1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,080 Matt Edmundson: hello and welcome to the eCommerce Podcast with 2 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:05,549 me, your host, MatT Edmundson. 3 00:00:05,550 --> 00:00:09,910 The eCommerce Podcast is all about helping you deliver eCommerce well. 4 00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:13,679 And to help us do just that, today I'm chatting with Phil Byrne from 5 00:00:13,709 --> 00:00:19,120 Positive Sparks about tips from the playbook of a PPC expert. 6 00:00:19,250 --> 00:00:24,010 Oh yes, we're going to pick his brains all about PPC and Google 7 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:25,149 and all those kind of things. 8 00:00:25,260 --> 00:00:25,939 We're going to get into it. 9 00:00:25,990 --> 00:00:27,410 But before we do, let me remind you. 10 00:00:28,150 --> 00:00:31,790 Dear awesome listener, if you haven't done so already, sign up to the newsletter. 11 00:00:32,425 --> 00:00:35,485 On the website@ecommercepodcast.net. 12 00:00:35,935 --> 00:00:38,785 All we do with that, by the way, is we 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00:01:15,464 cohort, so do come sign up for that. 25 00:01:15,464 --> 00:01:17,325 Check out more information at ecommercecohort. 26 00:01:17,575 --> 00:01:18,955 com, because besides... 27 00:01:19,410 --> 00:01:24,420 Getting access to the Expert Monthly Workshops and all that sort of stuff. 28 00:01:25,100 --> 00:01:29,209 You also get access to watch these recordings, the podcast recordings 29 00:01:29,210 --> 00:01:30,419 of eCommerce Podcast Live. 30 00:01:30,419 --> 00:01:33,059 You get to ask the guests your questions if you do and if you are 31 00:01:33,060 --> 00:01:36,460 watching this episode live, I know a couple of you are, do apologise 32 00:01:36,460 --> 00:01:37,630 for the mess up at the start again. 33 00:01:39,180 --> 00:01:41,400 If you're just listening to this, you'll have no idea what I'm talking 34 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:43,970 about, but I did severely mess up the start, but that's okay. 35 00:01:44,655 --> 00:01:45,655 We're back on track. 36 00:01:46,325 --> 00:01:49,295 More information about Cohort can be found, like I said, at ecommercecohort. 37 00:01:50,055 --> 00:01:53,055 com, or just follow the links from ecommercepodcast. 38 00:01:53,055 --> 00:01:53,335 net. 39 00:01:53,475 --> 00:01:54,564 Be great to see you in there. 40 00:01:55,385 --> 00:01:59,305 Now, before I get into today's conversation, let me give a bit of 41 00:01:59,305 --> 00:02:03,655 a shout out and a mention to Alan Gormley, who has been on the show, 42 00:02:03,655 --> 00:02:05,145 and Alan is an absolute legend. 43 00:02:05,625 --> 00:02:07,995 And the reason I want to do that, Alan from Shopbox. 44 00:02:08,055 --> 00:02:08,475 ai. 45 00:02:09,795 --> 00:02:14,945 He introduced us he introduced me to Phil, who is, who has who is and has 46 00:02:14,945 --> 00:02:22,195 been diving into the digital realm since 1999 with a melody in his step, 47 00:02:22,195 --> 00:02:28,850 he pioneered one of the world's unique commission based PPC Agencies in 2008. 48 00:02:29,290 --> 00:02:34,460 This vintage digital aficionado has collaborated with top notch 49 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:37,660 entrepreneurs and propelled numerous projects to the skies. 50 00:02:38,010 --> 00:02:42,380 He is a treasure trove of secrets and tales and we're 51 00:02:42,380 --> 00:02:43,140 going to get into all of them. 52 00:02:43,230 --> 00:02:43,760 Yes, we are. 53 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:45,030 Phil, great to have you on the show, man. 54 00:02:45,030 --> 00:02:45,820 Thanks for joining us. 55 00:02:45,820 --> 00:02:47,620 How are we doing today, good sir? 56 00:02:48,340 --> 00:02:48,750 Hi Matt, 57 00:02:49,090 --> 00:02:50,020 Phil Byrne: it's great to be here. 58 00:02:50,340 --> 00:02:52,100 Feeling good, hope you are too. 59 00:02:52,750 --> 00:02:53,540 Looking forward to the chat. 60 00:02:53,540 --> 00:02:55,650 Matt Edmundson: Yeah, feeling good. 61 00:02:56,070 --> 00:02:59,980 Now we've actually got the conversation underway and we've moved past the blip. 62 00:03:00,780 --> 00:03:02,590 But yeah, whereabouts in the world are you? 63 00:03:03,830 --> 00:03:07,260 Phil Byrne: I'm based in Cornwall, there are three of the team in 64 00:03:07,260 --> 00:03:12,480 Cornwall, including myself, so every day, pretty nice life, I get up, look 65 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:17,210 at the sea, and then come back and do some pay per click, or help the team 66 00:03:17,210 --> 00:03:19,279 do their pay per click, as it is these 67 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:19,870 Matt Edmundson: days. 68 00:03:20,289 --> 00:03:21,530 Whereabouts in Cornwall are you? 69 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:25,739 Phil Byrne: I live in a village called St Agnes. 70 00:03:25,740 --> 00:03:29,020 The company main office is in Truro, which is about six miles away. 71 00:03:29,620 --> 00:03:34,900 But I spend most of my time working from home, walking down to the sea, 72 00:03:34,910 --> 00:03:36,950 mixing my kids really, with the 73 00:03:37,300 --> 00:03:38,689 Matt Edmundson: digital life that we have. 74 00:03:38,749 --> 00:03:39,739 Yeah, no doubt. 75 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:43,100 You don't sound like you're from Cornwall though, I'm not being funny. 76 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:43,500 Phil Byrne: No. 77 00:03:43,570 --> 00:03:45,120 Originally, I come from... 78 00:03:45,710 --> 00:03:48,150 A small Cumbrian village near Carlisle. 79 00:03:48,220 --> 00:03:48,590 Yeah. 80 00:03:48,660 --> 00:03:52,000 So it's really a town, it's not a village, it's called Maryport. 81 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:54,810 So if ever you're up that way, yep, you'll take a visit. 82 00:03:54,850 --> 00:03:57,460 It's a place that doesn't get the same amount of traffic as 83 00:03:57,670 --> 00:04:02,469 Keswick and Windermere and all the more famous places around my 84 00:04:02,469 --> 00:04:03,079 Matt Edmundson: hometown. 85 00:04:03,700 --> 00:04:04,530 Maryport. 86 00:04:04,620 --> 00:04:07,520 I can't say as I've been, I've obviously done Windermere, I've done Keswick, 87 00:04:07,530 --> 00:04:09,940 I've done the lakes many times, it's an hour and a half away from me. 88 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:12,890 But it's, so Maryport's a place worth looking at. 89 00:04:14,065 --> 00:04:14,265 It's, 90 00:04:14,265 --> 00:04:16,995 Phil Byrne: It's a lot different than Agnes, it's a town that needs 91 00:04:17,355 --> 00:04:20,994 some kind of look, to happen to it, but it's a beautiful view of 92 00:04:20,994 --> 00:04:24,824 Scotland, it's a beautiful view, go down to the seafront, you're looking 93 00:04:24,824 --> 00:04:29,744 right across the water at what is Dumfrieshire, Dumfries and Galloway. 94 00:04:30,515 --> 00:04:31,235 That's worth seeing, Matt. 95 00:04:31,635 --> 00:04:31,855 Yeah. 96 00:04:31,895 --> 00:04:33,135 And the fish keeps a go too. 97 00:04:33,415 --> 00:04:33,685 Matt Edmundson: Okay. 98 00:04:33,685 --> 00:04:36,014 I'll bring them all then. 99 00:04:36,015 --> 00:04:36,225 Good. 100 00:04:37,085 --> 00:04:39,274 It all, it's funny isn't it, English tourism. 101 00:04:39,275 --> 00:04:40,015 What's it based around? 102 00:04:40,034 --> 00:04:41,665 Is there a good pub or a chippy? 103 00:04:41,704 --> 00:04:42,295 We just want to know. 104 00:04:42,295 --> 00:04:43,209 That's 105 00:04:43,209 --> 00:04:44,124 Phil Byrne: it. 106 00:04:44,124 --> 00:04:45,444 Got those things covered, you're great. 107 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:48,970 Matt Edmundson: Wow, absolutely. 108 00:04:48,980 --> 00:04:50,470 It's good to talk to a fellow Brit. 109 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:51,520 So welcome to the show. 110 00:04:51,690 --> 00:04:55,999 And interestingly, I just finished recording a podcast about an hour ago 111 00:04:56,050 --> 00:04:59,949 for another show we do called Push To Be More with a lady from Cornwall. 112 00:04:59,990 --> 00:05:01,899 She was from Essex originally. 113 00:05:01,910 --> 00:05:03,089 She now lives in Newquay. 114 00:05:03,589 --> 00:05:06,040 And she just said, you know what, I'm coming to Newquay twice a year 115 00:05:06,090 --> 00:05:07,460 because we love it over here so much. 116 00:05:07,660 --> 00:05:08,820 I'm just moving. 117 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:12,540 And so they just moved over about five years ago and never 118 00:05:12,540 --> 00:05:13,539 looked back since really. 119 00:05:13,540 --> 00:05:14,454 Is that what happened to you? 120 00:05:15,825 --> 00:05:20,115 Phil Byrne: We came nine years ago now, so we've been here a little while and 121 00:05:20,115 --> 00:05:21,555 we're actually living abroad at the time. 122 00:05:21,555 --> 00:05:23,835 We're living in Ireland before we came to Cornwall. 123 00:05:24,455 --> 00:05:25,805 And my wife is American. 124 00:05:26,105 --> 00:05:26,135 Okay. 125 00:05:26,135 --> 00:05:29,245 So we spent a long time trying different places. 126 00:05:29,335 --> 00:05:29,605 Yeah. 127 00:05:29,665 --> 00:05:32,905 So when you're in international family, there's no perfect place to live. 128 00:05:32,910 --> 00:05:33,445 That's true. 129 00:05:33,775 --> 00:05:35,030 Where the world opens up to you. 130 00:05:35,090 --> 00:05:35,360 Yeah. 131 00:05:36,050 --> 00:05:38,580 And we try different countries and then. 132 00:05:39,095 --> 00:05:40,715 We just wanted to come back to the UK. 133 00:05:40,745 --> 00:05:46,395 Some of that was career opportunities, and we chose Cornwall because we'd heard 134 00:05:46,395 --> 00:05:49,475 it was the sunniest, it was the warmest. 135 00:05:49,934 --> 00:05:51,444 Some days, that is true, Matt. 136 00:05:51,485 --> 00:05:54,985 I wouldn't say it's the truth overall, but it's a beautiful place to live. 137 00:05:55,665 --> 00:05:57,815 We've had kids here now, so that's... 138 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:01,690 Matt Edmundson: That's awesome. 139 00:06:02,020 --> 00:06:02,660 I like that. 140 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:06,779 They the sort of the borders opening up to international families and 141 00:06:06,779 --> 00:06:09,759 actually also being in digital now, you can pretty much do your job 142 00:06:09,770 --> 00:06:10,909 anywhere from the world, right? 143 00:06:11,379 --> 00:06:11,750 Phil Byrne: That's right. 144 00:06:11,929 --> 00:06:15,979 Jessica, my wife and I, we started remote working. 145 00:06:16,395 --> 00:06:21,275 It didn't have that name back then, but we started that back in 2011, so it 146 00:06:21,275 --> 00:06:26,594 was quite a long time ago, and it was her PhD that made it happen originally. 147 00:06:26,695 --> 00:06:30,494 So she did a PhD in the music of the tango, so we went to Buenos 148 00:06:30,495 --> 00:06:32,675 Aires, and we had some time there. 149 00:06:32,755 --> 00:06:33,545 Wow. 150 00:06:34,155 --> 00:06:35,665 That started the whole thing off. 151 00:06:35,725 --> 00:06:36,145 Matt Edmundson: Yeah. 152 00:06:36,854 --> 00:06:37,945 That sounds amazing. 153 00:06:38,454 --> 00:06:42,664 To do a PhD in the music of the tango, I think it is quite, I'm a 154 00:06:42,664 --> 00:06:44,324 doctor, what are you a doctor in? 155 00:06:46,354 --> 00:06:47,424 Phil Byrne: Music of the tango. 156 00:06:49,094 --> 00:06:50,994 Because what actually happens for her is everyone thinks she's a 157 00:06:50,994 --> 00:06:54,775 medical doctor, and they ask her advice, my leg's hurting, I'm not 158 00:06:54,825 --> 00:06:57,005 feeling good, and she has to explain. 159 00:06:57,775 --> 00:06:59,765 Matt Edmundson: Just go do the tango and everything will be alright, 160 00:07:03,065 --> 00:07:06,465 yeah, it's fascinating isn't it, absolutely, so does that mean 161 00:07:06,465 --> 00:07:07,505 you're very good at the tango? 162 00:07:09,085 --> 00:07:09,225 We 163 00:07:09,225 --> 00:07:12,455 Phil Byrne: tried the dance and neither of us were that good at it, 164 00:07:12,455 --> 00:07:14,255 and probably even worse altogether. 165 00:07:14,845 --> 00:07:17,995 Because you have to, the one thing I learned from the tango, 166 00:07:18,275 --> 00:07:21,625 is all of your relationship things come out in that dance, Matt. 167 00:07:21,625 --> 00:07:25,745 If you don't have an argument that day, it's not going to go well. 168 00:07:28,845 --> 00:07:30,994 Matt Edmundson: Wow, okay, fair play to you. 169 00:07:31,274 --> 00:07:33,574 So how did you get involved in PPC then? 170 00:07:34,794 --> 00:07:37,734 Phil Byrne: A long time ago, as you said, I've been online for a long 171 00:07:37,734 --> 00:07:39,564 time, so I've always been into music. 172 00:07:39,644 --> 00:07:40,994 As I can see, you are, with your... 173 00:07:41,344 --> 00:07:42,364 Drums behind you. 174 00:07:42,394 --> 00:07:42,764 I wish 175 00:07:42,894 --> 00:07:44,084 Matt Edmundson: I could claim credit for those. 176 00:07:44,124 --> 00:07:46,774 They belong to my son, who is yeah. 177 00:07:46,954 --> 00:07:48,404 It just makes a really cool backdrop. 178 00:07:48,414 --> 00:07:52,504 But the drums that you see belong to my son who's buggered off to university now. 179 00:07:52,514 --> 00:07:55,884 So Sharon, my wife, is I'm converting his room into a guest room. 180 00:07:56,544 --> 00:07:59,844 And she moved the drum kit, and we decided to just put them in the studio. 181 00:08:00,004 --> 00:08:01,294 Because it would just make a great backdrop. 182 00:08:01,364 --> 00:08:03,424 And if he ever wants to play them, it's away from the house. 183 00:08:03,479 --> 00:08:07,539 I wish I, I don't play the drums, Phil, but I do play the guitar and keyboard. 184 00:08:07,829 --> 00:08:09,309 Phil Byrne: There's that musical heritage. 185 00:08:09,429 --> 00:08:11,559 So you do have music in the family, apparently, 186 00:08:14,639 --> 00:08:15,329 Matt Edmundson: maybe, but yeah, 187 00:08:17,009 --> 00:08:17,479 Phil Byrne: still there. 188 00:08:18,989 --> 00:08:21,349 So it all began for me back in the late nineties. 189 00:08:22,799 --> 00:08:24,139 I just left university. 190 00:08:24,849 --> 00:08:29,209 I've been involved with bands at university, and I ended up helping 191 00:08:29,439 --> 00:08:32,669 the other university in Leeds, which was called Leeds Polytechnic 192 00:08:33,309 --> 00:08:33,643 Matt Edmundson: at the time. 193 00:08:33,643 --> 00:08:33,725 Yeah. 194 00:08:33,725 --> 00:08:34,655 I remember those days. 195 00:08:34,655 --> 00:08:34,895 Remember 196 00:08:34,895 --> 00:08:35,435 Phil Byrne: those days? 197 00:08:35,435 --> 00:08:35,795 Yeah. 198 00:08:35,855 --> 00:08:38,635 To put on their bands and do different things. 199 00:08:39,055 --> 00:08:43,455 So from there, we began to promote the events with very early websites. 200 00:08:44,295 --> 00:08:47,082 Netscape Composer was the first thing I ever did. 201 00:08:47,082 --> 00:08:47,707 Remember that? 202 00:08:47,707 --> 00:08:49,063 Yeah, I do, yeah. 203 00:08:49,783 --> 00:08:50,603 Yeah, totally. 204 00:08:50,923 --> 00:08:55,273 websites for bands, and that grew into promotion. 205 00:08:55,273 --> 00:08:59,653 So SEO was the first thing that I really discovered as a marketing channel. 206 00:09:00,353 --> 00:09:05,453 And then that moved into my own affiliate sites, doing websites for other 207 00:09:05,453 --> 00:09:07,763 companies, in and around Leeds and beyond. 208 00:09:08,723 --> 00:09:09,513 And then... 209 00:09:10,033 --> 00:09:14,353 Suddenly, pay per click arrived, and then a few years after that, I don't 210 00:09:14,353 --> 00:09:18,668 know if you remember, the first big SEO change was It was Panda, Google 211 00:09:18,668 --> 00:09:22,548 Panda, which came through, changed a lot of the rankings for sites. 212 00:09:23,188 --> 00:09:26,518 So pay per click was about 20 percent of my life until that happened. 213 00:09:26,908 --> 00:09:31,448 At the time, I had all these hotel comparison sites, which were really 214 00:09:31,448 --> 00:09:36,288 affiliate sites, using different SEO techniques to be ranking 215 00:09:36,288 --> 00:09:38,328 high for hotels in whatever town. 216 00:09:39,348 --> 00:09:41,668 And that was my main source of income at the time. 217 00:09:41,668 --> 00:09:44,118 And then Panda hit, and overnight... 218 00:09:44,873 --> 00:09:47,523 That income went down by 90%. 219 00:09:48,673 --> 00:09:53,523 So after getting over the shock of that, I also realized at the same 220 00:09:53,523 --> 00:09:58,013 time, what Google had done was, Panda was the big story, but Google ads had 221 00:09:58,013 --> 00:09:59,833 gone through quite a transformation. 222 00:10:00,353 --> 00:10:04,143 Around about the same moment and he offered me these new opportunities. 223 00:10:04,813 --> 00:10:06,943 So that's what really took me into pay per click. 224 00:10:07,853 --> 00:10:12,243 And then the client side of my life was beginning to grow at the same time. 225 00:10:13,073 --> 00:10:15,483 So those opportunities I would look out for them too. 226 00:10:16,393 --> 00:10:17,283 I Still live near Leeds. 227 00:10:17,323 --> 00:10:21,833 It was before we really left that all the pay per click world began. 228 00:10:22,663 --> 00:10:24,403 And Leeds had a Google office. 229 00:10:25,478 --> 00:10:27,478 So I could meet it with my rep. 230 00:10:27,528 --> 00:10:30,858 It was a lot different then, your rep wanted the contact from you. 231 00:10:31,768 --> 00:10:35,608 Whereas these days, it's so hard to go up to Google support at 232 00:10:35,608 --> 00:10:37,878 all, and it all grew from there. 233 00:10:38,218 --> 00:10:43,688 And then as for me, as SEO changed and became perhaps less powerful, 234 00:10:44,518 --> 00:10:46,518 pay per click became more powerful. 235 00:10:49,058 --> 00:10:50,038 Matt Edmundson: It's really fascinating. 236 00:10:50,038 --> 00:10:50,898 Yeah, and here we are. 237 00:10:50,928 --> 00:10:56,258 It's fascinating listening to your journey because I started in websites in 98. 238 00:10:57,978 --> 00:11:01,088 First website ever built was for a friend. 239 00:11:01,208 --> 00:11:04,768 His church wanted a website and he came to me and he said, Matt, do you 240 00:11:04,768 --> 00:11:05,928 know anybody that builds websites? 241 00:11:05,998 --> 00:11:08,478 And there's some friends of mine do them, but they're thousands of pounds. 242 00:11:08,518 --> 00:11:10,048 Cause you know, no one had a clue back then. 243 00:11:10,058 --> 00:11:11,948 And I said, but if you want. 244 00:11:12,668 --> 00:11:16,338 I know there's some software out there, buy the software for me, I'll figure 245 00:11:16,338 --> 00:11:19,308 it out because I was busy selling saunas and steam rooms at the time, 246 00:11:20,118 --> 00:11:23,178 and as you do, I just said, I just saw an opportunity and I said, I'll 247 00:11:23,178 --> 00:11:25,518 do it, just buy the software, and he bought, do you remember Dreamweaver? 248 00:11:26,613 --> 00:11:27,253 I used to use it. 249 00:11:27,303 --> 00:11:27,533 Yeah. 250 00:11:27,613 --> 00:11:31,813 Dreamweaver and one of the very Dreamweaver and what 251 00:11:31,813 --> 00:11:32,973 was the graphics one? 252 00:11:32,973 --> 00:11:33,883 Was it fireworks? 253 00:11:33,883 --> 00:11:34,583 Phil Byrne: Was that what it was called? 254 00:11:35,323 --> 00:11:36,133 Fireworks, that's right. 255 00:11:36,193 --> 00:11:36,443 Yeah. 256 00:11:36,443 --> 00:11:37,515 The same company, wasn't 257 00:11:37,515 --> 00:11:37,783 Matt Edmundson: it? 258 00:11:37,783 --> 00:11:38,113 Macromedia. 259 00:11:38,193 --> 00:11:42,673 Macromedia, before they were bought out by Adobe and they and so they were like yeah. 260 00:11:42,673 --> 00:11:45,168 So they, and I did this website for them. 261 00:11:45,648 --> 00:11:49,098 And I did a website for Sharon and I who were just about to get married. 262 00:11:49,198 --> 00:11:50,378 So this was 25 years ago. 263 00:11:50,378 --> 00:11:52,348 So we did these websites back then. 264 00:11:52,348 --> 00:11:53,428 So I'm just listening to your journey. 265 00:11:53,428 --> 00:11:55,438 I'm just remembering all of this going, geez, man. 266 00:11:56,268 --> 00:12:00,568 So yeah, going back to the old days, the polytechnic days as well. 267 00:12:01,408 --> 00:12:02,568 So trip down memory lane. 268 00:12:02,878 --> 00:12:06,848 So here we are Phil, all these years later, you're still involved in PPC. 269 00:12:07,088 --> 00:12:09,668 You didn't obviously get totally wiped out when your hotel websites. 270 00:12:09,804 --> 00:12:11,128 Wow. 271 00:12:11,128 --> 00:12:15,723 And so you've obviously learned a thing or two about PPC over the years. 272 00:12:16,013 --> 00:12:20,463 What are some of the big sort of changes that you've noticed that maybe are for 273 00:12:20,463 --> 00:12:21,953 the good or maybe not for the good? 274 00:12:23,258 --> 00:12:24,518 Phil Byrne: It's definitely a mix of both. 275 00:12:24,638 --> 00:12:30,078 One of the big changes Originally was the rise of more ads. 276 00:12:30,568 --> 00:12:35,368 So every platform, whether it's Google, Meta, TikTok now, they're all going 277 00:12:35,368 --> 00:12:36,998 to generate their income from ads. 278 00:12:37,128 --> 00:12:38,968 So what really happens to the platform? 279 00:12:39,613 --> 00:12:41,753 It is out to begin to dominate the space. 280 00:12:42,783 --> 00:12:44,333 Now, is that a good or a bad thing? 281 00:12:45,463 --> 00:12:49,993 It creates opportunity for eCom brands, if we want to promote their products. 282 00:12:50,433 --> 00:12:53,843 But at the same time, I think it does always take a little bit of 283 00:12:53,843 --> 00:12:56,253 the soul of what the platform is. 284 00:12:57,083 --> 00:13:01,763 And it's how successful the platform is going forward, it's how they balance 285 00:13:02,533 --> 00:13:05,413 that mix of income versus sales. 286 00:13:06,573 --> 00:13:09,993 I think Google Shopping has been a massive change for eCom brands. 287 00:13:10,003 --> 00:13:10,703 Yes, it has. 288 00:13:11,053 --> 00:13:16,323 The fact that shopping came into being, um, off allowed us the opportunities 289 00:13:16,513 --> 00:13:20,483 to promote products in a very different way with an image and offer price. 290 00:13:21,523 --> 00:13:24,693 At the same time, the Google Shopping feeds are. 291 00:13:24,923 --> 00:13:26,503 A whole opportunity in themselves. 292 00:13:27,783 --> 00:13:31,743 Really they have a lot of similarity with SEO in our ability to manipulate 293 00:13:31,743 --> 00:13:35,043 which products are shown and which ones we want to put less attention on. 294 00:13:35,863 --> 00:13:37,643 I think that's changed things dramatically. 295 00:13:38,103 --> 00:13:38,663 YouTube. 296 00:13:39,383 --> 00:13:39,663 Yeah. 297 00:13:39,783 --> 00:13:44,613 Beginning to launch their ads, that is really a big part of how Google is growing 298 00:13:44,613 --> 00:13:49,133 now, certainly through Performance Max and all the smart campaigns, which mix all 299 00:13:49,133 --> 00:13:51,053 of the different platforms that they own. 300 00:13:51,663 --> 00:13:54,393 YouTube is just such a rising force. 301 00:13:54,403 --> 00:13:57,333 It's perhaps the part of Google which has the most opportunity. 302 00:13:57,403 --> 00:13:57,733 Yeah. 303 00:13:58,283 --> 00:14:02,773 Whereas search is so congested now, shopping the same, it's a 304 00:14:02,773 --> 00:14:04,243 bit tougher to find your gap. 305 00:14:05,163 --> 00:14:07,253 Then of course, social media, Matt, when you and I began, 306 00:14:07,253 --> 00:14:08,843 there was no social media. 307 00:14:09,553 --> 00:14:09,883 That's right. 308 00:14:09,883 --> 00:14:14,783 And now, we have a world that's pretty much driven by social media. 309 00:14:14,883 --> 00:14:15,193 Yeah, we do. 310 00:14:15,193 --> 00:14:17,283 And there's good and bad to that as well, isn't there? 311 00:14:17,923 --> 00:14:21,773 But in terms of pay per click, all of those platforms, Meta especially, 312 00:14:22,913 --> 00:14:28,193 has opened up new ways of reaching people that should potentially 313 00:14:28,193 --> 00:14:30,083 adore what you create and promote. 314 00:14:31,183 --> 00:14:35,153 So those things, I think every year we can say that some new opportunities come. 315 00:14:35,673 --> 00:14:36,013 Yeah. 316 00:14:36,553 --> 00:14:39,663 I don't see that changing for a while. 317 00:14:39,863 --> 00:14:40,213 Matt Edmundson: Yeah. 318 00:14:40,313 --> 00:14:41,323 No, that's very true. 319 00:14:42,613 --> 00:14:43,493 So much there. 320 00:14:43,493 --> 00:14:44,583 Phil, do me a favour. 321 00:14:44,723 --> 00:14:47,113 For those watching on video, just step slightly to your right 322 00:14:47,123 --> 00:14:48,163 so you're a bit more central. 323 00:14:48,598 --> 00:14:49,038 There we go. 324 00:14:49,708 --> 00:14:50,398 There we go. 325 00:14:51,508 --> 00:14:52,368 We're starting to lose you. 326 00:14:52,369 --> 00:14:55,718 I was talking to a white wall for a little minute there. 327 00:14:56,738 --> 00:14:57,098 How was it? 328 00:14:57,328 --> 00:14:58,588 No, not at all. 329 00:15:01,018 --> 00:15:02,728 Fascinating you're talking about YouTube. 330 00:15:02,728 --> 00:15:06,298 And the reason why I picked this up straight away is we had on the show a 331 00:15:06,298 --> 00:15:08,348 few months ago a chap called Brett Curry. 332 00:15:08,678 --> 00:15:13,638 And Brett Curry hosts an eCommerce podcast. 333 00:15:13,678 --> 00:15:15,678 OMG Commerce is his company. 334 00:15:16,418 --> 00:15:16,908 and... 335 00:15:18,503 --> 00:15:20,113 he's an absolute legend, Brett. 336 00:15:20,123 --> 00:15:24,333 He, I met him in Austin we had some food together, we caught up. 337 00:15:24,968 --> 00:15:25,698 Stayed in touch. 338 00:15:25,698 --> 00:15:26,578 Really nice guy. 339 00:15:26,688 --> 00:15:27,228 Tall guy. 340 00:15:27,238 --> 00:15:28,368 He's got eight kids. 341 00:15:28,578 --> 00:15:29,878 Eight kids. 342 00:15:30,098 --> 00:15:31,308 Yeah, that was my response as well. 343 00:15:31,628 --> 00:15:34,248 I was like, dude, have you figured out what's causing this yet? 344 00:15:34,258 --> 00:15:34,558 Do you need... 345 00:15:36,648 --> 00:15:37,648 But he's awesome. 346 00:15:37,648 --> 00:15:38,948 Him and his wife, totally in love. 347 00:15:38,948 --> 00:15:42,078 Love having a big family and just an absolute legend of a chap. 348 00:15:42,708 --> 00:15:48,808 But he was saying like you, that YouTube ads for him are the big... 349 00:15:49,553 --> 00:15:53,743 Opportunity of the moment in a lot of ways, if you can get them right. 350 00:15:54,593 --> 00:15:54,683 Sure. 351 00:15:55,253 --> 00:15:56,213 Is that what you are? 352 00:15:56,213 --> 00:15:57,443 Is that what you've found as well? 353 00:15:57,443 --> 00:15:58,734 Have you done much with YouTube ads? 354 00:16:00,043 --> 00:16:02,373 Phil Byrne: For the right brands, it's a great channel. 355 00:16:02,783 --> 00:16:04,713 So it has to be a visual brand. 356 00:16:05,113 --> 00:16:10,043 One thing I think Meta and YouTube have in common is they are great places to 357 00:16:10,043 --> 00:16:12,873 promote the positive things in life. 358 00:16:13,483 --> 00:16:18,093 So travel, some product which is going to make you look better, feel better, 359 00:16:18,993 --> 00:16:22,253 those are fantastic for video fronted. 360 00:16:23,043 --> 00:16:23,073 Ads. 361 00:16:24,333 --> 00:16:27,863 Things which are a bit more, stuff we don't want to think about. 362 00:16:27,863 --> 00:16:31,223 Health insurance, remedies to things which are not great. 363 00:16:31,283 --> 00:16:33,263 It's tougher for those kinds of products. 364 00:16:33,703 --> 00:16:38,443 But certainly YouTube, because it keeps growing so much, and people are 365 00:16:38,443 --> 00:16:43,083 drawn there for all kinds of reasons, it just has such a huge audience. 366 00:16:43,153 --> 00:16:47,033 So if you can find that way to place your ads on the right channels, on 367 00:16:47,033 --> 00:16:52,053 the right videos, that have already the audience that you seek to reach. 368 00:16:52,678 --> 00:16:53,858 It's a good channel. 369 00:16:54,328 --> 00:16:57,278 YouTube recently brought out their own version of lead ads. 370 00:16:57,368 --> 00:16:57,638 Yeah. 371 00:16:58,188 --> 00:17:02,158 And I think that's what I would say it really offers a massive opportunity to 372 00:17:02,158 --> 00:17:08,048 generate subscribers, whether that's email, SMS, and then it's all down to 373 00:17:08,048 --> 00:17:13,258 the rest of your funnel as to how great those ads are going to work out for you. 374 00:17:13,458 --> 00:17:13,888 Yeah. 375 00:17:14,278 --> 00:17:18,088 And you know that, that's where we see the opportunity most of the time. 376 00:17:18,373 --> 00:17:20,063 Matt Edmundson: Yeah, that's interesting. 377 00:17:20,063 --> 00:17:24,083 You talk about the sort of the positive life brands doing well with those 378 00:17:24,113 --> 00:17:29,323 kind of places I, and it's interesting you use that phraseology because 379 00:17:29,323 --> 00:17:30,563 I've not thought about it like that. 380 00:17:30,563 --> 00:17:32,183 And actually you go with that makes a lot of sense. 381 00:17:32,183 --> 00:17:32,423 Yes. 382 00:17:32,423 --> 00:17:34,573 Why would he, why would I try and sell life insurance? 383 00:17:34,993 --> 00:17:38,705 I'm dare say some companies don't do it successfully if they find the right 384 00:17:38,705 --> 00:17:41,831 audience that they're trying to target. 385 00:17:41,831 --> 00:17:47,613 Is YouTube rephrase it, are YouTube ads tied into the Google Ads platform 386 00:17:47,613 --> 00:17:49,643 or is it a separate distinct platform? 387 00:17:50,243 --> 00:17:54,333 Phil Byrne: So it's all part of Google Ads, part of their network, so if 388 00:17:54,333 --> 00:17:58,703 you run a Performance Max campaign, which is the newest type, the Google 389 00:17:58,703 --> 00:18:03,683 campaign, then they will automatically run your ads across everything. 390 00:18:03,693 --> 00:18:04,643 So you've got search. 391 00:18:05,088 --> 00:18:07,188 You've got the Display Network, which is when your ads 392 00:18:07,188 --> 00:18:08,698 appear on a third party site. 393 00:18:08,888 --> 00:18:10,368 And you have YouTube. 394 00:18:10,508 --> 00:18:15,708 So even if you have no video content, your ads can appear within YouTube 395 00:18:15,708 --> 00:18:18,398 search results, as a normal text ad. 396 00:18:19,098 --> 00:18:21,028 And all of those things will happen for you. 397 00:18:21,938 --> 00:18:27,688 And, Google is pushing us all into using everything on their network. 398 00:18:28,388 --> 00:18:31,258 And some of that is because, on the positive side, it does 399 00:18:31,358 --> 00:18:32,558 increase the opportunity. 400 00:18:33,288 --> 00:18:36,897 At the same time, we're going to spend more, in their point of view. 401 00:18:36,898 --> 00:18:40,668 Watching what happens and keeping an eye on which YouTube channels 402 00:18:40,698 --> 00:18:44,998 your ads appear on, assessing whether they're right or wrong, is 403 00:18:44,998 --> 00:18:48,118 all part of optimising your spender 404 00:18:48,448 --> 00:18:48,868 Matt Edmundson: as much as you can. 405 00:18:49,758 --> 00:18:51,098 Yeah, it's fascinating, isn't it? 406 00:18:52,073 --> 00:18:56,483 It's interesting to me how big YouTube now, for the longest time we've been 407 00:18:56,483 --> 00:19:00,283 saying, I say the longest time, I'm trying to think in my head, for the 408 00:19:00,283 --> 00:19:03,443 last five or six years I know I've been saying to people YouTube is the 409 00:19:03,443 --> 00:19:06,753 second largest search engine in the world and you can't ignore it, right? 410 00:19:08,668 --> 00:19:12,228 Brands can't ignore YouTube, you've got to be on YouTube in some form or another. 411 00:19:12,868 --> 00:19:14,458 Because it is so massive. 412 00:19:14,848 --> 00:19:17,388 But going back, Polytechnic days and all that sort of stuff, do you 413 00:19:17,388 --> 00:19:20,968 remember that announcement that Google bought YouTube for a billion 414 00:19:20,968 --> 00:19:24,622 dollars and we were all utterly flummoxed by why they would do that? 415 00:19:25,563 --> 00:19:26,103 Have we looked back 416 00:19:26,103 --> 00:19:26,503 Phil Byrne: now? 417 00:19:26,963 --> 00:19:28,093 It's a fantastic move. 418 00:19:29,013 --> 00:19:31,263 Matt Edmundson: One of the best business moves you've seen for a 419 00:19:31,263 --> 00:19:35,753 long time and it flummoxed everybody because no one saw it coming. 420 00:19:36,103 --> 00:19:37,643 A billion dollars for that. 421 00:19:37,983 --> 00:19:38,483 Are you mad? 422 00:19:39,243 --> 00:19:43,333 But look at what it's turned into and the money that it generates is unbelievable. 423 00:19:44,153 --> 00:19:44,883 Phil Byrne: Absolutely. 424 00:19:45,353 --> 00:19:47,663 And this is you and I, Matt, sounding like old men. 425 00:19:48,283 --> 00:19:51,743 Look, a billion dollars in today's world is not that big anymore. 426 00:19:51,843 --> 00:19:52,803 Yeah, it's true. 427 00:19:53,433 --> 00:19:54,543 Matt Edmundson: It was back then, right? 428 00:19:56,763 --> 00:20:00,033 I don't, I'm trying to remember, I don't know if I'd ever heard of a billion 429 00:20:00,033 --> 00:20:01,893 dollar company buyout before that. 430 00:20:02,503 --> 00:20:04,813 I think there must have been one. 431 00:20:05,503 --> 00:20:08,413 But it was so new and it was so surprising. 432 00:20:09,223 --> 00:20:12,573 And yet here we are all just going, whoever made that decision is an utter 433 00:20:12,573 --> 00:20:14,753 genius, and um, and then everyone's going. 434 00:20:15,523 --> 00:20:19,663 How did Google have a billion dollars just to spend on a company like that and 435 00:20:19,663 --> 00:20:21,813 not even, where did it get that money? 436 00:20:21,833 --> 00:20:24,583 And you just think Google in itself is a pretty genius 437 00:20:24,633 --> 00:20:26,003 money making machine, isn't it? 438 00:20:26,013 --> 00:20:27,623 So hats off to them. 439 00:20:27,733 --> 00:20:29,713 You love them or hate them, they've done an amazing job. 440 00:20:30,383 --> 00:20:33,783 So tell us a bit about you've mentioned Google Max Performance 441 00:20:33,783 --> 00:20:35,223 Max a couple of times. 442 00:20:36,013 --> 00:20:38,963 For those that might not know, just explain what that is, cause that's 443 00:20:38,963 --> 00:20:40,943 a fairly recent event, isn't it? 444 00:20:40,943 --> 00:20:41,502 It's a... 445 00:20:42,093 --> 00:20:45,913 Phil Byrne: So Performance Max is a new type of campaign, which Google 446 00:20:45,913 --> 00:20:50,543 is continuing to grow the options within this type of campaign, what 447 00:20:50,543 --> 00:20:52,103 we'll call a Google smart campaign. 448 00:20:52,103 --> 00:20:56,803 So what we're doing is we're giving Google more license and freedom to 449 00:20:56,803 --> 00:21:03,823 spend our budget on our target market, keywords, audiences as it sees fit. 450 00:21:03,983 --> 00:21:04,283 Yeah. 451 00:21:04,303 --> 00:21:08,872 That was what we used to do in pay per click is we would control every keyword. 452 00:21:09,177 --> 00:21:12,987 That Google would approach, we might control every third party website 453 00:21:13,187 --> 00:21:14,797 if we're doing Google Display. 454 00:21:15,407 --> 00:21:18,877 And the same on YouTube, we would control every channel and video 455 00:21:19,517 --> 00:21:21,057 that the ad would appear on. 456 00:21:21,547 --> 00:21:22,897 In PMAX, it's different. 457 00:21:23,077 --> 00:21:26,717 We're allowing Google this ability to spend on our behalf. 458 00:21:27,247 --> 00:21:32,847 The theory being that Google is able to track our potential customers better, 459 00:21:33,397 --> 00:21:39,987 cross network, understand, for its own larger dataset, where our audience sits. 460 00:21:41,187 --> 00:21:48,587 And in the end, give us more return at lowest cost per acquisition or 461 00:21:48,597 --> 00:21:52,827 lead, whatever we're seeking to do and make our campaigns work better. 462 00:21:53,787 --> 00:21:57,467 Google also claims, I think is correct on this, that it reaches more people. 463 00:21:57,557 --> 00:21:57,877 Yeah. 464 00:21:58,667 --> 00:22:00,907 And on all of these advantages. 465 00:22:01,717 --> 00:22:04,957 Allow people who can make Performance Max work. 466 00:22:05,017 --> 00:22:05,347 Yeah. 467 00:22:05,827 --> 00:22:08,587 It does allow them to scale to a higher level. 468 00:22:08,677 --> 00:22:08,977 Yeah. 469 00:22:09,097 --> 00:22:10,357 On, we had some before. 470 00:22:11,377 --> 00:22:17,687 If we cannot get Performance Max to work and not everybody does, then we still have 471 00:22:17,692 --> 00:22:21,232 to be able to go in there and optimize and learn what did work and what didn't. 472 00:22:21,842 --> 00:22:26,262 And the downside to performance marks is the data is much more hidden, so 473 00:22:26,262 --> 00:22:28,092 we're not able to go very granular. 474 00:22:28,332 --> 00:22:28,422 Okay. 475 00:22:28,422 --> 00:22:30,432 As we did before, the raw ways. 476 00:22:31,122 --> 00:22:36,182 to Research a bit deeper, often using third party tools, which help us dissect 477 00:22:36,332 --> 00:22:38,012 what happened on Performance Max. 478 00:22:38,602 --> 00:22:43,832 But it's really a trade off between having less data to look at, but 479 00:22:43,842 --> 00:22:46,572 having more opportunity in the end. 480 00:22:48,102 --> 00:22:48,902 Matt Edmundson: Yeah, it's interesting. 481 00:22:48,912 --> 00:22:55,202 And before, what do you think personally, Performance Max, does it achieve what 482 00:22:55,202 --> 00:22:57,152 Google set out to achieve or not? 483 00:22:57,992 --> 00:23:02,342 Phil Byrne: I think it has to a large extent, we found for a lot of our clients. 484 00:23:02,697 --> 00:23:03,687 It's helped them grow. 485 00:23:04,677 --> 00:23:06,417 We do lots of shopping campaigns. 486 00:23:06,757 --> 00:23:13,697 Where Performance Max has really brought success is when we've broken it down 487 00:23:13,737 --> 00:23:16,087 to promote the best selling products. 488 00:23:16,087 --> 00:23:21,427 So one thing that works out in eCommerce, to dissect that a bit, is the 80 20 rule. 489 00:23:21,497 --> 00:23:21,747 Yeah. 490 00:23:21,777 --> 00:23:26,507 So 80 percent of our income comes from 20 percent of the products, sometimes less. 491 00:23:26,647 --> 00:23:27,137 Yeah. 492 00:23:27,407 --> 00:23:28,347 Every campaign. 493 00:23:28,627 --> 00:23:32,117 Whether it's Performance Max or Standard has a better chance of 494 00:23:32,117 --> 00:23:34,447 success if we focus on the 20%. 495 00:23:35,267 --> 00:23:36,667 That's how, that's where we're going to grow. 496 00:23:37,447 --> 00:23:42,867 Performance Max I think has helped most brands grow who do that. 497 00:23:43,137 --> 00:23:43,407 Yeah. 498 00:23:43,447 --> 00:23:46,547 If they try and use Performance Max to sell things that didn't 499 00:23:46,547 --> 00:23:49,157 sell so well before, it's tough. 500 00:23:49,377 --> 00:23:49,657 Yeah. 501 00:23:49,707 --> 00:23:51,597 The pace that tends to scale. 502 00:23:52,137 --> 00:23:57,357 What's happening already with issues with a product, with the 503 00:23:57,357 --> 00:23:59,617 business itself, it'll scale up. 504 00:24:00,517 --> 00:24:05,207 We have to make business focused decisions to make PMAX work. 505 00:24:06,177 --> 00:24:09,317 I think another difference is a performance max needs 506 00:24:09,317 --> 00:24:10,507 what we call signals. 507 00:24:10,827 --> 00:24:15,367 So a good signal is a segment of your audience, which is 508 00:24:15,367 --> 00:24:17,327 exactly who you want to reach. 509 00:24:18,857 --> 00:24:22,167 And that's different to keyword optimization that we 510 00:24:22,167 --> 00:24:24,507 traditionally did on Google Ads. 511 00:24:24,807 --> 00:24:30,427 So the better we are at segmenting out our audience and sending just the portion 512 00:24:31,167 --> 00:24:37,017 that has bought or added to cart or done something positive around the specific 513 00:24:37,017 --> 00:24:42,627 products in that campaign, that'll help us make Performance Max perform better. 514 00:24:43,127 --> 00:24:47,327 If we give it everyone that's here at the site, then the signal is not strong. 515 00:24:48,327 --> 00:24:50,547 We have to think of it in a different way, too. 516 00:24:50,617 --> 00:24:50,917 Okay. 517 00:24:51,247 --> 00:24:53,357 Matt Edmundson: So what's performance max? 518 00:24:53,477 --> 00:24:58,497 I'm just thinking Phil, for people that are maybe starting out in eCommerce 519 00:24:58,497 --> 00:25:02,417 and they, they've not got the budget necessarily to go get an agency involved. 520 00:25:03,932 --> 00:25:07,622 Working from their, the back room, as it were, selling the products online. 521 00:25:08,842 --> 00:25:11,802 Would Performance Max be worth looking at or not really? 522 00:25:12,512 --> 00:25:13,362 Phil Byrne: I think it's tougher. 523 00:25:13,452 --> 00:25:14,762 So it's a brand new ad account. 524 00:25:15,432 --> 00:25:19,232 You better off starting with standard shopping or standard search and 525 00:25:19,232 --> 00:25:23,682 then getting a few conversions and other signals in that ad account. 526 00:25:23,802 --> 00:25:24,062 Yeah. 527 00:25:24,092 --> 00:25:28,732 So the more conversions, the more data it has, the better you're going 528 00:25:28,732 --> 00:25:30,162 to expand into Performance Max. 529 00:25:30,812 --> 00:25:31,092 Yeah. 530 00:25:32,082 --> 00:25:34,322 That's probably the best advice for something, 531 00:25:35,042 --> 00:25:39,432 Matt Edmundson: Yeah, fair enough and then, I guess to spring it on from 532 00:25:39,432 --> 00:25:46,192 that, if I'm just starting out, at what point from your experience does it make 533 00:25:46,202 --> 00:25:53,402 sense for the startup to reach out to an agency and say, please help us with 534 00:25:53,402 --> 00:25:56,922 PPC now what point on the trajectory should I be thinking about that? 535 00:25:58,437 --> 00:26:02,417 Phil Byrne: I think when you've done at least three to six months worth of 536 00:26:02,417 --> 00:26:09,097 pay per click, sometimes more, since when you're seeing sales happen, people 537 00:26:09,107 --> 00:26:14,787 show interest in what you're selling, and you feel that you don't have the 538 00:26:14,787 --> 00:26:16,972 time, As well, that's another factor. 539 00:26:17,942 --> 00:26:19,482 Run all of your ads yourself. 540 00:26:20,342 --> 00:26:25,622 I think if you are quite technically minded, you can learn how to run 541 00:26:25,622 --> 00:26:26,902 pay per click and you can do it. 542 00:26:27,392 --> 00:26:29,532 You should do it yourself for as long as you can. 543 00:26:29,533 --> 00:26:34,492 I think a brand owner always understands their products better than any agency can. 544 00:26:34,952 --> 00:26:38,102 But when you start to see sales, your time begins to diminish. 545 00:26:38,682 --> 00:26:42,292 You feel like you can scale, but you're not able to with the 546 00:26:42,292 --> 00:26:43,562 techniques that you've used. 547 00:26:44,512 --> 00:26:44,802 Great 548 00:26:44,802 --> 00:26:46,482 Matt Edmundson: time to go to an agency. 549 00:26:46,522 --> 00:26:47,702 Get an agency involved. 550 00:26:47,742 --> 00:26:48,782 Yeah, no fair play. 551 00:26:49,322 --> 00:26:55,082 It was, I remember the day that because we used to do PPC in house. 552 00:26:55,122 --> 00:26:57,762 Because when PPC first came out, it was the easiest thing in the world to do. 553 00:26:58,422 --> 00:26:59,022 So easy. 554 00:26:59,023 --> 00:27:01,052 It was just ridiculous, really. 555 00:27:01,942 --> 00:27:04,952 In fact, we built an eCommerce brand just on the basis of the 556 00:27:04,952 --> 00:27:06,082 fact that PPC was really easy. 557 00:27:07,152 --> 00:27:09,482 Okay, let's just buy the ads for this because they're so 558 00:27:09,482 --> 00:27:10,582 cheap and we make so much. 559 00:27:10,592 --> 00:27:12,542 Why would we not do this and to scale it out, right? 560 00:27:13,032 --> 00:27:14,522 Those days didn't last very long, Phil. 561 00:27:16,872 --> 00:27:17,972 Phil Byrne: Wild West days. 562 00:27:18,472 --> 00:27:20,602 Matt Edmundson: Such is the shame, but you're like, oh, geez. 563 00:27:22,522 --> 00:27:25,292 But I remember our default. 564 00:27:25,293 --> 00:27:27,402 We just did them in house and we were spending like 20, 30 565 00:27:27,402 --> 00:27:28,862 grand a month on Google ads. 566 00:27:28,872 --> 00:27:31,492 And they were like, at some point we looked at it and went. 567 00:27:32,672 --> 00:27:36,082 We have got to be better off outsourcing this because people are 568 00:27:36,082 --> 00:27:39,452 now, they're experts and we've got enough budget and enough data to 569 00:27:39,452 --> 00:27:42,362 get the experts to tweak what we do because we just weren't doing it. 570 00:27:42,362 --> 00:27:47,972 We were so busy doing other things and I remember when we moved over to 571 00:27:47,972 --> 00:27:54,652 an agency, the difference it made was night and day and we spent half as much 572 00:27:54,652 --> 00:27:56,272 but got four times the amount of sales. 573 00:27:56,962 --> 00:28:03,212 And it wasn't because we didn't know what we were doing, we just 574 00:28:03,212 --> 00:28:04,812 were not experts in that field. 575 00:28:04,952 --> 00:28:07,542 And so when, like you say, budget and time allowed, it's I'm going to 576 00:28:07,542 --> 00:28:09,622 step aside and let the experts loose. 577 00:28:10,152 --> 00:28:14,442 So even today, even in our eCommerce companies now paid media. 578 00:28:14,892 --> 00:28:16,862 is for me and is outsourced. 579 00:28:16,862 --> 00:28:18,252 It's always a specialist thing that I get. 580 00:28:18,252 --> 00:28:21,742 I don't need to figure that out internally, we internally we can 581 00:28:21,752 --> 00:28:26,182 do whatever email marketing or we can do the website maintenance 582 00:28:26,182 --> 00:28:27,062 and all that sort of stuff. 583 00:28:27,692 --> 00:28:30,102 But yeah I just think you need the experts. 584 00:28:30,342 --> 00:28:31,532 Personally, it's my experience. 585 00:28:31,562 --> 00:28:34,122 You need the experts on with when it comes to PPC, just mainly because 586 00:28:34,122 --> 00:28:35,712 it changes so quickly as well, 587 00:28:36,262 --> 00:28:36,372 Phil Byrne: it does. 588 00:28:37,222 --> 00:28:40,677 And I think what does happen when you work with many clients, You 589 00:28:40,677 --> 00:28:44,857 begin to see the same problems, but with different products, different 590 00:28:44,857 --> 00:28:46,017 brands, different countries. 591 00:28:46,987 --> 00:28:48,807 Sometimes, they're network issues. 592 00:28:49,302 --> 00:28:53,072 So sometimes the whole network has a problem with a certain type of ad, 593 00:28:53,742 --> 00:28:58,052 and as an agency you can act in the day to save all of your clients some 594 00:28:58,062 --> 00:29:04,742 spend if there's an issue, or if we see that suddenly this month pay per click 595 00:29:04,742 --> 00:29:08,202 is really cheap, January for example is a cheap month for pay per click, 596 00:29:09,332 --> 00:29:13,697 then if we're selling, let's up the budget, let's do something about it. 597 00:29:13,977 --> 00:29:18,027 All of that ability to react and to bring in the latest 598 00:29:18,027 --> 00:29:19,647 techniques and the latest changes. 599 00:29:19,927 --> 00:29:23,777 We have a new type of Google campaign launch in this month called Demand Gen. 600 00:29:24,907 --> 00:29:28,337 It's a really a reboot of their Discovery app, but it'll 601 00:29:28,337 --> 00:29:30,137 bring change and opportunity. 602 00:29:30,217 --> 00:29:33,787 Yeah, and just you experienced with your own eCom brand. 603 00:29:34,237 --> 00:29:37,242 There's always that time That kind of two, three months where 604 00:29:37,242 --> 00:29:42,182 something new that everybody catches on to, until you have opportunity. 605 00:29:42,183 --> 00:29:46,202 And then six months down the line, everyone's talking about 606 00:29:46,202 --> 00:29:48,662 it, and that space has gone. 607 00:29:49,592 --> 00:29:52,922 And because pay per click is an auction, really what we're 608 00:29:52,922 --> 00:29:54,612 doing is trying to find space. 609 00:29:54,712 --> 00:29:55,012 Yeah. 610 00:29:55,492 --> 00:29:56,502 We can control. 611 00:29:56,717 --> 00:30:00,427 The Cost Per Click, where we can reach an audience that no one quite 612 00:30:00,427 --> 00:30:04,207 now is, or not enough people are reaching to push the auction up 613 00:30:04,607 --> 00:30:04,877 Matt Edmundson: too high. 614 00:30:06,267 --> 00:30:06,907 That's really good. 615 00:30:06,947 --> 00:30:07,527 That's awesome. 616 00:30:07,527 --> 00:30:11,037 Cause that's actually one of my questions was, there were these sort 617 00:30:11,037 --> 00:30:14,157 of wild west days where you could just, almost write your own check. 618 00:30:14,177 --> 00:30:17,417 And part of me, part of my question is what's the next wild west? 619 00:30:17,427 --> 00:30:21,367 Because there's always going to be one, and as eCommerce entrepreneurs, we spend 620 00:30:21,367 --> 00:30:24,087 hours trying to figure out what it is. 621 00:30:24,087 --> 00:30:26,307 Is there something here that we can capitalize on? 622 00:30:26,977 --> 00:30:31,767 frOm a PPC point of view, is that what you think is the next Wild West? 623 00:30:33,367 --> 00:30:36,057 Phil Byrne: Demand Jan . It could, it will be for a little while, Google is 624 00:30:36,057 --> 00:30:42,897 so big and so many people are now very aware of something new that Google does. 625 00:30:42,957 --> 00:30:43,257 Yeah. 626 00:30:43,867 --> 00:30:45,647 All the places, all the networks. 627 00:30:46,742 --> 00:30:48,702 Are also developing their own pay per click too. 628 00:30:48,702 --> 00:30:52,232 So TikTok, a year ago, became the new Wild West. 629 00:30:52,233 --> 00:30:54,192 A little bit more than a year ago. 630 00:30:55,132 --> 00:30:59,142 The networks right now who are pushing new pay per click platforms 631 00:30:59,142 --> 00:31:01,232 through are Quora and Reddit. 632 00:31:02,652 --> 00:31:07,242 Both of those, if your brand is questioned, informational related, or 633 00:31:07,822 --> 00:31:12,842 you are a company who sells something relevant to something which is discussed 634 00:31:12,842 --> 00:31:15,642 often, both of those hold opportunity. 635 00:31:15,692 --> 00:31:16,032 Yeah. 636 00:31:16,827 --> 00:31:21,837 Pinterest is pushing very hard to take some of the audience away from Meta. 637 00:31:21,837 --> 00:31:24,627 So right now they have a pretty good offer where they'll do 638 00:31:24,627 --> 00:31:26,177 all your creative for free. 639 00:31:27,187 --> 00:31:32,307 And if you spend more than 2, 000 in a month, they'll give you an extra 640 00:31:32,317 --> 00:31:34,267 50 percent of that credited back. 641 00:31:35,377 --> 00:31:39,117 So you know, it's a good time to test Pinterest if you 642 00:31:39,117 --> 00:31:40,587 feel it's relevant to you. 643 00:31:41,657 --> 00:31:42,417 bUt then, things like that. 644 00:31:43,412 --> 00:31:47,662 New platforms, meaning you need a profile, you need to have an account 645 00:31:47,762 --> 00:31:50,632 that's updated, enough to show presence. 646 00:31:51,032 --> 00:31:52,352 So they all create work. 647 00:31:53,302 --> 00:31:55,312 And so it all again, Matt, comes down to time. 648 00:31:56,292 --> 00:32:01,292 How much time do you have in your team, in yourself, and which one's right for you? 649 00:32:01,862 --> 00:32:03,492 But there's always an opportunity. 650 00:32:03,982 --> 00:32:07,622 The other one that I think, especially if you're targeting the American 651 00:32:07,622 --> 00:32:10,582 market, that has some interesting things going on is Microsoft. 652 00:32:10,842 --> 00:32:11,132 Okay. 653 00:32:11,152 --> 00:32:14,042 They've been buying so many other sites and, they bought LinkedIn. 654 00:32:14,947 --> 00:32:15,617 A couple of years ago. 655 00:32:16,367 --> 00:32:19,927 So they are the only place that you can reach people on LinkedIn 656 00:32:20,467 --> 00:32:22,447 via ads outside of LinkedIn. 657 00:32:23,497 --> 00:32:27,327 If you're selling B2B, there's probably opportunity there too. 658 00:32:28,277 --> 00:32:32,127 But all of these networks constantly buy things, constantly bring new things 659 00:32:32,127 --> 00:32:36,887 out, and each one of them creates that opportunity for a little while. 660 00:32:36,888 --> 00:32:39,397 And then we have to find the next opportunity. 661 00:32:41,107 --> 00:32:41,957 Matt Edmundson: I'm loving this. 662 00:32:42,207 --> 00:32:46,157 I especially I'm loving this because I we jumped on Pinterest recently. 663 00:32:46,477 --> 00:32:48,977 Because again, I, we've mentioned it on the show before, we just thought 664 00:32:48,977 --> 00:32:54,107 Pinterest was a really interesting platform for our brands right now and that 665 00:32:54,117 --> 00:32:55,737 there is some great opportunity there. 666 00:32:55,737 --> 00:32:57,967 And yeah, we've definitely been playing around on Pinterest and 667 00:32:57,967 --> 00:32:59,137 getting some good results so far. 668 00:32:59,137 --> 00:33:02,407 I think we probably should throw some more money at it and scale 669 00:33:02,457 --> 00:33:06,117 it maybe a little bit quicker not thought about Quora or Reddit. 670 00:33:06,177 --> 00:33:08,037 So look, I got that in my notes. 671 00:33:08,037 --> 00:33:10,497 We'll be having conversations tomorrow with the team, Phil, no doubt. 672 00:33:12,377 --> 00:33:16,707 And then obviously Microsoft in the UK in the US is, you're never going 673 00:33:16,707 --> 00:33:18,027 to get rid of Microsoft, are you? 674 00:33:18,117 --> 00:33:20,467 It's always going to be there and so why would you not do that? 675 00:33:21,157 --> 00:33:22,837 Now there's some fascinating information there. 676 00:33:22,837 --> 00:33:27,564 Phil, listen, one of the questions we've got in from cohort um, if you were 677 00:33:27,564 --> 00:33:32,497 starting an eCommerce business today from scratch yourself, it's just you and let's 678 00:33:32,507 --> 00:33:37,977 say, I'm just looking around my desk for anything that's interesting pens. 679 00:33:38,907 --> 00:33:40,307 I'm going to pick up a pen, right? 680 00:33:40,317 --> 00:33:44,387 So you've got a passion for pens, the website passionforpens. 681 00:33:44,437 --> 00:33:46,787 com, by Phil. 682 00:33:46,997 --> 00:33:48,277 Phil's a passion for pens. 683 00:33:49,057 --> 00:33:55,297 But a product like a pen or something like that, and you were starting up, 684 00:33:56,077 --> 00:34:01,307 how would you, how would PPC be part of your strategy knowing what you know? 685 00:34:02,337 --> 00:34:05,067 So that if some, obviously someone's starting up here, if they. 686 00:34:06,087 --> 00:34:08,207 I guess they just want to piggyback what you would do a 687 00:34:08,207 --> 00:34:09,187 little bit if that makes sense. 688 00:34:09,197 --> 00:34:10,557 So what would you do there? 689 00:34:11,862 --> 00:34:14,522 Phil Byrne: Definitely do Google Ads, because Google Ads is the 690 00:34:14,522 --> 00:34:18,792 place we reach a customer who's furthest down the line ready to buy. 691 00:34:20,412 --> 00:34:24,462 We want to find the most relevant searches, so our type of pen, plus 692 00:34:24,492 --> 00:34:26,293 colour, so it's very relevant. 693 00:34:27,353 --> 00:34:29,683 Shopping feed, get Google Shopping running. 694 00:34:30,373 --> 00:34:35,393 And what I would do is monitor the traffic from shopping and search 695 00:34:35,653 --> 00:34:37,153 and watch what they do on the site. 696 00:34:38,713 --> 00:34:43,363 The main two sides of optimization nowadays are the ads, also 697 00:34:43,363 --> 00:34:44,483 what's happening on the site. 698 00:34:44,713 --> 00:34:45,033 Yeah. 699 00:34:45,143 --> 00:34:48,283 So people drop out at the cart too often. 700 00:34:48,443 --> 00:34:48,933 Yeah. 701 00:34:49,213 --> 00:34:53,033 They reach a page and they disappear because it's not quite what they're after. 702 00:34:53,913 --> 00:34:56,303 aNd that traffic, because it's the most intentional. 703 00:34:56,988 --> 00:34:58,698 We want to watch that traffic a bit more. 704 00:34:58,818 --> 00:34:59,078 Yeah. 705 00:34:59,578 --> 00:35:03,548 What I would also do is run remarketing on Netta because it's the best 706 00:35:03,548 --> 00:35:05,288 place to run remarketing online. 707 00:35:05,628 --> 00:35:07,598 The ad is the biggest space we get online. 708 00:35:08,748 --> 00:35:16,228 iF we can find a relevant YouTube channel or YouTube presenters who reflect 709 00:35:16,228 --> 00:35:20,048 something about our pens, which we want to connect with, so whether that's 710 00:35:20,088 --> 00:35:24,748 calligraphy or something else that we might want to connect to, I think that'd 711 00:35:24,758 --> 00:35:26,588 be a great place to run some lead gen. 712 00:35:27,753 --> 00:35:32,073 I would do the same on Meta, so Facebook lead ads, which in turn generate email 713 00:35:32,073 --> 00:35:36,953 for us, that we can, or SMS, that we can begin to nurture across time. 714 00:35:37,813 --> 00:35:41,123 And then when we have a Google shopping feed, like I think one of 715 00:35:41,123 --> 00:35:45,943 the underutilized things online is a shopping feed, because once we have one, 716 00:35:46,323 --> 00:35:48,133 we can then take it to other places. 717 00:35:49,033 --> 00:35:51,693 So all affiliate networks take a shopping feed. 718 00:35:52,433 --> 00:35:52,673 Okay. 719 00:35:52,673 --> 00:35:57,183 So a great place for us to try affiliate marketing is to just upload our shopping 720 00:35:57,188 --> 00:36:02,543 feed and let those stream onto third party sites that are gonna send traffic 721 00:36:02,543 --> 00:36:05,473 to our site and help our remarketing. 722 00:36:06,153 --> 00:36:10,448 'cause really a lot of the way we see external third party marketing 723 00:36:10,448 --> 00:36:13,808 traffic in terms of pay per click is we can remarket to it. 724 00:36:15,588 --> 00:36:19,078 You had a really good interview with a, an influencer marketeer 725 00:36:19,888 --> 00:36:23,728 who was really asking everybody to see influencers as a storefront. 726 00:36:23,758 --> 00:36:24,088 Yeah. 727 00:36:24,748 --> 00:36:28,838 And I think that was a great phrase, that's also what a 728 00:36:28,838 --> 00:36:30,348 shopping feed allows us to do. 729 00:36:30,858 --> 00:36:35,428 We can go beyond our affiliate partner sites, we can go to third party sites. 730 00:36:35,638 --> 00:36:41,308 One of our clients, um, put his shopping feed on DIY. 731 00:36:41,338 --> 00:36:43,058 com, which is owned by B& Q. 732 00:36:44,158 --> 00:36:47,678 And that brought a whole new source of traffic onto his own 733 00:36:47,688 --> 00:36:51,968 website that generated sales, gave us traffic to remarket to. 734 00:36:52,458 --> 00:36:54,378 And just get even more traffic in general. 735 00:36:55,038 --> 00:36:59,028 So in the beginning, with Pay Per Click, we want to generate highly relevant 736 00:36:59,038 --> 00:37:04,458 traffic, watch what it does on our site, but we also want to use the assets we 737 00:37:04,478 --> 00:37:09,208 create for Pay Per Click, the feed, the images, the videos, in as many 738 00:37:09,208 --> 00:37:13,918 places as we can, all within the budget that we have, which is the tough part. 739 00:37:15,688 --> 00:37:16,698 So that's what I'll do. 740 00:37:17,468 --> 00:37:23,618 And I think every eCommerce site has to try and grab subscribers nowadays. 741 00:37:23,668 --> 00:37:24,008 Yeah. 742 00:37:24,508 --> 00:37:27,218 To make the most of that click that we've just paid for. 743 00:37:27,628 --> 00:37:31,218 So if people aren't ready to buy, can we get them to sign up? 744 00:37:31,298 --> 00:37:31,588 Yeah. 745 00:37:31,648 --> 00:37:35,138 Can we do something to give us the opportunity to market to those people 746 00:37:35,498 --> 00:37:36,848 for the next six months or more? 747 00:37:37,568 --> 00:37:39,058 And that's how I would play that. 748 00:37:39,058 --> 00:37:40,311 All in all. 749 00:37:40,311 --> 00:37:40,729 Top 750 00:37:40,729 --> 00:37:42,658 Matt Edmundson: tip, top advice there. 751 00:37:42,658 --> 00:37:46,458 I love that getting the subscribers the email addresses, especially so you 752 00:37:46,458 --> 00:37:48,518 can re, re target them, re market them. 753 00:37:48,868 --> 00:37:49,488 Would that... 754 00:37:49,658 --> 00:37:53,888 Those things you talked about, the Google ads, the remarketing on meta, 755 00:37:54,158 --> 00:38:00,158 YouTube channel lead gen meta lead ads and distribution of your shopping feed. 756 00:38:00,948 --> 00:38:04,428 Would that apply for say, a digital product? 757 00:38:04,428 --> 00:38:06,918 So we get a lot of people listening to the show who are doing now 758 00:38:06,918 --> 00:38:11,608 digital products, like the online courses or the like the memberships 759 00:38:11,848 --> 00:38:13,318 fitness would be a classic one. 760 00:38:13,318 --> 00:38:15,148 I'd come join my fitness group and all that sort of stuff. 761 00:38:15,148 --> 00:38:16,768 Would that apply to those as well? 762 00:38:18,163 --> 00:38:22,683 Phil Byrne: It'd be slightly different, so Google really does not want us to sell 763 00:38:22,693 --> 00:38:24,823 digital products through shopping feeds. 764 00:38:25,263 --> 00:38:30,803 People do find third party ways to make that happen, but but digital 765 00:38:30,803 --> 00:38:34,733 products is all usually need driven, so usually a digital product 766 00:38:34,993 --> 00:38:39,942 fixes a problem, a question, an element of training that we need. 767 00:38:40,223 --> 00:38:43,483 So really we want to target, search is our most important 768 00:38:43,493 --> 00:38:44,817 thing in terms of Google ads. 769 00:38:45,108 --> 00:38:50,208 YouTube, again, can we find channels, spaces that address the audience we're 770 00:38:50,208 --> 00:38:51,868 trying to reach to hit the same issues. 771 00:38:53,398 --> 00:38:58,788 Meta is a great place to sell things which are educational or resolving a 772 00:38:58,788 --> 00:39:00,248 health issue, if it happens to be that. 773 00:39:01,338 --> 00:39:05,088 And you would just play it slightly without the shopping feed there. 774 00:39:05,088 --> 00:39:06,217 The affiliate side... 775 00:39:06,888 --> 00:39:11,588 It's a bit tougher, but the influencer side is highly relevant because we 776 00:39:11,588 --> 00:39:13,508 do have lots of influencers pushing. 777 00:39:13,678 --> 00:39:16,228 Yeah, you have certain things that we're trying to learn. 778 00:39:17,038 --> 00:39:21,588 The one thing I missed out of the eCommerce side is Amazon because Amazon 779 00:39:21,638 --> 00:39:25,348 is such a huge part of the internet now. 780 00:39:25,398 --> 00:39:28,507 They are actually the biggest buyer of Google Ads. 781 00:39:28,588 --> 00:39:31,573 So often our biggest competitor is in Google Shopping can 782 00:39:31,593 --> 00:39:33,003 be our product on Amazon. 783 00:39:33,363 --> 00:39:33,513 Matt Edmundson: Ha. 784 00:39:34,273 --> 00:39:36,053 Yeah, beggars belief, but yeah, no, fair enough. 785 00:39:36,053 --> 00:39:36,963 That makes a lot of sense. 786 00:39:39,013 --> 00:39:41,453 So how do we deal with that? 787 00:39:42,873 --> 00:39:43,803 With the Amazon side. 788 00:39:43,803 --> 00:39:44,093 Yeah. 789 00:39:44,093 --> 00:39:47,623 Amazon buying Google AdWords a lot cheaper than IMI, I've no doubt. 790 00:39:48,263 --> 00:39:51,213 Selling the same product, competing for the space. 791 00:39:51,213 --> 00:39:54,183 How do I guess if I'm an established brand, this could be a problem. 792 00:39:54,183 --> 00:39:56,673 It's definitely been a problem for us in the past, you're how do I. 793 00:39:57,213 --> 00:39:58,363 How do I compete with that? 794 00:39:58,363 --> 00:40:01,723 Or how do I what's our strategy for getting people to click us rather than 795 00:40:01,723 --> 00:40:04,413 Amazon, even though we're going to pay more money, probably be slightly lower 796 00:40:04,413 --> 00:40:06,593 down what's some of your tips there? 797 00:40:07,963 --> 00:40:09,473 Phil Byrne: First thing is to bid against them. 798 00:40:09,893 --> 00:40:12,873 Because your Amazon sale is going to cost you 15 percent for 799 00:40:12,873 --> 00:40:13,963 whatever their commission is. 800 00:40:14,093 --> 00:40:14,453 Yeah. 801 00:40:14,683 --> 00:40:15,973 So you have that budget to beat. 802 00:40:16,963 --> 00:40:21,733 Probably the most important thing is to have something that's different about the 803 00:40:21,733 --> 00:40:24,103 product purchase on your site to Amazon. 804 00:40:24,963 --> 00:40:26,403 Amazon is tough to compete with. 805 00:40:26,433 --> 00:40:26,673 Yeah. 806 00:40:26,723 --> 00:40:27,043 On price. 807 00:40:27,943 --> 00:40:34,063 Often they are actually cheaper than a lot of the same products on a company's site. 808 00:40:34,593 --> 00:40:36,223 But this is something else that we can offer. 809 00:40:36,573 --> 00:40:41,443 Whether it's additional freebie or something additional to that 810 00:40:41,443 --> 00:40:45,813 product itself, which is only available on the site so we have 811 00:40:45,813 --> 00:40:47,643 to give it some kind of uniqueness. 812 00:40:47,643 --> 00:40:49,023 So then it's real choice. 813 00:40:49,213 --> 00:40:49,493 Yeah. 814 00:40:50,303 --> 00:40:58,213 It's not just price And people really, and I would say a lot of consumers 815 00:40:58,773 --> 00:41:03,018 actually trust Amazon more than the do end brand, cos, they tried and trusted. 816 00:41:03,098 --> 00:41:04,438 They know they're going to get a refund. 817 00:41:04,438 --> 00:41:05,398 They're going to be here tomorrow. 818 00:41:05,618 --> 00:41:06,088 Yeah. 819 00:41:06,428 --> 00:41:07,928 All these things are strands. 820 00:41:07,988 --> 00:41:10,378 So we have to create something on our own side. 821 00:41:10,648 --> 00:41:11,048 Yeah. 822 00:41:11,428 --> 00:41:12,248 Differentiators. 823 00:41:12,828 --> 00:41:14,068 Matt Edmundson: Yeah, no, absolutely. 824 00:41:14,108 --> 00:41:15,938 That's that was our strategy. 825 00:41:16,078 --> 00:41:18,398 You've got to, you've got to create a compelling difference, right? 826 00:41:18,408 --> 00:41:20,848 You've got to increase the value in the mind of the perceived 827 00:41:20,908 --> 00:41:22,198 the perceived mind of the buyer. 828 00:41:22,198 --> 00:41:26,008 And it's interesting, all these things you now have to think about, because again, 829 00:41:26,058 --> 00:41:28,968 I'm going back to when it first started, so I'll just set it and forget it. 830 00:41:29,218 --> 00:41:32,178 But now it's, you've got to be on top of it a little bit. 831 00:41:32,188 --> 00:41:33,778 You've got to be watching this every day. 832 00:41:33,788 --> 00:41:35,978 You've got to be checking the budgets, the performance, what's 833 00:41:35,978 --> 00:41:37,178 working, what's not working. 834 00:41:37,918 --> 00:41:41,738 Plus, you've then got to stay on top of things like what the latest trends are, 835 00:41:41,748 --> 00:41:43,008 where's all this sort of stuff coming out. 836 00:41:43,338 --> 00:41:48,718 What sort of some of the publications or feeds or sites you followed stay 837 00:41:48,718 --> 00:41:50,458 up to date with the whole thing? 838 00:41:50,958 --> 00:41:51,388 So 839 00:41:51,548 --> 00:41:52,708 Phil Byrne: On the Google ad side. 840 00:41:53,148 --> 00:41:55,538 There's a great American company called Solutions Aid, 841 00:41:55,768 --> 00:41:57,898 you might have heard of them. 842 00:41:57,898 --> 00:42:01,588 There's a brilliant UK Google Ads guy called Ed Leake. 843 00:42:02,448 --> 00:42:05,368 So he has a Facebook group on Google Ads. 844 00:42:05,388 --> 00:42:10,028 He also has his own app, which can help you run your ads. 845 00:42:10,758 --> 00:42:13,858 And then a lot of the things I tend to stay ahead of outside of that, 846 00:42:14,248 --> 00:42:15,768 because I'm really a Google Ads guy. 847 00:42:16,078 --> 00:42:20,288 Some of my team are more meta, more social media ads focused. 848 00:42:20,988 --> 00:42:24,268 so I tend to stay ahead of Google for heritage's sake, as 849 00:42:24,468 --> 00:42:26,338 much as keeping up with trends. 850 00:42:26,938 --> 00:42:31,548 But then I follow a lot of business blogs, a lot of business sites, which 851 00:42:31,548 --> 00:42:35,648 keeps me, keeps my mind ahead of what's actually happening out there. 852 00:42:36,408 --> 00:42:43,368 In the economic world, and my role these days is a lot about steering the company 853 00:42:43,768 --> 00:42:48,358 in terms of new things we bring through, what's happening in the landscape, where 854 00:42:48,358 --> 00:42:53,533 do we want to be, and keeping ahead of that stuff, but I think solutions A to 855 00:42:58,693 --> 00:43:02,083 Matt Edmundson: I've got one more question for you, Phil, because time has just 856 00:43:02,083 --> 00:43:03,473 flown by, a thousand miles an hour. 857 00:43:04,073 --> 00:43:06,083 I'm just slowly working my way through the list. 858 00:43:07,233 --> 00:43:10,823 We've talked again, we've talked about a strategy for eCommerce 859 00:43:10,823 --> 00:43:12,773 startups, you've talked about where some of the hotspots are. 860 00:43:13,463 --> 00:43:17,783 If we're already doing well on Google, we should look at we've talked a 861 00:43:17,783 --> 00:43:19,003 little bit about digital products. 862 00:43:19,013 --> 00:43:24,423 So one person or one organization that I do want to touch on partly because I 863 00:43:24,433 --> 00:43:28,773 serve on some boards, partly because I'm just genuinely interested, is charity. 864 00:43:29,143 --> 00:43:34,913 Now, um, Google have this system for charities, don't they, where 865 00:43:34,923 --> 00:43:40,793 you can get a 10, 000 credit towards your ad spend every month. 866 00:43:41,343 --> 00:43:44,473 That's only, as far as I understand that, that's only on 867 00:43:44,493 --> 00:43:47,263 the, it's only Google search ads. 868 00:43:47,963 --> 00:43:49,243 It's not to do with YouTube. 869 00:43:49,243 --> 00:43:51,553 It's nothing to do with Google Macs and all that sort of stuff. 870 00:43:51,553 --> 00:43:54,923 It's just literally Google search ads you can spend up to 10, 000 on. 871 00:43:55,423 --> 00:43:57,053 Have you had any experience with that? 872 00:43:57,053 --> 00:43:58,383 So if there's a charity listening. 873 00:43:59,018 --> 00:44:02,168 Maybe just explain what that is, because not every charity knows about 874 00:44:02,168 --> 00:44:05,008 it, and then we'll talk a little bit about, for a few minutes, about 875 00:44:05,088 --> 00:44:06,448 how charities can exploit this. 876 00:44:07,593 --> 00:44:07,823 No 877 00:44:07,823 --> 00:44:08,173 Phil Byrne: problem, Matt. 878 00:44:08,293 --> 00:44:13,153 So the scheme is called Google Grants and there's a page which I 879 00:44:13,153 --> 00:44:15,603 can supply you with, Matt, where you can make an application. 880 00:44:16,403 --> 00:44:21,223 And what Google will do is they'll look at your status as a charity and 881 00:44:21,493 --> 00:44:27,283 most of the time they will award a grant and that can be credited to an ad 882 00:44:27,283 --> 00:44:29,983 account for you to run search ads from. 883 00:44:30,993 --> 00:44:35,233 I think what a charity has to do is think about in the same way we do in eCommerce. 884 00:44:35,703 --> 00:44:37,443 What do we want that ad spend to do? 885 00:44:37,893 --> 00:44:38,933 Is it sponsors? 886 00:44:39,223 --> 00:44:39,683 Volunteers? 887 00:44:39,683 --> 00:44:41,763 Is it donations? 888 00:44:42,213 --> 00:44:45,723 And each of those different things that we want to happen, we need to make 889 00:44:45,723 --> 00:44:47,803 sure we have a proper landing page for. 890 00:44:48,763 --> 00:44:52,403 I think where, where that spend can just disappear is if 891 00:44:52,403 --> 00:44:53,393 we just send people to the... 892 00:44:54,098 --> 00:44:58,878 Mindset and not give them an intention, but it's a good thing that Google do. 893 00:44:59,218 --> 00:45:04,478 They've given out lots of those grants we do look at those organizations. 894 00:45:04,478 --> 00:45:08,798 We'll actually help them But no charge if they fit with something that we sit 895 00:45:08,798 --> 00:45:11,498 with too and I think it's a good scheme 896 00:45:11,758 --> 00:45:15,393 Matt Edmundson: Yeah, no, it's really powerful it's One organization I'm 897 00:45:15,393 --> 00:45:19,103 involved with is using it that probably spending about one to two thousand 898 00:45:19,608 --> 00:45:21,828 Dollars of the $10,000 allowance. 899 00:45:22,458 --> 00:45:31,108 Part of that is because of I think effort for want of a better expression. 900 00:45:31,138 --> 00:45:32,993 'cause it's a bit like running any gap ads campaign. 901 00:45:32,993 --> 00:45:34,613 You've gotta know what you're doing a little bit. 902 00:45:34,643 --> 00:45:36,653 'cause there are certain terms and conditions like you have to 903 00:45:36,653 --> 00:45:39,123 have a certain engagement rate or something as best I understand it. 904 00:45:40,583 --> 00:45:41,093 Where's. 905 00:45:41,608 --> 00:45:44,418 If someone's sitting in a charity and going we'd love to get agency 906 00:45:44,418 --> 00:45:47,268 involved, but we've not got the budget for agency, unless they come across 907 00:45:47,268 --> 00:45:50,538 people like yourself who are okay, if they can, we'll do work voluntary. 908 00:45:51,488 --> 00:45:55,768 Where's a good place to learn the basics about that type of thing so 909 00:45:55,768 --> 00:45:58,468 they can maximize the charity spend? 910 00:45:59,158 --> 00:45:59,438 Phil Byrne: Yep. 911 00:45:59,438 --> 00:46:02,668 So Google themselves have a lot of great training courses. 912 00:46:03,268 --> 00:46:06,058 So you can actually get the Google Ads certification. 913 00:46:06,658 --> 00:46:08,588 That's why I think it's worth anyone. 914 00:46:09,038 --> 00:46:12,298 Involved in Google Ads, whether you run them yourself, or you manage 915 00:46:12,298 --> 00:46:15,828 someone else who does, or an agency who does, to do that training. 916 00:46:16,938 --> 00:46:21,148 I think if they did the Google search modules, they would have enough 917 00:46:21,588 --> 00:46:23,198 to start running their own ads. 918 00:46:24,208 --> 00:46:25,788 And then go at it from there. 919 00:46:25,788 --> 00:46:28,688 I think another thing for them to try, if they want someone else to run them, 920 00:46:28,688 --> 00:46:33,958 is to join some of the Facebook groups geared towards Google Ad techniques. 921 00:46:34,518 --> 00:46:39,138 And there's often people on there, Who say, I just want to have a couple 922 00:46:39,138 --> 00:46:44,318 of trial clients, test my techniques out on, and see if I can help. 923 00:46:44,858 --> 00:46:47,538 And that, for a charity, can be 924 00:46:47,788 --> 00:46:48,248 Matt Edmundson: great results. 925 00:46:48,498 --> 00:46:49,438 Yeah, absolutely. 926 00:46:49,718 --> 00:46:50,508 Top tip. 927 00:46:51,248 --> 00:46:52,138 Loving that one. 928 00:46:52,668 --> 00:46:55,138 We're going to get into some of those Facebook groups for some of the charities. 929 00:46:55,558 --> 00:46:56,558 No doubt whatsoever. 930 00:46:56,988 --> 00:46:58,078 That's fascinating. 931 00:46:59,283 --> 00:47:01,403 And just again, just worth pointing out, if you are part of 932 00:47:01,403 --> 00:47:03,173 a charity, there is Google Grants. 933 00:47:03,193 --> 00:47:04,893 It is something worth looking at. 934 00:47:05,443 --> 00:47:11,503 It does extend beyond just the Google Ads spend, like you get free Google accounts. 935 00:47:11,533 --> 00:47:14,283 So I know that the ones I'm involved with, for example, all the emails, the 936 00:47:14,283 --> 00:47:17,683 calendars, all that sort of stuff is not something that they charge you for. 937 00:47:18,273 --> 00:47:19,803 It is a great thing they do. 938 00:47:19,853 --> 00:47:23,803 It is a bit of faff to get the account, but it's worth it in 939 00:47:23,803 --> 00:47:24,783 the long run if you get it. 940 00:47:24,863 --> 00:47:25,633 But I like this idea. 941 00:47:25,893 --> 00:47:29,348 I'm My final question, I know I said that before, Phil, but this 942 00:47:29,348 --> 00:47:30,338 is genuinely my final question. 943 00:47:30,338 --> 00:47:32,538 Phil. 944 00:47:32,538 --> 00:47:41,268 Would you recommend eCommerce entrepreneurs maybe who use Agency to 945 00:47:41,278 --> 00:47:44,818 do the Google AdWords certification just to give them that background knowledge? 946 00:47:45,588 --> 00:47:46,188 100%. 947 00:47:46,218 --> 00:47:49,028 Phil Byrne: I think they should do Google Ads and Google Analytics. 948 00:47:49,728 --> 00:47:50,158 Okay. 949 00:47:51,068 --> 00:47:57,488 Really what's helped us become a commission based PPC partner is the data. 950 00:47:57,668 --> 00:47:57,988 Yeah. 951 00:47:58,338 --> 00:47:59,618 More than the ads themselves. 952 00:48:00,538 --> 00:48:04,698 So I think for every entrepreneur, knowing your data and your ability 953 00:48:04,698 --> 00:48:07,808 to look into it and manipulate it so you see what you want to see. 954 00:48:07,878 --> 00:48:08,198 Yeah. 955 00:48:09,398 --> 00:48:10,768 Matt Edmundson: Yeah, that's fantastic. 956 00:48:11,318 --> 00:48:14,108 Commission based agency. 957 00:48:14,118 --> 00:48:15,968 This is this intrigues me now. 958 00:48:17,373 --> 00:48:20,153 We'll talk about that because I want you to tell people how people reach 959 00:48:20,153 --> 00:48:22,803 you and you can talk about what you do Because I think this is fascinating what 960 00:48:22,823 --> 00:48:27,413 you do traditionally Agencies, which I've worked with either have charged 961 00:48:27,413 --> 00:48:32,133 a flat fee or they charge a percent of ad spend like 20 percent So if you 962 00:48:32,133 --> 00:48:36,023 spend 10 grand on ads, they're going to charge you 2 grand So your total spend 963 00:48:36,023 --> 00:48:42,028 is going to be that 12 plus sorry the 10 plus the 2 which is 12 You work slightly 964 00:48:42,028 --> 00:48:45,258 differently and this is quite unique and I did want to give some time to this. 965 00:48:45,258 --> 00:48:49,478 So just explain what it is you do and why you have gone slightly 966 00:48:49,478 --> 00:48:50,778 bonkers with this whole thing. 967 00:48:51,578 --> 00:48:52,028 It could 968 00:48:52,038 --> 00:48:52,588 Phil Byrne: be bonkers. 969 00:48:54,118 --> 00:48:57,798 We've been commission based for about five years now and it was 970 00:48:57,798 --> 00:48:59,428 the advance in data tracking. 971 00:48:59,883 --> 00:49:01,533 That made it an opportunity. 972 00:49:02,583 --> 00:49:06,233 I think that you've used and I've used the word agency in our chat But 973 00:49:06,233 --> 00:49:10,003 I hate using that word, I've always wanted to be with everything I've ever 974 00:49:10,013 --> 00:49:12,453 done a partner It's how I describe it. 975 00:49:12,543 --> 00:49:16,863 Yeah, so I want us to be on the same side of the fence Whereas when you're 976 00:49:16,863 --> 00:49:22,223 charging a flat fee or you're charging a percentage of spend You're not on the 977 00:49:22,223 --> 00:49:26,513 same side of the fence in my opinion There are still some great agencies who do that 978 00:49:27,013 --> 00:49:28,938 and if they're working for you Brilliant. 979 00:49:29,278 --> 00:49:30,208 I think that's fine. 980 00:49:30,728 --> 00:49:35,678 But I want us to all work and benefit together when things go great and 981 00:49:35,678 --> 00:49:39,768 us all to work together and look at what we're going to change when 982 00:49:39,798 --> 00:49:41,468 things are not performing too well. 983 00:49:42,188 --> 00:49:44,958 So we want to be commission based with every client we work with. 984 00:49:45,888 --> 00:49:49,188 There are times when we have to do something different for a short period, 985 00:49:49,678 --> 00:49:54,718 so when data is not there, to base this off, or when it's a brand new company, 986 00:49:55,248 --> 00:49:59,918 we don't even know yet if this is going to work in the market, then we 987 00:49:59,918 --> 00:50:04,388 do charge, as a normal agency does, a flat fee, for generally around 90 days. 988 00:50:06,278 --> 00:50:11,348 We want to go commission based, and if we're growing, it might turn into a half, 989 00:50:11,388 --> 00:50:16,758 so it's half a fee, plus an element of commission, but every client that we work 990 00:50:16,758 --> 00:50:23,228 well with is commission based, that's how we want to be, and it works well, it's 991 00:50:23,228 --> 00:50:28,018 been brilliant for us in some instances, it's taught us a lot, it means that we are 992 00:50:28,018 --> 00:50:32,733 more sales focused than brand focused, So depending on what you want your company 993 00:50:32,753 --> 00:50:38,243 to be, choose the right partner, but it's what we are, what we've become, and 994 00:50:38,253 --> 00:50:40,423 we're tried and trusted in that area. 995 00:50:41,113 --> 00:50:44,443 We, we've got to work with some amazing companies because we have that 996 00:50:44,453 --> 00:50:49,233 approach, and and it's, we don't tie anyone to long contracts, so people 997 00:50:49,233 --> 00:50:50,923 can try it, see if it works out. 998 00:50:51,008 --> 00:50:54,478 If it doesn't, if it does work out, everyone's 999 00:50:54,478 --> 00:50:54,858 Matt Edmundson: happy. 1000 00:50:54,948 --> 00:50:55,708 Everyone's a winner. 1001 00:50:55,798 --> 00:50:56,578 No, I love that. 1002 00:50:56,938 --> 00:51:00,158 I love that model and I love that idea and it's wonderful. 1003 00:51:00,168 --> 00:51:03,518 So Phil, listen, if people want to reach out to you, if they want to find out more 1004 00:51:03,518 --> 00:51:06,428 about what you're doing or want to get in touch with you about maybe how you can 1005 00:51:06,428 --> 00:51:08,578 help them, what's the best way to do that? 1006 00:51:09,398 --> 00:51:09,968 Phil Byrne: No problem. 1007 00:51:10,008 --> 00:51:10,958 So you can look at our site. 1008 00:51:11,173 --> 00:51:11,943 Positivesmarks. 1009 00:51:11,943 --> 00:51:12,263 com. 1010 00:51:12,863 --> 00:51:15,743 All the contact forms there will come to me at the end. 1011 00:51:15,743 --> 00:51:17,903 We'll go through the great team we have and then come to me. 1012 00:51:18,513 --> 00:51:19,673 Very active on LinkedIn. 1013 00:51:19,683 --> 00:51:22,563 So feel free to reach out LinkedIn, direct message me if you want. 1014 00:51:22,643 --> 00:51:25,293 Mention the podcast and I'll know that you've come from 1015 00:51:25,293 --> 00:51:26,713 this chat I've had with Matt. 1016 00:51:27,383 --> 00:51:29,843 There's two things we do, which are my interest people. 1017 00:51:29,843 --> 00:51:33,343 One is a free audit of current ad status and accounts. 1018 00:51:33,943 --> 00:51:35,283 And the second one is our tracking. 1019 00:51:35,283 --> 00:51:36,623 If you want to try our tracking setup. 1020 00:51:37,488 --> 00:51:41,718 And you run an eCommerce store on Shopify or WooCommerce, then you're welcome to 1021 00:51:41,718 --> 00:51:45,918 try that for 30 days and see if it shows you something that you didn't see before. 1022 00:51:45,918 --> 00:51:47,908 I'd love to hear from people. 1023 00:51:48,078 --> 00:51:49,528 It's always fun to chat like this, Matt. 1024 00:51:49,768 --> 00:51:53,478 So anyone who's in the digital space, you always have a fun chat with. 1025 00:51:55,398 --> 00:51:56,068 Matt Edmundson: Absolutely. 1026 00:51:56,118 --> 00:52:00,188 Phil, listen genuinely, man I, I'm always surprised how quickly time goes, but on 1027 00:52:00,188 --> 00:52:03,658 this occasion, I'm even more surprised and just really appreciate you coming on. 1028 00:52:03,678 --> 00:52:05,198 Thoroughly enjoyed the conversation. 1029 00:52:05,198 --> 00:52:07,388 Thank you for sharing the wisdom and the insights. 1030 00:52:08,258 --> 00:52:11,218 And I think we should probably get you back on again at some point in the future 1031 00:52:11,218 --> 00:52:12,618 just to give us an update on the industry. 1032 00:52:12,618 --> 00:52:14,228 And I can ask you all the questions I didn't get to ask you. 1033 00:52:14,808 --> 00:52:16,998 But but yeah, Phil, listen, appreciate it, man. 1034 00:52:17,048 --> 00:52:17,968 Absolute legend. 1035 00:52:18,838 --> 00:52:19,428 It's been a pleasure. 1036 00:52:19,558 --> 00:52:20,018 Thank you. 1037 00:52:20,708 --> 00:52:22,258 whAt a great conversation. 1038 00:52:22,268 --> 00:52:25,498 Huge thanks again to Phil for joining me today. 1039 00:52:25,738 --> 00:52:26,838 And in fact, I've started doing this. 1040 00:52:26,888 --> 00:52:27,338 Huge round of applause. 1041 00:52:27,798 --> 00:52:28,428 Yes, go for it. 1042 00:52:28,908 --> 00:52:29,018 Ha. 1043 00:52:29,568 --> 00:52:30,778 Also, big shout out to... 1044 00:52:30,923 --> 00:52:34,073 To today's show's sponsor, the eCommerce Cohort. 1045 00:52:34,073 --> 00:52:36,733 Remember to check them out think about come join the membership. 1046 00:52:36,733 --> 00:52:38,403 It's not actually that expensive ecommercecohort. 1047 00:52:38,993 --> 00:52:40,753 com for more information. 1048 00:52:41,043 --> 00:52:44,003 And of course, be sure to follow the eCommerce Podcast, wherever you get 1049 00:52:44,003 --> 00:52:47,153 your podcasts from, because we've got some more great conversations lined up. 1050 00:52:47,493 --> 00:52:49,373 And I don't want you to miss. 1051 00:52:49,668 --> 00:52:50,538 Any of them. 1052 00:52:50,878 --> 00:52:55,328 And in case no one has told you yet today, let me be the first 1053 00:52:55,328 --> 00:52:57,838 person to tell you you are awesome. 1054 00:52:57,878 --> 00:52:58,308 Yes, you are. 1055 00:52:58,348 --> 00:52:59,238 Credit awesome. 1056 00:52:59,278 --> 00:53:01,058 It's just a burden you have to bear. 1057 00:53:01,318 --> 00:53:02,208 Phil's got to bear it. 1058 00:53:02,588 --> 00:53:03,308 I've got to bear it. 1059 00:53:03,878 --> 00:53:04,838 You've got to bear it as well. 1060 00:53:05,258 --> 00:53:08,318 Now, the eCommerce Podcast is produced by Aurion Media. 1061 00:53:08,318 --> 00:53:12,348 You can find our entire archive of episodes on your favorite podcast app. 1062 00:53:12,658 --> 00:53:16,118 The team that makes this show possible is the wonderful Sadaf 1063 00:53:16,118 --> 00:53:17,068 Beynon and Tanya Hutsuliak. 1064 00:53:17,448 --> 00:53:19,608 Our theme song was written by Josh Edmundson. 1065 00:53:19,938 --> 00:53:23,848 And as I mentioned, if you would like to read the transcript or show notes, head 1066 00:53:23,848 --> 00:53:25,488 over to the website eCommercePodcast. 1067 00:53:26,758 --> 00:53:26,988 net. 1068 00:53:28,318 --> 00:53:29,458 That's it from me. 1069 00:53:29,728 --> 00:53:30,868 That's it from Phil. 1070 00:53:31,068 --> 00:53:32,738 Thank you so much for joining us. 1071 00:53:32,768 --> 00:53:34,918 Have a fantastic week wherever you are in the world. 1072 00:53:35,278 --> 00:53:36,068 I'll see you next time. 1073 00:53:36,248 --> 00:53:36,768 Bye for now.