Speaker: 00:00:00

Be humble that we don't have all the answers

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and we're just trying to learn as well

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and try to put yourself in their shoes,

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how we would feel if people come to us

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like we're coming to them.

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Try to learn what's important to them,

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both in a negative and

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positive sense what they like

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and what they don't like.

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To be their friend really is to listen to them,

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give a listening ear.

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Well, Dan, welcome to the

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Anabaptist Perspectives podcast.

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So we're filming this in Ireland

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and you've lived here for

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28 years, I believe it is.

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That's right.

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And the first question I have for you,

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you were asked to come over here

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as part of an outreach at a church plant.

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What is it like doing an

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outreach in a country like Ireland

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that has at least

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historically really deep Christian roots

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and what all was part of that process?

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And what was the history of

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that as you came over here?

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Well, yes, you're right.

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Ireland has a history of

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being a religious country,

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sometimes called the land of saints and scholars.

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So they've been like Trinity College in Dublin

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has been there for I think over a thousand years.

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It's a very old college

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and the church has been well established here,

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primary the Catholic

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church in the last 100 years,

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although for years before that,

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it was also a Protestant church.

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It's a lot of history there

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when England drove Ireland,

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it was more Protestant and it's more Catholic,

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but it sort of gives the

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people a sense of being Christian

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because they believe the Bible, many of them do,

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and many of them go to church.

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And so there's somewhat a sense of feeling

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that we're already

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Christians, why should we listen to you?

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What are you bringing us?

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Something different.

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In some cases, it's almost

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like they were inoculated

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against the message of the

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gospel that we would want to bring

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because they feel they are

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Christian and they do believe,

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a lot of them would believe

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the same facts of the Bible

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that we believe.

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So yes, I'd say the main aspect of that is then

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that it takes time to

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earn their trust and respect.

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We can't just convince them by talking

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or knocking on the door and handing them a tract

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and saying, "Look, why

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don't you come to our church?"

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They have a church as a rule,

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most of our neighbors would.

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And so we sense pretty

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quickly that we need to just live

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among the people here and live out our faith

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in a day-to-day manner.

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And that's part of the reason that we started

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several different businesses

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here to live and work right

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with the people and reach

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them on a down-to-earth level

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where they live and buying and selling things,

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baking things and so on that

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we are seen to be working people

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and not just living like

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missionaries on missionary dole

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welfare from the States.

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We're trying to earn our own living here

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as much as possible.

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So you're already touching

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on some of this, but yeah,

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the difficulties you encountered, again,

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you've been here 28 years,

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I'm sure you've seen a lot

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of difficulties and challenges.

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You're in a, this isn't your home culture,

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you're originally from America.

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Yeah, describe some of

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those challenges over the years

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or the difficulties of these forms of outreach

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and gaining people and so forth.

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Yes, well, that's the, that is the essence of it

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in that they already have a religion.

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And so we didn't have,

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it's been difficult to have

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local people attending our church services.

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One thing the Catholics in

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the past at least were taught

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that it's a serious sin to cross the threshold

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into a Protestant church or a church

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that's not a Catholic church.

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Interesting, like why? They considered it

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a serious sin.

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Was that just because of

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the conflict between Ireland

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and England historically or

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like the Catholic Protestant?

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More than that, a conflict between Catholics

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and Protestants.

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Interesting.

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I can't really tell you how that developed,

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but I think they called it a venial sin,

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which is a very serious one.

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I'm not sure, I can't

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describe all those terms completely.

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But so much so that some

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of the older people locally

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would never have wanted to

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walk into our church building.

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Wow.

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So it's a serious.

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So that's a pretty

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significant cultural or religious,

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I guess, barrier, difficulty

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that you've had to work with.

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Work with.

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But that thankfully is somewhat changing

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with the younger generation.

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I would say most of the

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generation in the last 20 years now

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growing up wouldn't really have a consciousness

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of that as being so serious.

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So that is improving in

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the sense of breaking down

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those barriers.

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But historically, yeah, there would be stories

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of very serious

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conflict, even very nearby here,

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if a Protestant would

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marry a Catholic or vice versa.

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They could be ostracized,

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their house could be burned,

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or there was just a tremendous conflict

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between the two religions.

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So it's good to keep that in mind

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so we don't come across as being know it all

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and haughty in any way,

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but just to be careful that

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some of them, that's their

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impression of Protestants.

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And see, to them, we're Protestants.

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We don't, Anabaptists are not necessarily

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Catholics or Protestants, but to them,

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if you're not Catholic here, well, some people,

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think we're Mormons, we must be Mormons.

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Oh, interesting.

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But it's kind of like

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that's the only other bucket,

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so to speak, to put people in.

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If you're not Catholic, you have to be this.

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That's, yeah, I'm sure every culture and country

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and people and so forth has particular barriers

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to get across, to engage them.

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And so that, again, that feels

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like a pretty significant one.

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My sense would be, it probably needed

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a lot of patience and faithfulness here.

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Interesting that you use those two words.

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It's a phrase that I have shared with people

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many times is patient faithfulness.

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I didn't know that.

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Oh, that's really interesting.

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Well, please tell me more then, yeah.

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Well, that sort of came from sometimes

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when people are here for a year or two or three

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and the church hasn't grown in numbers

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to where we have 50 or 100 or more people.

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Like you probably would

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find if you move to Africa,

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to Kenya or some of those countries where people

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seem to be more open to the gospel message

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and to a conservative Anabaptist message.

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So sometimes, and we may get into this later,

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but sometimes the pressure

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comes to what's wrong with us.

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We're doing something wrong.

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We need to change.

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We need to make it more

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attractive to the local people.

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But I have observed enough,

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and I could name a number

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of places right off the top

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of my head, where that approach,

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churches have sort of gone that route

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of accommodating the desires of the people

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to make it easier and more platable.

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And I'm not saying there's

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nothing we should consider there,

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but if we do everything people want,

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we end up with, what do we end up with?

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Not much of anything.

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Just give one example.

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One man came, local man, and he said,

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see, we still sit the

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brethren on one side of the sisters

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and the other men and ladies.

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And he said, you will never see,

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local people walk in and see that,

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they'll turn around, walk out.

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They'll not come to a church like that.

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So we talked about it.

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That's not a Bible verse that you can point to

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that we have to do that.

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So anything like that

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that's brought to our attention,

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we will consider it.

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We'll see, is that an accommodation

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we should make to the culture of the people?

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But then when we start talking,

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another man who came from another culture said,

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oh no, don't change that.

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That's one of the things we

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liked about the church here.

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So now how do you please

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these people and these people?

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And you soon see that trying to please the people

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is sort of a dead end road

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because you probably end up displeasing

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as many as you're pleasing

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and maybe not be attractive to anyone.

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So that term patient faithfulness,

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we live out our faith.

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We don't need to jump this

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way and this way and this way

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to try to keep these people from leaving

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or to get them to come.

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But patient faithfulness, year after year,

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we'll show more to the people

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that that's what they want for their families.

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Something that's stable

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and is not shifting quickly.

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We've changed a few things

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and we probably will some more,

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but we don't do it quickly.

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And not just because one or two people think

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we should do this or that.

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So that's where that phrase comes from.

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Yeah, that's really helpful context there.

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So let's flesh that out a bit.

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How did you go about then?

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Like reaching out to your neighbors,

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doing outreach in this area, especially again,

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this is cross-cultural, you know?

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Yes, they speak English here,

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but it is a different

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culture, it's a different place.

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And you've already mentioned like the patience,

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faithfulness, those

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things, but practically speaking,

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what did it look like?

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Or I guess I should say, what does it look like

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in the work you all do here?

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Well, early on, we looked

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for something we could do

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with our hands, partially to develop,

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generate our own income so

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we can be self-supporting

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as much as possible.

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And also so we can

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interact with the local people.

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So interacting with them on a day-to-day basis,

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we were able to purchase a small store locally

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where many people come in every day, really.

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And so we, right away, we

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bought it from a local couple

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who was retiring and so it was a going business.

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But of course they sold tobacco.

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I'm not quite sure if they sold alcohol,

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but they were open Sundays.

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And so when we took it over,

288

00:11:32,233 --> 00:11:33,984

we of course took out all the tobacco

289

00:11:34,193 --> 00:11:36,404

and we started being closed on Sundays.

290

00:11:37,655 --> 00:11:38,656

It was a pretty big

291

00:11:38,656 --> 00:11:40,199

adjustment for the local community

292

00:11:40,533 --> 00:11:43,953

to accept that, but eventually they did.

293

00:11:44,412 --> 00:11:46,914

And of course it's a much bigger business now

294

00:11:46,914 --> 00:11:49,166

than it was when we started with it.

295

00:11:49,792 --> 00:11:52,461

And then with that, we have a stand

296

00:11:52,461 --> 00:11:54,130

with Christian books in it.

297

00:11:54,547 --> 00:11:57,508

And then later we were able to add a special room

298

00:11:57,842 --> 00:11:59,385

as a Christian bookstore as well.

299

00:12:00,261 --> 00:12:03,472

So to invite the local people in,

300

00:12:03,472 --> 00:12:07,601

they come in for their bread and cakes and so on.

301

00:12:08,227 --> 00:12:11,856

And they see a stand with Christian books on it.

302

00:12:12,398 --> 00:12:14,233

And if they look a little bit more,

303

00:12:14,233 --> 00:12:16,527

they'll see the room with a

304

00:12:16,527 --> 00:12:17,653

lot more books and Bibles.

305

00:12:18,529 --> 00:12:19,947

We also from the beginning

306

00:12:19,947 --> 00:12:22,408

started a Choice Books ministry

307

00:12:22,658 --> 00:12:24,493

where we not only sell the

308

00:12:24,493 --> 00:12:26,328

books here locally in our store,

309

00:12:26,328 --> 00:12:28,998

but we supply about 10 other

310

00:12:28,998 --> 00:12:30,833

places all around the country.

311

00:12:31,208 --> 00:12:32,793

Now that's interesting. Choice Books.

312

00:12:33,335 --> 00:12:34,545

I didn't know Choice Books was here.

313

00:12:35,337 --> 00:12:35,921

That's interesting.

314

00:12:36,213 --> 00:12:36,505

Okay.

315

00:12:37,423 --> 00:12:39,717

We just came from there a week or two ago.

316

00:12:40,384 --> 00:12:41,927

Every time we can, we go to Choice Books

317

00:12:41,927 --> 00:12:43,637

in Northern Virginia and

318

00:12:43,637 --> 00:12:45,014

pick out an order of books

319

00:12:45,347 --> 00:12:46,599

and have them sent over here.

320

00:12:48,100 --> 00:12:50,603

So in that way, it's not just local,

321

00:12:50,603 --> 00:12:51,896

but we've developed good

322

00:12:51,896 --> 00:12:53,314

relationships with people

323

00:12:53,314 --> 00:12:55,149

in Dublin and Cork and Limerick

324

00:12:55,149 --> 00:12:57,067

and some of the bigger cities

325

00:12:57,067 --> 00:13:00,112

around and help supply them.

326

00:13:01,071 --> 00:13:02,156

They tend to be in

327

00:13:02,156 --> 00:13:04,200

Christian bookstores or churches

328

00:13:04,783 --> 00:13:07,077

rather than a store like Walmart.

329

00:13:07,453 --> 00:13:08,496

We don't have Walmart's here,

330

00:13:08,496 --> 00:13:11,874

but the general feeling here is,

331

00:13:11,874 --> 00:13:13,292

and this would go back to the culture,

332

00:13:13,292 --> 00:13:14,752

is that you don't mix your

333

00:13:14,752 --> 00:13:16,295

secular with your sacred.

334

00:13:17,254 --> 00:13:22,676

You go to church on Sunday and take care of that.

335

00:13:22,676 --> 00:13:23,511

Then the rest of the week,

336

00:13:23,511 --> 00:13:25,054

you live like everybody else.

337

00:13:25,971 --> 00:13:29,099

And a local person warned us that for us

338

00:13:29,099 --> 00:13:31,602

to put Christian books in our store

339

00:13:31,852 --> 00:13:33,604

where people come in for bread and milk,

340

00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:36,065

they won't like that because

341

00:13:36,065 --> 00:13:37,983

you're sort of like pushing it

342

00:13:37,983 --> 00:13:39,860

down their throat and

343

00:13:39,860 --> 00:13:40,903

they don't like to see that.

344

00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:42,196

They think we should keep

345

00:13:42,196 --> 00:13:44,323

that out of the business arena.

346

00:13:44,823 --> 00:13:46,700

And that just belongs to church on Sunday.

347

00:13:47,493 --> 00:13:51,580

So we appreciated that council, but we didn't,

348

00:13:51,580 --> 00:13:53,541

that's one area we didn't quite listen to them.

349

00:13:53,958 --> 00:13:55,334

And we went ahead and put it in anyway.

350

00:13:55,709 --> 00:13:57,920

And it doesn't affect them.

351

00:13:57,920 --> 00:13:58,796

They can walk right past

352

00:13:58,796 --> 00:14:00,214

and ignore it if they want to.

353

00:14:00,881 --> 00:14:03,008

But it is strategically

354

00:14:03,008 --> 00:14:04,593

right beside our coffee machines.

355

00:14:04,843 --> 00:14:05,886

So as they wait for their

356

00:14:05,886 --> 00:14:07,429

coffee, they're looking around

357

00:14:07,596 --> 00:14:08,847

and they see these books.

358

00:14:09,890 --> 00:14:11,308

And many people do pick

359

00:14:11,308 --> 00:14:12,810

them up and look through them

360

00:14:13,477 --> 00:14:14,687

and buy them off of there.

361

00:14:15,604 --> 00:14:16,772

How we're engaging.

362

00:14:17,523 --> 00:14:22,152

Another way was trying to develop occasions

363

00:14:22,653 --> 00:14:23,988

to invite people in.

364

00:14:24,655 --> 00:14:26,198

Now we do that in our own homes,

365

00:14:26,657 --> 00:14:29,577

but we also do as a church quite early on.

366

00:14:30,035 --> 00:14:33,330

We had once a year, we have a dinner for,

367

00:14:33,831 --> 00:14:35,249

we started with this widows.

368

00:14:35,249 --> 00:14:36,959

We can do a number of elderly widows.

369

00:14:38,419 --> 00:14:39,878

So we invite them for, make

370

00:14:39,878 --> 00:14:41,171

it a real special occasion,

371

00:14:41,797 --> 00:14:45,134

maybe in October, November, before Christmas,

372

00:14:46,260 --> 00:14:47,428

festive occasion.

373

00:14:48,387 --> 00:14:50,848

And so that has grown.

374

00:14:51,098 --> 00:14:51,807

We still do that.

375

00:14:51,807 --> 00:14:53,684

We just did it a week or two ago.

376

00:14:54,059 --> 00:14:56,270

And I don't know, 60 some

377

00:14:56,270 --> 00:14:57,479

people maybe who come in.

378

00:14:58,230 --> 00:14:59,481

And that's from all around.

379

00:14:59,940 --> 00:15:02,735

And it's not only widows anymore, any elderly

380

00:15:03,485 --> 00:15:04,820

or really good local

381

00:15:04,820 --> 00:15:07,239

neighbors, friends who come in

382

00:15:07,239 --> 00:15:09,199

and we'll have a dinner

383

00:15:09,575 --> 00:15:13,203

and we'll have the young people sing a few songs.

384

00:15:13,579 --> 00:15:16,040

And one thing they comment

385

00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:17,541

on is there's no alcohol.

386

00:15:18,292 --> 00:15:19,835

And to them, that's very

387

00:15:19,835 --> 00:15:22,421

strange to have a formal dinner

388

00:15:22,421 --> 00:15:24,173

and not have alcohol with it,

389

00:15:24,715 --> 00:15:27,509

but they know that we just won't have that.

390

00:15:28,969 --> 00:15:30,804

We've also had quite a few neighborhood,

391

00:15:31,555 --> 00:15:34,391

like a summer evening, we'll have a barbecue

392

00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:37,936

and invite all the local neighbors along the road

393

00:15:38,103 --> 00:15:40,564

where we live or one of the other families

394

00:15:40,939 --> 00:15:44,276

and have them come in for an evening meal

395

00:15:44,276 --> 00:15:45,861

and just sit around and outside.

396

00:15:46,987 --> 00:15:48,364

It's a bit rare evenings

397

00:15:48,364 --> 00:15:50,199

here, generally almost too cool

398

00:15:50,282 --> 00:15:52,284

for to sit outside, but

399

00:15:52,284 --> 00:15:54,411

we bundle up if we have to.

400

00:15:56,121 --> 00:16:00,459

So just to try to look for occasions like that

401

00:16:00,459 --> 00:16:02,628

when we can bring them in

402

00:16:02,628 --> 00:16:03,921

without a church service

403

00:16:03,921 --> 00:16:05,506

that we're not preaching at them,

404

00:16:06,590 --> 00:16:08,092

but did love the singing.

405

00:16:08,967 --> 00:16:10,552

And then every year before Christmas,

406

00:16:10,552 --> 00:16:13,180

we'll have a Christmas carol service with again,

407

00:16:13,180 --> 00:16:14,556

the young people and the school children

408

00:16:15,182 --> 00:16:16,975

singing quite a number of songs

409

00:16:17,142 --> 00:16:19,812

and a lot of people like to come for that.

410

00:16:20,854 --> 00:16:23,107

We've had Oasis Chorale here several times

411

00:16:23,565 --> 00:16:25,901

with chorales from the States who come

412

00:16:25,901 --> 00:16:29,488

and then we'll try to have a program here,

413

00:16:29,488 --> 00:16:31,573

but also travel around in some other cities

414

00:16:31,782 --> 00:16:33,367

and churches and programs.

415

00:16:33,659 --> 00:16:36,704

So just various ways like that to reach out

416

00:16:37,454 --> 00:16:38,330

to the local people.

417

00:16:39,873 --> 00:16:41,291

There's definitely

418

00:16:41,291 --> 00:16:44,044

intentionality I'm hearing here.

419

00:16:44,461 --> 00:16:45,879

And we've been in the

420

00:16:45,879 --> 00:16:47,589

community here a couple of days now

421

00:16:47,589 --> 00:16:50,676

and I've been struck by numerous people I've met

422

00:16:50,884 --> 00:16:52,094

or am going to meet here soon

423

00:16:52,469 --> 00:16:54,763

that have come from the local community

424

00:16:54,763 --> 00:16:58,559

or from general area that have joined.

425

00:16:59,101 --> 00:17:02,229

And that's telling me, you're doing something.

426

00:17:02,354 --> 00:17:04,940

That doesn't just happen for no reason.

427

00:17:06,233 --> 00:17:09,194

People finding you and engaging with your church

428

00:17:09,194 --> 00:17:10,154

and what's happening here.

429

00:17:10,779 --> 00:17:12,156

Which brings me to another question

430

00:17:12,156 --> 00:17:14,575

I think is one maybe we all wrestle with.

431

00:17:14,825 --> 00:17:16,577

And that's the topic of welcoming seekers.

432

00:17:17,035 --> 00:17:18,370

So people that are seeking,

433

00:17:18,579 --> 00:17:20,497

maybe they're starting to attend,

434

00:17:21,039 --> 00:17:22,291

whatever the case may be.

435

00:17:22,499 --> 00:17:23,876

What is some practical advice

436

00:17:23,876 --> 00:17:25,669

you would have for our people

437

00:17:25,669 --> 00:17:26,920

as we think about welcoming

438

00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:28,255

seekers into our churches?

439

00:17:28,839 --> 00:17:29,923

And perhaps maybe have a

440

00:17:29,923 --> 00:17:31,383

story to illustrate that as well.

441

00:17:32,342 --> 00:17:35,679

Yes, well, hospitality is a big part of it.

442

00:17:37,806 --> 00:17:39,558

I guess Amish-Mennonites

443

00:17:39,558 --> 00:17:40,934

are known for their good cooking

444

00:17:41,435 --> 00:17:44,480

and it's one thing we can offer to people

445

00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:46,482

and really may be

446

00:17:46,482 --> 00:17:50,235

surprised that many local people

447

00:17:50,319 --> 00:17:51,695

wouldn't have quite the

448

00:17:51,695 --> 00:17:54,239

experience of cooking a big meal

449

00:17:54,323 --> 00:17:56,366

like we would be used to.

450

00:17:56,700 --> 00:18:00,370

So to invite people in and share a good meal

451

00:18:00,496 --> 00:18:03,248

or it can be a simple cup of tea as well.

452

00:18:03,248 --> 00:18:04,541

It doesn't always have to be a meal.

453

00:18:05,918 --> 00:18:11,298

But hospitality to welcome them into our homes.

454

00:18:12,299 --> 00:18:16,970

Also to learn to understand their culture.

455

00:18:19,014 --> 00:18:22,559

I don't think Americans often realize

456

00:18:22,810 --> 00:18:29,566

how we come across to people of other countries.

457

00:18:31,652 --> 00:18:33,320

If you've always lived in the States,

458

00:18:33,612 --> 00:18:34,488

you sort of feel like

459

00:18:34,488 --> 00:18:36,156

America's the center of the world

460

00:18:36,573 --> 00:18:38,450

and everybody else is foreign.

461

00:18:40,077 --> 00:18:44,790

And so to really work on that,

462

00:18:45,415 --> 00:18:49,336

to recognize that to other people,

463

00:18:49,795 --> 00:18:52,172

their place of growing up

464

00:18:52,172 --> 00:18:53,549

is the center of the world.

465

00:18:53,590 --> 00:18:57,594

And we always have to work on this

466

00:18:57,594 --> 00:19:00,973

to not be insensitive in remarks that we make.

467

00:19:02,349 --> 00:19:06,520

Some people come and just sort of make fun of,

468

00:19:06,728 --> 00:19:08,480

you drive on the wrong side of the road.

469

00:19:08,689 --> 00:19:10,107

Why are you driving the wrong side of the road?

470

00:19:11,108 --> 00:19:13,694

Well, it's not really the wrong side of the road.

471

00:19:13,694 --> 00:19:14,987

It's the left side and

472

00:19:14,987 --> 00:19:16,405

it's different from America,

473

00:19:16,405 --> 00:19:19,533

but you go to England or even Kenya,

474

00:19:20,158 --> 00:19:21,159

a lot of other countries

475

00:19:21,159 --> 00:19:22,578

drive on the left side too.

476

00:19:23,620 --> 00:19:26,290

So one thing that we

477

00:19:26,290 --> 00:19:27,749

would say in welcoming seekers

478

00:19:27,958 --> 00:19:30,586

is to be sensitive to their culture

479

00:19:31,044 --> 00:19:35,299

and respect them for who they are

480

00:19:35,465 --> 00:19:40,470

and their sensitivities and Ireland especially

481

00:19:40,721 --> 00:19:44,850

is... Irish people have a long memory.

482

00:19:44,850 --> 00:19:47,519

And for many years,

483

00:19:47,811 --> 00:19:49,271

they were ruled and

484

00:19:49,271 --> 00:19:50,939

oppressed by the British Empire

485

00:19:51,648 --> 00:19:53,192

and they were treated very cruelly.

486

00:19:53,275 --> 00:19:54,484

There's no question about that.

487

00:19:55,110 --> 00:19:56,528

The potato famine, if you

488

00:19:56,528 --> 00:19:58,196

want to do any Irish history

489

00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:01,783

study is very much in the people's minds

490

00:20:02,034 --> 00:20:04,703

still. The blight came through,

491

00:20:04,703 --> 00:20:06,663

people lived on potatoes basically.

492

00:20:08,123 --> 00:20:09,374

And the potato blight came

493

00:20:09,374 --> 00:20:10,959

through and killed the potatoes.

494

00:20:11,293 --> 00:20:12,544

So the Irish people

495

00:20:12,544 --> 00:20:14,379

starved, they had nothing to eat.

496

00:20:15,422 --> 00:20:18,258

But the thing is the English owned the land.

497

00:20:19,092 --> 00:20:21,011

They were Protestant and they made it illegal

498

00:20:21,303 --> 00:20:22,846

for a Catholic to own any land.

499

00:20:23,347 --> 00:20:25,349

So they basically had the Irish as slaves

500

00:20:26,183 --> 00:20:28,852

and they didn't share their

501

00:20:28,852 --> 00:20:30,687

excess, their food with them.

502

00:20:30,979 --> 00:20:33,482

So over a million people died

503

00:20:34,316 --> 00:20:36,777

and another million emigrated to America

504

00:20:36,777 --> 00:20:37,611

and other countries.

505

00:20:38,612 --> 00:20:40,113

Irish people have that in their mind

506

00:20:40,113 --> 00:20:44,076

and it's not only history because to this day,

507

00:20:44,368 --> 00:20:46,662

Northern Ireland belongs to England.

508

00:20:47,371 --> 00:20:51,083

The six Northern most counties on this island

509

00:20:51,917 --> 00:20:53,794

are still British in a

510

00:20:53,794 --> 00:20:55,712

country called Northern Ireland.

511

00:20:55,712 --> 00:20:57,756

It doesn't mean just the North of Ireland,

512

00:20:57,756 --> 00:20:59,383

it's actually a separate country.

513

00:21:00,300 --> 00:21:02,719

And so even the present

514

00:21:02,719 --> 00:21:05,681

generation has a difficult time.

515

00:21:07,015 --> 00:21:07,933

Some people especially

516

00:21:07,933 --> 00:21:11,019

forgetting that or laying that down

517

00:21:12,020 --> 00:21:16,984

and we have to be careful that we don't

518

00:21:17,901 --> 00:21:22,280

don't feed that or say things that make them

519

00:21:23,532 --> 00:21:26,243

feel that more painfully again.

520

00:21:28,078 --> 00:21:30,664

Even in the church, if you have people

521

00:21:30,664 --> 00:21:33,291

of British background and of Irish background,

522

00:21:33,875 --> 00:21:36,378

it can be very difficult to lay down

523

00:21:36,461 --> 00:21:39,464

that ancient animosity between the two

524

00:21:40,007 --> 00:21:41,299

because it goes back generations.

525

00:21:42,259 --> 00:21:44,011

And like I say, it's not only history

526

00:21:44,219 --> 00:21:46,263

because it's still alive in Northern Ireland

527

00:21:46,972 --> 00:21:49,141

and there's a strong push from the Irish

528

00:21:49,391 --> 00:21:51,143

to absorb those six counties

529

00:21:51,143 --> 00:21:53,103

into the Republic of Ireland

530

00:21:53,270 --> 00:21:55,814

where we are here and let

531

00:21:55,814 --> 00:21:56,773

the British go to England

532

00:21:57,024 --> 00:21:58,191

where they belong and

533

00:21:58,191 --> 00:22:01,028

make it all one country here.

534

00:22:01,820 --> 00:22:04,031

So it's actually an active issue.

535

00:22:04,239 --> 00:22:06,867

So politically, you read a lot about it.

536

00:22:06,867 --> 00:22:08,577

Some parties are really pushing for that.

537

00:22:09,327 --> 00:22:11,079

So sensitivity to their culture

538

00:22:11,288 --> 00:22:13,915

is one thing that's very important.

539

00:22:15,167 --> 00:22:17,961

Sometimes ministers even very well meaning

540

00:22:17,961 --> 00:22:21,548

can say things that are

541

00:22:21,548 --> 00:22:23,175

offensive to Irish people.

542

00:22:24,092 --> 00:22:26,636

So try to avoid doing that.

543

00:22:27,512 --> 00:22:30,640

You wouldn't want to across the pulpit talk about

544

00:22:31,641 --> 00:22:34,519

going hunting, a kind of, I

545

00:22:34,519 --> 00:22:36,188

know one minister who gave it.

546

00:22:36,646 --> 00:22:38,982

We had a good example of trapping some animals.

547

00:22:39,858 --> 00:22:42,277

Well in Ireland, trapping or hunting,

548

00:22:42,819 --> 00:22:44,279

there's some hunting but

549

00:22:44,279 --> 00:22:46,782

guns are mostly outlawed.

550

00:22:47,699 --> 00:22:49,159

And so there's a real

551

00:22:49,159 --> 00:22:53,330

sensitive spot for any sport like that.

552

00:22:53,622 --> 00:22:56,166

And Americans are known for being gung ho

553

00:22:56,291 --> 00:22:57,542

on those things.

554

00:22:58,794 --> 00:22:58,835

(laughing)

555

00:22:58,835 --> 00:23:02,422

So there's a whole range of things like that.

556

00:23:04,174 --> 00:23:07,344

It's kind of like entering a culture as a learner

557

00:23:07,427 --> 00:23:11,056

or humbly, perhaps maybe not assuming

558

00:23:12,557 --> 00:23:14,059

oh because this is the way we do things

559

00:23:14,059 --> 00:23:15,310

and obviously this is the

560

00:23:15,310 --> 00:23:16,520

way everybody else is too.

561

00:23:17,020 --> 00:23:17,479

That's right.

562

00:23:17,771 --> 00:23:18,647

It's not. It's not.

563

00:23:19,189 --> 00:23:22,526

The hunting one, I wouldn't have thought of that.

564

00:23:23,110 --> 00:23:24,319

But now that you say it's like oh yeah,

565

00:23:25,112 --> 00:23:26,238

obviously that makes sense.

566

00:23:28,532 --> 00:23:30,450

And I think for people listening to this,

567

00:23:31,326 --> 00:23:33,120

as they interact with their neighbors

568

00:23:33,370 --> 00:23:35,956

or whoever it is, they're doing outreach to.

569

00:23:36,248 --> 00:23:39,000

I think the same principles apply anywhere.

570

00:23:39,126 --> 00:23:39,835

Yes, that's true.

571

00:23:39,835 --> 00:23:40,544

We're dealing with humans.

572

00:23:42,045 --> 00:23:42,712

Which is another question

573

00:23:42,712 --> 00:23:43,839

I wanted to ask you too.

574

00:23:44,881 --> 00:23:46,800

I'm guessing..I'm sure,

575

00:23:47,551 --> 00:23:49,636

quite a few people listening to this podcast

576

00:23:49,636 --> 00:23:51,096

are working in some type

577

00:23:51,096 --> 00:23:53,140

of cross-cultural ministry

578

00:23:53,140 --> 00:23:56,852

whether that's just the immigrant neighbors

579

00:23:56,852 --> 00:23:58,228

that they might have or maybe they're

580

00:23:58,436 --> 00:24:00,730

on the mission field somewhere or whatever.

581

00:24:00,730 --> 00:24:01,731

There's lots of different ways.

582

00:24:02,190 --> 00:24:03,650

What's some advice you would give them

583

00:24:03,817 --> 00:24:04,860

based on your experience

584

00:24:04,860 --> 00:24:06,027

working cross-culturally,

585

00:24:06,027 --> 00:24:07,195

what would you say to those people?

586

00:24:08,196 --> 00:24:09,364

Well it would be similar to

587

00:24:09,364 --> 00:24:12,534

what we've been talking about.

588

00:24:12,742 --> 00:24:16,079

Here is to learn the things that,

589

00:24:16,872 --> 00:24:20,083

try to learn from them and be humble, yes.

590

00:24:20,542 --> 00:24:23,211

Be humble that we don't have all the answers

591

00:24:23,670 --> 00:24:26,715

and we're just trying to learn as well.

592

00:24:28,133 --> 00:24:30,302

And try to put yourself in their shoes,

593

00:24:30,677 --> 00:24:33,930

how we would feel if people come to us

594

00:24:33,930 --> 00:24:35,056

like we're coming to them.

595

00:24:36,308 --> 00:24:38,935

Try to learn what's important to them

596

00:24:39,477 --> 00:24:43,023

and both negative and positive.

597

00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:46,067

Since what they like and what they don't like

598

00:24:46,067 --> 00:24:51,781

to be their friend really is to listen to them,

599

00:24:52,032 --> 00:24:52,991

give a listening ear.

600

00:24:54,951 --> 00:24:57,996

This is what we would have

601

00:24:57,996 --> 00:25:00,290

picked up from here I suppose.

602

00:25:01,500 --> 00:25:03,752

You mentioned stories in the previous question.

603

00:25:04,336 --> 00:25:06,838

I'd like to share this as an example.

604

00:25:07,923 --> 00:25:10,217

In the cultural area, a

605

00:25:10,217 --> 00:25:12,093

local lady who was a good friend

606

00:25:12,093 --> 00:25:17,265

of ours traveled to America and she went to visit

607

00:25:17,766 --> 00:25:25,690

some plain people, Amish-Mennonite people, who were connected

608

00:25:25,690 --> 00:25:26,900

with people here in a way.

609

00:25:26,900 --> 00:25:28,360

They were invited to somebody's home.

610

00:25:29,319 --> 00:25:30,153

So they were there and she

611

00:25:30,153 --> 00:25:31,196

was telling us about this

612

00:25:31,404 --> 00:25:33,365

after she came back and she

613

00:25:33,365 --> 00:25:34,950

said they came to this house

614

00:25:35,158 --> 00:25:37,410

and they went in and sat down and visited

615

00:25:37,619 --> 00:25:40,622

and the people never offered them a cup of tea.

616

00:25:41,331 --> 00:25:44,626

And she said she felt they were judging her

617

00:25:44,751 --> 00:25:47,420

because she's not plain like they are.

618

00:25:47,921 --> 00:25:49,798

And she was very offended by that,

619

00:25:49,798 --> 00:25:51,591

that there was no cup of tea offered.

620

00:25:52,425 --> 00:25:53,885

Well here that's just what

621

00:25:53,885 --> 00:25:55,720

you do when someone comes in

622

00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:57,055

and sits down to talk and

623

00:25:57,055 --> 00:25:58,682

sometimes even a business,

624

00:25:59,557 --> 00:26:01,768

somebody comes to buy a car or something

625

00:26:01,768 --> 00:26:03,395

and you need to sit down and talk about it.

626

00:26:03,770 --> 00:26:05,063

Always offer a cup of tea

627

00:26:05,063 --> 00:26:06,273

is just about the first thing

628

00:26:06,273 --> 00:26:09,359

you offer, tea or coffee, usually tea.

629

00:26:10,485 --> 00:26:12,362

So she was offended

630

00:26:12,362 --> 00:26:14,322

because, and she didn't understand

631

00:26:14,572 --> 00:26:17,701

that that's the American way you might offer

632

00:26:17,701 --> 00:26:19,369

a glass of water maybe or

633

00:26:19,369 --> 00:26:21,371

often don't even really think

634

00:26:21,371 --> 00:26:22,205

about doing that.

635

00:26:23,081 --> 00:26:29,421

And so learning to value their culture

636

00:26:29,421 --> 00:26:31,631

and what is important to

637

00:26:31,631 --> 00:26:35,468

them would be part of the answer

638

00:26:35,593 --> 00:26:36,678

to your question I think.

639

00:26:37,721 --> 00:26:40,640

And then not to, like I was

640

00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:41,683

saying earlier about the church,

641

00:26:42,392 --> 00:26:44,811

not to quickly feel like

642

00:26:44,811 --> 00:26:48,773

we need to change our ways

643

00:26:49,733 --> 00:26:54,029

to attract them or to keep them.

644

00:26:55,864 --> 00:26:58,033

To me that's different than offering cup of tea

645

00:26:58,241 --> 00:27:01,369

or being sensitive to things that we might say

646

00:27:01,369 --> 00:27:03,246

that offend them, all of

647

00:27:03,246 --> 00:27:05,415

those things we really need to do.

648

00:27:05,707 --> 00:27:07,500

But then to change the way we

649

00:27:07,500 --> 00:27:09,044

live out the Christian life,

650

00:27:10,003 --> 00:27:11,546

that's sort of in a different category

651

00:27:11,838 --> 00:27:14,799

as I would understand it, the way we do church,

652

00:27:14,799 --> 00:27:15,300

so to speak.

653

00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:17,010

There too we can do some.

654

00:27:17,886 --> 00:27:20,180

We have our practice in the

655

00:27:20,180 --> 00:27:21,723

past and in many plain churches

656

00:27:22,307 --> 00:27:23,600

is when you kneel in prayer,

657

00:27:24,893 --> 00:27:27,854

you turn around and kneel.

658

00:27:28,772 --> 00:27:30,106

I don't know if you understand what I mean,

659

00:27:30,357 --> 00:27:32,442

on the, you kneel on the floor, of course,

660

00:27:32,442 --> 00:27:33,360

rest your hands on the

661

00:27:33,360 --> 00:27:34,277

bench where you were sitting.

662

00:27:35,236 --> 00:27:36,363

Well, that seemed very

663

00:27:36,363 --> 00:27:37,906

strange to the people here.

664

00:27:38,198 --> 00:27:40,241

And so we made that

665

00:27:40,241 --> 00:27:41,493

adjustment, that accommodation

666

00:27:41,743 --> 00:27:45,038

and we kneel facing forward toward the platform,

667

00:27:45,038 --> 00:27:46,039

toward the speaker and the front.

668

00:27:47,415 --> 00:27:50,085

We feel you can make accommodations like that,

669

00:27:50,126 --> 00:27:52,128

that would be respecting

670

00:27:52,128 --> 00:27:54,297

the culture wherever we can,

671

00:27:54,631 --> 00:27:58,635

that doesn't violate what

672

00:27:58,635 --> 00:27:59,719

we believe is important.

673

00:28:00,178 --> 00:28:02,680

We will look for things like that that we can do.

674

00:28:03,431 --> 00:28:05,141

We start our church services a little later.

675

00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:07,852

Many churches here don't start till 11 o'clock

676

00:28:07,852 --> 00:28:08,728

on a Sunday morning.

677

00:28:10,063 --> 00:28:12,482

What is it often 9:30, I think, in the States?

678

00:28:13,024 --> 00:28:13,441

Many times.

679

00:28:13,775 --> 00:28:15,485

And that would just seem

680

00:28:15,485 --> 00:28:16,861

very strange to people here.

681

00:28:17,529 --> 00:28:20,490

So we started 10:30, we tried

682

00:28:20,490 --> 00:28:21,699

to sort of hit a middle ground

683

00:28:21,783 --> 00:28:25,745

but accommodations like that, we can make

684

00:28:26,079 --> 00:28:29,165

and try to make it a bit

685

00:28:29,165 --> 00:28:31,000

more like the culture here

686

00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:31,626

where we can.

687

00:28:32,919 --> 00:28:36,423

So as we wrap this episode up

688

00:28:36,423 --> 00:28:38,842

and we're thinking about reaching out

689

00:28:38,842 --> 00:28:41,177

to those cross-culturally or missions,

690

00:28:41,719 --> 00:28:43,638

maybe someone listening to this is working

691

00:28:43,638 --> 00:28:44,931

with their neighbors that

692

00:28:44,931 --> 00:28:46,141

are refugees, et cetera.

693

00:28:47,142 --> 00:28:49,102

Is there any encouragement or anything else

694

00:28:49,102 --> 00:28:51,980

you would like to leave with the listeners

695

00:28:52,981 --> 00:28:54,441

based on what we've been talking about today?

696

00:28:56,443 --> 00:28:58,236

Can't really think of, I think we've covered

697

00:28:58,236 --> 00:28:59,195

most of the bases.

698

00:29:01,406 --> 00:29:04,909

The hospitality is important to welcome them in,

699

00:29:05,994 --> 00:29:07,078

give a listening ear,

700

00:29:07,495 --> 00:29:09,038

especially if it would be refugees.

701

00:29:11,124 --> 00:29:14,085

They've often been traumatized and gone through

702

00:29:14,627 --> 00:29:15,753

difficult experiences.

703

00:29:17,255 --> 00:29:20,341

If I can just give you another quick story

704

00:29:20,341 --> 00:29:23,011

of a local lady that might, I don't know,

705

00:29:23,011 --> 00:29:25,346

would it quite fit that, but it might.

706

00:29:26,556 --> 00:29:30,101

She was a Jehovah's Witness and she visited one

707

00:29:30,101 --> 00:29:33,646

of our families and started noticing some things

708

00:29:33,646 --> 00:29:37,525

that she liked in that family and started coming

709

00:29:37,734 --> 00:29:38,693

with her questions,

710

00:29:39,527 --> 00:29:42,405

wondering whether we have something

711

00:29:42,572 --> 00:29:43,740

that she doesn't.

712

00:29:44,657 --> 00:29:46,493

And so she started coming to our house

713

00:29:46,951 --> 00:29:50,121

and so for several years she would come,

714

00:29:50,371 --> 00:29:53,541

every Monday evening, she studied the Bible

715

00:29:53,958 --> 00:29:57,045

with the church she was with, but they taught her

716

00:29:57,045 --> 00:29:59,923

that they're the only right church and yet

717

00:30:00,423 --> 00:30:00,965

there were just some

718

00:30:00,965 --> 00:30:02,342

things that didn't quite line up

719

00:30:02,342 --> 00:30:04,511

in her way of thinking.

720

00:30:05,929 --> 00:30:09,474

And so night after night she would come

721

00:30:10,016 --> 00:30:14,812

and this is what she would say is that "My church

722

00:30:15,021 --> 00:30:18,149

says they are right and you are wrong.

723

00:30:18,858 --> 00:30:19,943

You are saying you are

724

00:30:19,943 --> 00:30:21,945

right and my church is wrong.

725

00:30:22,445 --> 00:30:24,864

How can I know who is right?

726

00:30:25,573 --> 00:30:26,866

I want what's right."

727

00:30:28,660 --> 00:30:31,788

And she had tears streaming down her face.

728

00:30:32,705 --> 00:30:35,917

She wanted what was right in a very desperate way.

729

00:30:37,335 --> 00:30:39,879

How could we persuade her that we are right

730

00:30:40,088 --> 00:30:42,590

and the church is wrong, we couldn't,

731

00:30:43,174 --> 00:30:45,635

but we just assured her that God will show her

732

00:30:46,344 --> 00:30:47,595

as she desperately, as she

733

00:30:47,595 --> 00:30:49,305

sincerely wants the truth.

734

00:30:50,223 --> 00:30:53,226

And at first she could not accept a Bible from us

735

00:30:53,351 --> 00:30:54,561

because they had their own Bibles

736

00:30:54,561 --> 00:30:57,105

and they won't look at any other translation.

737

00:30:58,022 --> 00:30:59,274

But the day came when she

738

00:30:59,274 --> 00:31:01,276

finally did accept a Bible

739

00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:04,070

that was not a Jehovah's Witness Bible.

740

00:31:04,487 --> 00:31:06,030

And once she started reading that,

741

00:31:06,573 --> 00:31:09,659

it started to open her eyes till the day came

742

00:31:10,326 --> 00:31:12,161

and she gave her heart to the Lord.

743

00:31:13,162 --> 00:31:14,622

She is a Christian to this day.

744

00:31:15,039 --> 00:31:16,916

So it took years.

745

00:31:17,917 --> 00:31:20,169

And if you, so the idea of

746

00:31:20,169 --> 00:31:21,879

patience there comes in again,

747

00:31:22,589 --> 00:31:26,884

to just, you can't force it, you can't rush it,

748

00:31:27,343 --> 00:31:31,264

but to be a friend and give a listening ear

749

00:31:32,098 --> 00:31:36,311

and many cups of tea or whatever they like

750

00:31:37,061 --> 00:31:39,689

and just be a genuine friend.

751

00:31:40,356 --> 00:31:42,358

That's about the best I could say, I guess.

752

00:31:42,859 --> 00:31:43,860

And point them to the Lord,

753

00:31:44,485 --> 00:31:47,196

but you don't always start with a Bible verse

754

00:31:47,196 --> 00:31:49,032

or a Bible or a tract, you know,

755

00:31:49,032 --> 00:31:52,452

it can be the cup of tea, the friendship

756

00:31:52,660 --> 00:31:55,788

that they feel first and then that can.

757

00:31:56,914 --> 00:31:57,915

It's a very good book written,

758

00:31:58,207 --> 00:32:00,001

The Gospel Comes with a House Key.

759

00:32:00,001 --> 00:32:01,502

Have you seen that? Yes, I've read it.

760

00:32:01,502 --> 00:32:02,503

Oh, it's excellent, yeah.

761

00:32:02,962 --> 00:32:03,671

That's the idea.

762

00:32:04,088 --> 00:32:04,714

Mm-hmm.

763

00:32:05,757 --> 00:32:07,800

That's a powerful note.

764

00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,345

It is testimony to. Yeah.

765

00:32:10,970 --> 00:32:12,388

That lady you're talking about there,

766

00:32:12,972 --> 00:32:14,223

God will show you, right?

767

00:32:14,599 --> 00:32:16,559

And there's that verse, If you seek, you'll find.

768

00:32:17,060 --> 00:32:18,519

Jesus is very clear about that.

769

00:32:18,519 --> 00:32:20,605

If you're seeking, you'll find.

770

00:32:21,147 --> 00:32:22,857

And pointing people to that

771

00:32:22,857 --> 00:32:24,442

and reminding them of that.

772

00:32:24,859 --> 00:32:26,194

That's a powerful note to end on.

773

00:32:26,402 --> 00:32:27,987

Thank you, Dan, for the

774

00:32:27,987 --> 00:32:29,238

28 years you've lived here

775

00:32:29,238 --> 00:32:31,157

and the stories you've shared with us today.

776

00:32:32,241 --> 00:32:33,534

I think there's a lot that

777

00:32:33,534 --> 00:32:35,286

we can learn from your story.

778

00:32:35,286 --> 00:32:35,995

So thank you for sharing.

779

00:32:36,454 --> 00:32:36,746

Thank you.

780

00:32:38,456 --> 00:32:40,875

Thanks for listening to this episode with Dan.

781

00:32:41,125 --> 00:32:42,126

If you found this interesting,

782

00:32:42,126 --> 00:32:44,128

you should check out this other episode we did

783

00:32:44,128 --> 00:32:46,631

with Allen Roth on the subject of church planting.

784

00:32:46,839 --> 00:32:47,882

You can find that linked in

785

00:32:47,882 --> 00:32:49,300

the description down below.

786

00:32:49,926 --> 00:32:50,968

And of course, you can find

787

00:32:50,968 --> 00:32:52,345

all the content we've made

788

00:32:52,595 --> 00:32:55,556

on our website at anabaptistperspectives.org.

789

00:32:55,807 --> 00:32:57,517

We also have a monthly email newsletter,

790

00:32:57,517 --> 00:32:59,352

which you can subscribe to on the website.

791

00:33:00,061 --> 00:33:00,937

Thanks again for listening

792

00:33:01,354 --> 00:33:02,772

and we'll see you in the next episode.