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You are listening to the horse Radio.

Network, part of the Equine Network family.

This is episode 147 of Retired Racehorse Radio on the horse Radio Network, part of Equine Network, brought to you by Kentucky performance Products, Cashel Company, National Thoroughbred Racing Association.

And my new horse, Retired Racehorse Radio, is your guide to the adoption, care and training of the retired racehorse brought to you in cooperation with Retired racehorse project and new vocations racehorse adoption program.

On today's show, we're chatting with Dr.

Maureen Kelleher of Ohio State University about keratomas since she recently got to operate on our very own Shorty.

We chat with new vocations, Bridget Heasley about stereotypic behaviors in the standard bred.

And meet a new, adaptable horse of the week.

Stay tuned.

This is Joy Orr in Detroit, Michigan.

And this is Kristen Kovach Bentley in Jamestown, New York.

And you're listening to Retired Racehorse Radio.

And they're off on Retired Racehorse Radio.

The podcast that is your guide to.

The adoption, care and training of the retired racehorse.

Oh, Kristen, our animals.

Yeah.

I don't know, like, what is going on?

Energy in the air also.

Hi.

How are you?

Hi.

Listening.

Oh, you know.

Hey.

Hey, everybody.

We're starting with chaos because it feels like chaos.

We're just having our constant existential crisis.

It's fine.

I mean, I feel like when we started winter, we're like, oh, like this quiet, calm, like, rejuvenating time.

I don't feel rejuvenated.

I feel like I have five new gray hairs.

Oh, I don't count mine anymore.

I've just embraced that.

That's just part of who I am now.

Yeah.

Let's see.

I've had, like, a major surgery.

Not for me, but obviously, if anyone's been following along.

Shorty had a major surgery.

Shorty went to Kentucky for two months.

Shorty's now home.

So that's nice.

That is nice.

I will say.

Okay, drive during, like, not the nicest weather.

I was scared for you.

Yeah.

The morning I left was not great.

That was.

That was an exciting time.

I have never had that many problems with a trailer before.

So it was when I was fishtailing every time I pressed the accelerator.

That was no fun.

And then when the whole rig, like, bounced and shimmied above 50 miles an hour, that was no fun either.

But thank you to the fine folks at the blue light, or blue whatever, the truck wash in Erie, Pennsylvania.

They got me straightened out, so just blasted all the ice off the roof that was making all of My problems.

And, yeah, apologies to anyone who was driving behind me because it continued to shed ice for the next 200 miles, but in little chunks, it was all good.

It was fine.

Well, staying up to date with the adventure definitely made me sweat a little, But I was so happy to see that everything was fine.

Coming home.

And he seemed to adjust just fine, according to what you said.

Oh, my gosh.

It was like.

There was, like, shenanigans for about 20 minutes when jobber was like, I am stallion.

This is my territory.

I do not remember who you are.

Um, and Shorty was like, I just.

I live here.

Short Jobber was like, oh, yeah, you're right.

Uh, and then, yeah, ever since then, it's just been.

Here's my pro tip.

Okay?

So if you want to get a new horse and you can't afford to get a new horse, send an existing horse away for two months and then bring it back.

Because now, like, it's a novel.

I'm, like, shy.

I get to the barn, and I'm like, my new horse, even though this is a horse I've had the whole time, but I haven't seen him in two months, you know?

So now I'm like, hi, buddy.

So he's novel again.

Yes.

And he's like, this is so cool.

I'm getting so much attention.

And he got, like, a ton.

He got extremely personal attention in Kentucky.

My friends treated him like their own.

Like snuggles.

Every day.

My.

My friend turned on the Bills game so that he could listen to the Bills game and feel like he was at home.

Of note.

He has never once listened to a Bills game with us, but it's fine.

It was a lovely gesture.

I appreciated it.

He got cookies every day.

They taught him how to eat an apple because he didn't know how to do that.

He's not the brightest.

He's doing his best.

But, yeah, like, at home, he's like, this is great all over again.

So it's.

It's fun for me.

The novelty will wear off in a couple of weeks, and I'll be like, hey, shorty.

But for now, I'm like, oh, look, you know, so, yeah.

So, yeah, pro tip.

If you don't actually want to buy another horse, just send one away for a while, and then it's.

They're new all over again.

There you go.

There you go.

Well, that's fine.

I mean, I guess you could also send them to training and maybe get some menu party tricks or something.

That's what I'm saying.

Yes.

Send them out for 60 days of a refresher.

Yeah, I don't know that you should necessarily go the route I went because this was actually quite an expensive way to not get a new horse.

But it's all good.

Good.

And is Eric happy?

So I think so.

Eric actually went with me to Kentucky because my Kentucky friends were like, when are you gonna bring Eric?

So Eric got to go down, which was nice.

It was also just nice, too.

Especially since we had, like, a low key crisis on the way down to have, like, a buddy with me and then just to have someone else to help, like run the ipod and put on a new podcast and feed me M and Ms.

As we were going down the road.

Cause otherwise I had to do all that by myself.

So this was actually, I thought about, this is the longest distance I've hauled a horse myself from Kentucky to New York.

So I was like, oh, hey, we did it.

That in the passport stamp.

Good job.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It was a full weekend.

Still a little tired, but that's all right.

You can sleep when you're dead.

I didn't have quite as fun of an adventure as you did.

And mine's not nearly as, like, grand and happy.

Like, horse stuff is great.

Like, Astrid living her best life.

We're having fun with Liberty.

She's, like, really thoroughly enjoying herself.

It's been great.

My dog, Kristen.

My dog is the most expensive pet I've ever owned.

More than the horse.

Oh.

Oh, no.

I don't understand.

Like, the math doesn't math, but that's okay.

Oh, it.

It does.

No, the dog bills can rack up so fast.

It's so like you.

I told you in a group chat, but for the listener's sake, I thought my dog was, like, developing some acid reflux, which is gross.

And I'm sorry, Like, skip over, if this is not your jam, I promise I won't go into ultra detail.

But she's a senior dog.

We're gonna have our 10th birthday this year.

Like, I didn't think much of it, so we started making her food in a soup.

And it was fine, but there were just, like, still some nuances happening, like extra snoring and, like, hack sounds with nothing else, like, just weird behaviors.

Oh, and she makes this, like, what I call her little piggy sounds because they're like snort sounds around the house.

And I'm fine with it.

And, like, live your life.

But we had.

I found a lump on her, which, again, senior dog, they're gonna find lumps sometimes.

Like, let's just get you Checked out.

I'm thinking this is gonna be 15, 20 minute check at the vet, which turned into an hour.

Oh, no.

Because I had a different vet today, which she was great.

Loved her.

But she heard Tova's breathing and she's like, do you mind if we investigate this further?

Oh, that's never.

That's never good.

I was like, sure, tell me your symptoms.

So I went through everything like a little piggy sounds like this time she sounds like she has sleep apnea, breathing, the hacking, like, everything.

And I was like, I just assume that, like, she's got flux and it bothers her.

And she's like, no, your dog has a partially paralyzed throat.

Oh.

Oh, boy.

And what do we do with that?

She's like, nothing.

Oh.

She's like, it may get worse.

And then we can do surgery, but then we just have to keep it open.

But basically, Tova's throat will sometimes just close off so she can't breathe.

And then my dog, who has anxiety and has anxiety because of her anxiety, then panics because she can't breathe.

Breathe.

Oh, honey.

And then gulps the air, which causes the actual throw up episodes.

So that was fun.

I was like, okay, let's address the lump, which I'm thinking is just going to be like, benign, whatever.

And she's like, yeah, like a fatty tumor thing.

Yeah, yeah.

She's like, not only is this a suspicious lump, after they took a little bit and looked at it under a microscope, she's like, so now I have a surgery next week to get it removed.

Oh, geez.

She's like, it's infected because somehow it got Nick and grew into infection with pus.

So I'm force feeding antibiotics down my dog.

So what started out is what should have been like a $200 vet appointment is now like a $2,000 vet appointment that escalated fast.

And it's a castle where it's cheap.

Right.

Statistically, that's not right.

Yeah, no.

The small animal stuff gets so expensive fast.

Because I.

I don't remember if I ever talked about this or not, but, like, Lark had one of those winters, and again, it was the same time of year, like, she had Lyme disease flare up that didn't respond well, and she had to keep going back in, like, over and over again.

And this was also after she ate a corn cob and needed that surgically removed from her guts.

So, yeah, the small animal stuff adds up.

Especially when you have a not very bright small animal.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, yeah.

I mean, I still love her.

Yeah.

I was just about to say, like, do we love them?

Yes, we do still love her.

She's still great in so many ways.

Spend our money on.

And I don't need to retire.

It's okay.

Well, yeah, there's that.

Retirement.

That'd be nice.

Oh, well, enslaved my animals.

That's fine.

Enslaved to our animals.

But you know what?

Daylight savings is coming up.

Actually, by the time listeners are hearing it, daylight savings has happened.

We can all celebrate.

Equestrians can rejoice to that daylight.

We're going to get.

Maybe I'll be able to ride by then.

Maybe I'll be able to get the barn door open.

I don't know.

See the way this winter's going.

Yeah, I like it.

Positivity.

Yes.

Well, I'm actually excited for today's episode.

I feel like there's a lot more positivity in it than what I just shared.

And I think listeners are to like that a lot more than I have to share about my dog.

Hey, as you said, everything is content.

And it sure is because Today we have Dr.

Kelleher, who did Shorty's keratoma surgery.

So as promised, I think I alluded to this on our social media over the weekend.

We have her coming on to talk all about keratomas and why they should not keep you up at night, which I think is a very helpful caveat that she added.

And it was just overall fascinating.

So I can't wait for listeners to hear that and we get to talk about stereotypical behavior in, well, thoroughbreds.

And do they transition over to standees?

You'll have to listen to find out.

But I thought that was also quite interesting to hear from.

New vocations.

But before we get into all of that, you're going to hear from our premier sponsor, Kentucky Performance Products.

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Well, Joy, I'm always excited to have guests on that we've gotten to meet in person, and that's not always the case, although we do love to just talk to anybody who wants to be on the show.

But we have with us Dr.

Maureen Kelleher from Ohio State University, who I met when she did the surgery on Shorty's keratoma in December.

So Dr.

Kelleher is the associate professor of equine medicine and surgery at Ohio State and the Truman Chair in equine Clinical Medicine and surgery.

So, Dr.

Kelleher, welcome to Retired Racehorse Radio.

Thanks, guys.

I'm happy to be here.

Yeah, so I have, like, read a lot in the past, like, you know, like, in the thoroughbred Facebook groups and stuff.

And every now and then I'd see someone mention a keratoma, and I was like, don't really know what that is.

Never had to deal with it.

Not my problem.

And then suddenly it was my problem back in December.

So listeners who have been following along, you know, are familiar, I think, kind of with the bare bones of this story that, you know, I had a horse that presented with abscesses over and over and over again on the same foot over the course of a few months.

And we did a, you know, various levels of diagnostics, and we can get more into that later.

And he ended up going to see you at Ohio State.

And I remember you called me and you're like, surprise.

It's a keratoma.

So I was like, cool.

What is that?

Can you give us kind of an overview?

Like, what is a keratoma?

Yeah, I may have to go a little.

Give a little bit of background first about the foot or the hoof.

And I'm sure a lot of, you know, especially equine horse people, you know, have heard that the horse's hoof is very much like our fingernail.

And our fingernail and their hoof is made of keratin.

So that's one of the main proteins that make up that hard tissue that we know as a fingernail.

And unlike us, their hoof tissue is much, much thicker and sturdier.

And what happens if anybody has ever experienced, unfortunately, the condition of laminitis?

So so there's little interdigitations of tissue from the hoof that connect and interdigitate with the hoof tissue.

And that's how the hoof and the coffin bone stay connected to each other.

Well, in between there, we can get an overgrowth of the keratin, and that forms a little, for lack of a better way to put it, nugget or pearl of this keratin.

And what happens is, as the foot grows down, it presses more and more on the coffin bone, and it creates local inflammation.

And that local inflammation creates fluid and serum and pus that then breaks out the bottom or the top of the foot that looks like an abscess.

So this little nugget is.

Stays in there and just continues to create inflammation and.

And pressure on the coffin bone.

And so you guys see an abscess, you treat it like an abscess, it gets better, and the horse does well for a little while, and then maybe a couple weeks, a couple of months, and the same thing happens all over again.

And eventually you get tired of treating abscesses in the same foot over and over again, and you investigate with some more diagnostics.

So previously, before we had such great diagnostic imaging, you know, 20, 30, 40 years ago, it would take a long time before a big cavitation or big defect would show up in the X rays.

Now we have digital X rays, so we can really play around with the imaging.

And so sometimes a little bit easier to pick up that there's some bone missing.

And so we can catch them a lot sooner.

Sooner.

And in your horse's case, I think I was maybe suspicious.

However, I needed a little bit more proof.

So we did a CAT scan or CT scan to really get an idea of what was going on.

And in his case, confirmed that he did have one of these little nuggets of keratin pressing on the coffin bone and causing all his abscesses.

So, I mean, it sounds like such a simple little thing, like, oh, it's just like.

Like a little, like a bead, you know, or whatever.

Pearl nugget.

Yes, keratin.

But, like, it's such a big problem.

Like, so, like, how big is it?

Like, I'm looking like, at my own thumbnail.

Like, are we talking, like, thumbnail size or like.

Okay, so good question.

So it really varies from horse to horse.

So in my career, I have seen some.

That a face, like, potentially the whole front aspect of the.

The puff, like, can really create a defect like this, you know, a huge, I don't know, half a Fist size or one of those little tangerines, like, they can get big.

But I've also seen ones that are teensy tiny little guys that we would never have detected it unless we did, like, an mri.

Obviously, those little tiny ones are much easier to treat than those big giant honkers that grow.

And in that, like, if you were to, like, just Google keratoma, you would see just huge defects in feet, you know, or big patches with plates over them, or whole columns of hoof capsule missing.

Certainly some of that has to do with how big the keratoma is.

Some of it has to do with the approach.

You know, when I was first going through my surgery residency ages ago, we always put these horses under general anesthesia.

We always took out all of the hoof wall that was adjacent to the keratoma, regardless of its size.

So there was always a pretty sizable defect in the hoof capsule.

You know, fast forward a decade and a half or so, and now we're making small little holes and we're tunneling out just the bad stuff and keeping a lot of the hoof wall intact, which helps the hoof stay more stable and allows it to heal a bit quicker and with less complications because we're not exposing the entire coffin bone to the outside world.

So they can be very big, they can be very small.

I would say the average size.

Yes.

If you take your fingernail and make it a three dimensional blob, it's probably about the average one, is probably about that size.

Okay.

Interesting.

Yeah.

I'm just sitting here, like, staring at my own fingers now.

Yeah.

And I remember that, you know, you're like, we caught this one early, so it's not super big.

So because it, like, I'm thinking of like something the size of a tangerine.

Like, where does that even fit in the foot?

Like, there's not that much space for these things in there.

So.

Yeah, that's wild.

The one, the ones that get that quite large like that will create a very huge distortion of the hoof capsule and sometimes encroach up over the coronary band.

So almost in those cases, those ones almost look like really nasty, like, tumors that you can kind of see a bit more externally because it's caused so much trauma and damage and has grown so big.

And how fast do they grow?

It's not like you'd come out and all of a sudden find that on your horse like tomorrow.

Right.

Or would you?

Correct.

Trying to decide, like, how much should we all stay awake at night worrying about this?

Actually, don't any.

Don't anybody stay awake at night worrying about this?

I think it's a little bit more common now that we diagnose them actually a little bit earlier, as I said, because we have such good imaging available to us.

And so anything that looks a little bit awry, we can, if we need more information, we can get a CT or an MRI pretty quickly and easily and get to it sooner.

Now the hard part is if there's a span of time, you know, we all, everybody who has a horse has probably experienced having a hoof abscess.

So if, if shorty has an abscess in August and then he doesn't have another abscess until November, do you really remember which foot it was in?

You're probably like, well, it was a front foot.

I know it was a front foot, or it was a hind foot.

I know it was a hind foot, but which hind foot.

And then it doesn't happen again for another three months.

And you're like, was it the left or the right?

You might go three or four abscesses before you're like, okay, this is always the same foot.

And then you get X rays.

And then, you know, by that point it might be a good size little nugget.

Okay.

Conversely, you could have a horse that doesn't have any drainage but has some lameness, some low grade lameness that, say, blocks to a heel block.

And so, and we don't see much on X rays at all because it's, it hasn't manifested radiographically yet.

But they can't quite seem to get this worse.

Comfortable.

They've tried coffin joint injections, they've tried chewing changes.

They tried this, I tried this.

And the horse is not getting better.

And they send it in for mri and lo and behold, it's an abs, it's a keratoma.

So there is the possibility that we can find these little tiny ones not because they're causing abscesses, but because they're causing lameness.

So the smaller ones, I think, have the more of that history.

The medium or, you know, the average size ones and greater, you know, tend to have been hanging around for a little bit longer and creating these little abscesses that, you know, all of us always got an abscess.

You just treat it and you go on with life.

So it's not until you start to recognize, hey, this keeps happening in the same foot.

Or why does this keep happening in the same foot?

Additionally, because depending on where that keratoma starts, you know, there's hoof there's hoof everywhere.

And so it could start on any of the.

Of that surface of the hoof wall that we see, and it could start up high, closer to the coronary band, which means it's gonna take longer for it to grow down.

It's going to get pushed down with hoof growth, but that also gives it more time to compress on the coffin bone and create a problem.

But if it starts, for example, I had a horse in the summer that it actually didn't start until about halfway or three quarters of the way down the foot away from the coronary band.

So.

So the tunnel that we had to make surgically to get that keratoma out was much smaller than, say, shorties, which started closer to the coronary band and was growing down and causing more compression on the coffin bone.

So the other horse was having more lameness issues, whereas Shorty was having more abscess issues.

Because the continual inflammation based on where it was starting and growing down, it had more time to have that inflammation create some necrosis and fluid and pus buildup that needed to go somewhere, and it either busts out the coronary band or it drains.

You know, it works its way out and comes out as an abscess.

Now, if it's not caught, you know, if the recurrent abscesses keep happening, nobody sees it or recognizes it or anything, sometimes it will get to the point where that keratoma has grown to the solar surface, and we can actually see a circular defect in.

On the solar surface of the foot.

Yeah.

So in those ones, it's a little bit more slam dunk.

I know where I gotta go because I can see it.

But there's also been probably tons of hoof damage by that point, and those are ones that are going to need, like, almost like a subtotal hoof wall resection.

Okay.

So this is not the kind of thing where it's like, eh, wait and see if it grows out.

Like, they don't grow out.

They will just continue to sort of destroy the foot.

Yes.

Yep.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And there are keratomas, so I don't want to scare everybody, you know, if you do send your horse off for an MRI for a lameness issue, and you might happen to read the radiology report, and they may say, o, there's a keratoma here, they will get what I.

I mean, they're all benign in the.

In the grand scheme of things, because it's not a malignant tumor that's going to spread around the body or Anything like that, but they can form little nuggets of keratoma that don't cause any lameness, don't cause any abscesses.

And they're just incidental findings.

And those ones will grow out and you'll.

No big deal.

It's the one.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah, it's the ones that are close, you know, have close association with the cough and bone that's going to create some pressure and create inflammation and create that serum and pus that needs to come out and create an abscess.

Yeah, okay.

Yeah.

So I thought it'd be helpful, like, maybe to kind of, like, walk people through the timeline, you know, on how we got to where we are.

So.

And if I remember correctly, it was, like, about September.

And it's hard to say for sure because I.

I'm not very good about writing these things down.

Like, I probably should as a horse owner, you know, like, when things start.

But September, October, Shorty had, you know, what looked like an abscess in the right hind.

Because he is usually good for an abscess every fall when the weather starts to get wet again.

So we're like, oh, here we go.

It's Shorty's fall abscess.

Cause he went from, like, perfectly sound and happy to, like, hobbling around on that right hind.

We were like, oh, that's pretty abscessy.

So treated it for an abscess.

Never saw anything burst, but he got sound.

So we're like, okay, well, cool.

It must have blown somewhere.

And I just can't find it, or it reabsorbed.

And then throughout the fall, he did that two more times.

Um, and by the third time, I was like, that's it.

That's enough times.

Like, it's been in that same foot every time.

So we called our clinic in New York that we haul into for X rays, and I was like, listen, I've had this abscess.

It's getting worse.

And I can actually kind of see a deformity, like, coming out the coronary band and the.

The front of the foot.

So I have a feeling it's going to blow.

But I would just feel better if we got X rays on the books.

And they were like, sure, bring them up.

So, of course, the morning that we bring them up, it did blow out the top, and then it also blew out the toe.

So I was like, well, this is cool.

It's draining top and bottom.

I've never seen that before.

That's exciting.

Um, and our vet up there, she probably took 30 different pictures because she was very invested at this point in trying to figure it out.

Because when she started taking X rays, the abscess track looked like an amoeba in the foot.

Like, it went.

She's like, I've never seen one do this.

Like, it was going around the side and it was going up and down and around the other side.

And like, she's like, normally it's like this little tiny line and he's got this giant thing.

So something crazy is going on in here.

So.

So we, you know, wrapped the bejesus out of that foot and sent him back home again.

And she's like, well, we're going to send these on to OSU for a consultant, so you'll hear from them soon.

Because her initial fear was that it was osteomyelitis, which would have been like an infection in the coffin bone, which would have been quite serious.

Um, so we were like, well, fingers crossed.

It's not that, but we'll see.

So, and then took him to osu, and fortunately it was not that.

And then, yeah, you found the keratoma.

So.

And yeah, you, like, pretty much tunneled through the foot.

So I had seen lots of pictures, you know, of these big, dramatic hoof resectioning, you know, where there's this big arch kind of taken out of the front or the side, and you're like, yep, it's cool.

It, like opens top to bottom.

And I was like, oh, this is like way less, you know, I mean, it's obviously invasive in that there's a tunnel through my horse's foot, but it's like, much less invasive, you know, than what I was, like, expecting.

So, so how does that work?

I mean, like, you, like, how do you physically do that?

Good question.

So based on.

So I had the CT and was able to, you know, sort of use the CT to sort of know where the start of it was.

And I knew that I was going to have to tunnel it to the toe to get all the abnormal keratin tissue out of there.

So once I have, you know, it localized on the foot, based on the ct, I use a dremel and I create the circular defect on the, on the hoof wall until I get to that column of abnormal tissue.

And then.

And then I just kind of tunnel down, have a couple of different instruments.

We use a variety of debriding instruments to create the tunnel and then just make sure that we've gotten all the abnormal keratin tissue out.

In his case, he did not have a lot of bone damage or Bone trauma.

So I didn't have to really do too much to clean up the bone.

Just getting the keratoma off, you know, out of there, off the bone is what the bone needed.

But to just take a quick step back.

The osteo.

Osteomyelitis.

Yes.

Would be like the more worst case scenario.

And they are.

Can be sometimes difficult to distinguish from each other.

So the classic keratoma on an X ray is very circular, scooped out, even margins, whereas osteomyelitis is not.

It's very kind of eaten up and not very smooth and contoured.

But in the early stages of a keratoma is going to be before it becomes this nice uniform looking defect in the coffin bone on X rays, it's going to look fuzzy and weird.

So again, since we have all this technology now, we're catching them earlier.

But you know, there's been open drainage.

It's blown out the top or it's thrown out the bottom or it's blown out both ends and that what's blowing out is pus.

So you have to worry that there may be an infection in there.

Um, but it's always good to go.

Oh, no, it's not an infection, it's just keratoma.

Yeah.

That was like the happiest call I had gotten.

I was like, oh, good.

Yeah, because.

Yeah, because otherwise, you know, you're talking about like debriding the actual cough and bone and that's like.

Yeah, much more invasive and longer layup and everything.

So.

Yeah.

So.

And then, yeah, you're like, he really just needs about 30 days in a dry stall to kind of regrow foot.

And of course I sent him down to friends in Kentucky because I just anticipated that if I tried to stall him at home, it was just going to be a disaster.

He would be jumping over walls and throwing himself out of windows and stuff because he's just that kind of guy.

So sending him somewhere, like a completely new environment was the best case scenario for him.

So I didn't get to see a lot of like the changes day to day.

My friends were pretty good about sending me photos, like every couple days when they changed the bandage out.

And it was gnarly to look at.

Like, you know, again, all we want you to.

You were getting the same photos just to kind of check on his progress.

And it was very strange to look into the foot.

So can you describe to us like what, what it was that you were looking for?

Because to me, I was just like every time I saw it.

And you're like, this looks great.

I was like, I'll take your word for it because it looks really scary to me.

So, yeah, so, I mean, it's a wound, so we're always going to have a little bit of, you know, the white blood cells in the body are going to come clean up debris.

But what I was looking for is the formation of granulation tissue.

So that's like one of the first tissues that comes in to heal a wound.

And that tissue is usually like a nice, healthy, vibrant pink tissue color.

And then over time that granulation tissue becomes waxy and then becomes more keratinized.

So I was just making sure that it was nice, pretty looking, plump granulation tissue rather than what I wouldn't want is like gray tissue or really like purpley black tissue that indicated that things weren't healing or something was necrotic or some or secondarily infected.

And I wasn't getting that good in growth of healthy tissue.

So your friend did a great job with videoing it, like moving the camera around and giving us a good virtual tour of the defect, the wound.

And I could see that pink tissue coming, growing up out, you know, up and into the, into the column.

And so I was very happy with that.

With that.

Yeah, well that's good.

Yeah, because it was just very.

It's.

That's one of those things like you're not supposed to see the inside there.

So I was like, I don't like this at all.

So.

But yeah, glad that that looked good to you.

So one of the kind of continuing challenges, of course, is that the bottom tunnel happens to be under where the shoe sits.

So now.

So he ended up staying like kind of an extra 30 days, partially because my friends down there were like, we have not worked with one of these.

We're not like super comfortable like turning him out quite yet.

And I was like, you know what, that's fine.

Err, on the side of caution, like, we've come this far.

Like, we'll take our time.

And they ended up having the root and riddle podiatrist come out, you know, because they're in central Kentucky, so it's very easy.

And now he's put a different shoe on and then he's patched over the top.

So I still can't see it.

Arrived at OSU right after he got the shoe on to pick him up.

And then I'm like, ah, there's still a shoe on it.

So I have yet to be able to like.

And at this point I probably cannot.

I can no longer See, like top to bottom, right?

Like that's should have grown in.

Yeah.

All right, good deal.

So if I, yeah, if we take everything off when he's due for his next shoe and I can see through it, that's a problem.

Good to know.

Yeah, yeah.

And it's, it's the patch, the patch on the top is, you know, just saves you guys from having to keep that hole from getting junk in it.

So it's, it's probably in the long run, cheaper than wrapping it with Elasticon all the time.

And then the, as the foot grows out, you know, it's probably just a little fill in again to avoid stuff getting stuck up in the defect as everything grows down and out.

Yeah.

So.

And I've been keeping my Farrier updated and she's, I think looking forward, she's excited to like get a look at it and get her hands on it.

Um, cause she's relatively new to the profession and I don't think she's worked with one of these before either.

So how common are they?

I mean, like, how many do you see in a year?

Oh, that's a good question.

I would say personally, I probably see two or three, but I think as a sur, you know, a surgery service, we probably see, I don't know, maybe one to two a month, you know, over the course of a year.

Yeah, it's not that common.

Okay.

Yeah, I was going to say I need this in different terms too because I'm like, well, out of how many surgeries are you doing?

So.

Okay, so not super common.

So.

So if you have a horse with, you know, a recurring abscess, that doesn't necessarily need to be your first red flag, like, oh my God, it's a keratoma.

Correct.

Correct.

Yeah, correct.

Yeah.

Although I would say if you're treating an abscess in a three to four month period, if you have an abscess in the same foot that looks like it's coming from the same area, I would have your vet come out and take X rays.

Yeah.

Just be on the safe side.

Are the easiest and compared to everything else, cheapest way to figure out what's really going on in there.

So.

Yeah.

Correct.

Now, do you think that they are more common in thoroughbreds or is this just coincidence that I have a thoroughbred and my friends all have thoroughbreds because we're all thoroughbred?

I think it's probably a coincidence because you're a thoroughbred person.

I have treated quarter horses, draft horses, Irish horses.

Yeah, I, I have.

I don't think, honestly I don't know, but I don't think there's any breed predilections in the literature.

And I can't say that I think thoroughbred when I think keratoma.

I just think horse with a hoof keratoma.

I mean, that's too bad for all of us who love horses because they are always finding elaborate ways to try to off themselves.

But that's good to know that it's not any better or worse for thoroughbreds.

So.

Awesome.

Correct?

Yeah.

Cool.

Well, Dr.

Kelleher, this has been super interesting.

We will have to pick your brain on what your other like favorite surgeries are to do because we'd love to have you come back on and talk about more.

But yeah, this was a fun like, like real life one since I just went through this.

Yeah, you very nicely went through it with me.

So yeah, thanks very much for sharing all that.

And where can like, what's a good resource if listeners want to learn more about keratomas?

Do you have any like resources off the top of your head?

I would say I don't have any off the top of my head, but I would make sure that it's a good reputable source like a university or like the American Farrier association or something like that, rather than somebody's personal experience who may just be taking liberty with their right, with their web access.

Yeah, I'm just here as the gateway.

I'm here as the gateway.

I experienced it now so listeners don't have to.

But I am not the resource.

Dr.

Kelleher is the resource.

Well, thank you so much for joining us.

This has been super fun, especially now that he is home and in one piece.

It's much more fun than it was two months ago.

So awesome.

Yes.

Makes me happy too.

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Well, Kristin, we know that there are lots of incentives to go to the makeover, but what is the RRP doing currently?

Yeah, so right now we have a really cool scholarship available.

It's the ASPCA Right Horse Scholarship.

It was funded through the 2024 Reimagining Racers Grant that we got from ASPCA.

So this scholarship will actually reimburse you up to $405 per horse to cover your stall and your first discipline fee of the Thoroughbred Makeover if you are adopting an eligible horse for the makeover.

So if you are listening to this, you are a makeover trainer and you haven't gotten your horse yet.

Definitely keep this in mind.

All the horses that are eligible are listed on our horse listings.

They have a little scholarship icon and that means that that horse is eligible for you to apply for some of these reimbursement funds.

I also know that new Vocations horses are also eligible.

They're not listed on our website.

But between that and then New Vocations Additional Grant, you can actually make out pretty well taking a new vocations horse to the Makeover.

So just some additional scholarships and incentive programs just to help defray the cost of the makeover.

Especially in a year where everything seems to be getting more expensive.

So lots of opportunities to participate.

The Thurbrid Makeover is still accepting late applications, so you can head over to therrp.org and log in at portal to start your application now.

Joy we have another track to triumph.

Story we have so many great stories that have come in from listeners.

So listeners, thank you so much for sending those in.

As a reminder, if you would like to submit your story, you can find the form pinned on our Facebook page.

Retired Racehorse Radio Today's story comes from Lane Shaffer and it's about Floo Powder, which is an A&Jockey Club name.

This story is a little long, so I did edit it down just a little bit in the interest of time and I will let you know where I've sort of skipped over a little bit here.

So in Lane's words, Flu was bred by the farm I manage, Arrowwood Farm in Pennsylvania, although I never met him until he retired and came home as a four year old.

As I started at the farm in 2014.

The horse is a 2011 model.

He was already at the track working towards his first start.

I actually fell in love with his half sister who was at the farm being treated for a minor issue and everyone said wait until you meet Flu.

If you like Glitch, you'll really like him.

Side note, Glitch is also an excellent name.

Flu came home after his last race in April of 2015 as he'd come out of the race sore.

The first time I met him was when I walked onto the trailer to unload him and I was absolutely giddy when I saw this at the time.

Dark gray polka dotted little horse standing there.

I brought him to my personal farm about 60 days later and shortly after that sent him for surgery to have a chip removed from his knee.

Flew had a big reputation on the track for being tough.

He would break out of the gate and then try to duck in on the turn and go back to the barn, or he'd be galloping down the track and drop his shoulder and suddenly be running the other way.

I'm pretty sure he made an exercise rider never come back and ride for that trainer again.

Um, I had a trainer and fellow barrel racer who I'd never had a conversation with before come up to me and say, oh, did you get flu powder?

He was really bad at the track.

Flu's journey to be restarted as a barrel horse was a long one.

We began under saddle work in the fall of 2015, and he proved to be just as tough as he was on the racetrack.

We made slow progress, sometimes feeling like it was one step forward and two steps back, but he was finally ready to steadily start entering in 2019.

Just to condense here a little bit, Lane and Flew had a couple of really strong seasons with lots of big wins, including winning the 1D average at the inaugural TIP Barrel Racing Championships.

We started out 2022 with a couple of really strong competitive runs, but in the beginning of April, we had a really bad rack at a barrel race that left Flu sore and me with a torn ACL and a complete rupture of my lcl.

In addition to effusion and bone bruising in my right knee.

Ouch.

I struggled to continue riding the rest of the year to make it back to Kentucky for the TIP Championships.

Unfortunately, what I didn't know was that Flu was also struggling with a stifle injury that took us nearly a year to diagnose.

Sometimes we made an okay run, sometimes he couldn't turn the second barrel.

I made a clean run before heading to Kentucky, actually at the same arena where we'd had our wreck, and then couldn't turn the second barrel in Kentucky.

I brought him home and made another clean run, followed by another run not turning the second barrel again.

Finally, in the late summer of 2023, after a lot of vet visits and a lot of money, we were able to diagnose and treat him correctly and I got my horse back.

He went on to make a handful of runs at the end of 2023, all of which were absolutely beautiful.

I went into 2024 with the what if he's not actually better mentality.

But he just kept going, finally happy to be back and doing his job.

And he won the 1D buckle for a local jackpot series where he was regularly running against some really nice rodeo and open horses.

So what I'm saying is that sometimes just not giving up is your triumph story.

There were sure a lot of times where I wanted to throw in the towel with him, call it quits and just retired to a life of trail riding.

But I was thankfully just too stubborn to do it.

Lane, thank you so much for sharing the story of you and Flu Powder.

I have met Flu in person.

He is just as beautiful as Lane describes.

Very cool horse.

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Well, it is that time of the episode where we bring on our favorite friends from the new vocations adoption facility and we have Bridget Heasley with us today who is going to bring us some insights from the standard bread side of things.

Welcome back to the show, Bridget.

Hi guys.

It's always great having you.

How are you?

It is good to be here.

The season changes like it's more daylight and the temps are starting to cooperate, but we also know it means wet.

Are the horses adjusting okay?

They are all swamp creatures here.

They are enjoying their lakes in their turnout and are finding great deal of delight in wallowing in every soggy patch that they can come up with.

Oh boy.

Oh, this is not our training tip, but this is just curiosity.

Do you like have the clear separation of the horses who are like, ew, mud, wet.

And then the horses are like, yes, I want to be coated in this slop.

I want my skin to never be seen.

Yes, I have.

You know, most of the standard bread seem to very much enjoy all of their mud.

I do have one right now who's a bit of a princess.

He doesn't, he doesn't want to be filthy.

But when asked why do I blanket or sheet my horses, it's not because they can't grow the hair.

It's just because when they're given the opportunity to have the mud, they Are having the mud all over themselves.

Oh, my gosh.

Yes.

That is why.

That's why you blanket.

Yeah.

So you don't have to.

So much mud.

Not everyone's got the time, especially when you are retraining so many amazing horses over there.

Absolutely.

I know Kristin had some questions for you, which I also thought were interesting, so I'll pass it over to you, Kristen.

Yeah.

So we're taking advantage, Bridget, of the fact that you work with both thoroughbreds and standard breads, because I've been curious about this for a while.

I have one standard bred two thoroughbreds.

And I notice a couple of, like, stereotypic behaviors, or what we used to call commonly stable vices.

We're now calling them stereotypic behaviors to be a little nicer.

I have one cribber only at meal times, who's a thoroughbred.

And I have.

Well, my.

My other thoroughbred just came back from 60 days of stall rest, and he was a stall walker, but we kind of gave him a free pass cause he was on stall rest.

So stall walker, like, you know, in that particular scenario.

And then we have Wes, my standard bread, who's a perfect little angel and has none of these stereotypic behaviors at all.

So is that coincidence, or do you find that the standard breads, maybe because they aren't stabled as much as the thoroughbreds, they don't develop these vices?

I guess I just want to know, am I normal?

So standard birds definitely have their own sort of stereotypic behaviors that are a little bit different than the 300.

It is really, really uncommon to have a cribbing standard bread.

And, I mean, they do exist.

I have, you know, encountered a couple, but literally less than 5 in the time that I've been here at new vocations of standard birds that actually cribbed, I have a handful of delightful.

I love them cribbers that are thoroughbreds, that are my own personal horses.

And, you know, they do what they do.

They also don't seem to stall walk as much as the thoroughbreds do either, because, you know, I've seen.

I've seen a fair bit of that sort of, like, weaving and kind of pacing behavior from the thoroughbreds that I don't often see in the standard breads.

The standard breads, kind of like we talked last time, they love their helicopter head, right.

And they.

They play with their mouths a lot.

We, you know, we'll see them sucking on their tongue.

We'll see them flapping their lips.

They'll.

We joked that one of our horses, wind of the north was a beatboxer because we heard the sound coming and we weren't sure what it was and we turned around and he was like blowing raspberries with his.

I love that.

And so that's, that's more what I see with them than, you know, your typical cribbing or weaving like you frequently see in the thoroughbreds.

And much like thoroughbreds, you know, turnout is, turnout is so good for everybody involved.

Turnout helps all the things.

Right.

But you know, they do, they do still show you a little bit of those behaviors even when they are on turnout, but it doesn't seem to be the cribbing or the weaving.

Yeah, like the less destructive ones.

Yeah.

And I have noticed.

Okay, so yes, Wes is perfect, but he does do kind of this odd like twisty head mouth thing when he's waiting to come in to eat.

That's the only time I see it.

And I assume that he learned it from Shorty because Shorty also does a weird twisty head mouth thing, but it's a little different.

And I was like, oh, that's a really fun thing that you learn from each other.

But I don't think he did, now that you're saying it, I'm like, oh, maybe he's always done that, you know, and just, it's come out now and you know, I'll just, I'll find him at the door.

And I'm like, what are you doing?

He's like, just waiting for you, just passing the time.

So.

Right, right.

Oh, that's fun.

But yes, I agree, turnout has helped like with all of these things.

So, you know, Jabber just cribs on his feed pail at meal times when he's inside and then that's the end of it.

I don't see him do it outside at all.

So, yeah, turnout helps a lot of this.

So.

Yes.

Cool.

Well, good to know.

All right, folks, if you would like to increase your chances of not getting a cribber, keep a standard bread in mind.

Yes.

So, speaking of Bridget, can you tell us about our adoptable horse of the week?

Today we're going to talk about Quality Closer.

And we call him Q Bert.

After.

The video game Hubert.

That's precious.

But he is a 13 year old warhorse.

He had 316 starts and over half a million dollars in earnings.

He has just a stacked pedigree with, you know, quality Western, Western Hanover, Blissful Hall.

And you know, he is very, he's, he's a distinguished gentleman.

You know, he lives up to his pedigree and his warhorse status, he's very, very, you know, observant and watchful, and he learns very quickly, and he's been a real joy to have in the barn.

And as we've had him longer, his sweet personality is starting to come out, and he'll follow you around to get head scratches and things like that.

And he's a guy for my gated horse people because he just wants to pace everywhere.

Oh, fun.

They.

Yeah, they had turnout yesterday out in the big field.

The thoroughbreds and the standard birds together, and most of them were galloping, and Qbert was just pacing as fast as his little legs would carry him.

And he.

And that translates to under saddle.

He has a nice, slow, like, real smooth pace, and he has a.

A, you know, big, moving, faster pace for when you want to get somewhere in a hurry.

So he could be a lot of fun for the trail riders or the pleasure riders that will just enjoy a horse that gates.

I love that.

That sounds fun.

And now that.

Yeah, you mentioned, like, oh, he's very distinguished.

And now I would like to say that comes from the Western Hanover, because that's Wes's sire.

And I also tell Wes he's very distinguished as well.

So I'm definitely gonna keep an eye out.

I know we are getting a little bit of a sneak peek.

We are recording this at the end of February, and he's not on the website yet, so I'm gonna keep an eye out for him when he is on the website.

One, so that we can share it with listeners, and then two, just to see if there is a little familial resemblance there between him and Wes.

Not that I need another one, but I'm always curious.

But you gotta look.

You gotta look at all of them.

I mean, maybe I want to do more trail riding.

I don't know.

We'll see where the future takes me.

Love it.

So, Bridget, where can people find adoptable standard reds from new vocations?

They can find adoptable standard breads@newvocations.org and all of our horses, thoroughbreds and standard breads, are listed there.

We always have wonderful, wonderful horses available of both varieties.

And, yeah, a lot of times those horses are gone before the episode comes out.

So to increase your chances of getting one of those horses that we feature, get your adoption application in, because it is good for two years.

So get on that, folks.

New vocations.org Bridget, thanks very much for joining us again.

Oh, you are very welcome.

Enjoy the spring.

I hate spring.

Thank you so much to our sponsors, Kentucky Performance Products, Castle Co.

The National Thoroughbred Racing association and my New Horse into our partners New Vocations Racehorse Adoption Program and the Retired Resource Project.

Don't forget to check out all the other shows on the Horse Radio Network for the equine network@horseradionetwork.com and don't forget to rate, review and subscribe to the show as it really helps us grow.

Remember to set your goals high and love to learn from every ride and.

Always Cowside Leg hi guys.

RA.