1 00:00:04,449 --> 00:00:07,199 Jen: Welcome to the So That's Why podcast, where we unpack the 2 00:00:07,199 --> 00:00:09,129 science behind everyday questions. 3 00:00:09,159 --> 00:00:09,819 I'm Jen. 4 00:00:09,999 --> 00:00:10,579 Chris: I'm Chris. 5 00:00:11,199 --> 00:00:11,899 Matt: And I'm Matt. 6 00:00:12,329 --> 00:00:17,489 Jen: Okay, so today we are answering the question: why do we cry when we're sad? 7 00:00:17,829 --> 00:00:21,460 So researchers track real crying episodes. 8 00:00:21,499 --> 00:00:25,249 When they track it, they find one emotional thread running 9 00:00:25,249 --> 00:00:26,979 through them more than any other. 10 00:00:26,979 --> 00:00:30,349 So give me some of the ideas of the most likely guesses. 11 00:00:30,679 --> 00:00:31,309 Matt: Sadness. 12 00:00:31,329 --> 00:00:34,839 It's in the title, Jen, uh, but it does feel a little bit like a trap 13 00:00:34,839 --> 00:00:36,379 that I've just walked straight into. 14 00:00:37,210 --> 00:00:37,919 Chris: Yep, similar. 15 00:00:37,980 --> 00:00:39,109 It's gotta be sadness, right? 16 00:00:39,109 --> 00:00:39,669 Or loss. 17 00:00:39,699 --> 00:00:43,270 Something with proper weight behind it, like, um, when Nemo 18 00:00:43,270 --> 00:00:44,609 loses his parents in Finding Nemo. 19 00:00:44,749 --> 00:00:47,109 Matt: Oh, that is- Oh … proper sad. 20 00:00:47,349 --> 00:00:47,949 Jen: Yeah. 21 00:00:49,089 --> 00:00:50,930 But they're both wrong. 22 00:00:51,129 --> 00:00:51,929 Chris: Surely not, though. 23 00:00:51,999 --> 00:00:53,140 I mean, Nemo- Nemo's 24 00:00:53,140 --> 00:00:53,661 Jen: not wrong … he can't, no. 25 00:00:53,661 --> 00:00:56,349 And this is exactly why we're doing, answering this question. 26 00:00:56,599 --> 00:01:03,459 So the most common thread, um, isn't sadness, it's powerlessness. 27 00:01:03,579 --> 00:01:06,909 Matt: Which is not what I expected, actually- Mm … as 28 00:01:06,909 --> 00:01:07,580 the answer, if I'm honest. 29 00:01:07,580 --> 00:01:09,719 Chris: No, and it kind of reframes the question, doesn't it? 30 00:01:10,109 --> 00:01:16,420 Um, so today, if you agree, I think we should dive into what sets a cry off- 31 00:01:16,499 --> 00:01:16,819 Jen: Mm 32 00:01:17,069 --> 00:01:21,189 … Chris: the circuit that produces it, what's in tears, and whether crying 33 00:01:21,449 --> 00:01:22,579 actually makes you feel better. 34 00:01:23,369 --> 00:01:23,740 Jen: Okay. 35 00:01:23,740 --> 00:01:29,039 So an honesty note, emotional crying has only really got, like, serious scientific 36 00:01:29,059 --> 00:01:30,490 evidence in the last few decades. 37 00:01:30,499 --> 00:01:35,639 So some of this is solid and some genuinely isn't, but we'll say which. 38 00:01:35,709 --> 00:01:35,739 And 39 00:01:36,349 --> 00:01:37,520 Matt: no doubt you will, Jen. 40 00:01:39,459 --> 00:01:40,989 But let's go back to powerlessness. 41 00:01:41,279 --> 00:01:42,470 Powerless, that's right, yeah. 42 00:01:42,859 --> 00:01:45,049 Uh, is sadness not involved at all? 43 00:01:45,359 --> 00:01:48,569 Jen: Almost always, but rarely on its own. 44 00:01:48,789 --> 00:01:53,999 So it turns up with, like, blended with anger, fear, frustration, 45 00:01:54,029 --> 00:01:58,809 or disappointment, and the common denominator underneath it is not 46 00:01:58,809 --> 00:02:02,609 being able to do anything about the situation you're in about it. 47 00:02:03,119 --> 00:02:03,749 Chris: Yeah, that's right. 48 00:02:03,749 --> 00:02:08,320 And, um, there's one psychologist that puts it as the tipping point being the 49 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:14,500 moment that, um, psychological demands exceed your sensory effective threshold. 50 00:02:14,719 --> 00:02:19,240 So meaning that the emotion has outpaced whatever coping mechanism 51 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:21,119 you had available in the first place. 52 00:02:21,719 --> 00:02:22,259 Matt: Okay. 53 00:02:22,309 --> 00:02:27,880 So it isn't then about how bad the thing is, it's the gap, I guess, between that 54 00:02:28,219 --> 00:02:29,649 and what you've got left in the tank. 55 00:02:29,749 --> 00:02:33,539 Jen: So it looks that way, yeah, and the triggers people report 56 00:02:33,549 --> 00:02:35,239 are smaller than you'd assume. 57 00:02:35,239 --> 00:02:41,279 You know, loss and breakups, but also conflict, criticism, rejection, 58 00:02:41,339 --> 00:02:43,499 and minor personal failures. 59 00:02:44,129 --> 00:02:45,779 Chris: Yeah, which is, the interesting part, isn't it? 60 00:02:45,779 --> 00:02:50,019 Because if, um, asked hypothetically, people reach kinda straight for 61 00:02:50,149 --> 00:02:51,649 loss and bereavement and tragedy. 62 00:02:51,709 --> 00:02:52,039 Jen: Mm. 63 00:02:52,079 --> 00:02:55,889 Chris: But if you were to keep crying diaries… That's a great album 64 00:02:55,889 --> 00:02:56,709 name, actually, The Crying Diaries. 65 00:02:56,709 --> 00:02:56,979 Crying 66 00:02:56,979 --> 00:02:57,159 Diaries. 67 00:03:00,277 --> 00:03:01,567 It's like a Morris- it's like a Morrissey album- 68 00:03:01,567 --> 00:03:02,677 Matt: Yeah, it is … surely on the, the species. 69 00:03:02,677 --> 00:03:02,697 It is. 70 00:03:02,697 --> 00:03:03,067 Yeah, yeah. 71 00:03:03,107 --> 00:03:03,307 Um, yeah. 72 00:03:03,307 --> 00:03:03,797 Or The Cure. 73 00:03:03,807 --> 00:03:03,827 Yeah. 74 00:03:04,237 --> 00:03:08,297 Chris: If you were to keep crying diaries that, and you look back, 75 00:03:08,337 --> 00:03:09,457 the- they would say otherwise. 76 00:03:09,467 --> 00:03:11,337 Mm. They would say it's not always about the loss and bereavement. 77 00:03:11,337 --> 00:03:13,447 It's probably a lower part, and it's often something else. 78 00:03:13,737 --> 00:03:16,877 Matt: Minor personal failures, I think, is the standout phrase for me. 79 00:03:17,127 --> 00:03:20,877 But I can confirm the last time I cried was actually at my son's wedding. 80 00:03:21,677 --> 00:03:24,187 Jen: So yeah, so that's the other half because crying isn't 81 00:03:24,247 --> 00:03:26,177 only a negative emotion thing. 82 00:03:26,267 --> 00:03:31,907 People, like you Matt, and lots of us cry from joy, gratitude, love, relief, 83 00:03:32,287 --> 00:03:37,217 and watching someone do something selfless, and these tears have got a name. 84 00:03:37,417 --> 00:03:40,827 Researchers call those sentimental or moral tears. 85 00:03:41,237 --> 00:03:44,777 Chris: Yeah, so the wedding effect, it is a recognized scientific category. 86 00:03:44,777 --> 00:03:47,627 So I think we should definitely play the wedding video and see you kind 87 00:03:47,627 --> 00:03:49,507 of- … slowly sobbing away in the corner. 88 00:03:49,507 --> 00:03:50,767 Jen: And keep a crying diary. 89 00:03:50,827 --> 00:03:51,287 Chris: Absolutely, yeah. 90 00:03:51,387 --> 00:03:51,477 Absolutely. 91 00:03:51,887 --> 00:03:52,387 Matt: Writing in my 92 00:03:52,397 --> 00:03:53,347 crying diary at the wedding. 93 00:03:53,677 --> 00:03:56,807 Well, the good news for everybody, uh, 'cause you, you do not wanna see 94 00:03:56,807 --> 00:03:59,777 that, I was behind the video camera, so I was recording the wedding. 95 00:04:00,357 --> 00:04:01,187 Jen: I mean, I'm no better. 96 00:04:01,187 --> 00:04:05,037 I can well up at a park run watching a stranger finish their first 5K- … when 97 00:04:05,037 --> 00:04:06,437 they've graduated from couch to 5K. 98 00:04:07,937 --> 00:04:10,367 Chris: Yeah, I, I tend to cry at park runs, but it's normally 99 00:04:10,367 --> 00:04:11,138 before I've started doing one. 100 00:04:11,558 --> 00:04:13,297 That's a, that's a different story. 101 00:04:13,347 --> 00:04:13,507 Yeah. 102 00:04:14,197 --> 00:04:17,817 Um, and let's be honest, we've all kind of used the, the something in my 103 00:04:17,817 --> 00:04:21,047 eye excuse when, you know, th- things start setting us off, haven't we? 104 00:04:21,307 --> 00:04:23,837 Matt: We have, and I, I love the fact that nobody ever challenges 105 00:04:23,837 --> 00:04:26,867 it, which I think is possibly the kindest thing we do as a species. 106 00:04:27,157 --> 00:04:28,277 Jen: Yeah, definitely. 107 00:04:28,837 --> 00:04:32,428 Okay, so let's chat about what ha- actually happens in 108 00:04:32,437 --> 00:04:33,617 the body then when we cry. 109 00:04:33,897 --> 00:04:34,257 Chris: Okay. 110 00:04:34,257 --> 00:04:38,987 So it begins in the brain's limbic system, uh, which is responsible for 111 00:04:38,987 --> 00:04:44,097 processing em- emotions, and the amygdala helps determine how intense an emotion 112 00:04:44,097 --> 00:04:49,847 feels, uh, while the anterior cingulate cortex helps you recognize, make sense 113 00:04:49,847 --> 00:04:52,077 of, and respond to those feelings. 114 00:04:52,557 --> 00:04:52,897 Matt: Okay. 115 00:04:52,897 --> 00:04:56,717 So for, if I'm understanding this right, one part turns up the emotional 116 00:04:56,717 --> 00:05:01,547 intensity, and the other part figures out what you're actually feeling. 117 00:05:01,687 --> 00:05:03,577 Jen: Yeah, it's a good way to think about it. 118 00:05:03,577 --> 00:05:09,227 Um, and from there, the signal travels to the pons in the brainstem, and 119 00:05:09,237 --> 00:05:13,787 the pons activates the tear glands through a facial nerve, which is 120 00:05:13,787 --> 00:05:15,577 what causes the tears to flow. 121 00:05:16,137 --> 00:05:20,037 Chris: That's right, and at the same time, another region called the periaqueductal 122 00:05:20,048 --> 00:05:25,517 gray coordinates the physical expression of crying, so this controls the, um, 123 00:05:25,527 --> 00:05:30,317 the facial muscles and the vocalizations that produce the crying face and those 124 00:05:30,337 --> 00:05:31,827 characteristic sobbing so- sounds. 125 00:05:31,967 --> 00:05:35,459 It's not a, a Snapchat- filter that my kids always 126 00:05:37,519 --> 00:05:38,269 put on Make videos look like you're crying. 127 00:05:39,319 --> 00:05:39,769 Matt: Fair enough. 128 00:05:40,289 --> 00:05:42,599 Uh, I can't- I don't know about Snapchat, Chris, as I've- Well, 129 00:05:42,669 --> 00:05:43,129 Chris: me neither. 130 00:05:43,129 --> 00:05:44,359 It's probably completely the wrong platform. 131 00:05:46,579 --> 00:05:46,999 Jen: You know, I- 132 00:05:47,649 --> 00:05:47,739 Chris: I've got no idea. 133 00:05:47,739 --> 00:05:47,769 It sounds right. 134 00:05:47,769 --> 00:05:49,149 No idea what the youth of today use. 135 00:05:49,359 --> 00:05:51,029 Matt: No, no, uh, me either. 136 00:05:51,099 --> 00:05:52,309 Um, a long time. 137 00:05:52,489 --> 00:05:57,119 Anyway, so the face then, uh, and the noise aren't, uh, 138 00:05:57,129 --> 00:05:59,289 a side effect of the tears. 139 00:05:59,289 --> 00:06:02,039 They're driven separately, um, off the same event maybe. 140 00:06:02,139 --> 00:06:07,169 Jen: Yeah, they are, and the tears, um, come from the lacrimal glands, 141 00:06:07,229 --> 00:06:12,459 uh, above each eye, and there's three distinct, like, tear types 142 00:06:12,609 --> 00:06:16,169 Chris: Yeah, so basal tears, they keep the eye surface lubricated all 143 00:06:16,169 --> 00:06:20,679 day, whereas reflex tears respond to an irritant, which is basically the 144 00:06:20,959 --> 00:06:22,729 onion episode in a single sentence. 145 00:06:22,939 --> 00:06:25,129 Matt: Yeah, an episode that I'm still recovering from. 146 00:06:25,339 --> 00:06:27,369 Uh, the onions still keep winning the battle. 147 00:06:28,899 --> 00:06:33,209 Jen: And then you have emotional tears, and they are triggered by feeling, so 148 00:06:33,209 --> 00:06:38,459 it's the same glands, but a different trigger, and no rigorous evidence 149 00:06:38,459 --> 00:06:44,179 that any other species produces, like, the third kind, the emotional tears. 150 00:06:44,269 --> 00:06:45,239 Matt: So we're unique. 151 00:06:45,329 --> 00:06:46,379 Jen: We are unique. 152 00:06:46,469 --> 00:06:50,329 Matt: Okay, so what's happening then at, uh, in the eye when tears 153 00:06:50,339 --> 00:06:51,519 start running down your face? 154 00:06:51,889 --> 00:06:55,899 Chris: Yeah, so the glands produce fluid faster than the tear ducts can drain 155 00:06:55,899 --> 00:07:00,109 it, so the drainage is working fine, it's just been outpaced, so the surplus 156 00:07:00,149 --> 00:07:02,129 goes over the edge and down your face. 157 00:07:02,699 --> 00:07:06,469 Jen: So think about it like a sink with the tap on harder than 158 00:07:06,469 --> 00:07:07,789 the plug hole can cope with. 159 00:07:08,569 --> 00:07:10,429 Chris: Yeah, that's better than the way I put it, to be, to be fair. 160 00:07:11,409 --> 00:07:17,829 Um, and so the lacrimal glands are activated by acetylcholine and by 161 00:07:17,879 --> 00:07:22,599 vasoactive intestinal peptide, which is a signaling molecule with a very misleading 162 00:07:22,599 --> 00:07:26,609 name because it has absolutely nothing to do with the intestines or the stomach. 163 00:07:27,089 --> 00:07:31,249 Matt: That's good to know because the names, uh, they're not, all 164 00:07:31,249 --> 00:07:33,709 these words, Chris, just don't help in your explanation really. 165 00:07:34,209 --> 00:07:35,140 Jen: They're going in, Matt. 166 00:07:35,159 --> 00:07:37,499 They might just come out one day in a conversation. 167 00:07:37,499 --> 00:07:38,949 You'd be like, "Where did that come from?" 168 00:07:39,489 --> 00:07:39,839 Matt: Yeah. 169 00:07:40,869 --> 00:07:44,979 Jen: So the other part involves the autonomic nervous system, which has 170 00:07:44,979 --> 00:07:46,919 got two branches working together. 171 00:07:46,919 --> 00:07:52,489 So when crying begins, the sympathetic activity rises, so your heart 172 00:07:52,489 --> 00:07:57,479 rate increases, skin conductance changes, and the body shows that 173 00:07:57,479 --> 00:07:59,719 classic fight or flight pattern. 174 00:08:00,079 --> 00:08:02,169 Chris: It does, and then at the same time you've got the 175 00:08:02,369 --> 00:08:05,559 parasympathetic, um, activity. 176 00:08:05,569 --> 00:08:08,870 So this is the system involved in calming and recovery, and that 177 00:08:08,919 --> 00:08:13,240 initially decreases, then rises again as the crying episode comes to an end. 178 00:08:13,580 --> 00:08:17,739 And it's that rebound that may help explain the sense of relief that, 179 00:08:17,779 --> 00:08:21,659 or calmness that some people feel after a kind of crying episode. 180 00:08:21,719 --> 00:08:22,059 Jen: Mm. 181 00:08:22,199 --> 00:08:24,859 Matt: Okay, so the calm isn't at the start of the cry. 182 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:27,379 Maybe it's, uh, on the way out of one. 183 00:08:27,569 --> 00:08:31,419 Jen: Yeah, and that leads us to the next question: what are 184 00:08:31,499 --> 00:08:34,149 emotional tears actually made of? 185 00:08:34,719 --> 00:08:37,549 Um, and this is where we need to be careful about how 186 00:08:37,550 --> 00:08:39,590 confidently we frame the evidence. 187 00:08:39,929 --> 00:08:40,449 Chris: Yeah, we do. 188 00:08:40,449 --> 00:08:45,659 So some studies have reported higher levels of prolactin and 189 00:08:45,979 --> 00:08:50,769 adrenocorticotropic hormone, and these are two stress-related hormones, 190 00:08:51,309 --> 00:08:57,888 and alongside compounds like, um- Leucine enkephalin, uh, potassium and 191 00:08:57,948 --> 00:09:02,508 manganese in emotional tears compared to fa- uh, basal or reflex tears 192 00:09:04,528 --> 00:09:08,168 Matt: I have to say, are all these words you have just said not actually wanting 193 00:09:08,228 --> 00:09:10,028 to make you cry when you say them? 194 00:09:10,288 --> 00:09:12,348 Chris: I think if, if I've got the pronunciation right, I'll probably 195 00:09:12,649 --> 00:09:13,848 cry- … a few tears of joy. 196 00:09:14,028 --> 00:09:14,528 You never know. 197 00:09:15,389 --> 00:09:17,648 When I wa- when I watch it back, I've probably got none of them right. 198 00:09:18,848 --> 00:09:20,309 Yeah, you rehearse- Tend the tears will flow … over and over. 199 00:09:20,368 --> 00:09:20,928 Matt: Yeah, yeah. 200 00:09:21,528 --> 00:09:22,868 Chris: I need some more cue cards behind you. 201 00:09:22,889 --> 00:09:23,528 That, that'd be nice. 202 00:09:23,568 --> 00:09:24,028 Matt: Yeah, yeah. 203 00:09:24,368 --> 00:09:27,248 Jen: So the important thing you said is some studies. 204 00:09:27,258 --> 00:09:30,898 So these findings still need, you know, stronger replication. 205 00:09:30,898 --> 00:09:35,738 So they may turn out to be accurate, but we shouldn't treat them as settled fact. 206 00:09:35,838 --> 00:09:37,158 Chris: Yeah, and it's really important, isn't it? 207 00:09:37,158 --> 00:09:41,138 And it matters because those chemical findings are part of the foundation 208 00:09:41,138 --> 00:09:45,548 for one of the most popular ideas about crying, and that is that tears physically 209 00:09:45,548 --> 00:09:47,568 flush stress toxins out of the body. 210 00:09:47,898 --> 00:09:50,648 Matt: Yeah, and that's something I have definitely heard. 211 00:09:50,808 --> 00:09:54,588 Jen: Yeah, most of us have, and it's an appealing idea, isn't it, that 212 00:09:54,598 --> 00:09:59,938 a t- you know, tears can flush out stress toxins, but it hasn't stood up 213 00:09:59,938 --> 00:10:04,898 well under scientific scrutiny, and one of the influential early studies 214 00:10:04,908 --> 00:10:09,698 supporting it wasn't successfully repeated by later researchers. 215 00:10:10,088 --> 00:10:12,758 Matt: So if I feel better after a cry, it's not because I've 216 00:10:12,818 --> 00:10:17,128 emptied some kind of emotional toxin out of my bloodstream then? 217 00:10:17,842 --> 00:10:21,452 Chris: I mean, m- maybe not necessarily definitely that, but you know, you keep 218 00:10:21,452 --> 00:10:22,642 telling yourself- … it's all fine. 219 00:10:22,642 --> 00:10:22,992 Yeah. 220 00:10:22,992 --> 00:10:23,212 Yeah. 221 00:10:23,282 --> 00:10:25,152 Um, but there is real biology happening here. 222 00:10:25,322 --> 00:10:28,082 It's just not necessarily a detox process. 223 00:10:28,082 --> 00:10:32,052 So crying involves, uh, chemical signals linked to stress regulation 224 00:10:32,362 --> 00:10:37,372 and social connection, and it's, um, substances including oxytocin, 225 00:10:38,012 --> 00:10:43,057 there's vasopressin, and there are endogenous opioids like the enkephalins 226 00:10:43,057 --> 00:10:45,062 and prolactin I mentioned earlier. 227 00:10:45,692 --> 00:10:49,982 Jen: So the chemistry points at connection and stress, not detox, 228 00:10:50,202 --> 00:10:52,062 which turns out to be a bit of a theme. 229 00:10:52,752 --> 00:10:55,882 Matt: So the variation between people is enormous, though, isn't it? 230 00:10:55,922 --> 00:11:01,112 I mean, I know people who cry weekly, um, and I guess there's people 231 00:11:01,132 --> 00:11:02,842 that I've never actually seen cry. 232 00:11:02,842 --> 00:11:04,762 Like, my wife would say she's never seen me cry. 233 00:11:05,772 --> 00:11:07,432 Jen: No, 'cause you were behind the camera at the wedding. 234 00:11:07,452 --> 00:11:07,912 Matt: That's true. 235 00:11:08,692 --> 00:11:12,162 Jen: Yeah, the variation is enormous, and it's biological, 236 00:11:12,552 --> 00:11:15,712 psychological, and social all at once. 237 00:11:15,972 --> 00:11:21,132 So testosterone appears to raise the crying threshold, holding back 238 00:11:21,132 --> 00:11:25,562 the tears, while prolactin, which is higher in women, appears to lower it 239 00:11:26,782 --> 00:11:28,872 Chris: Yeah, can we just say if anyone else has got any footage 240 00:11:28,872 --> 00:11:29,752 from Matt Sutton's wedding? 241 00:11:31,832 --> 00:11:33,902 I, I just wanna see if anybody caught you. 242 00:11:33,902 --> 00:11:35,232 You know, just one angle of you sobbing- Yeah, yeah … into the camera. 243 00:11:35,252 --> 00:11:36,172 Matt: My wife would like to 244 00:11:36,172 --> 00:11:36,672 see it too, 245 00:11:36,892 --> 00:11:37,192 I'm sure. 246 00:11:38,482 --> 00:11:41,632 Chris: Um, so another thing is personality, and it, it 247 00:11:41,632 --> 00:11:43,042 comes into this a lot too. 248 00:11:43,062 --> 00:11:49,462 So, uh, people who are high in, uh, neuroticism or empathy, they cry more. 249 00:11:50,192 --> 00:11:54,942 Um, dismissively attached people cry less and suppress more, and securely attached 250 00:11:54,952 --> 00:11:56,522 people cry in a more regulated way. 251 00:11:56,552 --> 00:11:58,802 I guess none of this is particularly surprising, right? 252 00:11:58,802 --> 00:11:59,002 Matt: No. 253 00:11:59,112 --> 00:11:59,392 No. 254 00:11:59,392 --> 00:11:59,752 No. 255 00:11:59,752 --> 00:12:04,722 And I guess the same event doesn't mean the same thing or happen in 256 00:12:04,722 --> 00:12:06,452 the same way in two people, right? 257 00:12:06,452 --> 00:12:08,892 It's not necessarily that one's trying harder than the other. 258 00:12:08,992 --> 00:12:10,032 Jen: Yeah, not at all. 259 00:12:10,042 --> 00:12:14,182 Um, and the difference between genders is one of the most 260 00:12:14,182 --> 00:12:15,812 consistent worldwide as well. 261 00:12:15,812 --> 00:12:22,452 So women crying, um, they cry roughly two to four times more often than men. 262 00:12:22,722 --> 00:12:29,102 So there's one classic estimate puts it at, which I love this, 5.3 times a month 263 00:12:29,112 --> 00:12:32,432 for women against 1.3 times for men. 264 00:12:32,942 --> 00:12:35,822 Matt: I love that, the 5.3 and the 1.3. 265 00:12:35,822 --> 00:12:40,202 So there's people out there who sort of get .3 of the way through a cry, 30%, 266 00:12:40,522 --> 00:12:42,382 and they stop because the quota's filled. 267 00:12:42,512 --> 00:12:43,192 Jen: Yeah, that's enough. 268 00:12:43,192 --> 00:12:43,692 Stop now. 269 00:12:43,852 --> 00:12:44,982 Not a full cry today. 270 00:12:45,922 --> 00:12:46,612 Chris: Yeah, I'm fine. 271 00:12:46,612 --> 00:12:47,832 I'm still cry- I've got it under control. 272 00:12:47,832 --> 00:12:48,212 Don't worry. 273 00:12:48,212 --> 00:12:49,402 I'm just 30% of the way through. 274 00:12:49,402 --> 00:12:49,792 I'm fine. 275 00:12:50,962 --> 00:12:51,822 Matt: No, it doesn't, Chris. 276 00:12:51,822 --> 00:12:52,232 It doesn't. 277 00:12:52,242 --> 00:12:55,242 You can't, especially if you're watching Finding Nemo or E- 278 00:12:55,872 --> 00:12:55,902 or ET. 279 00:12:55,902 --> 00:12:58,132 Chris: If I'm watching Finding Nemo, that quota's going up- Yeah. 280 00:12:58,452 --> 00:12:59,042 you know, significantly. 281 00:13:00,172 --> 00:13:00,512 Okay. 282 00:13:00,512 --> 00:13:02,472 It's very, it's very distressing, you know? 283 00:13:02,472 --> 00:13:02,550 It is. 284 00:13:02,550 --> 00:13:02,628 It is. 285 00:13:02,628 --> 00:13:03,552 I mean, I know he, he finds him in the end. 286 00:13:03,562 --> 00:13:04,672 No, l- let's not talk about it. 287 00:13:06,082 --> 00:13:07,292 Pixar have got a lot to answer for. 288 00:13:07,352 --> 00:13:07,722 Matt: They have. 289 00:13:08,132 --> 00:13:09,832 He, he still doesn't get his mum back though, does he? 290 00:13:09,902 --> 00:13:10,692 That's outrageous. 291 00:13:10,712 --> 00:13:11,132 No. 292 00:13:11,132 --> 00:13:11,672 Jen: No. 293 00:13:11,672 --> 00:13:12,192 Stop it. 294 00:13:12,192 --> 00:13:12,752 You'll set him off. 295 00:13:12,752 --> 00:13:12,762 I 296 00:13:14,402 --> 00:13:15,702 Chris: f- I'd forgotten that bit. 297 00:13:16,292 --> 00:13:17,352 Jen: Okay, moving on. 298 00:13:18,042 --> 00:13:18,442 Right. 299 00:13:18,702 --> 00:13:20,672 So the gap isn't uniform either. 300 00:13:20,672 --> 00:13:26,692 Women cry more in conflict, men re- relatively more at positive events 301 00:13:26,762 --> 00:13:30,142 and for loss, Nemo, and rejection. 302 00:13:30,422 --> 00:13:32,992 There's, there's a very little gap though at all. 303 00:13:33,932 --> 00:13:35,352 Chris: It's good you said Nemo though, 'cause you said 304 00:13:35,352 --> 00:13:36,242 loss, then started laughing. 305 00:13:36,242 --> 00:13:36,252 I 306 00:13:38,742 --> 00:13:39,512 thought that's- … it's a, it's a bit harsh. 307 00:13:39,752 --> 00:13:39,822 Yes, it's a bit harsh. 308 00:13:39,822 --> 00:13:39,832 Matt: Yeah. 309 00:13:39,832 --> 00:13:41,562 It's like, what's going on here? 310 00:13:42,422 --> 00:13:43,202 Jen: I meant the loss of his dad. 311 00:13:43,522 --> 00:13:44,332 Poor Nemo. 312 00:13:46,479 --> 00:13:47,929 Chris: It isn't purely about biology. 313 00:13:48,379 --> 00:13:52,079 Wealthier countries with greater freedom of expression, they show 314 00:13:52,079 --> 00:13:56,199 larger gender gaps when it comes to crying, while in some lower income 315 00:13:56,229 --> 00:13:59,959 countries where the gap is much smaller, and this is because the norms can 316 00:14:00,139 --> 00:14:01,869 discourage emotional display generally. 317 00:14:02,459 --> 00:14:05,239 Matt: Which feels sort of slightly counterintuitive, doesn't it really? 318 00:14:05,239 --> 00:14:09,839 'Cause you'd assume more freedom would actually close the gap and not widen it. 319 00:14:09,949 --> 00:14:15,559 Jen: You would, but your own threshold moves day to day as well, so you've 320 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:17,609 got, like, which, which adds to it. 321 00:14:17,609 --> 00:14:21,669 You've got sleep deprivation, alcohol, stress, and your 322 00:14:21,709 --> 00:14:23,449 mental health all lower it. 323 00:14:23,609 --> 00:14:28,039 Matt: Which explains why Finding Nemo might do nothing on a Tuesday 324 00:14:28,039 --> 00:14:31,079 and completely finishes you, especially you Chris, on a Friday. 325 00:14:31,229 --> 00:14:32,839 Jen: Or a Monday for Chris maybe. 326 00:14:34,049 --> 00:14:34,469 Chris: I know. 327 00:14:34,819 --> 00:14:36,229 Same clownfish, different effect. 328 00:14:36,949 --> 00:14:37,519 What can I say? 329 00:14:38,409 --> 00:14:41,519 Um, and things change across our life sto- stages too. 330 00:14:41,549 --> 00:14:46,359 I don't mean in terms of movies, but if you think of infants, I mean, they 331 00:14:46,359 --> 00:14:49,029 cry from birth, but that's acoustic. 332 00:14:49,069 --> 00:14:52,469 They don't actually produce visible tears until roughly four to eight weeks old. 333 00:14:53,229 --> 00:14:56,969 Jen: Yeah, and the, the frequency of, like, crying episodes, that, 334 00:14:57,199 --> 00:15:01,729 that, like, gets less from infancy through to, you know, adolescence. 335 00:15:01,739 --> 00:15:06,549 Um, physical pain dominates in childhood, but that becomes a 336 00:15:06,549 --> 00:15:08,709 more minor trigger in adults. 337 00:15:08,719 --> 00:15:08,739 Um- 338 00:15:09,709 --> 00:15:12,909 Matt: Yeah, so the reasons change completely, I guess, as we grow 339 00:15:12,909 --> 00:15:15,159 older, but not just the amount. 340 00:15:15,229 --> 00:15:15,619 Jen: Mm. 341 00:15:15,709 --> 00:15:16,259 Chris: Yeah, that's right. 342 00:15:16,259 --> 00:15:17,159 I'd say they broaden. 343 00:15:17,319 --> 00:15:22,869 So adults move, um, lar- from largely egocentric triggers towards empathetic 344 00:15:22,939 --> 00:15:26,499 kind of pain for others and feelings about fairness and injustice, 345 00:15:26,499 --> 00:15:27,829 which is not a bad thing, right? 346 00:15:27,829 --> 00:15:28,759 Jen: No, not at all. 347 00:15:29,219 --> 00:15:32,889 Um, but older adults, they cry at more positive, meaningful 348 00:15:32,899 --> 00:15:34,659 things as well, like weddings- Mm 349 00:15:34,709 --> 00:15:39,999 like we've chatted about, reunions, milestones, possibly reflecting 350 00:15:40,039 --> 00:15:43,879 a stronger sense of connection to their family and their community. 351 00:15:44,549 --> 00:15:46,649 Matt: Yeah, which is the classic dad, isn't it? 352 00:15:46,659 --> 00:15:51,769 He's gone sort of from stone face to welling up at Nemo or ET or something. 353 00:15:51,899 --> 00:15:52,269 Jen: Mm. 354 00:15:52,729 --> 00:15:55,149 Chris: Yeah, so when it comes back to the kind of question we're looking at 355 00:15:55,149 --> 00:15:59,819 today, the honest answer is it depends, which I know is a bit annoying and 356 00:15:59,829 --> 00:16:02,349 hardly a great conclusion, but there, there are so many parts to this- Yeah 357 00:16:02,669 --> 00:16:02,809 aren't there? 358 00:16:04,089 --> 00:16:08,309 Jen: No, but we can start with what people believe, because it's overwhelming. 359 00:16:08,309 --> 00:16:13,989 So over 70% say crying makes them feel better, and mental health 360 00:16:13,989 --> 00:16:16,349 professionals broadly agree with that. 361 00:16:16,849 --> 00:16:20,509 Matt: Yeah, and that's about as close to a consensus as you're gonna get on anything. 362 00:16:20,559 --> 00:16:20,929 Jen: Mm-hmm. 363 00:16:21,229 --> 00:16:22,089 Chris: You'd think so, wouldn't you? 364 00:16:22,139 --> 00:16:25,379 But then the controlled lab studies say the absolute opposite. 365 00:16:25,409 --> 00:16:29,159 So people who cry watching sad movies, um, report feeling 366 00:16:29,169 --> 00:16:30,559 worse immediately afterwards. 367 00:16:30,679 --> 00:16:33,279 Jen: Think I'd cry watching a sad movie in a lab 368 00:16:35,339 --> 00:16:36,055 . Chris: That's a good point, yeah. 369 00:16:36,055 --> 00:16:37,929 Matt: It's not a great place to watch a sad movie, is it? 370 00:16:38,049 --> 00:16:38,279 Jen: Yep. 371 00:16:38,539 --> 00:16:42,789 Matt: So it can't be then that the research tells us that we're all wrong. 372 00:16:42,799 --> 00:16:44,509 That can't be where this all ends, surely. 373 00:16:44,549 --> 00:16:44,939 Jen: Yeah. 374 00:16:44,939 --> 00:16:45,719 No, it isn't. 375 00:16:45,769 --> 00:16:49,229 And the resolu- resolution seems to be timing. 376 00:16:49,399 --> 00:16:53,109 So one study tracked mood at several points after a sad film. 377 00:16:53,319 --> 00:16:58,139 So the criers felt worse right after, um, recovered within 20 378 00:16:58,139 --> 00:17:02,669 minutes, and by 90 minutes they were better than before the film began. 379 00:17:03,069 --> 00:17:03,389 Chris: Yeah. 380 00:17:03,389 --> 00:17:07,299 And that pattern wasn't seen in people who didn't cry. 381 00:17:07,309 --> 00:17:07,329 So 382 00:17:08,079 --> 00:17:13,079 Matt: the lab studies then weren't wrong, they were measuring, I guess, at the worst 383 00:17:13,089 --> 00:17:15,269 possible moment, directly after the film. 384 00:17:15,389 --> 00:17:16,199 Jen: Yeah, that's it. 385 00:17:16,279 --> 00:17:22,139 Though a daily diary study of women found about only 30% felt 386 00:17:22,149 --> 00:17:27,909 better after crying, 60% had no change, and roughly 9% felt worse. 387 00:17:28,289 --> 00:17:30,999 Matt: So even at its best, it's not reliable, is it? 388 00:17:31,279 --> 00:17:34,339 So what describes then which group we're in? 389 00:17:34,829 --> 00:17:37,359 Chris: Yeah, so it almost entirely comes down to context. 390 00:17:37,719 --> 00:17:40,369 So, um, social support is the biggest factor. 391 00:17:40,679 --> 00:17:44,599 Crying while being comforted by a close friend or a partner predicts a mood 392 00:17:44,599 --> 00:17:49,949 improvement, whereas crying alone in an, like, an unsupportive environment doesn't. 393 00:17:51,577 --> 00:17:54,497 Jen: And whether the cry led anywhere matters too. 394 00:17:54,547 --> 00:17:57,737 So if it produced new understanding or resolved the 395 00:17:57,737 --> 00:18:00,297 problem, it feels more relieving. 396 00:18:00,307 --> 00:18:05,467 Um, and crying about a positive event beats crying about 397 00:18:05,477 --> 00:18:06,787 someone else's suffering. 398 00:18:07,497 --> 00:18:12,367 Chris: Yeah, and people who are depressed rarely report any improvement at all, 399 00:18:12,387 --> 00:18:16,407 which is worth knowing if you've been told that a good cry will improve things, 400 00:18:16,447 --> 00:18:18,617 and for you it just consistently doesn't. 401 00:18:18,677 --> 00:18:19,077 Jen: Mm. 402 00:18:19,497 --> 00:18:21,127 Matt: Yeah, there's a real permission in that, isn't there? 403 00:18:21,137 --> 00:18:25,267 You're not actually then doing crying the wrong way. 404 00:18:25,347 --> 00:18:25,927 Jen: No. 405 00:18:26,047 --> 00:18:27,237 You don't need to try harder. 406 00:18:27,247 --> 00:18:31,827 Um, but there's another variable, and this one's my favorite. 407 00:18:32,067 --> 00:18:37,367 People tend to feel better crying alone or with one other person, but with 408 00:18:37,447 --> 00:18:39,957 two or more it makes them feel worse. 409 00:18:40,047 --> 00:18:40,537 Matt: Oh, yeah. 410 00:18:40,537 --> 00:18:44,657 Think about crying in the office, 'cause, you know, you cry, one 411 00:18:44,657 --> 00:18:46,857 colleague, that's a human connection. 412 00:18:46,867 --> 00:18:50,407 The second person comes along, turns it into a bit of an incident. 413 00:18:50,667 --> 00:18:53,657 Someone third comes- a third person comes along, you've got someone 414 00:18:53,657 --> 00:18:55,867 fetching a chair, like, I don't know, maybe you've fainted or something. 415 00:18:55,867 --> 00:18:56,457 Jen: Yeah. 416 00:18:56,727 --> 00:18:59,477 Chris: Yeah, and on top of all of that, you end up managing everyone else's 417 00:18:59,477 --> 00:19:02,657 concern they've got for you instead of thinking about the thing you were 418 00:19:02,657 --> 00:19:04,177 actually upset about in the first place. 419 00:19:04,957 --> 00:19:09,407 Jen: But one thing, um, just worth noting is crying isn't 420 00:19:09,417 --> 00:19:11,587 universally good for you physically. 421 00:19:11,787 --> 00:19:17,397 So there was two studies in 2022 that found it doesn't relieve physical pain and 422 00:19:17,397 --> 00:19:19,497 may actually lower your pain threshold. 423 00:19:19,937 --> 00:19:24,217 Matt: So crying because someone or because something maybe hurts 424 00:19:24,257 --> 00:19:25,677 doesn't help with the hurting? 425 00:19:25,847 --> 00:19:27,957 Jen: Not according to that work, no. 426 00:19:28,267 --> 00:19:34,217 Um, and excessive crying unrelated to an emotion, that has an actual proper 427 00:19:34,217 --> 00:19:39,507 name, epiphora, and it's treated as a medical issue rather than a benefit 428 00:19:39,957 --> 00:19:43,547 Chris: It is, and as is persistent crying linked to migraines, 429 00:19:43,577 --> 00:19:47,667 linked to, uh, multiple sclerosis, to brain injury or stroke. 430 00:19:48,097 --> 00:19:51,697 So just to do my Captain Sensible bit for a moment, if I may. 431 00:19:51,697 --> 00:19:51,707 Matt: Dun, 432 00:19:51,707 --> 00:19:52,547 dun, dun, 433 00:19:52,547 --> 00:19:52,937 dun. 434 00:19:52,937 --> 00:19:57,257 Chris: If- … crying has changed for you and it just isn't tracking at all 435 00:19:57,257 --> 00:20:00,337 with how you feel, it is something worth keeping in mind, and may- might 436 00:20:00,337 --> 00:20:01,307 be something worth getting looked at. 437 00:20:01,547 --> 00:20:03,877 Jen: Which people probably never think about. 438 00:20:03,997 --> 00:20:04,237 Matt: No. 439 00:20:04,927 --> 00:20:07,237 No, it's, uh, it's not something, is it, you would 440 00:20:07,247 --> 00:20:07,487 Jen: track? 441 00:20:07,627 --> 00:20:09,617 Go to your doctor and say, "I'm crying too much." 442 00:20:09,877 --> 00:20:10,447 It, like- Or I'm crying 443 00:20:10,457 --> 00:20:10,887 Matt: differently. 444 00:20:10,977 --> 00:20:11,617 Jen: Yeah. 445 00:20:11,687 --> 00:20:12,077 Matt: Yeah. 446 00:20:12,757 --> 00:20:12,797 Jen: Mad. 447 00:20:12,997 --> 00:20:13,467 Matt: It is. 448 00:20:13,817 --> 00:20:17,727 And I guess never apologize for this useful bit, right? 449 00:20:17,727 --> 00:20:20,367 So, um, don't apologize for the, the crying and the good 450 00:20:20,367 --> 00:20:23,547 bits, but what are tears for? 451 00:20:24,287 --> 00:20:24,607 Jen: Okay. 452 00:20:24,607 --> 00:20:29,527 So the lead in account is that they work as a signal to other people, and 453 00:20:29,557 --> 00:20:31,697 there's a clever experiment behind it. 454 00:20:31,707 --> 00:20:36,787 So researchers took photographs of faces and digitally removed the tears. 455 00:20:37,237 --> 00:20:37,607 Chris: They did. 456 00:20:37,607 --> 00:20:41,057 So it was the same faces with tears visible, and what happened is they 457 00:20:41,057 --> 00:20:45,487 were judged as sadder and more in need of help, and people reported 458 00:20:45,497 --> 00:20:48,497 greater willingness to comfort them purely because of that appearance. 459 00:20:48,637 --> 00:20:48,657 Matt: Mm-hmm. 460 00:20:48,667 --> 00:20:49,247 Yeah. 461 00:20:49,257 --> 00:20:49,987 It's interesting, isn't it? 462 00:20:49,987 --> 00:20:51,507 So same face, same expression. 463 00:20:51,857 --> 00:20:55,937 The only difference then is the water on the face, and that changes 464 00:20:55,937 --> 00:20:57,177 how much help you were offered. 465 00:20:57,627 --> 00:21:02,147 Jen: So the thinking is that tears actually strengthen, like, social bonds. 466 00:21:02,437 --> 00:21:07,677 They prompt that caregiving and reduce aggression in whoever's watching. 467 00:21:07,967 --> 00:21:10,757 So an extension of what a baby's crying does. 468 00:21:11,337 --> 00:21:15,107 Chris: So the tears aren't really for me then, uh, even at my son's wedding. 469 00:21:15,107 --> 00:21:17,547 They're for whoever's in the room and not videoing it. 470 00:21:18,037 --> 00:21:21,357 Jen: Which is why context decides how you feel afterwards. 471 00:21:21,357 --> 00:21:24,367 So a signal only works if there's somebody there to receive it. 472 00:21:25,495 --> 00:21:28,365 Okay, so why do we cry when we're sad? 473 00:21:29,185 --> 00:21:33,445 Chris: So it's because sadness we can't do anything about pushes the emotional 474 00:21:33,445 --> 00:21:38,915 load beyond what we can handle in that moment, and the, um, the limbic system 475 00:21:39,205 --> 00:21:43,355 passes that to the brainstem, which tells the lacrimal glands to produce more 476 00:21:43,355 --> 00:21:45,445 fluid than the tear ducts can handle. 477 00:21:46,285 --> 00:21:51,555 Matt: And the guess we both got wrong at the start, in fact, was the whole answer. 478 00:21:51,795 --> 00:21:56,735 It was never really the sadness, it was the powerlessness, uh, underneath it all. 479 00:21:57,205 --> 00:22:03,355 Jen: And the tears are a signal read, um, by other people as a request for help. 480 00:22:03,575 --> 00:22:08,885 So a good cry isn't a system failing, it's a message going out, and 481 00:22:08,885 --> 00:22:13,775 whether you feel better depends far more on who's around to answer it. 482 00:22:14,445 --> 00:22:15,715 So that's why. 483 00:22:16,105 --> 00:22:17,415 That is it for this week. 484 00:22:17,455 --> 00:22:19,455 Make sure you hit that subscribe button. 485 00:22:19,455 --> 00:22:22,975 We're unpacking the science behind everyday questions. 486 00:22:23,495 --> 00:22:26,845 Tell us in the comments what you'd like us to explore next. 487 00:22:28,345 --> 00:22:30,075 Thanks for geeking out with us. 488 00:22:30,465 --> 00:22:32,345 But for now, that's it from me. 489 00:22:32,645 --> 00:22:33,475 Chris: That's it from me. 490 00:22:33,785 --> 00:22:34,585 Matt: And that's it from me. 491 00:22:34,885 --> 00:22:35,895 Jen: Bye for now.