So in today's episode, we're joined by Alison Blackler, who

is a mind coach and author from Two

Minds. And Alison's also got her own podcast called

Mental Wealth. So welcome, Alison. Oh, thank

you. Thanks so much for having me on your podcast. It's absolute pleasure.

Brilliant. Alison, first thing I always like to ask

people is what is driving anxiety mean

to you? Does that mean to me? Good question. I

think for me, it means that somebody has

probably put a greater importance or a

bigger they made it into a much bigger thing than

the actual driving. Because quite often people talk, don't they, about

the actual driving bit is actually once you've got the mirror signal

over and you've got everything sorted, it's sort of

okay, isn't it? Sort of fairly straightforward. But

the anxiety bit is the bit I think people just learned on the

top, probably. Rightly. So to start with, there might be a trigger, there might be

a reason why, but I think they then make it, like a lot of people

do, about a lot of things a million times worse than it actually needs

to be. Because how often do you hear someone say, I was wrong or nervous

about something, I went and did it, I pushed myself or I got the right

support and then it was okay. And I think many of that for so

many things, don't we? And I think driving is up there. Yeah, exactly.

Definitely. And hearing you talk there made me think very much

about driving test anxiety and driving test

nerves, because that's exactly what we hear all the

time. Yeah. Probably the way that you say it as well was

someone said, do you know what? I just went and did it. And it wasn't

as bad as I thought. The examiner was quite human,

because the. Human brain, I mean, obviously I specialize in the human brain. The human

brain joins up the gaps, makes up things

if you're not careful, especially if your limbic system, which is your emotional the

anxiety bit of your brain, if that's running the show, it will

be catastrophizing. It'll make something feel a million

times worse. So you're not just managing then, your physical feelings,

you're actually then trying to manage your big piece of kit, which is telling you

all sorts of things that may or may not be true. Yeah,

I like that way that you describe your brain as being a bit of

kit, because that's what it is, isn't it? It's the

toolkit that's running the show. Yeah. And it can be

your greatest asset, because the human brain is amazing,

but it can also be your worst enemy. And I think for

people to understand that that's why I look around shows like

this. Because I think if we can help ourselves understand a bit more

about this piece of kit, so drive ourselves a little

manual, then you've got a greater chance of being able to have

a better experience with whatever it is that you're trying to do. So if you're

trying to pass your driving test or just trying to get into a lesson

even before, never mind the driving test. But I think that sort of making

it worse is definitely a thing that humans do.

Yeah, well, we're always I guess it's part of keeping us

safe, isn't it? We're always on the lookout for that worst case

scenario, because if we can be prepared for that,

then we're okay, we're going to survive.

But it's not always helpful because these thoughts are not

facts. It's often far removed from the truth,

isn't it? Yeah, but I think it is right to say that it

is normal for us to have these responses and we

wouldn't survive. I mean, our ancestors would not have survived if

they hadn't had this emotional response to this

danger, to the Cybertooth tiger or whatever, to

fight it, to run away or to fruise and hope that it ate you and

not me. We had to have that. But

we've moved on as humans since those days when we were all

crawling around in the jungle. But this emotional response is the same.

So that emotional response can be triggered from thinking that your

friends done better than you or worrying about

whether the instructor you said is nice or the

examiner, thank you, Lord, what's the word there? The examiner making up

that they are the scale of the Menster that's

busting through your door. If you think that, then your brain

will be putting you into that same response, that kind

of keeps us alive and keeps us safe. And to me, it's that relationship

we have with that that is critical to make

it a better experience. Because we all love making stories up, don't

we? Totally. We love having a story, don't

we? So if I'm making this story up about

driving and driving is going to be the worst thing ever and I'll

never be able to do it, what can we do that could help us

plan for that? So I think we can think about

stories, like transferring stories, so when we

can transfer a story to a different thing, because the subconscious mind, which

is what we're talking about here, doesn't know the difference between something

that you have done, something that you haven't done. So if you are good at

doing something so most people are good at doing something,

whatever that might be, someone will tell you tell stories, I'm good at

that, I can do that. Well, tying shoe

races, for example. Most people, unless you're very young,

are good at that. And in your brain, you can then

make a connection to say, well, I'm good at that, so I'll just talk about

that. And I can say, well, if I've learned how to do that, I'll be

able to learn how to do this. So we've got to be careful of the

stories that we add into something new. But I

think the other thing is absolutely right to say that if it's

new, then you haven't got a reference, we haven't got something

in our mind. So then the mind might make up a load of stories or

start to add or the other thing that we do is we start to tell

other people's stories and then that doesn't help you either. So

for me, it's about looking at something that you know you're good at and then

looking at how you do that. How do you think about that

thing that you're good at? Are you kind to yourself about

it? Are you encouraging? Could you be your own cheerleader

leader? And you will be. So how do we then say, okay, here's a new

thing driving. How do we then start to tell our minds? Because it

doesn't know the difference between something that you have done or you are

imagining that you've done it. So I think we can create the stories,

but link it, if you can, to something that you know you're already good at.

I like that. Yeah, I do. Yeah, that makes sense.

And we're big fans of using that type of

imagery as well because it can be used in so many ways. So

it's so useful when it's used positively because we're all

really good at using those things negatively. So let's

switch them round and use them to our advantage instead

of our disadvantage. I mean, almost things are no

brainer. Why do we do that thing where we

are super negative? Yes, we know that we are risk averse, so

we can often be being over cautious about

things. And I would imagine in driving, that can be good, to be

a bit cautious, but also very disabling if you're too cautious because

that in itself can be quite dangerous. I'm only imagining,

but I think it would be you could tell me otherwise. It's a long time

since I did my driving test, but I think just being

able to not be so hard on yourself, to be kind of a

bit more positive around those small things

you'll hear me on? Anything I talk about is what's the one small thing

that you can take from this? Or what's the one small thing that went well

today? Or what's the one small thing that went well on my driving test

or my driving lesson? Because there will be stuff,

but guess what? Home on the humans, we're home in a

minute that didn't go so well. And then talk about that and think

about that and drive ourselves mad. So I would imagine in a

driving lesson, there might be something that was a bit harder, but there'd be

50%, 70% that went really, really well. What is it in

humans? Why do we do that? We have to make ourselves kind of almost

talk about the things that have gone well to shift our

attention, because it will be dragging us back to that. Well, that wasn't good

enough. And then, obviously, we've all got our layers of what

we've heard when we were younger and how we are processing. We've

got all that to deal with as well. Yeah,

I could talk for hours about that. I could talk for hours, but, yeah, I

won't for the moment. How does it

affect someone that's had the experience, then? Because the

people that tend to reach out to us for help have

had the experience of driving, but are now all

of a sudden, for no apparent reason, they have a fear of driving,

or they have a fear of motorways. Motorways seems to be a popular one,

I mentioned that one. So what's happened there? Because there's nothing really

bad happened, but what's happened to someone

that now has that fear? So phobias, because that's

almost a phobia, isn't it? Can start from hardly anything,

but it's where we've paid attention to something

and made that become the truth. So sometimes

people will have some things very small that's happened, and then suddenly

it's a big deal. So they have a little incident in a lift, or not

even an incident lift, but they've suddenly decided that a lift, for example,

something was going to happen. But actually, what's quite interesting is we're often not

fearful of the thing that we're fearful, we're fearful of what's not

happening. So we're not actually scared of the driving,

we're scared that something's going to happen. And I think that's where people

get very lost. So I was working with somebody just the other week, last

week, and she says she's got a fear of flying, but she hasn't got a

fear of flying, has she? She's got a fear of something happening, she's got a

fear of being out of control. And I think that's

where a lot of people's phobias come from, is that they fear that they

are not in control. And I guess with

driving, we all can drive the car, probably really well.

It's everyone else, isn't it, that people then become very worried about

everyone else, and that's out of your control.

And as humans, we like to be in control. So I

wonder for some of those people, whether they've just suddenly

something's changed in their life, they've suddenly got that realization

of other people, or again, very experienced drivers.

I've had people myself who've just suddenly decided that driving on the

motorway or driving in the dark has just become too difficult.

But I think for me, it's about how they've dealt with that, because if you

respect the fact that that's happened and then work with yourself

kindly, you've got more of a chance of helping yourself.

What most people do is get really cross and angry with themselves,

start to get very upset, start to then it then starts to

affect more of their life. So now I can't go places because I

can't go on the monitor way, or I can't go over a

bridge, so I can't go to that person's house, or I

now can't do that. So then it starts to affect more of their life, and

I think that's when it starts, they've made it into this massive

thing. And I'm still respecting the fact that they're nervous, by the way, because that's

the way the human brain is, but we then end up affecting

us more, so it becomes a bigger thing. So then they talk about it more

and then suddenly it's, like, took over and that

really becomes the phobia or the fear, isn't it?

It's the way that they're thinking about it, the way they're talking about it, the

way that it's impacting on their life. Because there's lots of things

that we all don't like to do, but if it doesn't affect your life, then

you probably just let it go. I know. I don't want a bungee

job. Me neither. I knew

that. I'm happy about that. I don't need to try and make myself

do it. I don't want to do it. So I made a strong decision about

that and I'm okay with that. But I think when it's something like you've been

driving and if you are a driver and you've always just got in

the car and then suddenly you can't, for whatever reason,

and then you've make it, it affects more of your life. I think that's where

people start to get really down on themselves and then

build it into this enormous thing that then is more

difficult to manage. But obviously they've got you

to reach out to. I'm going to be

totally random here. I know there's a fear of spiders,

fear of bridges, and is there an actual word for a fear of

driving? I don't know. Probably will be. Tracy

knows. Yes. I believe it's

venophobia. I'm going to jump in quickly here to

correct that. It's actually veophobia. Or there is

another word that I hadn't heard of, which is amoxophobia.

That was testing me. But yes, there is definitely a word for

it. I'm not always the best at

remembering the right words. There is actually.

I mean, there's a bit of everything, isn't there? There's a word. Don't even

ask me where that came from. It was just like, this is a. Bit random,

putting us all on the spot. Well, I

didn't know the answer to that. Sorry. I sometimes do that.

Sometimes I just have this random thought and it comes out.

Anyway, back to the podcast. You've answered my question.

I'm wondering if it's worth talking a little bit more about

reinforcement and associations, because

I think a lot of what we've just been chatting around, those are

the words that keep popping up in my head that I'm jotting down when you're

talking. So can we talk a little bit more about how that works, how that

might play out? I think association, I

think the first thing to say is that the human brain is an association making

machine. So everything that we're seeing,

talking about, hearing, feeling, tasting and smelling

is connected to our five senses, but it's like

everything that comes into our five senses, I always think

of it as like a great big, huge filing cabinet full of

everything that you've ever smelt, tasted, seen, heard,

et cetera. And it's just there and these little minions have to

go, but what does this mean right now for

me? Because, remember, it's trying to make you safe. So what does this mean

right now? So people see things, hear things and there's

sometimes a panic, I've got to get my

association. So I think it's fair to say that that is what's

happening. It's how you can use that to help

yourself, I think is the critical part. You can use that piece

of kit because, yes, it's there for just in case. So if you have

had something, it's right that your mind says, we would still all

be burning our hands on the fire if we didn't have that

childhood, don't touch the fire. And

eventually you touch it, don't you? And you don't ever touch it again

or, you know, to respect it. You mean what you just made me

think about that as children, because we learn so much, don't we,

from our childhoods? We learn through getting it wrong, we

learn from our caregivers. They telling us all the time this

don't do this, don't do that. And I wonder with driving, because obviously

as children, we don't have that experience, do we? We just get in cars,

don't we, as children? And you just made me thinking, I've got

no legs particularly about this, but as we're saying random things, I'm

just going to share it. I do wonder,

some people who do get very anxious about driving, I

wonder if they might not know because we

don't have a conscious thought about everything, but it is

stored in there whether there is any link to

how their parents or their adults

drove or how they thought about driving. So it

isn't. You'll hear people say, oh, my mom was quite

anxious driver that makes sense because we do

copy so much as children. But I wonder whether there is

any link for some people with that unconscious just

being in a car. Not particularly aware of

how the driver was doing, but actually the driver themselves was

unsure. Bit nervous, had an incident,

not necessarily with a kid in the car. So you wonder, don't you, whether

if there was a correlation between that, which they

don't remember, they don't have any memory of, but there's something

that the mind's remembering. Yeah,

I would imagine. Yes. Because certainly

there's a high percentage of people that we talk to who, like you say, they

know, they remember. They say, my family

history of driving is XYZ.

And that's something we hear quite a lot. And it's something that people

will freely say right at the very beginning. It's not

something we have to dig very hard for. So, yes, I wouldn't

mind betting that there's some unconscious

secret, because I think. It'S like anything, isn't it? When I used to do

a lot of furviews, if someone came to me and said, I've got a thunder

flying and it's because I was in a huge, turbulent thing and

la la. So they've got a story. But then there's other people who don't have

that story. It just happened one day. They've just

suddenly had that connection with something. And there's so much

that we pick up from other people. So much that

we just never really know. I suppose I'm liking it because my dad

was a very confident driver and I'd say my mom probably wasn't as much

and I definitely drive like my dad, because I think he taught me

to drive and it was like, you'll be assured if you get on with

it and that's it. And yes, he taught me, so

that's where I've learned it from. But there's still something in that sort of coding,

isn't there, about what was expected? And I wonder, with the association, whether some

people just don't remember but they have got something that

their mind has connected with. But then the other thing about

the brain, of course, is it can make associations that are

incorrect or it's part of the coding. So I

think the best example of this is when we were all learning to read out

at school, it was quite terrifying, we were learning,

but we didn't want to look silly in front of our friends, we didn't want

anyone to laugh at us, we didn't want to be ridiculed, so we worried a

lot about that. So that was our childhood experience. Fast

track now to adult life. And somebody says to you at work, or could you

just do a presentation? And everyone goes and it takes

them back to as if they were about six when they were reading out at

school and the fear of humiliation and the fear and I can

remember trying to work out which paragraph would be mine

and trying to, but I couldn't because my friends were

reading their and I wasn't clever enough at that age to

be able to read and have somebody else talking at the same time. But

that's a really obvious association, that when you say that most people go,

oh, yes, that's me, terrified of speaking out in

public because we all had that experience in

school. So the association with driving

cars, they are quite terrifying in a way, aren't

they? And definitely other drivers are definitely

terrifying, but I wonder about that, that sort of level of

control and what your experience has been

like when I'm training. People to drive, it's quite interesting

when you ask them who's the good driver? Who's not a good driver?

Dad's potentially not a good driver because he's too

fast and Mum is a safe driver because

she's slow. What would you like to drive like, is the

question. And they said, well, sometimes my dad, sometimes my mum, and

it's quite interesting having those conversations, because it is like

they've never driven before, but the association with driving

and they can grab little bits of their experiences,

can't they? And this is where that comes in. The association with driving

is that form is quite good in some ways, but that form

is better in others. So being able to do that and grab that

experience and take out what they want is almost a skill, isn't

it? Yeah, definitely. Because it is a choice,

so you should be able to choose. It is a choice

in a lot of ways. You can choose how you're going to react

and how you're going to behave and what information you're going to choose to take

on board and what you're going to choose to do about

it. Definitely. I think the other thing that's

popping up for me, just when you were talking about the

mum and dad kind of differences, et cetera, I think that's

almost everything, isn't it? That you've managed to understand

as a young teenager, you've got a bit of everything,

bit of dad, bit of mom, whatever that might be good and bad and indifferent

and that's navigating. That, isn't it? Even if it's

happening while you're literally learning to drive, it's like, Gosh, I

don't know which one to be. In a way, we're doing that all the time.

You'll sometimes hear people say, gosh, I sound like my dad, or Gosh, you sound

like my mom, or I'm being like this. And actually, we're almost sort of

trying to navigate that through life, never mind just through

driving, of which bits of dad do you want to keep on and which

wits do you want to ditch? And vice versa. That's

part of my personal journey is I definitely wanted to let go of some of

the things that I'd been shown how to do, because it wasn't the way I

wanted to do it. I think it's an interesting question for somebody

to ask them, what kind of a driver do you want to be?

Where do you want to be? I wish there was more people who ask themselves

that question out there.

Definitely. And if somebody's an anxious driver, to

maybe ask themselves the question of what would it look like if

I wasn't an anxious driver? What would I look like to be

a I was going to say normal, but I'm not sure that's quite the

right word to be an average driver. Safe.

Safe driver. Yes. See, the driving instructor is always going to say

safe. In control. In control, as we've mentioned that

already. Yeah, just link that. But that's the sort of thing, isn't it?

It's the words that we're using, isn't it?

So many people are focused on what they don't want, so I don't want to

be worried, I don't want to have a crash, I don't want to this,

I don't want to that. And actually, the subconscious mind gets very confused

about what you're trying to focus on there. So

if you can hear yourself saying, I don't want to feel stressed,

I don't want to be anxious, I don't want to be worried, it's

really asking yourself, well, what do you want instead? Because

so many people, even though on a logical level, as a human,

as an adult, when someone says, I don't want to be stressed, on one

level, everyone's like, oh, yeah, well, of course that means you want to be

relaxed. But the subconscious mind remembers all these little means. It's

like, what do you want us to do? We don't know.

So it focuses on the word that you've used. So it

hills. Be stressed, stressed, be anxious, be

worried, be nervous. And then, of course, that triggers all the

physical symptoms to which I know you've talked about on other

shows. And it computers, the mind. Whereas

if you really solidly, think about something really simple,

safe, calm, relaxed, and just focus

on that because you've got other parts of your life where you are. That's

where we were talking about before. Bring that in. So imagine that you're

doing the hobby that you're really good at or something that you really

love, and imagine that you're just doing that again, your mind

will allow you to do that. It'll play. I'm a big fan

of helping us be a bit more playful, because the part of

the mind that we're talking about here is a bit like a two year old

child. So we've got to be playful with it and say, okay, I'm not actually

sitting in a car. I'm sitting in whatever it is that you love to

do. Yeah, great. And being specific

with a positive emotion, because

that's going to set your brain, your mind on the

right track. It's less confusing, like you say, you're telling your

mind what you want, being specific.

It's almost like modeling, isn't it? It's modeling that I won't

say perfect driving, because I don't think there is. But what would a good driver

drive like and then drive like that driver? Can you drive like

your mum? Can you drive like your dad? But it's exactly that, isn't it? It's

modeling and see what happens, see what it feels like it is. But I think

paying attention to the kind of now and what's happening

right now is actually oil that's here, that's the

only bit we can actually control is what's happening right now, this very

second. Anything else is either gone or hasn't happened yet.

And I think just thinking about in that moment, how do I need to be?

How would I like to be? And put your attention on that. But I think

things like driving or when people are really trying to work with a lot of

anxiety. It's that small consistent

thing. Decide what is it? What's your word? I want to be

calm. I'm calm. I'm okay, I've got this. Something really solid.

Because sometimes we kind of end up getting overwhelmed with thinking

we need to be something even more sort of the next step. If you

like, you can't necessarily choose that we are

going to be driving like somebody who's been driving for years. That's not your goal.

It's chunking that right down, isn't it? And just be really mindful. And that's the

other thing that so many people do is they don't then celebrate when they have

got something. When they've done well, they don't get out the car and say that

was great. And again, Shaman Blay has spent all his

childhood hearing feedback for everything, all through school

and every step of the way. Feedback, feedback. Well done, well done. Even if

you colored in outside the lines, you still got a well done. And then you

become old enough to drive. So a young adult and anything older

and no one does that anymore. So we've got to be our own

agent and celebrate every step of the

way, but all of the things that you have managed to achieve, because

if you don't, your mind's just going to go, oh, well, that obviously isn't

any good. And it'll just then autopilot straight into the not

good. Yeah. And we do say that.

We're always saying, how are you going to reward yourself? Break it down

into tiny chunks and then when you've done it

reward yourself, celebrate. And it's always alcohol

that comes out. Or chocolate for some reason.

On the podcast it's normally chocolate, but yes, on some of the emails

we get, it's often alcohol. It's

interesting. We talk about rewarding things. One of the things I hear people

so somebody might ask you, so say scenario is somebody's had a driving

lesson and then their friend or their family member

says, how did it go? The thing that comes out of your mouth

at that first point is critical because

your subconscious mind is earwigging and listening, isn't it? So you need

to really have something really strong to say. When someone says, how

was your driving lesson? It was great.

Or it went really well. Because what you often hear

is something not like that. They'll say,

yes, it went, but there was a bot or there was

something that they then. So for me, if

anyone's, any of your people are listening, it's what is that thing that you're

going to say the minute somebody asks you how was your driving lesson? And maybe

you do that anyway, carefully you make sure they've got

this sentence that they're going to say when their friend or their mom says, how

was your lesson? Have something really strong. Because they talk

about being that reinforcement. So your mind goes, oh, okay, that was

good. Well, we can do that again. And

we get that. Oxytocin. Buz. That dopamine buz. And

we love that feeling. We've got to reinforce that wherever we

can. Yeah, brilliant. So what did you achieve

and who are you going to tell? So,

Alison, when we were first talking about you being a guest on the

podcast, and we were saying about driving

anxiety, was there anything that you thought,

oh, I hope they ask me this, or, I really want to talk about this.

Is there anything we haven't covered that you were keen

to get across? I think the end of the thing that a

lot of people do, a lot of adults do, is they compare themselves to

others. If you do that favorably. So

if you've seen somebody that is doing something that you like and

admire and you think, you know what, I'd like to do a bit of that.

You're not trying to be them, you're just trying to copy something. So it's the

modeling copy something that they're doing. But I think with

success and achievement, it's so important,

especially something like driving is be in your

own lane, be happy with where you are. Don't feel like

you've got to rush. Take your time. I'm sure, again, you would do

that with them. But don't worry if your friend's already passed

or you've taken so many times, it doesn't matter,

because it's how and what you do

that matters, and it's the efforts that you put in that is so important. So

I think that's the only thing, really, that is so important,

because we are obsessed with comparing ourselves and it doesn't

always serve us. Yeah, definitely.

Lovely. And then we're going to ask

you another question, which is, if you can cast your

mind back to when you were learning to drive, what did you

find the most difficult? Interesting

question. I'm trying to think it was quite some time ago. I'll tell you

one thing I'd used to hate, and I don't think they do this anymore, but

when they used to, you knew that the emergency stop was

coming, but you didn't quite know when it was

coming. And it was like, I remember that being quite scary,

but I don't think they do that anymore, do they? Yeah, emergency stops. They

still do that, right. Okay. My dad trained me really

well to reverse, and I'm so grateful that he stuck

at it, because I know getting into car parking spaces is something.

But you know what? I think thinking back to

driving, it wasn't driving the car, it was everyone else.

That's what used to concern me the most, and I think that's probably still true

today, having driven for I don't even want to say how long,

but I think there is the unpredictability of other people. And

I think experience comes from watching the road,

doesn't it? Looking ahead, being able to guess

ish what people are

going to do next. And of course, that isn't one of life's

bubba's questions. What is everyone else going to do next? We don't know, do

we? So for nothing again, it's a bit like driving in your own lane.

Get in your own lane, stick to that, whatever that is, whether that's you driving

or that's you in life. And I think from there, you've got a

chance to have it the way you want. Oh,

yeah. That's a nice finish. Yeah, that's a lovely

note to finish on. Thank you.

Allison. Where can people find out more about

you and listen to your podcast? So, a podcast

launched only a little while ago. It's called Mental Wealth, the podcast

to invest in your mind. And that's where I'm giving lots of little

tips about how to get the best out of you, how to more confident,

how to think about purpose. And I'm going to touch on mental health,

because obviously, some of what we're talking about is a bit

deeper than just people's minds worrying about something, so I think we need to

respect that. I've also got them on all usual

Instagrams and Facebooks and everything like that,

and my website is WW

TwoMinds co UK. And, yeah, if anyone hears

this and wants to reach out and say hi, that would be amazing.

Fantastic. And all of the links for those will be in the show notes, so

everybody can find them in there. Brilliant. Thank you very

much, Alison. It's been a pleasure talking to you. Same. Thank

you so much for having me. And obviously, you're going to come and be a

guest on my show as well sometime soon, aren't you? Exactly, yeah.

Fantastic. Can't wait. Looking forward to it. Yeah. Thanks