Kaya, how are you, mate?

I'm very well, thank you.

we are facing the,

hottest day that we've

had in Melbourne in a

very long time today.

So I've, , batten

down the hatches and,

decide not to be

on the tours today.

Leave everyone outside and

you turn the air con on.

we actually finished on

Friday, so our team , is

done for the year, which

is pretty exciting.

So, I've got a few

meetings this week,

but yeah, nothing too

crazy, which is good.

Are they coming back

earlier than next year?

We're coming back

the 13th of Jan.

Yeah.

Okay.

So they've got a solid

So, solid break.

Yeah.

We , called it early

that we would try

and give everyone

a, good solid month.

while you're chatting,

do you want to maybe

just tell us a little bit

about yourself we'll weave

everything back to the

reason why we've got both

of you joining us today.

So Kaya, I'll, uh, Throw

it over to you, mate.

my name is Kai

McCarty Smith.

I'm the founder

and director of

Wilderness Building Co.

We're a building practice

that is traversing

both residential and

commercial at the moment.

And, , we focus on, on

really trying to do the

best that we can with the.

Materials and

resources that we have.

So sustainability is a,

is a huge focus for us.

And yeah, it's something

that we've tried out and

that is a few different

kinds of methodologies

of prefabrication,

which is probably

why I'm here today.

Absolutely.

I actually really love

that line, Kaya, of

the best that we can,

because I think a lot of

people get stuck on like

perfection when they're

trying to be sustainable

or build performance

or build whatever.

Like I think that

approach of doing the best

that we can every day.

Is going to say those

incremental improvements

all the time.

Cause I know a lot

of people are just

like, fuck this.

It's too hard.

, I'm just not going to

do anything and just

stick with what I know.

But yeah, we're also

joined by Chris Gilbert

and Chris, I've known you

for a long time, but I'm

going to let you introduce

yourself cause you're

doing all kinds of fun and

exciting things these days.

my name is Chris Gilbert.

, I was a founding

director of Archer

Architectural Studio.

I've, recently exited

from Archer to focus

on Kanda, which is a

fabrication facility

and software company.

That we set up as a

kind of side project to

Archer and I'm kind of

the lead of, , digital

innovation within Canda.

, and then I also

work for Australian

Sustainable Hardwoods

three days a week.

My main role there is

trying to connect ash

directly to architects

because for a long

time, we have all

kind of probably not

dissimilar with builders.

We all kind of, uh, work in

our own communities and we

have our own languages and

bridging those, divides is

something that I think is

like really fundamental.

If we want to scale good,

low carbon structural

solutions, it's actually

connecting and figuring out

how to talk to each other.

so what is CANDA?

we're a, prefabrication

company, uh, was set up,

, initially to, fabricate

structural glazed facades.

So, the, mullions of the

windows, we love glass.

were into high

performance houses.

So we've built with SIPs

and CLT historically

in order to get really

tight thermal envelopes.

But a lot of that pursuit

of a tight thermal envelope

has been to maximize the

amount of glazed area we

can provide to our clients.

Because we believe we live

in Australia, we live in

a beautiful, uh, setting.

And as a human, I want

to connect as much as

possible to that landscape.

And we've got this great

material called glass

that allows us to do that.

Thermally it doesn't

operate so well.

So, , for the last.

13 years, maybe more,

15 years, I've been

investigating SIPs, CLT

and other kind of high

performance solutions to

unlock that connection to

the Australian landscape.

how does it then differ

than to most other prefabs?

Because I'm not really

sure, like what you

guys do differently.

yeah, good question.

So, I guess we're much

more at the architectural

end of the market

where we're a panelized

fabricator, not volumetric.

So that's a

different aspect.

Also, there's not many

pre fabrication companies

doing facade systems like

glaze facade systems.

It's more about the kind

of a thermal envelope

around the panel.

also half of the, um,

company is focused on

software development.

Cause again, what I was

saying about my role at

Ash, it's about connecting

fabricators to architects.

Like my role there, I

love it, but I can't

scale myself enough to

connect with all of the

architects in Australia in

order to provide them the

information that they need.

To start procuring lower

carbon buildings, the only

way we can do this is by

using a digital tool kit

that is really intuitive

and is beautiful and works

within the architectural

workflow and by doing so

communicates all of the

information from, , a

lot of prefabrication

facilities directly to

the architect without them

having to contact multiple

different suppliers.

Because architects, they

don't make much money,

they're really busy,

they're really stressed.

So the only way for us to

scale these kind of low

carbon, high efficiency,

uh, solutions is to provide

it in a form that is like

really easily, quickly

digestible to, uh, someone

who doesn't have much time

and who possibly isn't

even that interested in

high performance houses.

But, by using The toolkits

that we're developing

enables them to deliver

high performance housing

without having to be a

believer really like,

because it is this most

simple way to procure a

building and that's when

we get to true scale,

because we don't have to

convince everybody we don't

have to be out there like

shouting from the rooftops.

We need better housing,

better housing, just

results through the

process of doing.

So that's the kind of

mission of Canada really.

it's not just for

our own fabrication.

we'll bring on partners

through like CLT, SIPs,

other passive house

panel fabricators,

and they'll all be

on the same platform,

accessible to architects.

I want to come back to

glazing in a second,

because I know when I

think about building a

high performance home,

you know, the glass is,

you know, obviously the

weakest point of that,

structure and having

seen some of the, the

buildings that have been,

I guess, has come out of,

I guess, using Candor as a

design tool, if I can put

Yep.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's exactly right.

Yeah.

come back to

that in a second.

Cause I, before my

brain goes elsewhere, I

just want to come back

to the software thing.

So my understanding of it,

cause you and I caught up,

18 months ago or something

just to really, have a

look at how that works.

Can correct me if I'm

wrong, when you talk

about software, it

integrates into like

Archicad and Revit.

Well, I'll let you

kind of drive the

what software it is.

But my understanding is

that they're, components

that you can kind of grab

off a shelf and implement

into your whatever software

tool that you're using.

Is that correct?

if that is correct, could

you maybe talk us through

how that might look in

a, say if an architect.

Is new to using can, new

how that would work when

designing their building.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Good question.

That's exactly

how it works.

So we're building it for

Archicad at the moment

because it's the platform

that we were on at Archer.

And there's a few

other really fantastic

Melbourne based architects

on that platform.

then we'll build

it out for Revit.

But essentially it just

replaces their wall tool

that they're using now with

a specialized wall tool.

But what's interesting

about the specialized

wall tool is that.

As you model with it,

if you go over a certain

size that the manufacturer

for that wall build up

has specified is beyond

their limits, that

object will turn red and

communicate to that user

that they're outside of

the fabrication bounds.

So they haven't had to

go through the factory

and figure out, Oh,

you can only do 3.

2 meter high walls.

The tool itself

communicates that.

And at the same time,

as they're modeling

with the tool.

And, , receiving real time

pricing, because that's

a huge barrier to entry.

People don't know how much

these things cost, so they

don't go and explore it.

It's delivering them real

time pricing, but at the

same time it's telling

the fabricator, and

someone like Ash, their

100 million facility out

there, and they have very

limited window into what

architects are working on.

So every time the architect

uses the tool and requests

a price, it actually thins.

That information to the

fabricator to say this

person's working on this

job and it's this big so

you can start to build

forward guidance or you

can start to build models

around future demand, which

when you're running these

massive facilities, even

with Canada's fabrication

facility at the moment, you

know, maybe it's a 5 or 6

million dollar operation.

You really need to know

what's coming up in the

next six, 12, 18 months

in order to understand how

much you need to invest in

the factory or how much you

need to be scaling down.

so what is like then a

standard like build up

of your wall system?

I think that's probably

important to know,

like is it a CLT, is

it a CIPS, or is it a

standard construction?

whatever other

manufacturers come

on board, they'll be

able to specify what

build up they want.

Currently, we're doing

just open cassettes

out at our prototype

factory, let's call it.

And it's just, uh, we

use GL, uh, 10, which is

from Storo Enzo, which

is an amazing product.

Glue, like it's a

glue lamp on product

as the stud work.

And then, uh, OSB4 is

the shading just to

give you some of that

airtight envelope.

is this sheathing

for the external side

or internal side?

uh, we do that throughout.

again, we're not doing

closed cassettes yet

just because of the

tooling required.

You need a butterfly

table and you need

these other things.

But our main product

that we're making is the

structural glazed facade.

So that, that allows

you to load your roof

load or floor load

through the mullions

of the window suite,

So it's more, is it like

a curtain wall system?

is that what we, Yeah.

Yeah.

Curtain wall, but

structural curtain wall.

we've also obviously got,

, Kai sitting here as well.

And, and the reason why

I wanted to get both

Chris and Kai together is

because I know that Kai

has actually worked on

one of these buildings and

I, I'll try and kind of

go back and forth between

the, you know, design and

software side of things

and I guess how that's

then rolled out on site.

So from a chippy and a

builder's point of view,

could you maybe talk.

To the listeners a

little bit about your

experience with using,

I guess, this system.

Yeah, of course.

might go back a

little bit further.

So, early days

of wilderness, we

actually did quite a

few modular installs.

We were doing some

volumetric, modular

installation.

So, these houses or

buildings would come

in usually, somewhere

between two and four

different trucks and

then would get craned

in and, joined on site.

So we would do all the

footings and all of

those connection details.

But being volumetric,

they had a huge amount

of steel in them usually

to be transported on a

truck and then obviously

crane lifted into into

their respective sites.

So this was pre my kind

of journey down the

passive house rabbit hole.

so we quickly Worked

out the performance

on the, these projects

that we're working on

were quite problematic.

And we voiced that, we

were having some pretty

serious concerns about

some of the installs

that were happening.

, and, the performance was

just really not there.

And so , we moved away

from that, working with

that business that we did.

This was, yeah,

probably about.

Six years ago, and then

we were felt a little bit

maybe nervous about prefab.

did start to use some,

you know, SIPs panels

and things like that.

But, the perception that

I personally had around

prefab being delivered

in Australia was not.

That high, really, so it

wasn't until we met with

Chris and I've known Chris

for many years as well,

but, , Jasu, who's a candor

and we, um, put forward

the idea of collectively

as a team doing a, building

that could be designed

for disassembly and an

alternate kind of option to

a volumetric Display suite

effectively for a client.

So we all came together,

to, you know, do a

pretty early feasibility

and also show how we

could do it probably a

little bit faster and

give that client a

little bit more control.

With the design process

and a little bit more

flexibility with it than a

volumetric kind of design.

So that's probably,

preface of the project.

And then we were

insanely blown away by

the incredible level of

detail, the tolerances

of, of Canada's robot,

which is, you know,

within half a millimeter.

So then you have to start

factoring in, you know,

the tolerances of timber

because cutting is so

perfect, , but timber

often, you know, we'll

need to kind of, you know,

have some extra tolerance.

So, from my perspective

as a builder, and a

carpenter, like putting

that system together was

just, you know, Incredibly

effortless from our side,

you know, we had to be very

meticulous with set out

and, planning to stay ahead

of, bringing all of those,

those pieces to site.

So, Absolutely, we're blown

away by the performance and

the whole system as a whole

So it comes finished,

is that right?

Am I, is that how

I understand it?

Like it's a pre

finished timber?

cause this is a difficult

question, like when we use

prefab or those finished

timbers and it's becoming

part of the structure, when

it gets wet, we can have

issues with the timber.

How have you, Navigated

that one because once it

sort of, you get those

sort of watermarks,

you can't get them out.

That's a very good

question, Matt.

And it was a, pretty

serious question that

we had to go through

as a, project team

We had two options.

We had actually the, the

facade being, pre-finished,

but it's being pre-finished

in a factory, in, quite

a controlled environment.

and the products that

candor are using on

that facade system, uh,

for external windows.

So that, the inside and

outside of them are,

, incredibly well coded,

but on this particular

project, we actually had,

jump increase if I get

the terminology wrong, but

it's a, exposed rafter

system or, or a cassette

system for the roof.

So you've got the glue lamp

exposed rafters with a ply

that was also pre finished

sitting on top to give you

that, full timber ceiling

look beautiful, beautiful.

the clients opted actually

for this to choose

like a, like quite a

light, kind of stain.

Whereas the facade was

the dark brand that.

Canada is quite, , well

known for, um, but yeah,

so we had to install

that ceiling cassette

and then ceiling cassette

system and then protected

that from the weather.

So what we did have is

effectively, we craned

all of those pieces

in onto, you know, a

massive, , it was like 2.

400 by 60 LVL beams that

ran through the middle.

And then the cassettes

would clicked

in either side.

We, I think we had about

24 of these roof cassettes

and we're able to install

those in about 3 hours and

then we, we had already

designed the roof structure

that went on top of that.

So they all.

Clipped in as well.

And then we quickly

got our, pro climber,

, mento on top.

and we just had to work

incredibly quickly to

protect the material.

And so you're picking

your days with weather.

exactly, but we did have a

fuck up on it , we planned

the weather well as we

could plan the install

as well as we could.

And we had a section of

our mentor that was just

temporarily overlapped.

And.

Some wind blew that up a

little bit and we had some

sidewood driving rain and

we did end up with one

section that got damaged.

So, like , the ply sheeting

that sat in between the

exposed rafters, we had

kind of two, two panels

of that, which got

water damage, that water

staining as you spoke to.

So we were able to, you

know, actually screw

that panel off from the

top side and actually

get, those replaced.

So it was stressful at the

time, but at the same time,

you know, like we also knew

well, worst case scenario.

We know how this is put

together so well, because

it's, it's modeled so

amazingly by Canada that

we're able to just go.

All right.

There's actually only

8 screws in that panel.

Let's.

Get someone in there with

the right angle drill.

And yeah, exactly.

So, we were able to kind

of, you design a way, um,

around, around that issue,

but in an ideal world,

we'd probably would have

been able to put the whole

roof structure as part

of the, you know, roof

cassette up in one go.

And then all we would

have had to do is wrap it.

That afternoon and, but

we were still designing

the eve for that

project, which was quite

significant overhang.

So, we didn't quite have

that luxury on that job.

Are you insulating

externally on top as well?

Like how do you get your,

your ceiling insulation

through there if it's

an exposed ply system?

Good question.

So Chris, you're probably

best to talk to that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, for this project

it was a, it's a display

suite for a, a large, much

larger apartment building.

So performance was not high

on the, their agenda which

is fine, you know, that was

designed to be disassembled

in within 18 months.

I think It was

co, wasn't It

yeah, probably, probably

12 months from now.

So yeah, 18 months.

Yep, sorry, that definitely

wasn't high on the

priority,, high priority.

Historically, what we've

done, is put a PIR foam

on top of the panel and

actually shipped it with

PIR, uh, uh, fixed down

and that did protect it,

um, from weather events

a little bit more as well

and those, I guess the

ceilings, Kaya's talking

to is kind of what Kaya,

Kanda's interested in

doing, the kind of higher

end exposed carpentry

elements, because we have

a, Hundigo robot drive,

that's really agnostic

towards complexity.

So the more complex

the geometry doesn't

necessarily mean more money

because the saw can twist

on whatever angle it wants.

And that's where we kind of

get a delta over, on site

carpentry as well, like

the more complex, the kind

of more, more beneficial

for prefab, well, for our

style of prefab, I guess.

Again, we're not pursuing

like a hyper high

performance building

because I mean, we can, we

can talk about this, but

like, I think Australia.

Yeah.

Is heading to a, energy,

like an abundance of

energy in the future,

not too distant future.

And I like this, this

has been a personal

journey for me and I've

come and I've come from

delivering like super

high performance housing.

And now I'm looking at it

and thinking, actually the

majority of Australians

can't afford the buildings

that we would all like

to deliver, right?

Just the amount of stuff

in those buildings.

Is cost prohibitive

to work at scale.

So what's the other way

to solve that equation?

And the other way to

solve that equation

is with energy.

And that the gap, the

energy gap is changing

really quickly.

So I would much prefer to

do a lower performing house

with a large solar system.

and build 10 of

those versus two high

performance housing houses.

And have eight

people that The house

hasn't been realized.

this circles really nicely

back to the glazing to and

I don't know you and I've

had these conversations

, on a few occasions.

My opinion is that if every

single home in Australia

was built really well for

seven stars, actually seven

stars, if every single

home in Australia was seven

stars, we'd actually have

much more impact than if

say me and Matt and Kai

built six passive houses,

you know, every year.

So, and that's interesting,

glazing, cause I know,

know, , Archer, you know,

when you and I first,

Thought up many moons ago.

You know, Archer has

like quite this beautiful

aesthetic and there is

a lot of glazing in it.

And I think my, my

immediate thoughts

were, Ooh, how's this

going to perform?

But really at the end

of the day, we have to

make a minimum standard.

So if that's seven star

happy days, , I know

your buildings are going

to be airtight anyway.

And I know they're

going to, for the

most part, have.

Fresh filtered

air through them.

So you're taking a few

of those boxes anyway.

day.

So.

You know, I know me and

Matt are passive house

builders and that's what

we choose for our business,

but I'm also, you know, I'm

not sitting here preaching

from the, from my top of my

soapbox saying everyone's

got to build a passive

house either, but that's

how I choose to do it.

So I think it's going to

be really interesting how

this, plays out because

there are going to be a

few people, I know Cam

Munro would probably

have something to say

about it saying there's

too much glazing, but I

think you're right, and

I'm not saying use solar

panels on your roof as an

excuse to build shitter

homes because that's

not what you're doing,

but it does offset it

nicely and appropriately.

Matt, I'm keen to hear

your thoughts on that.

so I always go

back to comfort.

So I think the word,

I hate this energy

efficiency discussion

to be really honest with

you, because I think we

need to build personally,

anyone that knows me, I'm

big on building science

and we need to focus on

that first before energy

efficiency, because if we

focus on doing science,

energy efficiency, come

comfort comes from aside

from that, if we focus

on energy efficiency or

sustainability, there's

a lot of things that

can get missed along

the way because we

can't change science.

That's just like, you

can't change physics.

and that's where my brain

goes with a lot, with a lot

of, a lot, a lot of things

with these sorts of things.

Um, I, I personally think

prefabs needs to be the

future if you want to

build better on scale.

the data is there for

Europe, but for some

reason, like 20, 30 years,

like prefabs coming,

prefabs coming, like, when

is it going to actually

come and is it going to

come because I also being

devil's advocate here is

I think Australians are

not, we don't like change.

And the whole prefab

thing compared to say,

for example, Europe,

they're just so used to

it because it's efficient.

It makes total sense.

We're here.

It's like we need to throw,

they, people would much

rather throw 30 people

at a job to work on it.

Because you're not, you

know, we're doing ourself

how to work kind of thing.

that.

make sense?

Yeah.

mean, I think we have

to be really, really,

really careful comparing

ourselves to Europe, right?

one, their climate is

much more extreme and two,

they come from a context

of energy dependence

that depended on oil and

natural gas from Russia.

So when you come at it

from that mindset, you're

a very different person

approaching that problem

than what we've got here.

so I would be skeptical

around anybody that's just

like, let's build passive

house cause that's what

they're doing in Europe.

And that's the

right thing to do.

I'd just be like,

I don't know.

And then also the,

the prefab thing, I

100 percent agree.

It's like, it works in

the European context

because their building

period is much shorter.

you know, they're gaining

back months by working in

the factory in the winter.

So, they're just emulating

the same thing and then the

transport cost is just a

kind of cost that they bear

in order to produce houses

within that shorter window.

But every project there

has a crane and they build

tarps over the project.

So things don't get

wet where we're just,

what's cheapest?

What's cheaper?

And the first question I'm

assuming that you get when

someone reaches out to

you is what's the price?

Not what's the system?

What do you do?

What's the price?

What does it cost?

for sure.

But again, like, like

I'm a utilitarian, right?

the reason why I stepped

back from Archer like,

we were just building

homes for relatively

wealthy people, right?

And that's not like,

that's not good.

Well, I mean, it's good

for them and I loved

all my clients and

like, I'm like super

proud of the beautiful

homes we've delivered.

And, you know, some of

them have in Hamish with

Hamish, like Kyle, we've

tried to get a few off

the bat, off the ground.

And I've met wonderful

people through that

process, but when.

I had children like

seven years ago and

I'm just like, I can't

keep doing this, like

building beautiful high

performance houses for a

limited amount of people.

Like that doesn't,

that doesn't solve the

problem of comfort that

you're talking about.

It also doesn't solve the

liabilities that we're

sold handing our children.

The only way to solve

that is to work at

like massive scale.

And the only way to do

that is to be cheaper.

Like, we have to come

to terms that, like,

buildings are a commodity

product that is a

race to the bottom.

So, in that race to

the bottom, what, what

are the things we want

to kind of elevate

and see as important?

And I 100 percent agree

with you, Matthew, like,

being comfortable in your

home is super important,

but comfortable is not.

Like being, warm in

a box without windows

comfort, has multiple

kind of layers.

Like it's how you

interact with your family.

It's how you interact

with your landscape.

it's noise, it's

vibrations, it's Like,

it's air quality,

everyone just thinks

temperature when it's

air, when it's comfort.

It's just, it's only

temperature, but

there's so many other

things.

There's so many things.

And also Hamish and I were

talking about this as well.

The other day, it's

like also the financial

comfort, right?

Like we've all, the stress

that a mortgage in poses

on someone is a real cost

and that cost is assumed.

Zero, you know, but we're

all living with that stress

of a high debt level, and

that is not comfortable

, so you say wealthy clients,

and I'm going to probably

potentially say something

I maybe shouldn't hear.

one point here that we want

to talk about is everyone

to get the price down.

The only way to do it

is to remove labor.

Let's be honest,

construction labor

in Australia is

so expensive and.

I'm not going to say that

people shouldn't get paid

well, or they shouldn't

get paid correctly, but

if you look at, say, for

America, for example,

in America, they'll have

the Mexicans come across

and work a lot cheaper.

In Europe, you'll get the

Romanians, the Polish,

all those sort of, those,

those countries coming

across, working cheaper.

Throughout Asia,

labor's cheap.

In Australia, we have a

set minimum wage, which

is a good thing, but

it just means that we

don't have people coming

here that can work a lot

cheaper, and they're there

for my personal opinion.

Means the only way to do

and build cheaper is to

remove labor and people

are going to disagree

because people need jobs

and I totally understand

that but new jobs will be

created, and that means

you need to use machines.

Yeah.

You need to commodify it.

And commodification

means automation really

Yeah, and then going

on to wealthy people,

the hard thing is like

the unfortunate reality

and I don't think it's

going to change that

you need to have a good

income to build a house.

I just, I'd like, I think

we can all try our best

and like, I'll be open.

Like I'm not my, the

way we build is not for

the lower end of scale.

And that's how my business

is personally stuff.

And I'm comfortable

with that.

But the reality is I don't

think that we're going

to get to a point where

building is affordable

for everyone ever.

I just, unless we start

building tiny, tiny

houses, But the issue

is everyone wants more

and more and more.

Cause you've got the

butler's pantry and you've

got the extra miter room

and you've got that.

And we have a culture

here where we've got

to compete with each

other because I've got

this and I want more.

Yeah, I, I don't

disagree with that, but

that doesn't mean you

shouldn't try, right, to

No, no, no, no,

no, no, no, no, no.

A hundred percent.

I'm not saying that

you shouldn't try.

Yeah.

well, and that comes

back to, you know,

Kaya's comment early

about doing the best.

So I often say, don't let

great be the enemy of good

and, you know, let's, let's

just make things good.

And, you know, if we

can't, if we can't go

all the way to passive

house, maybe we can make

the building airtight.

And as Hamish said,

like, like we try to

make buildings airtight

and then have heat

recovery systems in it.

And that's good, right?

It's not great,

but it's good.

And good is it's better.

And, and that's

more scalable.

That price point's

more scalable than the

next price point up.

So I think just making,

And people, if they

want to add it on,

they can add it on.

exactly.

Yeah,

make it

a, make, make, set,

set, set the minimum,

set, set the minimum

and then everyone, you

know, let them have

their own choices on top

I've got, I've got a

really weird question

here and it's based

off a huge hypothetical

because obviously building

prices have jumped, what,

60 percent post COVID?

Is that roughly,

probably what they are?

What if COVID didn't happen

and prices were where, or

what they were back then?

Do you think we would

have Would we be aware

of the health and comfort

because of something

like COVID where people

spend their time inside

and they understand the

importance of like cost

like that building.

But then what I'm trying

to say is, do you think

we would have then priced

like, where would the

price have been with

building construction?

Do you think we would

have been able to then

build a house that's

more affordable?

At that.

higher, better end.

I don't think so, Matt.

I think we've been on a

trajectory of building

worse and worse houses in

Australia for quite a long

period of time, you know,

and I think that COVID was

actually probably something

that was a positive

thing to the building

industry in relation to

performance and making

people actually aware of

how shit the houses can be.

Uh, here in Australia,

because they weren't

going to the office, you

know, for eight hours a

day, they were, they were

at home 24 hours a day.

I'm kind of talking to

Melbourne specifically

here, but I personally

think that that, has many

people to high performance

and comfort and making that

something that they're not

going to compromise on.

And I think obviously

how that reflects against

price, I think we were

already kind of on a.

Downward spiral in

the industry at large

and needing to do

something different.

Like, we were already,

you know, working on

on high performance and

even, this prefabrication

work before COVID.

That was kind of like

when that really hit for

us as a business and,

there was already a huge

demand for, you know,

doing things faster,

doing things cheaper

and doing things better

and it's like, now, how,

how can we actually, you

know, move towards that?

and as you said

before, Australians

don't like change,

and a generalization,

but I think that's.

fairly fair call, and

it's going to take people

like Chris and, you know,

Ash and Kander even,

even both of you guys

doing these podcasts to

help, spread a message to

get people on the right

but it sounds, it

all sounds awesome.

Yeah.

So it all sounds like

everything's improving, but

I, reckon we all surround

ourselves in a bubble.

We all talk the same

like minded people.

And if you put it as

a percentage in the

whole ministry of

construction, it's such

a small percentage.

So the question I ask

is, is it really growing

and is it really like,

are we at a saturation

point potentially

because people just can't

afford to build beyond

anything half decent?

Can I, say something like,

I reckon when, when Chris

and I first connected 2018

to 2019, , the space was

tiny in my echo chamber,

my space was tiny.

Now I feel it's bigger,

like it's a lot bigger

and yes, we operate

with an echo chamber,

so I kind of feel like

everyone's talking about

it, but I think the echo

chamber has gotten bigger,

This is my opinion.

no, no.

No,

It's bigger.

Like, um,

Jess and I went down and

spoke at the Metricon

design conference

down in Tassie.

And that was one of

the most, uplifting

experiences of my year

really, because they're a

massive builder and they

really want to do better.

They're trying so hard.

They're doing like

demonstration houses

at 10 star, you know,

they're trying to

figure out how to lift.

Up the base because They

believe that, you know,

better as possible.

But the issue is how to

do that at the price point

that meets their market.

And that's super,

super hard.

Everyone has to

buy in though.

I think that like you can't

like, for example, and

I'll just use Metricon here

for example, like all the

volume builders have to be

on the same page because

as you do, Like there's

more supply that the mayor,

that's the only option.

I think I made this

analogy with the low enviro

concrete when I discussed

them with the wholesome

with my own house.

Is I just didn't understand

why it wasn't their only

concrete they're providing.

Like just scrap the

shitty concrete that

they currently use and

only supply low carbon.

Like just make

that the standard.

So why can't they just

make that the standard?

this point you're talking

about, Matt, like, circles

back to something that

I've got, like, uh,

circled on my notepad here,

and it's supply chain.

Because Canda is solving

a problem at the design

point, and yes, Ash is,

a crucial sort of element

in that supply chain.

But Ash is also a

business, and they

want to make money.

The forestries, where

the forests are coming

from, they're a business,

they want to make money.

and it's, we

don't cut down

things anymore.

we don't use the,

like, the timber issue

is also a huge issue,

I'm assuming, for ash.

Yeah, so I guess the point

I'm trying to make is

yes, so Canda's amazing

But we also got to look

backwards from that at

the whole entire supply

chain and I guess get

them Invested in it.

It's not just everything

from Canda and onwards.

It's everything from

Canda and backwards as well

this is the kind of broad,

broader point, which, you

know, we kind of talked

about maybe before we

started recording or like

is prefab the answer.

And my, my, my reply to

that is like, it's no,

it's not, it's not the

answer hasn't hasn't

like it's been around

for 60 plus years.

It hasn't, hasn't

eventuated as the

answer, but is it

part of the answer?

Is that part of the good?

Yep, definitely.

And then we also, you

know, need to look at

it with other solutions

stacked on top and see

it as a whole ecosystem.

But one of the important

things, and this is kind

of what you touched on

Matthew is worth looking at

is like, as a traditional

builder, what's worth

critiquing is like,

what are they doing?

What gains are they getting

in the factory that we

can emulate on site?

And like a major one as

it touched on Matthew is

the crane, like having

an onsite crane for the

length of the build really

emulates a lot of the gains

that we get within candor,

which is just like the

ability to lift heavy shit

around and have a decent

workflow because of it.

what I reckon is

a really useful.

Task is to look at the

whole process of what

prefab companies are

doing in a factory and

dissolve it down to

the fundamentals, like,

and really go super

deep and then just

pick the best parts.

Like, where are they

getting their biggest

gains and then try to

replicate some of that.

And yeah, Chris, you, you

showed me the other day,

a builder from Victoria,

who's gone and purchased

a self erecting crane

that comes on a trailer

that you can actually, you

know, I think it costs 65

grand, something like that.

It's less than the

excavator that we had

in our, you know, in our

team and, you know, that

you can leave on site.

You can erect in even

a, you know, in a city

environment and 65,

000 that's going to pay

for itself on 1 job.

with labor, you know,

we're talking about

before Matt, the, the

hardest thing is labor.

We could, as builders

do a thousand times

better than we're doing

right now with this tech

But to me, there's

only one way

that's possible.

unless government intervene

and provide incentives

or provide, funding for

R and D in these areas.

To make

it more affordable.

I can't,

that's the only way

that it happens.

They already do.

They've got, there's

a, um, 46 cent tax

rebate for R& D.

And that's available

to every business if

you're doing R& D.

Definitely encourage

people to go look that up.

, that's a massive

amount of money that

you can claim back.

Um, super, super valuable.

So those, those things

exist, but also things need

to stand on their own feet.

And that's like the beauty

of capitalism, right?

Like that's the competition

and not to say that like

government isn't important,

but I think being clever

and being smarter.

Doesn't require government

money and the example

car just mentioned then

about Chris summons from

sharing ham construction

up in the northeast.

he critiqued his process.

He broke it down to the

fundamentals and was

like, okay, most of the

time on site is just

moving things around.

And most of the

dangerous tasks on site

are from people moving

heavy things around.

He paid 70, 000 in

the end for a crane.

And then he spent like

6, 000 getting everybody

on his crew, a ticket

to operate it is like

for, you know, under

a hundred K, including

training, I can drastically

change the way I work.

So now from the very,

from like the truck

rocks up with all of the

concrete mesh on site.

He uses the crane to lift

all the concrete mesh.

That one thing

alone has saved a

laborer for the job.

And then he's like picks

up his bins and moves his

bins all over the site.

And then also every

pack of timber or sips.

He does a lot of sips

with like Hamish.

Is erected through

the use of this tool.

And I like that, that

simple idea of being

clever has unlocked a

huge amount of value

You'd have to go to a

full I think if you're

going to invest in the

crane, you'd have to look

at a full time prefab

ethos in your business.

Like that you're only

working with prefab, to

make it worthwhile and

financially viable.

if you've multiple projects

running and it's a trailer

driven crane, granted

where Sheringham work,

they're rural Victorious,

they've got space for it.

So that makes sense.

But like, I think about

all the times that

you're actually manually

lifting something.

if you got four or

five jobs, I reckon

that thing would pay

for itself in a year.

in the city, like

I feel like that

becomes really hard.

Like I can't even fit a

bin on my sites

half the time.

Yeah.

But I mean, you look

at Portugal, right?

I was in Portugal

for my honeymoon,

like eight years ago.

And.

Really in the middle

of Lisbon, super tight.

They had tiny self

erecting cranes.

It was like, and again, I'm

not saying that cranes are

the solution and here to

just be like, get a crane.

I'm just saying there's

massive amounts of value

that are probably exist

that are currently untapped

that don't require us

going the full prefab.

Set up because maybe like

prefab companies will

exist in Australia and

become more a part of the

market, but I'd never think

they're going to dominate.

And we need to kind of

emulate as much of that

process as possible.

So the issue we have as

well is, again, the cranes

aren't manufactured here,

so, we've gotta go buy

them from overseas and

we've gotta bring 'em in,

we've gotta ship 'em in,

we've gotta do all that.

Like that just makes

it's like everything.

your car, your cars,

your plant, your skill,

like, Australia's

manufacturing is like

almost zero, so I

think everything comes

from overseas with

an inflated price.

Yeah.

And that's like,

Half our

Right.

Like we're rich relative

to the rest of the world.

We're rich.

We need to shut up and

yeah,

we'll pay

that price.

I've got a question for

you, Matt and Hamish, and

I'm curious to this answer.

Like what is the biggest

issue that both of

you are facing in your

businesses at the moment?

Budget meeting

brief, straight off.

That's my, issue too.

Hamish?

yeah, same, same,

budget meeting brief.

and being way off, way off.

Still, way off.

Like, I forget who I was

speaking to about this

the other day, where.

And I'm not, again, having

a crack at designers or

architects here, but I

feel at that first stage,

you get shown the concept

of like, Oh, this is what

you want, but this is

the other design that's

probably a little bit

cheaper, but they always

go for, Oh, that's the

one we want, but the price

is so much more where

the multiple options that

they're showing in that

context, concept stage,

like someone's always going

to fall in love with the

bigger, grander thing.

and I feel that's the,

a little bit of the

battle that we face,

but it's, it's impossible.

Like it's the impossible

answer at the moment.

is, and it's, sad

that it is incumbent

on you to deliver the

bad news constantly.

But this is.

This is kind of coming

back to the fundamentals of

what Candice trying to do.

Essentially, you've got

all of this data, right?

Price data, but it

is on your computer,

probably sitting

behind your mouth here.

Probably all of that

data sitting there and

I'm designing here in my

bedroom and those two data

sets aren't connected.

So, all of this human

capital goes into.

Modeling something,

producing something, but

then we turn it into a PDF

that you, then we send over

to you and you use some

other program to project

all of that shit back

into 3d and price it all.

It's like, that is

an insane, that is an

insane process that

leaves people like

really disenchanted with

architects and builders.

And it's like, that's the

problem to solve, right?

We just need to connect

those two data sets and

we're away to the races.

The hard part about it

too, is like, and I'll

stick up for architects

a lot here is that, that

you've got to somehow

put a budget onto paper.

That is so hard.

And then the other thing

is you've got people

who really trying.

Super, super

hard to do that.

And you're really careful.

And then you've got

the other people

who just don't care.

They just like drawing,

spit it out, done.

He are not my problem.

And that makes

it really hard

back on the

flip side again.

they care.

It's just that

price discovery is

just insanely hard.

So their approach is like,

I'll deal with this at

the end of the process.

When I have the data rather

than dealing with it,

trying to find the data

during the process, because

even you as like builders,

you're probably, I don't

know, like 12 weeks behind

what the price actually is.

Architects are 18 months.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Back from that, then

the data that we get

is from you guys, but

like, we're only doing

like 10 projects a year.

Right.

So we've got 10 data

points a year of

where the price is at.

And like, that's

just nowhere

fucking near enough.

and two might be

prefab and two might

be stick build and

two

That's right.

Yeah.

Yep.

Yeah.

You're not controlling

the variables.

So essentially it's

just garbage data

and your data Chris

is the contract price,

not the actual price

to deliver either,

they're two different

things, in themselves,

Yep.

So I think that like, as

much as like new building

systems and all of that

stuff, which I love, I

actually think there's much

more value to unlock from

connecting pools of data.

So capital isn't

wasted on things

that don't eventuate.

Like, how much could we all

reduce our price if we had

perfect price discovery?

Okay.

I think we've got

to come back to cost

plus contracts too.

I honestly think

that's half the

answer.

That's how, that's how

the world build except

for us in Australia.

Yep.

But I mean, I I wouldn't

want to know that as a, as

an answer to the question,

like what, margin could

you pull out if you weren't

spending time pricing

jobs, trying to discover

prices from your trades,

et cetera, et cetera,

you're putting a

number on risk,

not necessarily just

on the, of timber

and stuff to go into

your price discovery

is from your

sub trades, right?

Because you're going

through the same thing.

You're trying to discover

the price or predict

the price in future.

So it's really a price

discovery process

all the way down.

It's like turtles

all the way down.

It's

Yeah.

But I'll use a plumber for

example then, but like,

you go to four plumbers.

They're all going to

be so, so close but so

different at the same time.

So how, like the thing

is, you look at the volume

builder model, they're

like, this is the price

Take it or leave it.

How does that come into

What we kind of can do,

and again, this is why

I've been doing a ton of

reading on this recently

is the cost plus model.

One as a builder you can

come in at a lower rate

'cause you are re you've

removed all the risk

essentially to you've gotta

be good on your paperwork.

You've gotta be really

good on your paperwork

but there's awesome

programs out there that

can happen that can

help you with that.

You don't become the bank

of the, contract as well.

'cause that's the other

issue that, that you become

with a lot of the fixed

pri fixed price contract.

If you are scheduling

and your staging

isn't that great, you

become a huge bank.

I do think, uh, a cost

plus method can work very,

very well in the future.

Because like Kai, for

example, if you're,

you're a builder, can go

and get your estimates

on the prices and stuff.

And if you work off

a margin on top of

that, knowing that what

you, what the labor is

associated with your