What's

the ramen like?

The ramen,

it's delicious.

All the food is delicious.

They are very food

centric country.

And it's really interesting

when you read reviews of

restaurants though, they

don't review the food,

they review the service.

So it's service and food.

And if they're gonna complain

about something, they usually

complain about the service.

I,

Is that, is

that because the food

is always so good?

it is 90% of

the time really good.

We've, we've had one

experience where the food was

ordinary, but it wasn't bad.

It was just not good.

So I think the standard

is so high for food.

yeah, it's incredible.

And it's much easier to

eat healthily here too when

you're on the go, because

any convenience store, all

the supermarkets, they've

all got pre-prepared meals.

Which are always your 3, 3, 3.

They're always a really

good mix of carb, protein,

and vegetables, so you can

really, you don't have to

cook if you don't want to,

so

so

you're not picking up a kebab

good.

Which I love.

'cause big pardon?

going to, I, I'm,

I'm going to, um, I'm

actually gonna Japan next,

and I'm so excited to.

Yeah, it's a

fantastic place to visit too.

which is quite, quite

different to living

here, but yeah.

Um,

Yeah.

So, so we probably should,

uh, we should probably should

introduce our guest today.

we have Amelia and Amelia,

I'm gonna get you to

pronounce your last name.

I remember last

time I tried to

Can I have a go?

but

Is it Yao?

perfect.

Is that right?

Am I actually Perfect.

Yeah.

that's right.

So it, it actually in English,

going guys.

I'm done.

My, my name is

Emily Jacobson, so, uh,

that's what translate.

So the yakov is Jacob and

Eno is little one or son of,

so it's, it's an uncommon

southern Italian name.

But 'cause the southern

part of Italy had a

lot of migration across

from, uh, middle East.

And so

Down through Pulia

or Calabria or whereabouts,

from

actually bus la Kata.

Yeah, it's down where the

heel and the toe meet.

So

So that, that's like

now let down near lecture kind

of on the other side of, yeah.

there is, there

is a reason why we

have Amelia on today.

Um,

about food.

and myself, Matt

and myself, have both

been, you know, um, had a

business relationship with

Amelia for a long time

because Amelia is one of

Australia's one of four.

Certifiers

one of Five

Certifiers.

Yeah.

Certifiers.

Amelia, do you wanna tell

who, what is and why we're,

it's not about Japanese.

we could,

we could do a whole

separate podcast on that.

Um, yeah, so, I currently

work for Detail Green with

Luke Plowman, who's also

another of the passive

house service of fires.

One of Australia's first,

and Luke's the one, the

person why I ended up

working in passive house.

And, um, becoming a certifier.

So I started when I, when I

was in high school, actually,

I wanted to be an architect

and my mom said, oh, there's

no jobs for architect.

Be an engineer.

And I'm like,

what's an engineer?

She's like, oh, they build

bridges and buildings.

And I was like,

eh, could be good.

I was a huge Lego

fan as a kid, so it

sounded pretty good.

So I did engineering and

I ended up actually doing

electrical engineering

and then ended up working

in automotive for 10

years on electrical

and electronic systems.

And then I was actually,

we were, we in, and in

that time we lived in

Japan for two years.

So I, I was transferred with

Ford, uh, worked on a project

with Mazda Car for China.

Um, for the China

market, which was an

excellent experience.

And when I came back from that

time in Japan, we decided to

renovate our place 'cause we'd

been living in an apartment

in Japan and, you know, it

gets really, really hot and

humid here and really cold.

And I was warmer in Japan

than I had been living in

Australia and came back to

Australia to, uh, you know,

1970s, single brick, brick

veneer, single glazed house.

And I went, oh,

this is so cold.

This is terrible.

I need to do

something about it.

So we decided to

retrofit our house.

And while I was doing

that, I was kind of really

disappointed in the lack

of information around

about how to make a house

comfortable and warm.

Just didn't really seem

part of why you retrofitted,

uh, houses in those days.

And a friend of mine

was doing a master's of

engineering in renewable

energy and energy efficiency,

and she said to me, oh,

you'll love this, Amelia.

It's all about what you wanna

know about how to reduce

your energy and et cetera.

And so I enrolled in

that and really liked it.

Did that.

And um, so then I tr I started

working in energy efficiency,

uh, doing consulting,

retrofitting, industrial

commercial buildings

and really enjoyed that.

That was great.

And I really did through that

course, develop a belief that

energy efficiency should be

done before renewable energy.

That, that efficiency

first philosophy.

And, then I took a break.

Michael had long service

leave, so I took a break

and we spent some time

traveling around with,

uh, two little kids and.

then after that I was emailing

Luke about portable houses

because a friend was asking

about them when prefab, and he

and I said, oh, I'm gonna look

for a new job when my youngest

starts primary school,

which was the next year.

And he said, ah, I just

signed a contract to

do some energy audits.

But I need some help.

Can you come and

do them with me?

So I started working with

Luke, doing energy audits.

Um, and then he said to me,

oh, do you wanna learn how

to do Nat her assessments?

I'm like, yeah, sure.

And then he said, I think you

might be really interested

in this passive house.

Here's this book about it.

So he gave me a book.

He said, it's all about

energy efficiency.

You'll love it.

And I read the book

and I went, ah, stuff,

the energy efficiency.

I want a house that's 20 to

25 degrees all year round.

I wanna get rid of the

UGG boots, I wanna get

rid of the winter dos.

And you know, the

pajamas I have.

Summer pajamas,

autumn pajamas, spring

pajamas, winter pajamas.

And it's just crazy the

amount of stuff to keep

yourself warm inside a

house to keep yourself

at the right temperature.

So I was like,

yeah, this is good.

And so then I did the passive

house designers course.

So I actually started

working on phpp.

First learning

how to use them.

And then I did the

designers course.

So, which is not the

way most people do it.

And then, but as soon

as I did the designers

course, I was like, no,

I wanna be a certifier.

Because to me, a certifier

is, is a similar role

to an energy auditor.

You're, you know, you are

looking at things, you

reviewing the data, and you

are looking for opportunities,

and you're looking for

things that don't look right.

Um, and you are

helping people.

So when you're doing energy

audits, you're helping,

particularly, we work with

a lot of small to medium,

uh, businesses, keeping

them in business by reducing

their operating costs.

So I really like

that aspect of that.

I also am coming from

automotive where you

had a product that was,

you know, 50,000 or a

hundred thousand dollars.

And the amount of testing

we did on those products,

every single one that was

manufactured was tested.

And I thought.

That's what you

need in houses.

If you are building something

that's a million dollars or

500,000, a million dollars,

2 million, you've gotta

be testing that product.

What are you doing to verify

that product is actually

delivering the specification?

That's being designed

to, and there are so many

people involved in designing

and building a house.

It's a huge team.

There's so much knowledge

in this to get to the end

point and have, you know,

not use that knowledge or

not follow that knowledge to

me is a missed opportunity.

So that's what I also

really like about passive

house is that it is really

valuing all those inputs.

It's, you know, I check the

structural drawings, I check

the architectural drawings,

I check the materials

that are gonna be used.

And yes, there is some

limited, you know, it does

reduce flexibility in that.

If you've said you're

gonna use this product.

You need to use that product,

but you can say, oh, I

can't find that product.

As we know, Hamish, the

project we worked on, we had

one particular supplier of

windows that we intended on

using and there were supply

issues, so we changed to

a different window supply.

And you know, that just

meant that there was a

communication involved.

And that's the

biggest thing is that there's

a lot more communication.

Anything that changes needs

to be checked to make sure

what impact that is doing.

And the client knows then

that show those changes

are happening, but that

they're still going to

get that the product

that they're paying for.

So I want to go back

to when you get a project

to come across your desk

Yep.

and you are like, you

are looking at certifying it.

We have someone like Cameron

who has done all the original

documentation on this, and

you can't get involved in

that side of the passive house

because you are, independent.

Essentially

Correct.

what do you

start to look at first?

Like where do you start?

So we look at the data

that has been entered into

the passive house planning

tool to check that it matches

the supporting documentation.

So Cameron, or whichever

passive house designer

is leading the project.

So they're the lead,

we are the support.

They will take the information

that they're given from

architects, uh, mechanical

services engineers, um,

structural engineers, and

they'll put that information

into the planning tool and

into the 3D modeling tool.

We check that that information

matches because we are all

humans and it's very easy

to make an error when you're

putting in a lot of data.

So we, we check that

the right climate file

has been selected.

We checked that the geometry

matches the geometry

of the 3D model matches

what's on the drawings.

We check that the

specification of insulating

layers, matches the

architectural drawings

and window specifications

match what comes from

the supplier and, AC and

hvac, that they match any

information from the supplier.

So it depends what we

review depends at when we

are reviewing the project.

So for some projects we

would do an initial review,

that's just the geometry and

the shading and the climate.

That's it.

and then we'll do a

subsequent review when

you've defined things like

the suppliers for Windows,

HVAC layout, et cetera.

And this should

all be done before we

start on site just to

make, no, not Preferably.

It needs to be done.

If you're going for

certification or even

thinking about it

before you get on site,

I mean, what

of approval,

you, you just.

I mean, and, and I'm, and

I'm learning this from all,

from my experience, right?

You, you, you want to know

that it's on track to get

certified before you start.

Like you, you have the tools

to do it, so why not do it

where it's costing you the

least amount of money at the

very beginning of the project.

Um, can I just, just, just,

just to confirm, there's,

there's two people, you

know, in that kind of

certifi and designer space.

I just want to clarify

for everybody that these

are two different people.

So you've got the designer

who's working with you and

the design team, and then

you've got a certifier

who's almost the, what do we

call

them?

the, person that is the,

the, they're the examiner.

They're the examiner,

Yeah, basically we, we

are like a building surveyor,

so we just work on the design

side of it and limited to the

passive house aspects of it.

So we don't review any NCC

compliance aspects that is all

up to the building surveyor.

So we are not, it's a

parallel review process.

It's, it's not taking

over that role.

so I've got

two questions here.

So you said that the, the

person who's doing the PHPP,

the passive house planning

package, they make mistakes

at times and you've gotta

go through and pick them up.

Now, cam has given me a

few really tricky questions

for you later, and

He's not keeping

them for the, the meet the

I wanna know what

cam mistakes CAM has made

in the past that we can

make other people aware of.

To, um, maybe not make these

mistakes in the future.

And also are there any

other big mistakes you've

seen along the way?

And part two to that question

is like, what happens if

you make the mistake as well

and don't pick up on it?

What happens there?

Yes.

All very good questions.

So, commonly made mistakes.

The most common mistake

that was made in the

past was errors in

calculating manual shading.

It was really complicated.

So when I started there was,

as a designer and um, and

as a certifier, initially

there was no 3D shading

process for passive house.

So you had to do these

complicated equations

inside an already

complicated Excel sheet

and.

manual shading is when we

are relying on the client to

pull down an external bind.

Oh, no,

sorry, sorry, sorry.

Um, that's additional shading.

Sorry, I should clarify.

So in the, like, in Nat

has assessments, you draw

up the model and you put

in surrounding buildings,

you draw in the surrounding

buildings to see where

you're gonna get the sun onto

the building and, and into

the windows and et cetera.

How much solar gain

you're gonna get, uh,

both in summer and winter.

So for the passive

house planning tool, uh,

initially you had to, you

didn't draw anything up.

So initially when the tool

was developed, it was just

an Excel sheet and you used

the architectural drawings to

put all the information in.

So the shading information

you put in, like the adjacent

buildings, you would actually

put that in as an equation.

That was seriously

complicated.

Really complicated to

learn how to do that.

And that was the bit that

always took us the longest

to review and where the most

commonly made mistakes were.

Is that like a tree?

Is a tree, an example of that?

yeah, like a tree.

A tree, yeah.

A

existing building.

Existing building in

your

other

buildings building.

Yep, exactly.

Exactly.

And is that, is that

just, just to confirm now,

that's done in design pH

in like a sketch up file?

that is now.

So that is now designed pH

and that has made a huge

difference because the

shading is more accurate

and it's faster for the

designer and it's faster

for the certified to review.

So it's a huge improvement.

Like design pH has

really shifted the whole

passive house planning

process to a new level.

It's, it's.

Been great.

And there's actually

some additional changes

that have just come out

recently, which actually

relate to shading as well.

because one of the other

major issues was picking

the right climate file.

So there are, the passive

house institute in Germany

has approved CLI climate

files that you use.

So they're ensuring that

they've got sufficient data

behind them to be accurate.

And there are some locations,

particularly along coastal

Victoria, such as the

Mornington Peninsula,

where there are multiple

files that you can pick.

And it's not necessarily

just what the closest file

is, the closest location.

So it, it can be about the

topography of the location,

the altitude of the location.

That's really important.

So picking the

right climate file.

Is is one of the other ones

that, that's probably still

the most important one.

And

these are past client

fi client files.

They're not, they're

not based on the future

of what might happen.

They're based off, because

I know Nat, hers is set from

ages and ages ago, isn't it?

So when we talk climate, false

and nat, hers versus climate

false or passive house.

What's more accurate?

Well, I, I was

just gonna, just, just, uh,

and it's relating to this

question too, Matt, because

climate files are one thing.

In, in PHPP you are probably

referring to climate zones

So the climate

data in general across both

passive house and Nat Hers

is there, is got the same

issue that it is all using

historical data and as we

know, recent climate is not

quite like it used to be.

So You know, the NATHA

data, I'm not exactly

sure when they limit it,

how far back they go.

it's probably

from late, the 18

hundreds, isn't it?

probably passive house

has a limit on how far back,

because they actually have

a tool for certifiers to use

when there is this conflict

about which file, which, which

data file should we be using.

There is actually a tool

we have to do some further

assessments on different

data files and pull in bomb

data to actually make a

comparison for specific sites

Bureau, bureau

of Meteorology for those

who aren't understanding

just released

an awesome update

to their app too.

I've got a question though

to follow with this.

'cause I'm, I've just spent

my second night in my new

passive house and we talk

about that, the shading

A show off.

Matt.

I, know just drop,

drop the Neck Ground designs

I, I,

woke.

I

soon by the time

that this is aired on tv.

morning, Amelia.

Um, yeah, I

Don't worry.

I got that.

Yes.

I,

Um, I

didn't have that.

It was nice.

I woke up and it

was 20 degrees.

The, uh, first time in a

long time, that's happened

without a heater, so actually

ever, but I'm digressing.

So my house now is obviously

gone through the modeling and

the shading and the water's

put around from around me.

If my neighbor decides to

build something that's double

story that affects my north

face glazing is my house

no longer a passive house.

Oh, very

good question.

The certification is at that

point in time, so whatever

happens beyond that point

in time is out of the scope.

Like with any type of

assessment, there is

boundary conditions and so.

For a passive house, it's

at this point in time,

the same as Nat hers.

It's at this point in time.

So the same in Nat, hers.

You, you have to

model what is there.

Um, you, if there are empty

blocks in both passive house

and Nat hers, you have to put

something on the empty blocks.

So if there's a new

housing estate, there's

an assumption that there's

gonna be houses next to you.

The assumption is always,

it's a, you know, for

Australian that it's

always a double story house

that's built next to you.

So you, you and you often

take the house that you are

building and plop that onto

the surrounding properties.

So you do have to take

into account future

building for new estates.

But yeah, it is depe

dependent on what's there.

The same with trees.

So Natters, you don't model

trees at all in passive house.

You do have to model

existing trees.

You can't model trees, new

trees that are being planted.

So any new landscaping that's

done as part of a new build.

Is not in the scope

because you don't know

what's gonna be planned.

Pardon?

We had a tree

that got us across the

line on the project.

It was killing us.

And

Yeah.

People who originally

ran the numbers, had made

a few mistakes, um, and

assumed some things that

were totally irrelevant.

And it was looking like

we might not get to

certification level on 15.5.

And then one day the clients

woke up out the back and the

back tree that was killing

everything was getting chopped

down by cancel, and then

just dropped their heating

demand by a huge amount.

And we passed.

That is.

so, so it was,

so, it was, it, was

it, was it stopping?

Uh, solar.

Solar

Yep.

Yep.

It was completely shading

everything to a point

where we had, we even got

Cam involved to find any

little issues with it.

Um.

The file that was originally

produced at the start,

and this is why we go

back to what we said,

get the project approved

before you get to site.

They ran the PHPP on like

the concept plan, never

touched anything, changed.

The windows didn't change,

change, installation,

didn't do anything,

didn't tell anyone.

The other thing is they

changed the color of the

house from black to white,

which made a huge change

as well on the performance.

Um, and the same as the roof.

And then that just completely

killed the project.

And we ended up getting it

certified.

disclosure, we're

not advocating for people to

go on trees down if it means

that you're failing your PPP.

I was at the time.

Um, but not,

Well.

but we didn't

know this was gonna happen.

It was like, oh yeah.

cool.

Um, I was, got

the plaque on the

Look, so I think,

and, and that actually,

so exactly that situation

is why you do want things

reviewed early because.

The certifier would've

picked up that what was

in the PHPP wasn't what

was in the drawing set and

said, these don't match.

You need to adjust all these.

So it is not our job

as a certifier to

change everything.

We do assist if designers

are finding, not quite

understanding what they need

to put into a particular

section or what's relevant

or what's not relevant, we

can assist them with them.

But it's up to the

designer to fix their PHVP.

So in that case, we, we

have a checklist, and on

that checklist it would've

been exterior color doesn't

match, you know, check, check

this, and it would've been

listed as a review item.

A lot of those

So that, that it

actually totally brings you

back to that because Yeah,

and because in that case,

you would've gone, okay, this

tree's not getting enough.

We we're blocking everything.

We've tried everything else.

What else can we do?

And yes, you're

absolutely right, Hamish.

It's a lot cheaper to spend

hours in the design stage

fiddling around with numbers

on paper than it is at the

construction stage trying

to like go, oh, can we put

some extra insulation in?

Where have we got space?

Ask Dylan about that.

Didn't he have a few issues

towards the end of his.

yes.

Yeah.

And, and that, that is

a really good example of

a project where both the

passive house designer

and the builder, it was

their first project.

they, you know, they

did everything, all the

certification work was

done post-construction.

They're both now on

subsequent projects.

And, you know, we are getting

a, and I'm reviewing some of

those projects before we go

into construction or earlier.

So, so, yeah.

So

we all, we

all, we all need to

start somewhere, right?

Like, I, I

am, you know, definitely the

sum of the times that I've

made mistakes, you know,

and, you know, you, you, you.

You, you brought up the

issue that we had on one

of our projects, which, uh,

you know, through a whole,

whole range of reasons,

you know, bang, smack

in the middle of COVID

man, like, you know,

and

Yes.

Oh, it was so

so

any excuses for

my decisions, but, you

know, you, you kind of just

focusing on putting one

foot in front of the other

during

that

Yeah, yeah.

Did it get

certified in the

end?

it did.

energy,

My hair went.

Yeah,

My hair went gray.

Getting that over the limit.

yeah, yeah, yeah.

So, so set up.

But, but you know what I, I,

I do wanna, I do wanna sort

of draw attention to the

importance of having a really

great relationship with your,

um, passive house designer.

We've got a, passive house

project under construction

at the moment, which we had

modeled in pre-construction

and it was passing No problem.

It's under construction

at the moment.

We actually noticed.

During the window install

that the big sliding doors

were actually projecting out.

We couldn't bring them into

the building any further.

And that the, the doors

were one, one of the double

stackers was actually

outside, just outside

the thermal envelope.

And I'd say not all

of the glazing, but

some of the glazing.

And thankfully my team

picked it up and said,

hang on a minute,

something's wrong here.

So we actually went back to

Elsie and said, Hey, we really

think we need to do a thermal

bridge analysis on this.

And as it turned out,

because of that thermal

bridge, we were actually

outside of the heating

demand by just a little bit.

Now, luckily, we managed to

get it across the line from

insulating around the doors,

just with some 25 mil XBS.

And we also.

Uh, insulated the service

cavity inside and it got

us back over the line.

you don't want to be

making those decisions

on the fly because it's

just unnecessary stress.

Now this is a really, that

we're not talking a compact

form home, like one that

really, you know, lends

itself to passive house.

It was a double story

with angles and lots of

different surface area.

Like it's a small compact

building, um, challenging

I guess surface areas,

which aren't great for

passive house projects.

You want a nice compact

block on block kind of form.

This one isn't that, but

we've got a great on team,

on site and we've got a great

relationship with designer.

So, you know, even if the.

I guess I'm bringing this up

to show that even if you do

model it in pre-construction,

you still need to be making

sure that you're actually

nailing it along the way.

And if you do see any

issues, bring it up straight

away because you don't

want to get all the way

to the end and then find

out that you're failing.

We, we were lucky we'd

hit that point where we'd

actually, we, we could go in,

insulate it and we're, we're

well within criteria now.

and that's

another point, like, so

if you are reviewing it

before construction and

you are keeping your.

The passive house planning

package up to date,

the PHVP up to date.

Then when you are during

construction and there are

things like this, it's easy

for the designer to say

what is the impact of this?

But if the designer's only

done an initial assessment

and it hasn't been updated

and it doesn't match the

construction drawings and

it hasn't been reviewed,

then whatever happens

during construction, the

designer would have to bring

the entire PHPP up to the

construction level, whatever

specifications to be able to

assess that one little change.

So having that PHPP at

construction level reviewed,

okay, everything is good.

Then it makes it really

easy for when these

situations arise and

these situations will

arise, things will happen.

And so being able to talk to

your passive house designer

about that, and the same

with the passive house

designer to the certifier.

So I get emails saying, oh,

we've, this has come up.

I've got one from Cameron.

That's something that's come

up with NCC compliance, which

means they need to change

something on the passive

house assumptions, you know?

And we are working through

that now and that's easy to

do because we are right at

just pre-construction, but

everything is up to date.

So we can make this one

little change and Cameron

can say, this is the impact.

And I can see there's

this error coming up,

this comfort issue area.

Can we get a um, exemption

from this because

of this, this, this.

So yeah.

So that's the other thing

that designers can do is they

can come to certifiers at

any point during the time the

certifiers already on their

project and the certifier

knows what's going on.

They pull up and they

say, this is this error,

there's this issue.

Is this allowable?

And so we do that

right from the start.

So with the whole climate

locations, we can go as a

certifier, we can say, you

need to use this file, or

if we don't know whether

that's the right file, we

can go back to the PHI and.

This, I've done this review.

These are the two

climate files.

I think as a certifier,

they should be using

this climate file.

can you agree with that?

So I can tell a

you, you mentioned

PHI before and I just wanna

clarify, um, and this probably

circles back to something

that Matt brought up before.

So, PI is passive, uh,

passive house institute.

In Germany.

Germany.

Um, and Matt actually asked

a question before about

what happens when you make

a mistake as the certifier

Yeah.

She skipped over

that one, didn't she?

she.

Yeah, and look, every,

we're all human.

We all

make mistakes.

But you know, the beauty about

the beauty about a certified

building is that we're

testing in pre construction,

Amelia or whoever the

certifier is, making

sure that it complies in

yeah,

as, as per the

construction documents.

As builders, we are building

it as per plans and making

any updates and changes along

the way, getting it tested

by the designer, making

sure it's still complies

At the end of construction,

we're giving you all the

documentation, including

blower doors, including

the HRV certification,

including all the acs, et

cetera, et cetera, and a

hundred thousand pictures.

You are then saying, yes, it

complies, but the last check,

and this is, this is the

brilliant part of it, you are

then sending it off to PHI

and then they're verifying it.

So if we look at all

the checks that go along

the way, and then if you

compare that to dare I say

a seven star rating, which

is just their seven star,

no one's checking that.

And then you sign something

in of it saying you

before you build as well.

Like just how robust that

process is means that what

was actually being designed,

if it gets certified, you

as a client knows, well, uh,

assure, assure can be that

your building is going to

perform as documented because

of all of those fail safe

processes along the way.

Correct.

That's right.

And when a certifier

first gets their

qualification, they become

a certifier in training.

And the PHI review

every single one of

their submissions.

So I think about the first

My project was one of

of mine.

Yes, yes, that's right.

So they send me back

a list of questions.

If there's things that

they, there isn't sufficient

information to be clear or

there is an input error, they

will send it back and it needs

to be resolved before they

will issue the certificate.

There's also, if there's

something, we have a project

which doesn't have an exhaust

and a supply in a particular

area, they're going to use.

Have cross ventilation

through a door.

So instead it's gonna

have to have an exemption

listed on the certificate.

So there are also things

that they will issue the

certificate, but with a

caveat that there is this

and you need to pay, in this

particular case, need to pay

attention to the risk of, of

Just so you guys

know, Juniper is going to

join us in this podcast.

Now, my um, my youngest, my

youngest daughter, Amelia, I

don't know if you know, but

we,

She's talk,

she's talking early.

She is fourth

we've had a little,

had a, had a little girl.

She's about to come in and

I'm about to get, she's

about to get strapped

to me and I'm gonna

Wow.

a walk 'cause

we're having this podcast.

Um, Amil.

Amelia,

a

great

idea.

Amazing.

Amazing what you can do.

Congratulations, Hamish,

you and Matthew both.

Living the dream.

Uh, is this your,

um, one for the country?

Hamish, your third?

Wait, there's

one for the country here?

Yeah.

it's my third.

Um, a little girl this time.

Uh, and uh, she's,

um, I'll show you.

Here she is, everybody.

Juniper

Oh

Oh, she's

getting, she's growing.

Very cute.

Yeah, she's growing.

She loves her.

Why is PHPP

on a spreadsheet?

Surely someone's come out with

a proper program that can like

identify half these issues.

Like the passive house

community is quite

smart and I feel like

what X Excel is a great tool.

to, that brings us

to Easy pH, and also I didn't

get to tell you about design

pH, the recent changes, which

are actually SketchUp changes.

So SketchUp has this new

tool, a geolocation tool,

so Cam, just before

we start, cam has said Easy

PH is superficial, rubbish.

So Cameron is an

engineer like me, and he

loves his detail like I do,

and he likes things to be as

precise as possible, which

I do too, but I'm a realist

and that equals more money.

So by using Easy Z pH, it

reduces the workload for

designers, it reduces the

workload for certifiers,

and you're still getting

a certified product.

And it is only allowed to

be used for single family

homes and duplexes and

only for, classic and plus.

So if you're still going

for premium, you have to

use the full PHPP and if

you are doing any commercial

buildings, so you gotta do all

What is easy?

What is easy,

wait.

Isn't premium just

more solar though?

You just got a

bigger solar system?

For plus

Yes.

A

for premium?

No, no, no, no.

So for, no, no, no.

So for premium, the

certifiers have to review

a whole lot more data.

We have to have like, so

every single little bit

of electrical appliances

needs a data sheet and we

have to have it, right?

It's, it is a, no, we, it's

actually triple checked.

So it's, it's another

level of checking.

So when you submit a

premium to the PHI, they

will review the entire

project, no matter how long

you've been a certifier,

that, that is like

If I had two

premiums, look at this.

So

How's the

flex on Maddie?

I reckon I've

got two premiums.

No, I, I don't.

Maybe I don't.

I've,

for a walk on

my treadmill to get

Juniper asleep, so if

I'm walking, that's why.

I've, I've been a

designer and a certifier on

premium, on a premium project.

And yeah, this, it's a lot

more work on both ends,

both from both the designer

and the certifier side.

So, um, yeah, exactly.

Plus, plus is actually

relatively easy in

Australia because we have

such great, uh, energy

production from, from pv.

So, going back to design pH

with this new geolocation

tool, so all designers

out there, open your

sketch up, go in and find

your geolocation tool.

You put your GPS data or the

site address in, it downloads

your entire, all, all the,

all the geolocation data.

So you can put your, including

the orientation of the site

and the altitude so you

can do everything you need

to do for passive house

in terms of your location.

Your altitude, your

direction of site

comes in automatically.

There's no having to

get confused between a

site survey, which uses

true North versus grid

North versus other.

There's like three

different types of north.

So all passive house

designers, I'm now using

that to check all projects

that are coming in, and I'm

saying to all passive house

designers use this tool.

It also has a huge advantage

for sites that are in,

in developed areas that

there is a 3D import

of existing buildings.

So designers no longer have

to draw up all the adjoining

as neighboring houses.

They all come in things

like, um, water tanks

come in, sheds come in.

Just anything that is a

3D item on those sites are

automatically pulled in.

So,

is that, is that being pulled

in from satellite imagery?

Is that, what is that?

Is that how it's all working?

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's amazing.

It is amazing tool.

So it's like it will cut

another huge amount of

time off designers load and

certifiers because I can

see that all the surrounding

buildings are already there.

I don't have to go and

then check on Google

Maps and check this and

check that it's there.

And the orientation's correct.

And with the GPS data, it

automatically also, because

you've got the design pH

tool built in there, selects

the right climate file.

The climate file that PHPP

say you should use if you have

an

Matt, what?

Matt, why doesn't,

why doesn't, why

doesn't Ken like this?

This

no, no.

So we can use this

on normal PHPP.

So this works for

normal PHPP as well.

This doesn't, this you

can use across normal PHP.

This, this tool just

came out like last month.

This is a brand new tool.

So Cameron probably hasn't

started using it yet.

I don't know if I've

Were you all excited

when this tool came out?

Were you just like,

woo, new tool?

Like, well, it

was, I have to give, where

credit is due is actually

my colleague Paul Gray.

He's the one, he, he does,

a lot of design work and

he's the one who said, Luke

Amelia, there's this new tool.

It's so cool.

So he actually

showed it to us.

Se it, se it

seems like, it seems

so, it seems so obvious.

I'm just gonna circle back

to something really quickly

that you said earlier on.

Like you, you said that

you weren't interested in

just, you know, putting

solar panels on, you know,

and all that kind of stuff.

'cause you were, you

were, you were all about,

um, actual comfort and

the fabric of the home.

Why not just put a bunch

of solar on and put

batteries on and just run

your ACS all the time?

because that doesn't

really make you comfortable.

Like, it makes you cold

or it makes you hot, but

it's not comfortable.

Like it doesn't

get rid of drafts,

it doesn't get rid

of condensation.

It doesn't improve

air quality.

Yeah, exactly.

So while there's, and there

is those two things that,

that, the comfort is not just

the temperature, the comfort

is things like humidity.

The comfort is things like

air quality, not falling

asleep at two o'clock

in the afternoon because

there's no fresh air in

the, in the room you're in.

it's not sitting by a

window and having to put

an extra blanket on because

it's single glazed glass.

Like, it doesn't matter if

your heating's pumping out,

if the window is cold and

you're sitting next to the

window, you will be cold.

That's

is exactly,

this is exactly, what

I wanted you to say.

This is exactly

what I wanted you to

say.

And, and, and look, I don't

wanna discredit the fact

that, so solar and batteries,

in my opinion, are important

they're a

because,

so important.

you know, it's

technology and, and honestly,

your, your home, even if it's

a passive house, is still

going to use electricity.

It's

still

gonna

use energy just

a hell of a lot

more.

absolutely.

And people are

also putting pools on.

But people are also putting,

um, you know, they're having

EV chargers, so they do, you

know, solar and batteries.

Are an important part of a

passive house, but I just

love the fact that you

just talked on the comfort.

So, so, so

Amelia, passive house

premium is that net

positive energy.

Correct,

and then plus

is zero energy building.

correct.

Good.

Are you, you're checking

on my definitions.

I've got,

I've got Gemini

have to reread the

net zero.

building for building

services Energy.

Energy generated roughly

equals total energy consumed.

So why isn't that then done,

say a year and a half post

occupancy to see if they're

producing more or less.

Rather than based off

data That is hypothetical.

'cause passive house

isn't very hypothetical.

It's all about the data.

Why aren't we looking

at like premium

or

you, do put in, you

do put in, there is a tab for

PV and you have to put all

the data in for the PV system.

So there is an assessment.

the PV technology is

so, it's really old now.

I mean, it's stable.

You know exactly what you're

getting outta those panels,

the data sheets, are accurate.

so you, you don't really

need to say, ah, yeah, let's

check that the PV system

is actually generating as

energy.

use isn't accurate.

If we, if we are looking

here at like what the

client uses, if they start

running all these extra

things and then charging

three or four cars, well

now they're not generating

more power than they need.

So then

Yes, because

once again, we have to

talk about boundaries.

The boundary of of, of passive

house is the thermal envelope.

So it is the energy

that is consumed within

the thermal envelope.

Yeah, you could, you

could try and extend it

to everything, but where

do you draw the line?

so pools aren't

So, so that's it.

Pools are not included.

If you have a hot water tap

outside in your, if you've

got an outdoor barbecue area

with a hot water tap that is

supplied by the same hot water

system that the rest of your

house is, that is included

because it is the system that

is su supplying the house.

But if you had a separate hot

water system for an outdoor

kitchen, like an under sink

one, that wouldn't be included

in the electrical loads

But wouldn't

that be with the solar?

The solar supplying the house,

but it's also supplying the,

car.

it does, but.

Again, there is

that definition, and

that's where it's

limited.

Matt.

Come

on,

No, I'm

just poking here,

on.

you know what,

I'm, I,

you know, but Matthew,

but you, what you can do as

a designer or as a client

is ask the designer, say, I

intend on charging two cars.

I intend on having a pool.

Can you add those loads in

and tell me what it does?

So the tool is so powerful

that you can use it to

do anything you want.

And the same with

the client files.

So the passive house planning

package has a option to

increase the temperature.

So you can put

in, ah, actually.

This data, this

data set is too old.

I want all the climate data

to be two degrees warmer.

What does that

do to my design?

How do I need to adjust it

to deal for two degrees?

And there is actually a

stress test chart in the

PHPP under the summer tab

that actually shows you what

happens if you don't use

your temporary shading, if

you don't open your windows

overnight, and what happens

if the temperature increases.

So you can look

at all of that.

There is a difference between

how you use a tool as a

designer and how you certify.

So certification has

assumptions built into it.

So even what Cameron was

saying is, you know, easy,

Z pH has more assumptions

built in of things that the

passive house institute over

the last 30 years have worked

out, don't really have much

impact on single family homes.

So one of them is hot

water pipe distributions.

So in the full passive

house, PHPP, you've got

to draw up a whole picture

and calculate exactly the

routes and the piping and

the lengths of the piping,

and when they go

upstairs and downstairs.

Exactly.

It's annoying thing to do.

It's an annoying thing

to review and it really

doesn't make a difference.

Easy pH, you don't have to

do that easy pH, you don't

have to do the ground sheet

easy pH, you don't have

to do the electricity tab.

Even if you're doing

plus, there is a

lot less work in it.

For things that really

have minimal impact.

So Cam said he's

always right, so it looks like

he's wrong in this situation.

I, the, the issue

is that going, if you

are really an expert at

using PHPP, you're very

comfortable using that tool.

And even myself, although

talked about how bad manual

shading was before design

pH came in, even when design

pH first came in, I sat, I

went and did a course and to

learn how to use SketchUp.

'cause that's not something

I'd used in the past.

I came outta that course and

went, oh, this is too hard.

I can't be bothered

learning this.

I'm just gonna keep

doing manual shading.

You know it because, because

it is that human psyche of

having to learn something new.

And that is, you know, one of

the barriers to passive house

in Australia and anywhere in

the world is it something new.

We have to do

something different.

We have to learn something.

We have to maybe accept that

something we were doing was

not the best way to do it.

So there's a lot of things

there that humans have

difficulty dealing with,

not just in construction,

but in every aspect

of life and society.

Change is,

change is hard.

Like, you know, we've

gotta, we've got so many

other things that we've

gotta deal with in life.

Like, be a parent, be

a husband, be a wife,

you know, be a friend.

You know, if we add this

other complexity into

our work life, like why

would we bother doing it?

and, and I know I live in

a bubble and I, and I talk

to, you know, the three

of us sitting here right

now are so like convinced

that passive house is

the way to build really

great, predictable homes.

I think once people understand

it and actually realize

that it isn't that hard,

then, you know, and I

think once we get over

that barrier and that

boundary, I think we're gonna

start seeing a lot more.

But, um, yeah, people

just don't like,

people just don't like

change.

ask both of you?

Do you think that's the

reason why we don't have

widespread adoption of

passive house in Australia?

don't think it's

widely adopted now because,

um, it's not mandated.

I think the code is, the

code is so bare minimum that

people are like, oh, well,

we'll just build to code

because that's what I've been

told is what I have to do.

Widespread adoption

needs to start at that,

um, that standard level.

that's right.

So obviously when you've

got countries where the

governments have mandated

passive house or code that is

very close to passive house,

yeah, you're gonna

have a lot higher

I think Portugal

practically mandated it.

Yeah.

And

Mm-hmm.

yeah,

Wow.

and also governments

like Ireland has a lot of

social housing and a lot

of retrofit programs that

are government run and

they're all being done to

passive house because the

government's paying for

it and they're gonna pay

for the running costs.

So anywhere where you've got,

you know, build to rent all

of those type, when you've

got the developer or the owner

forking out the energy bills

and the maintenance bills,

then you have huge adoption.

So when you have a situation

where the person who's

designing the house and

building the house then

totally walks away and it's

all up to the owner to deal

with, anything that hasn't

been correctly built or

anything doesn't function

as intended, and there

is no recourse under the

legal system, then yeah.

Why are you going into want,

you know, though, the only

people who's going going

to want passive house in

that case of the clients,

Do you know what's

ironic is we've got Scotland

and pre pretty much widespread

adoption of passive house.

Then we've got Australia

who can't even wrap their

head around a continuous

mechanical ventilation system

at a, at a slow flow rate.

Um, and we have to get a

performance solution for

that because I think that's,

that's not acceptable.

How fucking dumb are we?

Australia, uh, like

to do things their way.

And I saw this in automotive.

So when we were in

automotive, one of the

first things I got to do

was test child restraints.

That's exactly what

a 20 something year

old wants to do.

So anyway, I'm in the car

putting all these different

child restraints in different,

different forward models

to, because there was an

issue with the tether strap

that it would, in certain

locations actually end up

going between the seat,

the division of the seats.

So, you know, the seats fold

and they either split in

a 50 50 or a 30 70 split.

Depending on how they

design and depending on how

the seat was designed in

those days, a lot of the

child restraints just had a

single strap in the middle.

You put that right where the

divider is and the strap would

go down, and then the seat

wouldn't stay in position.

Obviously, in an accident,

that is not a good thing,

so we actually were working

on a pamphlet to show

parents how to install

their child restraints

correctly into cars.

Now, what had then happened

is Europe introduced the

ISO fix method and the

rest of the world went,

oh yeah, this is awesome.

Australia went,

oh, no, no, no.

You can have the ISO fix,

but you still have to

have the tether strap.

So in Australia, we have

unique child restraints

for the Australian market.

Now, what does that do?

All that does is

drive up the price.

So customers in

Australia pay more for

their child restraints.

You can't take your child

restraints anywhere else.

If you've been living in