Hi. Welcome to Karate Chop Bullying.
This is our first episode.
As the name of the show implies.
We're here to talk about a very serious problem with society
that affects many people and is often not discussed enough.
Whether you're a child in grammar school, an adult in the workforce,
or anyone just trying to live their life in peace, there are very few things
that can impact somebody so deeply and darkly as bullying.
Oftentimes, we don't feel that anybody is willing to listen
or that they care, and we have no idea how we can get help.
That is the reason for this podcast.
We want to be the bridge to help you get help and understanding.
Karate Chop Bullying is an outreach initiative of Tim Flynn's Kito karate program.
My name is Bruce Nachshon,
and I'm here because I too have been a victim of bullying.
Joining me on his own show is my co-host, Tim Flynn.
Thank you, Bruce.
Thank you for having me at my own show.
No problem.
So, Tim,
what made you want to start your karate chop bowling initiative?
Well, Bruce, when I was younger, I experienced bullying myself.
And I remember seeing a crowd action movies
when I was growing up and seeing Daniel having the same issues that I'm having.
Martial arts helped him overcome bullying, so I took lessons.
And then fast forward
in 2016, I opened up Kato Karate.
After a few years,
I started hearing stories from my students that they're being bullied.
And I hear from the parents that my child's being bullied.
What can we do?
Teaching kicks and punches is great.
But I wanted to give my parents tools to help combat this problem.
So I started doing my cri chop bullying anti-bullying
seminars and I wanted to reach more people.
So this is why I started the podcast.
Ultimately, both of us have been victims of bullying, and both of us
at the time really didn't have anywhere to turn or someone to talk to.
And we really want that not to be the case.
So here we are with Karate Chop Bully.
So today's episode, the focus is more on bullying in school.
And we're going to define bullying with our guest, who is Fiona Swanson,
who is a licensed social worker.
But first,
we were discussing earlier
a very tragic story that has recently been reported in the news.
The unfortunate suicide of Myles Fitzpatrick,
who left us at the tender age of 17.
In a nutshell, Myles.
Myles joined the Mandrill School district during the year of 2018.
2019 came out as transgender in December of 2020,
and then during that period of time, they were not going to school
because of the pandemic. It was remote.
During the course of the school year of 2021 into 2022,
it became a hybrid environment and the bullying began.
Myles was
heavily bullied.
Harassment about their gender identity.
Being picked on, being called the F-word,
which I'm not going to say here, but we all know what it is.
Being told that they would never really be a man.
This is just some of the stuff.
According to the article that I'm reading on The Daily Voice, the Somerset section.
The bullying got physical. We're talking.
He was pushed into lockers. Items were thrown at him.
Now we don't know what these items were.
Was it a rock?
Was it a pen? Who knows?
He was kicked, had his hair pulled.
This happened in hallways, the locker room, bathrooms.
It just was going on.
And some of the times it was happening.
According to the lawsuit that they filed, it was happening in front of teachers,
sometimes in front of staff members all the time without intervention.
It was so severe that this began.
Myles, dealing with severe depression and anxiety.
It led to acts of self-mutilation,
some of which happened on school grounds and some suicide attempts.
And according to this lawsuit, when he was in class, he would have things
like bloody sleeves and the staff members still turned a blind eye.
His mother requested intervention and requested help.
She made complaints to the school district, to the counselor.
Fitzpatrick himself even made reports to staff members and teachers.
But the bullying grew worse,
and nothing significant was done to address these complaints.
The bullying
got so bad that Myles was given permission
to change in the faculty lounge, restroom or the nurse's office.
But for some unknown reason, that was reneged
at some point and he was forced to change in the locker rooms
where the harassment was going on, and it just got more and more severe.
They eventually asked for either
remote schooling or home schooling, and that was denied.
And because of that, the harassment continued
and it continued up until poor Myles took his own life.
Now the school district has made a statement.
Our hearts are broken and we are grieving for Myles family.
The students who were his friends and the staff members who taught him
beyond that, it wouldn't be appropriate to comment on pending litigation.
I am heartbroken.
I am just enraged because
even though I was not transgendered,
I can see myself in Myles.
Myles is my people.
I was bullied.
The school district was well aware of it.
And not only did they not help me, they would do things to help
encourage it in subtle, weird ways.
And this is what happened to Myles.
You know, I, I really don't know what to say,
but I am enraged because it wasn't taken seriously until it was too late.
One thing about the story
that we need to make note of is we don't hear what the school
attempted to do as well besides changing bathrooms.
I don't have a lot of parents who quick come to me saying my kids
being bullied in school and doing nothing and I got to take your word for it.
But I'm careful because I'm not going to say, well, that school
ain't doing nothing to help bullying because for one, we don't hear their side.
And I'll tell you
what, Manvel High School, I'll be more than happy to hear your side.
So if you're from Manvel High School and you want to talk about this with us,
you can email us at Crotty bullying at gmail.com.
And we would love love to hear your side of this tragedy.
Yes, but I have experience a teacher turning a blind eye.
Well, I remember this third grade gym class.
I was getting picked on and the coach teacher fires fire.
It just turned away, ignored it like nothing happened.
And I'm like,
That's not fair.
You just. You're just alone.
I've experienced it,
you know, one time in front of a teacher like that.
It's going to toughen you up. Tim.
Yeah, just tough. It up.
Speaking of just covering it up, that was back in the day.
Back in my time to tough it up. Suck it up.
That's where you're told Suck it up.
Everybody gets picked on. Suck it up.
The problem is of me sucking it up, it caused.
Look, I still struggle with confidence issues.
I still have doubts.
Can I do this?
Because when I was younger, I didn't get that praise and feedback
from my teachers or even my parents because one of my parents
didn't know what was going on.
I can relate to that child as well.
And that parent, when you feel like the school is not helping, you feel alone.
Who else do you turn to?
I have a student in my martial arts program
that is identifying right now as non-binary,
who just experience the harassment,
the bullying starting, although physical.
The parents are aware of it.
I'm aware of it.
Her parent
feel like they don't have anyone to turn to because sometimes
you're so overwhelmed with all this stuff's going on
and I don't know what the school is truly doing, but whatever is going
on, it's not good enough for at least my students parents.
So what I'm doing right now with my current student is we got in touch
with a local community that understands the trans and LGBTQ community
for help to get the student around people like them to start over.
Coming this bullying in school.
No matter what your belief religion views, our political views are.
None of that matters. Does that matter? Correct.
But matters is especially for one.
This is a child.
And it's a human being. Yes, human being.
They their brains are fully developed to 24 years old.
They don't
quite understand, especially my kinds of suicide.
Sometimes people I try to commit suicide.
Back when I was a kid.
My reason for that was, is because at nighttime
I was at peace when I was sleeping.
Kids don't understand that when you go this far,
there's no I can come back from it later on.
This is final.
So I feel like this is a pretty
heavy news article to kick off our first show with, especially
when I have my own kind of going
through the start of of this story right here.
But I have hope for student.
I believe they are starting to get the help.
I can start seeing more of a upbeat and this student where
I have to tell this student to hey act like a black belt.
The point when you start telling a student to start listening to you,
they're goofing around in class, that's actually a good sign
because their confidence is starting to come back a little bit more.
But, you know, as far as this news article, you know, this kid
didn't have any of those opportunities, at least that we know of.
Yeah, well, they have a go fund me
for poor Miles family and you will find that link
in the show description if you can please give something
I think a very important thing to do in this first
episode is to actually define what is bullying and how to recognize it
and how to see if maybe you or your child or somebody you know is affected.
And to do that, we are going to bring on a professional.
Joining us now is Fiona Swanson, a clinical social worker
for over ten years who deals with adults and children
and is very familiar with bullying and I think has some experience herself.
Hello, Fiona. Hi. Glad to be here.
So tell us a little about yourself, a little about your experiences.
How did you get into social work, your specialization?
Okay, so I have been in social work for about ten years now.
I kind of always knew that I wanted to do something
having to do with helping people and ended up being social work.
I started out working in a hospital setting,
working with families, helping them get ready to discharge
or deal with sort of the stressors of being in the hospital.
And then I got my clinical licensure and started working with patients,
adults, children and
families on more of a therapeutic basis.
So working with them in therapy.
And then I switched to School of Social work.
Well, a year about a year ago, because I felt like
working so much with kids and adolescents.
A lot of this main stressors they were dealing with
had to do with school setting, and often times, most often
it had to do with bullying or peer conflicts and so I thought
it would be helpful if I could work in that setting with students.
Well, let's talk about bullying a little bit.
What exactly is it?
What's the difference between bullying versus a harassment versus, say,
just being plain rude? Sure.
So being rude is
when a person is maybe
accidentally says something unkind
or accidentally bumped into somebody you know, and doesn't apologize
or maybe says something that wasn't very considerate
and might have hurt their feelings, like, oh, that's a different haircut, you know?
So that would be being rude.
Then there's also being mean, which is a little bit
more intentional, kind of saying something to hurt somebody's feelings.
But typically that would be just maybe on a one time basis
when it moves into bullying, when it's done more intentionally.
So there's purpose and it's usually planned.
And then also when there is a little bit of a power differential.
So, for example, you know, 10 minutes before
they're let into this to the school.
So they're on the playground and every time they get dropped off,
you know, there's this group of three or four kids
who maybe are like a little bit older or bigger
or even just the fact that it's a group and that gives them more power than that.
The kid who just got dropped off.
And if they every time they see the student
say rude things to them or teased them
and that's on a consistent basis, then that would be bullying.
In your experiences as a social worker.
Do you
feel the incidents of bullying are on the rise?
That is a very good question.
I definitely think cyberbullying is on the rise.
And, you know, I, I was in school
trying to get away my age, but I graduated about 20 years ago.
So a while ago before social media and cell phones and,
you know, I think back to middle school, which was a very hard time for me.
And I would say that I was probably the target of some bullying,
definitely some transition in friends then was targeted.
And I think about how hard that was.
But yet now when you add social
media and texting group text and all of these other ways
for people to talk about you or spread rumors or record you had posted,
I think how lucky I was, how relieved I am that it wasn't that much worse yet.
It was still really hard.
So I would say that it's much more intense now.
You know, I've been working with students and youth
professionally for about ten years, but even when I was doing hair,
I worked with a lot of like teenagers and and I guess I can't say
speak to the like, statistics as far as whether or not it's increased.
They know it's kind of always been bad
and it depends on where you go to school and what policies and that type of thing.
But online certainly takes the in-person
had to put in physical effort to do it
or at the very least pick up a phone and crank call somebody versus now
you can just simply find their IM, find their Instagram and just go at it.
Elise When we were a kids and I'm roughly the same age as you, Fiona,
when we were kids at Elise, when we leave school,
the bullying goes away, It stops for a bit.
We got a break, but these days, you know, kids can't escape it.
It's like you said, cyber.
Cyber bullying is really tough to do for a lot of kids.
And kids want to be connected with social media as well,
play their games and so forth.
So I do think that for myself,
I guess I was a little bit more luckier when I was getting it,
because when I left school, it stopped for, you know, a day.
Considering how easy it's become to just go
online and rail at somebody, it's very easy to bully someone.
What can parents do to be more cognizant
that their particular child might be getting bullied?
That is the one thing when I I'm grateful for my professional experience
because I see meaning with kids
and then especially like adolescents and teenagers.
One on one, I hear what's happening and then when I talk with the parents,
sometimes they have no idea the extent
or they think they think all their friends are good kids.
They just they just do this.
Sometimes they have no idea what's happening or how cruel it is.
Boys will be boys.
Yes, exactly. Right.
Or you know how girls are, you know, that kind of thing.
Or it.
So they sometimes even encourage that their child to stay friends with this
group.
Like, let's say it's a small town and they grew up being friends, but yet,
you know, that group
is kind of torturing their child, but they're not believing it.
So I think that it is really important
for parents to watch for changes
in behavior or personality with their child.
For example, let's see, their child
usually loves going to their like after school program,
you know, whatever that that after school care is.
And they're always happy to go.
And then all of a sudden they say, Oh, can you just pick me up?
Can you pick me up early?
I don't want to stay or they are, you know, going to the nursing nurse
saying, I have a headache or I'm sick, I need to go home,
or they are not wanting to go to school.
Those are clear signs that something is going on.
I encourage parents wholeheartedly to not just dismiss
it as kids being lazy or just being teenagers.
You know, make sure to to find out.
Okay, so who's spending your time with And also encouraging parents to
look at their children's phones, look at look at their online activity,
You know, make it like normalize that from as soon as they're old enough
to be online, say, okay, you got to show me what you've been doing.
I show me an account so that as they get older,
they realize, yep, that's just a normal thing.
My mom or my dad's just protecting me.
I got to show them who I'm talking to.
So just kind of always recognizing any any signs that.
That your child is avoiding places they used to go or isolate anymore.
So, Fiona, if I have a child, I suspect bullying.
You know, some kids don't want to admit that they're being bullied,
even though you can see it as like a good question to ask your child
that would get you to open up to them.
So going back to my childhood, Hey, Johnny, are you being bullied today?
Do you take them all?
Take a private setting, have some dinner.
What's a good technique to get them to open up to you to trust you?
Because a lot of it kids are afraid that, Oh, no,
they're going to call that kid's parents and I'm really going to get it right.
Is that a good question
or tactic we can get our kids to open up to come clean about the bullying?
Yeah. Yeah.
Very good question, because you're absolutely right.
Surprisingly, it's a child's sort of instinct to shut down
and just kind of say, no, everything's fine.
So I think that it's helpful
to really try to connect with your child.
And so, like you said, maybe take him out to eat or just spend
some one on one time with them so that they know that you're there,
you know, and even just saying, hey, I'm noticing something,
noticing a change in your you know, when I was a kid,
sometimes people said mean things to me and I didn't know how to respond.
Does that ever happen to you?
And honestly, as a parent, so this is my experience as a parent.
I found it helpful to sometimes, you know, when I go
pick up my kid from after school care, try to try to sort of get there and watch
a little bit to see what I can see before coming to get them.
And so I can observe what's going on because I actually found out
one time doing that of a little bit of that, got a little bit
of intimidation from another student to my son that he hadn't told me about.
And I saw it and then I was able to ask him about it and remind him like,
we're going to work through this together.
I'm not going to do anything that makes you uncomfortable or,
you know, we're going to
figure out how you can be safe and how you can stand up for yourself.
So really not trying to rush it, trying to trying to help them feel calm and safe
and then have them participate in coming up with a plan for next step.
That's a very good point.
So maybe they'll open up to me the first time.
But second time.
Third time as parents, just be patient, work with their child.
And like you said,
I might go down to school and monitor them for a bit,
but just sit back and kind of watch.
But then again, how do you go back and hire a kid?
Like like I saw you.
I saw this happen. I don't want my kid to lose.
Trust me that I'm spying on them, though, either.
Sometimes it can be, though, if you want your kid to break that trust, too.
Yeah, well, and.
And you know, the example I gave, it was more just kind of me
pulling up and then seeing them.
I didn't see for more than a minute or two.
Yeah, I guess. Yeah.
I'm just saying, if your kid's used to picking you up, if I were to go
pick up my kid, which I don't ever do, and then I go to school one day
to kind of sit back and watch, then my dad goes, Are you spying on me?
Yeah. You know, I don't want to break that trust either.
Yeah. Right.
Yeah.
I don't want to
give the message that it's okay to go and watch your kids at recess necessarily,
because I don't know that that's allowed, but more
just kind of taking every opportunity you can
to observe in the moment naturally.
And also if you have concerns your their teacher is there,
you know, email them, call them, say, hey, this is what I'm noticing,
what are you seeing?
Because either the teacher or the school, a social worker or a counselor.
Well, or should take that seriously and investigate.
Would there be any value in as a parent saying to your child,
I just want you to know that when I was your age, I was bullied.
I went through something similar.
If something's going on, I don't want you to be afraid that I won't understand
or I won't believe you because I've been through it.
I do understand.
I do believe you.
Absolutely.
I think I think that that would be absolutely helpful.
You know, and because when I was when I was a kid, sort of,
you know, my mom's advice was, well, just ignore it.
Just ignore it.
And, you know, really, that doesn't work.
You know, she was doing the best she could.
Just smile. They'll get bored. Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, just yeah, just pretend you don't hear it.
But that that can often.
I mean, I've rarely seen that work.
It's often sort of like ammunition.
So I guess for it to continue.
If the parent manages to get
this conversation going, they're beginning to talk to the child.
What advice can the parent give the child to help that child?
Who is being bullied?
I think really need to remember that
our first goal is to listen
to help our child feel heard,
because sometimes we go quick into advice mode and our kids
shut down or they're like, Well, no, that's not going to work, you know?
So we want we want to make sure we listen, ask them
to explain what happens and like how it makes them feel.
And then so problems, problem.
Okay.
So what do you think might help or what would you like to do?
You know, if you had a superpower to fix this, what would happen?
So getting them involved in the conversation, then
some tips that I often recommend and do with my own kids.
As I say, okay, let's practice how we could respond.
How can we make a joke about something?
You know, can we sort of laugh it off of someone?
We need comment.
Is this something where we need to practice
assertively to say, No, I don't like that stuff
because sometimes our kids, I don't think know that they need
to directly say no stuff because sometimes I think that initial instinct
is to just sort of like giggle and laugh along with.
Then the bully can sort of say, well, they never said they didn't like it,
or it was just a joke.
So listening and involving them in the plan,
practicing role playing, how they're going to respond,
and then also making a plan for who they can connect with.
So as a parent, after you do these things, I'm going to ask our girls.
And then who do you want us to talk to?
Will it be your teacher or your counselor?
What other adult at school can help us with that
so that they can help you when you're in school.
So that brings me to our next question,
which is in some cases, in quite a few cases, actually,
the school is not just not helpful, they're almost to some degree complicit
in their lack of ability to want to deal with the situation.
What did face what services
are there for parents who try to approach the school
and the school makes excuses, doesn't help.
Just stand by and watch because it's not their problem,
You know?
And first of all, I, I do want to say that my experience with schools
is luckily it's been positive.
I have seen documentaries and I have heard about,
you know, some schools that clearly are taking it seriously.
And so, yes, I'm going to give you some resources for that.
But I also want to say that I have seen and I work in some schools
that will be proactive and they recognize that there are laws in place.
I mean, you look up our Minnesota statute and there is anti-bullying
laws and safe and supportive schools acts that
that mandate certain policies schools have to follow.
So I think for the parents,
there's two really good resources on line.
And one is stop bullying that does
that's a federal kind of website.
And research center with lots of really good information about how to talk
to your child, how to connect with the school,
what are the next steps if you're not getting anywhere?
Also, pacer p a, c, r.
They have a National Bullying Prevention center and their website is fantastic.
They they have letters sort of written out so that you can start
to document reaching out to the school and telling them exactly what's happening.
And then to start to build a legal case.
If the school is not responding to make action happen,
I would really encourage people to look at those resources.
And there are more, but those are kind of like the two that seem pretty good to me,
you know, and
just and just don't don't snap.
Don't stop advocating because because you have to for your child.
You know.
So another question.
If your child is being bullied and you are aware
of the other child's parents, as a parent, should you approach them?
Should you try to have a dialog with the other child's parent?
Or is that just asking for issues?
I think I feel like
I don't have a good evidence based answer.
I'm guessing there's tons of research out there
that would help us know which way to go.
I know that in some experiences the families I've worked with,
the parents have connected with the other parents, particularly
if it's like a smaller town, and that that has been helpful to an extent.
Yeah, I think more on a case by case basis.
We try and say because if a parent came to me and said My kid's bullying our kid,
I'll probably be offended by it.
They'll do, you know, you know, some parents will get offended.
Like what?
You're calling my kid a bully. Now,
you could start a whole nother problem, too, by going to the parents as well.
So small towns may be better.
They tend to know each other, too.
But I understand where you're going with that.
I don't think a lot of evidence out there to really get a clear answer
on that question.
And it's probably what happened.
Now, say little Johnny
keeps hitting my son every day at school, keeps punching him.
That may be easy to come up to say, Hey, your son keeps punching my kid
in the lunch line.
If it's more extreme bullying, like the new story that that we talked
about today,
that might be hard to give up to a kid's parents
to try to give them that information.
So I think you're right. The case by case.
I think you're exactly right on that. Yes, absolutely.
I think because sometimes and often children
who bully are experiencing stressors at home themselves.
Maybe they are being bullied
or experiencing some emotional, verbal or physical abuse at home.
And so their parent may not be the most healthy, if you know what I mean.
It makes so. Yes.
How trying is it on you when you have a child who is so obviously
in distress?
You mean that like when I'm working with a child who's in distress?
Yeah.
When there's a heavy situation where I assume
that in some situations there's only a limited amount that you can do to help.
Sometimes that situation doesn't get better.
How does that weigh on you?
Um. You know,
I feel as though I,
I do feel like I've been able
to help at least someone when I was working,
like in a outpatient clinic when kids for therapy,
we would talk through strategies, but I didn't see them as often.
So, you know, and then we would maybe they would not end up coming.
So I don't know that I ever worked with somebody
where I it clearly was like out of hand.
And they I couldn't we couldn't get through it.
But I don't know everything as far as like
as far as how things went on a day to day.
I just know when I was seeing them in the school,
I feel grateful that the schools that I'm working at right
now, that there's good people that take it seriously
and will work to change them as some things around change make it
so they're not able to be here one on one with each other.
And they were able to meet with that and help build them up.
I think that's one thing I want to make sure to say.
As parents, as you know,
anybody who works at a school, as anybody who works with children,
you can build them up whenever you see them.
Point out what's great about them, point out how just awesome of a kid
they are playing out that they are inherently worthwhile.
Right?
Because we want that's what we want them to know that no matter what's happening,
how someone else is treating us isn't about us, it's about them.
And we are so worthwhile.
We are so kind, we are so friendly, and we can still make our own friends.
You know, the more social connections a child and an adult
has, the less vulnerable they are to blame
and the less vulnerable they are to a lot of other health risks.
I totally agree.
Because as a parent, where the first ones I can build up my kids confidence first.
Yeah, I see a lot of parents at sports.
Some are even my school.
A kid will break a board or have a huge achievement in class.
You turn around, look at the parent.
They're sitting on their phone,
not paying attention to it and the kid's confidence just drops.
The parent missed it.
And that's kind of awesome.
Paris, too, because as a parents, we live such a busy life
now, that parent to be working on their phone.
I don't know the whole story,
but as parents, if we're taking our kid to an activity,
we should be engaged with that activity as well, because that activity
is there not just for them to become a professional player some day.
Their activity main goal is to build our confidence up
and if we can't give them that instant praise,
that kid, that should be like, Well, why should I try you more?
No one cares.
And they get all these negative thoughts going through their head as well as
parents were the first ones to work on our kids US confidence.
Even if we can't fix what's going on for them at school, we can.
We can focus on the positive with them and we can build that.
We can do those positive affirmations, we can do that practice for you.
How are you going to respond when I say that?
He let's practice the joke.
So you got a joke to me to tell to sort of like break the ice.
I mean, we can be working on all those things.
You know, we can't always fix what's on the outside world.
As we're coming to a close.
Is there any final thoughts that you would like
to relay out to the audience just in general about bullying?
Any particular bit of advice that hasn't been covered by any of our questions?
I would say encouraging kids
to also speak up when they see others being bullied
because that helps contribute to a safe environment at their school
and that helps contribute to less likelihood they'll be bullied.
And so I think encouraging kids
to say something or reach out to a child if they see that
they don't have anybody to sit with, encouraging our kids to
build relationships and friendships, even if they're not the best of friends,
like just encouraging your kids to be involved in things
because those social connections are going to protect them.
You know, And also doing that as parents, you know, because they see what we model.
So you think
I think it's so helpful to look at those proactive preventative strategies
in addition to responding, if it's happening again.
Thank you so much for joining us and we really appreciate you coming on
and defining bullying for us.
Yes. Thanks, Fiona. Absolutely.
Thank you. It's my pleasure.
You know, Tim, I think Fiona was very helpful.
I think there was a lot of good information.
I feel that she gave us a lot of tools on what we can do to help our child
if they're being bullied.
And speaking of tools, we want to give you a couple of resources right now.
First off, because we started the show talking about somebody who tragically
took their own life, If you out there are having any suicidal thoughts,
we implore you to take a moment to stop.
And here's the number to the national Suicide hotline.
Before you do anything rash, please dial nine, eight, eight and talk to somebody.
There is somebody there to talk to.
Now, whether it is yourself,
your child or somebody you know who has experienced bullying,
we want to give you two resources right now.
There is first stop bullying dot gov, which is the United State
government's anti-bullying resource website.
And there is also Pacer's National Bullying Prevention Center,
and you can find them online at PACER
dot org slash bullying
if you are a member of the
LGBTQIA to s plus community and you need help
or you need someone to talk to, you can reach out to the Trevor Project.
You can find them online at the Trevor Project dot org
or you can call them at 18664887386.
You can also text them at 678678.
I'm Tim Flynn for Bruce and thank you for listening
and we will continue this conversation next week.