And so let's say you were the church at Pergamum, right?
And you get this, and you, you pay special attention to your letter, right?
You're like, whoa, this is a letter from Jesus.
And then you
read the rest of the book with your letter in mind.
And when you see stuff, you're going to see lots of stuff
in the rest of the book of Revelation that points back to your letter.
And when you see that, you can like, oh, wow.
Yeah. Ouch.
You know, you feel convicted again or you feel like, comforted again
or whatever.
Well, Paul Lamicela,
welcome back to the Anabaptist Perspectives podcast.
We've done a number of episodes on the Book of Revelation.
Some of them are probably out by now, and we're not quite sure
what the order will be, but this is one where we're going to take a step back
and give us some frameworks to better understand this.
Somewhat confusing and complicated book.
we're going to link to some of the previous ones down below.
If you want more context, but, let's just jump right in.
And give us give us some, give us some context to work with.
I think you have some frameworks that that we're going to start with here. Yeah.
So in the episode that we released a few months back,
on Revelation, we talked, did some big picture like
how to read Revelation in terms of it’s genre.
We talked about apocalyptic literature and stuff like that.
And that's really foundational, I think, to reading Revelation.
But, there's three other pieces,
like not so much theoretical frameworks, but more three parts
of the book of Revelation itself that I think can help to anchor us,
as we read what is a swirling
and sometimes, well, always complicated book.
And so I just want to talk about, what I think is
a good lens to read Revelation through, which is the letters to the churches.
And then, a story right in the smack in the center
that's I think can help us as a good anchor point
to as we're getting confused and go back to that in the middle and say,
this is grounding all the swirling stuff.
And then, and then the way the book ends.
One of the things that makes it tricky Revelation tricky,
is that as, as, many scholars now recognize,
the Book of Revelation isn't a fully sequential.
It's not just a linear or sort of this happened after this happens.
After this happens, scheme it is.
There is a general trajectory to the book.
So obviously the book ends with new heavens and new earth and a
and final final judgment, lake a fire, whatever.
And it has to go that, you know, there's a there's a progression.
But at the same time, it's also recursive.
what I mean is like some of the judgments, some of the scenes
in an earlier part of Revelation are then
kind of repeated in a different way later in the book.
And so for some, some people have, it can be kind of confusing.
You see scenes throughout the book that look like
this is the final culmination of all things, and everyone's
rejoicing in front of God and the lamb, and the kingdom has come.
And then the next chapter is like, and then we start this new,
these new judgments. You're like, oh, I thought the book.
I thought, right, but that's because, there's some there's
there's a cyclical nature to the book as well as a, a trajectory.
It's a style of communicating that's like giving us extra reinforcement
and then coming back around and then like okay
this again from another angle I guess yeah. Basically.
And and you know, we see things like this happen in the Old Testament prophets.
Yeah.
And actually I think a great example of this is the first epistle of John.
Right. Which is a head spinner.
If you try to follow it linearly, I mean, it's not a story, but it's like,
how do you know, that you know, God.
Well, if you love the brothers and sisters
and this is how we know we love the brothers and sisters,
if we believe in Jesus and you're like, okay, all right.
And then how do you know you believe in Jesus?
Well, if you keep if you keep God's commandments and what is his commandment?
That you love one another and you're like,
oh, wow, that’s just like going around in circles.
Right.
But it's meant that way because it really reinforces
the interconnected nature, you know, of those things.
And it's a it's a way of writing.
And the Book of Revelation works, somewhat similarly.
So, for example, you have these three cycles of judgments.
You have the trumpets, the bowls and the seals.
Yeah. What is that?
I'm sure we got a lot of questions, and people are like, what is this?
Yeah. So.
And so it starts out in the early,
in the early
chapters of Revelation with the, the seals.
Right. Because,
there's this scroll representing
God's purposes for the rest of redemptive and judging history.
And, only the lamb can open the seals.
And so he does.
And each, as he tears off each seal to open the scroll,
it represents one sort of burst of judgment in a sense.
Right.
And these judgments are not, are not complete.
Right.
So in, in, some examples,
he opens one of the seals and,
you know, a quarter of the, a quarter of the, the Earth
or the quarter of the sun is, is impacted or something.
It's representing tribulation, suffering trouble, but not ultimate judgment.
It's not the whole the whole sky and sea get blotted out.
Right?
It's it's part of it because it's using a, it's basically
taking a fraction there to tell us this essentially.
And I think these different, seals
are symbolic of, the type of judgment,
disasters or whatever that
are, that characterize this entire age as we wait for the final judgment.
It's like little bursts of God's displeasure or judgment.
Not final.
But but it's this whole time of of judgment and,
tribulation, if you want to say that way from this whole time,
from the destruction of Jerusalem all the way to Jesus’ Second coming,
but in the sixth seal, it kind of gets worse, right?
And the whole the moon becomes blood, the sun gets blotted out
and the sky and the stars all fall to the earth, and it's like, whoa!
Everything seems to be getting destroyed.
And then the seventh seal,
ends really with,
what seems to be the end, right?
Like right before the Seventh Seal, you've got, this song that that,
Yeah, the lamb in the midst of them shall be their shepherd.
but but we're like, we're still in the kind of the beginning of the book as well.
Like, you're in Revelation seven reading this
and it's like, well, there's 20 something chapters.
Hold on.
Oh, yeah. It's very confusing to me. Yeah.
And then the seventh seal opens and the seventh,
the seventh seal is actually the launch of the seven trumpets,
which is the next cycle of similar judgments.
Right.
So he now, the, the lamb opens the seventh seal
and there’s silence and then,
and such, and then the seven angels start blowing their, their seven trumpets.
And these trumpets do a similar thing, right?
The first angel blows his trumpet, and there's hail and fire and blood.
A third of the earth is burned up.
You're back to just fractions of of creation being destroyed and things
like that.
But you do notice that it gets it ramps up a little bit.
It's some of these judgments seem a bit worse than the seals.
Right.
So it's recursive.
And then the trumpets end with,
the seventh angel
blowing his trumpet, and there's a loud voice in heaven.
This is chapter 11 saying, the kingdom of the world
has become the kingdom of our Lord
and his Messiah, and they shall reign forever and ever.
It seems like, yay!
The kingdom is here, right?
But so sorry, what chapter or where are we at?
Chapter 11.
It's the end of the trumpet cycle.
Okay. And just like wait, that sounds familiar.
That sounds like chapter seven when we were talking about the seals.
Yeah, essentially.
exactly.
Though this is more explicit.
The other one was like, yeah.
And so this is and then you have later on.
So you're like, well, there's two cycles kind of talking about the same
the judgment.
It's basically tribulation and distress
prefigurations of that judgment
that Jesus talks about final judgment that Jesus talks about, like Matthew 24.
This will be a time that's characterized by wars,
rumors of wars, earthquakes, famines, all sorts of things.
But then that cycle culminates in a picture of final judgment.
And then there's a new cycle
that goes back and kind of covers the same thing, but, a bit worse.
Right.
And then that final, that final culmination
of the seven trumpet cycle maybe is a bit more,
explicit as well.
And then, so you're like this, this happening twice.
No, it's it's just a depiction of.
So within each cycle, within the seals,
you see judgment, judgment, judgment, culminating in final judgment.
And then in the next, in the trumpets, you see judgment, judgment, judgment,
final judgment.
But if you put those both together, you also have its own progression, right?
You have judgment getting worse and culminating.
So within each within the seals, you have an internal,
trajectory of judgments and then a culmination.
But then if you zoom out and say, wow, if I put the seals and the trumpets
together, I see the same progression, but on a macro scale, right.
Because because the trumpets are worse than the seals, in a sense.
Right.
These are not meant to be taken literally as a,
you know, these seven things are going to happen
and then these seven things are going to happen.
It's a cycle.
It's a cyclical depiction of the same basic realities.
And then you have the seven,
bowls at the end, which are the last
and final sort of installation of that,
that same judgment, judgment, judgment,
final judgment, And where does that end?
So we had chapter seven and then we're in chapter 11.
And then where's this latest, cycle?
I guess you could say, the seven bowls ends, kind of takes us right to,
chapter 16.
Okay.
Which
is, which announces the destruction of Babylon.
And then the next chapters are about the fall of Babylon
and the final, you know, the final judgment, a new creation.
So it kind of takes us out right there.
So what's confusing about these is that it's easy to
to want to line up the trumpets, the bowls and the seals sort of separately
and say, we put these on this, these are going to happen.
And these years followed by these, followed by these,
but instead we should say, no, it's like it's like a spiral
that that goes like this and like this and like this.
Right? Literarily, yeah. Okay.
I'm starting to see that.
That gives a lot more of a, of a, almost like an arc through the book
that you could, you could track, not track with, you know, counting
numbers and dates and figures and things.
It's you're saying it's not intended to be that way necessarily,
but a literary arc, the literary arc but also looming or so.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
That's fascinating though, because because I'm thinking
about there's other points in Scripture where, where that happens to.
Right.
Like where you kind of have
maybe one of the prophets like hit it and then they'll loop back around
and get it again.
From when you were saying at first, John, is that way. Yeah.
Isaiah likes to do this kind of thing.
Yeah. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
I'm guessing if you were aware of this style of presenting material,
it probably shows up in a lot of places and I can see how that could it's
what is this, a way of reinforcing the material
or helping it be more memorable, or is it just a style of presenting things?
I think it's a number of things. It's,
you know, we don't ask all of
those questions about genres that we're familiar with.
Right.
So, like, we could if someone from a,
you know, the 32nd century or whatever
comes back to the 21st century and says,
why do these people what's what's that?
What's up with the way they do sci fi?
Like what?
Sci fi is just strange.
Like, why do they have these creatures do this?
And you're like, well,
that's the way it is.
Like, it, it it
that's, that's the way it wouldn't be sci fi if we didn't have whatever.
I, I don't like sci fi, so I don't, I don't know, but like,
but that's a vivid example.
That's obviously a thing in pop culture.
And it's not like you have to explain it.
It's just you just have known.
People just know this is what it is, right?
And it produces a real a real genuine effect, I think.
So there's many reasons for that.
But the tricky thing is that, and these different judgments,
all connect to the Old Testament.
There's a lot of the plagues of Egypt.
A lot of the
imagery from the plagues of Egypt is, is here in these judgments.
And it would be fun to get into that. But we can't,
I mean, well, we could it's just the episode,
there's so much material here and just a plug in it for that.
I mean, people keep saying, you know, you should do a whole series on this.
So, I don't know, maybe one day this will turn into a whole course
because there's just so much here.
that's one of my goals is to do a whole course on it someday.
We’ll have to see about that, anyways.
Yeah. But continuing. Yeah.
So anyway, that can all be confusing, right?
So you go through and it's like going in spirals. So
these three anchor points.
First the letters to the churches.
These are easy to grasp on to easy to to keep a handle on.
And these really, really help are supposed to serve
as the lens by which we read the book.
Because that's how it was to John's first to Revelations, first readers.
Right.
John sent this book, this book
with these letters, you know, affixed to the front of the book.
You know, it's like each each of them have their own
little sticky note at the beginning of the book of Revelation.
Right.
And so let's say you were the church at Pergamum, right?
And you get this, and you, you pay special attention to your letter, right?
You're like, whoa, this is a letter from Jesus.
And then you
read the rest of the book with your letter in mind.
And when you see stuff, you're going to see lots of stuff
in the rest of the book of Revelation that points back to your letter.
And when you see that, you can like, oh, wow.
Yeah. Ouch.
You know, you feel convicted again or you feel like, comforted again
or whatever, and you're always going, if you keep these letters in mind,
you're always going to front and center.
Sort of keep the main point, the main point, which is be
one of the ones who conquers so that you will participate
in new creation and not be thrown into the Lake of fire type of thing.
Right.
And so I just want to take a couple of minutes and,
and look at a couple of ways that the letters
kind of preview some of the imagery that you see later in the, in the book.
Oh yeah.
That would be really interesting because they tend to be at least in my experience.
Yeah. It's like, oh, this section on the letters. Yeah.
That makes sense. That's easy to understand.
Oh, and then there's all this weird stuff
and then the rest of the book and we'll look at that separately.
That's always been at least my own experience
of hearing people present it more that way.
And that I always just kind of assumed that's kind of how it works.
Exactly. Yeah.
But there's not there's shouldn't be such a sharp, such a sharp line.
But it makes sense because you got to keep in mind
that these, this is a letter that was sent to churches
very much like how other epistles and things were.
I feel like I've completely lost touch of that context actually. Yes.
Like I think like you said, people tend to almost bifurcate Revelation
and it's like, oh,
the letters to the churches, thank God this is something we can preach on,
you know, and then the rest of the book is like, whoa!
Or the other way around.
It's like, wow, we have all our awesome prophecy charts on the rest of Revelation.
And then the letters to the churches
kind of seems less relevant or people come up with strange, speculative,
theories on that too, on the letters.
So for example, the,
the church to, the letter to the church at Ephesus.
Right.
He starts out, I know your works, your toil, your patient endurance, etc..
And he and he does this.
Jesus gives his whole,
all of his warnings and stuff.
And then at the end of the letter, he says, he who has an ear,
let him hear what the spirit says to the churches, to the one who conquers,
I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God.
And that's not just throwaway language, because it's at it's Revelation 22.
Yeah. Where the tree of life shows up again.
That's in the new Jerusalem, the new creation. And,
that is
that's the final, you know, that's the final hope, right?
But it's it's right here. Right.
It's in the letter as well. It's like right at the beginning.
So then you almost have it like this is where we're starting.
And then at the end of the book you see the same thing in there. Yeah.
Connecting back and forth to the church at Ephesus is supposed
to be when it, when it gets to chapter 22 and reads about the tree of life,
they're supposed to say, oh, yeah, Jesus
specifically told us,
reminded us to be someone who overcomes so that we experienced that vision.
Right.
It's very much taking these visions, that vision, and personalizing it and
and applying it right.
Because these visions in Revelation are meant to be practical in a sense,
I don't I'm not a huge fan of that word, but it's it's they're meant to be applied.
They're not meant to be so speculative
I think that that's a piece that keeps coming up as we've done
different, different discussions on Revelation on this podcast.
Again, we'll put all the links down because I'm not quite
sure what order we’ll release these in. But,
is the
sense that Revelation turns into this big
thing on speculation about the future and this and that,
and I felt like I was really starting to lose touch with it.
And it's like, well, I don't know, how is this even relevant?
Okay, sure, maybe this is going to happen. What?
I don't know, but it doesn't really seem to make any difference in my own life.
And you're saying, well, okay, we're we're missing a huge point of this.
It is relevant.
It is it matters for our lives today
it starts with the letters to the seven churches, right.
It's it's an apocalypse.
It's a it's a vision that John received.
And then he figured out how to write it down.
Took a long time. Probably.
Yeah.
So it is a real vision.
I mean, John, I should say John received real visions, I think.
But then he spent a lot of time, I think, thinking about how to record
these visions well.
But it's also a letter right to real churches to encourage them to conquer.
And that imagery from the rest of the book is embedded here.
So we got that in the letter to Smyrna.
Jesus is the one who is the one who died and came to life.
He says the words of the first and last who died and came to life,
which reminds us of, a few chapters later, the lamb who had had been slain.
Right. Jesus says this kind of thing throughout.
And there's also the beast is the parody of that,
who looks like he had a deadly wound that was healed.
Now he's he's the anti messiah.
So you have that right away. You have,
in chapters nine and ten,
I know your tribulation, your poverty, etc.
don't fear what you about to suffer.
The devil is about to throw some of you into prison,
that you may be tested and for ten days you will have tribulation.
Be faithful to death and I will give you the crown of life.
This very much previews language later in Revelation about how the beast is
given, is granted to overcome, to conquer God's people for a time,
there's this vision of the two witnesses that,
that's just like a bizarre piece, by the way.
Yeah, it's very bizarre.
I mean, even for Revelation level bizarre, It's kind of like the most surrealist,
thing, little kind of element.
But, most scholars think that this,
the two witnesses are simply a, a depiction, again,
from a different perspective of the church.
Right?
The God's people who bear witness to him and suffer.
Right.
And, the beast and co have authority to end up killing them.
Right? And then God raises them up.
So you have this when they get when the church at Smyrna gets to chapter
11 and reads this, they say, yes, that's right.
The beast is going to be able to maybe kill us.
But the lamb has the keys of
death and Hades, and he will, you know, he will raise us right.
This imagery, in one of the weirdest visions in the book,
is still supposed to be for the people of Smyrna, right?
It's supposed to remind them, yes.
The beast may put us to death.
We will have tribulation.
But we'll overcome because the lamb will, you know, will be raised.
That. the.
Oh, it makes a lot of sense. Yeah.
I just it's so easy to to read this and it just kind of washes over you
and you don't actually think to to try to put the pieces back together,
so to speak. I guess, like it's like that.
It's almost like a puzzle
without the, without the box, picture to where do all these pieces go?
You know,
or at least that's how it feels.
And I think that is often why people just don't really read the book that much.
Yeah. You know, or maybe they do, and they go way off on bunny trails.
Actually, we were just doing another podcast
earlier today with a different, different guest.
And we're after the cameras are off.
We were talking about
the latest prophecy book that's coming out and just being like, oh, no, they just
they're totally
they're they're wildly speculating down that there's one rabbit trail and they’re
just going waaaay off, and then you're missing so much of this in the text.
Anyway, so not to get off on a bunny trail ourselves
No, I think that’s a good way of talking about it.
The and I, I think, if you will, these letters to the churches
can be in one sense part of that box,
the picture of the puzzle on the box, you know.
Oh, yeah.
Not that it. I never thought of that.
Not that it fills all the pieces in, but at least grounds you.
It's a lens. So I, I like to think of these letters as a lens,
to read the book through.
And if you're start speculating in crazy ways
that would never
are sort of at odds with the purpose of these seven letters.
That might be a sign that maybe I'm
reading Revelation through a slightly wrong lens.
maybe I'm taking this a little too far.
Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
Smyrna’s letter ends with, with Jesus saying,
the one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death.
And that phrase, the second death shows up once more in Revelation.
Yeah, at the end. And speaking of the lake of fire. Right.
That's that's a good way of saying it.
And I think that's the easy bit to miss is the quote
unquote hyperlinks or whatever, you know, the linking, the weaving that's going on.
Because is this not also some of this to do with,
more a Western modern way of engaging with information
where I expect this to be a point 1,2,3,4,5, it's all a nice order.
It's just right here.
And that's not how this book is laid out at all.
Oh, yeah, very much. But but even in the modern West,
in, in good literature
or or visual arts or even or maybe even music,
you have, you have things like this, right?
A good piece of a good piece of literature or poetry
is going to be very elusive and very dense and not linear.
Right. It's going to that's a great point.
I yeah, I hadn't thought of that. So it's not like we've ditched it.
It's just that we've come to the Bible
expecting the Bible to be sort of a bullet point list.
Instead of a poem, right?
Isn't it? Isn't there.
And this is more like a poem.
this might get me in hot water, but I've heard the Bible described.
Oh, this is the instruction manual, you know, and all that stuff.
Not saying it's not, but if you have this idea.
Oh, it's an instruction manual, right?
That's like, oh, instructions like point 1, point 2.
You know, it's very linear.
It's it reads kind of boring, like a textbook or something.
It doesn't seem it feels like that could get it
almost the wrong impression of what we're looking at here.
I mean, it is an instruction manual, yeah. At a very loose level.
Yeah. I know if, Yeah. No, I think that's right.
Way off.
No, no, I think that's absolutely I think that's actually
I think that's a really I think that's insightful
because because I've heard people say that and I think trying to be helpful,
all that stuff. Of course.
But it's like, well, if if I'm coming to this, looking at it as
like a textbook or a list of instructions, maybe that's a way of saying,
yeah, I think you're going to miss a lot of what you're saying is like, oh, well,
it it uses this language here.
And then, hey, later on it refers back to, you know,
and it's linking back and forth and there's weaving
and there's layers involved of, of meaning.
Because in an instruction manual you're not doing any of that.
It's just like surface text, you know?
Anyway, I could be way off.
you're absolutely right.
I think good wisdom literature,
in Proverbs
even sometimes you read things like about the,
the words of the wise and their riddles right in, in sometimes in wisdom
tradition, there is this sense that you to gain wisdom.
Sometimes you have to sit with a riddle for a long time.
That's part of what the wise do.
That's a good point, right?
So even even in instruction, sometimes it's very I mean, like Proverbs
sometimes has very, you know, don't do, don't do stupid things.
Right. Right. Insightful instruction.
But other times,
other times it's, it's riddles are even things that seem paradoxical.
Yeah.
And you're left with that because sometimes the best way to be instructed
is to sit with something that's a little less explicit.
You know Well, but isn't this kind of classic,
teaching style that Jesus
uses with parables where even the his own disciples are coming up like, wait.
Yeah. You know, we're not quite tracking here.
Can you explain this?
And there's something profound about, say, one of the parables of Jesus.
You can read it,
and you can just just sit with that parable for a long time,
and just layers of meaning will start coming through.
And it's not
if it were just an instruction, you'd be like, okay, .123, right?
Okay. Not, you know, it's not like that anyways.
And I don't want to derail this, but I think it feels like that.
That's a piece that’s starting to really click for me
because I have heard that a lot, you know, in my own life.
And it feels almost like that's not wrong, but it feels like you could miss a lot.
Yeah. Of of layers, you know, levels.
Again, I'm thinking like like a parable of Jesus, if you turn that into a
just an instruction manual, I don't know, it
feels like you're going to miss some stuff there, you know.
So anyways, I'm, I feel like I'm going to have to go
and think on this a while, honestly, because that's.
Yeah. Yeah.
So I think that's so again, these, these can serve as the letters to the churches
I think can serve as a lens through which to read the rest of the book.
In, in, you know, insofar as they themselves have embedded within them
links to the later imagery and it's helping you to realize, you know,
all the imagery we see later is meant
to be reminding these churches how to be faithful to Jesus.
And overcome. Right.
And so you see things like the second death or, in Pergamum, you have,
mean Jesus has a few things
against these people because,
they hold the practices of,
the teaching of Balaam, etc.
and if they don't repent, Jesus is going to wage war again
against them with the sword of his mouth, which shows up in chapter 19.
Yeah. Oh, whoa.
Yeah.
Oh, that's fascinating, because that's that famous imagery of
of the rider on the horse. yep.
And the sword out of the mouth. Yeah.
And. Oh, interesting.
And I've never noticed that.
Yeah, but but when you read, about the
this the word of, you know, who comes riding on the horse
with the sword out of his mouth, which is, comes from,
Isaiah, I think,
again, the people from Pergamum are supposed to say,
if we don't repent, that sword is going to be wielded against us, right?
Again, it's not a when is that going to happen?
It's that's we're going to be on the wrong side of that sword
if we don't repent of our sexual immorality.
That's what Jesus is telling them.
And that's how they're supposed to encounter that image of the rider
on the horse.
Later, because they're going to be reading through the rest of this book
and be like, oh, that kind of steps on some toes, you know, or like, oh,
pay extra attention here.
From his mouth comes a sharp sword.
So they're just be reading right from his mouth comes a sharp sword, which,
with which to strike down the nations.
And he will rule them with a rod of iron and they're like, oops.
But Jesus mentioned that in our letter, right.
We better avoid that. Right.
So it's that kind of thing, then it that is powerful.
That's really.
at the end of their letter of that letter.
I will give him a white stone with a new name written on the stone
that no one knows except the one who receives it.
Jesus is later described in Revelation as having, his own
name written that no one knows his own secret name.
Yeah.
Which represents probably, so if you if you have your own secret name,
he has his own secret name, and you're sort of led into this,
it represents perhaps
authority, special authority, but also maybe special, special knowledge.
Special relationship or something. Right.
But again, it's tied together.
When you read about Jesus secret name, you're supposed remember.
Oh, and he's going to give us one, too, if we belong to him.
Right.
Let's stay with him kind of thing. Right?
Yeah, yeah.
Just a couple more examples here, and then I’ll stop.
So in Thyatira,
there is this woman that Jesus calls Jezebel.
Right?
And she's seducing people to, of the church to practice
sexual immorality and to eat food offered to idols.
I gave her time to repent, but she refused to repent.
So I'm going to throw her onto a sickbed.
And those who commit adultery with her I will throw into great tribulation
until they repent,
And then we get to.
So this is talking about
some probably specific false teaching that was in that church,
that was teaching the people to go into licentiousness or whatever.
And Jesus describes this as using this very kind of Old Testament
adultery imagery that then is judged by the adulteress and her lovers,
like all being thrown onto this bed together and facing lots of tribulation.
But in the later chapters on the fall of Babylon,
Babylon is the harlot, and Babylon and her.
Lovers.
Basically the nations, experience great tribulation, right?
They're essentially thrown into this,
sick bed, if you will, right, of torment and stuff.
And so when you read the chapter 18 on the Fall of Babylon,
you just be like, oh, man, this is like a this scene about how this the harlot
Babylon is being is being thrown into torment with all the people who,
drank the
wine of the passion for sexual immorality with her.
You know, that sounds a little too eerily like what Jesus warned our church
about the false teaching, what's going to what he's going to do to us
in the false teaching.
But we're,
we're sort of the licentiousness.
We're going into Whoa, it's it's like, almost like a way of reinforcing
things or or stuff that's here, but then a different, a different angle,
almost like, to make it really memorable or to stick it, I guess.
And I just, I think that the whole way like all of these imagery, all of this
imagery in the rest of Revelation is meant to hit us like that.
Right?
Just like these specific embedded embedded ones.
And that's again where we can miss the, the warnings like, almost or like,
like you're saying is, it is kind of supposed to almost like
smack you, metaphorically speaking, like, hey, pay attention to this.
This is really important, right?
Don't don't go down that street.
But instead, if we're speculating, calculating years and dates and numbers
and figures and all that stuff and trying to put it out there
in the future somewhere, you may you may really miss that warning actually.
Yeah.
And you're, you may be missing the way these letters
to the churches in a sense, are the author.
And Jesus first application and interpretation of the rest of Revelation.
Right.
Oh, that's a that's a thought.
And the, the you know, the way that Jesus is applying Revelation
is pulling some of the imagery and pointing it out
to specific churches and saying, make sure you catch this, right?
Whoa, what a thought.
Yeah, okay, I see that, though.
So there's plenty more like this.
And we're not going to there's no time to go through them all.
There's only one more I want to mention.
And it's this very curious phrase where where Jesus says, in the,
the letter to Thyatira at the end,
the one who conquers, I will give him authority over the nations.
He will rule them with a rod of iron.
This is Psalm two, which pops up throughout Revelation.
Jesus has this authority of the Messiah,
but he's going to share it with his people.
And then he says, and I will give him the morning star.
Okay?
So just like, okay, thanks.
You know, like, oh that's great. Oh, whatever.
I'm confused. Yeah, yeah.
But the Morning Star,
is is a, is is very much this.
This language of the morning star is tied to Balaam’s oracle
of the scepter and the star that will,
that will come from Judah, which is, which becomes in, in the Bible, in Jewish
tradition, a very important symbol of the coming Messiah.
Right.
And this, this
phrase, this word, this wording shows up
one more time in Revelation, and it's like it's at the very, very end.
It's like the last,
the last words of Jesus in the book,
in chapter 22,
I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches.
I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star,
And so, like in this, in this weird
way, Jesus seems to be saying that, yeah, I will give you the authority
that I receive from the father, and I will give you myself.
Like, if you overcome, you will get the morning star.
And at the end of the book he says, that's me.
Whoa! Like what?
What is that? What does that mean? Like,
I don't know.
I think that's beautiful. Yeah.
That's wild.
I, I've not seen that before. No.
The morning star. Yeah,
That's all the way, Revelation 22.
Right. Like all the way at the very end.
imagine you're thinking about this. You're the letter.
You're in the church of Thyatira.
You're thinking you're given the morning star
and you're like, I know that oracle about the scepter.
And the star will come out of Judah, and that's that's Jesus.
Yeah.
And then you're just waiting.
You're listening
to the rest of the book being read, because that's how you receive Revelation.
The book of any book of the Bible.
Is somebody reading it to you don't have your own copy and your quiet time.
Right?
And then you come to the very last bit and Jesus says, I'm the morning star. And.
Yeah,
yeah. That's powerful.
That is powerful.
you say, that's why we have to overcome.
Yeah, yeah.
So, so these letters are
I think the a lens like, okay, we're talking about
there's all these spirals, there's these, these bowls and these trumpets
and these seals that go cyclical but also have a trajectory to the end.
You're like, wow. You know, that's interesting.
That's intriguing. But it's also complicated.
One of the anchor points to keep us grounded as we try to read
the rest of the book is the seven letters,
because they help us to say, how are we supposed to apply this imagery?
What is the most important kind of thing?
What matters?
And I think, you know, this is the lens, you know, that makes sense.
Yeah. That
this feels like such a,
immediately actionable way of reading Revelation
as in you don't need to do all kinds of fancy research and stuff.
You can just pick up Revelation and, and start looking
through that lens and immediately start seeing this stuff.
And, and there's oh wow.
Like you're talking again.
Start to peel back the layers. Yeah.
And also try to, to remove a lot of the extrabiblical layers
that have been piled on top
from our culture and worldview and our biases and all of these things.
It's just gotten kind of snowed under, you know, by that.
Wow. So that that was the lens.
And then there's another piece you want to. Yeah.
I don't want to. Yeah. I don't want to spend.
So the other two pieces, the one is the ending, the new
the vision of new creation, chapters 21 and 22 that puts the whole Bible together.
It brings in imagery of temple and Eden and marriage,
and it's like, weaves it all together to the end of the story.
And we have a
we we are doing a whole nother episode on specifically that.
Right.
But that's if the letters to the churches are a lens,
then the ending kind of grounds you at the end of the book, right, to say,
okay, the story may do all these strange movements,
but we end here and that's that's a grounding place.
There's one more in the middle, Revelation chapter 12.
And we could do a whole episode on this,
but it's the story of the woman and the dragon.
Oh, yeah.
Well, that's this is a again I mean, again, Revelation is a little bit wild.
This is also bizarre.
Or I say that lovingly, but, like, it's just, you know, it's just like.
Whoa.
It's hard to get our heads around all of this.
Yeah.
But what's happening here is, in a sense, right
smack in the middle of the of the book.
It's kind of like a pause and we say, hey, this chapter
kind of gives you a little separate perspective
on this whole era of redemptive history, from Jesus first coming to his second.
And that gives you another little lens, a, to help you understand
what's happening in the previous chapters and in those succeeding,
succeeding chapters.
So it's not supposed
to be like, Then this is again, it's not sequential.
This is like it's kind of the center point.
You're like, okay, I need to zoom out again and see, get a,
get a full perspective on this and so we have right in the middle,
just as you're starting to get really confused, this story
to say, okay, just remember this is sort of the big
the big meta story I'm trying to tell, John is trying to tell you.
And it's the story of this woman, she has stars over her head.
She's apparently a very she's she's a rule.
She's ruling. She's pregnant.
She's crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth.
And then there's a dragon, and he stands before the woman so that,
when she bears her child, he might devour it.
And she gives birth to a male child who is to rule all the nations
with a rod of iron. This is Psalm two again.
And her child is caught up to God into his throne.
Who is this woman?
Because,
it's it's a little confusing.
Then she,
the woman flees into the wilderness where she is kept,
preserved by God for this whole time, this whole era of tribulation.
Until Jesus returns, symbolizing in the 1260 days.
And then the camera zooms to, goes back to her, goes to heaven, and says,
and from heaven's perspective, there was Michael
and the angels fighting against the dragon.
The dragon gets kicked out.
Why is Dragon get kicked out?
Well, because of what had just happened with
this child that was born to the woman.
Jesus. Right.
So he gets kicked out.
And the dragon sees that he'd been.
When the dragon saw that
he'd been thrown to the earth, he pursued the woman
that had given birth to the male child.
So he realizes his time is short because,
the salvation
and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Messiah has come.
The accuser of the brothers has been thrown down.
He's been conquered by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony.
Jesus has triumphed through his death and resurrection.
So the devil has been, the dragon is kicked down to earth,
but he's not destroyed yet.
He realizes his time is short.
And so what does he do?
He pursues the woman, but the woman is is,
is kept preserved by God for this whole length, duration of time.
That the devil that the dragon has left.
And then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war
on the rest of her offspring, on
those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
And he stood on the sand of the sea, you know, like why?
Well, the next verse
says, I saw a beast rising out of the sea with ten horns and seven heads.
So what is the what is this dragon do?
He realizes bummer.
The the the son.
Jesus the Messiah has been born, has died, has risen from the dead.
I'm kicked out of my.
The accuser of the brethren has been thrown out.
The authority of Jesus has, you know has has come I my time is short.
What am I going to do with that?
I'm going to spend the rest of my short time
in making war on the rest of the offspring of the woman,
which John says is those who keep the commands of God,
and the next thing he does is go in and create this beast.
The beast. Right.
That is what that's his, that's his plan
for the rest of the time, he has left is to,
is to to generate these beasts out of the sea and the land
that are going to persecute, the seed of the woman.
The rest of of the disciples of Jesus.
So it's a very it's very it's a lot, but it's very simple.
When you when it comes down to it, it's just I mean, it's saying,
Jesus came into the world.
He died and rose again.
He’s seated at the right hand of of God.
All authority is given to him.
The accuser of the brethren is is booted, but he's not destroyed yet.
And he's very angry, and he's going to spend all the rest of his time,
on, on, on, trying to
make trying to make war on all the rest of Jesus’ people.
Wow. And that sets up for the whole kind
of the rest of Revelation with all these beasts and all this stuff.
So when we read about all these crazy beasts, we're supposed to go back to this
chapter 12 and say, what this means is the Dragon devil is very mad,
and he's going
to spend because he knows Jesus has.
Jesus is sitting at the throne on the throne of God.
And, he's very angry.
And so he's going to spend the rest of his days,
which he knows are numbered, trying to make war on us.
It's.
And that's the whole that's again in the middle of the book, this lens that
we're supposed to read, all these beasts and all this crazy stuff through.
Okay, so.
So we had what you were saying, the lens at the beginning,
which is the letters to the seven churches.
And then you're calling this an anchor point. An anchor point.
So like, this is a spot in the middle to kind of peg some things to essentially.
Yeah.
Do you want to tear into that a bit of like how how exactly are you
or are we thinking of this as an as an anchor?
Yeah.
Well, because, so before this you have two cycles of, of judgments.
You got the, the trumpets and the seals and you say, okay, good.
So we've got these, these judgments and that seem to culminate in
the kingdom coming.
And then the another cycle happens.
And then after chapter 12, we've got these beasts that arise and,
these two beasts and then we've got the seven bowls
of God's wrath and like, wow, okay, I need a little help.
And then we have the prostitute and the Fall of Babylon
and all this stuff, and right in the middle, you're saying, okay,
this whole progression, this cyclical progression
that we see the rest of Revelation kind of spinning out,
just remember pause.
You know, not a commercial break, but pause and and remember, just
do you remember this story from Genesis three, this
not story, this one little verse in Genesis three, when, Adam and Eve sin
and God says that the seed of the woman, will, will
there will be enmity between, the serpent and the woman, your seed and her seed
and the seed of the woman will crush the head of the serpent.
And such.
Remember that. Well,
let's let's let's picture
let's remember that this whole saga of beasts and harlots
and all this stuff that we're telling is, a fleshing out of Genesis 3:15.
This woman is represents,
that prophecy, right?
The seed of the woman.
That's why there's this woman who's giving birth to a a male child.
And the dragon is called the ancient serpent,
who is called the devil and Satan because it's it's taking you back to
the serpent, right?
And saying all this, all this stuff about beasts and overcoming
and destroying Christians, and then eventually they'll conquer.
That's just a fleshing out of,
what the what the serpent is trying to do now.
After the seed of the
woman has dealt him sort of the fatal blow to the head.
Right.
But his his time is his.
He still has some time to wreak havoc.
And so just remember that little verse, Genesis 3:15.
The seed of the woman has come has crushed the head of the serpent,
but he still in the throes of he's not quite he still has some time.
And so all the rest of these things about beasts and whatever that we're,
that John's going to be talking about, it's an unpacking of that simple,
that simple idea, that simple, big meta story, that the woman.
Right.
The people of God, whatever Jesus came from,
Jesus was born into into the people of Israel.
Right?
He has conquered and,
he sits on the throne in heaven.
The devil has been thrown down in a very angry state,
and the rest of the rest of
his whole time, that's short.
His what's on his mind is to make war on the rest of her offspring.
It's not talking about one specific certain number of years in the future.
It's talking about all the years that the dragon has left
from the time he's booted out of heaven, Jesus ascension or whatever.
I mean, symbolically, right,
to Jesus return and his getting thrown into the lake of fire
that characterizes the whole, you know, this this is what the dragon is up to
for this whole time period between Jesus first coming and his second coming.
That's what’s, I think, really key because when we read the rest of it,
then we're not saying, when is this going to happen?
Is this like a certain three and a half years or seven years in the future?
We say, no.
Genesis two, I mean, Revelation 12 told us,
this is what the dragon is up to for this whole time
since he got booted out of heaven. Right?
Symbolically, of course.
And, you know, since since Jesus,
since all power, all authority has been given to Jesus, right?
He, you know, his whole this whole entire
era is the is this 1,260 days or times, times in a
and a half a time of the devil, the dragon being very mad. So.
So again, it takes us away from saying,
okay, which when is this specific thing going to happen?
When is this specific thing going to happen?
Is this something far in the future to saying, no, no, it's
an Revelation 12 is an anchor point, because it reminds us
this story of,
the seed of the woman overcoming the dragon
and then the dragon getting very angry for the rest of his days.
That's that is the story of where we're living right now
and where we will be living until Jesus
returns to cast the dragon into the lake of fire.
And that really fits with this whole theme of to him who overcomes, right,
which is like the one of the big threads going through all of this.
Yeah.
Which which would kind of, you would kind of lose that
if you were saying, oh,
this is something that's going to happen at some point in the future.
You kind of you kind of lose some some of the story there, don’t you?
Yeah, exactly.
And I just think Revelation
12 doesn't allow you to go there because it kind of makes it helps.
It grounds us by making it pretty explicit that all this stuff about beasts
is not just something in the future, but it's the whole program of the dragon.
While he's very angry that Jesus rose from the dead, right?
So that's so interesting, though, because I know, like a lot of people
are going to disagree with that because they're going to push this into
an era out there somewhere, you know?
Yeah, I think it's hard to do that when you
when you read Revelation 12 and say, it seems to be trying to set up
for all the stuff that the dragon is doing.
Yeah, yeah, that that makes a lot of sense.
Yeah, so we kind of had
we got the lens that we started with and that anchor point in the middle.
Right with, with the, with the beast and, and the dragon
and then and of course, the whole ending thing, which
there's a, there's a whole package there at the ending, you know, with the,
the temple and Eden themes.
And again, got a whole episode on that
that either has come out or is going to come out soon.
we just like Revelation.
Our timing can be a little cyclical or whatever.
Yeah.
We're still we don't know doesn't matter.
But that that's that again is kind of like we're tracing some arcs through,
through the book
that that hopefully will be some frameworks that will be helpful for people
as they dig into this.
I think that's kind of the hope
with with these episodes that we've been doing on Revelation.
For one thing, a lot of people ask that we do them,
but the other is that people actually will go to this book and read it again,
and hopefully with, with some, some helpful frameworks, and they can pull
some pieces out and say, oh, wow, that I should pay attention to that.
Yeah. You know, that matters. That's important.
Is there anything else you want to add to this as as we,
bringing the package to a close.
I don’t think so.
So these are just three, well two, the lens read the read
the imagery of the book through the lens of the seven letters to the churches,
an anchor point in the middle.
Remember that all the stuff about the drag, the beasts and whatnot,
is not just something to speculate about the future, but it's at Revelation
12, the story of the seed of the woman and, you know, conquering the serpent.
It's telling us all of this stuff about beasts and false prophets and stuff.
This is all what the dragon is doing in this whole entire time, that he's
knows he's been conquered, but hasn't yet been thrown into the lake of fire.
Yeah.
So that that just grounds us in the middle.
And then in our other episode, the thing that helps us at the end of the book
is, is the final way that, the last vision of the New Jerusalem, new creation,
weaves ties together the whole story of the Bible.
Yeah.
Wow. That's powerful.
This is, this is a lot.
This is what I'm really hoping this will.
Yeah.
Encourage people to to engage with this text.
Again,
I just want to thank you for all the time you put into developing this material.
I'm sure you know, it's a decent amount of work.
And, I appreciate you coming on and sharing today.
Thanks!
Thanks for listening to this episode with Paul Lamicela on
the lens anchor and ending of the Book of Revelation.
We've done several other episodes with Paul on this topic
about the Book of Revelation,
and you can find those linked in the description down below.
Of course, all our content is available on our website
at anabaptistperspectives.org, and we also have a monthly
email newsletter you can sign up for on the website.
Thanks again, and we'll see you in the next episode.