Alex:

There’s a mention of suicide in today’s episode. Take care while you’re listening.

Darren:

I physically stopped. I stopped and I looked at this big glass building and these big doors that I'd walked in so many times. I couldn't…my … it was as if my legs had grown roots.

Alex:

Today’s guest is Darren Smith from Essex. In this episode we’ll find out what happened when Darren realised his mental health was in crisis – and what we do as men when we confront a feeling of failure.

Darren was working in finance - he had a great apartment, great car … technically he had everything he’d ever wanted. But something wasn’t right. He was drinking too much, not sleeping – and feeling under increasing pressure at work. It all became too much one morning, when Darren was walking to the office.

Darren:

There'd been a few mornings leading up to this… ah, the dread, the fear of going into the office. And my partner worked at the same office and we walked in. And the seven minute walk felt like, on that day, it felt like it was 30 seconds. And I didn't want it– I wanted it to be half hour. But as I was going through that walk I could feel myself getting hotter and hotter and hotter.

It was kind of like a nice spring morning. Certainly not warm enough for me to be perspiring and sweating as much as I was. Ordinarily, we'd go and get a coffee from the coffee shop but I said no, don’t feel right, I’ll leave the coffee.

And I then crossed the road and I could feel myself starting to cry, I could feel that… and this pain in my chest, which initially, I thought was, I was having a heart attack. But then I could feel it a bit lower down. And I thought this is, this is like nerves I've got –I got nervous.

And I physically stopped. I stopped and I looked at this big glass building and these big doors that I've walked in so many times. I couldn't. My… it was as if my legs had grown roots. And all I remember hearing was just all these people going to work and doing their daily life. And all I could focus on was me, crying out loud, sobbing. And not knowing what was going on, which then made me cry even harder.

And all the time this is going on, my partner, Stacy is talking to me, I can't hear her because all I can hear is just all this noise. People you know, cars going past, people going past, going into the office, people walking past me, people drinking their coffee people chatting: morning, how are you? But I couldn't hear Stacy. And I just couldn't physically walk in.

It felt like I was there for ages. I was probably there for 30 seconds, maybe 60 seconds. And I felt Stacy hold my hand. And she managed to pull me. And she managed to walk me away. And I just couldn't stop crying. I just couldn't stop crying.

All the time Stacey, just kept asking what's wrong? What's wrong? And I just, I didn't have an answer. I didn't have an answer. And that frustrated me even more. So at this point, I've done all my crying. But now I'm asking myself, why don't I know what's wrong with me? Why can’t I say to Stacy, oh, yeah, it’s because of this.

And again, that's probably another 60 seconds. And then I just had this overriding embarrassment. And everyone was looking at me. And everyone knew that I was struggling. And all I wanted to do was just get back to the apartment as quick as possible because it then felt like absolutely everybody was looking at this man, bawling his eyes out for no apparent reason. And I literally just said to Stacey, look, you go into work. I've just got to go home. I just need to go home. I don't know what it is. I just need to go home. And I literally walked as quick as I could to get back to the apartment.

That walk back was just a seven minute kind of kicking of myself, in here. You know, what are my parents gonna think? What's my son gonna think? What does Stacey think?

And I got in the apartment and just broke down again, just sobbed my eyes out. Not knowing why. Not knowing why.

And that’s where I sat for the whole day, just sitting there crying on and off for a whole day trying to work out what was wrong with me. I'd probably have had little a look on the internet I think to find out why I was crying, or what the pain in my chest was. But the overriding emotions was that I’d… I'd failed. I'd thrown my career away. I'd let everybody down. And, and those feelings have stayed with me for a long, long time.

Alex

What did Stacy do when, what was the conversation you had with her? Before you made that walk back to the apartment?

Darren

I told her to get back to work. I said, I'll work out I'll be okay. You just go to work. And that's, you know, that's quite a poignant part because it's what I've done for the last 10 years is push people away. And try to deal with it myself or try to fix it myself. I think if I look back with a bit of hindsight, if I was that, if I was me, looking down on me, I was trying to be the, the stereotypical man and say, Look, I'm alright. On please, clearly not. But I'm alright. You go to work, you carry on. And on, I'll work it out. I was able just to call in sick at that moment and say, seven. Upset Tell me. What did I whatever mean your thing? It wasn't just said that I'm not not very well, well, I'm having a day off.

Alex

Do you think it's reflective of the time that it was that in such this is 2011? Where you don't know what anxiety is? You're just feeling this thing? Do you think that if you'd have if you'd have had this breakdown now in 2022, you could have gone? Oh, that's that's anxiety, or that's a panic attack? Or these are the feelings I'm feeling?

Darren

The obvious answer to that is yes. straightaway, yes. If we fast or fast forward, or my scenario happens in 2022. Yes, the awareness, for me will be better. Having said that, my awareness has come through my journey of my mental health over 10 years, 1011 years, I think the biggest thing that's changed, where I then had the fear of my staff or my managers or calling in to say, I'm sick. I think now today, those three elements are completely different to how they were 2011. Because I think now, staff at any level, wherever you are on that staff, pyramid, people have a better or better awareness of someone who has mental health. I think secondly, being able to phone up and say, I still think there's a bit of an issue with that. I think there's still a little bit of a stigma. But I think it's more acceptable to say I'm struggling with my mental health, and therefore I won't be in the office today.

Alex

Yeah, I think it's interesting how things have changed in the last 10 years. You've got a lot of people in the public eye sports stars, footballers, film stars, all coming out talking about their, their mental health issues. But for example, your your partner Stacy, you know, if that, if this would have happened now, she would have been aware of it as well. Are you? Are you having an anxiety kind of episode? Are you having a panic attack or whatever it might be? Let's do this, this and this. I'm almost thinking that perhaps the going back home and having to call in second and you know, feeling really emotional in your you're crying, etc, at home, perhaps, that that period might not have lasted so long if we as a society as as a country, as you know, as people in the world, we'd have been quicker on this about the awareness but like, it's a stigma, isn't it? Because you have this fear, of fear of what people think and we all say, not we all but some people, and even I sometimes says I don't care what people think. But actually you do. You know, sometimes these irrational fears.

Darren

Absolutely. And, you know, there's a lot of analogies out there for you know, mental health conflict. Compared to other other illnesses or ailments, but the one I always use is if you break a bone, you have a set period of time that that bone is going to be in plaster. So it might be an eight to 10 week period where you know, you're in a cast, and everyone else knows you're in a cast. Because it's a physical thing. You then come out of plaster, and you have a period of physiotherapy. And let's put that into mental health. Because mental health isn't as straightforward as just putting a plaster around here. There's all different permutations. But the first thing on a timeline that's generally thought about or discussed is, the doctor will sign you off for two weeks. Two weeks. Therefore, people think they're gonna get better in two weeks. How can someone get better in two weeks? When they're potentially been dealing with stuff? For months, or years, it's not going to happen. If you then look at your own point of view that the brain is the most powerful thing in the world. Right? Some are not as powerful as others, right? My is not as powerful as others, right? But someone's telling me, You're gonna have two weeks to get that better. There's a problem there. What do you think? What do you think

Alex

it's difficult to put a predefined number on these things? Oh, well, you're having you got depression, you've got anxiety to Okay. Two weeks, whereas I feel like the medical community have kind of got it down a lot more when it comes to like you. I think I like that analogy. You know, you've got the leg in a cast, everyone can see it. Everyone's writing things. Probably, if your mates are on it, they'll probably do some inappropriate drawings on your plaster and things.

Darren

But ultimately, what is what is going on that cast? It's all positive, isn't it? Right? No one's gonna write a negative piece on that cast. And that's the next day whenever I talk about it is you're in that cast people see it, but they always not only are they seeing it, they're actually writing Get well soon. Right? Get well soon. Or can't wait to see you back or you know, you only a pint, whatever, whatever. Right? And, and the rude stuff, you know, it might be a pair of boobs. That helps you, right? When you've been struggling with mental health, do you get the same influx of positivity? No way. And that's because people don't see it. And there's still even today in 2022, there's still a stigma,

Alex

how were the conversations with your closest male friends about your your mental health issues didn't

Darren

happen. Didn't happen. The only person that knew the extent of my issues was my partner, Stacy. My parents didn't know. And some of that was driven by me because I still didn't know. Even though I went to the doctors, and the doctor said, oh, yeah, we think you've got some stress going on, you've got bit of depression going on. There's a bit of anxiety there. Here's some tablets. Not sure if I want to take tablets, but hey, how Hold on. And even now, I still didn't know what it was. Even when I started to understand it a little bit more. The overriding emotion was that I was a failure. And I couldn't open up. I couldn't tell anybody.

Alex

When you said you felt like a failure. But the only person who knew was your partner, Stacey, did you have kind of these fears of all she's going to think I'm less of a man, she is she going to stay with me? These are the things that men talk about, don't they, they worry when their partner finds out because they're supposed to be this masculine man, and I'm a protector, and I need to be strong and I can never be weakened. I can never show that

Darren

all of the above Alex, all of the above. And I led to that working in the finance industry that I'd been in since I was 17. Liking the material elements that goes along with that having a core belief that I want to be successful, but I need to be successful because I am a man. So yeah, absolutely. And I think the the industry that I worked in, fanned the flames. To me then blaming work, when it wasn't work. But that was the kind of, I don't want to say the Get out. But it was the obvious thing. You know, you work in finance. So you've blown out, you know, you've crashed. And I walked away, I walked away from that industry. And that's, again, added to my failure element. But I walked back in it now I'm back in here after, after a 10 year break, but I blamed the work and, and the environment. And I didn't look at this on the y's in the where's the what's

Alex

been in that industry? And from what I know about friends who work in there, and the stories that they tell me, do you think that almost contributed, some of it contributed to your, your mental health issues, because it's almost like a fight for power. I don't know if you've heard of a book called 48 Laws of Power, Robert Greene, those kinds of books and you're talking about or art of war, Sun Tzu, we're using these different strategies, because it's almost like, it's not acceptable to go around, like our ancestors did 1000s of years ago with spears and swords and kill it killing each other. So that, that sort of that kind of build up as a man, or what we used to do as men all those 1000s of years ago is now we've transferred that into the battlefield of the world of finance industry. Yeah. And it's the fight for money and control. Yeah. And

Darren

it's not just finance. You know, I don't want to I don't want to touch on finance, we've, we've, we've had a dark brush, because there's lots of people that work in finance, who were very successful and don't suffer. And as I said, I've got back into that world, and I absolutely love it. But I'm, you know, I'm a different person. But yes, there is there is elements. And for me, I kind of point out two things on that. One is the competition. So naturally, there is a competition for promotions, there's competition to be better than the person that's next to you. There's competition to make sure you don't make any mistakes. Etc, etc. And then there's the element of, well, while you're working as hard as you are, let's go and play as hard as we are. So you work hard, play hard. So you don't think nothing of going out at lunchtime, and having a couple of pints. Because that's where you get to meet people who might be able to help you out with a new job or a promotion or some more business. And then you don't think nothing of, oh, let's jump and have a cup of pints before we go home. And that just continues, you know, your weekend started on Thursday. You went out with clients, you went out your brokers, you went out your work colleagues. That was the start. So then you go Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, lunch month, you know, they get there was there was a lot of lot of drinking, and a lot of partying. And that does play its part.

Alex

Definitely. Yeah. And you're expected to and it depends on the culture as well. I've been so pleased to pick countries like Korea and Japan. And if you don't, if you your boss invites you to go out and you say no, it's a real disrespectful thing to do to to reject those overtures and say, No, actually, I won't do it. Because then you kind of question well, if I don't do it, I'm not part of the, the work gang, so to speak. And I'm kind of an outsider at that point. But that you'd like to say if you're doing Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday drinking, and you've got these clients that you've got to look after, it can all be almost like a builder, like a pressure cooker. And you know that and at some point, you can just explode. Can you tell me? How are you different now so you leave the you leave the finance industry, you take that time off that you needed? And also was that like, you know, was that kind of your medicine to be away from that for a while?

Darren

Okay, so I've worked in various different industries. I had a restaurant for a couple of years that I that was kind of like a bucket list. So I was able to do that. And I kind of tick that off and I've worked in the car industry. I'm a big petrol head, although I worked with electric cars. But all that time I kept beating myself up. You walked away from a career you walked away and that really took me to a point of suicide and and led me to being sectioned and spending six weeks in hospital. But to answer your question, why am I here? How am I different now? I've admitted that I've got mental health issues. I struggle with my mental health. I'm kind of on the on the very low end of of the bipolar scale.

Alex

How do you feel when you say, I struggle with mental health issues? Or I have that? How does it make you feel now compared to previously?

Darren

It makes me feel amazing. No one's ever asked that question. I like that. That's a great question. How do I feel I feel that I'm overcoming it. I manage my mental health now.

Alex

So what you're saying is, you're saying it comes from strength, not weakness now ret.

Darren

Correct. Admitting admitting that you have a mental health issue is definitely not a weakness. But it's taken me 11 years to work that out, right? I now had a toolbox, that's my own, that allows me to manage my mental health. And you, you follow me asked me that question. It is great that I now know how to manage my mental health. And I know all the stuff that I've found out. But just as you said, How am I feeling is is I wish I'd realised it sooner. Because I don't think I would have hurt as many people. If I hadn't known sooner.

Alex

What would you say to anyone who can admit that they've got mental health issues right now?

Darren

Pick up the phone and talk to me. And talk, man or woman, you've just got to talk to someone and tell them how you're feeling. And if you don't get the response you want from the first person? If not, you is that person. So talk to the second person. Or the third person, if it takes four or five people until you start to hear things that you want to hear. That's what it takes. Because, you know, you mentioned it earlier, Alex, you know, talking to me, you're not sure when they respond? Is it because they don't understand? Or is it because you've actually hit a raw nerve? And they're struggling? But they'll never admit that they're struggling? And that's the thing, you know, sometimes we've many is the What's he talking about? I don't really understand. And then there is other bits, guys? I can't I can't let the guard down. I can't tell him I'm feeling the same. When ultimately, you should, because then you've got shared experience, right? Go back to a broken bone. If you know someone has broken a bone. Do you ask them how they got through it? course you do. Do you offer help as well, if you've broken a leg, you say, Oh, I did this? When I did it. Now mentor, obviously I will want to format so if anyone wants to talk to me, I'll talk to him about my toolbox. But you don't just go up to someone to go Oh, you struggle with mental health. You know, and it isn't one size fits all. It's all about managing your your mental health.

Alex

It's interesting you say that because I watched a documentary with Tyson fury. And I think he was in because he's he lives in Markham. But he was with all his kids around that area. And he saw some lad, he must have been about 1314 or something. And he comes up to he comes up to Tyson I think he's artists if you can limit the size of your wherever. And this kid said Nice to meet you and walks off. And Tyson fury goes, I reckon that kid struggling with mental health. So he runs after him runs after this kid and actually says Do you struggle with mental health issue? You know, you struggle with mental health, you know, on a day to day basis, but he said Yeah, I do. And then he talked about his mother and his father and I think they had separated or whatever. So that was the that was the time that I really thought wow, that someone has actually said to someone do you struggle with mental health issues? But it's not it's not a common thing? Is it?

Darren

No, definitely not. It's not common. We're breaking through small barriers. With things like podcasts like this, you know, where people can listen to them without other people knowing. We're getting there with Andy's man club. You know, the groups are opening up every single week and it's an opportunity for men to talk, right? It's peer to peer talking so you've got a forum to talk about it. And you mentioned earlier you know more and more people in the public eye and are talking about it

Alex:

I have a lot of empathy for Darren, this was 2011, a time when people weren't willing to open up especially men, about things like their mental health and just their overall feelings day to day. For example, I could talk to my friends in 2022, about how I'm feeling if I'm having a difficult day. The idea of failure is a difficult one that's deeply rooted in males and masculinity. It's all about being a winner, all about being strong, all about making our parents proud of us by coming first in the running race at school. I feel like we have a distorted view of failure. It doesn't mean that we're tainted in any way, it doesn't mean that we're broken. It's something that we can use to improve for next time, but it's often not seen that way. I like the quote that Gary Neville, the ex Manchester United footballer says about failure. He says that failure is a bruise, not a tattoo. A tattoo makes you think of something that's permanent failure isn't permanent. In the episode, Darren talked about when people were a cast, and we make light of it, we look upon it as a positive thing where we write encouraging statements on the on the cast. And in some cases, we put funny little jokes on there as well. And the same can't be said for mental health. It's not like you can wear a band that says I have mental health problems on your forehead. So what do we do in this situation? Well, how about we associate ourselves with people who are going to lift us up, not bring us down? If all of your friends are positive, uplifting people, then chances are you'll be that way as well.

Thanks so much for listening to today's episode with Darren. If you'd like to learn more about our voices, make sure you go to our website, ourvoicespodcast.com. And also follow us on Spotify. And while you're there, it would be great if you could give us a five star rating. It would really help us to grow the show. Thanks so much. And we look forward to giving you another incredible episode next week.