Well, the question was asked to one Katanji Brown, Chief justice, before ascending to become one of the Chief Justices.

What is a woman and her.

The answer to that question was, I'm not a biologist.

It seems that we live in a day and age that people are confused as to what a man is and what a woman is.

How can this possibly be for such a simple question and answer?

Join us as we take this time to stop and think about it.

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You're listening to Stop and Think About It, a podcast for the Christian thinker.

In a day when sound biblical preaching has been replaced by man centered entertainment and the church is becoming increasingly anti intellectual, this podcast will encourage believers to think biblically and theologically.

So please join me as we get ready to stop and think about it.

Well, greetings, friends and foes, saints and sinners.

Welcome to episode 62 of the Stop and Think about it podcast.

I'm your host, Phil Sessa, AKA the Bronx Expositor, along with our podcast producer, who is also the host of the Breaking Bread podcast, Ishmael with no Age, Claudia.

And today we have a returning special guest with us, Rick Thomas from Life Over Coffee.

How are you, Rick?

I'm doing well.

Thank you for having me here.

Amen.

So last time we spoke about biblical counseling and it was certainly an amazing episode.

If you did not listen to episode 61, please go back and do that.

And in this episode, we'd like to dive into biblical book manhood.

So, Rick, why is there confusion about manhood at all?

Well, that's an agenda.

The culture is trying to deconstruct what it means to be a man and woman.

Now, ultimately, it's leading toward transhumanism.

It began early on with there was a man and a woman, and then, then there's homosexuality that came on.

Then there's transgenderism and then there's transhumanism.

And so this is the progression that we are on.

This is an agenda.

Ketanji Brown knows exactly what a man and a woman is.

She's not confused at all.

But she is part of the zeitgeist, whether she is intentionally doing it or riding along, because it would be, she would be canceled.

It would be a career ending move for her to define what a woman is.

And so there could be, and I'm not addressing her motive because I have no idea what her motive is.

But there are competing things as to why that she would say what she did.

But there's no way that she could go as far as she's gone in the academic system.

There's no way that she can live rationally in this world and not know that there's differences between men and women and that she could define a woman.

But she was being evasive because she was being loyal to the agenda.

And so that's parts, a big part of what's going on here.

Sure.

Because I believe Joe Biden said he was going to pick a black woman for that position.

So how did she know what a woman was to fill the position, if you will, if she couldn't even define what.

What one was?

Right.

Whenever you deviate from truth, and I'm talking about truth as outlined in God's Word.

Yes.

Then you have to make up stuff.

And of course, once you start making up stuff, then you can't hold all that together.

Yes.

Because there will be ongoing contradictions.

And so will say this here, that there, and the other thing.

And those two things can, I mean, three things can contradict each other, but that's because we've made a choice to walk away from truth.

And so there's, there's no way that they can keep all that together without contradicting themselves.

Yeah, they're just, they're.

They're so inconsistent, you know, and so when you push these issues to the logical conclusion, they're all over the place.

And so now you use the, the phrase trans species.

That if I understood you, right.

Trans.

Transhumanism.

Okay.

How would, how would you define that so that we.

Well, it's, it's man and machine.

Okay.

Coming, coming together.

And we are on the precipice of it now with AI in the book, I believe it was called the Shallows, that.

That may be the title of it.

I read it about 10 years ago.

But they talked about Google's 300 year.

The author talked about Google's 300 year plan.

And their 300 year plan is to create artificial intelligence that knows exactly what you want.

It can.

It is a human.

They began that many years ago.

You see that when you Google something, you know, it gives you that drop down.

What is it trying to do?

It's trying to predict where you want to go.

And so they give you all of these suggestions.

The algorithms are designed the same way.

If you look for this type of shirt, then you see, you know, seven different variations that keeps dropping down into your stream.

And so they're trying to create human behavior or transhumanism, and that's ultimately where it's going.

But in order to do that, you have to.

To deconstruct what a man is and what a woman is.

And so once those categories go away, you can create new categories.

And again, we started that with homosexuality, where a man and a wife would marry.

That is marriage.

And so then now they redefine marriage where it can be a man married to a man.

A woman.

Excuse me, a woman married to a woman.

Or sologamy is a person marrying themselves.

Polygamy is a person marrying multiple wives.

So it's this deconstruction of what God's word teaches.

And a part of that is trying to deconstruct male and female.

Yeah, yeah.

So the world speaks out of, like, both sides of its mouth that you say they can't keep it all together.

So on one hand, they said, well, we don't know what.

What a man and woman is.

And then on another side, speaking out of the other side of their mouth there, the world seems to be used this phrase toxic masculinity.

So what.

What is that?

And how does the scripture speak to that?

Toxic masculinity is a part of the deconstruction process.

Now, as far as a recommendation is concerned, Nancy Percy has done a wonderful work, the War.

I always get the title wrong, but, Nancy, the War Against Toxic Masculinity.

I have that book around here somewhere.

I actually read it and reviewed it.

My review is in the book and did an interview with Nancy Percy.

So I'm very familiar with the book, and I want to give her credit for that.

But again, what's going on here is a deconstruction of masculinity.

We've got to remove those categories.

And so one of the things that's going on is to remove what it means to be a man.

And by talking about the sinful side of men, masculinity, so that we can tear down the patriarchy.

That's all that they're trying to do here.

And what they're talking about, one of the, let's say, tricks of the devil is to take a little bit of truth and then put a spin on it rather than just communicating a total lie.

One of the most.

Two of the most common ones in the last decade were Black Lives Matter.

Yes, obviously Black Lives Matter.

And so they took a truth and this is how the evil one works, and then distorted it into an agenda.

The other One is the MeToo movement to where Women Matter.

You could say believe all women.

Well, there's some truth hidden in there, but again, they just turn things just a little bit toxic.

Masculinity is very similar because men do bad things.

Men can be very sinful.

Men are sinful, and so we're highlighting.

But what they do is like, masculinity is toxic.

And so now they're making a global statement that all men are evil and all men are toxic, and masculinity is toxic.

And so we need to tear that down.

And so there's no nuance, there's no sophistication in thinking about what the problem is.

One of the interesting things about Parsey's book that she brought this out is that you have to make a distinction between a real man and a good man.

A real man is what you see in our culture today.

The man who's in the gym, he's standing in front of the mirror adoring all his biceps.

Or these rugged commercials that we see men being strong and being brutish.

If you ask a young teenager or a young boy, they want to be a real man.

They want to be this type person, whatever that is in their mind.

But then they have a good man.

A good man looks like Galatians 5, where we see the fruit of the Spirit.

Jesus was a good man.

And so they do not make that distinction.

They just see these brutish men who overpower people and do unkind and harsh things.

And there's some legitimacy to the complaint, but that's the trick of the devil there.

They take something that's legitimate and then they cast it over the entire category of masculinity, which is not true.

There are a lot of good men, and these men understand what it means to be a man according to the Bible.

And that is the model that we want to exalt.

But unfortunately, to be a man in today's age.

And it's more than that.

The effeminization, young boys, for example, where they're not allowed.

There's a book by Anthony Insulin titled Esalen, rather E S O L E N titled no Apologies how the World Was Built on the Backs of Men.

It is a fantastic book that talks about the differences between men and women.

And men were built differently.

They were built to do things differently.

But unfortunately, because of the fall post Genesis 3, 6, these men, many of us do bad things.

And of course, they've labeled that as toxic masculinity.

But it does not mean that you tear down the entire category, because there is a way to be A man.

There is a way to be masculine, but again, this is agenda driven.

Yeah.

Are you familiar with the book Wild at Heart by John Eldredge?

Yeah, I read it many years ago, probably 20 years ago, and heard him speak somewhere in Georgia, you know, during that time frame that.

That book was.

Was greatly popularized at that time.

He's written several others since then, and it's kind of become a cottage industry from him.

From him since that time.

But it was.

It was actually addressing or touching on something that.

That men sense that we're being marginalized and we're not allowed, you know, to be a man.

Now, unfortunately, there have been some bad presentation.

There's been some bad reactions to that.

Mark Driscoll would be one to where we're just going to be this abrasive, loud person that's in the real man category, that's not in the good man category that Nancy Percy was talking about.

So even in some of our reactions to what is going on in the culture, we have responded badly.

Thankfully, the church has made a correction in many of those things, or particularly with Mark Driscoll and a few others who were trying to.

This bravado thing.

It's really just another iteration of the real man that we see in our culture.

But it's within the Christian church, unfortunately.

Yeah.

Because I had.

I was an assistant pastor in the Bronx when I first came into the city, coming out of the suburbs, and I was under this other pastor, and I would do everything he asked me to do.

Vacuum, clean the toilets.

One time, went on a missions trip, and he asked me to scrub his shoes of mud.

And I. I found a toothbrush and I scrubbed his.

I mean, I.

Everything he asked me to do, I would do it.

And, you know, I was like being like, worn down, and it was just submission, submission, submission.

And I read this book, Wild at Heart, and then I walked away saying, you know, I'm just gonna pull myself up on my bootstraps and talk back and.

And stand up and be a man.

Because I. I felt basically saying you have to be like a Christian Rambo or be like a Christian gladiator.

And so I. I think even though it was good in one sense to.

To stand up as a man, I feel like it just perpetuated doing it out of a prideful hearts instead of being a good man as you described, and doing it like Jesus, being forthright, but yet still having the character of the humility of Christ, you know, about me.

And so I. I've been under men who I don't think modeled that biblical manhood.

Well and now I've been pastoring a church also in Queens at Grace Baptist with Pastor Peter Nicotra.

I don't know if you know him, he's friends with Ed Moore and he, he's, he's just a real biblical man.

And so it's been great to get to glean from what a biblical man looks like because if you, if something is trying to attack the problem, it has the label Christian on it, but it has sort of the, the wrong discipleship given to it and you apply that, you still had to put the wrong answer.

And that's where I was at the time, but thank God I'm not there at this time.

Yeah, I appreciate you saying that.

And, and for more transparency now, I didn't know where you were going with Wild and Heart and it's, I wasn't going to get in an argument here.

I want to serve you, but I can't stand the book.

Me neither.

It was a wrong correction and when we heard him speak in Georgia, etc.

It's one of these integrated books that you'll see in Christianity where they integrate secular ideas with Christian language.

5 love languages 1 boundaries.

Boundaries actually is an entirely secular book.

I mean it has nothing to do with God really, but it comes into our culture.

Wild at Heart was one of them.

But what it did is it resonated, it spoke to a lot of people, but it was off and it was really more in this rough and tough and Driscoll and many others, Sovereign grace ministries actually is another, which is what I was a part of is the heavy handed authoritative ministry that actually imploded back around 2012.

But we planted a sovereign grace church and so I have a good bit of familiarity with it.

But once, once we got beyond the brochure and began to look at the fine print, it's just an authoritarian church that's similar to what you're talking about here.

But it still is in, still in that vein of Wild at Heart or you know, Driscoll Real man.

And it's really missing.

And again, I'm not talking about effeminate when I, when I talk about getting the bowl and the basin and the towel and washing feet and Jesus wept.

I'm not talking about there's no courage, there's no backbone.

I'm not saying that at all.

But actually it's a fuller picture of what a man looks like.

It's a complete picture rather than this, I'll date myself here, but this John Wayne image over here and anybody under 50 might not even know who I'm talking about.

But Rambo or Jason, what's his name, Stratum, the new Rambo, who's made a lot of movies now.

But anyway, that's the image that these teenagers are seeing, and this is the image that they're embodying.

And the culture is looking at that, and they're making an accurate assessment.

But unfortunately, everybody is like that.

And that's what I like about what Nancy has done, is she's actually distinguished that group.

That is toxic masculinity.

But that's not what the Bible teaches at all, that there's another person here, and she categorizes him as a good man.

I. I would say the fruit of the spirit gives you a good template of what that man looks like.

Amen.

Amen.

Yeah, yeah.

And.

And.

And like you said before, you.

You had mentioned the.

The social justice movement.

They.

They took something, you know, that black lives do matter.

People matter.

And then they created these categories of the oppressed and the oppressor.

And so the.

The enemy is very crafty.

He.

He.

He mixes truth with lies, and he doesn't just come out right.

And it's not like the whole thing is a lie, you know, and that's why it's so important that we're anchored and rooted and grounded in God's word, because God's word has categories as well.

The saved and the unsaved, the righteous and the unrighteous.

And so why do we need to use the world's ca when God already has categories and his are eternal and his are true and they're unchanging?

Right.

He's an angel of light, and there's a lot to that.

There is some appeal.

There is pleasure in sin for a season.

And we have to be deceived, and we're deceived by subtlety.

If it was truly black and white, I mean, if he had a red suit and horns and a pitchfork and all of that, it would be too easy to see.

But the subtlety of Satan, including his wordsmithing, there is this.

Just this subtle deceit that you might not.

The undiscerning eye would not pick up on.

And then you end up buying the whole thing, only to realize later, and fortunately, even much of our culture is now realizing later that some women will lie and some men are good.

Right, Right.

Yeah.

Because even working in the public school system, you know, as.

As a Christian, when these issues come up and I ask questions and ask for, well, can you define this?

Those Questions are never even asked.

So when I teach health class, I tell them there's a difference between education and indoctrination.

And I s. And, and I put that on one of my tests.

What's the difference between education and indoctrination?

I said indoctrination is telling you what you must think and education is teaching you how to think.

So I would place, you know, are you for, you know, what is abortion?

Are you for and against it?

You know, what is the pro life message?

What is the pro abortion message?

And have the students grapple it out with one another and asking, you know, well, what, what is growing inside the mother?

And a lot of the classes and things, they're, they're not even being challenged to define, they're just being.

I don't know if this is a term.

I don't think I created it, but I call it a cultural parrot.

So they're just parroting whatever the culture tells them to.

Is that a term already out there?

Yeah.

Ecosystem.

Okay.

Echo chamber.

Yeah, I'm sorry, you're right, Echo chamber.

All of those, those euphemisms that are communicating an idea.

And some of it is ignorance, of course, and some of it's agenda driven.

A lot of it is a fear of man, honestly, because in that teenage stage, they're very self aware, their bodies are changing.

They want to be hooked into the right crowd.

They don't want to be rejected or made fun of or shamed or et cetera.

And, and so there's a lot of people that are just going with the crowd and it takes a lot of courage.

I mean, imagine a 15 year old standing up in a public school and saying, you know, I believe in God or I believe that there's two genders or you know, those types of things.

I mean, that would be such an anomaly.

I would not have done that when I was 15 years old.

And also they do not see the weight of, of these problems.

They, they won't really understand the full weight of these problems, you know, until they're much older.

That's why, you know, so many are Democrats up to a point.

And then as they get married, have children, have their own homes and so forth, they become Republican, which is, which is a common, it's a common transition that they make.

Statistically, it's a common transition because, you know, when you're 20, let's, let's help the world.

And.

Yeah, I mean, he's got billions of dollars.

Why not, you know, send it over here?

That makes sense to me.

You know, I have no skin in the game.

And we think that simplistically.

But then when you start as our children grew older and now they're out of the home and it's like, man, they're taking these tax, I'm working, you know, to make all this money and they're, they're taking, why are they taking it away?

Right.

Welcome to adulthood.

And so now they're not that they ever had that type of progressive or liberal mindset.

They never did, but they understand the concept here.

And as people get older, then they see.

And we all had this as well.

I mean, when we were younger, one, we were omniscient and so we had all these ideals.

But reality slaps you in the face as you get older.

And so you begin to evolve, you begin to change in your understanding whether you're a Christian or not.

And so these kids, they're very pliable.

And of course the culture understands that.

And so these school systems become indoctrination systems, as you say, because they have a ready made audience that really, you know, like at the end of the book of Jonah that you mentioned in the last show, they know neither their left hand from their right.

And so there is a, an audience that is ready to receive.

And that's why it's so important that we're communicating truth to them, not this agenda driven indoctrination.

Yeah, because when, when I was speaking about, you know, equity and equality, because of course my school is in Harlem.

And so, you know, BLM is something that's, you know, championed among us, you know, among the culture that I'm in.

But then when I kind of break it down and I say, well, do you believe everyone is equal?

They said, well, yes.

I said, do you mean equal in value or equal in economics and gifting and talents and athletic ability and artistic ability?

Like, that question is not even asked.

And so, you know, I, I told them I believe everyone is equal in value, that we're all created in God's image.

But I said, and I pointed to one kid, I said, well, you're, you're, you're an engineering.

I said, you have a mind that I don't have.

And this person, you, you're an artist.

I can't draw like you, and there's things that I could do that you can't do.

And so are we all equal in all that we can do?

And, and they all agreed that we were not.

And I said, how about this?

Let's say you get a hundred on the test, I take your hundred And I spread it out among everyone else who failed.

And so no, Everybody gets a 65.

And the girl that I said got 100.

That's not fair.

And I said, well, that's the, that's, that's the BLM movement.

That's what, that's what the agenda is.

That's what people are buying into.

And so when you bring it down to their level, it's almost like they quickly see the, this doesn't work.

It is, it's unjust, trying to push what they say is justice.

And it's completely unfair because we are made in God's image and we do have the same value.

But we all do think.

I mean, if everybody fixed the brain, who's going to fix the car?

So.

Right.

I, I appreciate, you know, I'm listening to that.

I'm thinking, one, your job is harder than mine.

Two, I'm glad that you and a lot of others like you are there.

Three, I'm wondering how you keep your job.

And then maybe going back to number two, people have to be there because those kids are ready to be taught.

They're ready.

So it's who is going to be the teacher, who is going to be the instructor.

And unfortunately, there's more of them than they are of us.

And so I just appreciate that you're there because you can communicate in such a way that kids can understand because they're no different from us as far as logic and rash and being rational.

But being able to communicate at their level where they can make these kinds of comparisons and understanding is actually outstanding.

So I'm glad you do what you do.

It just seems like, I mean, the question to me would be how do you keep from being discouraged as it's just wave after wave, year after year, of basically another version of the same thing.

Yeah, well, I, I mean, back to what, what you shared in the last episode.

You have to know who you are in Christ.

You have to know why you're here on this planet.

So, you know, we're here to exemplify the Lord Jesus.

And so, you know, like these students, I mean, they're, they're people like everyone else and they all need Christ.

And, and they, I think that they have a sense of those who actually care about them and, and teachers that are just there for the paycheck.

And so I try to get into the lives of my students beyond the phys ed class or the martial arts class and find out what's going on in their lives and try to, and in any way possible help them in their lives and hear from them when they have problems in their homes and things like that, and when they know you care about them.

Like you mentioned, the relationship, the, the bridge building, they share things with you and they confide in you, and they look for your.

Your guidance and they look for wisdom for you.

And so that's been helpful.

We had a, A girl in our.

Who goes to our school.

Unfortunately, she got murdered in her apartment by her boyfriend.

And so we had a vigil for her, and the principal asked me to address the students and to pray.

And so I've had opportunities to do such things.

And, you know, I just try to walk a very wise line because I don't want to indoctrinate kids.

I want to educate them, and I want them to be able to think from what they're being told they must think to how they can weigh things out and look from various perspectives before they jump on this bandwagon or that bandwagon.

And so I've been doing this for 20 years, and, and I've been asked to pray at different events and to.

To address students on the issues of suicide.

One time they asked me to address the entire senior body on why students should not commit suicide.

And they didn't give me any instruction.

So I just, I just shared out of my worldview.

And so I love.

I, you know, I, I genuinely care about the students.

I want the best for them.

What.

One of the reasons I teach martial arts is because I want students to be able to even physically protect themselves.

And I've had several students, especially girls, who were able to protect themselves in the streets of New York City as they were attacked.

You know, when we talk about toxic masculinity by, by very ungodly men that try to overpower them, and they were able to get out of those situations by learning from, from myself.

I, I hope I can put myself in the category of a good man.

Even though I, I would grapple with the Apostle Paul as being the chief of sinners as well.

Well, a couple things.

One, how old was the young girl who was murdered?

16 years old.

Okay.

Yeah.

That's.

That's unbelievable.

Yes.

Yeah.

The.

Well, as far as the chief sitter seat, I mean, Paul died and he left a vacancy, and I, I actually.

You feel that seat?

I, I did.

That's, that's, that's my, that's my chair.

I'm sitting in it right now.

Sitting in there.

See what it looks like.

If you want to see what the foremost center seat looks like, I can Roll out the camera and let you see it.

There's something that you were saying there that was, it was imitating the gospel in Romans 8, 31.

You know, Paul says, if God is for you, who can be against you?

Yes.

And the way that we talk about it within our ministry, it's the, for me aspect of the gospel in context of who he was talking to.

They were being murdered, they were being crucified, slaughtered, etc.

And so God was, Paul was speaking into that actual literal context and wanting to encourage them in a horrendous life that they were living in the moment and just let them know that God is for you to help them.

Well, we can imitate that for me aspect.

And so as you imitate the gospel in New York, as these kids are experiencing chaos, that honestly most of us do not know, you know, outside of big cities, L.A. philadelphia, Chicago, etc.

Most of the America, for example, we don't quite understand what you see, Ishmael, what y' all see on a day to day basis.

And when those kids see you imitating the gospel just that way, Mr. Phil says, or whatever they call you, he, they feel that you're for me.

And that's really a powerful thing because they really don't have anybody that's for them.

And so that's a precursor to the gospel.

I mean, he's for me.

And so now some of them want to listen.

And I know you have stories and they do listen, and then you tell them about him, who is really for you, who gave his life for you, but you're imitating that, what we call that for me aspect of the gospel, which is a powerful way of imitating Christ in people's lives.

Yeah, I mean, a lot of kids find out that I'm a pastor and they, they're interested in the lives of teachers beyond the classroom.

Like if they find out you're, you're, you play a sport or you have a, you know, you play an instrument, like they're interested.

And so they, you know, they say, well, you know, what do you teach about?

And you know, do you have a podcast?

And so they're, they're, they're interested.

And so I just, you know, I just respond to them as such.

I remember I had one student, he cursed at me, I can't tell you how many numbers of times.

And then he came to me one day with an ace bandage and he tell me, you know, that he sprained his ankle and would I help him.

So I brought him in my martial arts room.

I sat him down, and so I helped him, you know, and, you know, wrapped it up and was nice and snug.

And then he said, will you hold my book bag for the rest of the day?

I said, well, that I won't do, because I don't want to be responsible for your book bag.

But you had it.

You had a need, and I want to help you with your need.

So in those ways, even, you know, a kid who's been so vile against me, and yet trying to minister to him in such a way, and then pretty much the next day, he was back to cursing at me.

But, yeah, that's the interplay between a real man and a good man.

He's acting the part of a real man.

But when it came time to where I needed help, he would not go to a real man.

Right.

He would go to a good man, which means he intuitively understands the difference.

And he knew that you would bring care to him, you wouldn't blow him off, that you would help him through this crisis.

But because he doesn't know any other way to live, he goes back to being this facade, which is, as you know, that's not who he really is.

That's the presentation that he pushes out into the public space.

That's part of his survival skills.

And so he comes across this way, which is really nothing, but there's a fearful little boy behind this facade that he's presenting out here as a real man.

But it's interesting that he would take this facade down and go over here and talk to a good man, because I need help in this moment.

Yeah.

When I preached on Jonah, I spoke about how when they were in the storm, every man was calling out to their God.

And it's kind of like what people do.

They.

They glom onto just what they know and what they think will work.

And they try to be pragmatic, you know, throwing things overboard, getting rid of this, rowing harder in life or whatever that.

That may take place.

And.

And.

And they need a Jonah to stand up and.

And speak the truth, to bring calm to the storm, so to speak.

Right.

Yeah.

So, had a question.

So there's the good man and then there's the real man.

And most of us have been living that real man life, but there's a point that when Christ draws us, we start to become that good man.

So in the middle of the transition, what do you think is like the most struggle from going to a real man to a good man?

Like in my instance, it was faithfulness.

Because as a real Man, I was like, okay.

I was always looking for the next best thing.

I was always.

Not the commitment, because that's how what we were taught, oh, we don't commit, we look for the next best thing.

But now coming into a good man, it's about faithfulness.

So that was like one of my struggles.

But in hindsight, what do you think would be the struggle for nowadays when people have to transition to the real man, to the good man?

Yeah, I mean, it's a good, complex question.

Part of the answer is that if we live the life that you described, which is what I lived as well, what's the next best thing, my best life?

Now all the self help books, the positive mental attitude books, we're trying to build this kind of image to ourselves, about ourselves.

But then when we come to Christ, one of the biggest problems that we have is that we don't have a template.

We've never seen what this man looks like.

You know, my dad was not a template for this person here.

Only knew one type of man, only knew one type of template.

And so when I came here, I didn't know how to be.

We're using this language of good man from Percy's book, which is very good.

But basically being Christlike is what we're transforming into.

Being a Christocentric man, I had nobody to lead me.

And so one of the biggest things is having, as I like to say, and I didn't coin this expression, but every Timothy needs a Paul that we need a Paul in our lives to help us to build out this template so that we can see it in real time.

And I know the best mentors in my life have, have been that person.

So that I can see in real time and space, in real context of what it means, how to respond, how to be gracious, how to be kind, how to be humble, how to serve, etc.

One of the other struggles is fear.

Being honest, you know, about ourselves.

Everybody has a representative of themselves.

It's like a PR person.

It is a carefully edited version of ourselves that we push out into public space.

And we want people to fall in love with that person.

This is fig leaves.

When Adam fell in the Garden of Eden, he began to cover his shame.

We men, women too, but we're speaking about men here.

Men have this internal shame that they carry.

And so we build this image which is really, again, it's just a representation of ourselves.

It's our PR person.

If you go to any church meeting on Sunday morning, it's really just a bunch of Representatives talking to each other.

Hi.

I represent Rick Thomas.

And, man, I had a great week this week.

And look at my truck.

And this is my career, and this is the job that I have.

That's my PR person.

But behind that public image that I'm pushing out there is a person who struggles with fear and anger and shame and unforgiveness and on and on.

I mean, I am the foremost sinner, so I can go all night, but there's.

There's a long list here.

And so fear becomes our kryptonite.

And what I try to encourage people, Men to do is just put a pin in our representative and like a helium balloon, just let it go.

And then let's just talk about how we really struggle, what is really going on in our lives.

On Sunday morning, when you meet a guy and say, how you doing?

He says, fine.

My friend told me one time, you know what fine stands for?

It's an acronym.

Feelings inside, never expressed.

And so it's just the way that we talk.

And so when I talk to people, I say, how you doing, Ishmael?

You say, I'm doing fine.

Great.

Now we got that out of the way.

All right, so let's tell me what's really going on in your life right now.

That we've moved beyond the first question, because we don't live that way normally.

And there's trust issues.

There's our own cynicism.

There's church hurt.

I mean, the list is very long.

And so fear becomes a major player of letting go of that and becoming this person that is humble and transparent and honest and.

And wants to have conversation.

The word that we're talking about here is koinonia.

Yes.

That we're communicating at a deeper level in our lives now.

When men began to communicate at this level that the Bible, the Greek word is koinonia.

When we begin to communicate at this level, then transformation really begins to happen.

But what I find so much in biblical counseling is that there's a level of deception and dishonesty.

And I don't mean that as harsh as it could sound, but there's a inhibition.

Can I trust you again?

Another one of my favorite theologians is Jack Nicholson, who said, you can't handle the truth.

And so the question that I'm asking, can you handle my truth?

Can we have this conversation?

Can you steward the things that I want to share with you?

And so, again, but.

But as men began to break through these barriers and get behind the fig leaves and start having these more humble, transparent conversations, then we begin to evolve or transform would be the Bible word into this image of biblical masculinity.

Yeah, because it seems like men when they get into a room together, everything is focused on the image.

And I guess the fig leaves.

Men identify by what they do.

So if somebody says, well, I'm a janitor, Another person says, well, I'm a lawyer.

And the person says, I'm a doctor.

And a person says, well, I will work on a golf course.

And men start to size each other up based on what they do.

And, you know, and the, the scriptures focus on who we are, especially who we are in Christ.

And so God loves his.

His people, he loves his church.

And so at the end of the day, I mean, what does it matter if you're a doctor or a lawyer?

In one sense, yes, it's good that you're helping people.

That is a positive thing.

And we appreciate doctors and lawyers.

I mean, I, I had hip surgery and I greatly appreciate the doctor that worked on me.

But we need the issues internally dealt with that we might become more like Christ.

And so a lot of men seem to hide behind the fig leaves of their identity and their jobs.

And they don't focus even men in the church as much on their identity with Christ, on their identity as a husband or as a father or as a brother, you know, in the Lord.

And so it to, to let some of those, to let the guard down and to have some transparency, I think is something that, that most men don't do and perhaps won't do.

But I think even as pastors, we have to encourage and even perhaps model how to do that.

Do you have any advice in that area?

Yeah, there's a lot there.

I mean, I was feeling sorry for the janitor and the guy that works on the golf course.

I mean, I imagine those two, they go to this side of the room and the doctor and lawyer go to this side of the room.

Because if we're just focusing on our career identity, obviously that's going to be a problem.

But there's something inside of that.

I mean, obviously, like the second question that two men will ask.

The first question, hi, my name is Rick.

What is yours?

And the second question is, what do you do?

This is.

It's a common question.

It's a great question.

And there's really nothing wrong with it in this sense.

That's who Adam is.

God made Adam to create.

God made Adam in his image.

God made Adam to do things.

And so men are wired to, to do.

Yes, I referenced in one of these Episodes that we have here.

I don't know which one, but I referenced Anthony Esalen's book, no Apologies how the World Was Built on the Backs of Men.

And he said that if you throw a ball out into the yard and there's just women on the porch, there is no way they would ever come up with football, baseball, basketball.

It would never occur to them.

But you throw a ball out in a yard with a bunch of boys on the porch, they're coming off that porch, they're going to kick that ball, they're going to jump on each other, they're going to wrestle, they'll get in fights, and eventually they will develop a game like football, baseball, basketball, because that's the way God made them to do.

And so we're made in the image of God.

Now, obviously, what has happened, now this gets more into what you're saying post Genesis 3:6, then what we do becomes our identity.

And so the nuance here is that we don't throw our creativeness out, what we do out, because we are to provide, we are to protect, we are to go out, and we are to do things.

And that is a huge part of what it means to be a man now, the caution because of fallenness, the thing that we do becomes our identity and not Christ.

And so both of those things are absolutely essential.

My identity is in Christ, not what I do.

However, I need to be doing, I need to be creating.

I need to find that niche, that place where my gifting and my career come together.

The first time that I was ever in New York, in Queens, it was Elmhurst, actually, not Jackson Heights.

We were talking off camera a while ago where I would hang.

I hung mostly.

It was All Nations Bible Baptist Church.

And they met at the American Legion Hall.

It wasn't what you'd call a church building.

It was actually really great.

We'd come in on Sunday morning and clean up the puke and throw all the beer cans in the trash, sit out the metal chairs.

And we would have church at the American Legion hall, but it was in Elmhurst.

And one of the first people that I've ever met, his name was Hector Enriquez.

He's still living today in Jackson Heights.

But I said, hey, you know, my name is Rick.

He said, my name's Hector.

He knew what we did.

We were up there to evangelize.

I said, hey, man, what do you do?

I scrub floors for the glory of God.

And I thought, well, I actually wanted to melt in the floor because I was more arrogant, or I was arrogant and he was not.

I was self righteous.

He was not.

I found my identity and what I did, he did not.

He provided and still does.

He provides for his family.

He works heartedly unto the Lord.

He is doing what God has called him to do.

But his identity is fully ensconced in Christ.

But unfortunately, within the church and especially in our culture, what we do has taken on a fallen meaning.

However, I'll just go back to reiterate.

We cannot just throw that completely out.

We just have to have a biblical perspective on it.

Because we men need to get out of the basement.

We need to stop playing video games.

We need to go and we need to do something.

We need to be creators.

We need to protect our families and provide for our families.

That's not all what it means to be a man, but that is a huge part of it.

But unfortunately, because of the materialism of our culture, because of how our culture has gone the last 200 years here in America, what we do has taken on a sinful, fallen identity.

Yes.

So it sounds like what we do should stem out of who we are in Christ, and then what we do should be done with the motive for the glory of God and not even for the glory of self.

So as a preacher, instead of me hearing, well, that was a great sermon, I would rather hear that was a great God that you preached about this morning.

And this is what God showed me and what God taught me.

Because that the, the, the, the first one, you know, that, that could stroke my own ego as far as, you know, how the message was preached or whatever the illustrations.

But I really want, you know, transformation to take people, you know, to take place in people's lives.

Not for someone to tell me that the sermon, that they like the sermon or not, because maybe next week they don't like the sermon.

But yet in both sermons, whether they liked it or not, God could still be by the Holy Spirit, doing a work in their hearts and in their lives.

Yeah, back in my early days, you know, 40 years ago, I preached in a nursing home.

And when I remember one Saturday when I finished, this elderly lady came up, she said, pastor Thomas, I wasn't a pastor, but you know, she's been in the Baptist church for a hundred years and she was in a nursing home now.

She said, pastor Thomas, I believe that's the best sermon that I've ever heard in my life.

And I thought, wow, that's really, really good.

And then the next Saturday, she came up to me after we'd finished, she said, pastor Thomas, I Believe that's the best sermon I've heard in my entire life.

And I thought, well, yeah, I did work a little harder this week, so I think it was better, too.

And then the third Saturday, she came up to me, she said, pastor Thomas, I believe that's the best sermon I've heard in my entire life.

And so then I began to realize this lady has got dementia.

And she, she, she says that every Saturday.

And my sermons really suck.

But she didn't.

I mean, to her, they were really great.

I, I would say, though, Phil, if.

If someone came up and said, you know, I appreciate the sermon, or thank you, Rick, for the counseling or whatever, I would appreciate that and affirm that and acknowledge that.

Because what I'm acknowledging is the grace of God in my life.

And I would say, and I do say thank you very much.

It's very kind of you.

I just appreciate God's grace that he would just give me the insight so I can do two things at the same time.

I don't want to dismiss her gratitude because what she's actually pointing to is the grace of God in your life.

And so, yes, of course, we have to take our thoughts captive and not get all pumped up about it.

But it's a kindness of God for someone to come and say thank you for something, because again, I am sitting in the chief center seat.

And for them to acknowledge that the grace of God is active in my life.

I want to honor that.

And then, of course, not dismiss it or marginalize it, but then also, you know, give glory to God.

But something you were saying earlier, There are four universal problems in life, and that's it.

There's only four problems.

There's a theological problem.

There's a psychological problem.

There's a sociological problem.

There's an ecological problem.

And what that means is theological.

I have a problem with God.

Psychological, I have a problem with myself.

Sociological.

I have a problem with others.

And then ecological.

I have a problem living in this world.

And so all problems in life fit within these four buckets.

But typically, the way people resolve these problems is in reverse order.

Where do I work?

What kind of job should I have?

How do I live in this world?

And they haven't resolved their problem with God, with self, or with others.

Now, what happens is, if you begin to resolve your problem with God, meaning first you become born again, now you start changing internally, and you start understanding yourself, you begin to understand how you're interacting and reacting to life.

Then you begin to understand people, and then you naturally find the place where you should be in life.

But it's as you're working on these problems in this order here.

Unfortunately, most people just start with, what do I want to be when I grow up?

And they're not resolving their relationship with God.

They have internal tensions, they have a lot of soul noise, they don't play well with others.

And then they go get a job and they really focus on the job thing.

Yes.

And that's what's emphasized.

And that's what happened to me.

You know, I worked in a machine shop before I was a Christian.

And then God regenerated me.

I began to understand myself and the gifting that God had given me, began to play better with others and then found myself doing something entirely different than working in a machine shop.

But it began by first solving problem number one.

But as we do that and then what we supposed to be and where we're supposed to be and what we're supposed to be doing, it kind of unfolds before you as we're working on these problems in the right sequential order.

Amen.

Amen.

Amen.

Well, praise God.

This has been just an amazing time with you.

We thank you so much for your ministry.

We thank you so much for your wise words and your counsel.

Would you tell us the name of your ministry and your website again so that people can go get more information?

Yeah.

Our ministry is Life over Coffee.

The street address is lifeovercoffee.com and that will take you right to our coffee shop.

It is a full blown sanctification center that has thousands and thousands of resources on all things discipleship.

We brand it as coffee, but what we do is sanctification discipleship.

We help Christians to grow in what it means to be a man, but it speaks to all other things, men, women, marriages, parents and teenagers, young people as well.

But it's lifeovercoffee.com and what that means is, is that any two people can come together and do life over a cup of coffee.

Our resources are free.

And so you can go to it right now and you'll find thousands of resources.

Hit the search feature, type in any word or phrase and something will pop up that you're looking for.

And I would hope that God would use that to help you.

And if somebody wanted to be trained in leadership to become a counselor, you have training on your website as well, is that correct?

Yeah.

If you look in the nav, the navigation bar across the top, you'll see one of the buttons says courses.

You would click on it.

We have some courses.

There's a course on the fear of Man.

A particular topic, Overcoming insecurity, peer pressure, codependency, what the world would call it, the Bible would call it Fear of Man.

But we also have an online training course where we train Christians to become more effective disciple makers or what some people call Biblical counseling.

That's what we train them.

It's a self paced, it's all online.

You don't have to go anywhere.

But all that information is@lifeovercoffee.com there's also a Get in Touch feature in the footer on every page of the website and so if someone had a question they could just type in that question.

There's some free books in our store as well that you can download.

I just put one up two days ago.

It's titled do youo Like Me Breaking the Bondage of People Pleasing.

That's a free book.

There's several others.

Anybody could have it, just download it and you know, take advantage of it.

We also have paperback books as well.

There's a few right behind me on this shelf you can somewhat see.

But I have 29 books all together and so there's more than articles.

There's a lot of books there as well.

Podcast, videos, infographics, mind maps, on and on and on and on.

It's all there atlifeovercoffee copy.com Praise God.

There are some just incredible things on there.

I've used some of the things as well.

I've used it in preaching and teaching for counseling others.

I've been counseled by them.

And so thank you for all that you do for your ministry and thank you for joining us on this episode of Stop and Think About a podcast.

And for all those of you that are listening, thank you as well for taking this time to stop and think about it.

If you would like to contact us, please email us@stopandthinkcrewmail.com you can also visit our website at www.stopandthinkpodcast.com.

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