1, 2, 3, 4.

Hello, and welcome to beyond the Desk, the podcast where I take a deep dive into the careers of some of the most influential and inspiring leaders in the technology transformation and operations space within global insurance and insurtech.

I'm your host, Mark Thomas, and every week I'll be sitting down with industry trailblazers who are driving innovation and modernization within the insurance sector.

We'll explore their personal journeys, from their early backgrounds and the pivotal moments that shape their careers to the challenges they've had to overcome, the lessons they've learned along the way, and of course, the big wins that have defined their professional journey so far.

But it's not just about their successes.

It's about what you and I can take away from their experiences and the advice they have for anyone wanting to follow in similar footsteps.

Whether you're just starting out or looking.

To level up your career in the insurance or insurtech world, this podcast is packed with valuable insights and inspiration.

So grab your headphones, get comfortable, and let's jump into beyond the Desk.

Vandana, welcome to the podcast.

How you doing?

Good, Mark, thank you.

How are you?

Yeah, yeah, I'm really good, thanks.

Thanks for coming on.

I know we've been trying to get it in for a while.

Illness and stuff have stopped us.

But look, I always like to go right back to the start of the, of the career and then, and then go all the way through that and, and then we'll pick up some points there.

But, but as a kind of an intro.

Do you want to give the, the guests an intro into you and what you're doing currently?

And then we'll, We'll.

We'll take the journey back.

Yeah, absolutely.

So I am a director in the technology practice at Boston Consulting Group, and I work as a tech advisory technology director, particularly focusing on financial services and insurance.

Yeah.

Okay, great.

So let's, let's go right back to the start of the career.

So I'm always, like, really interested in how people first got into technology.

So.

So talk to me a little bit about that.

Was it something you were into a really early age or like, what, what was the.

What did the, the kind of.

The early phases of that that look like.

So I was born and brought up in India, which really had a very competitive and academic environment going on.

Yeah.

But I wouldn't complain about it right now because that actually then got me geared up for taking my career to a global level.

Yeah.

So with this competitive and academic view, then I got into.

I had this passion of technology.

I actually Got into Indian Institute of Technology, which is one of the prestigious institutes.

Yeah.

And that was the transformative way forward for me.

So as a part of the university, I actually was building chatbots at that time, if I think about it.

So that was like, you know, that then distilled me the passion for software development and that got it all started.

So that's.

That's it.

So you started your career as a.

As a software engineer and, and built from there.

So what did, what did the.

So you did, did you do computer science at university?

So that was a master's in computer sciences.

Yes.

Okay.

And then what did the first.

What was the first role?

What did that look like post uni?

So post uni, the first role was with the Computer Sciences Corporation.

I'm not sure if you've heard about it.

CSC then got taken over by dxc.

Yeah.

So I was a software engineer over there.

And again, I started my journey in India, but then moved on to the United States through csc.

And then I was actually building software for the insurance industry, so for the PNC industry in the us so the core modernization software over there.

So that's where my journey started, not only into technology, but also into insurance.

So that's interesting.

So the journey into insurance was quite early on as well, like in the first few years of your career through csc.

So that was.

Okay, so talk to you a little bit about what that evolution looked like because.

So did you always know.

Well, first of all, how long were you an engineer for?

Did you.

The engineering piece?

For quite a while.

Like what.

What did that kind of evolution in role look like?

So I would say that, you know, it started as I said, you know, it was about seven years in csc where the first four years was the software development part of it.

Yeah.

And then, you know, as a part of that software development, then I exactly knew that, you know, now that I've got the technology acumen, I need to take it to the next level of being a product manager.

Understanding business.

Understanding what exactly the business in the United States require from a PNC software.

So that's where I just took my next milestone, from being a software developer to a product manager and then to a strategy manager in CSE itself.

Okay.

And I know early in your career you kind of.

You evolved into looking at guide wire stuff.

We were talking about it just off camera before the start.

So was that, was that quite a.

Because I know you spent a lot of time doing that, that kind of stuff.

Was that when you started to Specialize in something.

What did that.

What did that look like?

So it's.

After, you know, the seven years of csc, I actually got this offer of moving to uk and I thought, I'll take it as a challenge.

And that move was getting into Guidewire.

So Guidewire at that particular time was trying to expand its European operations.

So you went to work for Guidewire direct.

Okay.

So I went.

I moved from US to UK just to work for Guidewire.

And that was quite a challenge.

That was for me, because it was not only just moving countries.

Right.

It was also moving culture and then, you know, just getting accustomed to a new way of working again.

Yeah.

So, I mean, again, taking it just a step back, what was the.

What was the transition like moving from India into the UK and kind of.

How old were you when you did that?

Was that.

Were you.

So India to the US was just after university.

Then I stayed for seven years in the US and then, you know, I moved to the UK.

So it was almost 2009, I would say.

Okay, so.

And what was that like going to the us that must have been a.

That must have been a big culture shift and move especially quite a young age.

It was actually.

It was quite a culture shift and also, you know, seeing the way of working.

But as I said there, my academic education and, you know, getting educated in one of the prestigious universities had already got me equipped to move to different countries and work globally.

So it wasn't.

I wouldn't say that, you know, it was easy, but I did get used to it quite early, and I actually enjoyed it because I enjoyed the technology part of it.

Yeah.

And therefore that just kept me going.

That's interesting.

You say about the.

So the university thing prepared you for it.

So is that almost part of the course and learning?

It's not just the technical piece.

It's the.

It's the kind of fact that you will almost certainly kind of leave India and go and work in the us, uk, Europe, whatever.

Is that.

Is that.

Is that part of it?

So as a part of Indian Institute of Technology, there are a lot of job offers that come from a global perspective.

So you already know that this is what you want to do.

Yeah.

Okay, interesting.

And so whereabouts did you go in the us?

So I went to the development center for csc that was in South Carolina.

Okay.

So they used to operate this development center which was just doing or building insurance products.

So that was out of South Carolina.

Right.

Okay.

And then seven years after that, you came to the uk.

Um, whereabouts in the UK did you come to then straight to London, just.

North of London, in a place called St.

Albans.

That's where, you know, I then decided I started living over there and I still live over there.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay, great.

So.

So yeah.

So the guide.

So you did you joined Guidewire as an engineer still?

No.

So then I joined as a professional services consultant in Guidewire.

Right.

And that was more about, you know, so Guidewire is a product.

It's a US based product.

Yeah.

And then their view was that you.

I understand the Guidewire business in the US and that's what taking their business and then implementing and doing digital transformations for Guidewire.

So it was actually working directly with the clients and implementing their software for most of the tier one insurers.

So then I stayed with Guidewire for more than seven years, partnering with some of these tier one customers like Aviva lv and then did those implementation programs basically implementing Guidewire for these tier one insurers.

Most of these programs were more than two to three years and I was leading these transformations, which was again a very, very different experience for me because that's when I realized that these are not just technology transformations, these are business and cultural transformations that you are doing.

So quite a good experience for me.

So I imagine it sounds like that was the first time you started to get client facing and actually on client site rather than in a.

In a development center where I guess you might have had some interaction with client, but.

But large, largely an internally facing role.

Suddenly now you're out in front of a client honing your skills around being a business consultant as well as a technology consultant.

So how did that, what did that transition look like?

And was.

Did they, did you give you much kind of training into that or did you kind of just get thrown in the deeper.

It sounds like quite a big shift.

Yes, I think it was quite a big shift.

I was just thrown into it.

Yeah.

The best thing is that I would say that probably the people I met just made me that comfortable in that particular role.

And slowly and strongly I just got into it.

Yeah, yeah.

And I would say that, you know, as I said that it started with RBS at that time, which was in Direct Line Group, did a small claim center transformation.

That was the first project.

And then it just gave me a good view of how it needs to be done, trying to understand the business.

I would say that, you know, the complexity arrived when I did something similar for a Lloyd's Market Inshora.

Right.

And that's where then the complexity of the business trying to Understand that that was definitely a complexity that drove us towards some challenges because again Guideware as a new system wasn't really geared up for the London markets at that.

But then together we gave a solution and then that just, you know, then it just drove, drove me towards the right kind of mindset.

After you've done these many challenges, then you just get used to it.

Yeah.

What did.

So did you spend a long time doing that at Guidewire?

Because I think you went into it back into kind of client side at some point as well, didn't you?

It wasn't really at a client side.

It was still through Guidewire.

It was not about, as I said that, you know, I built some strong client relationship and then they just wanted me as a part of their leadership role driving it.

And then it was more like a second meant from Guideware into those particular clients because they just wanted me to then start leading their whole end to end transformation programs for them.

Understand?

Okay, so, so the, the vast majority.

And then obviously you, you evolved now to bcg.

Was there anything else in between there from Guidewire to the current role?

Yes.

After I had done these client roles, that's when you know my interest in being at the intersection of technology, business and strategy.

I decided to then go for consulting roles.

And then first I went to kpmg, spent four years at KPMG and then moved to bcg.

So I've been at BCG for more than four years now.

Okay, so the last kind of eight years or so it's been in kind of true consulting.

So what was the thought process there in regards to going from a kind of a technology vendor into more kind of business technology consulting?

So as I said there, it's more about.

I enjoy that intersection of technology, business and strategy.

So just being with a technology vendor, I didn't think so that I can make that difference.

It needs to be from a strategic mindset as to what the leaders require and then doing this end to end transformation top down.

That's what I was interested in and that's what I thought that can make the real difference.

Okay, so what is it you say the role that you've got now and what you've been doing more recently, what's the kind of main focus of that?

What type of work is that typically?

Is there a kind of a pattern to the main type of work you're doing now?

Yes.

So what I do mainly is that help our insurance and financial services clients with go to market propositions in technology.

I help those leaders understand that what's the role of technology, how it can help in growth, how it can help in their profit margins.

I help those leadership people make those difficult decisions to go and then whether they have to modernize their software, make those investments into AI and even help them with some of the cost optimizations.

I do run these cost optimization programs for some of the major players, helping them in cost efficiency, particularly 10 to 20% cost efficiency through what's the right way to do it?

Yeah.

So what did that, what was that like the transition then from kind of technology vendor into again, because it sounds like a quite a big shift again from just implementing one product and doing transformation that centers around one product to being a lot more.

A lot more broad in your approach.

Could be technology, could be business.

What did the, what was that transition like?

I always wanted just because I had the passion to do it.

That's the reason, as I said, I was geared up to do this.

I really enjoyed doing it.

And it meant to me that that's the right way to do it.

It felt like, you know, you need to talk to the C suite, try to understand what's their business vision and what are their business objectives.

Then trying to understand that, you know, this is what you want to do in the next five years and what is your technology landscape like now?

What are the gaps in your technology landscape?

Then making the right decision as to they want to be there from a business perspective, say they want to grow two times and for that this is the landscape that you need and then try to help them that these are the right technology decisions that you need.

And it's not only about technology, it's also about the people capabilities.

So then getting it all together, it feels like know at least there is an end to end plan which we then help them take those decisions and we help them take the next step.

Because it's always that.

I've seen that taking that first step is difficult for our leaders.

Do you find that's just that you're, you're almost adding that layer of kind of.

That they may actually know a lot of the answers, but you're laying that extra layer of kind of a comfort blanket around the fact that they're doing the right thing, giving them an additional confidence that what they're doing is the right way to go?

Yeah, I've seen that.

You know, most of the people know about it, but then, you know, when we bring this view in front of them as to what the market is doing, and that's what I think is the advantage of working for bcg that we understand that, you know, who are the leaders in the market?

What do you need to become the leaders in the market?

And then we bring that outside envision in front of the insurers that we help and that just gives them that comfort blanket that we've seen that at other places we've helped others succeed.

So there is just that added confidence in our capabilities.

Yeah.

So I get, I guess by using someone who, a consulting firm that are working with lots of different insurers, it gives them a kind of, a bit more of a holistic view of what's going on in the market rather than just their kind of central view of their world, which is, which is often quite blinkered in regards to what everyone else is doing.

Yes.

So I guess, I guess that kind of leads on nicely.

So what are you seeing at the moment as the.

As the kind of key themes that be quite a unique view of the market.

What people are looking at, what people challenges are, what are you seeing at the moment?

So Mark, I'm sure that you know, you've heard it from a lot of different people in insurance.

Yeah.

What I would say is that the insurance industry is at that pivotal point now where if you don't take those important steps right now, then you would be just left behind.

So that's what we are seeing in the market, that this is the time where you now need to embrace technology.

The technology exists, the tools exist.

Now you just need to implement that.

You should be ready to start transforming.

And in terms of if I think about say the top four things that we are seeing in the market, AI definitely what we are seeing is that it's still the talk of the boardrooms right now.

And the reason for that is that while everybody can see the potential, it's still not scaled like in 2024 met with so many customers where their initiatives had just stalled.

And that was more because they were not very clear on the objectives of what AI needs to do.

And again with a fragmented technology landscape, it was just difficult.

If I look at the statistics right now there is only about 7% insurers in Europe who are scaling Genai successfully, while 67% they're actually just in the pilot stage.

So what I'm seeing from the leaders who are actually implementing Gen AI from an insurance perspective is you need to be very clear on what you want to do with Gen AI.

You need to see where it's going to give you impact.

And the next thing is that you also need to have a good technology landscape.

Which can then accommodate AI.

Because what we are also seeing is that it's very difficult to embed AI or Genai or integrate into if you've got a legacy platform.

And then also once you've decided that you are doing it, then you need to put it end to end in your operating model.

Just doing it on the outset is not going to change anything.

So that's where AI is definitely leading all our discussions right now.

The second for insurance, I would also say, is the people's capabilities that we are seeing now that the technology innovation is coming.

You also need people like that, the skill.

People's skills have to be technology driven, you know, so now it's not only about that underwriters and just need to take risk assessments.

They also need to understand that complicated tools that are there in the market or we are saying that, you know, you need to have to take those decisions.

So you need to have that technology mindset.

And I'm not sure if such diverse set of people exist in the market.

And if it's not, then, you know, you have to train your people like that.

So that's the other thing that we are seeing then third, I would also touch upon core modernization.

Even though we spoke before.

Right.

A lot of UK insurers have already done that, but others who haven't done that, it's.

They're at a pivot that they have to modernize their infrastructure.

And the reason is that because otherwise you'll be left behind.

Your operational costs, your legacy costs would be so much that you'll be just left behind.

Also, you wouldn't be able to use these new technologies, the innovative technologies that are coming.

Yeah.

And if I.

Again, you know, because we've done a lot of work on that, what I've seen is that, you know, where we've helped or we've seen the insurers who've actually done core modernization.

We've actually seen 20 to 25% increase in their revenues.

Interesting.

In their revenues, as well as three to four times faster market products.

You can then create products, create new offerings to the market three to four times faster.

If you've got that core modernization software done and you're not on legacy, because that definitely takes you behind.

So I've got so many questions on that.

So if we take the AI piece to start with, you're right.

I was at the InsurTech conference last week and it was pretty much the common theme of most discussions and I listen to lots of it.

And I think the interesting thing with the whole Gen AI thing is that people are still relatively slow to adopt that.

And then there's the whole agentic AI piece coming behind it which I think is probably the real game changer for people if they can get that working.

Then suddenly you get the consolidation of people and, and time and all that kind of stuff.

Do you think like what, what are you seeing in regards to the, the kind of up the uptake of any, any kind of AI in, in, in, in, in actually providing some people using it to, to create some real benefit?

Is it, is it the kind of the age old thing where people are sitting back and they just don't want to be first, first to go and, and they're waiting for to, to see a few use cases get, get in play and, and, and, and, and see how they pan out and then there'll be a big, big rush to kind of follow suit.

Or is there still just a kind of a real uncertainty on kind of how to use it?

Because that's, that's what I see is that and even myself like you mean I run, I run a search business.

We, we plan to use AI as much as physically possible.

But then you're kind of sitting there like well actually we know we want to use it, but how, like what do we use it for?

And I certainly get the impression there's lots of people that think it's a great idea but they just don't really know where and how and which kind of process horse to kind of back.

Do you see what I mean?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely Mark.

So you're absolutely right that there is a lot of confusion in the market.

There is no direct strategy.

But if I now talk about bcg, we are so much into revolutionizing how Geni needs to be done.

We actually use Gen AI every day.

There are so many different ways that we do it.

But then coming back to our insurance clients, as I said, there are so many use cases where we've already seen that how Genai can effectively increase the productivity.

Say even if I talk about contact center, even if I talk about underwriters in the Lloyds and London markets, with Genai rather than underwriters going through loads and loads of documents, Genai can actually enable extraction of the pieces of information that they need automatically and streamline all that.

But yes, you're absolutely right.

Nobody knows how to do it or there is no streamlined way of doing it.

And that's the reason a lot of companies are doing those pilots because they're again not very confident how to do it.

But also There are some constraints behind it.

As I said, the legacy technology, if you do not have the data, you would not be able to create those models that would then, you know, train from the data.

So those are, those are also the issues over there.

But, and that's the reason the numbers are so less is that it's just 7% insurers who are actually doing it in Europe who have been able to successfully scale it.

Right.

So what does that 7% include?

That includes people that are using an actual scalable use of gen AI for something kind of tangible in their business right now.

Absolutely.

And then those use cases are starting from the business use cases, the operations use cases but also some of our clients are now using Genai to help them in the legacy modernization and the way that they are doing it is reading whatever is there in legacy and you know, Jenny are helping to find out the business logic that's actually there in legacy, extracting it and then you know, helping us modernize into the modernized version of the technology.

So it's interesting.

So they're kind of working it backwards to kind of fix the problem.

It's interesting that you say about the data because certainly in my line of work we've definitely seen a huge, huge uptick in the requirement for data focused roles.

And I mean I had David Tuppen who's the Chief Data officer at nstar on a few weeks back and he made a really good point in the fact that I think actually if nothing else the kind of rise of AI in the last 12, 24 months has kind of highlighted just how much people have under invested in their data estate.

And actually if you don't get your data estate in good working order and there isn't something decent for any kind of AI models to plug into then then it's kind of irrelevant.

Right.

Like you can only use what, what the what's what, what you've got, what you've got in place.

So are you seeing that as well that now suddenly kind of like you say, modern, the, the, the modern, modern data estate, modern technology estate, legacy, etc needs to be, that's now even more in the forefront of people's mind because not only do they need to do the cost saving and cost optimization that aligns with that, but actually if we don't do that then we're not going to be able to benefit from this huge new wave of AI technology that's coming as well.

Yeah, absolutely.

Mark.

I myself have been doing several data strategies for a lot of London Lloyd's market insurers and that's the reason that they now want to scale it.

So it's actually come off the back of the AI movement.

It's just become more prominent because of that.

Yes, because these problems always existed.

Like the Lloyds and London market insurers always had a lot of physical documents.

Yeah.

And now this concept of extracting everything out from a document, giving them that automated streamline information, that sounds like the perfect solution.

But what they are now realizing it, it is something that's achievable, but their technology landscape is not ready for it and they haven't thought about it yet.

But that's where now they need to.

Even so you can't take the next step unless you've got the foundations right.

Yeah.

And that's what is that, you know, we are now helping them understand.

Yes, you can get to that.

The technology is there, as I said, the tools is there, but you need to start doing that transformation.

Right, okay.

So.

So actually it's a case of.

And that may actually be why that number, that 7% figure is so low.

Because it's not actually.

That's kind of what I was trying to get to is, is it a will in the sense, sense of do we want to do it or is there just a risk averse kind of nature to it?

But actually it sounds like lots of people now realize that they do want to do it, the tools are there, they can do it.

But actually they're going to have to hold a little bit until they get their house in order, get all that sorted out and then.

And then jump into it.

So yeah, so what we'll probably see as a pattern is increased focus on modernization, getting data estates into good working order, etc.

Etc.

And then a follow on with kind of adoption of AI and so on and so forth after that.

Because it's just a sequential thing that you need to get sorted out first.

Yeah, absolutely.

I would say that there might be some use cases for AI which might not be very straightforward, like where say pricing risks are involved or regulations are involved.

But then there are others like as I said, contact center efficiency underwriting operations, where definitely we are seeing a lot of potential for gen AI.

So those are like straightforward use cases which you can just start implementing them.

But then, yeah, you need to get your technology in order before you can do that.

This podcast is brought to you by Invector Search.

Building best of class leadership teams in the tech and transformation space in insurance is hard.

You know, you need something more than your internal talent team or your typical PSL recruitment agencies.

But you also don't want to deal with the traditional exec search firms who charge sky high fees and take months to deliver.

That's where Invector Search comes in.

Powered by Invector Group, we combine top tier market knowledge with cutting edge psychometric and organometric testing to secure you the best candidates in under four weeks from brief to offer.

We also include a six month placement guarantee as standard and deliver all of this at a much more transparent and cost effective price point compared to the typical exec search firms.

So no charging you on their first year of bonus or anything like that.

Hiring your leadership team in technology and insurance really doesn't need to be this difficult.

It can be much easier.

For more information, ping us an email at InfoVector Group or drop me Mark Thomas, a DM on LinkedIn.

All links are in the show Notes.

Now let's get back to today's episode.

And you mentioned about the the kind of the core modernization thing which I think has been a common theme in insurance for for a while now.

What what's your kind of view on the market as a whole now in in, in in the UK is we you mentioned a bit and we spoke a bit before we started about that lots of businesses around, especially around core claims platforms and stuff that certainly big players seem to a lot of people have done that.

But what about the stuff that fits around that?

What are you seeing in regards to kind of the percentage of the market that are kind of where they need to be and the percentage that still have quite a way to go?

Yeah, I would say that as we discussed.

Right.

That the core modernization platform, a lot of insurers, as I said, I myself did it a few years back, helped a lot of tier one insurers.

So a lot of tier one and tier two insurers have already done the core modernization.

But that was the core modernization platform.

Now what they need to do is use this transactional data into operational data and start building analytics on top of it.

Start building the gen AI part of it.

Also start building some tools at the front of this core modernization because now it's all about innovation.

It's not about just how fast you can do the claims.

It's also that what about frauds?

What about using analytics to then find out which are better risks?

So it's more about becoming more intelligent rather than just the operational efficiency.

So while the core modernization platforms definitely helps us get the data all together, it also helps us streamline everything.

But then now you know, to remain competitive.

You need to start using the data, analyze it and there are technologies and tools that you can do on top of it.

Yeah, that's what the industry is doing now.

Yeah, yeah.

Interesting.

It still seems like there's, there's still quite a way to go on a lot of that stuff that it's.

And it's.

To me it seems like there's lots of people just, there's a lot of variance in regards to where people are.

People are at.

Exactly.

And so that's going to have a.

I can see that having a real knock on effect to how quickly people can adopt the new technology.

Like for pnc, as I said, that's been more straightforward.

But for the commercial insurers where we had complex and specialized risks, I think that's where I am seeing that they are a bit far behind.

And that's what now they are starting to think about technology and data because those are the places where data is definitely going to provide a lot of value.

Yeah.

You mentioned about the, the kind of skills gap in, in there as well.

So what, what's the, is, is that just, is that just the kind of the, where the evolution of technology a lot.

I mean look, there's a skills gap in, in the whole world around AI technology, right.

Like everybody wants it.

There's, it's only been around for, for a short period of time.

So that, that's, and that's a very obvious skill gap.

But are you, are you finding any of that in that insurers are struggling in any other areas there.

So now the reason that we are specifically seeing in the insurance industry is as you know, right.

That insurance hasn't paced that much in technology as compared to, if I think about other industries.

I'm just comparing it to other industries.

It's been a bit slow in the evolution of technology, but now that you know there are these insuretechs that have come, these innovative tools that have come in the market, that's where we are seeing that we do need to embed these as a part of the technology tool set that's been given to business people like the underwriters.

And while the underwriters would be the best in evaluating risks, it's just this new mindset of using technology that's where the gaps are.

And now what we need to do is, is basically take this business acumen as well as train them from a technology perspective, at least to this level that they understand what AI is about, what technology and tools are about.

So that's the skill gap.

So Those are the skills like this combination of business and technology do not really exist.

And the only way to bridge that gap would be to train your, you know, train your staff to do that.

Yeah, I mean I, I'm actually, I'm talking at a town hall tomorrow for QBE actually.

But the, but, but actually that's all about how can we get our operations people, the kind of four or five hundred people who got in operations to, to be more technology savvy.

So I think what you're saying is, is actually it's not necessarily about the technology skills.

It's about our business people who have historically been purely business focused.

Now understanding that that kind of 10, 20%, whatever the number is of your role is, is going to need to be at least like kind of tech savvy if, if not more tech enabled to, to embrace new technologies and start to understand and become a bit more curious about what the, what the business can use them for.

And I guess there's an adoption piece there like you insurance has been historically bad about having kind of older generation of people who don't necessarily want to change processes and ways of working and stuff like that.

That's like that, that way of thinking is just going to like leave you, leave you drastically behind now, right?

Yeah, absolutely.

So as I said that any technology transformation that we do is not, it's not just a technology transformation, it's basically a cultural mindset that needs to happen.

And unless and until everybody in your organization, mostly business, they do not change, then you will never be able to see the impacts of technology transformation.

So whenever we start a transformation, we always say it needs to be business driven.

It's never a technology transformation, it's always a business cultural transformation that you're doing.

Yeah.

So I guess that, so if we, if we translate that into your career.

So I think there's a really interesting point there and learning is that obviously the conversations you're having with businesses right now are about business problems and how technology, AI or whatever is, it can solve those problems or at least help to solve them.

But then if we go all the way back, you started your career as a software engineer, which would have been very focused on the screen, coding, etc, so that's a really big kind of evolution in your, in your career.

What would you say have been the kind of biggest challenges around, over that period in, in getting to that point?

If, if there's someone listening now who is an engineer or an architect or something like that and, and, and kind vast majority of their time deep in Technology.

What.

What does that.

Because, Because I think that is probably one of the hardest transitions to make.

I don't know if you, you, you agree, but it'd be interesting to understand how that was for you and what challenges you faced in, in doing that.

Yeah, I would say so.

That, you know, obviously in this, my career spanning so many years, definitely there have been a lot of challenges.

Well, I agree to that.

That, you know, moving from technology to business mindset, you know, it has been a challenge, but because of the kind of roles that I got kind of started, getting that value out from the business side of it actually made it easier for me because otherwise you're just focusing on building a part of technology solution unless and until you're able to show the value to the business.

Yeah, for me, I never saw the value of it.

Okay.

Probably as I said, but that's more about a learning or more about, you know, an evolution that I got to.

Yeah, but I understand where you're coming from and that's what, you know, we do see it as a challenge.

Yeah.

Where it's difficult for us to make the software engineers understand as to.

It's not about just what you are doing, it's also about why you are doing it and how you are doing it.

Yeah, that's really important.

Yeah, it's a really good point.

So it sounds like for you it came quite naturally like that actually, because that kind of curiosity around why a business makes money and the challenges and stuff like that.

I get that.

But did you find that quite natural in moving to that?

Right.

It sounds like from even in the early years, you were quite curious about the business impact and stuff like that, rather than having to like really force yourself to do that.

Yeah, I would say so that.

Because I was always thinking about as I was always thinking about that, you know, what's the value.

I always used to think about, you know, what's the value that this particular work would bring.

And that's the reason I always was very curious to understand.

Like even when I was building this PNC software, I wanted to understand as to whether it gave those impacts of it and why we are doing it.

Yeah.

And that's what I would say that, you know, everybody should think about it, that, you know, why are you doing it?

If you're able to answer that, then it becomes more easier.

Did you, did you find that people you work with were the same or were you, were you kind of unique in that sense?

Because, I mean, I've worked with.

Early in my career, I worked With a lot of engineers, and I would say the vast majority of them didn't necessarily think that they were just interested in doing really cool stuff with technology.

Yes, I would say so that.

No, not many people were like that.

And that's the reason I quickly moved.

So you would have seen software engineers who just want to do software engineering and development.

But for me, because it was a different kind of mindset, that's the reason I kind of evolved into different roles, because that's what I wanted to do.

Yeah, yeah, makes sense.

So what would you say, like from.

If you were giving advice to someone now in that.

Who's doing a technology focus role, but because I totally agree that there's.

There's plenty of techies out there that just want to be techies and that's great.

Like you need.

We need lots of people to do that.

But if there's someone sitting in that role now, maybe a kind of architect, developer, whatever it may be, but.

But has really wants to get into, to kind of bigger roles that have a broader focus, what would you say?

The kind of a couple of bits of advice you'd give someone in that.

In that, in that, in that role.

So I would definitely say that, you know, they need to think about not just what they are doing, they need to think about, you know, why they are doing it and how it can give the value to the business and users of what you are doing.

Unless and until the users are able to see that value, it doesn't really gives you the impact.

And it's like with anything.

Right.

Even if I take an iPhone, for example, if the users of the iPhone are not happy with that, it's not showing them the value.

Any features you put in it, it doesn't really change anything.

And that's where I would say that if software engineers are able to then see that whatever they do, they bring value to their end users, then it will just be very impactful.

Yeah.

So how would you, how would you say.

And I guess looking back on your career, how did you get yourself into roles where you were allowed to impact that?

Was that just.

Again, was it kind of fairly natural?

Did you have a really kind of an eye on the fact that you wanted roles that were more business focused?

No, I would say that.

Mark over there, I would say that, you know, I've been very lucky to have mentors.

Okay, interesting.

And that's also one of the advices that I would definitely give is that not only just focus upon what you are doing, but also focus about networking about Meeting people about, you know, finding mentors.

Because it's always good to speak to mentors, not only to take advice, but also probably just exchanging ideas.

I've had mentors straight from, you know, software engineering, then to technology transformations, then in consulting.

I've always had mentors which have, then, you know, helped me give more clarity.

So I actually talk to my mentors not only to find a solution, so their mentors are not for that.

It's more about, you know, they help you, you ask the right questions, they help you give the clarity.

Yeah, yeah.

So that's what I have been doing throughout my journey.

And probably a lot of these difficult decisions I've just been able to take because I got that clarity after discussing with people even, you know, some of my mentors are just like sounding boards.

Yeah, yeah.

Not anything.

I just use them as sounding boards and then they help me ask the right questions and then I get that clarity.

There's a really interesting one.

So, so I think mentors are kind of a, a, a bit of a, an interesting topic because the, the, the, the thing I get asked a lot, even by very senior people is kind of how you go about finding mentors.

Like, are they kind of officially a mentor?

Because like, some, sometimes they don't necessarily know they are that person, but they are.

So how have you gone about working with those people in the past?

Are they, are they people?

Well, talk me through what those people have generally looked like, people you work with, etc.

Etc.

Like what, what, how have you.

Them?

Yeah, no, I wouldn't say only the people who I work with outside as well as inside, so inside the organization, definitely.

But I have had a lot of mentors, even outside, so.

Because the way I see as mentors and I have approached a lot of people and I've said that, you know, I really find your perspectives very helpful and I would want to see that, you know, if you want to be, if you would be open to be my mentor.

I've actually approached.

So it's almost like a.

Official is probably the wrong word.

But, you know, I mean, they kind of know your mentor.

You know that.

And it's almost like a kind of not an arrangement, but you know what I mean, it's an official kind of thing rather than just.

I mean, I've got friends who I kind of use as kind of semi mentors.

They don't.

They're more of a friend, but I use them as sounding boards.

Like you said, they're not really a mentor, but they kind of are in Some ways this is a slightly more, more a kind of official type thing.

Yes.

And I've used combinations like, you know, because I always think mentorship as a two way thing.

Yeah.

It's about, you know, having that relationship.

And it's having that relationship where, you know, it's not only that, you know, I am taking their knowledge, but probably, you know, they're also learning something from me.

Yeah.

So I've always had that two way relationship where I would say that, you know, in some cases even I've helped them.

So it's more about a discussion going both ways.

Yeah, yeah.

But not only it is, it's been official titles also that yes, you are my mentor.

Would you like to be my mentor?

But even on the other hand, just semi roles that, you know, I want to network with you and now it's more like, you know, just exchanging our ideas and using each other as the sounding board.

Yeah, yeah.

Interesting.

And, and would you, would you say as again like a kind of piece of advice?

Like actually if you're, if you're in those types of roles, getting people who can help you in that as like a sounding board or give you advice, keep you on track, that kind of stuff.

That, that is that it sounds like that's proved quite val for me.

It's been very valuable from, as I said, from a very early part of my career, I actually saw the value.

Yeah.

And I've done that.

Rather, if I have to give an advice to myself, like when I started, I would have said that, you know, started from the very beginning.

It's not only about the work that you do, it's also about surrounding yourself with people who can push you in the right direction.

Yeah, yeah.

So would you, would you kind of advise.

Everybody kind of does that and goes about getting those kind of people in place.

It's almost like kind of.

It sounds like it's quite a critical thing.

It is very key.

And now I am at such a juncture of my career that, you know, not only I am looking for mentors, I am also mentor to a lot of people.

Yeah.

Interesting.

And I really see the value of that, you know, where I have become.

I also want, you know, others to just learn from my experience.

So I am also doing that because I do feel that, you know, it's a very important part of your career.

Yeah, yeah.

Interesting.

So what, what about any other kind of, Is there any other kind of bits of advice or stuff that you've learned through your career that you just.

That you would like?

You'd want to pass on to other people.

Yes.

There.

As I said, mentorship is definitely one of that.

Yeah.

The other thing that I have learned is also about all these people who want to, you know, going after.

Don't go after roles, particular roles or just particular brands.

Also look at the organization that you know, where you're working for as to what's the culture, what are the people that are in the organization.

Because again, you know, it's really helped me, like in bcg, if I think about the culture, is that not only I am able to do the interesting work that I want, but I'm also surrounded with those people who are basically, you know, pushing me, giving that support network.

So it's always good to be in such a culture because, you know, when you are working for an organization, you are basically there for more than one third of the day.

Yeah.

Right.

So you need to be happy about what you are doing.

So be in an environment where you are challenged and once you are challenged and once, you know you are surrounded with those people who are.

Are pushing you in the right direction, your career is definitely going to take leaps and bounds.

At least that's what's happened with me.

And that's why I'm always.

Even though BCG is the best brand that you could work for, but I never joined BCG just for that.

It was more about the support that I got inside bcg.

Yeah, yeah.

The people just as important as the organization.

Grand.

So then I guess if we take like a kind of future focus lens on it, we spoke a little bit about kind of what the key topics are for insurance right now.

Where do you see the next kind of 12, 18 months or so?

What do you think that looks like?

So this is the best time for anybody to be in the insurance industry.

And that's where I see that, you know, now that the innovation is there now everybody is just ready to drive that change.

So what I see in the next 12 to 24 months would be driving that change.

And when we are driving that change, obviously comparing it to other industries, maybe we are behind.

But now at the level that we'll be doing the change, I'm sure that we'll be leaps and bounds ahead of others, like the other sectors.

So that's what I'm really excited to be because this is the right time to be in the insurance industry from a technology focus.

And do you see, is it purely kind of AI is the center of everything or there are other things that you think are kind of going to be fairly critical as well.

So AI and landscape we talked about.

But then there are other things also, like for instance, even distribution channels and partnerships.

I recently just published an article which was then looking at embedded insurance, which is more about what are the channels through which you can sell insurance, which then transforms into that insurance is not just on paper, it gets embedded into your life because then you can sell coverage or sell insurance through the customer journey.

So the products like you are going and buying a car or you are purchasing a ticket and then, you know, insurance is just embedded over there.

So it's just making insurance so easily available that it just becomes a part of your normal life.

And now the technology is there or the technology tools are there to help you get to that.

Yeah, it's interesting about that.

And the embedded insurance thing, I think that's, that certainly seems to be a fairly hot topic as well.

Do you think that's, that's going to like going to really grow over the next, over the coming years?

Yeah, exactly.

So again, I know that, you know, a few of the insurers are already doing it.

For some of the others, we are actually helping them look at this business case of how it can help them grow because, you know, it's all together a separate channel through which they can sell insurance.

And we've already seen that, you know, it again improves their growth by at least 8 to 10 mark percentage if you know, they're able to sell insurance in such a way.

But again, for that you need to have a technology focus because then you'll be embedding your insurance into the products of other channels.

So your landscape needs to be ready and if your landscape is ready, then you can just integrate with any other platforms.

Yeah, I mean it definitely seems like certainly at the moment the common theme with that is it's kind, kind of it's all through digital channels, isn't it?

Like when I buy my train ticket now, there's always kind of an extra, I can pay an extra two quid or whatever in case something goes wrong or.

And so that if you can't plug into those digital channels onto other digital businesses, they're almost certainly further ahead than the insurance space then, then that's going to be a, be a challenge.

Do you think that's like, that's where kind of the more insuretech focused players will, will start to add real value.

Because I think again, Certainly from the InsurTech conference I was at last week, the common themes seem to move away from.

There's still lots of insurtechs that are providing products to bigger businesses.

There definitely seems to be more businesses now that are trying to be all encompassing insurance businesses rather than just providing tech to a kind of an older, bigger organization.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

I think Insurtix would definitely play a big role over there.

But Mark, you would also find this very interesting that a lot of insurers like, you know, incumbent insurers, they are then starting a venture just so that you know, they could do this kind of an insuretech business.

So I was working with a Dutch based insurer last year who then, you know, wanted to start this venture which can then do embedded insurance because as an incumbent insurer with regulations and all, it was difficult to get into that business business.

So sometimes it's just easy that you know, you start the venture out, create an insuretech and then you know, again able to have this separate channel along with the new technology to do all that.

Just like a greenfield technology stuck.

Yeah, so it's kind of standalone.

Don't have to worry about the legacy state.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean I certainly seen a, a real rise in that.

Especially some of the brokers are kind of getting into that world, aren't they?

Yes, absolutely.

Absolutely.

Okay.

And so I guess the last thing is kind of with you.

Like obviously you spent a lot of time in consulting.

Like the ambition for you is obviously I'm not trying to move you away from bcg.

I'm sure you'll be there for a long time.

But what do you think that looks like for you?

What are you interested in doing for the kind of future of your career?

So I would say, as I said that I've been very happy with the way that my career has taken turns, but it's also because of the bold decisions that I took.

Yeah, I would still definitely want to be in the insurance sector.

I would want to see that, you know, what's, and how technology is making a difference to insurance now, whether it's through the consulting sector or whether it's a part of the insurance sector itself.

There are options, but in general I would want to stay in insurance just to see how it can bring value.

I'm very passionate about the insurance sector.

That's one of the things that I've stayed deep into insurance and now that I can already see the value that technology is providing, that I just want to be a part of it and just see that, you know, where it takes you.

Yeah, yeah, it's coming soon.

Do you have ambitions to kind of be a CIO or something like that in the in the, in the long term is that kind of where you see maybe future career ending up or something like that?

Yeah, definitely that's an option.

And the only reason is again as I said there, I want to be a part of that change.

Yeah.

And I do think that I've got that vision.

And not only the vision, but I also have taken a lot of leadership through driving that change.

So as a CIO that might be a perfect role standing over there helping the business do that transformation.

Yeah.

So definitely that is an option.

Yeah.

I mean I think I agree with you.

It's going to next kind of 5, 10 years I think if we're, I mean even in a couple of years time, if we're sat here, I think, I think it's going to look very different to what it does now.

So yeah, it's exciting times.

Right.

We're coming to the end.

So I have got some quick fire questions for you I wanted to throw at you.

So the first one is which brand or company do you most admire and.

Why again Mark, based on.

I don't think so that you know, I've got a specific brand or company I always inspire.

Get inspired by those companies who challenge the status quo, who really invest in those people, in their people.

So that's the kind of companies that I admire.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay, cool.

What's the one piece of advice you wish someone had given you right at the start of your career?

That it's not only about, you know, showing results, it's about making those networks from the start and getting surrounded by people who push you in the right direction.

Amazing.

If you could swap jobs with one person for a day, who would it be and why?

I would actually say probably a founder of an insuretech because I really see the vision that they bring to this insurance world.

I would actually want to be a part of it.

And then probably with my experience of seeing the problems that needs to be resolved, giving them the ideas or giving this insuretech the idea as to what's that next thing that needs to be done.

Yeah, maybe that, maybe that's your calling.

Maybe you could do, do a startup or something like that.

Yeah, that, that is also an option that is in, you know, behind my mind.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Amazing.

Next one is what's the best nonfiction book or kind of work related book that you've.

You've read?

Are you a big reader?

I am a reader.

At one time it used to be fiction but now it has turned out to be really non fiction.

And the reason for that is with so much technology, innovation that's happening, you need to be on the top of it.

Yeah, yeah.

Since the last year it's been more about, you know, AI, responsible AI.

And if I have to actually mention a book, it's also been, it's one of the books I recently read was AI Superpower.

Okay.

So that's by Kai Fu.

And the reason for that is not only talks about the technology part of it, it also talks about that.

Why it's a leadership problem, because the leaders need to think about, you know, what and how of AI.

It's not about replacing people.

That's the mindset that people think about, but it's not about just replacing people.

It's about.

More about.

About giving the people the power and the support through AI.

So it's just a different way of mindset.

And I think anybody who wants to scale AI, they really need to think through this.

Yeah, it's interesting that, isn't it?

Because I think a lot of the I, I definitely keep up to speed with a lot of the AI stuff, but a lot of it's very technical and if you're non technical like I am, then, then, then it can be a bit overwhelming.

So I think anything that can, can, that can turn that into kind of.

How does this relate to the normal person or the normal CEO who may not be.

Especially in insurance?

Most CEOs aren't technical.

Right.

They're normally kind of underwriters or whatever.

Explaining that in that.

That's almost like the superpower for anyone in data and AI, isn't it?

It's like if you can bridge that gap between whether it's a book or an individual, if you can explain AI in simple terms to a CEO via a book, a podcast or whatever, you're on a good footing.

Yeah, I think so.

Then you should definitely read this book because it will give you that mindset as well as the innovation part of it.

And as you rightly said, that any CEO CIO who really want to scale AI, they need to think through it because this is not just a technology change, it's definitely an organizational and mindset change as well.

Yeah.

So is it AI Superpower?

Yes.

Cool.

I'll definitely look it up.

Next one is best career decision you've ever made.

So for me, the best career decision has always been those difficult decisions that I have taken, which have been uncomfortable to take it first.

Yeah.

But have been the best decisions.

And for me, if I think about it, the difficult decision was to move from US to UK And I was completely settled in US Then I decided, decided that I want to move to uk, help Guidewire in expanding their business.

That was one of the most difficult decisions, but it really helped me drive insurance and insurance transformations and it just, you know, started my career in the right direction.

Interesting.

So that, so the, the move from India to the US was that not as difficult because you, you, you did you always have in your mind that you would move away from the, from India sometime after university.

Yes, that was the thing.

And also because I continued to do the software development and a software engineer.

So it's the same job, just in a different location.

So there's some similarity, right?

Yes, exactly.

But from the US to the uk it was more together a cultural mindset change.

Because then, you know, you were working with the leaders of insurance.

Yeah.

That's where, you know, talking a business terminology, you know, and having that strategic vision.

Yeah.

Embedding that into your everyday life, that was a difficult decision.

Yeah.

And something that took me time to get embedded into.

But once I was able to excel in it, it just really took me forward.

Because there's a lot of change there, isn't it?

It's a change in different type of business roles, a change in location, even like the, the home life.

Did you move on your own or with family?

With family and stuff as well.

No, at that particular time at least, you know, I was.

Yeah.

All by myself making those moves.

So it wasn't that difficult from a family.

But then at the same time you've got no one to kind of to like no support network.

You're just in.

At the deep end on your own.

And I imagine culturally like the U.S.

although we see it seems like we would be quite similar.

I've worked with people in the US before.

Culturally there are some, some quite differences.

So I imagine there was, there was a bit to get your head around there as well.

Yeah, absolutely.

I think the, if I think about the cultural differences, they were totally.

They are definitely different between India, US and the uk.

Yeah.

Where working in all these different locations, then you just get, you are flexible, you are able to see that, you know, there's no single playbook that can work.

You have to adapt to all the different cultures and the organizations of these different countries.

So at least as I said that, you know, all these different moves then at least, you know, helps me get to this stage that I can adapt my playbook to any country and I can globally work.

I have been able to work globally with leaders across the different countries which just Makes it very easy to do business with different people.

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

And I mean, it's interesting.

I, I think there's a, there's a real common thing.

Like, you know, I've done loads of these now, but there's a common theme for me and, and pretty much everyone, whether they've worked in different locations, there's always been like one or two jobs that they needed to, to kind of really stick their neck out and, and, and, and take a chance really, and, and, and just, just take a risk.

I, I think that's, that seems to be the common theme with everybody who's successful.

Successful I've spoken to is there's, there's always, it's normally early on in their career, but not always.

And there's like jump in.

Maybe it's a sideways move or a bit of, a, bit of a tangent that they need to go on, but yeah, pretty much always seem to have worked out well and if they don't, they've normally learned a lot from it, that it ends up working out well in the long run.

So, yeah, it seems you're, you're no different on that front.

The penultimate one, if you could, if there was one person you'd say you admire most, who would it be and why?

Again, a very difficult question mark.

And the reason for that is I've come across so many leaders in my career trajectory and they've really inspired me.

So the people who inspire me the most have been that, you know, have been calm in difficult situations and they, you know, make, they make place for you at the table.

Yeah.

So those are the kind of people who inspire me the most.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay, cool.

And then the final question that everyone gets asked, what is it you love about working insurance?

That we are at the cusp of innovation, business and transformation.

That's what I'm loving about it right now.

And, and do you think like, is, do you think that's changed?

Is your love for insurance around that and the being in the industry changed?

And is it, is it kind of more now that you can see?

Because it seems like you're really interested.

I agree with you.

Right.

I'm really interested and excited by what, what the next, the next kind of few years do.

I think the, there's lots, been lots of transformation in the last five years, but the next, the next two will probably be double, triple, quadruple, what, what we've seen in, in recent years.

So the, the, the, the spread and how, how wide it can go is, is a lot, lot is a Lot broader now.

Do you see what I mean?

Like, whereas I think everybody was following the same kind of modernization journey, now the opportunities are kind of almost endless.

So to me it's like.

That's the exciting bit.

Yeah, absolutely.

Since I have been in this industry, everything has like quadrupled.

Like, if I think about the insurance software industry, it's basically quadruple.

Right now it's about 14 billion globally.

So definitely, you know, there is a lot of investment that's happening in the insurance technology space along with these insuretechs and fintechs that are coming with these innovative tools and technologies.

I definitely want to see that, you know, how insurance is able to utilize all that and do those transformations.

Amazing.

What a good place to finish.

Yeah, absolutely.

Well, look, thank you so much for making some time to talk.

I'm sure there'll be some people that want to connect and catch up with you.

I know we generally have.

I got in touch with your LinkedIn.

Is that, is that there might even be some people that want to be mentored now you kind of opened yourself up to that there.

But is that, is that, is that cool for people to connect with you?

Is LinkedIn the best place, as I.

Said, Mark, that, you know, that's what is the learning that not only I have, but that's the learning for everybody else that, you know, connect, make mentors, make those relationships because that really accelerates your career path.

So I am definitely open to it and I myself, myself would do it on a regular basis.

Amazing.

Well, look, thank you again for having you on.

Been really good.

If you're interested in connecting with Everse, you know where to do it and we'll catch you next time.

Absolutely.

Very nice to be here.

Thank you so much.

And that's it for today's episode of beyond the Desk.

I really hope you enjoyed hearing from.

Today'S guest and that you've taken away some valuable insights to fuel your own career journey.

If you liked what you heard, don't forget to hit like and make sure you subscribe so you'll never miss an episode.

There are plenty more to come every single Monday.

And if you're feeling really generous, please leave us a review and share it with your colleagues.

It really helps others find the show.

If you're hungry for more stories from the leaders shaping the future of insurance and insuretech, be sure to stay connected with me on LinkedIn where I'll be sharing upcoming guest info and more behind the scenes footage from this episode and all the others coming up.

Thanks again for tuning in and I'll catch you next time for an another inspiring conversation.

Until then, take care and keep pushing the limits of what's possible in your own career.

This podcast is sponsored by Invector Search, the brand new search solution to guide you in finding the best insurance leadership talent globally.

Find out more at www.invectorgroup.