1 00:00:00,458 --> 00:00:03,545 And so let's say you were the church at Pergamum, right? 2 00:00:04,045 --> 00:00:09,175 And you get this, and you, you pay special attention to your letter, right? 3 00:00:09,175 --> 00:00:11,970 You're like, whoa, this is a letter from Jesus. 4 00:00:12,679 --> 00:00:13,471 And then you 5 00:00:13,471 --> 00:00:16,641 read the rest of the book with your letter in mind. 6 00:00:17,517 --> 00:00:20,186 And when you see stuff, you're going to see lots of stuff 7 00:00:20,186 --> 00:00:23,940 in the rest of the book of Revelation that points back to your letter. 8 00:00:24,649 --> 00:00:26,609 And when you see that, you can like, oh, wow. 9 00:00:26,609 --> 00:00:28,611 Yeah. Ouch. 10 00:00:28,611 --> 00:00:32,198 You know, you feel convicted again or you feel like, comforted again 11 00:00:32,198 --> 00:00:32,907 or whatever. 12 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:40,206 Well, Paul Lamicela, 13 00:00:40,206 --> 00:00:43,543 welcome back to the Anabaptist Perspectives podcast. 14 00:00:44,085 --> 00:00:47,338 We've done a number of episodes on the Book of Revelation. 15 00:00:47,881 --> 00:00:49,883 Some of them are probably out by now, and we're not quite sure 16 00:00:49,883 --> 00:00:54,596 what the order will be, but this is one where we're going to take a step back 17 00:00:54,596 --> 00:00:58,141 and give us some frameworks to better understand this. 18 00:00:59,350 --> 00:01:01,352 Somewhat confusing and complicated book. 19 00:01:01,352 --> 00:01:03,855 we're going to link to some of the previous ones down below. 20 00:01:03,855 --> 00:01:07,525 If you want more context, but, let's just jump right in. 21 00:01:08,610 --> 00:01:11,112 And give us give us some, give us some context to work with. 22 00:01:11,112 --> 00:01:13,865 I think you have some frameworks that that we're going to start with here. Yeah. 23 00:01:13,865 --> 00:01:16,993 So in the episode that we released a few months back, 24 00:01:17,869 --> 00:01:20,747 on Revelation, we talked, did some big picture like 25 00:01:20,747 --> 00:01:22,874 how to read Revelation in terms of it’s genre. 26 00:01:22,874 --> 00:01:25,877 We talked about apocalyptic literature and stuff like that. 27 00:01:26,211 --> 00:01:29,089 And that's really foundational, I think, to reading Revelation. 28 00:01:29,089 --> 00:01:32,342 But, there's three other pieces, 29 00:01:32,592 --> 00:01:36,846 like not so much theoretical frameworks, but more three parts 30 00:01:36,846 --> 00:01:39,849 of the book of Revelation itself that I think can help to anchor us, 31 00:01:41,017 --> 00:01:43,061 as we read what is a swirling 32 00:01:43,061 --> 00:01:46,564 and sometimes, well, always complicated book. 33 00:01:48,066 --> 00:01:51,528 And so I just want to talk about, what I think is 34 00:01:51,653 --> 00:01:55,532 a good lens to read Revelation through, which is the letters to the churches. 35 00:01:55,865 --> 00:01:58,743 And then, a story right in the smack in the center 36 00:01:58,743 --> 00:02:01,538 that's I think can help us as a good anchor point 37 00:02:01,538 --> 00:02:04,707 to as we're getting confused and go back to that in the middle and say, 38 00:02:04,874 --> 00:02:07,502 this is grounding all the swirling stuff. 39 00:02:07,502 --> 00:02:10,296 And then, and then the way the book ends. 40 00:02:10,296 --> 00:02:13,299 One of the things that makes it tricky Revelation tricky, 41 00:02:13,716 --> 00:02:17,220 is that as, as, many scholars now recognize, 42 00:02:17,804 --> 00:02:20,765 the Book of Revelation isn't a fully sequential. 43 00:02:20,765 --> 00:02:24,769 It's not just a linear or sort of this happened after this happens. 44 00:02:24,769 --> 00:02:27,772 After this happens, scheme it is. 45 00:02:27,814 --> 00:02:30,066 There is a general trajectory to the book. 46 00:02:31,526 --> 00:02:34,779 So obviously the book ends with new heavens and new earth and a 47 00:02:35,029 --> 00:02:38,032 and final final judgment, lake a fire, whatever. 48 00:02:38,032 --> 00:02:40,994 And it has to go that, you know, there's a there's a progression. 49 00:02:40,994 --> 00:02:43,955 But at the same time, it's also recursive. 50 00:02:44,372 --> 00:02:48,209 what I mean is like some of the judgments, some of the scenes 51 00:02:48,626 --> 00:02:51,421 in an earlier part of Revelation are then 52 00:02:51,421 --> 00:02:54,424 kind of repeated in a different way later in the book. 53 00:02:54,966 --> 00:02:58,928 And so for some, some people have, it can be kind of confusing. 54 00:02:58,928 --> 00:03:02,348 You see scenes throughout the book that look like 55 00:03:02,348 --> 00:03:05,768 this is the final culmination of all things, and everyone's 56 00:03:05,768 --> 00:03:09,230 rejoicing in front of God and the lamb, and the kingdom has come. 57 00:03:09,397 --> 00:03:12,066 And then the next chapter is like, and then we start this new, 58 00:03:12,066 --> 00:03:13,902 these new judgments. You're like, oh, I thought the book. 59 00:03:13,902 --> 00:03:17,989 I thought, right, but that's because, there's some there's 60 00:03:17,989 --> 00:03:21,910 there's a cyclical nature to the book as well as a, a trajectory. 61 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:27,916 It's a style of communicating that's like giving us extra reinforcement 62 00:03:27,916 --> 00:03:29,709 and then coming back around and then like okay 63 00:03:29,709 --> 00:03:32,420 this again from another angle I guess yeah. Basically. 64 00:03:32,420 --> 00:03:36,007 And and you know, we see things like this happen in the Old Testament prophets. 65 00:03:36,132 --> 00:03:37,008 Yeah. 66 00:03:37,008 --> 00:03:40,970 And actually I think a great example of this is the first epistle of John. 67 00:03:41,429 --> 00:03:43,139 Right. Which is a head spinner. 68 00:03:43,139 --> 00:03:46,476 If you try to follow it linearly, I mean, it's not a story, but it's like, 69 00:03:46,476 --> 00:03:49,479 how do you know, that you know, God. 70 00:03:49,479 --> 00:03:51,439 Well, if you love the brothers and sisters 71 00:03:51,439 --> 00:03:54,025 and this is how we know we love the brothers and sisters, 72 00:03:54,025 --> 00:03:57,028 if we believe in Jesus and you're like, okay, all right. 73 00:03:57,028 --> 00:03:58,446 And then how do you know you believe in Jesus? 74 00:03:58,446 --> 00:04:01,908 Well, if you keep if you keep God's commandments and what is his commandment? 75 00:04:01,908 --> 00:04:03,534 That you love one another and you're like, 76 00:04:03,534 --> 00:04:05,870 oh, wow, that’s just like going around in circles. 77 00:04:05,870 --> 00:04:06,663 Right. 78 00:04:06,663 --> 00:04:09,999 But it's meant that way because it really reinforces 79 00:04:09,999 --> 00:04:12,752 the interconnected nature, you know, of those things. 80 00:04:12,752 --> 00:04:14,254 And it's a it's a way of writing. 81 00:04:14,254 --> 00:04:16,714 And the Book of Revelation works, somewhat similarly. 82 00:04:16,714 --> 00:04:20,635 So, for example, you have these three cycles of judgments. 83 00:04:21,010 --> 00:04:24,222 You have the trumpets, the bowls and the seals. 84 00:04:24,389 --> 00:04:26,766 Yeah. What is that? 85 00:04:26,766 --> 00:04:30,103 I'm sure we got a lot of questions, and people are like, what is this? 86 00:04:30,353 --> 00:04:31,104 Yeah. So. 87 00:04:31,104 --> 00:04:34,274 And so it starts out in the early, 88 00:04:36,693 --> 00:04:38,194 in the early 89 00:04:38,194 --> 00:04:42,573 chapters of Revelation with the, the seals. 90 00:04:42,573 --> 00:04:44,450 Right. Because, 91 00:04:44,450 --> 00:04:47,453 there's this scroll representing 92 00:04:48,037 --> 00:04:52,709 God's purposes for the rest of redemptive and judging history. 93 00:04:53,167 --> 00:04:55,962 And, only the lamb can open the seals. 94 00:04:55,962 --> 00:04:57,797 And so he does. 95 00:04:57,797 --> 00:05:01,092 And each, as he tears off each seal to open the scroll, 96 00:05:02,135 --> 00:05:05,763 it represents one sort of burst of judgment in a sense. 97 00:05:05,763 --> 00:05:06,514 Right. 98 00:05:06,514 --> 00:05:09,976 And these judgments are not, are not complete. 99 00:05:10,143 --> 00:05:10,476 Right. 100 00:05:10,476 --> 00:05:13,813 So in, in, some examples, 101 00:05:14,897 --> 00:05:17,275 he opens one of the seals and, 102 00:05:17,275 --> 00:05:20,778 you know, a quarter of the, a quarter of the, the Earth 103 00:05:20,778 --> 00:05:23,072 or the quarter of the sun is, is impacted or something. 104 00:05:23,072 --> 00:05:27,869 It's representing tribulation, suffering trouble, but not ultimate judgment. 105 00:05:27,869 --> 00:05:31,789 It's not the whole the whole sky and sea get blotted out. 106 00:05:31,789 --> 00:05:32,290 Right? 107 00:05:32,290 --> 00:05:34,834 It's it's part of it because it's using a, it's basically 108 00:05:34,834 --> 00:05:37,837 taking a fraction there to tell us this essentially. 109 00:05:37,879 --> 00:05:41,049 And I think these different, seals 110 00:05:41,591 --> 00:05:46,346 are symbolic of, the type of judgment, 111 00:05:47,555 --> 00:05:49,474 disasters or whatever that 112 00:05:49,474 --> 00:05:54,645 are, that characterize this entire age as we wait for the final judgment. 113 00:05:54,645 --> 00:05:58,358 It's like little bursts of God's displeasure or judgment. 114 00:05:59,067 --> 00:06:01,361 Not final. 115 00:06:01,361 --> 00:06:04,322 But but it's this whole time of of judgment and, 116 00:06:04,322 --> 00:06:07,658 tribulation, if you want to say that way from this whole time, 117 00:06:07,658 --> 00:06:11,079 from the destruction of Jerusalem all the way to Jesus’ Second coming, 118 00:06:12,288 --> 00:06:16,250 but in the sixth seal, it kind of gets worse, right? 119 00:06:16,250 --> 00:06:20,463 And the whole the moon becomes blood, the sun gets blotted out 120 00:06:20,755 --> 00:06:24,842 and the sky and the stars all fall to the earth, and it's like, whoa! 121 00:06:24,842 --> 00:06:26,803 Everything seems to be getting destroyed. 122 00:06:26,803 --> 00:06:29,806 And then the seventh seal, 123 00:06:29,972 --> 00:06:32,934 ends really with, 124 00:06:32,934 --> 00:06:35,770 what seems to be the end, right? 125 00:06:35,770 --> 00:06:40,566 Like right before the Seventh Seal, you've got, this song that that, 126 00:06:41,734 --> 00:06:44,529 Yeah, the lamb in the midst of them shall be their shepherd. 127 00:06:44,529 --> 00:06:48,282 but but we're like, we're still in the kind of the beginning of the book as well. 128 00:06:48,282 --> 00:06:49,909 Like, you're in Revelation seven reading this 129 00:06:49,909 --> 00:06:51,911 and it's like, well, there's 20 something chapters. 130 00:06:51,911 --> 00:06:53,621 Hold on. 131 00:06:53,621 --> 00:06:55,123 Oh, yeah. It's very confusing to me. Yeah. 132 00:06:55,123 --> 00:06:57,083 And then the seventh seal opens and the seventh, 133 00:06:57,083 --> 00:07:00,253 the seventh seal is actually the launch of the seven trumpets, 134 00:07:00,670 --> 00:07:04,507 which is the next cycle of similar judgments. 135 00:07:04,966 --> 00:07:05,174 Right. 136 00:07:05,174 --> 00:07:09,095 So he now, the, the lamb opens the seventh seal 137 00:07:09,429 --> 00:07:12,432 and there’s silence and then, 138 00:07:12,849 --> 00:07:17,353 and such, and then the seven angels start blowing their, their seven trumpets. 139 00:07:17,645 --> 00:07:20,231 And these trumpets do a similar thing, right? 140 00:07:20,231 --> 00:07:23,901 The first angel blows his trumpet, and there's hail and fire and blood. 141 00:07:23,901 --> 00:07:25,319 A third of the earth is burned up. 142 00:07:25,319 --> 00:07:30,158 You're back to just fractions of of creation being destroyed and things 143 00:07:30,158 --> 00:07:31,325 like that. 144 00:07:31,325 --> 00:07:36,247 But you do notice that it gets it ramps up a little bit. 145 00:07:36,247 --> 00:07:39,250 It's some of these judgments seem a bit worse than the seals. 146 00:07:39,459 --> 00:07:40,710 Right. 147 00:07:40,710 --> 00:07:42,336 So it's recursive. 148 00:07:42,336 --> 00:07:44,922 And then the trumpets end with, 149 00:07:46,048 --> 00:07:46,841 the seventh angel 150 00:07:46,841 --> 00:07:50,178 blowing his trumpet, and there's a loud voice in heaven. 151 00:07:50,178 --> 00:07:52,221 This is chapter 11 saying, the kingdom of the world 152 00:07:52,221 --> 00:07:53,598 has become the kingdom of our Lord 153 00:07:53,598 --> 00:07:56,601 and his Messiah, and they shall reign forever and ever. 154 00:07:57,518 --> 00:07:58,478 It seems like, yay! 155 00:07:58,478 --> 00:08:01,314 The kingdom is here, right? 156 00:08:01,314 --> 00:08:04,108 But so sorry, what chapter or where are we at? 157 00:08:04,108 --> 00:08:06,819 Chapter 11. 158 00:08:06,819 --> 00:08:08,446 It's the end of the trumpet cycle. 159 00:08:08,446 --> 00:08:10,281 Okay. And just like wait, that sounds familiar. 160 00:08:10,281 --> 00:08:12,825 That sounds like chapter seven when we were talking about the seals. 161 00:08:12,825 --> 00:08:13,618 Yeah, essentially. 162 00:08:13,618 --> 00:08:14,118 exactly. 163 00:08:14,118 --> 00:08:15,369 Though this is more explicit. 164 00:08:15,369 --> 00:08:18,206 The other one was like, yeah. 165 00:08:18,206 --> 00:08:21,292 And so this is and then you have later on. 166 00:08:21,626 --> 00:08:26,130 So you're like, well, there's two cycles kind of talking about the same 167 00:08:26,506 --> 00:08:27,423 the judgment. 168 00:08:27,423 --> 00:08:29,800 It's basically tribulation and distress 169 00:08:30,927 --> 00:08:32,595 prefigurations of that judgment 170 00:08:32,595 --> 00:08:36,140 that Jesus talks about final judgment that Jesus talks about, like Matthew 24. 171 00:08:36,432 --> 00:08:38,559 This will be a time that's characterized by wars, 172 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:41,562 rumors of wars, earthquakes, famines, all sorts of things. 173 00:08:41,812 --> 00:08:46,025 But then that cycle culminates in a picture of final judgment. 174 00:08:46,359 --> 00:08:47,610 And then there's a new cycle 175 00:08:47,610 --> 00:08:51,364 that goes back and kind of covers the same thing, but, a bit worse. 176 00:08:51,948 --> 00:08:52,448 Right. 177 00:08:52,448 --> 00:08:56,118 And then that final, that final culmination 178 00:08:56,786 --> 00:08:59,789 of the seven trumpet cycle maybe is a bit more, 179 00:09:00,957 --> 00:09:02,625 explicit as well. 180 00:09:02,625 --> 00:09:06,420 And then, so you're like this, this happening twice. 181 00:09:06,420 --> 00:09:09,840 No, it's it's just a depiction of. 182 00:09:10,132 --> 00:09:13,135 So within each cycle, within the seals, 183 00:09:13,219 --> 00:09:16,305 you see judgment, judgment, judgment, culminating in final judgment. 184 00:09:16,681 --> 00:09:20,059 And then in the next, in the trumpets, you see judgment, judgment, judgment, 185 00:09:20,059 --> 00:09:20,851 final judgment. 186 00:09:21,852 --> 00:09:25,273 But if you put those both together, you also have its own progression, right? 187 00:09:25,273 --> 00:09:29,902 You have judgment getting worse and culminating. 188 00:09:29,902 --> 00:09:34,156 So within each within the seals, you have an internal, 189 00:09:35,157 --> 00:09:37,827 trajectory of judgments and then a culmination. 190 00:09:37,827 --> 00:09:40,871 But then if you zoom out and say, wow, if I put the seals and the trumpets 191 00:09:40,871 --> 00:09:45,042 together, I see the same progression, but on a macro scale, right. 192 00:09:45,209 --> 00:09:48,671 Because because the trumpets are worse than the seals, in a sense. 193 00:09:48,671 --> 00:09:49,297 Right. 194 00:09:49,297 --> 00:09:52,300 These are not meant to be taken literally as a, 195 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:54,760 you know, these seven things are going to happen 196 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:56,679 and then these seven things are going to happen. 197 00:09:56,679 --> 00:09:57,763 It's a cycle. 198 00:09:57,763 --> 00:10:00,766 It's a cyclical depiction of the same basic realities. 199 00:10:01,392 --> 00:10:03,936 And then you have the seven, 200 00:10:03,936 --> 00:10:06,939 bowls at the end, which are the last 201 00:10:07,023 --> 00:10:10,151 and final sort of installation of that, 202 00:10:10,568 --> 00:10:13,404 that same judgment, judgment, judgment, 203 00:10:13,404 --> 00:10:16,073 final judgment, And where does that end? 204 00:10:16,073 --> 00:10:18,993 So we had chapter seven and then we're in chapter 11. 205 00:10:18,993 --> 00:10:21,621 And then where's this latest, cycle? 206 00:10:21,621 --> 00:10:26,667 I guess you could say, the seven bowls ends, kind of takes us right to, 207 00:10:27,627 --> 00:10:28,961 chapter 16. 208 00:10:28,961 --> 00:10:31,088 Okay. 209 00:10:31,088 --> 00:10:32,381 Which 210 00:10:32,381 --> 00:10:35,384 is, which announces the destruction of Babylon. 211 00:10:36,010 --> 00:10:39,847 And then the next chapters are about the fall of Babylon 212 00:10:40,264 --> 00:10:43,851 and the final, you know, the final judgment, a new creation. 213 00:10:43,851 --> 00:10:46,020 So it kind of takes us out right there. 214 00:10:46,020 --> 00:10:50,066 So what's confusing about these is that it's easy to 215 00:10:50,441 --> 00:10:55,154 to want to line up the trumpets, the bowls and the seals sort of separately 216 00:10:55,154 --> 00:10:58,199 and say, we put these on this, these are going to happen. 217 00:10:58,199 --> 00:11:00,660 And these years followed by these, followed by these, 218 00:11:00,660 --> 00:11:03,663 but instead we should say, no, it's like it's like a spiral 219 00:11:03,871 --> 00:11:07,792 that that goes like this and like this and like this. 220 00:11:07,958 --> 00:11:10,461 Right? Literarily, yeah. Okay. 221 00:11:10,461 --> 00:11:11,754 I'm starting to see that. 222 00:11:11,754 --> 00:11:15,883 That gives a lot more of a, of a, almost like an arc through the book 223 00:11:15,966 --> 00:11:19,679 that you could, you could track, not track with, you know, counting 224 00:11:19,804 --> 00:11:22,098 numbers and dates and figures and things. 225 00:11:22,098 --> 00:11:25,893 It's you're saying it's not intended to be that way necessarily, 226 00:11:25,893 --> 00:11:30,523 but a literary arc, the literary arc but also looming or so. 227 00:11:30,564 --> 00:11:31,982 Yeah. Yeah, yeah. 228 00:11:32,983 --> 00:11:34,985 That's fascinating though, because because I'm thinking 229 00:11:34,985 --> 00:11:38,030 about there's other points in Scripture where, where that happens to. 230 00:11:38,072 --> 00:11:38,364 Right. 231 00:11:38,364 --> 00:11:39,615 Like where you kind of have 232 00:11:39,615 --> 00:11:42,827 maybe one of the prophets like hit it and then they'll loop back around 233 00:11:42,827 --> 00:11:43,536 and get it again. 234 00:11:43,536 --> 00:11:45,746 From when you were saying at first, John, is that way. Yeah. 235 00:11:45,746 --> 00:11:47,623 Isaiah likes to do this kind of thing. 236 00:11:47,623 --> 00:11:49,959 Yeah. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. 237 00:11:49,959 --> 00:11:54,797 I'm guessing if you were aware of this style of presenting material, 238 00:11:55,756 --> 00:11:58,843 it probably shows up in a lot of places and I can see how that could it's 239 00:11:59,301 --> 00:12:02,138 what is this, a way of reinforcing the material 240 00:12:02,138 --> 00:12:05,683 or helping it be more memorable, or is it just a style of presenting things? 241 00:12:05,766 --> 00:12:07,560 I think it's a number of things. It's, 242 00:12:08,936 --> 00:12:10,146 you know, we don't ask all of 243 00:12:10,146 --> 00:12:13,357 those questions about genres that we're familiar with. 244 00:12:14,108 --> 00:12:14,483 Right. 245 00:12:14,483 --> 00:12:17,528 So, like, we could if someone from a, 246 00:12:17,820 --> 00:12:20,781 you know, the 32nd century or whatever 247 00:12:20,781 --> 00:12:23,659 comes back to the 21st century and says, 248 00:12:23,659 --> 00:12:26,454 why do these people what's what's that? 249 00:12:26,454 --> 00:12:28,456 What's up with the way they do sci fi? 250 00:12:28,456 --> 00:12:28,914 Like what? 251 00:12:28,914 --> 00:12:30,124 Sci fi is just strange. 252 00:12:30,124 --> 00:12:32,376 Like, why do they have these creatures do this? 253 00:12:32,376 --> 00:12:34,545 And you're like, well, 254 00:12:34,545 --> 00:12:35,838 that's the way it is. 255 00:12:35,838 --> 00:12:37,214 Like, it, it it 256 00:12:37,214 --> 00:12:41,594 that's, that's the way it wouldn't be sci fi if we didn't have whatever. 257 00:12:41,594 --> 00:12:44,138 I, I don't like sci fi, so I don't, I don't know, but like, 258 00:12:44,138 --> 00:12:45,556 but that's a vivid example. 259 00:12:45,556 --> 00:12:47,641 That's obviously a thing in pop culture. 260 00:12:47,641 --> 00:12:49,769 And it's not like you have to explain it. 261 00:12:49,769 --> 00:12:52,188 It's just you just have known. 262 00:12:52,188 --> 00:12:54,565 People just know this is what it is, right? 263 00:12:54,565 --> 00:12:57,568 And it produces a real a real genuine effect, I think. 264 00:12:57,735 --> 00:12:59,403 So there's many reasons for that. 265 00:12:59,403 --> 00:13:03,115 But the tricky thing is that, and these different judgments, 266 00:13:03,908 --> 00:13:05,326 all connect to the Old Testament. 267 00:13:05,326 --> 00:13:07,119 There's a lot of the plagues of Egypt. 268 00:13:08,245 --> 00:13:08,954 A lot of the 269 00:13:08,954 --> 00:13:12,249 imagery from the plagues of Egypt is, is here in these judgments. 270 00:13:12,249 --> 00:13:15,085 And it would be fun to get into that. But we can't, 271 00:13:15,085 --> 00:13:18,547 I mean, well, we could it's just the episode, 272 00:13:18,547 --> 00:13:22,551 there's so much material here and just a plug in it for that. 273 00:13:22,551 --> 00:13:25,095 I mean, people keep saying, you know, you should do a whole series on this. 274 00:13:25,095 --> 00:13:27,640 So, I don't know, maybe one day this will turn into a whole course 275 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:29,225 because there's just so much here. 276 00:13:29,225 --> 00:13:32,019 that's one of my goals is to do a whole course on it someday. 277 00:13:32,019 --> 00:13:32,728 We’ll have to see about that, anyways. 278 00:13:32,728 --> 00:13:34,063 Yeah. But continuing. Yeah. 279 00:13:34,063 --> 00:13:36,398 So anyway, that can all be confusing, right? 280 00:13:36,398 --> 00:13:39,193 So you go through and it's like going in spirals. So 281 00:13:40,236 --> 00:13:41,320 these three anchor points. 282 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:44,031 First the letters to the churches. 283 00:13:44,031 --> 00:13:47,284 These are easy to grasp on to easy to to keep a handle on. 284 00:13:47,701 --> 00:13:51,580 And these really, really help are supposed to serve 285 00:13:51,580 --> 00:13:54,542 as the lens by which we read the book. 286 00:13:55,042 --> 00:13:58,462 Because that's how it was to John's first to Revelations, first readers. 287 00:13:58,462 --> 00:13:59,338 Right. 288 00:13:59,338 --> 00:14:01,715 John sent this book, this book 289 00:14:01,715 --> 00:14:04,844 with these letters, you know, affixed to the front of the book. 290 00:14:04,844 --> 00:14:06,720 You know, it's like each each of them have their own 291 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:08,848 little sticky note at the beginning of the book of Revelation. 292 00:14:08,848 --> 00:14:10,266 Right. 293 00:14:10,266 --> 00:14:13,352 And so let's say you were the church at Pergamum, right? 294 00:14:13,853 --> 00:14:18,983 And you get this, and you, you pay special attention to your letter, right? 295 00:14:18,983 --> 00:14:21,777 You're like, whoa, this is a letter from Jesus. 296 00:14:24,154 --> 00:14:24,947 And then you 297 00:14:24,947 --> 00:14:28,117 read the rest of the book with your letter in mind. 298 00:14:28,993 --> 00:14:31,662 And when you see stuff, you're going to see lots of stuff 299 00:14:31,662 --> 00:14:35,416 in the rest of the book of Revelation that points back to your letter. 300 00:14:36,125 --> 00:14:38,085 And when you see that, you can like, oh, wow. 301 00:14:38,085 --> 00:14:40,087 Yeah. Ouch. 302 00:14:40,087 --> 00:14:43,674 You know, you feel convicted again or you feel like, comforted again 303 00:14:43,674 --> 00:14:48,429 or whatever, and you're always going, if you keep these letters in mind, 304 00:14:48,846 --> 00:14:51,849 you're always going to front and center. 305 00:14:53,350 --> 00:14:56,228 Sort of keep the main point, the main point, which is be 306 00:14:56,228 --> 00:14:59,440 one of the ones who conquers so that you will participate 307 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:05,070 in new creation and not be thrown into the Lake of fire type of thing. 308 00:15:05,070 --> 00:15:05,905 Right. 309 00:15:05,905 --> 00:15:08,657 And so I just want to take a couple of minutes and, 310 00:15:08,657 --> 00:15:13,203 and look at a couple of ways that the letters 311 00:15:13,829 --> 00:15:17,541 kind of preview some of the imagery that you see later in the, in the book. 312 00:15:18,125 --> 00:15:18,792 Oh yeah. 313 00:15:18,792 --> 00:15:22,880 That would be really interesting because they tend to be at least in my experience. 314 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:24,632 Yeah. It's like, oh, this section on the letters. Yeah. 315 00:15:24,632 --> 00:15:25,966 That makes sense. That's easy to understand. 316 00:15:25,966 --> 00:15:27,801 Oh, and then there's all this weird stuff 317 00:15:27,801 --> 00:15:30,596 and then the rest of the book and we'll look at that separately. 318 00:15:30,596 --> 00:15:32,932 That's always been at least my own experience 319 00:15:32,932 --> 00:15:34,642 of hearing people present it more that way. 320 00:15:34,642 --> 00:15:38,437 And that I always just kind of assumed that's kind of how it works. 321 00:15:38,479 --> 00:15:39,229 Exactly. Yeah. 322 00:15:39,229 --> 00:15:43,025 But there's not there's shouldn't be such a sharp, such a sharp line. 323 00:15:43,233 --> 00:15:45,069 But it makes sense because you got to keep in mind 324 00:15:45,069 --> 00:15:48,697 that these, this is a letter that was sent to churches 325 00:15:48,989 --> 00:15:52,409 very much like how other epistles and things were. 326 00:15:52,660 --> 00:15:56,705 I feel like I've completely lost touch of that context actually. Yes. 327 00:15:57,122 --> 00:16:00,793 Like I think like you said, people tend to almost bifurcate Revelation 328 00:16:00,793 --> 00:16:01,961 and it's like, oh, 329 00:16:01,961 --> 00:16:04,922 the letters to the churches, thank God this is something we can preach on, 330 00:16:05,297 --> 00:16:07,716 you know, and then the rest of the book is like, whoa! 331 00:16:07,716 --> 00:16:08,801 Or the other way around. 332 00:16:08,801 --> 00:16:12,096 It's like, wow, we have all our awesome prophecy charts on the rest of Revelation. 333 00:16:12,513 --> 00:16:15,099 And then the letters to the churches 334 00:16:15,099 --> 00:16:18,435 kind of seems less relevant or people come up with strange, speculative, 335 00:16:20,020 --> 00:16:22,690 theories on that too, on the letters. 336 00:16:22,690 --> 00:16:26,151 So for example, the, 337 00:16:27,194 --> 00:16:29,947 the church to, the letter to the church at Ephesus. 338 00:16:29,947 --> 00:16:30,823 Right. 339 00:16:30,823 --> 00:16:34,201 He starts out, I know your works, your toil, your patient endurance, etc.. 340 00:16:34,743 --> 00:16:35,995 And he and he does this. 341 00:16:35,995 --> 00:16:38,163 Jesus gives his whole, 342 00:16:38,163 --> 00:16:39,581 all of his warnings and stuff. 343 00:16:39,581 --> 00:16:41,959 And then at the end of the letter, he says, he who has an ear, 344 00:16:41,959 --> 00:16:45,462 let him hear what the spirit says to the churches, to the one who conquers, 345 00:16:45,462 --> 00:16:48,590 I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God. 346 00:16:49,216 --> 00:16:53,721 And that's not just throwaway language, because it's at it's Revelation 22. 347 00:16:54,013 --> 00:16:56,890 Yeah. Where the tree of life shows up again. 348 00:16:56,890 --> 00:17:00,686 That's in the new Jerusalem, the new creation. And, 349 00:17:02,187 --> 00:17:03,814 that is 350 00:17:03,814 --> 00:17:06,400 that's the final, you know, that's the final hope, right? 351 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:09,194 But it's it's right here. Right. 352 00:17:09,194 --> 00:17:11,530 It's in the letter as well. It's like right at the beginning. 353 00:17:11,530 --> 00:17:13,699 So then you almost have it like this is where we're starting. 354 00:17:13,699 --> 00:17:16,493 And then at the end of the book you see the same thing in there. Yeah. 355 00:17:16,493 --> 00:17:19,538 Connecting back and forth to the church at Ephesus is supposed 356 00:17:19,538 --> 00:17:24,501 to be when it, when it gets to chapter 22 and reads about the tree of life, 357 00:17:24,543 --> 00:17:27,546 they're supposed to say, oh, yeah, Jesus 358 00:17:27,755 --> 00:17:30,299 specifically told us, 359 00:17:30,299 --> 00:17:34,470 reminded us to be someone who overcomes so that we experienced that vision. 360 00:17:34,511 --> 00:17:35,304 Right. 361 00:17:35,304 --> 00:17:39,349 It's very much taking these visions, that vision, and personalizing it and 362 00:17:39,349 --> 00:17:40,434 and applying it right. 363 00:17:40,434 --> 00:17:44,313 Because these visions in Revelation are meant to be practical in a sense, 364 00:17:44,313 --> 00:17:48,192 I don't I'm not a huge fan of that word, but it's it's they're meant to be applied. 365 00:17:48,192 --> 00:17:49,735 They're not meant to be so speculative 366 00:17:49,735 --> 00:17:52,821 I think that that's a piece that keeps coming up as we've done 367 00:17:52,821 --> 00:17:55,532 different, different discussions on Revelation on this podcast. 368 00:17:55,532 --> 00:17:57,409 Again, we'll put all the links down because I'm not quite 369 00:17:57,409 --> 00:17:58,994 sure what order we’ll release these in. But, 370 00:18:00,079 --> 00:18:00,496 is the 371 00:18:00,496 --> 00:18:03,749 sense that Revelation turns into this big 372 00:18:04,833 --> 00:18:06,960 thing on speculation about the future and this and that, 373 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:09,838 and I felt like I was really starting to lose touch with it. 374 00:18:09,838 --> 00:18:11,715 And it's like, well, I don't know, how is this even relevant? 375 00:18:11,715 --> 00:18:13,592 Okay, sure, maybe this is going to happen. What? 376 00:18:13,592 --> 00:18:16,595 I don't know, but it doesn't really seem to make any difference in my own life. 377 00:18:16,678 --> 00:18:21,058 And you're saying, well, okay, we're we're missing a huge point of this. 378 00:18:21,058 --> 00:18:22,101 It is relevant. 379 00:18:22,101 --> 00:18:24,520 It is it matters for our lives today 380 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:27,064 it starts with the letters to the seven churches, right. 381 00:18:27,064 --> 00:18:28,398 It's it's an apocalypse. 382 00:18:28,398 --> 00:18:30,692 It's a it's a vision that John received. 383 00:18:30,692 --> 00:18:32,903 And then he figured out how to write it down. 384 00:18:32,903 --> 00:18:34,071 Took a long time. Probably. 385 00:18:35,572 --> 00:18:35,781 Yeah. 386 00:18:35,781 --> 00:18:37,574 So it is a real vision. 387 00:18:37,574 --> 00:18:40,577 I mean, John, I should say John received real visions, I think. 388 00:18:40,786 --> 00:18:43,747 But then he spent a lot of time, I think, thinking about how to record 389 00:18:43,747 --> 00:18:44,414 these visions well. 390 00:18:44,414 --> 00:18:49,878 But it's also a letter right to real churches to encourage them to conquer. 391 00:18:49,878 --> 00:18:52,840 And that imagery from the rest of the book is embedded here. 392 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:55,843 So we got that in the letter to Smyrna. 393 00:18:56,802 --> 00:19:01,306 Jesus is the one who is the one who died and came to life. 394 00:19:01,974 --> 00:19:04,726 He says the words of the first and last who died and came to life, 395 00:19:04,726 --> 00:19:10,149 which reminds us of, a few chapters later, the lamb who had had been slain. 396 00:19:10,149 --> 00:19:12,943 Right. Jesus says this kind of thing throughout. 397 00:19:12,943 --> 00:19:15,195 And there's also the beast is the parody of that, 398 00:19:15,195 --> 00:19:17,614 who looks like he had a deadly wound that was healed. 399 00:19:17,614 --> 00:19:19,908 Now he's he's the anti messiah. 400 00:19:19,908 --> 00:19:21,535 So you have that right away. You have, 401 00:19:23,245 --> 00:19:25,289 in chapters nine and ten, 402 00:19:25,289 --> 00:19:28,292 I know your tribulation, your poverty, etc. 403 00:19:28,500 --> 00:19:30,085 don't fear what you about to suffer. 404 00:19:30,085 --> 00:19:32,171 The devil is about to throw some of you into prison, 405 00:19:32,171 --> 00:19:35,174 that you may be tested and for ten days you will have tribulation. 406 00:19:35,174 --> 00:19:38,177 Be faithful to death and I will give you the crown of life. 407 00:19:38,427 --> 00:19:43,098 This very much previews language later in Revelation about how the beast is 408 00:19:43,098 --> 00:19:48,187 given, is granted to overcome, to conquer God's people for a time, 409 00:19:48,604 --> 00:19:51,607 there's this vision of the two witnesses that, 410 00:19:52,649 --> 00:19:55,235 that's just like a bizarre piece, by the way. 411 00:19:55,235 --> 00:19:56,153 Yeah, it's very bizarre. 412 00:19:56,153 --> 00:20:00,032 I mean, even for Revelation level bizarre, It's kind of like the most surrealist, 413 00:20:01,033 --> 00:20:03,911 thing, little kind of element. 414 00:20:03,911 --> 00:20:07,080 But, most scholars think that this, 415 00:20:07,414 --> 00:20:10,709 the two witnesses are simply a, a depiction, again, 416 00:20:10,709 --> 00:20:13,170 from a different perspective of the church. 417 00:20:13,170 --> 00:20:13,795 Right? 418 00:20:13,795 --> 00:20:17,633 The God's people who bear witness to him and suffer. 419 00:20:17,925 --> 00:20:18,717 Right. 420 00:20:18,717 --> 00:20:22,804 And, the beast and co have authority to end up killing them. 421 00:20:23,013 --> 00:20:25,182 Right? And then God raises them up. 422 00:20:25,182 --> 00:20:28,769 So you have this when they get when the church at Smyrna gets to chapter 423 00:20:28,769 --> 00:20:31,772 11 and reads this, they say, yes, that's right. 424 00:20:32,231 --> 00:20:36,026 The beast is going to be able to maybe kill us. 425 00:20:37,110 --> 00:20:40,405 But the lamb has the keys of 426 00:20:40,405 --> 00:20:44,243 death and Hades, and he will, you know, he will raise us right. 427 00:20:44,576 --> 00:20:47,996 This imagery, in one of the weirdest visions in the book, 428 00:20:48,330 --> 00:20:51,959 is still supposed to be for the people of Smyrna, right? 429 00:20:51,959 --> 00:20:54,962 It's supposed to remind them, yes. 430 00:20:55,671 --> 00:20:58,048 The beast may put us to death. 431 00:20:58,048 --> 00:21:00,425 We will have tribulation. 432 00:21:00,425 --> 00:21:03,887 But we'll overcome because the lamb will, you know, will be raised. 433 00:21:03,929 --> 00:21:04,888 That. the. 434 00:21:04,888 --> 00:21:06,181 Oh, it makes a lot of sense. Yeah. 435 00:21:06,181 --> 00:21:10,018 I just it's so easy to to read this and it just kind of washes over you 436 00:21:10,018 --> 00:21:14,106 and you don't actually think to to try to put the pieces back together, 437 00:21:14,189 --> 00:21:16,233 so to speak. I guess, like it's like that. 438 00:21:16,233 --> 00:21:16,984 It's almost like a puzzle 439 00:21:16,984 --> 00:21:20,946 without the, without the box, picture to where do all these pieces go? 440 00:21:20,946 --> 00:21:21,238 You know, 441 00:21:23,156 --> 00:21:24,574 or at least that's how it feels. 442 00:21:24,574 --> 00:21:29,329 And I think that is often why people just don't really read the book that much. 443 00:21:29,329 --> 00:21:32,332 Yeah. You know, or maybe they do, and they go way off on bunny trails. 444 00:21:32,332 --> 00:21:34,084 Actually, we were just doing another podcast 445 00:21:34,084 --> 00:21:36,086 earlier today with a different, different guest. 446 00:21:36,086 --> 00:21:37,504 And we're after the cameras are off. 447 00:21:37,504 --> 00:21:38,422 We were talking about 448 00:21:38,422 --> 00:21:42,426 the latest prophecy book that's coming out and just being like, oh, no, they just 449 00:21:42,634 --> 00:21:43,677 they're totally 450 00:21:43,677 --> 00:21:46,680 they're they're wildly speculating down that there's one rabbit trail and they’re 451 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:50,559 just going waaaay off, and then you're missing so much of this in the text. 452 00:21:51,143 --> 00:21:53,353 Anyway, so not to get off on a bunny trail ourselves 453 00:21:53,353 --> 00:21:54,896 No, I think that’s a good way of talking about it. 454 00:21:54,896 --> 00:21:59,860 The and I, I think, if you will, these letters to the churches 455 00:21:59,860 --> 00:22:03,530 can be in one sense part of that box, 456 00:22:04,114 --> 00:22:06,116 the picture of the puzzle on the box, you know. 457 00:22:06,116 --> 00:22:07,242 Oh, yeah. 458 00:22:07,242 --> 00:22:08,910 Not that it. I never thought of that. 459 00:22:08,910 --> 00:22:11,997 Not that it fills all the pieces in, but at least grounds you. 460 00:22:11,997 --> 00:22:14,291 It's a lens. So I, I like to think of these letters as a lens, 461 00:22:15,250 --> 00:22:16,877 to read the book through. 462 00:22:16,877 --> 00:22:19,379 And if you're start speculating in crazy ways 463 00:22:19,379 --> 00:22:22,382 that would never 464 00:22:22,799 --> 00:22:26,094 are sort of at odds with the purpose of these seven letters. 465 00:22:26,386 --> 00:22:27,804 That might be a sign that maybe I'm 466 00:22:27,804 --> 00:22:29,556 reading Revelation through a slightly wrong lens. 467 00:22:29,556 --> 00:22:31,141 maybe I'm taking this a little too far. 468 00:22:31,141 --> 00:22:33,143 Yeah. Yeah, exactly. 469 00:22:33,143 --> 00:22:36,271 Smyrna’s letter ends with, with Jesus saying, 470 00:22:36,271 --> 00:22:39,274 the one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death. 471 00:22:39,358 --> 00:22:42,694 And that phrase, the second death shows up once more in Revelation. 472 00:22:42,819 --> 00:22:45,697 Yeah, at the end. And speaking of the lake of fire. Right. 473 00:22:45,697 --> 00:22:47,991 That's that's a good way of saying it. 474 00:22:47,991 --> 00:22:52,079 And I think that's the easy bit to miss is the quote 475 00:22:52,079 --> 00:22:55,624 unquote hyperlinks or whatever, you know, the linking, the weaving that's going on. 476 00:22:55,624 --> 00:22:58,627 Because is this not also some of this to do with, 477 00:22:59,252 --> 00:23:04,174 more a Western modern way of engaging with information 478 00:23:04,174 --> 00:23:07,969 where I expect this to be a point 1,2,3,4,5, it's all a nice order. 479 00:23:08,470 --> 00:23:09,513 It's just right here. 480 00:23:09,513 --> 00:23:12,140 And that's not how this book is laid out at all. 481 00:23:12,140 --> 00:23:15,060 Oh, yeah, very much. But but even in the modern West, 482 00:23:16,478 --> 00:23:19,356 in, in good literature 483 00:23:19,356 --> 00:23:23,193 or or visual arts or even or maybe even music, 484 00:23:24,069 --> 00:23:27,489 you have, you have things like this, right? 485 00:23:27,489 --> 00:23:30,742 A good piece of a good piece of literature or poetry 486 00:23:31,159 --> 00:23:34,079 is going to be very elusive and very dense and not linear. 487 00:23:34,079 --> 00:23:36,373 Right. It's going to that's a great point. 488 00:23:36,373 --> 00:23:39,126 I yeah, I hadn't thought of that. So it's not like we've ditched it. 489 00:23:39,126 --> 00:23:40,877 It's just that we've come to the Bible 490 00:23:40,877 --> 00:23:44,464 expecting the Bible to be sort of a bullet point list. 491 00:23:44,798 --> 00:23:47,050 Instead of a poem, right? 492 00:23:47,050 --> 00:23:48,510 Isn't it? Isn't there. 493 00:23:48,510 --> 00:23:50,512 And this is more like a poem. 494 00:23:50,512 --> 00:23:55,142 this might get me in hot water, but I've heard the Bible described. 495 00:23:55,142 --> 00:23:58,061 Oh, this is the instruction manual, you know, and all that stuff. 496 00:23:58,061 --> 00:24:00,730 Not saying it's not, but if you have this idea. 497 00:24:00,730 --> 00:24:02,732 Oh, it's an instruction manual, right? 498 00:24:02,732 --> 00:24:05,235 That's like, oh, instructions like point 1, point 2. 499 00:24:05,235 --> 00:24:06,695 You know, it's very linear. 500 00:24:06,695 --> 00:24:09,489 It's it reads kind of boring, like a textbook or something. 501 00:24:10,866 --> 00:24:13,577 It doesn't seem it feels like that could get it 502 00:24:13,577 --> 00:24:15,579 almost the wrong impression of what we're looking at here. 503 00:24:15,579 --> 00:24:18,540 I mean, it is an instruction manual, yeah. At a very loose level. 504 00:24:18,540 --> 00:24:20,917 Yeah. I know if, Yeah. No, I think that's right. 505 00:24:20,917 --> 00:24:21,543 Way off. 506 00:24:21,543 --> 00:24:23,670 No, no, I think that's absolutely I think that's actually 507 00:24:23,670 --> 00:24:25,922 I think that's a really I think that's insightful 508 00:24:25,922 --> 00:24:29,718 because because I've heard people say that and I think trying to be helpful, 509 00:24:29,759 --> 00:24:30,802 all that stuff. Of course. 510 00:24:30,802 --> 00:24:34,139 But it's like, well, if if I'm coming to this, looking at it as 511 00:24:34,139 --> 00:24:38,059 like a textbook or a list of instructions, maybe that's a way of saying, 512 00:24:38,685 --> 00:24:42,230 yeah, I think you're going to miss a lot of what you're saying is like, oh, well, 513 00:24:42,272 --> 00:24:43,732 it it uses this language here. 514 00:24:43,732 --> 00:24:45,650 And then, hey, later on it refers back to, you know, 515 00:24:45,650 --> 00:24:47,944 and it's linking back and forth and there's weaving 516 00:24:47,944 --> 00:24:50,780 and there's layers involved of, of meaning. 517 00:24:50,780 --> 00:24:52,824 Because in an instruction manual you're not doing any of that. 518 00:24:52,824 --> 00:24:54,618 It's just like surface text, you know? 519 00:24:54,618 --> 00:24:56,244 Anyway, I could be way off. 520 00:24:56,244 --> 00:24:57,829 you're absolutely right. 521 00:24:57,829 --> 00:25:00,457 I think good wisdom literature, 522 00:25:02,375 --> 00:25:04,085 in Proverbs 523 00:25:04,085 --> 00:25:07,631 even sometimes you read things like about the, 524 00:25:07,923 --> 00:25:12,469 the words of the wise and their riddles right in, in sometimes in wisdom 525 00:25:12,469 --> 00:25:16,890 tradition, there is this sense that you to gain wisdom. 526 00:25:18,183 --> 00:25:21,186 Sometimes you have to sit with a riddle for a long time. 527 00:25:21,603 --> 00:25:23,647 That's part of what the wise do. 528 00:25:23,647 --> 00:25:24,773 That's a good point, right? 529 00:25:24,773 --> 00:25:29,319 So even even in instruction, sometimes it's very I mean, like Proverbs 530 00:25:29,319 --> 00:25:32,155 sometimes has very, you know, don't do, don't do stupid things. 531 00:25:32,155 --> 00:25:35,158 Right. Right. Insightful instruction. 532 00:25:35,450 --> 00:25:37,202 But other times, 533 00:25:37,202 --> 00:25:40,539 other times it's, it's riddles are even things that seem paradoxical. 534 00:25:40,622 --> 00:25:40,956 Yeah. 535 00:25:40,956 --> 00:25:44,167 And you're left with that because sometimes the best way to be instructed 536 00:25:44,584 --> 00:25:47,504 is to sit with something that's a little less explicit. 537 00:25:47,504 --> 00:25:50,006 You know Well, but isn't this kind of classic, 538 00:25:51,383 --> 00:25:52,759 teaching style that Jesus 539 00:25:52,759 --> 00:25:57,138 uses with parables where even the his own disciples are coming up like, wait. 540 00:25:57,138 --> 00:25:58,848 Yeah. You know, we're not quite tracking here. 541 00:25:58,848 --> 00:25:59,516 Can you explain this? 542 00:25:59,516 --> 00:26:02,811 And there's something profound about, say, one of the parables of Jesus. 543 00:26:02,811 --> 00:26:03,687 You can read it, 544 00:26:03,687 --> 00:26:06,439 and you can just just sit with that parable for a long time, 545 00:26:06,439 --> 00:26:08,692 and just layers of meaning will start coming through. 546 00:26:08,692 --> 00:26:09,317 And it's not 547 00:26:09,317 --> 00:26:12,279 if it were just an instruction, you'd be like, okay, .123, right? 548 00:26:12,279 --> 00:26:15,115 Okay. Not, you know, it's not like that anyways. 549 00:26:15,115 --> 00:26:18,868 And I don't want to derail this, but I think it feels like that. 550 00:26:18,868 --> 00:26:21,162 That's a piece that’s starting to really click for me 551 00:26:21,162 --> 00:26:24,708 because I have heard that a lot, you know, in my own life. 552 00:26:24,708 --> 00:26:29,963 And it feels almost like that's not wrong, but it feels like you could miss a lot. 553 00:26:30,171 --> 00:26:33,174 Yeah. Of of layers, you know, levels. 554 00:26:33,216 --> 00:26:36,344 Again, I'm thinking like like a parable of Jesus, if you turn that into a 555 00:26:36,803 --> 00:26:38,430 just an instruction manual, I don't know, it 556 00:26:38,430 --> 00:26:40,557 feels like you're going to miss some stuff there, you know. 557 00:26:40,557 --> 00:26:43,310 So anyways, I'm, I feel like I'm going to have to go 558 00:26:43,310 --> 00:26:46,062 and think on this a while, honestly, because that's. 559 00:26:46,062 --> 00:26:47,105 Yeah. Yeah. 560 00:26:47,105 --> 00:26:51,276 So I think that's so again, these, these can serve as the letters to the churches 561 00:26:51,276 --> 00:26:55,280 I think can serve as a lens through which to read the rest of the book. 562 00:26:55,280 --> 00:27:00,702 In, in, you know, insofar as they themselves have embedded within them 563 00:27:01,244 --> 00:27:04,956 links to the later imagery and it's helping you to realize, you know, 564 00:27:05,582 --> 00:27:08,418 all the imagery we see later is meant 565 00:27:08,418 --> 00:27:12,964 to be reminding these churches how to be faithful to Jesus. 566 00:27:13,298 --> 00:27:15,258 And overcome. Right. 567 00:27:15,258 --> 00:27:20,263 And so you see things like the second death or, in Pergamum, you have, 568 00:27:22,223 --> 00:27:23,975 mean Jesus has a few things 569 00:27:23,975 --> 00:27:27,020 against these people because, 570 00:27:29,022 --> 00:27:31,274 they hold the practices of, 571 00:27:31,274 --> 00:27:34,110 the teaching of Balaam, etc. 572 00:27:34,110 --> 00:27:37,405 and if they don't repent, Jesus is going to wage war again 573 00:27:37,614 --> 00:27:42,077 against them with the sword of his mouth, which shows up in chapter 19. 574 00:27:42,994 --> 00:27:44,412 Yeah. Oh, whoa. 575 00:27:44,412 --> 00:27:44,788 Yeah. 576 00:27:44,788 --> 00:27:47,791 Oh, that's fascinating, because that's that famous imagery of 577 00:27:48,083 --> 00:27:50,335 of the rider on the horse. yep. 578 00:27:50,335 --> 00:27:52,253 And the sword out of the mouth. Yeah. 579 00:27:52,253 --> 00:27:54,214 And. Oh, interesting. 580 00:27:54,214 --> 00:27:55,298 And I've never noticed that. 581 00:27:55,298 --> 00:27:59,219 Yeah, but but when you read, about the 582 00:28:00,053 --> 00:28:02,764 this the word of, you know, who comes riding on the horse 583 00:28:02,764 --> 00:28:05,767 with the sword out of his mouth, which is, comes from, 584 00:28:05,850 --> 00:28:08,853 Isaiah, I think, 585 00:28:09,229 --> 00:28:12,232 again, the people from Pergamum are supposed to say, 586 00:28:13,066 --> 00:28:17,153 if we don't repent, that sword is going to be wielded against us, right? 587 00:28:17,153 --> 00:28:18,988 Again, it's not a when is that going to happen? 588 00:28:18,988 --> 00:28:22,033 It's that's we're going to be on the wrong side of that sword 589 00:28:22,575 --> 00:28:24,953 if we don't repent of our sexual immorality. 590 00:28:24,953 --> 00:28:26,621 That's what Jesus is telling them. 591 00:28:26,621 --> 00:28:30,959 And that's how they're supposed to encounter that image of the rider 592 00:28:30,959 --> 00:28:31,418 on the horse. 593 00:28:31,418 --> 00:28:33,336 Later, because they're going to be reading through the rest of this book 594 00:28:33,336 --> 00:28:36,715 and be like, oh, that kind of steps on some toes, you know, or like, oh, 595 00:28:37,090 --> 00:28:37,841 pay extra attention here. 596 00:28:37,841 --> 00:28:39,759 From his mouth comes a sharp sword. 597 00:28:39,759 --> 00:28:43,638 So they're just be reading right from his mouth comes a sharp sword, which, 598 00:28:44,222 --> 00:28:45,640 with which to strike down the nations. 599 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:48,685 And he will rule them with a rod of iron and they're like, oops. 600 00:28:50,395 --> 00:28:53,398 But Jesus mentioned that in our letter, right. 601 00:28:53,481 --> 00:28:55,191 We better avoid that. Right. 602 00:28:55,191 --> 00:28:58,111 So it's that kind of thing, then it that is powerful. 603 00:28:58,111 --> 00:28:59,571 That's really. 604 00:28:59,571 --> 00:29:02,031 at the end of their letter of that letter. 605 00:29:02,031 --> 00:29:04,659 I will give him a white stone with a new name written on the stone 606 00:29:04,659 --> 00:29:06,745 that no one knows except the one who receives it. 607 00:29:06,745 --> 00:29:10,957 Jesus is later described in Revelation as having, his own 608 00:29:11,666 --> 00:29:14,669 name written that no one knows his own secret name. 609 00:29:14,669 --> 00:29:15,295 Yeah. 610 00:29:15,295 --> 00:29:19,758 Which represents probably, so if you if you have your own secret name, 611 00:29:19,799 --> 00:29:22,802 he has his own secret name, and you're sort of led into this, 612 00:29:24,471 --> 00:29:26,181 it represents perhaps 613 00:29:26,181 --> 00:29:30,435 authority, special authority, but also maybe special, special knowledge. 614 00:29:30,435 --> 00:29:32,312 Special relationship or something. Right. 615 00:29:32,312 --> 00:29:34,314 But again, it's tied together. 616 00:29:34,314 --> 00:29:36,483 When you read about Jesus secret name, you're supposed remember. 617 00:29:36,483 --> 00:29:39,027 Oh, and he's going to give us one, too, if we belong to him. 618 00:29:39,027 --> 00:29:39,527 Right. 619 00:29:39,527 --> 00:29:41,780 Let's stay with him kind of thing. Right? 620 00:29:41,780 --> 00:29:43,573 Yeah, yeah. 621 00:29:43,573 --> 00:29:46,576 Just a couple more examples here, and then I’ll stop. 622 00:29:46,951 --> 00:29:48,161 So in Thyatira, 623 00:29:49,162 --> 00:29:52,165 there is this woman that Jesus calls Jezebel. 624 00:29:52,165 --> 00:29:52,874 Right? 625 00:29:52,874 --> 00:29:56,544 And she's seducing people to, of the church to practice 626 00:29:56,544 --> 00:29:58,838 sexual immorality and to eat food offered to idols. 627 00:29:58,838 --> 00:30:01,424 I gave her time to repent, but she refused to repent. 628 00:30:01,424 --> 00:30:03,468 So I'm going to throw her onto a sickbed. 629 00:30:03,468 --> 00:30:06,596 And those who commit adultery with her I will throw into great tribulation 630 00:30:06,596 --> 00:30:09,599 until they repent, 631 00:30:09,682 --> 00:30:11,267 And then we get to. 632 00:30:11,267 --> 00:30:12,268 So this is talking about 633 00:30:12,268 --> 00:30:15,688 some probably specific false teaching that was in that church, 634 00:30:16,064 --> 00:30:19,400 that was teaching the people to go into licentiousness or whatever. 635 00:30:20,485 --> 00:30:24,989 And Jesus describes this as using this very kind of Old Testament 636 00:30:24,989 --> 00:30:31,204 adultery imagery that then is judged by the adulteress and her lovers, 637 00:30:31,246 --> 00:30:34,916 like all being thrown onto this bed together and facing lots of tribulation. 638 00:30:35,583 --> 00:30:38,586 But in the later chapters on the fall of Babylon, 639 00:30:39,337 --> 00:30:42,340 Babylon is the harlot, and Babylon and her. 640 00:30:42,632 --> 00:30:43,091 Lovers. 641 00:30:43,091 --> 00:30:47,136 Basically the nations, experience great tribulation, right? 642 00:30:47,136 --> 00:30:50,139 They're essentially thrown into this, 643 00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:54,102 sick bed, if you will, right, of torment and stuff. 644 00:30:54,561 --> 00:30:57,981 And so when you read the chapter 18 on the Fall of Babylon, 645 00:30:58,481 --> 00:31:02,694 you just be like, oh, man, this is like a this scene about how this the harlot 646 00:31:02,694 --> 00:31:07,448 Babylon is being is being thrown into torment with all the people who, 647 00:31:08,408 --> 00:31:09,033 drank the 648 00:31:09,033 --> 00:31:11,995 wine of the passion for sexual immorality with her. 649 00:31:12,871 --> 00:31:16,583 You know, that sounds a little too eerily like what Jesus warned our church 650 00:31:16,583 --> 00:31:20,461 about the false teaching, what's going to what he's going to do to us 651 00:31:20,879 --> 00:31:21,796 in the false teaching. 652 00:31:21,796 --> 00:31:24,799 But we're, 653 00:31:24,924 --> 00:31:26,551 we're sort of the licentiousness. 654 00:31:26,551 --> 00:31:31,681 We're going into Whoa, it's it's like, almost like a way of reinforcing 655 00:31:32,265 --> 00:31:36,394 things or or stuff that's here, but then a different, a different angle, 656 00:31:36,394 --> 00:31:40,315 almost like, to make it really memorable or to stick it, I guess. 657 00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:44,110 And I just, I think that the whole way like all of these imagery, all of this 658 00:31:44,110 --> 00:31:47,697 imagery in the rest of Revelation is meant to hit us like that. 659 00:31:47,697 --> 00:31:48,573 Right? 660 00:31:48,573 --> 00:31:51,534 Just like these specific embedded embedded ones. 661 00:31:51,534 --> 00:31:57,040 And that's again where we can miss the, the warnings like, almost or like, 662 00:31:57,206 --> 00:31:59,792 like you're saying is, it is kind of supposed to almost like 663 00:31:59,792 --> 00:32:02,337 smack you, metaphorically speaking, like, hey, pay attention to this. 664 00:32:02,337 --> 00:32:04,047 This is really important, right? 665 00:32:04,047 --> 00:32:06,090 Don't don't go down that street. 666 00:32:06,090 --> 00:32:10,261 But instead, if we're speculating, calculating years and dates and numbers 667 00:32:10,261 --> 00:32:12,722 and figures and all that stuff and trying to put it out there 668 00:32:12,722 --> 00:32:15,058 in the future somewhere, you may you may really miss that warning actually. 669 00:32:15,058 --> 00:32:15,350 Yeah. 670 00:32:15,350 --> 00:32:18,603 And you're, you may be missing the way these letters 671 00:32:18,603 --> 00:32:21,689 to the churches in a sense, are the author. 672 00:32:21,689 --> 00:32:26,069 And Jesus first application and interpretation of the rest of Revelation. 673 00:32:26,069 --> 00:32:26,569 Right. 674 00:32:26,569 --> 00:32:28,696 Oh, that's a that's a thought. 675 00:32:28,696 --> 00:32:32,075 And the, the you know, the way that Jesus is applying Revelation 676 00:32:32,533 --> 00:32:35,870 is pulling some of the imagery and pointing it out 677 00:32:35,870 --> 00:32:39,123 to specific churches and saying, make sure you catch this, right? 678 00:32:39,707 --> 00:32:41,376 Whoa, what a thought. 679 00:32:41,376 --> 00:32:43,753 Yeah, okay, I see that, though. 680 00:32:43,753 --> 00:32:45,254 So there's plenty more like this. 681 00:32:45,254 --> 00:32:47,340 And we're not going to there's no time to go through them all. 682 00:32:47,340 --> 00:32:49,509 There's only one more I want to mention. 683 00:32:49,509 --> 00:32:54,889 And it's this very curious phrase where where Jesus says, in the, 684 00:32:56,641 --> 00:32:58,893 the letter to Thyatira at the end, 685 00:32:58,893 --> 00:33:02,981 the one who conquers, I will give him authority over the nations. 686 00:33:02,981 --> 00:33:04,691 He will rule them with a rod of iron. 687 00:33:04,691 --> 00:33:07,944 This is Psalm two, which pops up throughout Revelation. 688 00:33:07,944 --> 00:33:09,862 Jesus has this authority of the Messiah, 689 00:33:09,862 --> 00:33:11,572 but he's going to share it with his people. 690 00:33:11,572 --> 00:33:14,575 And then he says, and I will give him the morning star. 691 00:33:14,909 --> 00:33:15,743 Okay? 692 00:33:15,743 --> 00:33:17,120 So just like, okay, thanks. 693 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:19,914 You know, like, oh that's great. Oh, whatever. 694 00:33:19,914 --> 00:33:21,416 I'm confused. Yeah, yeah. 695 00:33:21,416 --> 00:33:23,876 But the Morning Star, 696 00:33:23,876 --> 00:33:27,338 is is a, is is very much this. 697 00:33:27,338 --> 00:33:31,050 This language of the morning star is tied to Balaam’s oracle 698 00:33:31,175 --> 00:33:34,178 of the scepter and the star that will, 699 00:33:34,971 --> 00:33:39,642 that will come from Judah, which is, which becomes in, in the Bible, in Jewish 700 00:33:39,642 --> 00:33:43,396 tradition, a very important symbol of the coming Messiah. 701 00:33:43,730 --> 00:33:44,022 Right. 702 00:33:44,981 --> 00:33:47,984 And this, this 703 00:33:47,984 --> 00:33:50,737 phrase, this word, this wording shows up 704 00:33:50,737 --> 00:33:54,991 one more time in Revelation, and it's like it's at the very, very end. 705 00:33:55,158 --> 00:33:58,161 It's like the last, 706 00:33:58,161 --> 00:34:01,164 the last words of Jesus in the book, 707 00:34:01,581 --> 00:34:04,584 in chapter 22, 708 00:34:05,001 --> 00:34:08,504 I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. 709 00:34:08,504 --> 00:34:11,507 I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star, 710 00:34:13,217 --> 00:34:14,886 And so, like in this, in this weird 711 00:34:14,886 --> 00:34:19,057 way, Jesus seems to be saying that, yeah, I will give you the authority 712 00:34:19,057 --> 00:34:22,018 that I receive from the father, and I will give you myself. 713 00:34:23,561 --> 00:34:26,564 Like, if you overcome, you will get the morning star. 714 00:34:26,564 --> 00:34:29,400 And at the end of the book he says, that's me. 715 00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:30,693 Whoa! Like what? 716 00:34:30,693 --> 00:34:33,029 What is that? What does that mean? Like, 717 00:34:36,657 --> 00:34:37,116 I don't know. 718 00:34:37,116 --> 00:34:40,078 I think that's beautiful. Yeah. 719 00:34:40,078 --> 00:34:40,995 That's wild. 720 00:34:40,995 --> 00:34:43,998 I, I've not seen that before. No. 721 00:34:44,499 --> 00:34:46,709 The morning star. Yeah, 722 00:34:46,709 --> 00:34:48,419 That's all the way, Revelation 22. 723 00:34:48,419 --> 00:34:49,670 Right. Like all the way at the very end. 724 00:34:49,670 --> 00:34:51,756 imagine you're thinking about this. You're the letter. 725 00:34:51,756 --> 00:34:53,091 You're in the church of Thyatira. 726 00:34:53,091 --> 00:34:54,592 You're thinking you're given the morning star 727 00:34:54,592 --> 00:34:56,886 and you're like, I know that oracle about the scepter. 728 00:34:56,886 --> 00:35:00,681 And the star will come out of Judah, and that's that's Jesus. 729 00:35:00,681 --> 00:35:01,182 Yeah. 730 00:35:01,182 --> 00:35:02,642 And then you're just waiting. 731 00:35:02,642 --> 00:35:04,102 You're listening 732 00:35:04,102 --> 00:35:07,105 to the rest of the book being read, because that's how you receive Revelation. 733 00:35:07,105 --> 00:35:08,356 The book of any book of the Bible. 734 00:35:08,356 --> 00:35:11,192 Is somebody reading it to you don't have your own copy and your quiet time. 735 00:35:11,192 --> 00:35:11,943 Right? 736 00:35:11,943 --> 00:35:15,780 And then you come to the very last bit and Jesus says, I'm the morning star. And. 737 00:35:17,323 --> 00:35:19,158 Yeah, 738 00:35:19,158 --> 00:35:20,409 yeah. That's powerful. 739 00:35:20,409 --> 00:35:21,702 That is powerful. 740 00:35:21,702 --> 00:35:23,329 you say, that's why we have to overcome. 741 00:35:23,329 --> 00:35:25,248 Yeah, yeah. 742 00:35:25,248 --> 00:35:28,251 So, so these letters are 743 00:35:29,001 --> 00:35:32,046 I think the a lens like, okay, we're talking about 744 00:35:33,005 --> 00:35:35,883 there's all these spirals, there's these, these bowls and these trumpets 745 00:35:35,883 --> 00:35:39,428 and these seals that go cyclical but also have a trajectory to the end. 746 00:35:39,428 --> 00:35:41,681 You're like, wow. You know, that's interesting. 747 00:35:41,681 --> 00:35:43,850 That's intriguing. But it's also complicated. 748 00:35:43,850 --> 00:35:47,353 One of the anchor points to keep us grounded as we try to read 749 00:35:47,353 --> 00:35:49,105 the rest of the book is the seven letters, 750 00:35:49,105 --> 00:35:53,025 because they help us to say, how are we supposed to apply this imagery? 751 00:35:53,025 --> 00:35:54,735 What is the most important kind of thing? 752 00:35:54,735 --> 00:35:56,070 What matters? 753 00:35:56,070 --> 00:36:00,074 And I think, you know, this is the lens, you know, that makes sense. 754 00:36:00,700 --> 00:36:01,200 Yeah. That 755 00:36:02,243 --> 00:36:05,204 this feels like such a, 756 00:36:05,204 --> 00:36:08,624 immediately actionable way of reading Revelation 757 00:36:08,624 --> 00:36:11,627 as in you don't need to do all kinds of fancy research and stuff. 758 00:36:11,627 --> 00:36:14,630 You can just pick up Revelation and, and start looking 759 00:36:15,131 --> 00:36:18,509 through that lens and immediately start seeing this stuff. 760 00:36:19,302 --> 00:36:20,720 And, and there's oh wow. 761 00:36:20,720 --> 00:36:21,637 Like you're talking again. 762 00:36:21,637 --> 00:36:24,140 Start to peel back the layers. Yeah. 763 00:36:24,140 --> 00:36:28,394 And also try to, to remove a lot of the extrabiblical layers 764 00:36:28,394 --> 00:36:29,270 that have been piled on top 765 00:36:29,270 --> 00:36:32,523 from our culture and worldview and our biases and all of these things. 766 00:36:32,523 --> 00:36:36,110 It's just gotten kind of snowed under, you know, by that. 767 00:36:36,903 --> 00:36:39,906 Wow. So that that was the lens. 768 00:36:40,114 --> 00:36:42,200 And then there's another piece you want to. Yeah. 769 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:44,160 I don't want to. Yeah. I don't want to spend. 770 00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:47,246 So the other two pieces, the one is the ending, the new 771 00:36:47,288 --> 00:36:52,210 the vision of new creation, chapters 21 and 22 that puts the whole Bible together. 772 00:36:52,210 --> 00:36:55,421 It brings in imagery of temple and Eden and marriage, 773 00:36:55,630 --> 00:36:57,965 and it's like, weaves it all together to the end of the story. 774 00:36:59,091 --> 00:37:00,176 And we have a 775 00:37:00,176 --> 00:37:03,971 we we are doing a whole nother episode on specifically that. 776 00:37:03,971 --> 00:37:04,513 Right. 777 00:37:04,513 --> 00:37:07,516 But that's if the letters to the churches are a lens, 778 00:37:08,017 --> 00:37:11,354 then the ending kind of grounds you at the end of the book, right, to say, 779 00:37:11,354 --> 00:37:15,399 okay, the story may do all these strange movements, 780 00:37:15,399 --> 00:37:18,402 but we end here and that's that's a grounding place. 781 00:37:18,611 --> 00:37:22,323 There's one more in the middle, Revelation chapter 12. 782 00:37:22,698 --> 00:37:25,743 And we could do a whole episode on this, 783 00:37:25,993 --> 00:37:28,955 but it's the story of the woman and the dragon. 784 00:37:29,455 --> 00:37:30,248 Oh, yeah. 785 00:37:30,248 --> 00:37:34,585 Well, that's this is a again I mean, again, Revelation is a little bit wild. 786 00:37:34,919 --> 00:37:37,838 This is also bizarre. 787 00:37:37,838 --> 00:37:41,676 Or I say that lovingly, but, like, it's just, you know, it's just like. 788 00:37:42,134 --> 00:37:44,345 Whoa. 789 00:37:44,345 --> 00:37:45,554 It's hard to get our heads around all of this. 790 00:37:45,554 --> 00:37:47,223 Yeah. 791 00:37:47,223 --> 00:37:49,892 But what's happening here is, in a sense, right 792 00:37:49,892 --> 00:37:52,103 smack in the middle of the of the book. 793 00:37:52,103 --> 00:37:55,106 It's kind of like a pause and we say, hey, this chapter 794 00:37:55,439 --> 00:37:59,318 kind of gives you a little separate perspective 795 00:37:59,318 --> 00:38:05,032 on this whole era of redemptive history, from Jesus first coming to his second. 796 00:38:05,199 --> 00:38:09,036 And that gives you another little lens, a, to help you understand 797 00:38:09,036 --> 00:38:12,623 what's happening in the previous chapters and in those succeeding, 798 00:38:12,623 --> 00:38:13,499 succeeding chapters. 799 00:38:14,667 --> 00:38:15,543 So it's not supposed 800 00:38:15,543 --> 00:38:18,587 to be like, Then this is again, it's not sequential. 801 00:38:18,587 --> 00:38:20,631 This is like it's kind of the center point. 802 00:38:20,631 --> 00:38:25,261 You're like, okay, I need to zoom out again and see, get a, 803 00:38:25,886 --> 00:38:28,806 get a full perspective on this and so we have right in the middle, 804 00:38:28,806 --> 00:38:31,809 just as you're starting to get really confused, this story 805 00:38:32,018 --> 00:38:35,062 to say, okay, just remember this is sort of the big 806 00:38:35,354 --> 00:38:38,816 the big meta story I'm trying to tell, John is trying to tell you. 807 00:38:39,275 --> 00:38:43,863 And it's the story of this woman, she has stars over her head. 808 00:38:43,863 --> 00:38:45,948 She's apparently a very she's she's a rule. 809 00:38:45,948 --> 00:38:47,742 She's ruling. She's pregnant. 810 00:38:47,742 --> 00:38:50,745 She's crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth. 811 00:38:51,662 --> 00:38:56,083 And then there's a dragon, and he stands before the woman so that, 812 00:38:56,584 --> 00:38:59,086 when she bears her child, he might devour it. 813 00:38:59,086 --> 00:39:02,006 And she gives birth to a male child who is to rule all the nations 814 00:39:02,006 --> 00:39:03,883 with a rod of iron. This is Psalm two again. 815 00:39:05,259 --> 00:39:08,262 And her child is caught up to God into his throne. 816 00:39:08,471 --> 00:39:11,015 Who is this woman? 817 00:39:11,015 --> 00:39:13,142 Because, 818 00:39:13,142 --> 00:39:15,019 it's it's a little confusing. 819 00:39:15,019 --> 00:39:17,730 Then she, 820 00:39:17,730 --> 00:39:21,901 the woman flees into the wilderness where she is kept, 821 00:39:21,901 --> 00:39:26,364 preserved by God for this whole time, this whole era of tribulation. 822 00:39:26,364 --> 00:39:29,367 Until Jesus returns, symbolizing in the 1260 days. 823 00:39:30,117 --> 00:39:34,038 And then the camera zooms to, goes back to her, goes to heaven, and says, 824 00:39:34,038 --> 00:39:36,248 and from heaven's perspective, there was Michael 825 00:39:36,248 --> 00:39:37,792 and the angels fighting against the dragon. 826 00:39:37,792 --> 00:39:39,627 The dragon gets kicked out. 827 00:39:39,627 --> 00:39:41,212 Why is Dragon get kicked out? 828 00:39:41,212 --> 00:39:43,714 Well, because of what had just happened with 829 00:39:43,714 --> 00:39:45,549 this child that was born to the woman. 830 00:39:45,549 --> 00:39:47,468 Jesus. Right. 831 00:39:47,468 --> 00:39:48,969 So he gets kicked out. 832 00:39:48,969 --> 00:39:52,515 And the dragon sees that he'd been. 833 00:39:52,515 --> 00:39:53,557 When the dragon saw that 834 00:39:53,557 --> 00:39:55,810 he'd been thrown to the earth, he pursued the woman 835 00:39:55,810 --> 00:39:57,478 that had given birth to the male child. 836 00:39:57,478 --> 00:39:59,980 So he realizes his time is short because, 837 00:40:01,690 --> 00:40:02,400 the salvation 838 00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:05,694 and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Messiah has come. 839 00:40:06,153 --> 00:40:08,155 The accuser of the brothers has been thrown down. 840 00:40:08,155 --> 00:40:10,950 He's been conquered by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony. 841 00:40:10,950 --> 00:40:13,953 Jesus has triumphed through his death and resurrection. 842 00:40:14,328 --> 00:40:17,331 So the devil has been, the dragon is kicked down to earth, 843 00:40:17,790 --> 00:40:19,417 but he's not destroyed yet. 844 00:40:19,417 --> 00:40:21,001 He realizes his time is short. 845 00:40:21,001 --> 00:40:22,169 And so what does he do? 846 00:40:22,169 --> 00:40:25,881 He pursues the woman, but the woman is is, 847 00:40:26,465 --> 00:40:30,553 is kept preserved by God for this whole length, duration of time. 848 00:40:30,553 --> 00:40:33,305 That the devil that the dragon has left. 849 00:40:33,305 --> 00:40:37,351 And then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war 850 00:40:37,351 --> 00:40:38,644 on the rest of her offspring, on 851 00:40:38,644 --> 00:40:41,647 those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. 852 00:40:42,064 --> 00:40:45,067 And he stood on the sand of the sea, you know, like why? 853 00:40:45,276 --> 00:40:45,985 Well, the next verse 854 00:40:45,985 --> 00:40:49,947 says, I saw a beast rising out of the sea with ten horns and seven heads. 855 00:40:49,947 --> 00:40:52,575 So what is the what is this dragon do? 856 00:40:52,575 --> 00:40:55,244 He realizes bummer. 857 00:40:55,244 --> 00:40:57,121 The the the son. 858 00:40:57,121 --> 00:41:02,501 Jesus the Messiah has been born, has died, has risen from the dead. 859 00:41:03,711 --> 00:41:05,671 I'm kicked out of my. 860 00:41:05,671 --> 00:41:08,674 The accuser of the brethren has been thrown out. 861 00:41:08,883 --> 00:41:14,513 The authority of Jesus has, you know has has come I my time is short. 862 00:41:14,722 --> 00:41:15,806 What am I going to do with that? 863 00:41:15,806 --> 00:41:18,809 I'm going to spend the rest of my short time 864 00:41:19,018 --> 00:41:22,396 in making war on the rest of the offspring of the woman, 865 00:41:22,938 --> 00:41:25,566 which John says is those who keep the commands of God, 866 00:41:25,566 --> 00:41:28,986 and the next thing he does is go in and create this beast. 867 00:41:28,986 --> 00:41:30,654 The beast. Right. 868 00:41:30,654 --> 00:41:34,158 That is what that's his, that's his plan 869 00:41:34,158 --> 00:41:37,161 for the rest of the time, he has left is to, 870 00:41:38,078 --> 00:41:41,499 is to to generate these beasts out of the sea and the land 871 00:41:41,790 --> 00:41:45,419 that are going to persecute, the seed of the woman. 872 00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:48,422 The rest of of the disciples of Jesus. 873 00:41:49,965 --> 00:41:52,468 So it's a very it's very it's a lot, but it's very simple. 874 00:41:52,468 --> 00:41:55,471 When you when it comes down to it, it's just I mean, it's saying, 875 00:41:56,722 --> 00:41:59,475 Jesus came into the world. 876 00:41:59,475 --> 00:42:01,268 He died and rose again. 877 00:42:01,268 --> 00:42:03,229 He’s seated at the right hand of of God. 878 00:42:03,229 --> 00:42:05,022 All authority is given to him. 879 00:42:05,022 --> 00:42:08,484 The accuser of the brethren is is booted, but he's not destroyed yet. 880 00:42:08,901 --> 00:42:12,321 And he's very angry, and he's going to spend all the rest of his time, 881 00:42:13,072 --> 00:42:16,450 on, on, on, trying to 882 00:42:17,535 --> 00:42:20,538 make trying to make war on all the rest of Jesus’ people. 883 00:42:20,871 --> 00:42:24,166 Wow. And that sets up for the whole kind 884 00:42:24,166 --> 00:42:26,877 of the rest of Revelation with all these beasts and all this stuff. 885 00:42:26,877 --> 00:42:30,381 So when we read about all these crazy beasts, we're supposed to go back to this 886 00:42:30,589 --> 00:42:36,428 chapter 12 and say, what this means is the Dragon devil is very mad, 887 00:42:37,388 --> 00:42:37,763 and he's going 888 00:42:37,763 --> 00:42:40,724 to spend because he knows Jesus has. 889 00:42:40,724 --> 00:42:43,727 Jesus is sitting at the throne on the throne of God. 890 00:42:44,019 --> 00:42:46,313 And, he's very angry. 891 00:42:46,313 --> 00:42:48,899 And so he's going to spend the rest of his days, 892 00:42:48,899 --> 00:42:52,152 which he knows are numbered, trying to make war on us. 893 00:42:52,570 --> 00:42:53,362 It's. 894 00:42:53,362 --> 00:42:56,865 And that's the whole that's again in the middle of the book, this lens that 895 00:42:56,865 --> 00:43:01,328 we're supposed to read, all these beasts and all this crazy stuff through. 896 00:43:02,329 --> 00:43:03,080 Okay, so. 897 00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:05,708 So we had what you were saying, the lens at the beginning, 898 00:43:05,708 --> 00:43:07,626 which is the letters to the seven churches. 899 00:43:07,626 --> 00:43:10,212 And then you're calling this an anchor point. An anchor point. 900 00:43:10,212 --> 00:43:13,924 So like, this is a spot in the middle to kind of peg some things to essentially. 901 00:43:13,966 --> 00:43:14,717 Yeah. 902 00:43:14,717 --> 00:43:18,679 Do you want to tear into that a bit of like how how exactly are you 903 00:43:18,804 --> 00:43:21,307 or are we thinking of this as an as an anchor? 904 00:43:21,307 --> 00:43:21,640 Yeah. 905 00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:26,812 Well, because, so before this you have two cycles of, of judgments. 906 00:43:26,812 --> 00:43:30,190 You got the, the trumpets and the seals and you say, okay, good. 907 00:43:30,190 --> 00:43:33,444 So we've got these, these judgments and that seem to culminate in 908 00:43:34,153 --> 00:43:34,903 the kingdom coming. 909 00:43:34,903 --> 00:43:37,197 And then the another cycle happens. 910 00:43:37,197 --> 00:43:41,535 And then after chapter 12, we've got these beasts that arise and, 911 00:43:42,453 --> 00:43:45,414 these two beasts and then we've got the seven bowls 912 00:43:45,414 --> 00:43:48,917 of God's wrath and like, wow, okay, I need a little help. 913 00:43:48,917 --> 00:43:53,422 And then we have the prostitute and the Fall of Babylon 914 00:43:53,422 --> 00:43:56,508 and all this stuff, and right in the middle, you're saying, okay, 915 00:43:57,259 --> 00:44:00,262 this whole progression, this cyclical progression 916 00:44:00,304 --> 00:44:03,307 that we see the rest of Revelation kind of spinning out, 917 00:44:04,433 --> 00:44:05,934 just remember pause. 918 00:44:05,934 --> 00:44:10,064 You know, not a commercial break, but pause and and remember, just 919 00:44:11,065 --> 00:44:14,068 do you remember this story from Genesis three, this 920 00:44:14,318 --> 00:44:18,739 not story, this one little verse in Genesis three, when, Adam and Eve sin 921 00:44:19,156 --> 00:44:23,702 and God says that the seed of the woman, will, will 922 00:44:24,828 --> 00:44:28,666 there will be enmity between, the serpent and the woman, your seed and her seed 923 00:44:29,166 --> 00:44:32,169 and the seed of the woman will crush the head of the serpent. 924 00:44:33,629 --> 00:44:34,588 And such. 925 00:44:34,588 --> 00:44:36,924 Remember that. Well, 926 00:44:36,924 --> 00:44:39,885 let's let's let's picture 927 00:44:40,010 --> 00:44:45,182 let's remember that this whole saga of beasts and harlots 928 00:44:45,182 --> 00:44:50,145 and all this stuff that we're telling is, a fleshing out of Genesis 3:15. 929 00:44:51,230 --> 00:44:54,233 This woman is represents, 930 00:44:55,609 --> 00:44:56,568 that prophecy, right? 931 00:44:56,568 --> 00:44:57,569 The seed of the woman. 932 00:44:57,569 --> 00:45:00,864 That's why there's this woman who's giving birth to a a male child. 933 00:45:01,156 --> 00:45:04,702 And the dragon is called the ancient serpent, 934 00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:08,163 who is called the devil and Satan because it's it's taking you back to 935 00:45:08,163 --> 00:45:08,789 the serpent, right? 936 00:45:08,789 --> 00:45:14,169 And saying all this, all this stuff about beasts and overcoming 937 00:45:14,169 --> 00:45:17,589 and destroying Christians, and then eventually they'll conquer. 938 00:45:17,881 --> 00:45:20,884 That's just a fleshing out of, 939 00:45:21,301 --> 00:45:25,681 what the what the serpent is trying to do now. 940 00:45:28,267 --> 00:45:29,268 After the seed of the 941 00:45:29,268 --> 00:45:32,730 woman has dealt him sort of the fatal blow to the head. 942 00:45:33,063 --> 00:45:34,857 Right. 943 00:45:34,857 --> 00:45:36,734 But his his time is his. 944 00:45:36,734 --> 00:45:39,069 He still has some time to wreak havoc. 945 00:45:39,069 --> 00:45:43,240 And so just remember that little verse, Genesis 3:15. 946 00:45:44,825 --> 00:45:48,328 The seed of the woman has come has crushed the head of the serpent, 947 00:45:48,912 --> 00:45:52,833 but he still in the throes of he's not quite he still has some time. 948 00:45:53,250 --> 00:45:57,421 And so all the rest of these things about beasts and whatever that we're, 949 00:45:57,421 --> 00:46:03,218 that John's going to be talking about, it's an unpacking of that simple, 950 00:46:03,218 --> 00:46:08,140 that simple idea, that simple, big meta story, that the woman. 951 00:46:08,140 --> 00:46:08,432 Right. 952 00:46:08,432 --> 00:46:11,435 The people of God, whatever Jesus came from, 953 00:46:11,435 --> 00:46:14,229 Jesus was born into into the people of Israel. 954 00:46:14,229 --> 00:46:15,981 Right? 955 00:46:15,981 --> 00:46:18,150 He has conquered and, 956 00:46:19,151 --> 00:46:22,112 he sits on the throne in heaven. 957 00:46:22,154 --> 00:46:25,157 The devil has been thrown down in a very angry state, 958 00:46:25,157 --> 00:46:28,160 and the rest of the rest of 959 00:46:28,869 --> 00:46:30,537 his whole time, that's short. 960 00:46:30,537 --> 00:46:33,665 His what's on his mind is to make war on the rest of her offspring. 961 00:46:34,750 --> 00:46:38,545 It's not talking about one specific certain number of years in the future. 962 00:46:39,463 --> 00:46:42,466 It's talking about all the years that the dragon has left 963 00:46:42,758 --> 00:46:46,929 from the time he's booted out of heaven, Jesus ascension or whatever. 964 00:46:46,929 --> 00:46:49,681 I mean, symbolically, right, 965 00:46:49,681 --> 00:46:52,518 to Jesus return and his getting thrown into the lake of fire 966 00:46:52,518 --> 00:46:57,189 that characterizes the whole, you know, this this is what the dragon is up to 967 00:46:57,189 --> 00:47:01,401 for this whole time period between Jesus first coming and his second coming. 968 00:47:02,194 --> 00:47:05,823 That's what’s, I think, really key because when we read the rest of it, 969 00:47:05,823 --> 00:47:08,325 then we're not saying, when is this going to happen? 970 00:47:08,325 --> 00:47:11,703 Is this like a certain three and a half years or seven years in the future? 971 00:47:11,954 --> 00:47:12,663 We say, no. 972 00:47:12,663 --> 00:47:15,707 Genesis two, I mean, Revelation 12 told us, 973 00:47:16,041 --> 00:47:19,044 this is what the dragon is up to for this whole time 974 00:47:19,044 --> 00:47:21,380 since he got booted out of heaven. Right? 975 00:47:21,380 --> 00:47:22,339 Symbolically, of course. 976 00:47:22,339 --> 00:47:24,591 And, you know, since since Jesus, 977 00:47:25,884 --> 00:47:28,554 since all power, all authority has been given to Jesus, right? 978 00:47:28,554 --> 00:47:32,349 He, you know, his whole this whole entire 979 00:47:32,349 --> 00:47:36,436 era is the is this 1,260 days or times, times in a 980 00:47:36,979 --> 00:47:41,525 and a half a time of the devil, the dragon being very mad. So. 981 00:47:41,775 --> 00:47:44,778 So again, it takes us away from saying, 982 00:47:44,862 --> 00:47:47,072 okay, which when is this specific thing going to happen? 983 00:47:47,072 --> 00:47:48,407 When is this specific thing going to happen? 984 00:47:48,407 --> 00:47:51,577 Is this something far in the future to saying, no, no, it's 985 00:47:51,577 --> 00:47:54,830 an Revelation 12 is an anchor point, because it reminds us 986 00:47:55,664 --> 00:47:57,833 this story of, 987 00:47:57,833 --> 00:48:00,252 the seed of the woman overcoming the dragon 988 00:48:00,252 --> 00:48:03,255 and then the dragon getting very angry for the rest of his days. 989 00:48:03,297 --> 00:48:07,634 That's that is the story of where we're living right now 990 00:48:08,010 --> 00:48:10,762 and where we will be living until Jesus 991 00:48:10,762 --> 00:48:13,765 returns to cast the dragon into the lake of fire. 992 00:48:13,932 --> 00:48:17,978 And that really fits with this whole theme of to him who overcomes, right, 993 00:48:18,186 --> 00:48:21,607 which is like the one of the big threads going through all of this. 994 00:48:21,607 --> 00:48:22,608 Yeah. 995 00:48:22,608 --> 00:48:25,777 Which which would kind of, you would kind of lose that 996 00:48:25,777 --> 00:48:26,570 if you were saying, oh, 997 00:48:26,570 --> 00:48:29,573 this is something that's going to happen at some point in the future. 998 00:48:29,781 --> 00:48:32,576 You kind of you kind of lose some some of the story there, don’t you? 999 00:48:32,576 --> 00:48:33,452 Yeah, exactly. 1000 00:48:33,452 --> 00:48:34,786 And I just think Revelation 1001 00:48:34,786 --> 00:48:37,789 12 doesn't allow you to go there because it kind of makes it helps. 1002 00:48:37,789 --> 00:48:41,460 It grounds us by making it pretty explicit that all this stuff about beasts 1003 00:48:42,002 --> 00:48:45,714 is not just something in the future, but it's the whole program of the dragon. 1004 00:48:46,048 --> 00:48:49,593 While he's very angry that Jesus rose from the dead, right? 1005 00:48:50,093 --> 00:48:53,430 So that's so interesting, though, because I know, like a lot of people 1006 00:48:53,430 --> 00:48:56,433 are going to disagree with that because they're going to push this into 1007 00:48:56,600 --> 00:48:58,644 an era out there somewhere, you know? 1008 00:48:58,644 --> 00:49:00,520 Yeah, I think it's hard to do that when you 1009 00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:05,359 when you read Revelation 12 and say, it seems to be trying to set up 1010 00:49:05,359 --> 00:49:08,362 for all the stuff that the dragon is doing. 1011 00:49:08,528 --> 00:49:10,614 Yeah, yeah, that that makes a lot of sense. 1012 00:49:10,614 --> 00:49:12,115 Yeah, so we kind of had 1013 00:49:12,115 --> 00:49:15,494 we got the lens that we started with and that anchor point in the middle. 1014 00:49:15,494 --> 00:49:19,039 Right with, with the, with the beast and, and the dragon 1015 00:49:19,331 --> 00:49:22,042 and then and of course, the whole ending thing, which 1016 00:49:22,042 --> 00:49:25,045 there's a, there's a whole package there at the ending, you know, with the, 1017 00:49:25,045 --> 00:49:26,964 the temple and Eden themes. 1018 00:49:26,964 --> 00:49:28,507 And again, got a whole episode on that 1019 00:49:28,507 --> 00:49:30,842 that either has come out or is going to come out soon. 1020 00:49:30,842 --> 00:49:31,843 we just like Revelation. 1021 00:49:31,843 --> 00:49:34,846 Our timing can be a little cyclical or whatever. 1022 00:49:35,097 --> 00:49:35,263 Yeah. 1023 00:49:35,263 --> 00:49:37,849 We're still we don't know doesn't matter. 1024 00:49:37,849 --> 00:49:41,019 But that that's that again is kind of like we're tracing some arcs through, 1025 00:49:41,103 --> 00:49:41,728 through the book 1026 00:49:41,728 --> 00:49:45,607 that that hopefully will be some frameworks that will be helpful for people 1027 00:49:45,607 --> 00:49:46,775 as they dig into this. 1028 00:49:46,775 --> 00:49:48,110 I think that's kind of the hope 1029 00:49:48,110 --> 00:49:50,320 with with these episodes that we've been doing on Revelation. 1030 00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:52,322 For one thing, a lot of people ask that we do them, 1031 00:49:52,322 --> 00:49:57,536 but the other is that people actually will go to this book and read it again, 1032 00:49:57,744 --> 00:50:00,914 and hopefully with, with some, some helpful frameworks, and they can pull 1033 00:50:00,914 --> 00:50:04,292 some pieces out and say, oh, wow, that I should pay attention to that. 1034 00:50:04,292 --> 00:50:06,461 Yeah. You know, that matters. That's important. 1035 00:50:06,461 --> 00:50:09,297 Is there anything else you want to add to this as as we, 1036 00:50:09,297 --> 00:50:11,174 bringing the package to a close. 1037 00:50:11,174 --> 00:50:11,967 I don’t think so. 1038 00:50:11,967 --> 00:50:16,221 So these are just three, well two, the lens read the read 1039 00:50:16,221 --> 00:50:19,766 the imagery of the book through the lens of the seven letters to the churches, 1040 00:50:20,392 --> 00:50:21,476 an anchor point in the middle. 1041 00:50:21,476 --> 00:50:25,731 Remember that all the stuff about the drag, the beasts and whatnot, 1042 00:50:26,606 --> 00:50:30,736 is not just something to speculate about the future, but it's at Revelation 1043 00:50:30,736 --> 00:50:35,365 12, the story of the seed of the woman and, you know, conquering the serpent. 1044 00:50:35,907 --> 00:50:39,494 It's telling us all of this stuff about beasts and false prophets and stuff. 1045 00:50:39,786 --> 00:50:45,208 This is all what the dragon is doing in this whole entire time, that he's 1046 00:50:45,542 --> 00:50:48,545 knows he's been conquered, but hasn't yet been thrown into the lake of fire. 1047 00:50:48,587 --> 00:50:49,671 Yeah. 1048 00:50:49,671 --> 00:50:51,840 So that that just grounds us in the middle. 1049 00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:56,053 And then in our other episode, the thing that helps us at the end of the book 1050 00:50:56,053 --> 00:51:01,808 is, is the final way that, the last vision of the New Jerusalem, new creation, 1051 00:51:03,101 --> 00:51:05,437 weaves ties together the whole story of the Bible. 1052 00:51:05,437 --> 00:51:06,438 Yeah. 1053 00:51:06,438 --> 00:51:07,856 Wow. That's powerful. 1054 00:51:07,856 --> 00:51:09,608 This is, this is a lot. 1055 00:51:09,608 --> 00:51:12,611 This is what I'm really hoping this will. 1056 00:51:12,611 --> 00:51:12,944 Yeah. 1057 00:51:12,944 --> 00:51:15,447 Encourage people to to engage with this text. 1058 00:51:15,447 --> 00:51:15,822 Again, 1059 00:51:15,822 --> 00:51:18,825 I just want to thank you for all the time you put into developing this material. 1060 00:51:18,825 --> 00:51:20,535 I'm sure you know, it's a decent amount of work. 1061 00:51:20,535 --> 00:51:23,080 And, I appreciate you coming on and sharing today. 1062 00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:23,872 Thanks! 1063 00:51:25,123 --> 00:51:27,918 Thanks for listening to this episode with Paul Lamicela on 1064 00:51:28,210 --> 00:51:31,213 the lens anchor and ending of the Book of Revelation. 1065 00:51:31,213 --> 00:51:34,174 We've done several other episodes with Paul on this topic 1066 00:51:34,174 --> 00:51:35,467 about the Book of Revelation, 1067 00:51:35,467 --> 00:51:38,470 and you can find those linked in the description down below. 1068 00:51:38,512 --> 00:51:41,181 Of course, all our content is available on our website 1069 00:51:41,181 --> 00:51:44,559 at anabaptistperspectives.org, and we also have a monthly 1070 00:51:44,559 --> 00:51:47,562 email newsletter you can sign up for on the website. 1071 00:51:47,562 --> 00:51:50,440 Thanks again, and we'll see you in the next episode.