Welcome to the ADHD Women's Wellbeing Podcast.

I'm Kate Moore Youssef and I'm a wellbeing and lifestyle coach, EFT practitioner, mum to four kids and passionate about helping more women to understand and accept their amazing ADHD brains.

After speaking to many women just like me and probably you, I know there is a need for more health and lifestyle support for women newly diagnosed with adhd.

In these conversations, you'll learn from insightful guests, hear new findings and discover powerful perspectives and lifestyle tools to enable you to live your most fulfilled, calm and purposeful life wherever you are on your ADHD journey.

Here's today's episode.

I am really delighted to welcome today someone who is highly specialized and very knowledgeable.

His name is Dr.

Daniel Weisberg and he is a clinical psychologist and the managing director of CAPE Psychology, which is an award winning independent clinical psychology service for children, adolescents and young people.

And Prior to founding CAPE, he also worked for NHS services for over 10 years and has a huge amount of experience working with children and adolescents and young people.

And he has a specialized area of neuropsychology, pediatric neuropsychology, which is a highly specialized area of clinical psychology that aims to understand how children's brains relate to their learning, behavior and development.

So I'm really looking forward to getting into this conversation with you, Dr.

Daniel Weisberg.

And also because there's so many different, there's parents as teachers, there's doctors as therapists that listen to this podcast.

And so I'm really keen on getting the most up to date kind of on the ground information, what you're seeing, what's changing, what's evolving so we can really advocate for, for the children.

So welcome to the podcast.

Thank you.

And thank you for having me.

And thank you for that introduction as well.

It's always interesting to hear all those things that I've been through to get to this point.

I don't see it in that way because my job is to really get a sense of exactly what's going on for children and young people now and getting the best possible support put into place.

So I hope we can have a great conversation about it.

Absolutely.

I would love to be able to get into this kind of.

I want to really help the listeners if they are listening and they are supporting children that we don't have to, you know, if you're not a parent yourself, or perhaps you've got nieces or nephews or grandchildren, or you are a teacher or working with children, I feel that, that unfortunately children are still being very much let down, especially in the education system.

I've got four children myself and I've had to advocate very hard for all four of them.

And that come to me relatively easily because I have this knowledge and I have this experience and I work in this industry.

But if you are having to advocate for a child who desperately needs help and support and who the teachers aren't really aware or up to date with, special education needs, who aren't up to date with how adhd, dyslexia or autism presents in the classroom, but also parents who perhaps just don't understand their children's behavior, like I think it's so important that we start being able to help them and support them from a kind and compassionate place.

I would love to.

I know this is a big, A big question, but I'd love to know what Are you kind of seeing this evolution since maybe the beginning of your career with children and adolescents to now?

Are we getting to a better place of supporting these kids and helping them reach their potential?

That is a brilliant question.

And I wonder if it would be helpful to split it into three different areas in that what we see with children and young people, what we see from a parenting point of view, but also what we see from a system in inverted commas point of view.

Because I think all three of them are developing and emerging in very different ways.

Like for example, the parenting support that I see now is remarkably far further ahead than it used to be.

Parents are much more knowledgeable, much more aware, There is so much more support out there, huge amount of information, almost overloading with the amount of information that they is possibly available out there.

But generally parents do exactly what you've just said, which is really want to advocate for their kids, get the best possible support, make sure that their child has the best possible access to everything around them, be it education, socially, emotionally.

Parents want that and will push and push and push for it.

The system in inverted commas is much more of a minefield.

And I don't think has evolved at that same rate.

The system is behind.

So when I say the system, and that's a massive combination of teachers, the local authority, EHCPs, you know, the whole process side of managing.

Can you just break down what EHCP is for people who may be listening to this in a different country?

Of course.

So an EHCP is an education, health and care plan.

It's a legal document that a child can have that takes them all, goes with them all the way through education, that documents all of what their Needs are and all of the provisions that are appropriate for them.

But an EHCP is only provided for children with significant additional needs that cannot be met within a school's own resources.

And so you have to apply for one of these ehc.

I actually think every child should have one because it documents exactly what every child's individual needs are.

However, that's not the process, it's a document that is provided for children with significant additional needs.

In theory, emotional, psychological, health, academic, every any particular set of difficulties.

But you have to go through a huge application process in order to get it.

And the first hurdle is can school provide or can an education service provide the recommendations that are needed for that child within their own resources?

And this is the first battle that any parent and school will have because the local authority will tend to say, school can deal with this, school can deal with this because it's such a massive piece of work to be able to get that whole plan.

And so you then have to go through a process of proving that you can't manage with the available resources.

Now, I, as a psychologist, do not subscribe to that approach.

That approach essentially says we have to let our children fail before they get.

And suffering is a consequence of that.

Absolutely agree.

Now, how is that right?

It's in any sense it's not right.

But all we are set up for in the UK in particular is that approach that parents say we think they need more.

Schools will do everything possible to try to meet those needs, but maybe limited by resources, maybe they see something different than what parents see at home and potentially will come on to that.

But then these children are almost left without the needs that were out the provisions of what they actually need.

And so they fail, disrupting their education, having an impact on their emotional and psychological well being and having consequences that go far beyond what maybe people are, what the local authority perhaps are imagining.

So that's what I mean by the system.

I wonder if it might also be helpful to separate out in, in that schools and the local authority, because actually from experience, schools are exceptionally good actually at trying to meet children's needs.

We often meet professionally parents who approach us who say, you know, we're a bit worried about what schooler, that they're not doing enough.

We think that school might not understand our child in the way that they should be understanding them.

Sometimes parents go further and say school are rubbish and school aren't anywhere near as good as we would we would have hoped.

In my professional experience, I have never met a school who are rubbish.

Teachers want to teach.

Senkos want to provide the right support for their children, for their pupils.

The pastoral team want to give the best possible care.

Often they are limited by their own resources or perhaps they see something different to what parents are reporting.

And, and so you can start to see this battles now along every single step, trying to.

It's interesting, it's interesting that you say that and it's something that I would, I would hope to believe and I, you know, it's kind of encouraging that you say that.

I sometimes see how schools aren't up to date with neurodivergence and how that might present.

And I see schools that perhaps are still using kind of like out of date information or aren't getting the, you know, training and they aren't recognizing, I'm going to maybe say from a ADHD perspective in girls, how that can present and how it can be quite difficult to spot.

As a parent who has ADHD girls, I have heard the same things from teachers over the years of if they just try harder, they just do a bit more, if they just stop fidgeting, if they just make sure their handwriting is a bit neater and that when you're hearing that in a parent's evening and you know, I have this thing because I've got ADHD myself where my blood just boils and I'm just like, and my husband can feel almost like me about to erupt where I have to sort of stay contained.

But then I go into the professional capacity and say, well, did you can you see on their report that they have been diagnosed with adhd?

And so for them to sit in a class without tapping their foot or fidgeting or doodling is really, really hard.

Or, or can you see that for them to finish the exam on time, processing all the information and getting all that information out is going to be harder.

So I do feel that there is an element that certain teachers do need to have this more better understanding, especially in girls.

And I know that teachers are doing their best and I commend teachers hugely because I know what they're doing is almost impossible.

I know that.

And they go in, they don't go in to teach and be like, you know, they want to support kids, but it does, as a parent, it feels hard.

Everything you said I completely agree with.

And this is where there has to be a slightly different approach to how this whole thing is, is managed because you're right, the teachers want to teach and want to do the best that they possibly want to do.

But when I say limited by resource.

That's all.

Also limited by their availability to learn new ways that the children can present in terms of these difficulties, to become more aware of how children might not be able to manage, how actually saying something that might be an off the cuff comment can actually have really detrimental effects.

But yes, this is in a context of teachers now who don't just teach in the way that perhaps when we went to school, when we went to school, there was a teacher at the front who said.

And we all just sort of sat and listened and if you didn't get it, for whatever reason, you were the.

The dumb one or the not clever one, or maybe I'm using polite language here and you were just the naughty one.

That's absolutely.

And now that's still.

That still exists, that thought process.

But there is a huge amount more now within a classroom in that there are TAs, but a teacher has to think of, well, that pupil needs this particular support, this one has that pass, this one has these air defenders.

That one needs it.

And so a teacher's attention is massively spread across so much more.

And so when professionals come in and say, well, actually we now need to make you more aware of X, Y and Z, that is not met with open arms going, yes, give me more.

That's met with, oh my goodness me, more stuff to do.

And they're drowning as it is.

They're drowning in.

And I know that.

And it's very hard.

It's hard.

I can totally, definitely would never want to bash a teacher.

It's just.

Yeah, I just would like you say it's a system thing, like something quite significant needs to change from the foundations a little bit, I think, because you can't have all this awareness and all this conversation and parents understanding ADHD and neurodivergence and all the different sorts of coexisting traits.

And we have all of this.

But then fundamentally things are still feeling quite archaic from the bottom.

Yeah.

And that's absolutely the case.

And also we could say teachers are overloaded X, Y and Z and support them all day, which I think we should.

But that doesn't really help a child who's struggling, you know, and a parent who says, well, actually, my child's needs still aren't being met.

What can we do about it?

And that's where support does come in handy, because it's really important that each child's needs are specifically met, otherwise they cannot access education in the way that we would hope that they could.

Yeah.

So in terms of sharing that understanding, I Absolutely.

Think there has to be a big drive in developing teachers awareness of how ADHD presents in a classroom, how it can affect children in so many different ways, from, from masking and hiding things, from behaviors that might look like just naughtiness or defiance, all the way through to the children who cannot stay in their seat and are bouncing off the walls.

And how does that, how does a teacher manage that in that kind, compassionate, understanding way?

And how can parents support at home?

How can the child support themselves?

And so this is where all those different factors need to align, which is a lot easier said than done.

It is.

And then because we kind of understand what this trajectory is, you know, back in the day, people would leave school with no qualifications, you know, and they would have undiagnosed dyslexia and ADHD and autism and all these different things, but they would just leave school with no career path, very low self esteem, no self belief, low self confidence, all of these things.

And then they just have this sort of chronic unemployment, you know, and not feeling that they are worthy of, of anything in life because they've sort of been given these, these beliefs that they're stupid and they're dumb and they can't read and they can't do things.

And I would love to see this opportunity start from the very beginning where kids are supported so they can reach their potential.

And we can see things like the prison population come down or we can see things like kids, you know, kids knowing that they can, they can get a job.

And it doesn't, it's not reflective on their academic kind of success.

So I know this is.

You haven't got the answers for this.

But you're right, that's, that is the ideal.

That's absolutely ideal.

Because this is not bad children, which is what the easy explanation would be.

It is absolutely not bad children.

This is children who are trying to navigate a world that is different to them.

And I always use that language of difference because there's nothing wrong here.

It's just a different way of doing it.

It just so happens that the majority of children manage in this way.

The children who see it differently might be this way, but they're in a world that deals with that majority who see it this way.

And so trying to navigate that is exceptionally challenging.

Yeah.

Are you supporting parents to get assessments and are you helping parents understand maybe they've got like a foundational, say ADHD assessment or a dyslexia assessment and then helping people understand what these coexisting traits are because, you know, it's not just this black and white, autism, adhd.

We now know that autistic traits and ADHD traits all sort of intermerge with each other.

We can have the co diagnosis of both, but we can also have very often, and I think this is something that's really important to discuss, that there's a really high chance if you've got adhd, you're going to have either dyslexia, dyscalculia, dyspraxia, anything like that.

And how.

And I'm interested to hear your opinion on this, that will assessments and diagnoses start becoming a bit more of a umbrella or an overarching kind of description, or do you still believe that?

It's very important we have these very separate labels because we know that it's not just one or the other and it's not black and white.

I think because of the challenges that undiagnosed difficulties can present, it is absolutely right to make sure that a child's needs are fully understood.

And one of the best ways of doing that is an assessment.

Now at this point we are really careful and I think this is the right way to go about things, is we should never just assess children straight away.

Assessments are heavy going, detailed, in depth, thorough tests, if you will, of a child's skills and abilities across a wide range of settings.

So at home, at school, socially and.

And it is a very thorough understanding of everything that's going on.

It is not an easy thing to be doing.

So that's the first part is there's a high demand on the child and the family.

The second part is the question of would a diagnosis actually lead to anything helpful.

So as a psychologist, my background is in more of a, a formulation rather than a diagnosis.

So a formulation is like a working understanding of what's going on.

You know, why is this behavior there?

What does that tell us about what that child needs?

What's happening at home that's leading to this happening?

You know, and we're asking all these different questions that help us to, to understand the child that we see in front of us.

We find psychologists find that much more meaningful than just saying, well, you've got X diagnosis or Y condition because it's, it's meaningful.

Now that is very nice and a very lovely approach to take.

But if we just went to school and said, well, this child has got these traits because of this thing going on at home and that event's happened in their life, schools will sit and nod and go, great, but remember that that last section which is the system.

The system works off diagnosis and labels and a condition, which is the language that we absolutely don't like using because it tells you there's something wrong with you.

But that's not what we believe.

It's just a difference.

But the process says there has to be that label in order to access that support.

And if an assessment which potentially leads to a diagnosis could then give you that support, then I would say go ahead with an assessment.

But if we're just going to end up with a piece of paper that says you've got ADHD or you've got autism and it makes no difference into a child's life and that's, that's probably a reason not to do an assessment.

There is nothing wrong with the diagnosis.

In fact, a diagnosis can bring a huge amount of comfort and meaning.

We see it when adults perhaps get diagnosed later in life who've struggled all the way through, and then suddenly there is this meaning, this revelation that says, ah, that is why to offer that for children can be incredibly powerful.

But again, it's.

There's so many different variables that we want to consider here, which include will that be seen as a positive, that this is what it, this is what it means.

It doesn't stop you from living your life.

We just need to make adjustments.

Or will a child potentially interpret that as.

Well, I've got this thing now that's wrong with me.

This is my identity, this is who I am.

And actually that puts them on a very different perspective to that one, of, of a positive one.

So you just have to tread very carefully.

But it absolutely can be beneficial and certainly very meaningful and can bring the right amount of support.

What would you say, age wise?

You know, again, you've got parents or caregivers listening to this and they're thinking, I've suspected maybe from the age of two or three that there's something different going on with my child.

You know, behavioral kind of traits or, you know, sensory traits, all different things.

What would you say, sort of the optimum age?

Or is that, is it different for each child?

It is different, but I, I would never offer an ADHD assessment before the age of six and ideally not before the age of eight.

And the reason for that is so often ADHD like behaviors are actually well within the realms of normal.

I know we should never use the word normal, but, but it is, it's normal because it's.

Everybody goes through these behaviors and I wonder if it's.

Don't know if it's a British thing or if it's a human trait point of view.

But we're very quick to see what's wrong and you can see it in our language.

Like take terrible twos for example.

Terrible twos is immediately says, well that that's a really difficult age because children are a nightmare.

But actually all terrible twos is, is a child who has developed skills at very different rates.

So they've got a very spiky profile.

So they might be able to for example eat food quite easily but find it difficult to use a knife and fork.

So so they're then sort of battling that specific process.

And so what does a two year old do when they struggle with something?

Let it all out through their behavior or shout or throw or something like that.

That is completely normal.

We just call that terrible twos.

It's more just, I don't know, neurodevelopmental spikiness.

But I don't think that rolls off the tongue, does it?

But so yes, we're very quick to say well that's a problematic behavior.

Whereas actually I'm not convinced it is.

It's just them developing at different rates.

And if you look at the school environment and of course schools are very different, but children go from being cared for at home when they're very young into perhaps a nursery setting.

Nursery is all about play.

A little bit of structured time, but play, play interactions, fun games, brightness, loudness, all the sort of exciting things.

And generally the environment is hugely adaptable.

So a child who might even struggle in those busy environments still has opportunities to go to play on their own or to have much more quiet time or a bit of a sensory space.

So you wouldn't necessarily know that it's a problem because the environment is perfect for them.

Then you progress at the age of four or five into more of a formal setting.

And that early years preschool and reception is still play based but it's, it suddenly becomes a bit more formal and different schools go at different rates here and some children are absolutely not ready for that.

They still need that nursery like environment or that outdoor environment much more than what they currently have.

What's a five year old gonna do?

Not sit down and listen to their teacher trying to teach early phonics?

They're gonna want to be up playing with the dinosaurs or in that sand train.

Of course they are.

Now that in for a school who has a pretty traditional view of sit listen, this is how you get prepared for primary school type thing that becomes a problematic behavior.

But that is well within the realms of normal and so we're suddenly getting this.

This fight on our hands.

Now there might be a problem that there might be a challenge that a child's got.

They cannot manage it, and that might lead to something later on in life.

It might do.

But for a lot of children, they're just not ready for that environment.

And there are some countries that recognize this and don't offer that formal school setting until 7, 8.

I think the Scandinavian countries take that approach.

Now, there is a scientific reason for that, and we are not nowhere near set up.

Can you imagine if we said, now, right, your child's at home with you now until seven, what I would be like.

But.

But it is.

But that's really what's necessary because that's helping children to learn the most fundamental element of life, which is play, play, play, play, play.

That is what it's all about.

And that's not what's offered in those early years, which then presents as ADHD like behavior.

So we need to sort of wait till children have grown out of that bit, which typically is around 8 years old.

Yeah, I think that's so, so important that you say this.

I mean, I have always been of this mindset that if I can get my kids outside, I will.

And this is way before I had any understanding about ADHD and my own needs.

But I always had this thing.

If someone said to me, let's go to the play, indoor play, soft play thing, something in my body would just recoil because the thought of, like, loads of screaming kids, bright lights, just being indoors, no windows, I would just be like, I can't do that.

So I would miss out on social situations where all the other mums would sit and drink coffee and chat and just, just wouldn't even hear the noises of all these other kids screaming.

But anytime I did that with my kids, they would also have a reaction.

There would be a meltdown, there'd be screaming, they would kick off when I had to leave.

It was always so stressful.

So I just made this decision that actually I'm happier, my kids are happier.

When we go to the park, we're playing in the garden, we go for a walk, we go to the woods, anything like that.

And that was just all based intuitively on what I felt I needed to be a good parent.

But also, you know, my kids and their behavior and the outcome of us, they'd always be calmer, more tired, hungrier and easier.

When I got home, they just want to sit and watch TV and chill.

And that was perfect.

And I just wonder if we could adopt more of this mindset of, like, how can we get kids outside more?

And my youngest daughter goes to a school.

They've got a forest school.

It's only every other week, but she loves it.

And they learn outside.

And whatever the weather is, you have to pack all the wellies and the kaguls, and no matter what, they go outside.

And she always comes back from school that day in a much better mood, like I've noticed.

So I just think these little things that don't cost a huge amount of money and they don't really involve, like, too many logistics, like, we can just kind of go.

Actually, I think my kids are better when they're outside and they're kicking a ball around, they're climbing, they're, you know, in a.

In a playground, they're running through the woods, we're picking up bits and pieces.

Little things like that can really impact their behavior.

Absolutely.

That is one of the best possible things that you can do.

Get outside and get playing, no matter the weather.

Now, this is really easy to sit here and say, but, you know, in reality, when it's pouring down with rain, you don't want kids to go outside.

When it's freezing cold, you don't want them to go outside.

But actually, every single time they're outside, it's not only just brilliant for their energy levels and their activity levels, it's also a massive learning experience being out there.

So whatever happens outside, children are learning from it.

And you see this when children go to a park, they would happily grab sticks or jump into that puddle, or jump, go into that forest bit that says do not enter, you know, whatever it might be, because children are naturally curious and they're developing their understanding of that world around them and can only do that by being immersed into those environments.

This is why forest schools are so exceptionally popular, because not only do kids love it, they massively benefit from it.

And they're so much more regulated afterwards because they've been doing all the things that are naturally perfect for them.

I love that.

Regulated is the word, isn't it?

And just being outside is one of the best ways to work towards that.

I remember.

So in my own.

My own private life, I remember the first time I experienced this, of how children learn from things in ways that we might not necessarily see as adults is when my first was.

I've got three kids.

The oldest, he's now nine, but when he was like two, I thought, you know, we need to buy some toys here to.

To help him, you know, play and do whatever else.

And obviously being a psychologist, I'm looking at all the toys with that teaches this thing and that learns about this and this speaks.

We bought a load of things and I thought, this is amazing face on, because this is an evidence based child.

What did he want to play with?

Empty toilet roll holders and bottles of washing up liquid.

That's it, that's it.

I'm sat there like, oh, okay.

But actually the way children see the world is through these own.

Their own eyes that I don't think we would ever be able to see because we just see it from, from such a distorted parenting, disillusioned point of view.

But children see it in a way that is amazing.

So recently it snowed really badly and.

Or really heavily is probably a better way to put it.

I was like, oh my gosh, it's so warm and cozy inside.

What do the kids want to do outdoors?

And they were out for hours.

Loved it.

And they came back in exhausted and happy.

So yes, outside playing is a massive one.

But it leads on to the second part, which is playing, actually playing.

And I said this earlier, but playing is one of the best things that children can do.

It's teaching them incredible skills of how to interact and develop their imagination and learn the value of social relationships and learn how things work.

But we as adults never play in the way that is ideal for children.

So if they play on their own, that's one thing.

But when they want us to play with them, we are not very good at this at all.

We tend to direct play.

So if children come along and they say, oh, look at this, and they ask a load of questions, you know, what's this that you're making?

What does this do?

How does this work?

What should we do with this?

And you're sort of throwing your.

Making it a very challenging set of circumstances for that child.

Because there might not be a name for it, a child might not have that ability to say it.

What I would recommend is taking that step back and just sort of describing what's happening when you're playing.

And so you're saying things like, wow, look at that yellow car that flies on top of that super giraffe.

Because you're using words, they're hearing language, it helps them develop language.

But you're also not directing the play in any sense.

They are directing it, you're just tagging along to it.

You see this when children ask for help in things, if you suddenly become too directive in things, things they'll give up more quickly if a Child's trying a jigsaw, for example, and they're trying it with, you know, matching the colors or whatever strategy they're using.

And you come in and say, no, no, no, you need to put the edges around first.

Do the edge, do the corner.

They'll just sit there and go, you know, and maybe walk off, because that's not what they want to do.

They just sort of want you there to be with them, which is not.

That's so important to hear that.

I think that's.

That's.

And it's difficult.

Is really difficult because that's not what comes naturally to so many parents.

Yeah, we kind of want to take control, don't we?

What you just said then is actually really profound.

It's just to be there, just to be.

And we don't have to be doing loads of things and stimulating them and teaching them and doing all this just to sort of be there in the background while they're pottering around.

And that can help them feel safe and secure.

And I know that so many parents, you know, we're busy, we're working, we've got pressure.

Most women I know now are working part time, at least often full time.

The kids are in daycare, childcare.

It's such a different setup.

And then we have all these pressures again of, well, is my child dyslexic?

Do I need to take them for an assessment?

Is this behavior, quote unquote normal?

Is that a sensory need?

What do I need to do?

Like, there's just so much.

There's so much as parents and yes, you hear the media, especially the Daily Mail, and all these different people that going, oh, everyone needs a label nowadays and everyone's getting extra time and teachers are stretched and, you know, every child has got something.

But actually, it's kind of like, where's that balance as a parent, as a caregiver?

Like, where do we find that balance of heading straight for these diagnoses?

Where do we sit, watch and wait?

Where do we support and where do we worry?

I guess.

Yeah.

And what you've just described really eloquently is what every parent is holding all the time.

So when a professional comes along and goes, oh, just.

Just be with your children, that's really easy for us to say, but the reality is that's.

That's exceptionally challenging to actually put into practice.

Phones buzz, things happen, things distract you.

You've got a million and one things to.

To be dealing with.

So sitting, trying to work out how a child's imaginary flying horse fits into your life is really difficult in that moment.

So, you know, so if it's not professionally, it is not a problem to say, no, I can't play at the moment because I've got to do X, Y and Z.

That is not a problem.

Problem.

Parents often feel guilty about that and really shouldn't because life happens.

Life is busy.

Other things sometimes need to take priority, and that's okay.

But as long as there is some time that you can have with your child.

Undisrupt, not disrupted.

Is that the right word?

Yeah, yeah.

Uninterrupted, there's the right word.

So if you're playing, don't have your phone to the side of you and quickly glancing, just play.

And actually, there was some evidence recently that said children need 10 minutes a day of play with parents.

10 minutes, that's it.

And if you can, if you can manage that, that's.

That's a really good starting point to work towards.

But yeah, there is so much that parents have to be holding.

So, for example, you know, I'm, as a psychologist, I know that shouting at children is absolutely not a helpful way of parenting.

Do I shout at my children?

Absolutely.

I shout at my children.

Does it help?

Never, ever, ever, ever.

And find myself in these same situations over and over again?

And I know that I shouldn't.

I know that I need to take that step back and try and understand what led to that set of circumstances.

But I'm holding a million and one things, and trying to do that is really difficult.

But the.

That's where we can try and make a difference.

That's what we can try and do.

Can we take that deep breath in, take a step back and say, right, what does my child need at this moment?

What are they trying to communicate to me?

What are they going through that has led to this set of circumstances?

And it just allows you to have that wider overview of that behavior or of that comment or of that action that they have done that isn't immediately seen as they're just being difficult again, here they go again, that sort of stuff.

Because that's what we were saying.

Teachers can sometimes fall into the trap of, well, we need to also do that as parents.

How do we take that step back and just see it from a wider perspective?

Every single thing that children do, everything is a communication.

They are trying to tell you something, and it's sometimes a really inefficient, ineffective way of telling you, but they're trying to tell you something.

So we need to try and work out what it is.

That they are trying to tell us that's a brilliant place.

Yeah, that's really powerful because yeah, when they're having that post school meltdown, the tantrum, the shouting, the refusing the, all of that.

And as a tired, busy parent who's had a whole day, you know, doing other things, it is hard, it's hard to find the patience, I guess, and the energy to then deal with that.

But I think, you know, I talk a huge amount about looking after ourselves and our regulation and finding places of calm and self care so we can then hopefully hold that space for our kids.

Because as parents that, you know, that's what we need to be doing.

It's very difficult if we've got, you know, neurodivergent families and there's all sorts of levels of reactivity and energy and all things like that, but I think just little snippets of awareness and these little bits of guidance and advice to also say it's okay to say not right now.

And it's also okay, you know, we're all human and we do shout and even a clean clinical psychologist who understands children knows that it's not right to shout.

But still we're human and that's what happens.

So we probably need to kind of give ourselves a bit of grace and a bit of confidence, compassion as well and just kind of, you know, I'm a firm believer that if we show our kids love and connection every single day and like you say, just to put our phone away for 10 minutes and if they want to talk to us or they want to engage with us, to move that phone and then to sort of see us move that phone is actually a really big significant behavior.

To say, right, I'm here, I'm listening to you, you've got my full attention.

Because I do it all the time.

I'm on my phone, they're asking me and I hate, I can hear them go, mummy, mummy, mummy.

And I'm on my phone and I'm not on my phone just doing something insignificant.

I probably am responding to an important email but they don't know what I'm doing on my phone.

They might think I'm just scrolling on Tick Tock or Instagram or whatever.

So yeah, it's, I think this conversation is going to be very helpful because it's going to maybe take a little bit of pressure off parents.

What I'd love to know is what support you provide, what services do you provide and how does it work from a country wide perspective.

And maybe if someone's Listening from a different country, what can you help with.

Particularly from an assessment point of view or just in general?

Yeah, what services?

I guess if someone's saying, right, this actually sounds like I want some private help, I don't want to wait any longer in the nhs.

What can you guys do to help?

So Cape Psychology is a psychological health care service for children and we cover a wide range of concerns that parents might have and difficulties that children might experience.

We are a clinical psychology led service.

So everyone who works with us, we have 90 psychologists across the UK.

They are mostly clinical psychologists.

Some, some aren't.

I'll explain why in a second.

But we are here to offer that clinical psychology support, support and advice for families for children and, and even schools and teachers to offer that, that understanding of what's going on for a child.

The position that we come from is one of saying we can intervene at the earliest possible point here.

So our real aim is to support families who might be beginning to think that there is a problem.

So we're a bit worried about our child, we're a bit concerned that they're struggling in certain areas.

Can we get some help?

And getting the support then can stop that problem from developing.

Huge amount of clinical evidence says if you prevent the problem from getting worse is massively more beneficial in terms of all different metrics, outcomes and satisfaction and happiness and well being, rather than fixing it when it gets more significant.

And that's unfortunately what mental health services have found themselves in, is a situation where they can only support the children at that complete other end of the spectrum, which is children who are really struggling to the point where there are lots of concerns about their own safety and their own well being.

I won't stop that from happening.

So therapeutically, we can absolutely offer that face to face.

We've got clinics across the uk, but also online as well.

But from an assessment point of view, I'm particularly proud of our assessments because I know that we do them really, really well.

So assessments for autism and ADHD in particular are really comprehensive, really detailed and very thorough.

Now there are, there's huge amount of guidance on how to do an ADHD or an autism assessment.

Some nice guidelines, which is the National Institute for Clinical Excellence, they say this as the standards that are expected for a particular assessment and if an assessment does not meet those standards, it is considered invalid.

And so I would urge any parent looking for a private assessment to make sure that the assessments are consistent with nice guidelines and to get the evidence that that's the case, because so for Example, in an autism assessment, there has to be two professionals involved.

There are circumstances where it can be one, but generally the two professionals involved who are also part of a wider multidisciplinary team, there have to be multiple professionals from multiple backgrounds who assess a child over multiple settings, at home, at school, out and about.

Now, if that's not part of an assessment.

So, for example, a family are just coming, they have a quick conversation, fill out this questionnaire and then there's a possible diagnosis that is nowhere near good enough.

And that's my concern with private assessments out there, that there are providers who you could find, for a very cheap price, a quick and dirty.

It's not in the nicest language, but it's a quick and dirty assessment.

Fill out this questionnaire, tick these boxes, express what's going on here and if that fits with adhd, we'll give a diagnosis.

These are psychiatric diagnoses that are lifelong diagnosis.

They should never, ever be given, especially to children, unless we are 100% confident that that's what's going on for them.

And one of the features of that confidence is I believe you have to meet a professional team face to face.

Online assessments are not valid enough, in my opinion, to give these diagnoses.

A professional has to see how your child manages in certain environments.

And when I said earlier about these tests being quite difficult, it puts children through challenging circumstances.

You know, in an assessment of adhd, we assess their sustained attention.

How long can a child sit repeating a very boring task?

Because we want to know how do they manage that?

That's not a pleasant experience at all.

But we have to see that face to face so that we can even see the non verbal comments, the subtleties.

That's what we're trained to do, is how are they responding?

What about masking?

I don't think you could assess how a child masks through a zoom call.

That's not good enough.

So, yes, they have to meet face to face.

So nice guidelines, multidisciplinary team, face to face.

And these are all the features of what we can offer.

And the final part is we absolutely must get corroboration from school.

Schools have to be part of an assessment.

So if a family approach us and ask for an assessment without school's involvement, we would be, it'd be very, very unlikely for us to progress with it because we feel we need that understanding.

As a psychologist, I want to understand why they don't want school involved and we could potentially help from that side.

But we need a teacher spends hours With a child each day, we need their perspective, even if it might be different from a parent's perspective.

Absolutely need to see that.

So it takes a lot of conversations, a lot of collaboration, a lot of liaison with different people, but that helps us come to an overall diagnosis, which would then be documented in a report for a family to use as their evidence for what they need.

And what about sort of the coexisting traits alongside that?

So when you're assessing, are you looking for the, you know, the other things that we know that ride alongside, you know, adhd, such as whether it's ocd, whether it is anxiety, whether it is dyslexia?

Are you kind of.

Is that part of the package or is that separate?

Every assessment that we do will absolutely be looking out for those different things going on.

We call them comorbidities.

And you're absolutely right in that children with ADHD are massively more likely to also have something else, such as autism or dyslexia.

The pathways in children's brains for these different differences are very similar.

So there is a much higher likelihood of these comorbidities from occurring.

So as part of our assessment, we'll be looking out for it.

But if we need to make a formal diagnosis, there would then need to be an additional assessment for that particular thing, which is why we would only ever recommend assessments that we've got the evidence for if it's causing those families particular challenges.

So, for example, if a child's coming with attentional difficulties and we decide that an ADHD assessment is the right thing, we are absolutely on the lookout for signs of autism, signs of learning challenges, and if those are there, we would clearly state that to the family and recommend they go ahead with assessments for those things if it was necessary.

I just want to thank you so much for this because, you know, to hear all of this from a clinical psychologist who works day in and day out with lots of different difficulties and differences in childhood and adolescence, I think it's very validating for parents to hear this.

And I guess, how can people get in touch with you?

What's your website?

Because I'm sure there's going to be people who will be like, yes, I want to work with you and maybe get an assessment for their child.

Yes.

So all our.

All the information about all the work that we do is on our website.

It's www.cape spelled C-A Y P hyphen psychology.com cape-.com we also have.

We're trying to be a modern service, so we've invested in quite a lot of AI recently.

Now, a robot will never take over psychologists and should never take over psychologists.

But when families get in touch with us, they can also WhatsApp us.

But we've got this, this AI system that helps to respond to queries much quicker than a human would do.

So if someone asks about prices or availability or locations or how things work, rather than picking up the phone and talking to us, which of course, of course you are welcome to do if you want an immediate response.

WhatsApp, our number is 074-665-0269-074465-02690.

Send us a WhatsApp and Charlie are AI robots person.

But yeah, we're always here to follow it up.

So you're not going to be sent to a robot to do a formal assessment.

That's nice.

Guidelines.

Yeah, that's absolutely fine.

So I'll put all this in the show notes, so if you are driving or walking the dog right now, you can go back and refer to the show notes.

Dr.

Daniel Weisberg, thank you so much for your time, really appreciate it and hope to speak to you again very soon.

Thank you so much.

If today's episode has been helpful for you and you're looking for even further support, my brand new book, the ADHD Women's Wellbeing Toolkit, is now available to order from anywhere you get your books from.

I really hope this book is going to be the ultimate resource for anyone who loves this podcast and wants a deeper dive into all these kinds of conversations.

If you head to my website, ADHD womenswellbeing.co.uk, you'll find all the information on the book there, which is going to be out on the 17th of July.

Thank you so much.