Mic check, 122-8-9.

Yeah, looks good.

Six, seven.

Sounds good.

Good.

You look good.

I try to, buddy, get a voice for radio and a face for radio as well.

Well, welcome to the to dad from dad podcast, the show where we sit down with fathers and grandfathers to talk about what worked and what didn't and what we'd go back and tell ourselves if we could.

This isn't about being perfect.

It's about being present.

It's about lessons learned the hard way.

Wins worth repeating and kind words of wisdom that you don't usually learn until years later.

If your dad trying to lead your family well or hope to be a dad someday that leads his family well, you're in the right place.

Today I'm joined by Craig.

Craig, welcome to the show.

Thanks, Lee.

Thanks for having me.

Yeah.

I joked last week because I had.

I had Pete here.

Yeah.

And Pete was like.

I was scrambling on Thursday, Friday to get him here.

I think I topped my last minute.

Yeah, absolutely.

Schedule.

Agree.

So you and I were at the Daddy Daughter dance last night.

Sparkling shine, sparkle and shine.

Yep.

Which was terribly fantastic.

Yeah, it was.

Yeah.

A great way to describe it.

Terribly fantastic.

It was great.

My daughter enjoyed it.

Yeah.

Which I think that's the success of the night, is that she came home, she loved it.

Yeah.

All of the things.

Yeah.

But it was terribly fantastic.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I danced in the middle of an elementary school gym with my daughter, which was great and terribly fantastic.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We, um.

It was kind of an emotional.

Well, probably.

Maybe.

I don't know.

I don't.

I'm not a very emotional person.

But it was heavy for me because it was my last Daddy daughter dance with Kenna.

Yeah.

And it was you.

At least I still have one more.

I know.

Like, this was my official last Daddy Daughter dance.

Yeah.

And the fact they played Butterfly Kisses, like, of all the songs.

Why.

Why is that the choice of, like, play Butterfly Kisses while you dance with your daughter?

That's right.

You know, it was funny.

Ken has.

This year was different, man.

Like, dancing with a fifth grader was different than dancing with a fourth grader.

Yeah.

She's a lot taller.

Yeah.

That's nice.

Nice.

That's one of the things that I mentioned to Charlie is you're no longer standing on my toes while we dance.

Like, you can actually stand up and I can dance with you.

Yeah.

It was funny, though.

I. Ken was.

You know, she was stuck to me.

Is really weird this year.

Last year, you know, typically when we get there, the girls kind of go Their own way, and they go get their face painted or go get snacks or whatever, and then we dance a little bit.

But the dancing is kind of an afterthought.

Yeah.

Last night for Kenna, though, she was, like, glued to me the whole time.

Yeah.

You know, she was way more interested in me this year at the daddy daughter dance than she's ever been before.

Well, she's probably grieving.

It's the one as well, I think.

So she's feeling that same feeling that you're feeling of.

This is our last daddy daughter dance together.

Yeah.

It's interesting for me with my daughter, so I only went to the very first one whenever she was in kindergarten.

And then I. I've had a conference every single weekend for every other daddy daughter dance.

So it's always I call my dad up, and my parents fly down or drive down, and my dad takes her every single year.

And so he was grieving this year because he didn't get to take her.

But for me as a dad, I got to do the first one, and I got to do the last one.

There you go.

Which I was.

I was happy about that.

It was good for me.

Yeah.

Good.

Yeah.

It was kind of comical.

I had this realization I was Butterfly Kisses.

That was.

That was a song that Ken and I danced to, which short tirade here.

Funny.

But the music selection at these things is probably perfect for the girls.

Yeah.

But from my perspective, awful.

Oh, yeah.

Like, it's.

It.

It's a bunch of songs I didn't know, which I. I'm getting older, you know, I'm less relevant.

But a lot of, like, edm, you know, and what that causes is just chaotic, like, almost jumping mosh pitting.

Like.

Like little people.

Like.

Yes.

You know, tiny human mosh pits.

Yeah.

Especially because you have our fifth graders mixed in with kindergarteners.

Right.

Who are half their height.

Right.

All in an enclosed space, mosh pitting.

Right.

It was weird, though, man.

I. Kenna was like, hey, can we dance?

I said, yeah.

And she said, I don't really know how to dance.

And I was like, oh, same.

Me either.

Yeah.

But it is insanely easy.

So we walked over the dance floor, and I, you know, kind of told her how we were supposed to stand, and I was like, look, basically, we just rock back and forth.

Yeah.

That's all we're doing here.

Yeah, absolutely.

And so she's like, really?

I was like, yeah.

I mean, it.

Look.

That's what everybody else is doing.

That's what we're gonna do.

Yeah.

So we Kind of snuggle up and dance a little bit.

And about 30 seconds in, I could tell she's like, getting very, like, disenchanted with this whole thing.

And I was like, yeah, dancing's kind of boring.

And she goes, yeah, I love you, but I think I'm done with this.

I was like, okay, cool, let's go.

Yeah, I'm totally cool with that.

Let's go find the sprites again.

Let's find the meatballs.

Yeah, it was.

It was funny because they had the.

The big bay door in the gym open, and I. I think by the end, 50 of the kids were outside playing on the playground.

Yeah.

So absolutely.

Whatever.

They got to spend time with dad.

Yeah.

So walked away enjoying it.

That's right.

Yeah.

Well,

let's back up a little bit before we get into kind of lessons learned.

Why don't you give us the lay of the land?

So, you know, who are you?

What do you do?

You know, I think one of the interesting things here is what you do now, but what'd you do before?

Like, just give us a little kind of career run up to give us some context.

Tell us about who you're married to.

Yeah.

How many kids you've got, what are their ages, what are their names?

And.

And then, you know, this is a lot of questions.

Hope you remember all of it, but, you know, just how would you describe the season of life that you're in?

Sure.

Yes.

So I'm married to Wendy.

We're coming up on 18 years.

Is this August?

Will be 18 years married.

Awesome.

It feels both forever and like a blink at the exact same time.

Yeah.

We actually both just celebrated our 40th birthdays.

Wow.

Mine was last week.

We went down to Cabo San Lucas and spent the last week in cabo celebrating our 40th birthdays together.

She's 10 days older than me, so for the those 10 days, she is my old lady.

And I remind her of it constantly.

Yeah.

We.

We've been married for coming up on 18.

We've got two kids.

I've got Grayson, my oldest.

He's 13.

He's in eighth grade right now, so we're looking towards next year.

Already we're doing high school planning for him, which feels weird.

Yeah.

And then my youngest is Charlie, So she is 11.

Yeah.

She is same age as your oldest, which is kind of our connection of.

Of our girls kind of growing up together and soccer together and all of those.

Yep.

Those aspects together.

Yeah.

So I am.

I have a couple of jobs, so this.

It's tax season right now.

So I got three W2s that came in this past year.

So the primary full time role is I'm a pastor.

Okay.

Um, so my wife and I moved to San Antonio to specifically to plant a church.

Yeah, that was why we moved down here.

So I met a friend in Kansas City doing undergraduate work together, and we became friends.

And then we found out we were both going to Dallas together to Dallas Theological to do our master's degree, and through that process became closer friends.

And I graduated a little earlier than he did.

And he gave me a call one day and said, hey, want to plant a church in San Antonio, Texas?

And everything in me said no.

And I verbally was like, h. Let me think about that.

Our parents, both mine and my wife's, are back in Missouri.

That's home for us.

Yeah.

And so to move from Dallas to San Antonio, to move four and a half hours further south, I was like, no, no chance.

Do I want to do that.

We had our oldest at that time.

He was about 18 months old.

And so the grandparents, of course, are pulling us back to Missouri.

The next day, a job opened up, actually at school that our girls go to.

Yeah.

And so I was like, okay, let me see if God's doing something here.

And sure enough, I taught at the school for two years as the church was kind of building and launching, and then came on full time in 2015, launched a church and built a church.

And so we're still a mobile church.

We're still doing setup and tear down every single week.

Yeah, we're coming up on 11 years now, almost in the.

In the church setting.

That's the full time.

That's what keeps me mostly busy.

Y.

Aside from that, I'm a professor.

So I teach at a local school here in San Antonio that is ESL students.

So most of my students are not from San Antonio.

I've got students from Honduras and Colombia and Venezuela and a lot of South America that are.

It's a theological education school.

So I'm teaching this semester.

I teach on grace.

So what is grace?

How do we receive grace?

And then how does it impact the rest of our lives?

And then I also picked up a job, additional 10 hours a week or so with my denomination, which is the Evangelical Free Church of America, efca.

So I am the director of church multiplication.

So what that means is for all of Texas and Oklahoma, two states that we cover, I get to walk alongside planters, individuals who are looking to start brand new churches.

From the initial email to assessments to all of those things of making sure we're.

We're launching healthy churches.

Yeah.

All of those three things can mean extremely busy.

Yeah.

But at the same time, although I'm the busiest I think I've ever been in my life, I feel the most joy at the end of the day.

Yeah.

There's seasons in my life where I've been so busy and I'm just dead and drained and just feel like, what am I doing?

Just kind of trudging through the mud.

Yeah.

This season of my life, I. I love where I'm at, both in the career field, in the marriage field, and then in the kids.

The kids, as you know, they.

They change all the time.

And once you feel like you've figured things out, as soon as I feel like, okay, we're on a good stretch and we figured things out, things shift and things change.

It's like you're not the kid that you were like yesterday.

Yeah.

And that.

That's the.

I think the challenge of.

Of just parenting and being a dad is not knowing what the next season is and figuring out the current season just in time for the next season to kind of kick in and change.

As we're.

We're going through transition year of.

We're going to be going from elementary to middle school for my daughter and from middle school to high school for my son.

Yeah.

Both those are big transition years.

Yeah.

And so we're.

We're ready for this next year.

But also little leery and cautious of.

Yeah.

You know, I don't know how to parent a high schooler now.

Yeah.

And having a middle school daughter is very different than having an elementary school daughter as they're growing and developing and changing and all of those things.

So Season of Life we're in is.

Is a really good one.

Yeah.

But the season of life we're in, parenting wise, is so unknown to us.

We're trying to get together with other parents who are kind of in a similar veins as us.

And, you know, how do you guys do technology?

Can you just help us out to kind of walk that ground to figure it out?

So, yeah, it's great.

It's things like this for your podcast to have other guys that are kind of in similar seasons or different seasons and just those pieces.

Yeah, well, you know, when Ty was on who doesn't have Kids?

We talked about technology a little bit, and I think the technology thing is I was reflecting on my conversation with Ty because I think we're.

I mean, the iPhone came out in, what, like, 2005 2006.

Yeah.

It was sometime in the mid-2000s.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then, you know, the iPads, and then just the.

You know, especially now, like the age of AI I think our generation of parents is.

Is the pioneers.

Yes.

For the impact that technology has on kids.

Yes.

And I.

This is a.

This is a funny analogy, but, you know, cigarettes at one time were supposed to cure your cough.

Yeah, absolutely.

You know, they're good for you.

Right.

Right.

They make you feel good.

They help your cough.

They're su.

The menthol is soothing.

Yes.

You know, turns out they kill you.

Yeah.

Right.

Surprise, surprise.

And I. I just.

It's funny kind of to think about that because, you know, cigarettes and technology, there was a way.

There was a generation of people who kind of lived and dealt with cigarettes the same way that we kind of deal with technology.

And I don't think we'll truly understand the impact until, you know, I don't know.

It's weird because the rate at which technology changes these days, I don't know that we'll ever get to the end of the journey.

Yeah.

It's a hockey stick growth right to where it starts out slow, but as technology has grown, it's adapted and changed and.

Yeah.

It's been extremely fast.

Yeah.

Let me just.

The technology front.

We're an outlier.

So I mentioned my son is in eighth grade.

Yeah.

I'm 98.

Sure.

He is the only kid in his class without a cell phone.

Yep.

He mentions that every time he comes home.

Of course.

Yeah.

That he is the only kid without a cell phone.

So my wife and I, we.

We made the decision, and it's been harder and harder and harder as we've kind of gone through that.

You make decisions and it sounds great.

And then practically, how's it working out?

We made the decision to not give him a cell phone until 16.

Yeah.

That was just kind of our rule of what we saw as the use of technology.

It's been so challenging on the social front.

Yep.

So let me back up.

The reason we made that was because we see technology as one.

It's good.

Technology is ambivalent.

It is.

It is not a good thing or a bad thing.

It's dependent upon how it's being used and how we can foster it.

Yeah.

And so we saw it as.

It is a.

It can be used for good, but then there's also so much evil that can come from.

From having access to everything in your pocket.

Right.

And so we decided, let's wait until he's 16 at that point.

Once you get a car, once you have more independence, there's a need for us to be able to know where he is and have communication with.

With him.

We, as the parents that made that decision, now face the backlash of that decision.

And it impacts him on the social front.

Yeah.

To where all of his friends can communicate outside of the school hours.

Yeah.

And now he's feeling punished because he is the singular individual.

From his perspective, whether it's true or not, that he is the singular individual, that he does not have access to his friends and communicating with them, he feels like the outsider.

Yeah.

And.

And it's that, that trade of.

As a parent, how do I balance that?

I see it as for his overall health.

Yeah.

It's good.

Yeah.

Yet I also have to.

To deal with the challenge of he's not getting the social aspects that some of his other friends are.

And so how do we incorporate those into things?

Yeah.

What does that look like for him?

And it's hard.

It's challenging, and I hope we're making the right decision, but ultimately, we don't know.

As more research has come out recently regarding the use of cell phones, there's.

There's a book.

I'll plug it the Anxious Generation.

Fantastic book that, that will.

It hurts to read because it's written from a parent perspective.

With children, the amount of depression, anxiety, and mental illness that we see can be directly correlated to the onset of the iPhone.

Specifically.

Yeah.

The.

The amount of individuals of children in the high school age now that are dealing with the anxiety piece has skyrocketed with technology.

And as a parent, I'm trying to protect my kid as best I can.

Yeah.

And so with that, what are, what are the trade offs that I'm willing to make and for us as a family.

Yeah.

One of the trade offs that we decided was to limit technology and specifically writing the phone.

Yeah.

In the house, my kids have iPads.

Yeah.

So they can communicate in some ways with those.

Funny story.

My.

My son, Cotillion is a big thing around here.

It's like the, the dance aspect of, of going.

It's kind of like a coming of age thing.

It is, yeah.

Yeah.

And so as an eighth grader, you get to go to Catalina.

And so I was joking with my son.

I was like, hey, you know, if you see a girl, you don't have a phone number to give her.

But.

But you can give her your icloud email.

Yeah.

And nothing says, hey, let me follow up with you.

Can you send me a text through my icloud email.

Yeah.

You have to make sure she's a blue, not a green.

That's right.

Sure.

She can text through Apple devices instead of green.

He didn't think it was nearly as funny as his mom and I did.

Yeah.

But that's one of those.

The trade offs of.

Of what we've decided to do.

There's an organization called wait till 8 or wait till 8th, which is, hey, you as a parent are coming alongside and signing a covenant, if you will, of waiting to pursue technology with your child until eighth grade.

And even in eighth grade, it's not.

We're going full into the iPhone, but you start with a dumb phone.

You start with the flip phones that kind of.

We began with.

You start with a razor.

Yep.

And then you kind of transition up to full blown technology.

There's the aspect of as parents and in society.

This is coming from the book the Anxious Generation that we have taken Outdoor activities.

I'm assuming your upbringing was similar to mine.

Yep.

Where every day I get home from school, do my homework, and I'm outside, I'm playing in the woods.

I had so much freedom.

I grew up in a small town in Missouri.

Yeah.

It was like, let me ride my bike three miles downtown to the river.

To where we've limited the outdoor activities for our kids.

Yeah.

And I think rightfully so.

There's a lot of things happening outside.

Yeah.

That I don't want my kids exposed to.

And there's a lot of strange individuals outside.

And so we've taken kind of the freedom of outside and we've limited it for our kids.

Yeah.

But then we've taken the technology and we've just opened it up and we say, hey, play anywhere you want to in this field.

Right.

Which it's probably backwards of what we should do of giving our kids probably some more freedom.

Yeah.

To.

To climb a tree and fall.

Yeah.

To.

To learn how to make a mud pie.

To.

To learn how to dig in the grass and to learn how to do all of the.

The fun outdoor things that we did.

And then limiting in some ways the.

The open field that they have of technology as well.

Yeah.

Man, I'm so glad we're talking about this because Whitney and I have really been struggling with.

We're very similar to you.

Yeah.

And the girls don't have iPads.

Yeah.

They will use my iPad or Whitney's iPad from time to time.

Kenna will use that to group chat with some of the girls in the class and stuff.

And, you know, some of those girls have cell phones.

And have had cell phones a couple years now.

And you know, I, I, no, no judgment for my part.

Yeah, absolutely.

Because I.

A divorced family where your, your kid is absolutely gone every other weekend.

I can understand how you would want your college, your child to have like an ability to, I mean, there, there's, every family has different circumstance and, and a different approach, but we're very aligned with you.

Yeah.

One of the things we've been considering, though, is getting a house phone.

Yeah.

So we have one of those.

Yeah.

Is it, is it like an actual hardline, like a voiceover ip like, or

is it just a cell phone?

It's an old iPhone.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So we upgraded our phones.

Yeah.

And we just took the old iPhone.

Didn't trade it in.

Yeah.

It has no cell phone service.

It is a WI fi only plan.

Right.

And it's, it's a house phone.

Yeah.

And so there's certain phones.

Things that you cannot do.

Yeah.

But there's a lot of things that you can do.

Yeah.

And so even with my son, so he does a lot of after school activities to where the end dates are.

The end times are very fluid.

Yeah.

It's.

Hey, we think we're going to end here, but really we're going to end 15 minutes earlier.

Later.

Yeah.

And so there's certain instances where we will give him the house phone to take with him to school.

Yeah.

Um, which means he can only use it if he's on WI fi.

Yeah.

Um, and we've limited access of a number of programs on there.

Yeah.

The iPhone is actually great at doing that to set parameters and limits on all of those things.

But he can text us and then he can't call us, but he can FaceTime US.

Yeah.

And you can use FaceTime audio.

And it's the same thing as doing a phone call.

That's right.

And so as, as he's grown, we've kind of slowly introduced things like that to where he has to check in with us before he takes the phone.

And then here's what you can use it for and here's what you cannot use it for.

Yeah.

And of course, there's checks and balances to that where there's times he snuck the phone into his backpack and then, hey, you know, you took the phone.

Let's talk through.

Why did you take the phone today?

Like all of those things of normal parenting of just as I do, I try and push the boundaries as far as I can.

My kids are the same way.

They're going to try and figure out okay, you said this, but you didn't quite say this completely.

Let me see if I can do that and push those boundaries.

Is it an individual decision with parents?

Yeah.

Many of our girls classmates have phones, and that's their decision as a parent, and.

Yeah, man.

Good for you.

Yeah.

Good luck.

Yeah.

It's a decision that our family has chosen differently, and that's okay.

Yeah.

If you choose to allow technology to reign free in your household, great for you.

Yeah.

But in our household, we've.

We've chosen something different, and that's.

That's okay.

Yeah.

And it's also one of the things that we've had Kenna over at our house a couple of times, and, you know, as.

As parents, it's one of the challenges of.

Let me.

Let me take with the rules that I have established and the rules that you've established and how to kind of merge those together.

So for my son, whenever he goes to two, for a household that's more open with technology, it's the chat on the way to drop them off.

Yeah.

Hey, for sure.

You know, you're.

You're heading into a household, it's a little bit different.

Rule wise.

We're going to be respectful.

Yeah.

Of their rules, but the things that we've established outside of the specific rules that we've established, but the why behind those rules, let's make sure that those continue forward.

Yeah, that's a great point.

We've had a lot of similar conversations with Kenna, and, you know, it's kind of like, hey, one of the things you have to learn as a human is that you're gonna go do things with people that have different beliefs and ideas as you.

You should.

You should.

You're gonna go to places where people are doing things that, you know, deep down in your heart aren't.

Right.

Yeah, that's.

That's part of living life.

Right.

And just navigating the.

This is a very strong word, but kind of like choosing to abstain, it's like, I can't do anything about, you know, where I am in this moment.

Yeah.

But I can choose to not partake in whatever it is.

Yeah.

And I remember probably about a year ago, we kind of crossed this threshold.

So this.

This is one of those parenting things that if you have, like, really younger kids, here's some wisdom for you.

There will come a time where your kids know all the bad words.

Oh, yeah.

Or.

Or most of the bad.

Yes.

Right.

Yes.

And when you get to that point, it's kind of.

This is gonna sound really messed up.

But it's kind of a cool thing because you.

You kept it away from them from as long as you could, but now you've kind of crossed this threshold into an area where it's like, hey, we know these bad things exist.

Yeah.

And hey, we're going to listen.

You know, this sounds terrible, but it's kind of like we might listen to a song on the radio.

Yeah.

That has a bad word in it.

Yes.

You know the bad word.

Yes.

We don't say the bad word.

Yeah.

We like the song.

It's got one or two bad words in it, you know, or hey, let's watch some PG movies.

Yeah.

Or PG 13 movies.

And it's kind of like PG of the 80s.

Very different.

I let my.

I let kind of watch Smokey and the Bandit the other day.

Oh, yeah, dude.

Yeah.

I like halfway through that movie, I was just.

Because Whitney wasn't here and neither was Cali.

It was just me and Kenna and I was sitting there thinking, like, I am in trouble.

Oh yeah.

Like, did she, like, as soon as Whitney came home was like, let me tell you what, dad, let me watch.

She's absolutely.

She was like, me and dad watched smoking the Bandit and Whitney was like, huh?

Are you serious?

And I was like, it's pg.

Yeah.

I thought, you know, I had no idea that it had all of the sexual Inuit those.

And like, I was like, very different time frame.

Oh my.

Go with ratings.

Right.

But you know, it's just like, it's kind of a cool place to be because you.

What does the Bible say?

Live.

Live in the world.

Not of the world.

Of the world.

Yeah.

And you start to be able to walk with your kids through that.

Yeah.

Where it's like, hey, this is living in the world.

Yes.

Is the world that we live in and we can talk about these things.

Yeah.

There's.

There's an aspect of, you know, how do I protect my child's innocence.

Right.

While not making my child ignorant.

Bingo.

The aspect of.

I'm trying to protect my child's innocence as long as I can.

And the world, I think constantly is pushing against that.

That aspect of innocence of our kids.

Right.

Of trying to.

To take my 13 year old son and make him an adult already in many of the ways of removing his innocence.

Yet at the same time, I don't want my son to be ignorant of.

Of what is out there.

Yeah.

Of.

Of the world.

For, for my son, the birds and the bees talk.

That was a huge moment for him and I. Yeah.

It Was one of those things where I'm trying to protect his innocence.

Yeah.

But at the same time, he needs to be aware.

Yeah.

Of himself.

Of his body.

Yeah.

Of.

Of women and their bodies.

Right.

And how God has specifically established and created the.

The marriage relationship in a physical way to work.

Right.

And so I'm protecting his innocence while at the same time trying to make sure he's not ignorant of what is happening in our world.

And there's.

There's a fine line there and it's hard to navigate.

Yeah.

And there's sometimes where I think I remove his innocence for him unintentionally in order to try and make sure he's not as ignorant.

Yeah.

You know, boys are boys and they're gonna talk.

Yeah.

And 8th grade boys and high school boys, they talk a lot.

Yeah.

I know.

As growing up, I learned all of my.

My great worldly knowledge from the school bus.

Yeah.

That's.

That's where I learned everything.

Absolutely.

Was the school bus.

And so I know that my son is going to be having those conversations.

Yeah.

I know that his friends, like it or not, are going to be in different stages.

Right.

Of life.

Yeah.

And so I want to protect his innocence while at the same time have.

Having him not feeling lost.

Yeah.

In.

In amount of conversations that are around him.

Yeah.

The exposure aspect is a slow road.

Yeah.

And just the birds and the bees conversation was not.

I'm going to drop everything right now.

That's right.

We did it on a drive to Dallas, by the way, which is perfect.

Yeah.

Dad's.

Getting your.

Your son in a car is great because one, you don't look at each other, you're looking forward.

Yeah.

But he's trapped.

Right.

He can't go anywhere.

Yeah.

So we had a nice long conversation, but that wasn't the entirety of the conversation.

Yeah.

It's.

It's a continual.

And just kind of.

Hey, we had that initial conversation, but there's a whole lot more that comes along these things.

Yeah.

And just allowing him that freedom of, you know, the, the world is going to give you answers if you're looking for them.

Right.

As your dad, I want you to find the place that you feel comfortable asking me any question.

Right.

And.

And some of those questions will make me blush.

Yeah.

And.

And that's the.

The nature of.

Of the world.

Yet I want him to have that freedom to come to dad as the safe place.

Right.

To ask any and every question.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I remember my dad had the birds and bees conversation with me.

It's funny Because I vividly remember where we were and what we were.

Yep.

My dad was very involved in the Lions Club.

Yeah.

And the Lions Club had a fireworks stand that they set up around the holidays to raise money to support the club.

And my dad and I worked the fireworks stand one evening together.

We worked it a lot together.

But on one evening in particular, it was just me and him working the stand.

And we were there for, you know, I don't know, four, five, six hours.

Yeah.

And it was, it was great because, you know, every five, ten minutes we were interrupted by people.

And so it kind of created this natural break and conversation.

And, you know, I, I applaud my dad because.

Yeah.

It's funny, my dad listens to this.

I've said that a couple times.

So I.

Highly's dad.

Yeah.

I sometimes I say stuff on here and I don't.

I was really young.

I don't know if he even knows that I remember some of this stuff.

But my dad worked in higher education, the collegiate system for a long time, 20 plus years, and was ultimately the dean at a pretty big state college.

And one of the areas he had responsibility for was freshman orientation, specifically student athlete, freshman orientation.

And I remember four years old, five years old, six years old, seven years old.

There were times where I would go with my dad to freshman orientation for student athletes.

And you know, it was, is, it's interesting looking back on it, but my dad had to give those young men, college freshmen, like my dad gave them an abbreviated talk on sex.

Yeah.

And he talked about, you know, how to have safe sex and all of these things.

Right.

And I was there for that.

Yeah.

You know, and I've said this before, my parents, they were, they were older, in their 40s when they had me, and they always, this sounds like it was really cold, but they, they, they always used a full vocabulary with me.

They, they talked like an adult, you know, and I remember when my dad had the birds and bees conversation, he was very anatomically and language specific.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

I mean, like we were talking about the specific body parts and their exact names.

Yes.

You know, and.

But I'll tell you, I walked away from that conversation with him with all of my questions answered.

And I, in retrospect, I didn't have to go looking for any of that information from anybody.

Yeah.

It's kind of like I rode the school bus a lot.

Yeah.

And if I heard people talking about it on the school bus, I didn't have to like, oh, what are they talking about?

Because I already knew.

Yeah.

Because dad told me.

Yeah.

You know, and so.

I don't know.

That's weird.

I didn't know we were gonna talk about that today, but.

Yeah, me either.

I think that's.

Yeah.

That's a core.

And I promise, as awkward as it was for you to have that talk from your dad.

Yeah.

And it was just.

Or more awkward for your dad to have that conversation.

Yeah.

Like, I was.

I. I remember I scheduled it in my mind, and I told my wife, hey, on this drive, we're going to have this conversation specifically.

Yeah.

And I know my son felt so awkward.

Yeah.

I promise you, I felt a whole lot more awkward having that conversation with him.

Yeah.

But once it was done, it's like.

Okay, good.

Yeah.

Now we're entering into a different stage of.

Of dad and son.

Yeah.

And.

And we have, like, this extra piece that we can even communicate on and.

Right.

Yeah.

We kind of expanded the.

Yeah.

The ability for us to have different conversation, though.

Yeah.

I want to go back a little bit to something you said.

Just.

I just want to touch on it because I have a couple kind of funny things.

I've mentioned this before, but the technology thing and kind of protecting your.

The innocence of your kids.

Yeah.

Um, my spin on that is that protecting their innocence is a part of it, but it's.

It.

That is what it is.

But for me, it's.

I want my kids to be able to be kids.

Yeah, absolutely.

Like, as you were talking about, you know, get home, you go outside and you ride your bike for three miles.

I was just.

When you were talking, I was just thinking about if you've never tried to ride a bike and carry a fishing pole at the same time.

Yeah.

You haven't lived.

Yeah.

You know, Absolutely.

And I. I remember I had a.

For.

For.

I don't know, when I was 7 years old.

8 years old.

For Christmas, I got a hatchet.

Oh, yeah.

And it was like an east wing hatchet that had the wood.

Yeah.

The lacquered wood handle.

I remember that hatchet.

Yeah.

Dude, I carried that hatchet everywhere.

I. I have a nice scar on my finger right here for my first pocket knife.

I got.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I.

It's funny, there was a tree that fell down.

I mean, when I say I, I mean you did, too.

But every day I played outside.

Yeah.

And there was this tree that fell down back in the woods.

And I remember one day I decided I was going to cut that tree in half.

You're building log cabin with my hatchet.

Oh, yeah.

You know, I never finished Cutting that downed tree.

I mean, it had to have been 18 inch diameter, 24 inch diameter.

I hacked on that tree for months

trying to cut it in half at the end.

Your hatchet was probably as sharp as a butter knife as well.

Absolutely.

But your parents probably like, oh, that's perfect.

Then he's gonna spend even more time out there.

100.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But I just think, you know, what used to occupy my mind, and this is something interesting for kids these days, and I'm going to pivot a little bit, kind of to my own life here, but.

And just like the things that kids anticipate today or.

You know, I remember growing up, my anticipation, my mind was occupied with very simple, very simple things.

I don't know how to say that, but, like, I would finish my homework and what I had been thinking about doing that day was, could I find a piece of rope that I could tie around the tire swing?

Oh, yeah.

So that I could pull the tire swing as far back as humanly possible and hold myself there and then release the string so that I could swing higher on the tire swing.

You know what I mean?

Oh, yeah.

Like you're trying to go upside down.

Oh, dude.

I, I, like, I.

There's a point in my life, we had an incredible tire swing in the backyard.

Yeah.

And I remember there was like a week of my life where that was.

I was, you know, almost like Phineas and Ferb or like Calvin and Hobbes.

Like, I'm out there trying to, you know.

And you're doing science is what you're really doing, right?

Yeah.

Physics.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But, you know, I just.

Kids today.

This sound sounds so old when I say that.

Yeah, it does.

Just as soon as you say kids today.

Kids these days.

Yeah.

Yeah.

For me and my kids, it's.

Their life experience is going to be different than mine, of course.

And they're not.

We don't have a tire swing.

They're not going to live that same experience.

But if I can keep them out of.

I don't even know if I can keep them out of Minecraft, If I can keep them out of Roblox, if I can keep them out of Fortnite, whatever it is.

I don't even.

I've never played any of those games.

But if I can keep.

You named them.

Well done.

If I can keep them out of those things, maybe it will free up so that their mind can be occupied.

I think I talked about this before, but the girls came up to me one day and they wanted to build a catapult I think I already talked about this, but I said, no, we're not gonna build a catapult.

We're gonna build a trebuchet.

Yeah, absolutely.

Because physics.

Yes.

Right.

Yes.

Like, trebuchets are way cooler.

Oh, yeah.

And they were like, what's a trebuchet?

I was like, let's watch this history documentary.

Children.

Exactly.

Yeah.

It's like a catapult, but way better.

Yeah.

And so we went in the garage and we built a cat.

We built a trebuchet.

Right.

Well done.

And it's.

It's.

It's funny because on one hand, I struggle with.

I'm going to this effort to protect them and create this freedom so that they do those things.

But I have to remember that requires intentional input on my part, Meaning I have to be willing to say yes when they ask to do the things that I'm hoping that they ask to do.

Right.

Like, dad, can we go in the front yard and ride bikes?

I'm like, that means I have to go out there, you know, because we don't live in a county road.

We live in a neighborhood, and there's traffic, and I want to be out there, but it's kind of like I have to remind myself, this is what I have.

This is my hope.

This is what I've structured it to be.

Yeah.

And I have to be willing to say, yep, let's go do that.

Yeah.

Unfortunately, the easier thing would be to put them on an iPad and let them sit on the couch.

Absolutely.

It is, you know, play Minecraft or something.

Yeah.

Right.

So anyway, it's.

It's that piece of, you know, what.

What were the things that we did?

And then what did we learn from that?

So with.

With your story of trying to take the tire swing and bring it all the way up.

Kids don't have a tire swing.

We're living in a different age.

What did I learn in that.

That moment?

And then how can we kind of recreate those same things and the world that we live in today?

Yeah.

And technology can be a part of that.

You absolutely can utilize technology to do those things.

Yeah.

And it's.

It's just different.

Yeah.

And what are the things that I want to instill in specifically for you?

Just instill in your girls.

Yeah.

Regarding me having that experience with the hatchet and me having that experience with tire swing.

Yeah.

How can we kind of recreate those in today's context with today's technology?

And today's things that we have.

Yeah.

Is that they walk away having some of the similar experiences while doing totally different things.

Yeah.

Those are the things that as, as a dad, I'm trying the best to.

Yeah.

Okay.

You know what?

How can we, how can we do some of the things that I did?

How can I teach riding a bike with a fishing pole?

Right.

What's.

What's the struggle?

Yeah.

My kids need to experience.

Yeah.

I had a really funny conversation with guy that mows our yard.

He's mowed our yard since this house was built.

Okay.

Which was like 17 years ago.

Nice.

And his name's Sergio.

Great guy.

But Sergio called me like a year ago and he said your backyard is in such disrepair that if people could see it, I wouldn't want to be affiliated with.

Mowing your yard as a man, that

just like crushed your soul, didn't it?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I was on, you know, one.

And I was like, sergio, you're the professional.

Yeah.

I pay you to do Sergio.

This is a reflection of you, not me.

Right.

But a couple weeks ago, I came home and Sergio was here, and we were talking about the backyard again.

And I said, sergio, the backyard is in such disrepair because my kids live in the backyard.

There's a piece of 2 inch PVC pipe that's 16 foot long in the backyard.

And to you, it looks like garbage.

Yeah.

But to them, at multiple times, it's been a zip line.

Oh, yeah.

It's been a jousting pole.

It's been a baseball bat, a balance beam.

Oh, yeah.

It's been the center beam of a.

A fort that they built like.

Yeah.

There's a piece of 16 foot long 2 inch PVC pipe in my backyard that looks totally trashy.

And dude, I don't care because they play with it the same reason that there's a shovel and a garden rake out there that just sit in the rain and the sun.

Oh, yeah.

And I don't care because when I look through the back window and they're out there, you know, swinging from a tree, using a garden rake as the lever, I'm like, great.

Yep.

That's, that's, that's why it's out there.

Yeah.

We're going to test our insurance.

But I'm glad you're doing this.

Yeah.

So, you know, it's, it's funny.

I, I wanted to, I wanted to say something.

You mentioned something earlier, and I wanted to just divulge something, which is a couple years ago, I've, I've talked about this on here before, but I, I've had to work really hard over the last Few years to kind of identify the cause of some.

I don't want to.

I said this last time and then I tried to clarify the.

The thing that comes to mind is seasonal depression.

Yeah.

But it's not seasonal depression.

It's.

Maybe, maybe it.

Maybe it depends on how you define a season.

It's not locked to winter, spring, summer and fall.

Yes.

But as a dad, this is interesting.

I've actually.

Okay.

I'm having a revelation.

Maybe it's more locked to the seasons of being a dad or just a season that I'm going through personally, whether that's professionally or whatever.

And I noticed something really interesting.

I fell into this trap of YouTube.

Yeah.

And I. I hope that some other dads listening can relate to this.

Otherwise I'm just super weird.

Yeah.

But I have obsessively watched YouTube videos on things like buying a sailboat, of course.

And living on a sailboat.

Yeah.

And I went through like a four month period where three or four hours a night I would watch videos about sailing.

And at first it felt innocent and it took me a while to pick this up.

Then it was, you know, it was sailing, Then it was getting my finishing getting my private pilot's license and buying a Mooney M20 so that I could fly anywhere I wanted with my family, you know, and then it was buying an Airstream trailer and, you know, quitting my job and living like a vagabond.

Just, you know, then, you know, then it's overlanding.

Oh.

And I haven't done that in about 18 months.

Okay.

Because here's what I noticed.

I started to connect those periods of binging and obsessing over those things with some really unhealthy, just mental stuff.

Yeah.

Because what I was unintentionally doing was I was convincing myself with every episode how unhappy I am with where I am.

Yeah.

You know.

Yeah.

There's a common theme of each one of those, and it's.

Seclusion is release.

Yeah.

It's.

It's lack of responsibility.

Yeah.

Each one of those carries that theme of leave.

What?

I have to go to something I do not.

Right.

Yeah.

And it was just a.

It was just I.

Once I realized that and I stopped doing that, I have noticed I haven't slipped back into that.

I don't know how to describe this, but it's almost like if you, you know, maybe other guys have felt this, but I would almost get panicked.

Like I would get panicked with, what am I doing with my life?

Yeah.

I, I'm.

I watch these videos and I See these people that have this just.

And look, you know, you only see the good stuff, of course.

You know, but I. I see these videos and I watch and I. I see this just exuberance of life and these crystal clear beaches and these mountaintop tent locations and.

And I start to just feel like I am doing it wrong.

I. I don't have it right, you know, and it put me in a really unhealthy place because I got a family, dude.

Yeah.

We're established here.

My kids have to go to school.

Yeah.

You know, I mean, I want them to have a stable home structure.

I mean.

Yeah.

And when I back away from that, I just kind of realized, like, dude, you gotta stop doing this to yourself.

Yeah.

It's funny, before you got here, I got up pretty early this morning and I was looking at Mooney M. 20s on online used airplanes.

And that's why this is so fresh on my mind, because I went in the closet to change clothes before he got here.

And I. I literally said to my.

Because I probably researched airplanes for an hour and a half this morning.

Yeah.

And I said to myself, I caught myself this.

Today's the first day I've looked at airplanes.

It hasn't been, like, weeks.

And when I walked in the closet to change clothes, I said, ah, stop it.

Yeah, you're not gonna buy an airplane.

This is not your.

This is the beginning.

Like, you're starting.

And it just clicked in my mind, and I was like, you don't let your brain be occupied with that stuff, man.

Yeah.

Don't obsess over it.

Be happy with what you got.

Like, yeah, hey, go research.

You know, we're going to South Carolina for spring break.

Your time would be better spent.

Go obsess over what there is to do in Charleston, South Carolina.

Absolutely.

You know what I mean?

I don't know.

Is that hearing that as your friend, I want you to buy an airplane.

Let me just throw that out there.

I think everybody wants a friend that owns and can fly an airplane.

Yeah.

So as your friend, go, you should buy an airplane.

But then at the same time, that's unhealthy for you, so don't do that.

Yeah.

There's the piece.

I think I see it in many roles within my life of we're in a current season, and we can't enjoy the current season we're in because we're always looking forward to the next season or we're always grieving the loss of the past season.

Yeah.

I see within the life of my church of we're currently in a season of growth, and we're looking towards the next season.

And I can often miss what I have in this current season and the sweetness of the current season that we're in in anticipation of the next.

And I see it within the kids as well, of.

I can often overlook that my daughter's in fifth grade.

Yeah.

And next year we're hitting middle school.

And at the same time, I'm grieving the loss of elementary school.

Yeah.

To where I can overlook the current season and the sweetness that we're in.

Yeah.

And I think it's natural for all of us to overlook the.

The joy and the sorrow in the current season.

Yeah.

As we're anticipating the future or as we're grieving the loss of the past.

Yeah.

It's funny you say that.

So I think it's.

I don't know that I have the book here, but I think this is from the book the Four Agreements.

It's a very small book.

Very, very, very good book.

There's.

Or maybe it's.

It may be Jordan Peterson's 12 Rules for Life, but there's a.

In one of those books, it talks about practicing presence, being present.

Yeah.

And they give the example of washing the dishes.

Yeah.

Which, I don't know.

It clicked for me when they said this.

But washing the dishes is a very menial task that you do pretty much every day.

Every other day.

And when you're washing the dishes, 99 or 100% of the time, you're either thinking about, I wish I wasn't standing here because I didn't want to stop doing what I was doing to be here washing the dishes, or what am I going to do when I'm done washing the dishes?

What is this keeping me from doing Right.

And in the book, it talks about one of the things that you should try to wrap your mind around is when you're washing the dishes, just say to yourself, no, I'm washing the dishes right now.

That's what I'm doing.

And when I'm done washing the dishes, I'll do the next thing.

But right now, right now, I'm just washing the dishes.

Yeah.

You know, and with fatherhood, I think I'll give you a kind of a funny example.

The first time that Whitney and I went to SeaWorld when we moved to San Antonio, I very, very distinctly remember this because it really impacted me.

We got there 15 minutes before it opened, which is so me.

You know, I'm like, we got to.

Why we got to leave at this time?

Everybody, if I'm.

I'm super.

If you're on time, you're late.

Yeah.

Yep.

So we're there 15 minutes early.

And we're.

Whitney's on the app game planning for the day.

Yes.

And I said, hey, before we go in today, what tasks do we need to accomplish for this to be successful?

Yeah.

And she, like, put her phone down and looked me square in the face and said, hey, dude, that's not how this works.

Yeah.

And I was like, what do you mean?

And she goes, this is what we're doing today.

We're at SeaWorld, and the day could take us a bunch of different directions, but I'm not going to give you a checklist of 12 things that we need to do while we're here.

And when we're done with those 12 things, we can leave.

Yeah.

Because what.

What that'll do to you is you're going to be like, number thing, number one, check.

Thing number two, check.

Yeah.

And when we get to thing number 12 and we're done, you're gonna be like, all right, guys, let's go.

Right.

Yeah.

And I just remember being struck with, like, maybe just being a results driven person or maybe just maybe just.

I don't know if it's my professional life or just my personality, but one of the things.

Spring break trip this year, like I've said before, this podcast has really been working on me, but we're gonna.

I'm going to spend a couple of days preparing to go on spring break mentally, and I'm going to show up, I'm going to do my best, and I'm going to fail, but I'm going to do my best to show up and say, I am.

I am just happy to be here and wherever the week takes us.

Yeah.

This is exactly what I'm supposed to be doing.

This is exactly what I'm supposed to be spending money on.

If we end up at some tourist attraction and I pay $6 for a bott.

Oh, you will.

That's fine.

Yeah.

That's what we're doing.

This is like, intentionally.

This is what we're doing.

Yeah.

Get over it.

Because I think unintentionally, I make everybody else miserable.

Yeah.

And I. I don't mean to do that.

No, of course not.

But anyways.

Sorry.

Yeah.

Random.

You had James on earlier.

Yeah.

And they are a traveling family.

Absolutely.

And it's fun to just observe them and how they travel.

Yeah.

It's.

I love to watch them.

Yeah.

Whenever they.

They take their kids to foreign destinations, I'M like, that's.

That's awesome.

Yeah.

But my heart is similar to yours where I am a planner, I'm a checklist individual.

Yet it's not usually my checklist that the kids walk away saying, that was fun.

That's right.

It's.

It's usually like we stay in a Dumpy Motel 6 and the Air conditioner is broken and the door is off the hinge.

Those are the aspects that they remember and that they enjoy most.

Comparative to my checklists of things that we need to do and to accomplish.

100.

Thinking back just on my own life, I can't remember many of the trips that we took as a family.

I remember a lot of the drives, though.

Yeah.

I remember a lot of the.

This is boring.

This is not what I wanted to do.

Those pieces.

That's really what I think the bonding aspect of, of road trips are, Are all about.

Yeah.

More so than the.

The destination, even.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You bring up a good point.

Which is, as I reflect back on some of my memories of childhood travel, it's funny, this could be because of trauma.

Yeah.

But you know, because typically traumatic events are stickier in your.

Absolutely.

But what I remember the most about traveling as a kid is when things went really wrong.

Oh, yeah, right.

I remember we went tent camping with my family one time and while we were out doing something, it was just like a popup thunderstorm.

Yep.

The camp got drenched, which meant all of our food, cereal boxes, everything when we got back to camp was drenched.

And I just remember my parents were really frustrated with that, you know, and watching them deal with that.

I remember as a kid, my dad and I used to go fishing In a tiny 16 foot long, 48 inch wide John boat with a Johnson 9.9 horsepower motor, pull start.

And this thing, my dad bought it from somebody.

I watched my dad suffer through so much frustration with this boat over the years.

Yeah.

I remember though, that boat.

A couple things.

My dad likes crunchy peanut butter.

I'm a smooth peanut butter guy, but my dad likes crunchy.

Yeah, it's got to be extra crunchy.

Extra crunchy.

Oh, yeah.

Here's what I remember.

My dad, when we would go fishing, would always pack peanut butter and jelly sandwiches with extra crunchy peanut butter.

Yeah.

Coca Cola in a bottle.

Yes.

And planters peanuts.

And the Planter's peanuts go in the Coke.

You take a couple sips.

Yes.

Put the peanuts.

Saltiness, a little bit of saltiness and igloo, like, you know, one of those old school igloo coolers.

Oh, yeah.

And eat peanut butter and jelly sandwiches with extra crunchy peanut butter.

And I remember going fishing one time with my dad and the boat got stuck on a stump.

Yep.

Big stuck.

Like we're like high centered on this stump.

And I remember being petrified and in for perspective today.

I've been stuck on a lot of stumps since then.

Yes.

But I remember telling my dad, like, dad, you need to stop.

We need to pray.

Like we're.

I am petrified when we're going to die.

We're going to die.

Yeah.

On this little boat in this.

In a very little lake, by the way.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

And.

But you know what's funny is those inconvenient things that happen on trips, those surprises.

The motel room with the janky AC hinge, you know that that's.

Those are.

Those are the memories, man.

Yeah.

And it also.

What do you learn about your dad in those instances?

Yeah.

It's.

It's those pieces of we.

We often feed off of the.

The others that are around us.

Yeah.

And.

And as you're internally just.

We're dying.

This is terrible.

Yeah.

I look to dad.

How is dad handling this?

And it's from that.

Where we get our sense of safety and security from.

From dad.

Yeah.

Of.

Dad's handled this before.

Yeah.

He.

He got us out of the situation last time.

And so then I have more confidence.

Right.

That dad will do this again.

It's the same for our kids.

It's same for our relationship with.

With God himself.

Of having that confidence.

Yeah.

Of.

Because I have experienced this before.

Yeah.

Because I can look back and see that outcome previously.

Yeah.

Now I have more confidence moving forward.

Right.

And it's.

It's in those instances of frustration for us as parents that we have that audience of.

Of spouse and of kids of.

Yeah.

You know, how am I handling the situation?

Yeah.

In a way that is giving them confidence.

Yeah.

For the next situation, as well as giving them an understanding of whenever you face these situations, whenever you go over those stumps now.

Right.

How do.

How did dad handle this?

And how will I then handle this moving forward?

Man, that's such a.

That's such a convicting thing to think about, just a responsibility as a dad.

Because.

The mindset that I want to have is when things go wrong, the adventure begins.

Like, this is where the adventure starts.

Yeah.

You know, it's almost like the trip is not worthwhile until something goes wrong because now we have a problem to solve.

Now we're on an adventure.

Yes.

You know, but I don't look at it like that all the time.

No.

You know, and I. I want to be better about that.

Yeah, absolutely.

My grandfather used to always say that all roads lead home.

Yeah.

That aspect of There is no such thing as a wrong turn.

Yeah.

That eventually that wrong turn will.

Will eventually get you back home.

Yeah.

And just to have that mindset, and I think that's a mindset that we desire.

Yeah.

And then looking at the practical way of how do I operate that.

No, not at all.

Yeah.

A wrong turns.

We're lost and things are not good.

Yeah.

But to have that desire of.

I want to operate in this way.

That a wrong turn truly is an adventure that can begin and ultimately lead us back home.

Yeah.

I heard an incredibly powerful phrase this week from a very, very close friend and.

And colleague that I work with.

He's responsible for all of professional coaching and talent development at the company that I work with.

And he.

He told a story about his grandfather, and his grandfather used to say something to him all the time.

And this guy's name is Dan.

And Dan was telling the story about his grandfather, and he said, you know, it took me years to understand this, but my grandfather used to have this saying.

When I was at the highest of highs, my grandfather would look at me and say, dan, just remember, everywhere you go, it's just like this.

And when Dan was at his lowest of lows, his grandfather would look at him and say, dan, just remember, everywhere you go, it's just like this.

Right.

And for Dan to explain that as he got older, what he understood his.

His grandfather to be trying to teach him is that there are a lot of things in life that are going to happen to you that are completely outside of your control.

Yeah.

But the one thing that you are always in control of is your belief about the situation and your mindset about the situation.

Yeah.

And I just thought, man, what a powerful message, you know, especially because our kids, we.

Our.

Our two daughters, they have two incredibly different outlooks on the world.

Our oldest is an anxious.

She's a worrier.

Yep.

She's got a chip on her shoulder.

Why is this happening to me?

This is unfair.

You know, the youngest one is, like,

just happy to be party mode at all.

Party smiles.

Oh, yeah, you know, c' est la vie.

No problem.

And I've thought about instilling that message to Kenna where it's like, this is unfortunate, but remember, everywhere you go in life, it's just like this.

Yeah.

Right.

And I. I don't know why that just stuck with me.

Man.

But that was a powerful concept to wrap your mind around.

Growing up, my now mother in law was my youth leader.

So both my wife and I are both pastors kids.

And so I had my now father in law was my pastor, and my now mother in law was my youth leader.

And one expression, she always said I hated it, but it was true, was nobody can make you angry.

You have to choose to get angry.

Does that aspect of, you know, as a youth student, it's like, no, that's stupid.

Stop saying those things.

I'm angry.

You made me angry.

But looking at it and understanding what she's saying is absolutely true.

Like, circumstances will happen.

Yeah.

And.

And I get the choice to choose how I will respond to those circumstances.

Yeah.

And sometimes that response is I'm choosing to be angry.

Yeah.

Sometimes that's valid.

Most of the time it's not.

Yeah.

But no matter what happens to me, I do have that responsibility and that choice of how will I receive this and then how will I evidence what my belief truly is of this response.

Yeah.

And again, there's those eyes that are always watching us of trying to figure out, you know, if dad is.

Is cool and calm and collected in the midst of this, then I can probably be cool, calm, and collected in the midst of this too.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, you want to talk about seeing some fear in your kids eyes?

I've experienced this a couple times where I'm trying to think of an example of something that was going on.

I'll give you a good example.

Kids are so funny.

Did your kids ever learn what the low fuel symbol on your truck meant?

I'm.

I'm sure they've seen it.

Yes.

But I don't know if they.

They truly understand.

Yeah.

The.

The attribute of what will happen.

Yeah.

It's funny.

I distinctly remember the first time Kenna ever noticed, you know, the little.

Yeah.

And then low fuel.

Yeah.

Panic.

Immediate panic.

Yes.

Dad, you're almost out of gas.

Dad, you're almost out of gas.

And I was like, no, it's telling me that in very short order we will be out of gas.

But it's given me enough warning that I can do something about that.

Yeah.

We've.

We navigated that.

And even to this day, if she gets in my truck and she looks over, by the way she's always looking at how fast are you going?

Oh, yeah.

Are you using your blinker?

She's a backseat driver.

Yes, but if she sees that low fuel light on, it's immediate.

Dad, you need to go get gas.

She's worried about it.

Right.

And I've tried really hard to say, hey, I have the fuel situation under control.

Yes.

You know, like, I know that the next exit.

I know where we're going is less than this distance away.

And there's a gas station there.

We'll get gas.

But we've been on some of these long family road trips where you're on the interstate.

Yeah.

And that thing comes on and you're like, oh, crap.

Yeah.

I don't know where the next gas station is.

You know?

And on one of these road trips, I remember I'm trying to stay cool.

We're like somewhere in between San Antonio and like Albuquerque, New Mexico.

Yeah.

In the middle of nowhere.

Yeah.

Just you and wind farms.

Yeah.

And I'm watching the fuel go down and I'm looking at billboards and I'm looking at signs and finally I. I kind of lean over and I'm like, hey, I need you to.

I'm talking to Whitney.

I'm like, I need you to help me try to find a gas station.

Like, we're.

I'm kind of getting a little, you know, I'm trying to say it real quiet because I don't want the kids to freak out.

Yeah.

And dude, Whitney starts looking and Whitney's like, how far can we go?

And I was like, I don't know, we got like 50 miles.

He was like, dude, this ain't looking good, you know?

She's like, what if we turn around?

And I was like, we haven't passed a gas station in probably 60 miles back, you know?

And what's funny is the girls finally figured out cuz mom and I's demeanor was like, we're fixing to have a situation, you know, And I. I tell this story just because to your point, I've been instilling them that like, I have the gas thing, the fuel thing is under control.

Yeah.

That's it.

You know, it's a system in place.

We're fine.

But when they realized that the fuel situation wasn't under control and that mom and I were trying to figure out.

Yeah.

They were like, they were freaked.

Yeah.

Out.

You know, because it's a real big

deal at this point now.

Right.

Even though in the grand scheme of things, it's just an inconvenience.

Yeah.

We could call roadside assistance, you know, but it was, it was just very, I don't know, enlightening to me in that moment that like, it's just teaching your kids.

It's kind of like, hey, I am stressed Out.

I'm kind of freaked out about this.

We might run out of gas.

Yeah.

But even if we do, we're gonna be where we will survive this.

We've got snacks.

We'll be okay.

The iPads are fully charged.

Like you guys are watching movies.

Yeah.

We'll figure this out.

You know, but to your point, your kids.

I think a lot of times we underestimate how observant our kids are of the way we show up in moments of crisis, in moments of when things don't go our way.

And I'm glad we're talking about this, because this is really convicting for me, just because, you know, dad, I love you.

You listen to this.

But I. I saw my dad get really frustrated as a kid.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

Get very.

Just angry at the situation.

Yeah.

Because.

And you know what's funny is now that I'm a dad and I'm an adult, I understand his frustration.

But as a kid, seeing him get that upset, seeing him get that frustrated about the situation, it.

It's.

It instilled that in me.

And I'm trying to.

I want to break that.

I want to break that with my kids, and it's hard because I'm simultaneously trying to change myself in order to change that attribute in my kids, and.

Man, that's hard.

Yeah.

And to your dad's credit, what you saw might have been his attempt at change as well.

That's right.

There's that piece of.

Without even knowing.

Yeah.

Dad could have been so much more.

Yeah.

Angry and explosive.

Yeah.

Yet his attempt to.

To change that was the small outbursts that you even got to see.

Yeah.

That's a great point, dude.

Yeah.

It's that aspect of.

Let's.

Let's assume the best.

Yeah.

Of let's assume the best.

That dad was trying his best.

And even in those moments that I did see, there's still the effort that.

That dad put in.

Yeah.

I want to go back to something you said.

We're very similar in our daughters.

You mentioned that your.

Your oldest is high anxiety.

Man.

That is.

That is my old.

That's my daughter as well.

Yeah.

Very much so.

If we're going to any place, she wants to know who's going to be there.

She wants to know where's the restroom located.

She wants to know what time are we getting there, what time are we leaving, what are we doing every single moment of every single day, Just high anxiety in every situation possible.

Yeah.

From your experience as a dad dealing with this, have you found any solutions?

Have you found any Triggers or markers that have been helpful dealing with that.

Not really good.

Me either.

So glad to hear that.

Yeah.

You know what's funny?

I'll tell you what doesn't work.

Yeah.

Logic.

Yeah, absolutely.

Reason.

Yeah.

You can't, you can't reason your way out of an anxious kid like that.

Man.

You know, I guess one thing I would say that we've tried to do is an after action report.

Yeah.

Or like a post mortem of a situation.

You know.

And so I think a lot of times in the moments leading up to that anxiety and then living through whatever the situation is, Kenna is unwilling to accept new information.

Yeah.

She's in fight or flight or she's just overridden with, you know, anxiety.

Yep.

That's Charlie as well.

But afterwards we try really hard to reflect back on.

Yeah.

Hey, do you remember how worried you were about that?

Yeah.

Everything turned out okay.

Yeah.

Like, or, or sometimes the worst does happen.

Yeah.

And revisiting that and saying, well, that didn't go as planned.

Yeah.

But you okay?

Yeah, I'm okay too.

Did we still have fun?

Yeah.

Like, you know, that's the only thing that we've been able to do.

Yeah.

It's.

It's one of those things where there's the aspect of whatever you see yourself in your kids, it can be good.

But that's not what I usually see.

I usually see the negatives of me in my kids.

And, and this is.

I deal with anxiety in major ways.

I am an over processor of most things to where any situation I walk into, that's new.

I've probably already processed through the thousand different options of what could happen.

Yeah.

And I'm usually confident in the worst of those things will happen.

Yeah.

I just express it differently than my daughter does as an 11 year old girl.

She is unchanged, sure of how to express those things that there's the positive of.

She expresses them verbally to dad, which that's great.

I hope that never changes.

To where for me personally, I, I'm an internalizer.

I rarely express things outwardly which can cause all kinds of problems and health concerns and all of those aspects.

But there's that piece of, of her that I see just of me of.

I, I like to know all the details.

I like to be able to process things before I step into things.

And so for us with her, it's getting her to process really.

Okay, let's talk through what.

What are you fearful of?

Yeah.

Walking into this.

Yeah.

What are some of the positives that could happen and then Are we willing to.

To do this?

Let's ride a roller coaster.

There's.

There's all kinds of anxiety and fear with my daughter of riding a roller coaster.

Okay, well, what's the positives of what could happen?

You could really enjoy this and have a ton of fun.

And let's walk through some of the negatives.

You could be fearful and you could scream and cry and get injured and all of those.

Let's watch people that are coming off the roller coaster.

What are their faces looking like?

So trying as best we can to process those emotions that she is feeling out loud.

Yeah.

Has been helpful for us, but it's still not a solution, really, in the midst of kind of what we experience.

Yeah.

I remember in college, or maybe it was right after high school, I haven't talked.

I mean, I've talked a little bit about it, but I had some pretty wild life stuff going on.

And at one point, I was so panicked and riddled with the world crashing in on me that I went and saw a counselor.

Yeah.

Just once.

Yeah.

Just one time.

Yeah.

And there's a lady, and she.

What she did with me was pretty much exactly what you just defined.

And what she made me do was out loud, walk through with her what the worst case scenario would be.

And as I did that with her and I got to the end of it, I had processed like, okay, if this happened, what would that mean?

Well, you know, it would probably mean that I'd have to wait a few years to go to college or, you know, maybe I couldn't afford to go to college or whatever.

Or.

Okay, what would happen if that happened?

I'd graduate a little later and I wouldn't be, oh, you know, and we walked all the way down and, you know, she's like, hey, if you zoom out on your life 40 years from now, you're probably pretty unchanged.

Yeah.

You're.

You know, and like I said, we tried to do that with Kenna, but I don't know if you experience this with Charlie, but there's.

At the age they are, there's this emotional ignorance or the.

The.

The emotional brain can be so much stronger than the logical brain.

Yes.

And as you get older, that's still true.

Yeah.

But the logical brain can speak to the emotional brain a little bit more, I think.

Right.

Yeah.

And, like, there's times with Kenna where there's no amount of talking.

Yeah.

That is going to be able to overcome the emotional response that she's feeling.

Yes.

You know, and I don't know.

I mean, Sorry, I'm kind of rambling, but that's a tough one, dude.

Yeah, it is.

Let's.

You're asking kind of where we're.

What are some of the struggles that we have as parents?

That's one of the struggles that we face right now.

Yeah.

With our daughter.

Is, you know, is there something that we can do?

Is there, Is there a tool that we need in the tool belt to help us parent better?

Yeah.

And right now, we haven't found a solution.

Yeah.

She is a functioning member of society, which is what we hope for.

Right.

But all of the things kind of leading up to that to where she gets so nervous.

Yeah.

For any new experience.

And I like new things.

I like trying new things.

Yeah.

And there's the fear, of course, of trying something new, but the outcome, just from my experience is so much worth it.

Yeah.

That I'm willing to try the new things.

And she doesn't have the life experience yet.

Yeah.

Of trying new things as fun and enjoyable.

Yeah.

She's on the experience side of things and the emotional side of things.

We're trying new things as scary.

Yeah.

And so how to.

How do we bridge that gap between the experience, catching up with the emotional aspect of it?

We're not there yet.

Yeah.

I think not.

You know, just kind of.

I think that Kenna is probably a lot like me.

I, I, I don't know this because I didn't know me when I was 10, but I think I was.

I think I was a worrier.

I think I was obsessed with the details of things.

Probably.

You know, I have to ask my dad about that, but I think I was probably the same way.

Here's what's interesting.

I think part of that is one of the things that drove me to be so successful.

Yeah.

And transitioned at some point.

And I actually, a couple weeks ago, I heard something that was this.

This.

It's two things.

One was this saying that ambition without action becomes anxiety.

Yeah.

Now, not all anxiety, but for me, that was very true.

Which led me down just a little bit of research, and I stumbled across this thing called, like, the open loop concept, which for the last couple weeks, I've been working on this, but I started a, A notes sheet on my phone.

Yeah.

And it is all of the unresolved things in my life.

Yeah.

And you know what's funny is what

would be unresolved things?

What do you mean by that one?

Oh, man.

Well, I don't have my phone.

What's.

What's funny is when I heard that, I thought I have so many unresolved things in my life.

Open the Notes app.

And I was like, what?

What do I have that's unresolved?

Yeah.

You know, and I was expecting to be able to just word vomit, like 100 things.

And what actually happened was I split it into some categories.

And, you know, one of them was I bought a hard drive to back up the.

All the podcast stuff.

It was really expensive and it didn't fit my computer.

Like, it wasn't compatible.

It's my fault.

Yeah.

But it was hundreds of dollars and I was having a really hard time getting them to accept the return.

I finally got the return and I couldn't find a box that it would fit in so I could ship it back to him.

Right.

And this is hanging over.

I only have 30 days to return it and it's like two weeks in, right?

Yes.

So I wrote it down and I said, like, return hard drive.

Yeah.

You know, talking to Sergio about the yard was one of the things.

Like, I need to talk to Sergio about the yard.

Finishing our taxes.

That was one.

Yeah.

And as I went through this list, what I noticed was there was a lot of things that were immediately available for me to fix.

Yes.

To do.

Yes.

But there were some bigger things on there, like finishing our will and power of attorney.

Yeah.

And that's not something.

Big tasks, big task, not a five minute task.

Right.

And you know, the tasks, though, I really.

Every single person listening is going to have different open loops in their life.

Yeah.

But here was what was really impactful to me, my brain and my anxiety.

The aggregated or the cumulative total of not having all of those things written down and in front of me was creating a tremendous amount of unidentifiable anxiety in my life.

Absolutely.

And I felt so much relief.

Yeah.

When I really pushed myself to write it down.

And then it was almost like my brain was able to say, okay, that's everything.

Like, yes.

And my.

My brain was able to just kind of take a deep breath and say, you know, because if you don't write it down like that, it.

There's your subconscious, your mind is like, I hope I don't forget to do these things.

I need to remember to do things.

And I just got to tell you, man, just writing them down.

And dude, all of the things that were in my control, I got done in the last two weeks.

Nice.

And I feel amaz.

I feel amazingly better.

Yes.

And I have tried to keep up with that.

But anyways, I'm sorry, I'm rambling.

It speaks to my heart, I am a systems guy.

I. I love a good system.

I had to read.

It was during seminary.

Getting Things Done by David Allen.

It's an older book.

It is probably the most boring book you will ever read.

But it's all about that.

It's all about taking the things that are in my head and putting them down into a system.

Yeah.

Of, here's what I'm going to do in the next three months.

Here's what I'm doing the next three days.

Here's what I'm doing, the next three minutes.

Yeah.

And then taking.

For me, I am naturally a procrastinator.

Yeah.

And so there's.

There's things that I don't want to do because I think that it's going to be like this big task.

And so I use a couple of different apps now that prioritize all my to dos and it sets them up for me so I don't have the choice to procrastinate.

It's just.

I have to do these things in this order because it tells me to do them in this order.

But that's, that's how I have to operate because I.

There's many times I'll be driving and I'm like, oh, yeah, I need to remember.

And by the time I get home, I've forgotten it.

Yep.

I have to.

I use verbal notes a lot.

Talking into my phone.

Yeah.

Because I have to put it down or else I will completely forget it.

And it's freeing.

It's freeing that I don't have to have the, the mental ability to try and remember these things now.

Yeah.

Because they're already set aside.

That helps me and my personal anxiety so much.

Yeah.

That I don't have to, to try to do these things because I've already done them.

Yeah.

And I think step one for me is writing it down in my phone of here's the things that I have to accomplish in order for me to be successful.

Yeah.

And I love checklists.

I love at the end of the day, seeing all the things that I wanted to accomplish are done.

Yeah.

Like that's, that's successful for me.

Like, even if I don't finish my checklist, I take that checklist item and I move it to a different day.

So then it's like that's going to be a part of my checklist so I don't have to see it.

It's complete and successful for me.

Yeah.

Well, we've gotten into.

We've gotten into some, like, personal productivity stuff.

I'll Just.

I'll leave you with this.

I was.

I was in sales for a long time.

Yeah.

And was.

Did very well in sales.

And what you just mentioned is this is probably one of the most helpful things I ever heard.

Day at a Glance makes a notebook that every day of the year has a page.

Yep.

And there's a guy who's gonna come on the podcast.

His name's Gary.

He was my.

He was my mentor.

He's my idol.

He's the guy I looked up to.

Still.

Still work with him to this day.

And I asked Gary.

Gary is notorious for not forgetting things, not letting things fall through the cracks.

That is like, what his reputation is built on.

People.

Mates mainly, I would assume.

Like, if.

If you have.

If you state, hey, Kenna has a basketball tournament next weekend.

Right.

Gary will remember those things, reach out to you.

No.

Well, yes, but more specifically, he's in sales.

Okay.

And if a customer asks him to do something.

Yes.

Or if he has a deadline or if he sends an email to follow up about an issue.

Yeah.

To your point, what he does is he.

Every single day, he writes everything down, and then if he needs to follow up in a week, he flips forward seven pages or five pages, and he writes it on that day.

And Gary has a rule that at the end of the day, anything that he didn't get done gets written on the next day.

Yeah.

And I did this for four or five years when I was in sales.

Yeah.

Let me tell you what it is.

So funny how just the physical act of having to rewrite something every day that you don't get it done.

Yeah.

Will make you get stuff done.

It's totally different than digital as well.

Right.

The aspect of just education.

You see so many studies of physically writing compared to typing.

Yeah.

How much you retain.

Yeah.

For a good period, probably three years.

I used Michael Hyatt.

He's a business production guy.

He has what's called the full focus planner, which is exactly that you have every single day.

Here's the top three tasks that I want to accomplish for this day.

Yeah.

Now, there's tons of other things I could do, but here's my top three that I want to make sure I get done.

And then you have a weekly review of every week.

You go back and you review the week, but then you're also prepping and preparing for the upcoming week as well.

Yeah.

And you're doing a monthly overview of looking at what I do successfully this past month.

What do I want to carry over into the next month.

Yeah.

Those types of productivity things I think are helpful for me.

Yeah.

I fell off the train and then just my personality.

Once I fall off the train, I'm like, I'm not getting back on it.

I already broke the streak.

I'm not starting a new one.

Yeah.

All right, well, we are coming up on time, but I want to.

I want to close with a question to kind of get back to the core of the podcast, which is great conversation today, by the way.

Yeah.

Had no idea what we were going to talk about, but this has been fantastic.

I've enjoyed it.

But I want to close with kind of a traditional to dad from dad question.

Yeah.

Which is you're 40.

Yes, I am, freshly.

All right.

Okay.

If you could go back 10 years.

Yeah.

And sit down at a table like this with yourself and have a conversation, what would you want 30 year old Craig to know about what was coming?

So just looking back in the past 10 years, on the personal side, I experienced the.

The hardest moment ever of my life with church.

We.

We went through a church split.

It was.

It was gross, it was ugly, it was painful.

It was the things that you hear about that you think will never happen to you.

It was personal.

It was.

It was personal attacks against me, against my wife, against friends.

In the moment.

This was 2018, so eight years ago.

In the moment, it felt like the world was crashing down.

Yeah.

Looking at it now, fast forward the eight years that it has been, it was the best thing to ever happen to me.

Yeah.

I'm a better husband, I'm a better dad, I'm a better pastor because of what we walk through.

Yeah.

So if I could Fast forward back 10 years, it would be exactly that of be prepared for what is coming.

Yeah.

And it's not an enjoyment of the moment, but find the aspects of life in the difficult and in the hard that will change me for the future.

Yeah.

I think in that scenario, it's one of those times in life where I think we all experience it.

I hope to never walk through that again.

Yeah.

But I am so grateful that I did.

Yeah.

I hope that is never again on my plate.

But at the same time, I'm so grateful that I had to walk through that because it has changed me so much for the better that overall it was a positive experience out of extreme negativity and just disgust.

Yeah.

So looking back 10 years ago, it would be.

What you're about to walk through is going to be painful, it's going to be stressful, it's going to strain your marriage.

It's going to strain the relationship with your kids.

My resume was written.

I was about to submit it.

I was about to.

To leave the church.

I was about to make some large, extreme decisions.

And so I would say hold off on those as you walk through difficulties in this.

It is a season, and all seasons ultimately have an end.

And it was a lot slower of a season than I would have wanted.

I wish it would have been the Band Aid, but that ultimately it took around three years for kind of resolve to eventually happen.

Yet in those moments, it was.

It was fear, it was anxiety, it was difficulty, it was strain.

And then the dawn came.

Yeah.

And.

And after that dawn came, I began to look back on it in a different light that I could see in the current circumstance.

So be prepared for what's coming, but realize there is a dawn that is coming after the darkness as well.

Right.

Yeah.

I'm just reminded.

I. I think I said this a couple weeks ago, but it.

It's hard to hear this, but it is very possible that the worst thing that happens to you today is the best thing that ever happens to you in your life.

Yeah.

And that's not.

Not negating that it's painful and hard.

Right.

It's.

I. I look at my hands and I see scars on my hands.

Right.

Physical altercations and difficulty.

Yeah.

Yet I look at them and they're healed.

Yeah.

And then they can be used ultimately for the glory of God and ultimately for edification, building up of others of.

Because of the circumstance I went through, I now have a unique story.

A.

An empathy for others who have walked through similar situations.

And in the moment, though, I don't see that in the moment.

It is painful.

It is hard, and I don't want to be doing this or be in this.

Yeah.

Be patient and.

And hopefully you get to see it.

It's not always the case.

It's not always the case that you get to receive resolve.

It's not always the case.

You get to see how the terrible circumstance that you're walking through is ultimately good and positive.

But we can hold out hope that it eventually will be used for good and positive, while also understanding that the circumstances you are walking through are not good, and it is painful and it is hard.

And that's okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, somebody told me a long time ago that God made scars for two reasons.

Number one is to remind you.

Yeah.

That's the most obvious.

Yeah.

But the number two is it's a physical representation to others of what you've been through.

Absolutely.

And I think that, you know, this.

The podcast has been uncomfortable at times, and I'm sure it'll continue to be because we talk like we talked about last night.

I mean, I'm pretty.

Pretty wide open on here.

Yeah.

But I firmly believe that if there's a scar, that I have a lesson that I learned.

A lesson that you learned.

Yeah.

That by talking about it.

Which is super weird for guys.

Yeah.

It's very non conventional.

Absolutely.

But if my scar, if my, you know, physical representation of something that I've lived through and struggled through, a mistake that I made, can help someone else not make that same mistake.

That's why we're here.

Yeah.

That's why we're doing this.

You see this, the concept within the Old Testament, many times of individuals walking through situations and scenarios, and one of the first thing they do is set up an altar or set up a remembrance stone.

That's right.

You have the.

The old hem here.

I raised my Ebenezer.

Yeah.

The Ebenezer is an Ebenezer stone.

It's a stone of remembrance.

Yeah.

And there's that piece of.

It is a remembrance for me.

Yeah.

But along with that, many individuals will walk past that same stone.

Yeah.

And be reminded of what I have walked through.

Yeah.

And there's that piece of, you know, the, The.

The trials and the tribulations that I have walked through.

Yeah.

Are painful and it impacts me.

Yeah.

But hopefully it will be an aspect that.

That can be used for others.

Yeah.

The.

The journey that we're on is a journey of.

Of sorrow and pain.

Yeah.

And joy and gratitude.

And we're.

We're called to mourn with those who mourn and rejoice with those who rejoice.

Right.

And what I need whenever I'm mourning is someone who can mourn with me.

Right.

What I need when I'm rejoicing is someone who can rejoice with me.

Yeah.

And out of that, we, I think, have a better color to the world.

Yeah.

But it takes individuals like you leave of expressing and being open with.

Not just the good things.

Yeah.

But expressing and being open with, hey, here's where I have failed and here's where it has been a struggle.

Yeah.

For me.

So that we can rally around each other and say, you know what?

Me too.

That's.

That's where I'm at.

And, and we can come together and be like, okay, yeah, there are others, and I'm not isolated and alone in this.

Yeah.

You just reminded me there's a group of guys that individually I'm going to try to get to.

Come on.

And I don't know if any of them are listening, but Philip and Caleb, Eric, Austin, Corey, some of those guys.

Most of those guys are in a very strong community of.

Of fellowship and Bible study together.

And Philip was telling me that.

And you'll, you know, you know the Bible a lot better than I do.

But there's a story in the Old Testament when the Israelites were fleeing or they were on the move, and they.

Did they.

Maybe it's the Jordan River.

They crossed the Jordan river at some point, and when they got to the other side, God said, hey, I want you to hang out here for a little while.

Yeah.

And I want you to go back into the river.

Yeah.

And I want you to get 12 stones.

I want you to stack the stones.

Yeah.

And wait for further instruction.

Yeah.

Right.

And this is super off the wall, but Philip was telling me we were standing in the San Marcos river on a.

On just a guy's float trip.

Yeah.

And we were.

We were picking up river rocks, just doing what men do, playing in the water, you know, skipping them, skipping rocks stuff.

And Philip was telling me that a critical element of what they do in their Bible study is they take time to stack stones together.

Right.

Which is, if I.

If I understand correctly, is basically, you know, once a year, they set aside time specifically to pause and reflect on all the trials that they went through, the steadfastness that they.

That they earned as a result of that.

And they call it stacking stones.

Yeah.

And I.

Man, I just.

I thought that was just such a cool thing that they do.

Yep.

Absolutely.

As men, it's easier for us to look back and stack stones.

Yeah.

It's hard for us in the moment to say, I'm not okay.

Yeah.

And I think that's where.

Where we as men need to learn from the opposite gender is great.

Yeah.

At Things are not okay.

Let's go have lunch.

Yep.

To where as men, we often have the.

The accomplishment piece of us.

The.

I can't express that things are not okay until I make them okay.

Yeah.

And at that point, I'm not going to invite you over to my dirty house.

Right.

I'm going to invite you over once I've taken care of my dirty house.

Right.

It's where really, what we often need is, hey, I'm stacking stones and you're struggling right now.

Watch us stack stones.

Yeah.

And.

And as we're stacking stones, just hear how we have stacked stones.

You can make it through this.

Too.

That's right.

Yeah.

Yeah, man.

So I feel like we could keep talking forever.

Yeah.

Craig, I'm certain we'll have you back.

Yeah.

Before we sign off, I just want to say that, you know, for those of you guys listening, just kind of an update on growth.

Every week we get more and more listeners.

This is the.

This is the ninth episode.

Nice.

Next week will.

Will be the tenth, which algorithmically helps me a lot.

For those of you guys that don't know, podcasts that have 10 episodes or more get algorithmic preference.

Yeah, if you will.

Right.

So next week's episode will be a huge accomplishment.

It's.

It's a real thing at that point, man.

Yeah, that's right.

And so, you know, if you want to keep seeing this thing grow, you know, the only thing I need from you is just share it with people.

Yeah, absolutely.

Share it with people that you think might want to listen.

If you're still with us.

We're an hour, probably an hour and 20 minutes in.

Thanks for still being here.

I'm surprised you're still here, but if you find value in this, share this with somebody, please.

That.

That's all just.

That's all we're trying to do here is just reach more dads.

And the biggest thing, if you don't mind, is subscribing on YouTube.

That's the biggest thing I need right now is just YouTube subscribers, because from an audience engagement standpoint, and what I've learned over eight episodes is turnover.

Like people who actually discover and then listen.

Yeah, the number one way that people do that is through YouTube.

And so the more subscribers that we get on YouTube, the more algorithmic priority we have on YouTube.

And so we're.

It has nothing to do with monetization or anything like that.

It's just extending our reach.

And so if you have a YouTube account, subscribe to the to dad from dad channel on YouTube, because that is what has shown to drive people to Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Play Store.

So if you want to help support in that way, that's the most meaningful thing you can do right now.

And again, shoot me an email.

Check out the website to dad from dad dot com.

Send me an email at leeodad from dad dot com.

I've gotten some great questions for those of you that have emailed.

I haven't forgotten about you.

We've got some guests coming up that are going to be able to talk about some of those very specific things that you sent in.

So stay tuned for that.

That's awesome.

Craig, once again.

Thanks for coming, man.

Thanks, Lee.

Appreciate it, buddy.

See you.