this mean to you?

Where does it come from in you?

Oh, wow.

Wow, what question?

I think, truth be told, I think I'm still searching for what this is.

I don't really fully know from the fitness of dads to the coaching I do now to how I try to be in, like, a conversation like this, I try to be authentic.

I think if.

I think if I was brutally honest, I think it's constantly running away from the old me, the younger me that kept getting it wrong.

You know, coming from a place where, you know, using alcohol, using drugs, and making mistakes, letting people down, not being a very good partner, not being a very good husband, not being a very good dad, all of these things.

Not being fully present at work, just letting.

I think when you finally see, you're able to hold that mirror up and say, I don't want to be this person.

I want to be so much more.

I want to give back.

I want to be of service.

I want, if I possibly can, make a difference.

I think that's where that deep fuel for the fire comes from.

The problem with that is when do you ever know that the job is done?

I'm not sure.

I'm not sure I ever will.

Even through running now, we've got a very small group, a little group they do are running together and things like that.

I even see them all now function as those kind of men as well.

So that legacy is now, you know, almost like the leader that I'm trying to be, as I think it's inspiring other men to be lead, become leaders, too.

So we've got more and more leaders as opposed to.

So it feels like the seeds that have been planted are now starting to grow.

Well, they are growing to, and we are seeing much more better examples of men all round about me where they are being authentic.

They are speaking openly about their mental health.

They are speaking openly about the shame that they carry about what they are doing at the weekends or things like that.

And that makes me internally happy that guys are just able to now embrace it, don't run away from it.

It's okay knowing who you are.

It's okay to feel a little lost, but know that I am loving proof that no matter how close you come to, you know, maybe even feeling like you don't want to be here, you can turn your life around.

You can be of service.

You can be.

You can be useful.

You can make an impact.

And that, I think, is powerful.

It's powerful for me.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What do you think in that is?

I mean, I guess where my head's at is thinking of, like, the importance of, you know, a friend.

Like, male friendship for males.

Like, let's assume you've got a partner, whatever.

I'm just talking about, like, a deep friendship, man with another man.

That, to me, is like, the thing that when I don't have a.

Have that in my life, my marriage suffers.

I, you know, I'm still.

I'm still showing up.

I'm still home.

I'm still a dad.

But there's still.

There's some sort of power in and, you know, forgive me.

For the women who are listening, this is, you know, I'll ensure in the intro, I'll talk about how this is probably a male centric episode, though all are welcome to me.

There's power in two men being best friends and being vulnerable with each other and showing up for each other, too.

What do you think about that?

So the first of all, I think what for the female listeners that listen, I think it's actually beautiful that you have said this, because I think for any woman out there that's trying to understand their mandarin better, it's understanding that one of the pillars.

So I talk in mind masters about the five pillars of men, and one of them is connection.

I think connection is vitally important to a man trying to be his authentic self.

A man without connection is in isolation.

And a man who's in isolation, that's not what you want him to be.

You know, you and I both know from having these male.

These strong male connections that we are able to unburden, we're able to sort of articulate something that maybe doesn't make sense to us, but our friend, our true connection, can help us process that and can hold that mirror up back to us and say, I hear what you're saying there, but that's not accurate.

Going to need to call you on that.

Or, you know, I hear what you're saying.

Let me hold space for you a little bit longer.

The thing about, I think one of the things I've learned in this sort of development journey that I've been on this last few years in terms of coaching, men have been using their male connections right back to the beginning of time.

Excuse me.

If you go back to the days of tribes and things where men would sit.

Men would sit in circles and they would sit with the elders, the young girls and.

And everything in between, and they would.

They would analyze maybe an issue that's going on for one of the guys, and they would give feedback and honesty and reflection so that that guy would understand it and he would be able to process it and go on.

Well, I mean, I used to say, we used to have.

Sorry, have a joke, me and my close friends, about.

What do you think our wives think we talk about on a trail run?

I'm like, I bet it's not what we actually talk about, because I know, you know, this.

Like, it would blow our partners minds to hear us.

And at our authentic best, when we are out there on a trail with one of our good, good mates and we are listening, we are holding space for him and vice versa.

And we are being so, so kind and so compassionate for our friend and he feels listened to.

And I just think, I hope so many guys who listen to this, well, if they've been feeling isolated and maybe feeling like they don't know who to turn to and all that kind of thing, you need connection.

And to begin to get connection, maybe you just need to go to a running club nearby.

Maybe you need to go to a gym.

Go visit six gyms till you find one.

That when you walk in, you feel a vibe that everyone's.

Everyone's good with each other.

Maybe it's a hobby you once had when you were a kid and you've always fancied doing, go visit a club, go speak to people, because at the other side of that is real profound connection.

And there's nothing more satisfying and rewarding than being able to know that you've got a buddy that's at your back that you can, you know, share.

And so many men, you know, I know so many guys that are no longer with us, and I can't help but feel that they either had no connection or the connection they did have was, as you mentioned earlier, was all around those quick dopamine fixes, alcohol based, you know, drinking with the boys.

You don't talk.

You don't talk properly when you're doing that.

You don't talk with the boysenhenne on, you know, getting.

Getting wasted, as you do when you're out with the boys in the outdoors, going on a hike, going on a run.

Exactly right.

You don't open.

You don't open that shit.

Up the same way.

And there's something really, really powerful and that tub of connection that if you open it up, it'll blow your life.

It will literally blow your mind.

You mentioned holding space for one another.

I think that's a good one to unpack here.

How do you think about holding space for somebody?

Well, holding space, I guess, is for people who are listening or watching.

Holding space is this right here where we've got.

You've got one guy, one person.

It could be because this is equally applicable to women where someone's asking you something and they are intently, carefully listening to your answer.

They care about your response.

So for me to hold space for someone is for me to, you know, I'm not sitting on my phone.

I'm not sitting about thinking about other things.

I'm not looking for him to him or her to finish a sentence so that I can jump in with, oh, yeah.

Well, I also thought that it's really listening.

How does this make this person feel?

What is it that this person's trying to tell you that they're maybe finding difficult in doing?

The only way you'd be able to get to those answers is by holding space.

So creating a.

I like to call it a bubble.

So you create a bubble that both of you can coexist in without ego and that you can just listen.

And part of holding space, there is a little bit of feedback and reflection, but that's also done in a really compassionate way.

It's not done to, you know, make that person think, well, I'm never going to speak to them.

I'm never going to open up to them again.

You know, they really cut me.

I think, you know, I think we go through so much of a life not properly listening.

You know, we want more kids, we want more partners.

We want people to open up to us, but we don't.

We don't truly listen.

A lot of the time, we're distracted by devices.

You know, we're distracted by everything else.

So the person feels that.

They feel that energy.

But when you hold space properly, the only energy they feel is that it's time to open up.

It's time to just say what?

Say what you need to say, feel what you need to feel.

Yeah, there's a really kind of powerful image.

Or, like, that comes to mind as you talk about that.

Like, the idea of another person being active, like, actively creating space for me.

Like, I don't even know the best way to word it, but, like, that they're doing something on my behalf.

Yes.

And it's intentional.

And they could be looking at their device and they could be doing, they could be doing a thousand other things and they're in that moment.

They're choosing to push those things aside for me and vice versa.

But that idea of someone is being active on my behalf.

It's like a, it's like a feeling of safety and at the same time, like a feeling of.

I feel valuable.

Yeah.

And then it makes me want to.

Makes me want to talk.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's good.

All right, so as we wind down here, I mean, what's, what's the dream?

What's the coach Kevin Brown dream?

What do you talked about the things that you love, but you've got the coaching.

Is it a coaching business?

Like, what's, what's the dream right now for you?

Where are you going with all this?

Poor, you know, I'm not sure.

I know.

I used to, so, like, a lot of the guys on the fetish of ads page used to talk a lot, but me being the goals guy, so I've always got goals and big goal orientated and usually revolves around, you know, what races I want to do and things like that.

But over the last two years, the goals have developed into, you know, there's a bit of my developmental goals in terms of learning and development as well as, as well as the fitness and the racing goals.

And then over the last, I would say, six months, I've had a bit of a change in mindset.

I don't think those are the goals.

I think I'm the goal.

I'm the goal.

I am a transformational goal in itself because, like, this conversation right now would never have happened a few years ago.

Every single thing that I'm doing, every single thing that I'm experiencing at the moment is all part of this journey, and it's all part of experiencing new things.

All of these experiences would not have happened had I not decided to change my life and to want more from my life.

And I've lost a lot of people along the way.

Because when, you know what they say, when you start to change, not everyone's coming with you.

No, everyone's coming with you.

Change is uncomfortable for a lot of people.

And sometimes you can become the bad guy, you can become the narrative.

And I learned to be okay with that a long time ago because how will I judge if what I'm changing into is good?

Well, I guess I look at my wife's face when I'm, when I come in from work or she comes in from work I see the smile, I see the warmth when I tell my daughter I love her.

When I, when my son now allows me to hold space and take him to the gym and show him that he can be confident in that environment and he'll be okay.

And I'm right there by his side.

It's when a guy comes through the door and he's come to me with anxiety or issues, anger, alcohol, whatever it is.

I think, yeah, I mean, I think I know I'm heading in the right direction.

Where is that destination?

I'm actually finally okay with saying I don't know.

I don't know.

And it's going to be really cool to find out.

I think that's, that's such a perfect tie in to the, to the ultra running connection here as well.

It's like you spend so many, so much time, your ambition toward the racing across Scotland, race across Scotland, and then it's over.

And you have to, I mean, there's a real discussion to be had about the post big goal depression, you know, or funk or the.

Yeah.

And so sometimes, and this is where I'm at, just in running, is that sometimes there's, there's not another thing.

Even no matter how bad you want it, you're going to go through a season where there's just not another.

For me, it was the zion hundred miler.

There's some other stuff I hope to do.

I'm just not in a position in life to do much endurance training.

I'm, you know, I'm running 15 to 25 miles a week along the river here in Paris.

I don't have the time to do the type of running that I would normally like.

So sometimes we're in seasons of like, you have to be okay with the 1ft in front of the other.

That in a good way.

I'm living for today right now.

I mean, I just have to be happy with today because I don't, I don't exactly know what the next thing is.

It's easy not to.

I like what you just said there because.

Yeah.

That I am in the exact same spot.

I'm in the exact same spot.

I can't run at the moment.

I tried.

I get told from the physio this morning.

You're already.

Yeah.

Like, whoa, whoa.

And I was like, okay.

And he's like, we need you back right off.

And, and I went, and usually I would, I would, oh.

Oh my God.

You know, and I was like, I'm okay with that.

I'm okay.

Today's a good day.

Um, you know, I've got a lot to be thankful for.

Um, tomorrow will be a good day as well.

It's a my control.

Um, you know, we will fill that time.

We'll be out tomorrow morning, 05:00 a.m.

i'll be out walking, I'll be out getting my steps done, and everything will be okay.

Today's problems are nowhere near as bad as the old problems.

So I'll take these so called problems and we work with them and we'll use them and we'll make use of them.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, I'll give you the last word.

I really enjoyed this conversation, and it, it delivered on what I was hoping it would for me.

But any, any last thoughts you want everyone to know about?

I mean, are you, are you taking on coaching clients right now, or do you call that, are you coaching them, like, give us that high level and, you know, what you're up to there?

Yeah, I mean, predominantly, I work with men now.

I've decided that there's a lot of fantastic coaches out there that work with women and both men and women, you know, but I've decided just to turn my attention to be of service to men.

Men.

And it's mindset.

Coaching.

Not running coaching.

No, not running coaching.

I'll leave that to the running coaches.

Yeah, we men, I want professional men who are maybe really feeling a little bit burnt out and, you know, or men who you want to have a sense of purpose.

They feel about loss, or even men who are preparing for big events and they are, you know, the nerves have kick in.

They're starting to think about dropping out and things.

So I help men in a lot of different settings.

I obviously do.

I do that through a variety of settings.

That's through face to face and online as well as I do a lot of keynote speeches and seminars and things like that.

So, you know, I work with guys through.

Through a range of settings and, yeah, I mean, I think it's good.

Just, it's been a fantastic conversation.

I've really enjoyed it.

A couple of really good questions on there that really know somewhat.

It put me in the back foot a little bit, but in a really good way.

Thinking about, thinking about the past and stuff.

And I guess I would probably just use this again.

I hope some of that stuff helps.

You know, I'm new to running.

I'm still relatively new to running and exercising a whole, so I hope it helps people in a similar boat to me, but also anyone out there that's struggling and you feel like you're at the end, you feel like you're close to giving up.

I hope this little conversation can show you that you are nowhere near out of it.

You have got so much more to give.

I am a walking, talking example that you can turn your life around and be of incredible service.

So don't give up and keep on running.

As you say, that's a perfect ending.

Kevin, thanks for joining me today.

Let's do this again soon.

Thank you.

It's too cold to run.

It's too damn cold to run.

Welcome to the waterland.