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Welcome to the Atlanta Tennis Podcast.

Every episode is titled,

It Starts with Tennis and Goes From There.

We talk with coaches, club managers,

industry business professionals,

technology experts, and anyone else we find interesting.

We wanna have a conversation as long as it starts with tennis.

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Hey, hey, this is Shaun with the Atlanta Tennis Podcast,

powered by GoTennis.

Check out our calendar of Metro Atlanta Tennis events

at LetsGoTennis.com

and be on the lookout for our ad in net news

about the GoTennis Fall Festival on November 9th

at James Creek Tennis Center.

It's gonna be awesome.

And now let's get into our recent conversation

with Todd Larkham.

Todd is a world-class coach who worked

with Nick Kyrgios back in the day.

Todd is working with a platform called CoachLife.com,

which is offering progressive training and insights

from expert coaches.

If you're interested, you can get 5% off your first year

subscription if you use our affiliate link

in the show notes.

Have a listen and let us know what you think.

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Who are you and why do we care?

- Yeah, thanks, Shaun.

Thanks for having me on your show.

Real pleasure to be here.

My name's Todd Larkham.

I'm a tennis coach in Canberra, Australia.

So, capital of Australia, small city though.

But I worked for tennis Australia as an elite

junior development coach for 15 years.

I coached a whole bunch of players during that period.

Probably the most famous is Nick Kyrgios.

So I coached him from age 10 to 17.

So I spent solid seven years with him.

And yeah, that's what I do.

I played on tour for 10 years from age 20 to 30

before that, played in all the majors.

But mainly on the challenger level was ranked between

130 and 200 most of my career.

But yeah, the last 20 years,

still, still coaching elite junior players

and really, probably specialized in that area.

So my parents were both tennis coaches.

So, you know, spent my whole life eating.

- That's just not fair.

- That's my, spent my whole life in tennis really.

So yeah, it's been my life.

I love the sport and it's great to talk tennis.

I love talking tennis with like mine and people

and just great to be here on your show talking tennis.

- Yeah, we appreciate the time.

And before we dive into talking about Nick

and all that, I'm curious.

I don't know that I've had a conversation with anybody

who has been in that 100 to 200 range

for that amount of time.

What is that even like?

I mean, it's hard to pay your bills

when you're 160 in the world.

What does that look like for you?

What did that look like for you?

- Yeah, it really is tough.

I mean, it was a great life.

I mean, I absolutely love playing tennis and competing

and being a professional tennis player.

But it is tough.

I mean, the income you're earning is really,

you're really just breaking even most years.

So you're trying to get creative find ways to make money.

I mean, I played German team tennis every year.

You might pick up $20,000, $30,000 for six weeks' work there.

That helps you keep you going.

But really, you're living your life on the challenger tour,

which is the second retour as we know in professional tennis.

You're playing in the grandstand, qualifying events.

They're always really key for those kind of players

because if you can get through,

you maybe get to the first round of a grandstand

or the second round, you might pick up a decent paycheck.

And that can keep you going for the year.

But I suppose you're following your dream.

And that dream is to be top 100 player.

And that's what we're all striving for.

That's where the big bucks are.

I play on the main tour, we can week out.

So I didn't, I wasn't able to achieve that.

But I was not a regret so happy that I was able to go out there

and play on professional tennis,

which was always my dream growing up.

And so I'm pretty much even lucky to play in the majors

against some great players.

So there's an incredible part of my life.

Yeah, I was looking at the schedule,

we were playing against Huitt and Sanprous and Agassi.

And I mean, it's got to be such a cool experience.

Bobby talks, he's told a story or two of somebody else

telling the story of seeing the ball coming from someone like that.

It isn't just me and Bobby as, I mean, we're good players.

But as coaches, hitting the ball,

that's just different from a ball, trying to return Pete's serve.

I mean, it's just, it's got to be a different call.

Yeah, that's right.

Yeah, when I played Sanprous, I played him on Santa Court at the US Open.

It was the first ever night match to play in 1997.

It was the first of a night match on that court.

The opening of Arthur A. Stadium that year.

So Whitney Houston actually sung a song before we walked out.

She was there on site.

She sang one moment in time before we walked out on court.

So just an incredible experience.

But Pete was always one of my idols.

He played all for him a year or one like Seven Wimbledons.

I watched him so much.

But yeah, I was worried about his serve.

And the first point served 130 miles an hour,

eight down the tee.

And I was like, wow, here's the reality of what this match is going

to be like.

I managed to get about seven week games, but I didn't break him.

And that was something I never, never faced, never experienced.

It was so hard, so hard to get in the rallies against him.

Keep it on a neutral setting.

His second serve was so good as well.

His second serve was one of the best ever.

So hard, flat, powerful, like facing a first serve for me.

Two first serves every point.

So they're one of the greatest serves of all time.

And as a coach, I've really tried to use his serve as a real model.

You know, his technique is such a perfect technique.

So that's how I teach my players.

Kira was a similar Serena Williams-Body-Surf

similar technical aspects to his serve.

But he was a real model early 2000s.

90s is the greatest serve of all time, I think.

I couldn't agree more.

And I would see that serve myself.

I'd be like, all right, thanks.

I'm out of here.

I'm going to go be a coach because it's just not something

I'm going to be able to handle.

So what takes you from the tour to coaching?

Because I assume during that time, it's just a matter of all right.

Then you decide, what do I do next, right?

Then you jump into, did you go straight into coaching?

Yeah, I went straight from the tour to coaching.

Literally, my parents were still running tennis facility.

So it was an easy transition for me.

And it was a tough tour and back into their facility.

Been a couple of years.

And then a job came up with a tennis

Australia in my town in Canberra.

And it was a great opportunity to work for the federation.

And they provided such a great environment here in Canberra,

an opportunity just to work with four or five young players,

the best players we had in this city.

And just to have the time that you need in the week

to really spend it just with those players,

travel everywhere.

Craig Tyley, his Australian Open Tournament director,

started these academies back in 2006 in Australia.

Really transformed player development in Australia.

And we became really successful from that period on.

We'd gone through a really poor period of developing players.

But when we started these academies,

it took a few years, but we really started

to see some success.

And players like Ashbody, Nick Curio,

Salik's Dean, and all the players we have in the top 100 now,

all came through these national academies in Australia.

So it was great to be part of that.

Yeah, it was a great school and education for me as well.

It's become a late high performance coach.

Yeah, it's got to be, I would say, just as rewarding.

But similarly rewarding to see someone

that you can mentor and send them on to do

tour level things.

I mean, most coaches don't get to do that.

Most coaches, I work solely with beginners and mostly eight

year olds.

So if they end up on tour, it's my fault

for making them helping them love the sport.

But it wasn't me getting on the tour.

It's just a different coaching world and even Bobby's

situation is the same thing.

And so you're talking to us today because you've got a connection

with Nick.

You said you worked with him specifically.

And you've got some content on what is called coachlife.com.

Can you tell us about that?

Yeah, really excited about this way of sight.

I think it's really unique because it's

bringing together 20 coaches from around the world.

And 20 really successful coaches who have produced players

that have gone on to be top 20 Grand Slam champion players.

So some of the coaches--

American coaches--

Sly Black, who coach Coco Goughlin Sline Stevens

through their junior years.

Michael Joyce, who worked with Sharif Hover, of course,

on tour, but also Peggillar for several years.

I'm Alfred, who obviously developed Taylor all through his

juniors, Diego Mayano, who worked the USDA for many years.

Coach Tommy Paul, Ryle of Helke, Francis Tiafo.

We've also got Schwann Tech's coach.

Spent six years with her through her Tina Edge years.

It was incredibly successful.

Another coach from Australia, Gary Stickler, who

coach Pat Rafter, Jason Kubla, John Milman, really

successful experienced, highly respected coach in Australia.

So what it is is over 600 videos on this website.

It's basically these 20 coaches giving all the information

they have.

What strategy is Ryle's techniques they

use to develop skills and develop game style technique,

footwork, mental strategies, et cetera, et cetera.

So as you know, junior coaching is different to tour coaching.

I mean, we are developing the basics and the fundamentals.

I'm taking kids on who are 11 years old and going,

this is how you hit a kick serve and that have no idea how

to hit a kick serve.

So how to hit a volley or a forehand or whatever.

Try to take them from junior players into elite

some of the world's best junior players.

So it's really developing those fundamental skills.

I think there's something that for everyone out there,

recreational players, parents, coaches,

talk a lot about what parents can do to help their kids develop.

So I think there's something for everyone on there.

We're really excited about the website.

I think it's going to be really popular.

No one's really ever done it before.

It's a huge effort to travel around the world

and get all these coaches and film them all

and get their information.

So yeah, for the cost of a couple of private lessons,

like I said, there's over 500 videos on there.

So a huge amount of information for any aspiring

tennis player.

OK, so before I ask you to give away all the stuff

for free here, which give us all the tips and everything,

I'm curious.

So as a coach of a guy like Kirios and maybe in that same generation,

that those Australian players, we knew a few.

Bobby and I follow the tour.

We've got some friends that came off the tour that we all know.

And for some reason, there was always

the Aussie that could volley.

And you talk about Pat Rafter.

That was always my guy in the '90s,

because I had an initial experience with Andre Agassi.

And I didn't like him at the time.

I was mad at him.

So I was always cheering for Rafter against Agassi

as the American kid.

And that was always weird.

But there was always that kick serve.

There was always that volley.

Even the Aussies, we know here, Bobby,

we talk about the guys that are coaches even now.

They just seem to have volleys.

What is it about even a guy like Nick,

that you look at him and he just doesn't even seem to try it

at times, but he can just hit a ball from anywhere to anywhere.

Is that Aussie blood?

Is he just born like that?

Or is that just magic coaching?

Or is it a combination?

Yeah, I think it's coaching.

It's really interesting.

I thought you knew you were the coach.

That's right.

It's interesting looking around different nations

and different nations do things differently and better.

But yeah, I think it's been passed down through the generations,

to be honest.

I mean, the 60s era where we had so many great players

and so much chance was played on grass.

We had so many grass courts in Australia.

And you have to volley on grass on real grass.

You have to come in.

You can't volley.

Well, certainly, maybe you get away with a little bit more now,

but back then you have to come.

You have to be able to volley.

And the coaches from that era, I suppose,

we had some great coaches like Harry Hopman, Ray Ruffles,

Bob Carmichael, these guys are all older than now.

But I really think they passed that down

to the generation of coaches my era.

I think it's just continued on.

It's something you've got to work on.

Surfaces help a little bit.

We do still play some junior tennis here on natural grass.

We've made a point of keep doing that.

Obviously, the voice is done all right at Wimbledon.

But I think it's a combination of coaching

and the surfaces we play on.

And just making an effort to really teach your players

how to volley.

I think it's spent so much time on surf,

form, and backhand movement.

I know a lot of matches and tennis played like that,

but also look at the trends of the game.

Guides are coming to the net a lot throughout a match.

So if you can volley, I think it's really important.

And I think it comes down to coaching

and dedicating the time to really get out there

and work on volley.

Sometimes it's going to be harder to work on volley

with junior players because they're not very good at it.

Difficult to set up fun drills, et cetera.

But you've got to find a way, I think, to do it.

Yeah, we agree.

Bobby-- excuse me, Bobby, I saw a meme the other day

of where they put the picture of the thing.

And they say, oh, here's me working on my surf, 10%,

working on my forehand, 90%, and working on my back.

And it was volley.

It was like, volley.

It's what are volleys?

Like, do you agree?

We probably as Americans, big surf, big forehand.

Probably don't put enough time into our volleys.

Who are you talking to, Sean?

Talking to you, Bobby, because we're the Americans.

We got to-- I'm curious, because they're so--

I don't know what it is.

Like you said, it's the coaching in Australia

is different here.

And so they end up with a Nick Curio's type,

and we end up with the same query.

Is that an American person?

I think you're spot on.

I mean, we're known for--

I'll go a little higher than 10%.

Obviously, I was the big San Persona,

and I always go like, he didn't get enough credit

because the great shot was to serve.

And people like, well, oh, well, he's got a great serve.

Oh, yeah.

But he worked at it.

I mean, you said, technically, as far as if you're

going to teach his serve, and the athleticism combined,

probably prior to Nick, the most athletic guy

that played on tour in--

I would say my lifetime just up until the last round of guys,

the better Nadal.

I think you know that.

I think you could see them all in different places.

But before that, San Persona was always the guy to me

that stuck out that you could see in a different arena

if he had gone a different way.

So, yes, I'm a big believer in the American we spend a lot.

And Nick-- I think that's again, coaching,

because that was Nick.

Nick was big foreign.

He believed you need to have two shots.

And he wouldn't even teach a return of serve right away,

because he wanted you to get your forehand down first.

And then, as the game exploded,

the speed got bigger that he would start

to change his philosophy a little bit,

where you're going to have to adapt.

But, yeah, I don't think that's a unfair statement.

That's what the majority of the time.

And then, when you have success,

and you try to introduce the condent and a grip,

after the fact where you're going to have some failure,

that's the tough thing, too.

Now, I'm going to go backwards.

Yeah, you're going to go backwards a lot.

Yeah, exactly.

So, Todd, talk to us about that Nick Kerio's coaching experience,

because that's-- I would guess what a lot of people

would be interested in.

You look at a guy like Demonar, and he's the guy that's just--

he's going to make a lot of balls, and every coach can go,

OK, yeah, that's exactly how you'd want a guy

to structure a game around the court.

But Nick came up--

I hear rumor he wasn't the fittest kid when he started,

and how did that develop?

Can you catch us up on all that?

Because that's got to be an interesting story.

Yeah, a really interesting story.

Nick, at 10 when I started with him, quite unathletic,

he had some characteristic of athleticism,

great hand-dollar coordination, great ballstruck,

but very slow around the court.

And so it kind of had to develop his game style around that

a little bit around his personality,

but also around his athleticism.

I mean, his defense was almost nonexistent, right?

So he really had to play a super aggressive game.

He really tried to make the court smaller,

stay up on the baseline.

I talk about serving forehand, but that was my philosophy as well.

You need to have a great serve and a great forehand.

And we really worked hard on that.

And really hard on trying to dictate the point

at all costs for him.

That's really interesting because how do I have to

have a player who's quicker than I probably wouldn't have

developed that way he may not have been as good.

So it's interesting that Nick couldn't really move much.

Therefore, he was a hell of a competitor,

and he wanted to win.

So you know, he really tried to find a way,

how could he win with the athleticism

and the attributes that he had?

So playing really aggressive, getting that first strike

in serving big, taking the ball early,

that was the way that we developed.

And that's the way it kind of evolved.

You know, when he got older, 17, 18,

that's where he really started to develop his athleticism,

his movement, got in the gym more,

and got a full-time physical trainer,

and really put a huge amount of effort into his diet,

et cetera, in that period, which was really huge for him.

But certainly in junior's, really interesting

that as a coach, you really got to look at the two things

you look at at the personality of the kid you're coaching

and their physical attributes.

And you try to build a game style around that.

And you know, Nick always really wanted to play really aggressively,

but something he's taken through it all through pro tennis.

Whenever he gets an opportunity in a match,

to break point or a big point, is always like,

I want to take control of the point.

You rarely see Nick go defensive or not take an opportunity.

You'll always go for that big shot, the drop shot,

the big winner, the big serve, the big second serve,

the serve volley.

You always try to take the calculated risk

and be the one who controls the point in those big moments.

And something, it's a message that Michael just told me

and I always pushed to him,

but something naturally that he always wanted to do,

fit around his personality, his game style, et cetera.

So it's really interesting that that's the kind of way it evolved.

And yeah, you've got to coach the individual as a coach.

You can't coach everyone the same and have to work hard with Nick

with his personality.

I'm sure.

It makes me think of a James Blake tip.

I don't know why it was him specifically that came to mind,

but his tip was for coaches and he said,

you've got to coach to the player.

You can't just say, well, I'm a coach and this is the way I do it.

You've got to find what that player is capable of

and speak to them where they are and work with what they are

rather than taking somebody and try to jam them into some coaching mold

because that's all you do.

And I think that speaks to the coaching ability of somebody like you

that says, okay, you saw what was there.

And I don't know, like a sculptor is a coach of self-perceived.

There's this brilliance underneath here

that you see it at 10 or was it just the kind of thing

that he was one of the 10-year-olds that stuck it out and became good?

Yeah, like it's hard at 10.

I had a bunch of about seven players and I really wasn't sure

who's going to make it out of that 10-year.

You have no idea.

But you are like a sculptor or like you're building a house.

You've got a long period of time and you're really trying to plan it out well

and look at that individual player and think,

how is that playing in a play in several years' time

and what are their strengths and their attributes

and how do you build that?

Nick really was such a great competitor from a young age.

And I remember when I first started coaching,

I was looking for the athlete and it was all about identifying the athlete,

who's the greatest athlete.

And he kind of changed my perception on that.

And now I'm really looking for the competitor.

I do feel it's the most important aspect of tennis.

And it determines how far you're going to go.

The scoring system in tennis is tough.

Every match you play is critical points.

If you can't compose yourself, if you can't believe in yourself,

and execute your shots under pressure at any level,

and really step up and play well when it matters in tennis,

you're not going anywhere and it doesn't matter how good an athlete you are.

So it's such a big part of the game.

And he had that just that raw competitiveness

where he's just so desperate to win every match you played

and just the ability to find a way.

I didn't teach him that.

But that's what I'm looking for in a player

because I feel like it can teach most other things.

Technique movement, footwork, tactics, game style

was very, very difficult to teach those mental skills.

And you can try a lot, but you have to have a ball in competitor.

Someone really wants to compete.

So Bobby's going to jump in, I know,

because I can see his brain running because he and I talk a lot.

There are two things you can't teach, which is genetics

and that competitive nature.

So Bobby, I know you're going to want to say,

"Hey Todd, give me everything you got on finding that tips."

Bobby's got the same issue.

Is that okay?

Are the genetics either or aren't there?

How do you find that kid that just hates to lose, right, Bobby?

Well, and I, to catch on laughing, I'm like,

"Well, I really have nothing to say,"

because Todd pretty much said everything that I believe.

Like I said, it gets to, unfortunately, and you hate to,

I'm working with a good kid, a kid, very disciplined,

little Davis, who is very disciplined,

got the maturity at a very young age.

As you said, he's probably going to be five foot three.

And he's a nice kid.

Now he does like to show off a little bit, which is good.

He plays to the crowd.

So it might be, it's a different way to get there.

But just from what Todd said,

I would have bet Nick was the superstar athlete from day one,

who evolved into, you know, the pain points.

But yeah, I completely agree on it.

And this is what Volatario said.

And I always tell the Venus, will you,

I mean, the Richard William story about Serena,

when they did the 60 minutes,

and Venus was coming up and starting to have some success.

And Richard just laughed and said,

"Yeah, but wait till you see the younger one.

She's just as good.

Venus is nice.

Serena is as mean as snake.

She don't like to lose."

And, you know, there's some, and the doll, you know,

frankly, one of the greatest competitors

that I've ever seen.

And I don't even point to the wimble,

that he won the classic wimble,

then that we talked about.

I've looked at the year before,

when Petra was serving for the match at five, two.

And I swore at that point,

if the doll would have broke him,

he was winning that match,

because he just didn't know,

it wouldn't accept losing.

So it's good to hear that, you know,

it's sad to say, because it is tough.

Nurture versus nature.

What do you do when you're dealing with that?

Or I guess, Todd, what do we do?

How do we cultivate it when we see it?

And keep the person sane, you know,

but you gotta keep feeding the meat to the lion.

We want it alpha.

- Yeah, that's right.

I couldn't agree more.

Yeah, I suppose it's when I see that rule,

competitive, it's about trying to direct it

and I suppose contain it a little bit,

in the next case, I think contain it a little bit

and just try to direct him in the right direction

from a competitive point of view,

because sometimes he went over the top

and, you know, those highly competitive kids

can really get so emotional.

So I suppose it's about trying to help him understand

about where that line is,

and how does he control his emotions

to a certain point without losing his raw competitiveness?

You don't want to make him, you know, a guy like Nick,

he's always competed on that red line a little bit

right on the edge of that red line,

whereas, you know, a guy like Better or San Frist,

they appear to be so calm and cool

and that's how they compete their best.

But Nick always need to be that little bit pumped up,

little bit fired up and always walking that edge

a little bit, and that's where he had to be.

I suppose to play his better tennis,

that's where he has to be.

But I suppose as a coach,

just really trying to just make him understand that

and just running in a little bit and just keeping him,

keeping him just understanding that he needs to calm,

so calm a little bit on court and compose himself,

but without losing that real fire.

And like I said, with Serene,

you see that with her as well,

that fire and that passion,

and you don't want to lose that,

that's what I wanted in,

that's what I'm really trying to identify in kids,

is that competitiveness and that fire and that motivation,

that passion for the sport and the passion to win.

That's what you want.

They can take you a long way, a really long way,

and tennis I think can take you all the way.

- I completely agree with that.

Let me ask you, I'm guessing here.

Pretty high IQ intellectually, Nick?

- Yeah, absolutely.

Incredibly high IQ for tennis tactically.

Incredible tennis tactic.

I'll tell you a little story when he's about 14.

I was gonna play a player in the file of a national's instructor,

this kid had a real bad backhand,

and I said to him, okay,

how do you rather me telling the kids everything?

I really like to ask him,

how tactically are you gonna beat this kid?

He said, okay Todd, the first quarter,

I'm gonna serve him wide a lot.

I'm gonna open up and expose that backhand,

first shot into his backhand,

getting really defending out of that corner.

You know, when in the rally,

I'm gonna really stop him running around

and he's backhand dominating his forehand,

so I'm gonna take my backhand down a line early in the rally,

get him out in that corner,

so I can open up his backhand.

On the second quarter,

I'm gonna hit kick serves to his backhand

to expose that weakness.

So, and I just said that and went, wow,

like that, yeah, you got it, mate.

That's what I was gonna say.

You got it.

So such a great tactical IQ from a very young age.

So it's really interesting and still does.

And he says he doesn't need a coach,

and sometimes he disagrees.

Some coaching would be help, but tactically,

he is very, very switched on.

And yeah, maybe something that people don't see,

but behind the scenes, he is watching tennis

and he is analyzing players.

And you can ask him how to beat Federer and Jockovich Nadal,

and he will reel it off to his straightaway.

He knows exactly what their strengths and weaknesses are

and how he might be able to expose that.

The very high IQ from a tennis point of view,

from a very young age, which is really interesting.

- Well, I think that leads to the volatility.

I always last 'cause obviously Mac and Rowe,

off the charts, very intelligent.

Chris Piaver was the opposite,

and she would ultimately come out and say,

well, I wasn't real smart.

I did it this certain way a lot of times,

but you know, and I think that's the place to the volatility.

And I look at, and I'd be curious, your thought on this,

I used to be a big proponent of kids getting exposure

to a lot of sports.

You know, this way they learn the competitiveness.

My philosophy there is changing a little bit

just because of the level that we're seeing professionally,

even in D1 tennis.

If you're going to get to those levels,

you gotta be pretty set structurally at a pretty young age.

And then hopefully a coach can nurture and develop tactics.

And then as we all said, the wild card genetic kicks in

in our favor.

But you know, that's the hard part.

I look at it and I use myself and not that I was,

you know, gonna go to either that's funny, the level.

I played baseball from the time I could walk.

And I was an undersized pitcher,

but as a pitcher, I was volatile.

Tennis, I kind of loved the game.

That my coaches would look at me and say,

God, if his tennis game ever develops to his athleticism,

we got something.

But I did, that was then what I enjoyed about tennis.

I, you know, I'm 58, I'm still playing

'cause I love to hit that silly ball.

Where baseball, if you crowded the plate,

I didn't care how big you are,

I was gonna stick it in your ear.

And you know, and when I see that now with these kids,

I'm like, do we need to get them at nine and 10 years old?

Get them through the 13s and 14s

where they're ready at 15, 16 to take that next step.

Yeah, it's really interesting that you say that

about other sports because, you know,

Nick played basketball, you might know,

but he played basketball from the day he started playing tennis

as well, he played basketball all the way through to about age 15.

So really interesting because, you know,

I'm someone who encourages kids to play other sports,

but as we know, it's difficult to find the time

to get the volume of tennis that you need

and also play another sport.

But I'm probably one on this side of where

I'm not an extreme volume coach.

I kind of, a kid aged about 13,

I think about 12 to 13 hours of tennis on quarter week is enough.

Then you might be able to fit in,

then you got time to fit in another sport.

But I played heaps of sports as a kid

and I really think it's critical, not critical.

And I know it's not critical,

but I really think it's important to play another sport.

Nick developed so much from basketball

as a hand-eye coordination, such a big thing in tennis.

He developed that basketball as well as tennis,

footwork, perception,

but also just for your mental well-being,

playing a sport, playing a team sport is great,

I think, in having an interest outside of tennis,

not just hitting like, I say,

not just hitting balls every single day tennis balls.

So really interesting that you like kids playing other sports.

So I certainly do as well as long as you can find the time.

And here I think you can,

you only did one training session basketball once a week,

then played one game on a Sunday.

So it's not a huge commitment.

It could still easily get this 14, 15 hours of tennis in a week.

But yeah, that was really important for him,

I think, to play that basketball and he still loves basketball

and he might have been a good basketball player.

I don't know, he's certainly pretty good,

but I'm glad he picked tennis,

but yeah, it's interesting that...

Yeah, I guess I don't know, I don't think we see...

interesting what you see, but I think kids may be play a bit too much tennis sometimes.

I don't know, interesting what you're taking on that is the volume of how much tennis.

But you're right, you do need to be good at a young age in tennis.

We know that.

Well, I think you nailed it.

I think the stroke discipline is the uncoordest of what I see

and go back to the American player where they don't have this,

is the footwork.

Everybody has to be here.

I've heard my coach was all about looking cool

and thankfully for me it wasn't a choice, I'm five-nine.

I love basketball.

If there was a sport, if you asked me what would I want to do, that's it.

I love basketball, but I was five-nine, so there was a reality thing.

And I was five-nine later in life.

I was...

The short, I was always the kid who sat on the floor.

So I was always small.

But people asked me, where did you get your footwork?

I played a little defensive back in football and I played basketball.

And I was the shortstop.

That's where I got...

When we do the drills and we do cones and we do ladders, I don't know how to do that.

Because that's not how I did it.

I did it.

When I do footwork drills, I'm like, let's do some pass patterns.

Do it down and out because that's how I learned it.

I do think, absolutely.

I wish the kids, obviously, with the Europeans, were soccer.

That they get it there.

I don't think...

And I think that's where the American kids fail.

And I think it...

Like you said, leaves the critical point errors, errors, because they have the shots.

They don't set up properly and they miss.

When you...

Get a lot of chances, intent is to miss.

You know, when you have the opportunity, you have to capitalize.

So yeah, I think that's the hard part.

How do we get them?

As you said, one or two days a week, these academies, the ball, the territory academy.

Why aren't they playing basketball?

One day a week.

You're going to go play that.

Because you need it.

And you know, there's always...

Ladders, you don't look down at a floor and look at a ladder.

And say, well, I know my next step.

It's natural.

You know, you got to do it.

And yes, I do think there's a lacking here in America when it comes to footwork.

And I do...

It trivited to the lack of the second sport.

Yep, totally great.

When we talk...

Look at what I like, Senator.

Like, I got excited, who, what, national champion skier or something.

So we look at the multiple sport athletes.

And I think back, Bobby, here in the Atlanta area, I think of a Jeff Frank Cooler, who was

in high school about the same time that I was.

And he was a guy, Todd, that was just...

If everybody was playing baseball and everybody had their high school 400-500 average, he had

like a 900 average.

He was just the guy that was just that much better than everybody else.

And every once in a while, you have that guy.

And even in tennis, you end up with that same thing.

We had the kid...

We were losing to the 10-year-old when we were 15, because he was going to be that guy.

But it was also a reminder that we weren't going to be that guy.

Because we're losing...

Or if there's the young Nick Kerios coming up or the young Alex Diminari, you know, the

kids that really just figured it out early, sometimes they dive into tennis and they need

that release of a basketball or a baseball for Bobby.

And really the thing he actually lunged, more so in that way.

But I think that also prevents burnout, Todd.

Is that not something you see there as well?

Yeah, it's something we see a huge amount of.

Often it's parent driven to be honest.

I think tennis, we are the leader for psychotic parents.

I think we live now.

I don't know.

You don't have ice hockey there, do you?

I don't know.

I haven't seen ice hockey.

I think sometimes parents driven, they think you've got to do more and more and more and

more hours on court.

But hit more balls, more balls.

But so often it's not the case.

You need to go and play some other sports and have fun and play team sport.

I think it's something in Australia that I continue to push and try to...

It's hard with parents because I think I'm missing a session and that Wednesday afternoon

and I should be hitting another 1,000 tennis balls.

But actually, no, if you're doing 12, 30 hours on court as a 12-year-old, if you're not good

enough and you can't make it doing that, you probably aren't going to make it.

I really think that it's a critical playing of those sports and something in Australia

we're grappling with.

I'm his American, I'm sure.

I like Europe, the place of it, like you say.

It's so good for their footwork and their athleticism.

All-round athleticism.

But yeah, something anyone listening to, parents listening to this podcast, yeah.

If you can, get your kids into multiple sports, if you can.

Really important.

If you're that one sport thing, because Bobby and I also know here, we also end up with

the other side where the kids don't have enough time for anything else because they're

doing seven different things, seven days a week and they can't actually focus on one

thing.

Probably a different problem in that case.

But I think that speaks to, again, if you're going to make this commitment and Scott Porter,

his daughter played Division 1, Dennis, was a satellite player, had a little success.

And his role, I want to do as much as for her to succeed.

I don't want to sit there and dangle a carrot and then say, okay, but you have to do this.

That's what you're going to do, give the child every available option that you can afford

to do it.

But you brought up an interesting point, Sean.

And I'd love to get Todd's opinion on this because you mentioned Jeff Frank-Core.

And I don't know, Todd, you Jeff Frank-Core was a professional baseball player.

And as superstar athlete, he could have went to Clemson, which is a great football, American

football, school-of-play football.

When I saw Jeff Frank-Core hit, I said, wow, he's got a big problem.

And he came on, and he took the world by storm.

And he was out almost as equally fast because they identified the weakness and played to

it.

I looked at Robbie Geneppery.

I remember seeing Robbie Geneppery, the tennis player, as a 15-year-old running around

hitting round strokes saying, oh my God, who is this?

And then I saw him serve.

And I said, oh, now as the coach, how do you, and using P. Sanford's story of him from the

Sanford's, that his goal was to win Wimbledon.

And his coach had said, well, there had never been a two-hander, Serven Ballier, who won

Wimbledon.

We have to make your backing at one hand.

And he did it, and he went from number one in California, the 14s all the way down to number

three or four.

In Atlanta, the coach would have been fired.

As the coach, how do you sit there and say, this, we got a lot of great things, but there

is something that's exploitable, we need to take a step back.

And here, because the competitiveness of, there's only so many Robbie Geneppery.

There's only so many, you see that kid, and you see a meal ticket.

And you see a journey, where is the responsibility of the coach to sit there and say, yeah, but we're

limited by what we see right now.

Yeah, a really good point.

And I really think that's a critical thing about coaching.

A bit of art of coaching, isn't it?

You have to be, I suppose, confident enough as a coach to really, when you've got a really

top junior to say, hold on a second, it's easy to not rock the boat, I suppose, as a coach

and just do nothing.

The kids going along great and they're winning titles, etc.

And we're not going to keep developing, but I suppose as a coach, you've got to force yourself

and be confident and strong enough to keep identifying those weaknesses and keep developing

that game.

And it's a critical as a junior coach, I think I'm trying to do two things.

One is trying to develop their game for the long term, for the, for protests.

And you're trying to get results along the way as well.

And I think that's the balance as a junior coach and the art of being a really, really good

high performance junior coaches.

You're trying to do both.

You want to get results and you want to develop for the long term and you've got to keep

focusing on both things.

If you focus on one thing too much, all about results and you're probably not going to get

the development.

But if it's all about development and you go, I don't care about results, well then you

play a may well fall too far behind the pack and might be too hard to catch up later

on.

So try to find that balance the whole time as a junior coach and being strong enough and

confident enough to go, you know that forehand isn't going to hold up in five years.

We need to, we need to make that change now and iron out that swing and get the better

group now.

So in the long term, you know, that's the end game, right?

Convincing the parents and the athlete, the end game is pro tennis and that's where we

want to go and don't want to get, don't have a great junior career and then have, like

you said, not a very good pro career.

So yes, it's a really good point and I think the best coaches can do that around the world.

I think the best junior coaches and that's where we've got some great coaches on coach life.

The ones who have had real success where the players have really gone on to be great players

and they're the coaches we want to hear from and how did they do that?

How did they balance that result and development aspect and continue to get their player to

improve each and every year?

Okay, that's good.

I appreciate that.

Sorry, Bobby, you got one more because I was going to say, I don't know if we get to talk to

all the coaches that coach life, but when we got taught, we definitely got hit with King

of tennis.

Well, I don't go, but I mean, because I'm a, I'm a big Nick fan and again, contrary to his

personality or what is perceived as personality, he's remarkably efficient on the court.

I mean, he's one of the guys I turn to with my kids and say, look, look at his setup on his

back end, especially.

It's not a lot of extra motion going on.

You know, just the brief conversation we had with the founder of coach life, talking about

the speed tech, you know, what they did with her forehand and how they, you know, that's

a little extreme.

I'd like it to be a little looser, but you know, these are the things that you're looking

at that level too.

They're usually very, very, very, very, very, very good at the basic.

And, you know, and Nick is that guy and it's almost occurs when you look at, and say, I thought

it says in this, well, why do he, he's beyond the top 1%, I mean, how many billions of people

in this world?

You know, there's only so many more notches you can climb.

I don't know where you go.

And when you're at that level, there's, you know, there's five or six of the guys, especially

in his era, it was dominated by three people.

You know, how many people didn't win Grand Swamps because that three-headed monster called

Novak Roger and Roger.

Yeah.

That's tough to sit there and say, I wasn't as successful.

I wasn't as successful because I couldn't beat these three.

I'll take it.

Yeah, that's right.

I'm already done for two years.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, that's a tough one.

One of the cool things about talking about a guy like Nick is that we get to talk

more importantly to a guy like Todd.

And that's, that's why I appreciate the time, Todd, because anybody, anybody could look

at that and say, oh my gosh, well, clearly that was genetics or clearly that was coaching

or whatever it is that they look at it and they can't see the decades almost of work from

how we started it.

Seven.

Who knows when he hit his first tennis ball?

Was that probably that young or maybe a little earlier for him?

Yeah, probably six or seven out of eight about right.

Yes.

Seven is the usual time when that happens and you give him a few years and they get into

it and all of a sudden you see the kid makes me think of a guy on my college tennis team

that he was, he was the kid.

He was overweight.

But man, if you gave him a ball in the striped zone, you lost the point.

The point was over and it didn't matter what was going on.

He was going to figure out how to efficiently win the point to Bobby's point, which is, and

you just going to work with what you have and at some point you just end up unbelievably

good at it.

And if you're lucky enough to have a guy like Todd in your life, they can help you get there.

I'd say Nick's going to be thankful to you, right?

Yeah, well that's right.

I always say like I didn't teach Nick all these, no coach can claim they taught all these

amazing things.

I didn't teach Nick all these amazing things.

But I think I always say to coaches, if you had a player like Nick Kyros walked through

you to door, do you have the environment and the knowledge to develop that talent?

And I suppose that's that's kind of a message to other coaches like when talent walked through

your door, are you set up to be able to teach the fundamentals and the basics and all all

the things that a player needs to have?

And so if you combine that incredible talent with those fundamentals and that hard work

and the years of hard work, well then then then you might have something really special.

So what's the secret to developing players?

I think the secret is having good coaching knowledge, continue to educate yourself, having

a great environment, then hoping someone like Nick walks through your door and you get

lucky like you say, he's once in a generation player.

So I was just lucky that he came along when I was in the right place at the right time

and hopefully I helped him learn all those fundamentals of the sport.

And there you go coaches, there's your advice.

It's be ready, right?

What is the Bobby?

It's not luck, it's the intersection of opportunity and preparation.

Thank you opportunity and drag it.

There it is.

I like it.

Well Todd, I don't want to take up too much more of your time but I do want to ask you

our King of Tennis question and we ask this of everybody we talk to and we are

always curious if you were put in charge of tennis, if you were King of tennis, whether

it's professional tennis, junior, social, anywhere in the world, Australia doesn't matter

anywhere for any amount of time.

If you were King of tennis, is there anything you would do or change?

I love this question in the show is and I'm going to go I'm going to go to professional

tennis.

Okay.

Very cool.

The first thing I would do is combine the ATP and WTA to us.

I really believe we should have one tour.

I believe every time you go to is better with the men's and women's event better for the

media, better for the spectators, better for the TV ratings, better for the sport, the prize

money, the profit of the tournament, etc.

I really think the Grand Slam's they're doing it so well.

You leave the Grand Slam with the ITF but the ATP to and WTA combines.

The other thing I hate in tennis is a ranking system.

I'd really like to change and make it like golf where you the top 100 players have their

card for the January 2 November.

You play the full season.

If you finish top 80 in the world, you retain your card.

If you're outside of that and you're in the bottom 20, you're relegated to the challenger

tour and you have to have a year on the challenger tour and you got to get back in.

That would be what I would want to do.

I really think you could still have two tournaments on a week.

You could still have a men's and women's event in Stuttgart and Winonis Dambal for example.

You could still outside of the Master Series.

You could still have two or three events at the same time.

I still think men's and women's every week together would be amazing.

Also think a card would be amazing.

End of season, end of November.

Start of November, end of the tennis season.

Give the players a rest.

Give the fans a rest.

Seven night weeks and we start again and we go January to November.

That's my call.

Whether you could bring the WTA and ATP to a digital movie tricky.

That's all really pushback together.

You push back and we said, "All right, now you're in charge.

I'm going to have you call the ATP.

You know you got to make it happen, right?

That's the hard part."

You look at Madrid.

I think every tournament, you know sometimes a men's tournament is a phaser and the woman's

step up.

Sometimes the other way around, you got both tournaments there.

You got the best players in both men's and women's.

There's always great matches.

You know Madrid, all the men fell out but Chwanteck and Zabalenko, unbelievable final.

The woman held the tournament up there.

The odds are you open this year as a man who held the tournament up.

But there's so many fans who want to see both when they go to a tournament.

So I'd really like to say an expansion of that and every single tournament, men's and women's

the best players in the world at the same venue.

Yeah, a lot of people would agree with you.

Bobby and I have heard a theme recently which is about the biggest season which is about

having it down time for these players, giving them a chance to rest.

I say rest, relax and come back fresh.

But that probably means they're going to be out there, bust in their ass getting ready

for the next season.

But at least maybe not on, you know, working hard seven matches over a week and a half

or two weeks.

But Todd, I appreciate your time.

This has been amazing.

Again, like I said ahead of time, it was, it's just really cool.

We can talk to you in Australia live and see each other and look each other in the eye.

And it's, I love the technology.

I love the fact that we can just do this and have a conversation.

I appreciate you making time and we will put all the Coach Life links in the show notes

and we'll promote all that and we'll get you, we'll get your name and everything put

down in there.

We've got a referral fee or a referral link that lets you know who, who clicks on what and

you get, our listeners want to go out and grab a membership to coachlife.com.

It is, it is pretty cool.

There's some good content there, guys like, guys like Todd, but maybe not exactly like Todd

because with some similar stories because not everybody has that Nick Kerrio story for

sure.

Well, but I think there was, there's no coincidence that Coach Life pointed us toward

Todd first and we appreciate that, because well, you hit all my buttons, I don't know,

I could go longer.

All right, I appreciate it.

Thanks so much, Pavni.

Yeah, thanks so much, Pavni.

Real pleasure to be on the show and really love talking tennis.

Well there you have it.

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