00:00:08 Shreya: Hello and welcome to Healing Horizon, a space where we explore healing, growth and the deeper patterns that shape how we live and live. I'm your host, Shreya, and today I'm joined by Shawn Mayer, a coach, strategist and consultant who works with organizations focused on human development and engaged leadership. Shawn is also the creator of teamwork and team flow architecture systems, designed to build cultures of trust, belonging, and innovation. But alongside his leadership work, Shawn carries a deeply personal story a journey from years of chronic pain and migraines to a life that now includes martial arts, mindfulness, and spiritual practice. And today, we are exploring that journey and the deeper question it raises about empathy, sensitivity, and how we care for ourselves while caring for others. Welcome, Shawn. I'm honored to have you on my show.

00:01:04 Shaun Mader: Thanks, Shreya. Thank you for having me.

00:01:07 Shreya: And Shawn, before we dive into the empaths dilemma, I'm really curious about the turning point in your own story. So you spent years dealing with chronic pain and migraines and today you are practicing martial arts and living very differently. So what shifted internally that allowed that transformation to begin?

00:01:29 Shaun Mader: Well, it did not happen all at once. That's probably the first thing. Um, and I know if anybody has chronic pain out there, I think they can probably, um, identify with trying a lot of different modalities, hoping to get some relief. And certain things will give you relief and then the symptoms come back in a different way. So for a number of years, I was actually traveling between New York City and India, where I would take periods of time to live in ashrams and do a lot of deep meditations, yoga, and I would get some relief. Um, but invariably I would come back to the fast paced life that I was leading, uh, in the film and video production world where all of those, uh, all of that peace and ease from the pain would return. So, um, there's progress. But then what I really discovered was through some transformational work that I became engaged in, uh, first as a participant and then as a leader of programs was the internal battle that was happening subconsciously. And that'll point to what we speak about with the empaths dilemma. But I started over time, I came to realize that many people with chronic pain are trying to battle out things in their nervous system, and it causes the nervous system to become burned out. So anything from traumatic experiences to emotional disruption, and it can manifest itself physically. And when it does, we tend to confuse the physical symptoms for the underlying emotional causes.

00:03:21 Shreya: Yes, that's beautifully explained. And also there is this common belief that being empathic simply means being kind or emotionally aware. But when people describe themselves as empaths, they're often talking about something deeper, actually feeling and absorbing the emotional energy around them. So from your perspective, what do people tend to misunderstand about empathy or being an empath?

00:03:48 Shaun Mader: Uh, well, right, to your point, there's a lot of misunderstanding around it. And depending on the way you're approaching the conversation, I would say that some people talk about empathy in terms of we need to have more empathy for people, or you can see such cruelty happening in the world. Um, it is a virtue to have empathy for how other people feel pain, uh, being tolerant of things that you yourself would never tolerate. You know, these are the injustices we talk about in the world. So what I find sometimes is that people wear the badge of having empathy or calling themselves an empath. Like a badge of honor, like this is a morally superior place to be. Um, and in some cases that's valid. But there's another side of it that, uh, a lot of us who have come through to the other side of things like chronic pain have realized is that oftentimes somebody who is highly empathic has a different experience of life than the people around them. They're picking up on a lot more stimulus. They're more aware of things going on in an environment. And in many cases, what you'll find is that the reason that that person has that sensibility or that sensitivity is because somewhere in their early life, whether it was an emotionally unstable household, uh, a certain kind of trauma that happened, that little person, that that young child had to be on very high alert. And so, uh, I'm not sure if this is a universal expression, but walking on eggshells, having to be very hyper aware of everything else going on in the room in, in order to stay safe. So that's, that's that, that sets up the first conflict with being an empath. On one hand, it seems like the morally superior and ethical and justice oriented thing to be, but that the source of it is oftentimes comes from something deeply painful. Early on in life that developed your ability to be hyper aware. And I think that's what sets up the dilemma for people later on in life. Um, I'm not sure how far we want to go into this, but that that, that's kind of the setup to the, the dilemma itself.

00:06:22 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah.

00:06:23 Shreya: Well, it's like when someone realizes that they are carrying other people's emotions in their own body or mind, what usually begins to change in how they understand themselves.

00:06:37 Shaun Mader: Yeah, I, I think this is where people really struggle because the virtue of being able to appreciate somebody else's pain and the desire, in fact, let me back up one step. Maybe it's the identification with what it's like to be in pain can make an empath very aware of what somebody else is feeling and feel bad for that. So you can almost compound, you know, their suffering in a way. And that's where, Uh, I think people get really conflicted because if we're saying that this is a dilemma, if we're saying that this is, uh, uh, a dysfunction of being an empath, the solution is not the opposite. The solution is not to simply say, I don't care or that's their problem, but how do we work meaningfully with that? So for instance, right now in the world where there's so much to, to feel is wrong or, or disruptive or so much suffering to confront, it can be a very sobering thought to ask oneself, does me suffering extra and trying to hold everybody else's suffering actually make any difference? And I'm not saying that that's an answer, but we bump up against the reality that me being miserable at home, feeling angry and hurt about other people, feeling hurt, is still about my emotions and does not resolve, does not resolve anything. And it does nothing to, uh, cause new action to lower the suffering of people. So I feel like that that becomes a critical point. And I think that's being widely experienced by a lot of people today.

00:08:44 Speaker 3: Yes. I think that's.

00:08:45 Shreya: Such an important distinction because it shows how like that, that empathy is not just emotional sensitivity. It's an energetic relationship with the world among, uh, like around us. And, and when that awareness is not there, it can easily become overwhelming rather than empowering.

00:09:05 Shaun Mader: Yeah. And by the way, a fair amount of guilt. If we were to say, well, maybe I shouldn't be carrying somebody else's pain. Uh, I think for a lot of people that inside their own mind that that equates to not caring, which is not what that person feels at all.

00:09:25 Speaker 3: Yes.

00:09:27 Shreya: And also, like many people who identify as highly empathetic, also described feeling exhausted or overstimulated or emotionally drained by environments or relationships. So how do you think that happens? What's actually going on beneath the surface?

00:09:46 Shaun Mader: Yeah. So so first, I'm not a doctor. Uh, I'm just somebody who really, uh, literally went around the world trying to find relief for my own challenges. Um, so I tried a lot of modalities and I do, I'm going to give, uh, an understanding my understanding of things. But again, this is not medical advice. Um, to the best of my understanding, the pain and the exhaustion is a result of the nervous system trying to handle and process and cope with all of this, right? So if you actually look at how the nervous system works, and I would encourage people to learn about, uh, polyvagal theory or the vagus nerve, the central nerve that controls the whole way that your nervous system is operating. Um, you'll start to get in. When you get into that topic, you will start to see that the system actually is burning out because it's like an engine that's running too hard and too fast for too long. And it's oftentimes using the intellect and, uh, the kind of rumination and all of those things that come along with it is trying to process things that no mind or body could possibly process. So it's kind of like using your hand to smash rocks and never stopping to realize that no matter how many times you use your your hand to smash a rock, it's not going to work.

00:11:27 Speaker 3: Yeah.

00:11:29 Shaun Mader: So, so that kind of sets up like why that is that why it shows up the way it shows up, why you're having, why those symptoms are appearing. And if you don't understand the mechanism, there's no chance of, of breaking that pattern in my experience.

00:11:45 Shreya: I agree, and I think it's really powerful to hear how the body often carries what the mind hasn't yet processed.

00:11:53 Speaker 3: And yes.

00:11:55 Shreya: And something interesting about your path is that you now practice martial arts. Like, uh, I don't know if I I'm pronouncing it correct. Jujutsu.

00:12:07 Shaun Mader: Yeah. So, so I, I both practice and I teach jiu jitsu now, which is something I never, ever thought I would be doing.

00:12:14 Speaker 3: Yeah.

00:12:14 Shreya: And I think which many people associate with strength and discipline and resilience. So like, how did physical practices like martial arts and yoga begin to change your relationship with your own sensitivity?

00:12:30 Shaun Mader: Well, there's actually another piece in there. So yoga I've done for over twenty years and, um, it was my first access to connecting to my body. Um. While we might oftentimes associate empathy and being an empath with emotions, uh, I find in a lot of people, it's actually very much in the head and disconnected from the psychosomatic experience of the body. So in the beginning, yoga was giving me relief. It wasn't the full solution, but it was those moments, almost like if pressure was building up, this would release that kind of pressure. The martial arts, anything that was that physical and competitive was completely out of reach at the time. Um, I also happen to be really tall and I grew twelve inches in one year when I was a teenager. So I had every and I've injured everything in my body. Uh, I almost broke my neck when I was younger. Um, so I had every. You know, on a list of things I had on the list of items I had every reason to have chronic pain. And what I had to realize, and this happened through some of the transformational work I was doing is that my internal conversation about my body, my body is broken. My body is my enemy. And that was just something in the background that was true for me. Um, the problems I had. Had been happening for so long that I never even thought it could change anymore. So when I realized that my entire relationship to my body was that there's something wrong with me and my body is broken, I could realize how my, my language about myself was reinforcing this pattern. So at a certain point, I realized, well, what if it was possible that my body could heal? What if my body was trying to tell me something? What if I listened to what was going on instead of resisting it? And it didn't happen overnight, but over time, and I was very involved in a lot of personal development work and personal transformation work. I noticed over time that I was not having the symptoms that I was very used to having. And over time, I was getting more curious. And some of the things in my life with my photography led me to do some, um. I did some trades for, for, uh, around with some other gyms and, uh, somebody who was a mixed martial artist. And suddenly I started feeling my body again and started expanding my physical capacity in some of these workout classes. And, um, it's really interesting now to think back then where I was so scared of other men and like their masculinity and their physicality and now, you know, here's somebody on my end who avoided all of that for so long. And I went and lived like a monk for periods of time and just trying to, you know, uh, live inside of the limitations of my nervous system to suddenly having developed all of that. But now being on this very physical side where, you know, multiple times a week, we're going really hard and trying to, you know, playfully beat each other up and having that that capacity. So what I realized was, you know, the empath can often live inside of a similar conversation that my nervous system is too weak. Uh, I'm too sensitive. And we start to live our lives inside this idea that we have a limited capacity, when in fact, if you change the conversation to realizing you are to grow your capacity, you can suddenly find yourself accomplishing far more with far less effort. Um, but I want to make one special mention about that. Uh, many empathic people would fall into some category, uh, of people pleasing. Needing to be nice. And what that really gets at is something far more profound in a root cause. And for anybody listening that you just want to look for yourself. The need to get approval and validation from others. Because in my experience, many highly empathic people also struggle with self-worth issues and the need to be seen as good. And it causes them to completely orient their self-worth from things outside. So the more you get into your body and the more you begin to challenge the background conversations, the blind spot conversations, you start to realize that the only access to being able to be a healed empath and to be able to maintain all of that, uh, emotional bandwidth, but not be a victim to it is to become very present inside your body. So for me, the access is coming from two sides. It's the conversations that we have up here and the physical side. And if you combine both of those, you can build your capacity and not lose any of the empathy, but actually have it work for you and actually broaden and expand your capacity.

00:18:20 Shreya: That's really beautiful. I think that's such a beautiful balance because strength and sensitivity existing in the same space, and I think sometimes grounding ourselves physically becomes the doorway to emotional clarity. And this is truly a very amazing conversation with you. Thank you for sharing so much of your story, your experiences, your insights. And if there is one insight I'm taking from this conversation is that sensitivity is not weakness. It's it's awareness that simply needs grounding and understanding. And if after this, my listeners want to connect with you and want to know more about your work, want to know more about you, then what's the best place to find you?

00:19:04 Shaun Mader: Uh, sure. First off, professionally, I work with leaders and teams. Uh, I actually don't speak about, uh, this particular topic as publicly. So this is kind of a, a new thing for me to be discussing. Um, I do sometimes deal with this in my private coaching clients. Uh, but if you'd like to connect with me, my name S h a u n M a d e r on LinkedIn. That's an easy way. Um, our consulting company is friction to flow consulting. And, um, if anybody's interested in the leadership, uh, personal development, we have a system called Teamwear that's designed for leaders and teams, uh, develop the leader and the team simultaneously. So, uh, that website is get teamweb. Com.

00:19:50 Shreya: Yes. Um, I will make sure to attach all these details and links below so that the listeners can find them easily and get in touch with you. And for my listeners, if today's conversation reminded you that your sensitivity is not something to hide, but something to understand, then this episode has done its work. Thank you for joining us on Healing Horizons, where we explore the deeper parts of healing, growth, and human connection. Until next time, take a moment, breathe deeply, and remember. Sometimes the very qualities that feel overwhelming are the ones that guide us toward our deepest wisdom. And do not forget to hit the follow button. Subscribe and feel free to share your thoughts because your ears deserve premium content. Thank you.