And so let's say
you were the church at Pergamum, right?
2
00:00:04,045 --> 00:00:09,175
And you get this, and you, you pay
special attention to your letter, right?
3
00:00:09,175 --> 00:00:11,970
You're like, whoa,
this is a letter from Jesus.
4
00:00:12,679 --> 00:00:13,471
And then you
5
00:00:13,471 --> 00:00:16,641
read the rest of the book
with your letter in mind.
6
00:00:17,517 --> 00:00:20,186
And when you see stuff,
you're going to see lots of stuff
7
00:00:20,186 --> 00:00:23,940
in the rest of the book of Revelation
that points back to your letter.
8
00:00:24,649 --> 00:00:26,609
And when you see that, you can like,
oh, wow.
9
00:00:26,609 --> 00:00:28,611
Yeah. Ouch.
10
00:00:28,611 --> 00:00:32,198
You know, you feel convicted again
or you feel like, comforted again
11
00:00:32,198 --> 00:00:32,907
or whatever.
12
00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:40,206
Well, Paul Lamicela,
13
00:00:40,206 --> 00:00:43,543
welcome back
to the Anabaptist Perspectives podcast.
14
00:00:44,085 --> 00:00:47,338
We've done a number of episodes
on the Book of Revelation.
15
00:00:47,881 --> 00:00:49,883
Some of them are probably out by now,
and we're not quite sure
16
00:00:49,883 --> 00:00:54,596
what the order will be, but this is one
where we're going to take a step back
17
00:00:54,596 --> 00:00:58,141
and give us some frameworks
to better understand this.
18
00:00:59,350 --> 00:01:01,352
Somewhat confusing and complicated book.
19
00:01:01,352 --> 00:01:03,855
we're going to link
to some of the previous ones down below.
20
00:01:03,855 --> 00:01:07,525
If you want more context, but,
let's just jump right in.
21
00:01:08,610 --> 00:01:11,112
And give us give us some,
give us some context to work with.
22
00:01:11,112 --> 00:01:13,865
I think you have some frameworks that
that we're going to start with here. Yeah.
23
00:01:13,865 --> 00:01:16,993
So in the episode that we released
a few months back,
24
00:01:17,869 --> 00:01:20,747
on Revelation,
we talked, did some big picture like
25
00:01:20,747 --> 00:01:22,874
how to read Revelation in terms of it’s
genre.
26
00:01:22,874 --> 00:01:25,877
We talked about apocalyptic literature
and stuff like that.
27
00:01:26,211 --> 00:01:29,089
And that's really foundational,
I think, to reading Revelation.
28
00:01:29,089 --> 00:01:32,342
But, there's three other pieces,
29
00:01:32,592 --> 00:01:36,846
like not so much theoretical frameworks,
but more three parts
30
00:01:36,846 --> 00:01:39,849
of the book of Revelation itself
that I think can help to anchor us,
31
00:01:41,017 --> 00:01:43,061
as we read what is a swirling
32
00:01:43,061 --> 00:01:46,564
and sometimes, well,
always complicated book.
33
00:01:48,066 --> 00:01:51,528
And so I just want to talk about,
what I think is
34
00:01:51,653 --> 00:01:55,532
a good lens to read Revelation through,
which is the letters to the churches.
35
00:01:55,865 --> 00:01:58,743
And then, a story
right in the smack in the center
36
00:01:58,743 --> 00:02:01,538
that's I think
can help us as a good anchor point
37
00:02:01,538 --> 00:02:04,707
to as we're getting confused
and go back to that in the middle and say,
38
00:02:04,874 --> 00:02:07,502
this is grounding all the swirling stuff.
39
00:02:07,502 --> 00:02:10,296
And then, and then the way the book ends.
40
00:02:10,296 --> 00:02:13,299
One of the things that makes it
tricky Revelation tricky,
41
00:02:13,716 --> 00:02:17,220
is that as, as, many scholars
now recognize,
42
00:02:17,804 --> 00:02:20,765
the Book of Revelation
isn't a fully sequential.
43
00:02:20,765 --> 00:02:24,769
It's not just a linear or sort of
this happened after this happens.
44
00:02:24,769 --> 00:02:27,772
After this happens, scheme it is.
45
00:02:27,814 --> 00:02:30,066
There is a general trajectory to the book.
46
00:02:31,526 --> 00:02:34,779
So obviously the book
ends with new heavens and new earth and a
47
00:02:35,029 --> 00:02:38,032
and final final judgment,
lake a fire, whatever.
48
00:02:38,032 --> 00:02:40,994
And it has to go that, you know, there's a
there's a progression.
49
00:02:40,994 --> 00:02:43,955
But at the same time, it's also recursive.
50
00:02:44,372 --> 00:02:48,209
what I mean is like some of the judgments,
some of the scenes
51
00:02:48,626 --> 00:02:51,421
in an earlier part of Revelation are then
52
00:02:51,421 --> 00:02:54,424
kind of repeated in a different way
later in the book.
53
00:02:54,966 --> 00:02:58,928
And so for some, some people have,
it can be kind of confusing.
54
00:02:58,928 --> 00:03:02,348
You see scenes throughout the book
that look like
55
00:03:02,348 --> 00:03:05,768
this is the final culmination
of all things, and everyone's
56
00:03:05,768 --> 00:03:09,230
rejoicing in front of God and the lamb,
and the kingdom has come.
57
00:03:09,397 --> 00:03:12,066
And then the next chapter is like,
and then we start this new,
58
00:03:12,066 --> 00:03:13,902
these new judgments. You're like, oh,
I thought the book.
59
00:03:13,902 --> 00:03:17,989
I thought, right,
but that's because, there's some there's
60
00:03:17,989 --> 00:03:21,910
there's a cyclical nature to the book
as well as a, a trajectory.
61
00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:27,916
It's a style of communicating
that's like giving us extra reinforcement
62
00:03:27,916 --> 00:03:29,709
and then coming back around
and then like okay
63
00:03:29,709 --> 00:03:32,420
this again from another angle
I guess yeah. Basically.
64
00:03:32,420 --> 00:03:36,007
And and you know, we see things like this
happen in the Old Testament prophets.
65
00:03:36,132 --> 00:03:37,008
Yeah.
66
00:03:37,008 --> 00:03:40,970
And actually I think a great example of
this is the first epistle of John.
67
00:03:41,429 --> 00:03:43,139
Right. Which is a head spinner.
68
00:03:43,139 --> 00:03:46,476
If you try to follow it linearly,
I mean, it's not a story, but it's like,
69
00:03:46,476 --> 00:03:49,479
how do you know, that you know, God.
70
00:03:49,479 --> 00:03:51,439
Well, if you love the brothers and sisters
71
00:03:51,439 --> 00:03:54,025
and this is how we know
we love the brothers and sisters,
72
00:03:54,025 --> 00:03:57,028
if we believe in Jesus and you're like,
okay, all right.
73
00:03:57,028 --> 00:03:58,446
And then how do you know
you believe in Jesus?
74
00:03:58,446 --> 00:04:01,908
Well, if you keep if you keep God's
commandments and what is his commandment?
75
00:04:01,908 --> 00:04:03,534
That you love one another and you're like,
76
00:04:03,534 --> 00:04:05,870
oh, wow, that’s
just like going around in circles.
77
00:04:05,870 --> 00:04:06,663
Right.
78
00:04:06,663 --> 00:04:09,999
But it's meant that way
because it really reinforces
79
00:04:09,999 --> 00:04:12,752
the interconnected nature,
you know, of those things.
80
00:04:12,752 --> 00:04:14,254
And it's a it's a way of writing.
81
00:04:14,254 --> 00:04:16,714
And the Book of Revelation works,
somewhat similarly.
82
00:04:16,714 --> 00:04:20,635
So, for example,
you have these three cycles of judgments.
83
00:04:21,010 --> 00:04:24,222
You have the trumpets,
the bowls and the seals.
84
00:04:24,389 --> 00:04:26,766
Yeah. What is that?
85
00:04:26,766 --> 00:04:30,103
I'm sure we got a lot of questions,
and people are like, what is this?
86
00:04:30,353 --> 00:04:31,104
Yeah. So.
87
00:04:31,104 --> 00:04:34,274
And so it starts out in the early,
88
00:04:36,693 --> 00:04:38,194
in the early
89
00:04:38,194 --> 00:04:42,573
chapters of Revelation with the,
the seals.
90
00:04:42,573 --> 00:04:44,450
Right. Because,
91
00:04:44,450 --> 00:04:47,453
there's this scroll representing
92
00:04:48,037 --> 00:04:52,709
God's purposes for the rest of redemptive
and judging history.
93
00:04:53,167 --> 00:04:55,962
And, only the lamb can open the seals.
94
00:04:55,962 --> 00:04:57,797
And so he does.
95
00:04:57,797 --> 00:05:01,092
And each, as he tears off each seal
to open the scroll,
96
00:05:02,135 --> 00:05:05,763
it represents
one sort of burst of judgment in a sense.
97
00:05:05,763 --> 00:05:06,514
Right.
98
00:05:06,514 --> 00:05:09,976
And these judgments are not,
are not complete.
99
00:05:10,143 --> 00:05:10,476
Right.
100
00:05:10,476 --> 00:05:13,813
So in, in, some examples,
101
00:05:14,897 --> 00:05:17,275
he opens one of the seals and,
102
00:05:17,275 --> 00:05:20,778
you know, a quarter of the,
a quarter of the, the Earth
103
00:05:20,778 --> 00:05:23,072
or the quarter of the sun is, is impacted
or something.
104
00:05:23,072 --> 00:05:27,869
It's representing tribulation, suffering
trouble, but not ultimate judgment.
105
00:05:27,869 --> 00:05:31,789
It's not the whole
the whole sky and sea get blotted out.
106
00:05:31,789 --> 00:05:32,290
Right?
107
00:05:32,290 --> 00:05:34,834
It's it's part of it
because it's using a, it's basically
108
00:05:34,834 --> 00:05:37,837
taking a fraction there
to tell us this essentially.
109
00:05:37,879 --> 00:05:41,049
And I think these different, seals
110
00:05:41,591 --> 00:05:46,346
are symbolic of, the type of judgment,
111
00:05:47,555 --> 00:05:49,474
disasters or whatever that
112
00:05:49,474 --> 00:05:54,645
are, that characterize this entire age
as we wait for the final judgment.
113
00:05:54,645 --> 00:05:58,358
It's like little bursts
of God's displeasure or judgment.
114
00:05:59,067 --> 00:06:01,361
Not final.
115
00:06:01,361 --> 00:06:04,322
But but it's this whole time
of of judgment and,
116
00:06:04,322 --> 00:06:07,658
tribulation, if you want to say that way
from this whole time,
117
00:06:07,658 --> 00:06:11,079
from the destruction of Jerusalem
all the way to Jesus’ Second coming,
118
00:06:12,288 --> 00:06:16,250
but in the sixth seal,
it kind of gets worse, right?
119
00:06:16,250 --> 00:06:20,463
And the whole the moon becomes blood,
the sun gets blotted out
120
00:06:20,755 --> 00:06:24,842
and the sky and the stars all fall
to the earth, and it's like, whoa!
121
00:06:24,842 --> 00:06:26,803
Everything seems to be getting destroyed.
122
00:06:26,803 --> 00:06:29,806
And then the seventh seal,
123
00:06:29,972 --> 00:06:32,934
ends really with,
124
00:06:32,934 --> 00:06:35,770
what seems to be the end, right?
125
00:06:35,770 --> 00:06:40,566
Like right before the Seventh Seal,
you've got, this song that that,
126
00:06:41,734 --> 00:06:44,529
Yeah, the lamb in the midst of them
shall be their shepherd.
127
00:06:44,529 --> 00:06:48,282
but but we're like, we're still in the
kind of the beginning of the book as well.
128
00:06:48,282 --> 00:06:49,909
Like,
you're in Revelation seven reading this
129
00:06:49,909 --> 00:06:51,911
and it's like, well, there's 20 something
chapters.
130
00:06:51,911 --> 00:06:53,621
Hold on.
131
00:06:53,621 --> 00:06:55,123
Oh, yeah. It's very confusing to me. Yeah.
132
00:06:55,123 --> 00:06:57,083
And then the seventh seal opens
and the seventh,
133
00:06:57,083 --> 00:07:00,253
the seventh seal is actually
the launch of the seven trumpets,
134
00:07:00,670 --> 00:07:04,507
which is the next cycle
of similar judgments.
135
00:07:04,966 --> 00:07:05,174
Right.
136
00:07:05,174 --> 00:07:09,095
So he now, the,
the lamb opens the seventh seal
137
00:07:09,429 --> 00:07:12,432
and there’s silence and then,
138
00:07:12,849 --> 00:07:17,353
and such, and then the seven angels
start blowing their, their seven trumpets.
139
00:07:17,645 --> 00:07:20,231
And these trumpets
do a similar thing, right?
140
00:07:20,231 --> 00:07:23,901
The first angel blows his trumpet,
and there's hail and fire and blood.
141
00:07:23,901 --> 00:07:25,319
A third of the earth is burned up.
142
00:07:25,319 --> 00:07:30,158
You're back to just fractions
of of creation being destroyed and things
143
00:07:30,158 --> 00:07:31,325
like that.
144
00:07:31,325 --> 00:07:36,247
But you do notice that it gets
it ramps up a little bit.
145
00:07:36,247 --> 00:07:39,250
It's some of these judgments
seem a bit worse than the seals.
146
00:07:39,459 --> 00:07:40,710
Right.
147
00:07:40,710 --> 00:07:42,336
So it's recursive.
148
00:07:42,336 --> 00:07:44,922
And then the trumpets end with,
149
00:07:46,048 --> 00:07:46,841
the seventh angel
150
00:07:46,841 --> 00:07:50,178
blowing his trumpet,
and there's a loud voice in heaven.
151
00:07:50,178 --> 00:07:52,221
This is chapter 11 saying,
the kingdom of the world
152
00:07:52,221 --> 00:07:53,598
has become the kingdom of our Lord
153
00:07:53,598 --> 00:07:56,601
and his Messiah,
and they shall reign forever and ever.
154
00:07:57,518 --> 00:07:58,478
It seems like, yay!
155
00:07:58,478 --> 00:08:01,314
The kingdom is here, right?
156
00:08:01,314 --> 00:08:04,108
But so sorry,
what chapter or where are we at?
157
00:08:04,108 --> 00:08:06,819
Chapter 11.
158
00:08:06,819 --> 00:08:08,446
It's the end of the trumpet cycle.
159
00:08:08,446 --> 00:08:10,281
Okay.
And just like wait, that sounds familiar.
160
00:08:10,281 --> 00:08:12,825
That sounds like chapter seven
when we were talking about the seals.
161
00:08:12,825 --> 00:08:13,618
Yeah, essentially.
162
00:08:13,618 --> 00:08:14,118
exactly.
163
00:08:14,118 --> 00:08:15,369
Though this is more explicit.
164
00:08:15,369 --> 00:08:18,206
The other one was like, yeah.
165
00:08:18,206 --> 00:08:21,292
And so this is and then you have later on.
166
00:08:21,626 --> 00:08:26,130
So you're like, well, there's two cycles
kind of talking about the same
167
00:08:26,506 --> 00:08:27,423
the judgment.
168
00:08:27,423 --> 00:08:29,800
It's basically tribulation and distress
169
00:08:30,927 --> 00:08:32,595
prefigurations of that judgment
170
00:08:32,595 --> 00:08:36,140
that Jesus talks about final judgment
that Jesus talks about, like Matthew 24.
171
00:08:36,432 --> 00:08:38,559
This will be a time
that's characterized by wars,
172
00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:41,562
rumors of wars, earthquakes, famines,
all sorts of things.
173
00:08:41,812 --> 00:08:46,025
But then that cycle culminates
in a picture of final judgment.
174
00:08:46,359 --> 00:08:47,610
And then there's a new cycle
175
00:08:47,610 --> 00:08:51,364
that goes back and kind of covers
the same thing, but, a bit worse.
176
00:08:51,948 --> 00:08:52,448
Right.
177
00:08:52,448 --> 00:08:56,118
And then that final,
that final culmination
178
00:08:56,786 --> 00:08:59,789
of the seven trumpet cycle
maybe is a bit more,
179
00:09:00,957 --> 00:09:02,625
explicit as well.
180
00:09:02,625 --> 00:09:06,420
And then,
so you're like this, this happening twice.
181
00:09:06,420 --> 00:09:09,840
No, it's it's just a depiction of.
182
00:09:10,132 --> 00:09:13,135
So within each cycle, within the seals,
183
00:09:13,219 --> 00:09:16,305
you see judgment, judgment, judgment,
culminating in final judgment.
184
00:09:16,681 --> 00:09:20,059
And then in the next, in the trumpets,
you see judgment, judgment, judgment,
185
00:09:20,059 --> 00:09:20,851
final judgment.
186
00:09:21,852 --> 00:09:25,273
But if you put those both together,
you also have its own progression, right?
187
00:09:25,273 --> 00:09:29,902
You have judgment
getting worse and culminating.
188
00:09:29,902 --> 00:09:34,156
So within each within the seals,
you have an internal,
189
00:09:35,157 --> 00:09:37,827
trajectory of judgments
and then a culmination.
190
00:09:37,827 --> 00:09:40,871
But then if you zoom out and say, wow,
if I put the seals and the trumpets
191
00:09:40,871 --> 00:09:45,042
together, I see the same progression,
but on a macro scale, right.
192
00:09:45,209 --> 00:09:48,671
Because because the trumpets are worse
than the seals, in a sense.
193
00:09:48,671 --> 00:09:49,297
Right.
194
00:09:49,297 --> 00:09:52,300
These are not meant to be taken
literally as a,
195
00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:54,760
you know,
these seven things are going to happen
196
00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:56,679
and then these seven
things are going to happen.
197
00:09:56,679 --> 00:09:57,763
It's a cycle.
198
00:09:57,763 --> 00:10:00,766
It's a cyclical depiction
of the same basic realities.
199
00:10:01,392 --> 00:10:03,936
And then you have the seven,
200
00:10:03,936 --> 00:10:06,939
bowls at the end, which are the last
201
00:10:07,023 --> 00:10:10,151
and final sort of installation of that,
202
00:10:10,568 --> 00:10:13,404
that same judgment, judgment, judgment,
203
00:10:13,404 --> 00:10:16,073
final judgment, And where does that end?
204
00:10:16,073 --> 00:10:18,993
So we had chapter seven
and then we're in chapter 11.
205
00:10:18,993 --> 00:10:21,621
And then where's this latest, cycle?
206
00:10:21,621 --> 00:10:26,667
I guess you could say, the seven bowls
ends, kind of takes us right to,
207
00:10:27,627 --> 00:10:28,961
chapter 16.
208
00:10:28,961 --> 00:10:31,088
Okay.
209
00:10:31,088 --> 00:10:32,381
Which
210
00:10:32,381 --> 00:10:35,384
is, which announces
the destruction of Babylon.
211
00:10:36,010 --> 00:10:39,847
And then the next chapters
are about the fall of Babylon
212
00:10:40,264 --> 00:10:43,851
and the final, you know,
the final judgment, a new creation.
213
00:10:43,851 --> 00:10:46,020
So it kind of takes us out right there.
214
00:10:46,020 --> 00:10:50,066
So what's confusing about these
is that it's easy to
215
00:10:50,441 --> 00:10:55,154
to want to line up the trumpets,
the bowls and the seals sort of separately
216
00:10:55,154 --> 00:10:58,199
and say, we put these on this,
these are going to happen.
217
00:10:58,199 --> 00:11:00,660
And these years followed by these,
followed by these,
218
00:11:00,660 --> 00:11:03,663
but instead we should say, no,
it's like it's like a spiral
219
00:11:03,871 --> 00:11:07,792
that that goes like this
and like this and like this.
220
00:11:07,958 --> 00:11:10,461
Right? Literarily, yeah. Okay.
221
00:11:10,461 --> 00:11:11,754
I'm starting to see that.
222
00:11:11,754 --> 00:11:15,883
That gives a lot more of a, of
a, almost like an arc through the book
223
00:11:15,966 --> 00:11:19,679
that you could, you could track, not track
with, you know, counting
224
00:11:19,804 --> 00:11:22,098
numbers and dates and figures and things.
225
00:11:22,098 --> 00:11:25,893
It's you're saying it's not intended
to be that way necessarily,
226
00:11:25,893 --> 00:11:30,523
but a literary arc, the literary arc
but also looming or so.
227
00:11:30,564 --> 00:11:31,982
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
228
00:11:32,983 --> 00:11:34,985
That's fascinating though, because
because I'm thinking
229
00:11:34,985 --> 00:11:38,030
about there's other points in Scripture
where, where that happens to.
230
00:11:38,072 --> 00:11:38,364
Right.
231
00:11:38,364 --> 00:11:39,615
Like where you kind of have
232
00:11:39,615 --> 00:11:42,827
maybe one of the prophets like hit it
and then they'll loop back around
233
00:11:42,827 --> 00:11:43,536
and get it again.
234
00:11:43,536 --> 00:11:45,746
From when you were saying at first,
John, is that way. Yeah.
235
00:11:45,746 --> 00:11:47,623
Isaiah likes to do this kind of thing.
236
00:11:47,623 --> 00:11:49,959
Yeah. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
237
00:11:49,959 --> 00:11:54,797
I'm guessing if you were aware
of this style of presenting material,
238
00:11:55,756 --> 00:11:58,843
it probably shows up in a lot of places
and I can see how that could it's
239
00:11:59,301 --> 00:12:02,138
what is this,
a way of reinforcing the material
240
00:12:02,138 --> 00:12:05,683
or helping it be more memorable, or
is it just a style of presenting things?
241
00:12:05,766 --> 00:12:07,560
I think it's a number of things. It's,
242
00:12:08,936 --> 00:12:10,146
you know, we don't ask all of
243
00:12:10,146 --> 00:12:13,357
those questions about genres
that we're familiar with.
244
00:12:14,108 --> 00:12:14,483
Right.
245
00:12:14,483 --> 00:12:17,528
So, like, we could if someone from a,
246
00:12:17,820 --> 00:12:20,781
you know, the 32nd century or whatever
247
00:12:20,781 --> 00:12:23,659
comes back to the 21st century and says,
248
00:12:23,659 --> 00:12:26,454
why do these people what's what's that?
249
00:12:26,454 --> 00:12:28,456
What's up with the way they do sci fi?
250
00:12:28,456 --> 00:12:28,914
Like what?
251
00:12:28,914 --> 00:12:30,124
Sci fi is just strange.
252
00:12:30,124 --> 00:12:32,376
Like,
why do they have these creatures do this?
253
00:12:32,376 --> 00:12:34,545
And you're like, well,
254
00:12:34,545 --> 00:12:35,838
that's the way it is.
255
00:12:35,838 --> 00:12:37,214
Like, it, it it
256
00:12:37,214 --> 00:12:41,594
that's, that's the way it wouldn't be sci
fi if we didn't have whatever.
257
00:12:41,594 --> 00:12:44,138
I, I don't like sci fi, so I don't,
I don't know, but like,
258
00:12:44,138 --> 00:12:45,556
but that's a vivid example.
259
00:12:45,556 --> 00:12:47,641
That's obviously a thing in pop culture.
260
00:12:47,641 --> 00:12:49,769
And it's not like you have to explain it.
261
00:12:49,769 --> 00:12:52,188
It's just you just have known.
262
00:12:52,188 --> 00:12:54,565
People just know
this is what it is, right?
263
00:12:54,565 --> 00:12:57,568
And it produces a real
a real genuine effect, I think.
264
00:12:57,735 --> 00:12:59,403
So there's many reasons for that.
265
00:12:59,403 --> 00:13:03,115
But the tricky thing is that,
and these different judgments,
266
00:13:03,908 --> 00:13:05,326
all connect to the Old Testament.
267
00:13:05,326 --> 00:13:07,119
There's a lot of the plagues of Egypt.
268
00:13:08,245 --> 00:13:08,954
A lot of the
269
00:13:08,954 --> 00:13:12,249
imagery from the plagues of Egypt
is, is here in these judgments.
270
00:13:12,249 --> 00:13:15,085
And it would be fun to get into that.
But we can't,
271
00:13:15,085 --> 00:13:18,547
I mean, well, we could it's
just the episode,
272
00:13:18,547 --> 00:13:22,551
there's so much material here
and just a plug in it for that.
273
00:13:22,551 --> 00:13:25,095
I mean, people keep saying, you know,
you should do a whole series on this.
274
00:13:25,095 --> 00:13:27,640
So, I don't know, maybe one day
this will turn into a whole course
275
00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:29,225
because there's just so much here.
276
00:13:29,225 --> 00:13:32,019
that's one of my goals
is to do a whole course on it someday.
277
00:13:32,019 --> 00:13:32,728
We’ll have to see about that, anyways.
278
00:13:32,728 --> 00:13:34,063
Yeah. But continuing. Yeah.
279
00:13:34,063 --> 00:13:36,398
So anyway, that can all be confusing,
right?
280
00:13:36,398 --> 00:13:39,193
So you go through
and it's like going in spirals. So
281
00:13:40,236 --> 00:13:41,320
these three anchor points.
282
00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:44,031
First the letters to the churches.
283
00:13:44,031 --> 00:13:47,284
These are easy to grasp on to easy to
to keep a handle on.
284
00:13:47,701 --> 00:13:51,580
And these really, really help
are supposed to serve
285
00:13:51,580 --> 00:13:54,542
as the lens by which we read the book.
286
00:13:55,042 --> 00:13:58,462
Because that's how it was to John's
first to Revelations, first readers.
287
00:13:58,462 --> 00:13:59,338
Right.
288
00:13:59,338 --> 00:14:01,715
John sent this book, this book
289
00:14:01,715 --> 00:14:04,844
with these letters, you know,
affixed to the front of the book.
290
00:14:04,844 --> 00:14:06,720
You know,
it's like each each of them have their own
291
00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:08,848
little sticky note at the beginning
of the book of Revelation.
292
00:14:08,848 --> 00:14:10,266
Right.
293
00:14:10,266 --> 00:14:13,352
And so let's say
you were the church at Pergamum, right?
294
00:14:13,853 --> 00:14:18,983
And you get this, and you, you pay
special attention to your letter, right?
295
00:14:18,983 --> 00:14:21,777
You're like, whoa,
this is a letter from Jesus.
296
00:14:24,154 --> 00:14:24,947
And then you
297
00:14:24,947 --> 00:14:28,117
read the rest of the book
with your letter in mind.
298
00:14:28,993 --> 00:14:31,662
And when you see stuff,
you're going to see lots of stuff
299
00:14:31,662 --> 00:14:35,416
in the rest of the book of Revelation
that points back to your letter.
300
00:14:36,125 --> 00:14:38,085
And when you see that, you can like,
oh, wow.
301
00:14:38,085 --> 00:14:40,087
Yeah. Ouch.
302
00:14:40,087 --> 00:14:43,674
You know, you feel convicted again
or you feel like, comforted again
303
00:14:43,674 --> 00:14:48,429
or whatever, and you're always going,
if you keep these letters in mind,
304
00:14:48,846 --> 00:14:51,849
you're always going to front and center.
305
00:14:53,350 --> 00:14:56,228
Sort of keep the main point,
the main point, which is be
306
00:14:56,228 --> 00:14:59,440
one of the ones who conquers
so that you will participate
307
00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:05,070
in new creation and not be thrown
into the Lake of fire type of thing.
308
00:15:05,070 --> 00:15:05,905
Right.
309
00:15:05,905 --> 00:15:08,657
And so I just want to take
a couple of minutes and,
310
00:15:08,657 --> 00:15:13,203
and look at a couple of ways
that the letters
311
00:15:13,829 --> 00:15:17,541
kind of preview some of the imagery
that you see later in the, in the book.
312
00:15:18,125 --> 00:15:18,792
Oh yeah.
313
00:15:18,792 --> 00:15:22,880
That would be really interesting because
they tend to be at least in my experience.
314
00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:24,632
Yeah. It's like,
oh, this section on the letters. Yeah.
315
00:15:24,632 --> 00:15:25,966
That makes sense.
That's easy to understand.
316
00:15:25,966 --> 00:15:27,801
Oh, and then there's all this weird stuff
317
00:15:27,801 --> 00:15:30,596
and then the rest of the book
and we'll look at that separately.
318
00:15:30,596 --> 00:15:32,932
That's always been
at least my own experience
319
00:15:32,932 --> 00:15:34,642
of hearing people
present it more that way.
320
00:15:34,642 --> 00:15:38,437
And that I always just kind of assumed
that's kind of how it works.
321
00:15:38,479 --> 00:15:39,229
Exactly. Yeah.
322
00:15:39,229 --> 00:15:43,025
But there's not there's shouldn't
be such a sharp, such a sharp line.
323
00:15:43,233 --> 00:15:45,069
But it makes sense
because you got to keep in mind
324
00:15:45,069 --> 00:15:48,697
that these,
this is a letter that was sent to churches
325
00:15:48,989 --> 00:15:52,409
very much
like how other epistles and things were.
326
00:15:52,660 --> 00:15:56,705
I feel like I've completely lost
touch of that context actually. Yes.
327
00:15:57,122 --> 00:16:00,793
Like I think like you said,
people tend to almost bifurcate Revelation
328
00:16:00,793 --> 00:16:01,961
and it's like, oh,
329
00:16:01,961 --> 00:16:04,922
the letters to the churches, thank God
this is something we can preach on,
330
00:16:05,297 --> 00:16:07,716
you know, and then the rest of the book
is like, whoa!
331
00:16:07,716 --> 00:16:08,801
Or the other way around.
332
00:16:08,801 --> 00:16:12,096
It's like, wow, we have all our awesome
prophecy charts on the rest of Revelation.
333
00:16:12,513 --> 00:16:15,099
And then the letters to the churches
334
00:16:15,099 --> 00:16:18,435
kind of seems less relevant or people
come up with strange, speculative,
335
00:16:20,020 --> 00:16:22,690
theories on that too, on the letters.
336
00:16:22,690 --> 00:16:26,151
So for example, the,
337
00:16:27,194 --> 00:16:29,947
the church to,
the letter to the church at Ephesus.
338
00:16:29,947 --> 00:16:30,823
Right.
339
00:16:30,823 --> 00:16:34,201
He starts out, I know your works,
your toil, your patient endurance, etc..
340
00:16:34,743 --> 00:16:35,995
And he and he does this.
341
00:16:35,995 --> 00:16:38,163
Jesus gives his whole,
342
00:16:38,163 --> 00:16:39,581
all of his warnings and stuff.
343
00:16:39,581 --> 00:16:41,959
And then at the end of the letter,
he says, he who has an ear,
344
00:16:41,959 --> 00:16:45,462
let him hear what the spirit says
to the churches, to the one who conquers,
345
00:16:45,462 --> 00:16:48,590
I will grant to eat of the tree of life,
which is in the Paradise of God.
346
00:16:49,216 --> 00:16:53,721
And that's not just throwaway language,
because it's at it's Revelation 22.
347
00:16:54,013 --> 00:16:56,890
Yeah.
Where the tree of life shows up again.
348
00:16:56,890 --> 00:17:00,686
That's in the new Jerusalem,
the new creation. And,
349
00:17:02,187 --> 00:17:03,814
that is
350
00:17:03,814 --> 00:17:06,400
that's the final, you know,
that's the final hope, right?
351
00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:09,194
But it's it's right here. Right.
352
00:17:09,194 --> 00:17:11,530
It's in the letter as well.
It's like right at the beginning.
353
00:17:11,530 --> 00:17:13,699
So then you almost have it like
this is where we're starting.
354
00:17:13,699 --> 00:17:16,493
And then at the end of the book
you see the same thing in there. Yeah.
355
00:17:16,493 --> 00:17:19,538
Connecting back and forth to the church
at Ephesus is supposed
356
00:17:19,538 --> 00:17:24,501
to be when it, when it gets to chapter 22
and reads about the tree of life,
357
00:17:24,543 --> 00:17:27,546
they're supposed to say, oh, yeah, Jesus
358
00:17:27,755 --> 00:17:30,299
specifically told us,
359
00:17:30,299 --> 00:17:34,470
reminded us to be someone who overcomes
so that we experienced that vision.
360
00:17:34,511 --> 00:17:35,304
Right.
361
00:17:35,304 --> 00:17:39,349
It's very much taking these visions,
that vision, and personalizing it and
362
00:17:39,349 --> 00:17:40,434
and applying it right.
363
00:17:40,434 --> 00:17:44,313
Because these visions in Revelation
are meant to be practical in a sense,
364
00:17:44,313 --> 00:17:48,192
I don't I'm not a huge fan of that word,
but it's it's they're meant to be applied.
365
00:17:48,192 --> 00:17:49,735
They're not meant to be so speculative
366
00:17:49,735 --> 00:17:52,821
I think that that's a piece
that keeps coming up as we've done
367
00:17:52,821 --> 00:17:55,532
different, different discussions
on Revelation on this podcast.
368
00:17:55,532 --> 00:17:57,409
Again, we'll put all the links down
because I'm not quite
369
00:17:57,409 --> 00:17:58,994
sure what order
we’ll release these in. But,
370
00:18:00,079 --> 00:18:00,496
is the
371
00:18:00,496 --> 00:18:03,749
sense that Revelation turns into this big
372
00:18:04,833 --> 00:18:06,960
thing on speculation about the future
and this and that,
373
00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:09,838
and I felt like I was really starting
to lose touch with it.
374
00:18:09,838 --> 00:18:11,715
And it's like, well, I don't know,
how is this even relevant?
375
00:18:11,715 --> 00:18:13,592
Okay, sure,
maybe this is going to happen. What?
376
00:18:13,592 --> 00:18:16,595
I don't know, but it doesn't really seem
to make any difference in my own life.
377
00:18:16,678 --> 00:18:21,058
And you're saying, well, okay,
we're we're missing a huge point of this.
378
00:18:21,058 --> 00:18:22,101
It is relevant.
379
00:18:22,101 --> 00:18:24,520
It is it matters for our lives today
380
00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:27,064
it starts with the letters
to the seven churches, right.
381
00:18:27,064 --> 00:18:28,398
It's it's an apocalypse.
382
00:18:28,398 --> 00:18:30,692
It's a it's a vision that John received.
383
00:18:30,692 --> 00:18:32,903
And then he figured out how to write it
down.
384
00:18:32,903 --> 00:18:34,071
Took a long time. Probably.
385
00:18:35,572 --> 00:18:35,781
Yeah.
386
00:18:35,781 --> 00:18:37,574
So it is a real vision.
387
00:18:37,574 --> 00:18:40,577
I mean, John, I should say
John received real visions, I think.
388
00:18:40,786 --> 00:18:43,747
But then he spent a lot of time,
I think, thinking about how to record
389
00:18:43,747 --> 00:18:44,414
these visions well.
390
00:18:44,414 --> 00:18:49,878
But it's also a letter right to real
churches to encourage them to conquer.
391
00:18:49,878 --> 00:18:52,840
And that imagery from the rest of the book
is embedded here.
392
00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:55,843
So we got that in the letter to Smyrna.
393
00:18:56,802 --> 00:19:01,306
Jesus is the one who is the one who died
and came to life.
394
00:19:01,974 --> 00:19:04,726
He says the words of the first
and last who died and came to life,
395
00:19:04,726 --> 00:19:10,149
which reminds us of, a few chapters later,
the lamb who had had been slain.
396
00:19:10,149 --> 00:19:12,943
Right.
Jesus says this kind of thing throughout.
397
00:19:12,943 --> 00:19:15,195
And there's also
the beast is the parody of that,
398
00:19:15,195 --> 00:19:17,614
who looks like he had a deadly wound
that was healed.
399
00:19:17,614 --> 00:19:19,908
Now he's he's the anti messiah.
400
00:19:19,908 --> 00:19:21,535
So you have that right away. You have,
401
00:19:23,245 --> 00:19:25,289
in chapters nine and ten,
402
00:19:25,289 --> 00:19:28,292
I know your tribulation,
your poverty, etc.
403
00:19:28,500 --> 00:19:30,085
don't fear what you about to suffer.
404
00:19:30,085 --> 00:19:32,171
The devil is about to throw some of you
into prison,
405
00:19:32,171 --> 00:19:35,174
that you may be tested and for ten days
you will have tribulation.
406
00:19:35,174 --> 00:19:38,177
Be faithful to death
and I will give you the crown of life.
407
00:19:38,427 --> 00:19:43,098
This very much previews language
later in Revelation about how the beast is
408
00:19:43,098 --> 00:19:48,187
given, is granted to overcome,
to conquer God's people for a time,
409
00:19:48,604 --> 00:19:51,607
there's this vision of the two witnesses
that,
410
00:19:52,649 --> 00:19:55,235
that's
just like a bizarre piece, by the way.
411
00:19:55,235 --> 00:19:56,153
Yeah, it's very bizarre.
412
00:19:56,153 --> 00:20:00,032
I mean, even for Revelation level bizarre,
It's kind of like the most surrealist,
413
00:20:01,033 --> 00:20:03,911
thing, little kind of element.
414
00:20:03,911 --> 00:20:07,080
But, most scholars think that this,
415
00:20:07,414 --> 00:20:10,709
the two witnesses are simply
a, a depiction, again,
416
00:20:10,709 --> 00:20:13,170
from a different perspective
of the church.
417
00:20:13,170 --> 00:20:13,795
Right?
418
00:20:13,795 --> 00:20:17,633
The God's people who bear witness to him
and suffer.
419
00:20:17,925 --> 00:20:18,717
Right.
420
00:20:18,717 --> 00:20:22,804
And, the beast and co have authority
to end up killing them.
421
00:20:23,013 --> 00:20:25,182
Right? And then God raises them up.
422
00:20:25,182 --> 00:20:28,769
So you have this when they get
when the church at Smyrna gets to chapter
423
00:20:28,769 --> 00:20:31,772
11 and reads this,
they say, yes, that's right.
424
00:20:32,231 --> 00:20:36,026
The beast is going
to be able to maybe kill us.
425
00:20:37,110 --> 00:20:40,405
But the lamb has the keys of
426
00:20:40,405 --> 00:20:44,243
death and Hades, and he will, you know,
he will raise us right.
427
00:20:44,576 --> 00:20:47,996
This imagery, in one of the weirdest
visions in the book,
428
00:20:48,330 --> 00:20:51,959
is still supposed to be
for the people of Smyrna, right?
429
00:20:51,959 --> 00:20:54,962
It's supposed to remind them, yes.
430
00:20:55,671 --> 00:20:58,048
The beast may put us to death.
431
00:20:58,048 --> 00:21:00,425
We will have tribulation.
432
00:21:00,425 --> 00:21:03,887
But we'll overcome because the lamb will,
you know, will be raised.
433
00:21:03,929 --> 00:21:04,888
That. the.
434
00:21:04,888 --> 00:21:06,181
Oh, it makes a lot of sense. Yeah.
435
00:21:06,181 --> 00:21:10,018
I just it's so easy to to read this
and it just kind of washes over you
436
00:21:10,018 --> 00:21:14,106
and you don't actually think to
to try to put the pieces back together,
437
00:21:14,189 --> 00:21:16,233
so to speak. I guess, like it's like that.
438
00:21:16,233 --> 00:21:16,984
It's almost like a puzzle
439
00:21:16,984 --> 00:21:20,946
without the, without the box, picture to
where do all these pieces go?
440
00:21:20,946 --> 00:21:21,238
You know,
441
00:21:23,156 --> 00:21:24,574
or at least that's how it feels.
442
00:21:24,574 --> 00:21:29,329
And I think that is often why people
just don't really read the book that much.
443
00:21:29,329 --> 00:21:32,332
Yeah. You know, or maybe they do,
and they go way off on bunny trails.
444
00:21:32,332 --> 00:21:34,084
Actually,
we were just doing another podcast
445
00:21:34,084 --> 00:21:36,086
earlier today
with a different, different guest.
446
00:21:36,086 --> 00:21:37,504
And we're after the cameras are off.
447
00:21:37,504 --> 00:21:38,422
We were talking about
448
00:21:38,422 --> 00:21:42,426
the latest prophecy book that's coming out
and just being like, oh, no, they just
449
00:21:42,634 --> 00:21:43,677
they're totally
450
00:21:43,677 --> 00:21:46,680
they're they're wildly speculating down
that there's one rabbit trail and they’re
451
00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:50,559
just going waaaay off, and then you're
missing so much of this in the text.
452
00:21:51,143 --> 00:21:53,353
Anyway, so not to get off on a bunny
trail ourselves
453
00:21:53,353 --> 00:21:54,896
No, I think that’s a good way
of talking about it.
454
00:21:54,896 --> 00:21:59,860
The and I, I think,
if you will, these letters to the churches
455
00:21:59,860 --> 00:22:03,530
can be in one sense part of that box,
456
00:22:04,114 --> 00:22:06,116
the picture of the puzzle on the box,
you know.
457
00:22:06,116 --> 00:22:07,242
Oh, yeah.
458
00:22:07,242 --> 00:22:08,910
Not that it. I never thought of that.
459
00:22:08,910 --> 00:22:11,997
Not that it fills all the pieces in,
but at least grounds you.
460
00:22:11,997 --> 00:22:14,291
It's a lens. So I, I like to think
of these letters as a lens,
461
00:22:15,250 --> 00:22:16,877
to read the book through.
462
00:22:16,877 --> 00:22:19,379
And if you're start
speculating in crazy ways
463
00:22:19,379 --> 00:22:22,382
that would never
464
00:22:22,799 --> 00:22:26,094
are sort of at odds
with the purpose of these seven letters.
465
00:22:26,386 --> 00:22:27,804
That might be a sign that maybe I'm
466
00:22:27,804 --> 00:22:29,556
reading Revelation
through a slightly wrong lens.
467
00:22:29,556 --> 00:22:31,141
maybe I'm taking this a little too far.
468
00:22:31,141 --> 00:22:33,143
Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
469
00:22:33,143 --> 00:22:36,271
Smyrna’s
letter ends with, with Jesus saying,
470
00:22:36,271 --> 00:22:39,274
the one who conquers will not be hurt
by the second death.
471
00:22:39,358 --> 00:22:42,694
And that phrase, the second death shows up
once more in Revelation.
472
00:22:42,819 --> 00:22:45,697
Yeah, at the end.
And speaking of the lake of fire. Right.
473
00:22:45,697 --> 00:22:47,991
That's that's a good way of saying it.
474
00:22:47,991 --> 00:22:52,079
And I think that's the easy bit to miss
is the quote
475
00:22:52,079 --> 00:22:55,624
unquote hyperlinks or whatever, you know,
the linking, the weaving that's going on.
476
00:22:55,624 --> 00:22:58,627
Because
is this not also some of this to do with,
477
00:22:59,252 --> 00:23:04,174
more a Western modern way
of engaging with information
478
00:23:04,174 --> 00:23:07,969
where I expect this to be a point
1,2,3,4,5, it's all a nice order.
479
00:23:08,470 --> 00:23:09,513
It's just right here.
480
00:23:09,513 --> 00:23:12,140
And that's not how this book is
laid out at all.
481
00:23:12,140 --> 00:23:15,060
Oh, yeah, very much.
But but even in the modern West,
482
00:23:16,478 --> 00:23:19,356
in, in good literature
483
00:23:19,356 --> 00:23:23,193
or or visual arts
or even or maybe even music,
484
00:23:24,069 --> 00:23:27,489
you have,
you have things like this, right?
485
00:23:27,489 --> 00:23:30,742
A good piece of a good piece of literature
or poetry
486
00:23:31,159 --> 00:23:34,079
is going to be very elusive and very dense
and not linear.
487
00:23:34,079 --> 00:23:36,373
Right. It's going to that's a great point.
488
00:23:36,373 --> 00:23:39,126
I yeah, I hadn't thought of that.
So it's not like we've ditched it.
489
00:23:39,126 --> 00:23:40,877
It's just that we've come to the Bible
490
00:23:40,877 --> 00:23:44,464
expecting the Bible
to be sort of a bullet point list.
491
00:23:44,798 --> 00:23:47,050
Instead of a poem, right?
492
00:23:47,050 --> 00:23:48,510
Isn't it? Isn't there.
493
00:23:48,510 --> 00:23:50,512
And this is more like a poem.
494
00:23:50,512 --> 00:23:55,142
this might get me in hot water,
but I've heard the Bible described.
495
00:23:55,142 --> 00:23:58,061
Oh, this is the instruction manual,
you know, and all that stuff.
496
00:23:58,061 --> 00:24:00,730
Not saying it's not,
but if you have this idea.
497
00:24:00,730 --> 00:24:02,732
Oh, it's an instruction manual, right?
498
00:24:02,732 --> 00:24:05,235
That's like,
oh, instructions like point 1, point 2.
499
00:24:05,235 --> 00:24:06,695
You know, it's very linear.
500
00:24:06,695 --> 00:24:09,489
It's it reads kind of boring,
like a textbook or something.
501
00:24:10,866 --> 00:24:13,577
It doesn't
seem it feels like that could get it
502
00:24:13,577 --> 00:24:15,579
almost the wrong impression
of what we're looking at here.
503
00:24:15,579 --> 00:24:18,540
I mean, it is an instruction manual,
yeah. At a very loose level.
504
00:24:18,540 --> 00:24:20,917
Yeah. I know if, Yeah. No,
I think that's right.
505
00:24:20,917 --> 00:24:21,543
Way off.
506
00:24:21,543 --> 00:24:23,670
No, no, I think that's absolutely
I think that's actually
507
00:24:23,670 --> 00:24:25,922
I think that's a really
I think that's insightful
508
00:24:25,922 --> 00:24:29,718
because because I've heard people say that
and I think trying to be helpful,
509
00:24:29,759 --> 00:24:30,802
all that stuff. Of course.
510
00:24:30,802 --> 00:24:34,139
But it's like, well,
if if I'm coming to this, looking at it as
511
00:24:34,139 --> 00:24:38,059
like a textbook or a list of instructions,
maybe that's a way of saying,
512
00:24:38,685 --> 00:24:42,230
yeah, I think you're going to miss a lot
of what you're saying is like, oh, well,
513
00:24:42,272 --> 00:24:43,732
it it uses this language here.
514
00:24:43,732 --> 00:24:45,650
And then, hey, later on it
refers back to, you know,
515
00:24:45,650 --> 00:24:47,944
and it's linking back and forth
and there's weaving
516
00:24:47,944 --> 00:24:50,780
and there's layers involved
of, of meaning.
517
00:24:50,780 --> 00:24:52,824
Because in an instruction
manual you're not doing any of that.
518
00:24:52,824 --> 00:24:54,618
It's just like surface text, you know?
519
00:24:54,618 --> 00:24:56,244
Anyway, I could be way off.
520
00:24:56,244 --> 00:24:57,829
you're absolutely right.
521
00:24:57,829 --> 00:25:00,457
I think good wisdom literature,
522
00:25:02,375 --> 00:25:04,085
in Proverbs
523
00:25:04,085 --> 00:25:07,631
even sometimes
you read things like about the,
524
00:25:07,923 --> 00:25:12,469
the words of the wise and their riddles
right in, in sometimes in wisdom
525
00:25:12,469 --> 00:25:16,890
tradition, there is this sense
that you to gain wisdom.
526
00:25:18,183 --> 00:25:21,186
Sometimes you have to sit with a riddle
for a long time.
527
00:25:21,603 --> 00:25:23,647
That's part of what the wise do.
528
00:25:23,647 --> 00:25:24,773
That's a good point, right?
529
00:25:24,773 --> 00:25:29,319
So even even in instruction,
sometimes it's very I mean, like Proverbs
530
00:25:29,319 --> 00:25:32,155
sometimes has very, you know,
don't do, don't do stupid things.
531
00:25:32,155 --> 00:25:35,158
Right. Right. Insightful instruction.
532
00:25:35,450 --> 00:25:37,202
But other times,
533
00:25:37,202 --> 00:25:40,539
other times it's, it's riddles
are even things that seem paradoxical.
534
00:25:40,622 --> 00:25:40,956
Yeah.
535
00:25:40,956 --> 00:25:44,167
And you're left with that because
sometimes the best way to be instructed
536
00:25:44,584 --> 00:25:47,504
is to sit with something
that's a little less explicit.
537
00:25:47,504 --> 00:25:50,006
You know Well,
but isn't this kind of classic,
538
00:25:51,383 --> 00:25:52,759
teaching style that Jesus
539
00:25:52,759 --> 00:25:57,138
uses with parables where even the his own
disciples are coming up like, wait.
540
00:25:57,138 --> 00:25:58,848
Yeah.
You know, we're not quite tracking here.
541
00:25:58,848 --> 00:25:59,516
Can you explain this?
542
00:25:59,516 --> 00:26:02,811
And there's something profound about, say,
one of the parables of Jesus.
543
00:26:02,811 --> 00:26:03,687
You can read it,
544
00:26:03,687 --> 00:26:06,439
and you can just just sit
with that parable for a long time,
545
00:26:06,439 --> 00:26:08,692
and just layers of
meaning will start coming through.
546
00:26:08,692 --> 00:26:09,317
And it's not
547
00:26:09,317 --> 00:26:12,279
if it were just an instruction,
you'd be like, okay, .123, right?
548
00:26:12,279 --> 00:26:15,115
Okay. Not,
you know, it's not like that anyways.
549
00:26:15,115 --> 00:26:18,868
And I don't want to derail this,
but I think it feels like that.
550
00:26:18,868 --> 00:26:21,162
That's a piece that’s
starting to really click for me
551
00:26:21,162 --> 00:26:24,708
because I have heard that a lot,
you know, in my own life.
552
00:26:24,708 --> 00:26:29,963
And it feels almost like that's not wrong,
but it feels like you could miss a lot.
553
00:26:30,171 --> 00:26:33,174
Yeah. Of of layers, you know, levels.
554
00:26:33,216 --> 00:26:36,344
Again, I'm thinking like like a parable
of Jesus, if you turn that into a
555
00:26:36,803 --> 00:26:38,430
just an instruction manual,
I don't know, it
556
00:26:38,430 --> 00:26:40,557
feels like you're going to miss some stuff
there, you know.
557
00:26:40,557 --> 00:26:43,310
So anyways, I'm,
I feel like I'm going to have to go
558
00:26:43,310 --> 00:26:46,062
and think on this a while, honestly,
because that's.
559
00:26:46,062 --> 00:26:47,105
Yeah. Yeah.
560
00:26:47,105 --> 00:26:51,276
So I think that's so again, these, these
can serve as the letters to the churches
561
00:26:51,276 --> 00:26:55,280
I think can serve as a lens through
which to read the rest of the book.
562
00:26:55,280 --> 00:27:00,702
In, in, you know, insofar as they
themselves have embedded within them
563
00:27:01,244 --> 00:27:04,956
links to the later imagery
and it's helping you to realize, you know,
564
00:27:05,582 --> 00:27:08,418
all the imagery we see later is meant
565
00:27:08,418 --> 00:27:12,964
to be reminding these churches
how to be faithful to Jesus.
566
00:27:13,298 --> 00:27:15,258
And overcome. Right.
567
00:27:15,258 --> 00:27:20,263
And so you see things like the second
death or, in Pergamum, you have,
568
00:27:22,223 --> 00:27:23,975
mean Jesus has a few things
569
00:27:23,975 --> 00:27:27,020
against these people because,
570
00:27:29,022 --> 00:27:31,274
they hold the practices of,
571
00:27:31,274 --> 00:27:34,110
the teaching of Balaam, etc.
572
00:27:34,110 --> 00:27:37,405
and if they don't repent,
Jesus is going to wage war again
573
00:27:37,614 --> 00:27:42,077
against them with the sword of his mouth,
which shows up in chapter 19.
574
00:27:42,994 --> 00:27:44,412
Yeah. Oh, whoa.
575
00:27:44,412 --> 00:27:44,788
Yeah.
576
00:27:44,788 --> 00:27:47,791
Oh, that's fascinating,
because that's that famous imagery of
577
00:27:48,083 --> 00:27:50,335
of the rider on the horse. yep.
578
00:27:50,335 --> 00:27:52,253
And the sword out of the mouth. Yeah.
579
00:27:52,253 --> 00:27:54,214
And. Oh, interesting.
580
00:27:54,214 --> 00:27:55,298
And I've never noticed that.
581
00:27:55,298 --> 00:27:59,219
Yeah, but but when you read, about the
582
00:28:00,053 --> 00:28:02,764
this the word of, you know,
who comes riding on the horse
583
00:28:02,764 --> 00:28:05,767
with the sword out of his mouth,
which is, comes from,
584
00:28:05,850 --> 00:28:08,853
Isaiah, I think,
585
00:28:09,229 --> 00:28:12,232
again, the people from Pergamum
are supposed to say,
586
00:28:13,066 --> 00:28:17,153
if we don't repent, that sword
is going to be wielded against us, right?
587
00:28:17,153 --> 00:28:18,988
Again, it's not a when
is that going to happen?
588
00:28:18,988 --> 00:28:22,033
It's that's we're going to be
on the wrong side of that sword
589
00:28:22,575 --> 00:28:24,953
if we don't repent
of our sexual immorality.
590
00:28:24,953 --> 00:28:26,621
That's what Jesus is telling them.
591
00:28:26,621 --> 00:28:30,959
And that's how they're supposed
to encounter that image of the rider
592
00:28:30,959 --> 00:28:31,418
on the horse.
593
00:28:31,418 --> 00:28:33,336
Later, because they're going to be reading
through the rest of this book
594
00:28:33,336 --> 00:28:36,715
and be like, oh, that kind of steps
on some toes, you know, or like, oh,
595
00:28:37,090 --> 00:28:37,841
pay extra attention here.
596
00:28:37,841 --> 00:28:39,759
From his mouth comes a sharp sword.
597
00:28:39,759 --> 00:28:43,638
So they're just be reading right from
his mouth comes a sharp sword, which,
598
00:28:44,222 --> 00:28:45,640
with which to strike down the nations.
599
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:48,685
And he will rule them with a rod of
iron and they're like, oops.
600
00:28:50,395 --> 00:28:53,398
But Jesus
mentioned that in our letter, right.
601
00:28:53,481 --> 00:28:55,191
We better avoid that. Right.
602
00:28:55,191 --> 00:28:58,111
So it's that kind of thing,
then it that is powerful.
603
00:28:58,111 --> 00:28:59,571
That's really.
604
00:28:59,571 --> 00:29:02,031
at the end of their letter of that letter.
605
00:29:02,031 --> 00:29:04,659
I will give him a white stone
with a new name written on the stone
606
00:29:04,659 --> 00:29:06,745
that no one knows
except the one who receives it.
607
00:29:06,745 --> 00:29:10,957
Jesus is later described in Revelation
as having, his own
608
00:29:11,666 --> 00:29:14,669
name written
that no one knows his own secret name.
609
00:29:14,669 --> 00:29:15,295
Yeah.
610
00:29:15,295 --> 00:29:19,758
Which represents probably, so if you
if you have your own secret name,
611
00:29:19,799 --> 00:29:22,802
he has his own secret name,
and you're sort of led into this,
612
00:29:24,471 --> 00:29:26,181
it represents perhaps
613
00:29:26,181 --> 00:29:30,435
authority, special authority,
but also maybe special, special knowledge.
614
00:29:30,435 --> 00:29:32,312
Special relationship or something. Right.
615
00:29:32,312 --> 00:29:34,314
But again, it's tied together.
616
00:29:34,314 --> 00:29:36,483
When you read about Jesus secret
name, you're supposed remember.
617
00:29:36,483 --> 00:29:39,027
Oh, and he's going to give us one, too,
if we belong to him.
618
00:29:39,027 --> 00:29:39,527
Right.
619
00:29:39,527 --> 00:29:41,780
Let's stay with him kind of thing. Right?
620
00:29:41,780 --> 00:29:43,573
Yeah, yeah.
621
00:29:43,573 --> 00:29:46,576
Just a couple more examples here,
and then I’ll stop.
622
00:29:46,951 --> 00:29:48,161
So in Thyatira,
623
00:29:49,162 --> 00:29:52,165
there is this woman that Jesus calls
Jezebel.
624
00:29:52,165 --> 00:29:52,874
Right?
625
00:29:52,874 --> 00:29:56,544
And she's seducing people
to, of the church to practice
626
00:29:56,544 --> 00:29:58,838
sexual immorality
and to eat food offered to idols.
627
00:29:58,838 --> 00:30:01,424
I gave her time to repent,
but she refused to repent.
628
00:30:01,424 --> 00:30:03,468
So I'm going to throw her onto a sickbed.
629
00:30:03,468 --> 00:30:06,596
And those who commit adultery with her
I will throw into great tribulation
630
00:30:06,596 --> 00:30:09,599
until they repent,
631
00:30:09,682 --> 00:30:11,267
And then we get to.
632
00:30:11,267 --> 00:30:12,268
So this is talking about
633
00:30:12,268 --> 00:30:15,688
some probably specific false teaching
that was in that church,
634
00:30:16,064 --> 00:30:19,400
that was teaching the people
to go into licentiousness or whatever.
635
00:30:20,485 --> 00:30:24,989
And Jesus describes this as using this
very kind of Old Testament
636
00:30:24,989 --> 00:30:31,204
adultery imagery that then is judged
by the adulteress and her lovers,
637
00:30:31,246 --> 00:30:34,916
like all being thrown onto this bed
together and facing lots of tribulation.
638
00:30:35,583 --> 00:30:38,586
But in the later
chapters on the fall of Babylon,
639
00:30:39,337 --> 00:30:42,340
Babylon is the harlot, and Babylon
and her.
640
00:30:42,632 --> 00:30:43,091
Lovers.
641
00:30:43,091 --> 00:30:47,136
Basically the nations, experience
great tribulation, right?
642
00:30:47,136 --> 00:30:50,139
They're essentially thrown into this,
643
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:54,102
sick bed,
if you will, right, of torment and stuff.
644
00:30:54,561 --> 00:30:57,981
And so when you read the chapter
18 on the Fall of Babylon,
645
00:30:58,481 --> 00:31:02,694
you just be like, oh, man, this is like a
this scene about how this the harlot
646
00:31:02,694 --> 00:31:07,448
Babylon is being is being thrown
into torment with all the people who,
647
00:31:08,408 --> 00:31:09,033
drank the
648
00:31:09,033 --> 00:31:11,995
wine of the passion for sexual immorality
with her.
649
00:31:12,871 --> 00:31:16,583
You know, that sounds a little too eerily
like what Jesus warned our church
650
00:31:16,583 --> 00:31:20,461
about the false teaching, what's going to
what he's going to do to us
651
00:31:20,879 --> 00:31:21,796
in the false teaching.
652
00:31:21,796 --> 00:31:24,799
But we're,
653
00:31:24,924 --> 00:31:26,551
we're sort of the licentiousness.
654
00:31:26,551 --> 00:31:31,681
We're going into Whoa, it's it's like,
almost like a way of reinforcing
655
00:31:32,265 --> 00:31:36,394
things or or stuff that's here,
but then a different, a different angle,
656
00:31:36,394 --> 00:31:40,315
almost like, to make it really memorable
or to stick it, I guess.
657
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:44,110
And I just, I think that the whole way
like all of these imagery, all of this
658
00:31:44,110 --> 00:31:47,697
imagery in the rest of Revelation
is meant to hit us like that.
659
00:31:47,697 --> 00:31:48,573
Right?
660
00:31:48,573 --> 00:31:51,534
Just like these specific embedded
embedded ones.
661
00:31:51,534 --> 00:31:57,040
And that's again where we can miss the,
the warnings like, almost or like,
662
00:31:57,206 --> 00:31:59,792
like you're saying is,
it is kind of supposed to almost like
663
00:31:59,792 --> 00:32:02,337
smack you, metaphorically speaking, like,
hey, pay attention to this.
664
00:32:02,337 --> 00:32:04,047
This is really important, right?
665
00:32:04,047 --> 00:32:06,090
Don't don't go down that street.
666
00:32:06,090 --> 00:32:10,261
But instead, if we're speculating,
calculating years and dates and numbers
667
00:32:10,261 --> 00:32:12,722
and figures and all that stuff
and trying to put it out there
668
00:32:12,722 --> 00:32:15,058
in the future somewhere, you may
you may really miss that warning actually.
669
00:32:15,058 --> 00:32:15,350
Yeah.
670
00:32:15,350 --> 00:32:18,603
And you're,
you may be missing the way these letters
671
00:32:18,603 --> 00:32:21,689
to the churches in a sense,
are the author.
672
00:32:21,689 --> 00:32:26,069
And Jesus first application and
interpretation of the rest of Revelation.
673
00:32:26,069 --> 00:32:26,569
Right.
674
00:32:26,569 --> 00:32:28,696
Oh, that's a that's a thought.
675
00:32:28,696 --> 00:32:32,075
And the, the you know,
the way that Jesus is applying Revelation
676
00:32:32,533 --> 00:32:35,870
is pulling some of the imagery
and pointing it out
677
00:32:35,870 --> 00:32:39,123
to specific churches and saying,
make sure you catch this, right?
678
00:32:39,707 --> 00:32:41,376
Whoa, what a thought.
679
00:32:41,376 --> 00:32:43,753
Yeah, okay, I see that, though.
680
00:32:43,753 --> 00:32:45,254
So there's plenty more like this.
681
00:32:45,254 --> 00:32:47,340
And we're not going to there's
no time to go through them all.
682
00:32:47,340 --> 00:32:49,509
There's only one more I want to mention.
683
00:32:49,509 --> 00:32:54,889
And it's this very curious phrase
where where Jesus says, in the,
684
00:32:56,641 --> 00:32:58,893
the letter to Thyatira at the end,
685
00:32:58,893 --> 00:33:02,981
the one who conquers, I will give him
authority over the nations.
686
00:33:02,981 --> 00:33:04,691
He will rule them with a rod of iron.
687
00:33:04,691 --> 00:33:07,944
This is Psalm two,
which pops up throughout Revelation.
688
00:33:07,944 --> 00:33:09,862
Jesus has this authority of the Messiah,
689
00:33:09,862 --> 00:33:11,572
but he's going to share it
with his people.
690
00:33:11,572 --> 00:33:14,575
And then he says,
and I will give him the morning star.
691
00:33:14,909 --> 00:33:15,743
Okay?
692
00:33:15,743 --> 00:33:17,120
So just like, okay, thanks.
693
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:19,914
You know, like,
oh that's great. Oh, whatever.
694
00:33:19,914 --> 00:33:21,416
I'm confused. Yeah, yeah.
695
00:33:21,416 --> 00:33:23,876
But the Morning Star,
696
00:33:23,876 --> 00:33:27,338
is is a, is is very much this.
697
00:33:27,338 --> 00:33:31,050
This language of the morning
star is tied to Balaam’s oracle
698
00:33:31,175 --> 00:33:34,178
of the scepter and the star that will,
699
00:33:34,971 --> 00:33:39,642
that will come from Judah, which is,
which becomes in, in the Bible, in Jewish
700
00:33:39,642 --> 00:33:43,396
tradition, a very important symbol
of the coming Messiah.
701
00:33:43,730 --> 00:33:44,022
Right.
702
00:33:44,981 --> 00:33:47,984
And this, this
703
00:33:47,984 --> 00:33:50,737
phrase, this word, this wording shows up
704
00:33:50,737 --> 00:33:54,991
one more time in Revelation,
and it's like it's at the very, very end.
705
00:33:55,158 --> 00:33:58,161
It's like the last,
706
00:33:58,161 --> 00:34:01,164
the last words of Jesus in the book,
707
00:34:01,581 --> 00:34:04,584
in chapter 22,
708
00:34:05,001 --> 00:34:08,504
I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to
you about these things for the churches.
709
00:34:08,504 --> 00:34:11,507
I am the root and the descendant of David,
the bright morning star,
710
00:34:13,217 --> 00:34:14,886
And so, like in this, in this weird
711
00:34:14,886 --> 00:34:19,057
way, Jesus seems to be saying that, yeah,
I will give you the authority
712
00:34:19,057 --> 00:34:22,018
that I receive from the father,
and I will give you myself.
713
00:34:23,561 --> 00:34:26,564
Like, if you overcome,
you will get the morning star.
714
00:34:26,564 --> 00:34:29,400
And at the end of the book
he says, that's me.
715
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:30,693
Whoa! Like what?
716
00:34:30,693 --> 00:34:33,029
What is that? What does that mean? Like,
717
00:34:36,657 --> 00:34:37,116
I don't know.
718
00:34:37,116 --> 00:34:40,078
I think that's beautiful. Yeah.
719
00:34:40,078 --> 00:34:40,995
That's wild.
720
00:34:40,995 --> 00:34:43,998
I, I've not seen that before. No.
721
00:34:44,499 --> 00:34:46,709
The morning star. Yeah,
722
00:34:46,709 --> 00:34:48,419
That's all the way, Revelation 22.
723
00:34:48,419 --> 00:34:49,670
Right. Like all the way at the very end.
724
00:34:49,670 --> 00:34:51,756
imagine you're thinking about this.
You're the letter.
725
00:34:51,756 --> 00:34:53,091
You're in the church of Thyatira.
726
00:34:53,091 --> 00:34:54,592
You're
thinking you're given the morning star
727
00:34:54,592 --> 00:34:56,886
and you're like,
I know that oracle about the scepter.
728
00:34:56,886 --> 00:35:00,681
And the star will come out of Judah,
and that's that's Jesus.
729
00:35:00,681 --> 00:35:01,182
Yeah.
730
00:35:01,182 --> 00:35:02,642
And then you're just waiting.
731
00:35:02,642 --> 00:35:04,102
You're listening
732
00:35:04,102 --> 00:35:07,105
to the rest of the book being read,
because that's how you receive Revelation.
733
00:35:07,105 --> 00:35:08,356
The book of any book of the Bible.
734
00:35:08,356 --> 00:35:11,192
Is somebody reading it to you don't
have your own copy and your quiet time.
735
00:35:11,192 --> 00:35:11,943
Right?
736
00:35:11,943 --> 00:35:15,780
And then you come to the very last bit
and Jesus says, I'm the morning star. And.
737
00:35:17,323 --> 00:35:19,158
Yeah,
738
00:35:19,158 --> 00:35:20,409
yeah. That's powerful.
739
00:35:20,409 --> 00:35:21,702
That is powerful.
740
00:35:21,702 --> 00:35:23,329
you say, that's why we have to overcome.
741
00:35:23,329 --> 00:35:25,248
Yeah, yeah.
742
00:35:25,248 --> 00:35:28,251
So, so these letters are
743
00:35:29,001 --> 00:35:32,046
I think the a lens like,
okay, we're talking about
744
00:35:33,005 --> 00:35:35,883
there's all these spirals, there's
these, these bowls and these trumpets
745
00:35:35,883 --> 00:35:39,428
and these seals that go cyclical
but also have a trajectory to the end.
746
00:35:39,428 --> 00:35:41,681
You're like, wow. You know,
that's interesting.
747
00:35:41,681 --> 00:35:43,850
That's intriguing.
But it's also complicated.
748
00:35:43,850 --> 00:35:47,353
One of the anchor points
to keep us grounded as we try to read
749
00:35:47,353 --> 00:35:49,105
the rest of the book is the seven letters,
750
00:35:49,105 --> 00:35:53,025
because they help us to say,
how are we supposed to apply this imagery?
751
00:35:53,025 --> 00:35:54,735
What is the most important kind of thing?
752
00:35:54,735 --> 00:35:56,070
What matters?
753
00:35:56,070 --> 00:36:00,074
And I think, you know, this is the lens,
you know, that makes sense.
754
00:36:00,700 --> 00:36:01,200
Yeah. That
755
00:36:02,243 --> 00:36:05,204
this feels like such a,
756
00:36:05,204 --> 00:36:08,624
immediately
actionable way of reading Revelation
757
00:36:08,624 --> 00:36:11,627
as in you don't need to do
all kinds of fancy research and stuff.
758
00:36:11,627 --> 00:36:14,630
You can just pick up
Revelation and, and start looking
759
00:36:15,131 --> 00:36:18,509
through that lens and immediately
start seeing this stuff.
760
00:36:19,302 --> 00:36:20,720
And, and there's oh wow.
761
00:36:20,720 --> 00:36:21,637
Like you're talking again.
762
00:36:21,637 --> 00:36:24,140
Start to peel back the layers. Yeah.
763
00:36:24,140 --> 00:36:28,394
And also try to, to remove
a lot of the extrabiblical layers
764
00:36:28,394 --> 00:36:29,270
that have been piled on top
765
00:36:29,270 --> 00:36:32,523
from our culture and worldview
and our biases and all of these things.
766
00:36:32,523 --> 00:36:36,110
It's just gotten kind of snowed under,
you know, by that.
767
00:36:36,903 --> 00:36:39,906
Wow. So that that was the lens.
768
00:36:40,114 --> 00:36:42,200
And then there's another piece
you want to. Yeah.
769
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:44,160
I don't want to. Yeah.
I don't want to spend.
770
00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:47,246
So the other two pieces,
the one is the ending, the new
771
00:36:47,288 --> 00:36:52,210
the vision of new creation, chapters 21
and 22 that puts the whole Bible together.
772
00:36:52,210 --> 00:36:55,421
It brings in imagery of temple
and Eden and marriage,
773
00:36:55,630 --> 00:36:57,965
and it's like, weaves it all together
to the end of the story.
774
00:36:59,091 --> 00:37:00,176
And we have a
775
00:37:00,176 --> 00:37:03,971
we we are doing a whole
nother episode on specifically that.
776
00:37:03,971 --> 00:37:04,513
Right.
777
00:37:04,513 --> 00:37:07,516
But that's if the letters to
the churches are a lens,
778
00:37:08,017 --> 00:37:11,354
then the ending kind of grounds you
at the end of the book, right, to say,
779
00:37:11,354 --> 00:37:15,399
okay, the story
may do all these strange movements,
780
00:37:15,399 --> 00:37:18,402
but we end here
and that's that's a grounding place.
781
00:37:18,611 --> 00:37:22,323
There's one more in the middle, Revelation
chapter 12.
782
00:37:22,698 --> 00:37:25,743
And we could do a whole episode on this,
783
00:37:25,993 --> 00:37:28,955
but it's the story of the woman
and the dragon.
784
00:37:29,455 --> 00:37:30,248
Oh, yeah.
785
00:37:30,248 --> 00:37:34,585
Well, that's this is a again I mean,
again, Revelation is a little bit wild.
786
00:37:34,919 --> 00:37:37,838
This is also bizarre.
787
00:37:37,838 --> 00:37:41,676
Or I say that lovingly, but, like,
it's just, you know, it's just like.
788
00:37:42,134 --> 00:37:44,345
Whoa.
789
00:37:44,345 --> 00:37:45,554
It's hard
to get our heads around all of this.
790
00:37:45,554 --> 00:37:47,223
Yeah.
791
00:37:47,223 --> 00:37:49,892
But what's happening here
is, in a sense, right
792
00:37:49,892 --> 00:37:52,103
smack in the middle of the of the book.
793
00:37:52,103 --> 00:37:55,106
It's kind of like a pause
and we say, hey, this chapter
794
00:37:55,439 --> 00:37:59,318
kind of gives you
a little separate perspective
795
00:37:59,318 --> 00:38:05,032
on this whole era of redemptive history,
from Jesus first coming to his second.
796
00:38:05,199 --> 00:38:09,036
And that gives you another little lens,
a, to help you understand
797
00:38:09,036 --> 00:38:12,623
what's happening in the previous chapters
and in those succeeding,
798
00:38:12,623 --> 00:38:13,499
succeeding chapters.
799
00:38:14,667 --> 00:38:15,543
So it's not supposed
800
00:38:15,543 --> 00:38:18,587
to be like,
Then this is again, it's not sequential.
801
00:38:18,587 --> 00:38:20,631
This is like it's
kind of the center point.
802
00:38:20,631 --> 00:38:25,261
You're like, okay,
I need to zoom out again and see, get a,
803
00:38:25,886 --> 00:38:28,806
get a full perspective on this
and so we have right in the middle,
804
00:38:28,806 --> 00:38:31,809
just as you're starting
to get really confused, this story
805
00:38:32,018 --> 00:38:35,062
to say, okay, just remember
this is sort of the big
806
00:38:35,354 --> 00:38:38,816
the big meta story I'm trying to tell,
John is trying to tell you.
807
00:38:39,275 --> 00:38:43,863
And it's the story of this woman,
she has stars over her head.
808
00:38:43,863 --> 00:38:45,948
She's apparently a very she's
she's a rule.
809
00:38:45,948 --> 00:38:47,742
She's ruling. She's pregnant.
810
00:38:47,742 --> 00:38:50,745
She's crying out in birth pains
and the agony of giving birth.
811
00:38:51,662 --> 00:38:56,083
And then there's a dragon,
and he stands before the woman so that,
812
00:38:56,584 --> 00:38:59,086
when she bears her child,
he might devour it.
813
00:38:59,086 --> 00:39:02,006
And she gives birth to a male child
who is to rule all the nations
814
00:39:02,006 --> 00:39:03,883
with a rod of iron.
This is Psalm two again.
815
00:39:05,259 --> 00:39:08,262
And her
child is caught up to God into his throne.
816
00:39:08,471 --> 00:39:11,015
Who is this woman?
817
00:39:11,015 --> 00:39:13,142
Because,
818
00:39:13,142 --> 00:39:15,019
it's it's a little confusing.
819
00:39:15,019 --> 00:39:17,730
Then she,
820
00:39:17,730 --> 00:39:21,901
the woman flees into the wilderness
where she is kept,
821
00:39:21,901 --> 00:39:26,364
preserved by God for this whole time,
this whole era of tribulation.
822
00:39:26,364 --> 00:39:29,367
Until Jesus returns,
symbolizing in the 1260 days.
823
00:39:30,117 --> 00:39:34,038
And then the camera zooms to, goes back
to her, goes to heaven, and says,
824
00:39:34,038 --> 00:39:36,248
and from heaven's perspective,
there was Michael
825
00:39:36,248 --> 00:39:37,792
and the angels
fighting against the dragon.
826
00:39:37,792 --> 00:39:39,627
The dragon gets kicked out.
827
00:39:39,627 --> 00:39:41,212
Why is Dragon get kicked out?
828
00:39:41,212 --> 00:39:43,714
Well,
because of what had just happened with
829
00:39:43,714 --> 00:39:45,549
this child that was born to the woman.
830
00:39:45,549 --> 00:39:47,468
Jesus. Right.
831
00:39:47,468 --> 00:39:48,969
So he gets kicked out.
832
00:39:48,969 --> 00:39:52,515
And the dragon sees that he'd been.
833
00:39:52,515 --> 00:39:53,557
When the dragon saw that
834
00:39:53,557 --> 00:39:55,810
he'd been thrown to the earth,
he pursued the woman
835
00:39:55,810 --> 00:39:57,478
that had given birth to the male child.
836
00:39:57,478 --> 00:39:59,980
So he realizes his time is short because,
837
00:40:01,690 --> 00:40:02,400
the salvation
838
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:05,694
and the power and the kingdom of our God
and the authority of his Messiah has come.
839
00:40:06,153 --> 00:40:08,155
The accuser of the brothers
has been thrown down.
840
00:40:08,155 --> 00:40:10,950
He's been conquered by the blood of
the lamb and the word of their testimony.
841
00:40:10,950 --> 00:40:13,953
Jesus has triumphed through his death
and resurrection.
842
00:40:14,328 --> 00:40:17,331
So the devil has been,
the dragon is kicked down to earth,
843
00:40:17,790 --> 00:40:19,417
but he's not destroyed yet.
844
00:40:19,417 --> 00:40:21,001
He realizes his time is short.
845
00:40:21,001 --> 00:40:22,169
And so what does he do?
846
00:40:22,169 --> 00:40:25,881
He pursues the woman, but the woman is is,
847
00:40:26,465 --> 00:40:30,553
is kept preserved by God
for this whole length, duration of time.
848
00:40:30,553 --> 00:40:33,305
That the devil that the dragon has left.
849
00:40:33,305 --> 00:40:37,351
And then the dragon became furious
with the woman and went off to make war
850
00:40:37,351 --> 00:40:38,644
on the rest of her offspring, on
851
00:40:38,644 --> 00:40:41,647
those who keep the commandments of God
and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
852
00:40:42,064 --> 00:40:45,067
And he stood on the sand of the sea,
you know, like why?
853
00:40:45,276 --> 00:40:45,985
Well, the next verse
854
00:40:45,985 --> 00:40:49,947
says, I saw a beast rising out of the sea
with ten horns and seven heads.
855
00:40:49,947 --> 00:40:52,575
So what is the what is this dragon do?
856
00:40:52,575 --> 00:40:55,244
He realizes bummer.
857
00:40:55,244 --> 00:40:57,121
The the the son.
858
00:40:57,121 --> 00:41:02,501
Jesus the Messiah has been born,
has died, has risen from the dead.
859
00:41:03,711 --> 00:41:05,671
I'm kicked out of my.
860
00:41:05,671 --> 00:41:08,674
The accuser of the brethren
has been thrown out.
861
00:41:08,883 --> 00:41:14,513
The authority of Jesus has,
you know has has come I my time is short.
862
00:41:14,722 --> 00:41:15,806
What am I going to do with that?
863
00:41:15,806 --> 00:41:18,809
I'm going
to spend the rest of my short time
864
00:41:19,018 --> 00:41:22,396
in making war
on the rest of the offspring of the woman,
865
00:41:22,938 --> 00:41:25,566
which John says
is those who keep the commands of God,
866
00:41:25,566 --> 00:41:28,986
and the next thing he does
is go in and create this beast.
867
00:41:28,986 --> 00:41:30,654
The beast. Right.
868
00:41:30,654 --> 00:41:34,158
That is what that's his, that's his plan
869
00:41:34,158 --> 00:41:37,161
for the rest of the time, he has left
is to,
870
00:41:38,078 --> 00:41:41,499
is to to generate these beasts
out of the sea and the land
871
00:41:41,790 --> 00:41:45,419
that are going to persecute,
the seed of the woman.
872
00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:48,422
The rest of of the disciples of Jesus.
873
00:41:49,965 --> 00:41:52,468
So it's a very it's very it's a lot,
but it's very simple.
874
00:41:52,468 --> 00:41:55,471
When you when it comes down to it, it's
just I mean, it's saying,
875
00:41:56,722 --> 00:41:59,475
Jesus came into the world.
876
00:41:59,475 --> 00:42:01,268
He died and rose again.
877
00:42:01,268 --> 00:42:03,229
He’s seated at the right hand of of God.
878
00:42:03,229 --> 00:42:05,022
All authority is given to him.
879
00:42:05,022 --> 00:42:08,484
The accuser of the brethren is is booted,
but he's not destroyed yet.
880
00:42:08,901 --> 00:42:12,321
And he's very angry, and he's
going to spend all the rest of his time,
881
00:42:13,072 --> 00:42:16,450
on, on, on, trying to
882
00:42:17,535 --> 00:42:20,538
make trying to make war
on all the rest of Jesus’ people.
883
00:42:20,871 --> 00:42:24,166
Wow. And that sets up for the whole kind
884
00:42:24,166 --> 00:42:26,877
of the rest of Revelation
with all these beasts and all this stuff.
885
00:42:26,877 --> 00:42:30,381
So when we read about all these crazy
beasts, we're supposed to go back to this
886
00:42:30,589 --> 00:42:36,428
chapter 12 and say, what this means is
the Dragon devil is very mad,
887
00:42:37,388 --> 00:42:37,763
and he's going
888
00:42:37,763 --> 00:42:40,724
to spend because he knows Jesus has.
889
00:42:40,724 --> 00:42:43,727
Jesus is sitting at the throne
on the throne of God.
890
00:42:44,019 --> 00:42:46,313
And, he's very angry.
891
00:42:46,313 --> 00:42:48,899
And so he's
going to spend the rest of his days,
892
00:42:48,899 --> 00:42:52,152
which he knows are numbered,
trying to make war on us.
893
00:42:52,570 --> 00:42:53,362
It's.
894
00:42:53,362 --> 00:42:56,865
And that's the whole that's again
in the middle of the book, this lens that
895
00:42:56,865 --> 00:43:01,328
we're supposed to read, all these beasts
and all this crazy stuff through.
896
00:43:02,329 --> 00:43:03,080
Okay, so.
897
00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:05,708
So we had what you were saying,
the lens at the beginning,
898
00:43:05,708 --> 00:43:07,626
which is the letters
to the seven churches.
899
00:43:07,626 --> 00:43:10,212
And then you're calling this
an anchor point. An anchor point.
900
00:43:10,212 --> 00:43:13,924
So like, this is a spot in the middle
to kind of peg some things to essentially.
901
00:43:13,966 --> 00:43:14,717
Yeah.
902
00:43:14,717 --> 00:43:18,679
Do you want to tear into that
a bit of like how how exactly are you
903
00:43:18,804 --> 00:43:21,307
or are we thinking of this
as an as an anchor?
904
00:43:21,307 --> 00:43:21,640
Yeah.
905
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:26,812
Well, because, so before this
you have two cycles of, of judgments.
906
00:43:26,812 --> 00:43:30,190
You got the, the trumpets and the seals
and you say, okay, good.
907
00:43:30,190 --> 00:43:33,444
So we've got these, these judgments
and that seem to culminate in
908
00:43:34,153 --> 00:43:34,903
the kingdom coming.
909
00:43:34,903 --> 00:43:37,197
And then the another cycle happens.
910
00:43:37,197 --> 00:43:41,535
And then after chapter 12,
we've got these beasts that arise and,
911
00:43:42,453 --> 00:43:45,414
these two beasts
and then we've got the seven bowls
912
00:43:45,414 --> 00:43:48,917
of God's wrath and like, wow, okay,
I need a little help.
913
00:43:48,917 --> 00:43:53,422
And then we have the prostitute
and the Fall of Babylon
914
00:43:53,422 --> 00:43:56,508
and all this stuff, and right
in the middle, you're saying, okay,
915
00:43:57,259 --> 00:44:00,262
this whole progression,
this cyclical progression
916
00:44:00,304 --> 00:44:03,307
that we see the rest of Revelation
kind of spinning out,
917
00:44:04,433 --> 00:44:05,934
just remember pause.
918
00:44:05,934 --> 00:44:10,064
You know, not a commercial break,
but pause and and remember, just
919
00:44:11,065 --> 00:44:14,068
do you remember this
story from Genesis three, this
920
00:44:14,318 --> 00:44:18,739
not story, this one little verse
in Genesis three, when, Adam and Eve sin
921
00:44:19,156 --> 00:44:23,702
and God says that the seed of the woman,
will, will
922
00:44:24,828 --> 00:44:28,666
there will be enmity between, the serpent
and the woman, your seed and her seed
923
00:44:29,166 --> 00:44:32,169
and the seed of the woman
will crush the head of the serpent.
924
00:44:33,629 --> 00:44:34,588
And such.
925
00:44:34,588 --> 00:44:36,924
Remember that. Well,
926
00:44:36,924 --> 00:44:39,885
let's let's let's picture
927
00:44:40,010 --> 00:44:45,182
let's remember that
this whole saga of beasts and harlots
928
00:44:45,182 --> 00:44:50,145
and all this stuff that we're telling
is, a fleshing out of Genesis 3:15.
929
00:44:51,230 --> 00:44:54,233
This woman is represents,
930
00:44:55,609 --> 00:44:56,568
that prophecy, right?
931
00:44:56,568 --> 00:44:57,569
The seed of the woman.
932
00:44:57,569 --> 00:45:00,864
That's why there's this woman
who's giving birth to a a male child.
933
00:45:01,156 --> 00:45:04,702
And the dragon is called
the ancient serpent,
934
00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:08,163
who is called the devil and Satan
because it's it's taking you back to
935
00:45:08,163 --> 00:45:08,789
the serpent, right?
936
00:45:08,789 --> 00:45:14,169
And saying all this,
all this stuff about beasts and overcoming
937
00:45:14,169 --> 00:45:17,589
and destroying Christians,
and then eventually they'll conquer.
938
00:45:17,881 --> 00:45:20,884
That's just a fleshing out of,
939
00:45:21,301 --> 00:45:25,681
what the what
the serpent is trying to do now.
940
00:45:28,267 --> 00:45:29,268
After the seed of the
941
00:45:29,268 --> 00:45:32,730
woman has dealt him
sort of the fatal blow to the head.
942
00:45:33,063 --> 00:45:34,857
Right.
943
00:45:34,857 --> 00:45:36,734
But his his time is his.
944
00:45:36,734 --> 00:45:39,069
He still has some time to wreak havoc.
945
00:45:39,069 --> 00:45:43,240
And so just remember that little verse,
Genesis 3:15.
946
00:45:44,825 --> 00:45:48,328
The seed of the woman has come
has crushed the head of the serpent,
947
00:45:48,912 --> 00:45:52,833
but he still in the throes of he's
not quite he still has some time.
948
00:45:53,250 --> 00:45:57,421
And so all the rest of these things
about beasts and whatever that we're,
949
00:45:57,421 --> 00:46:03,218
that John's going to be talking about,
it's an unpacking of that simple,
950
00:46:03,218 --> 00:46:08,140
that simple idea, that simple,
big meta story, that the woman.
951
00:46:08,140 --> 00:46:08,432
Right.
952
00:46:08,432 --> 00:46:11,435
The people of God,
whatever Jesus came from,
953
00:46:11,435 --> 00:46:14,229
Jesus was born into
into the people of Israel.
954
00:46:14,229 --> 00:46:15,981
Right?
955
00:46:15,981 --> 00:46:18,150
He has conquered and,
956
00:46:19,151 --> 00:46:22,112
he sits on the throne in heaven.
957
00:46:22,154 --> 00:46:25,157
The devil has been thrown down
in a very angry state,
958
00:46:25,157 --> 00:46:28,160
and the rest of the rest of
959
00:46:28,869 --> 00:46:30,537
his whole time, that's short.
960
00:46:30,537 --> 00:46:33,665
His what's on his mind is to make war
on the rest of her offspring.
961
00:46:34,750 --> 00:46:38,545
It's not talking about one specific
certain number of years in the future.
962
00:46:39,463 --> 00:46:42,466
It's talking about all the years
that the dragon has left
963
00:46:42,758 --> 00:46:46,929
from the time he's booted out of heaven,
Jesus ascension or whatever.
964
00:46:46,929 --> 00:46:49,681
I mean, symbolically, right,
965
00:46:49,681 --> 00:46:52,518
to Jesus return and his getting thrown
into the lake of fire
966
00:46:52,518 --> 00:46:57,189
that characterizes the whole, you know,
this this is what the dragon is up to
967
00:46:57,189 --> 00:47:01,401
for this whole time period between Jesus
first coming and his second coming.
968
00:47:02,194 --> 00:47:05,823
That's what’s, I think, really key
because when we read the rest of it,
969
00:47:05,823 --> 00:47:08,325
then we're not saying,
when is this going to happen?
970
00:47:08,325 --> 00:47:11,703
Is this like a certain three and
a half years or seven years in the future?
971
00:47:11,954 --> 00:47:12,663
We say, no.
972
00:47:12,663 --> 00:47:15,707
Genesis two,
I mean, Revelation 12 told us,
973
00:47:16,041 --> 00:47:19,044
this is what the dragon is up to
for this whole time
974
00:47:19,044 --> 00:47:21,380
since he got booted out of heaven. Right?
975
00:47:21,380 --> 00:47:22,339
Symbolically, of course.
976
00:47:22,339 --> 00:47:24,591
And, you know, since since Jesus,
977
00:47:25,884 --> 00:47:28,554
since all power, all
authority has been given to Jesus, right?
978
00:47:28,554 --> 00:47:32,349
He, you know, his whole this whole entire
979
00:47:32,349 --> 00:47:36,436
era is the
is this 1,260 days or times, times in a
980
00:47:36,979 --> 00:47:41,525
and a half a time of the devil,
the dragon being very mad. So.
981
00:47:41,775 --> 00:47:44,778
So again, it takes us away from saying,
982
00:47:44,862 --> 00:47:47,072
okay, which when is this specific thing
going to happen?
983
00:47:47,072 --> 00:47:48,407
When is this specific thing
going to happen?
984
00:47:48,407 --> 00:47:51,577
Is this something far in the future
to saying, no, no, it's
985
00:47:51,577 --> 00:47:54,830
an Revelation 12 is an anchor point,
because it reminds us
986
00:47:55,664 --> 00:47:57,833
this story of,
987
00:47:57,833 --> 00:48:00,252
the seed of the woman
overcoming the dragon
988
00:48:00,252 --> 00:48:03,255
and then the dragon getting very angry
for the rest of his days.
989
00:48:03,297 --> 00:48:07,634
That's that is the story of where
we're living right now
990
00:48:08,010 --> 00:48:10,762
and where we will be living until Jesus
991
00:48:10,762 --> 00:48:13,765
returns
to cast the dragon into the lake of fire.
992
00:48:13,932 --> 00:48:17,978
And that really fits with this whole theme
of to him who overcomes, right,
993
00:48:18,186 --> 00:48:21,607
which is like the one of the big threads
going through all of this.
994
00:48:21,607 --> 00:48:22,608
Yeah.
995
00:48:22,608 --> 00:48:25,777
Which which would kind of,
you would kind of lose that
996
00:48:25,777 --> 00:48:26,570
if you were saying, oh,
997
00:48:26,570 --> 00:48:29,573
this is something that's going to happen
at some point in the future.
998
00:48:29,781 --> 00:48:32,576
You kind of you kind of lose
some some of the story there, don’t you?
999
00:48:32,576 --> 00:48:33,452
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker:
00:48:33,452 --> 00:48:34,786
And I just think Revelation
Speaker:
00:48:34,786 --> 00:48:37,789
12 doesn't allow you to go there
because it kind of makes it helps.
Speaker:
00:48:37,789 --> 00:48:41,460
It grounds us by making it pretty explicit
that all this stuff about beasts
Speaker:
00:48:42,002 --> 00:48:45,714
is not just something in the future,
but it's the whole program of the dragon.
Speaker:
00:48:46,048 --> 00:48:49,593
While he's very angry
that Jesus rose from the dead, right?
Speaker:
00:48:50,093 --> 00:48:53,430
So that's so interesting, though,
because I know, like a lot of people
Speaker:
00:48:53,430 --> 00:48:56,433
are going to disagree with that
because they're going to push this into
Speaker:
00:48:56,600 --> 00:48:58,644
an era out there somewhere, you know?
Speaker:
00:48:58,644 --> 00:49:00,520
Yeah,
I think it's hard to do that when you
Speaker:
00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:05,359
when you read Revelation 12 and say,
it seems to be trying to set up
Speaker:
00:49:05,359 --> 00:49:08,362
for all the stuff
that the dragon is doing.
Speaker:
00:49:08,528 --> 00:49:10,614
Yeah, yeah,
that that makes a lot of sense.
Speaker:
00:49:10,614 --> 00:49:12,115
Yeah, so we kind of had
Speaker:
00:49:12,115 --> 00:49:15,494
we got the lens that we started with
and that anchor point in the middle.
Speaker:
00:49:15,494 --> 00:49:19,039
Right with, with the, with the beast and,
and the dragon
Speaker:
00:49:19,331 --> 00:49:22,042
and then and of course,
the whole ending thing, which
Speaker:
00:49:22,042 --> 00:49:25,045
there's a, there's a whole package
there at the ending, you know, with the,
Speaker:
00:49:25,045 --> 00:49:26,964
the temple and Eden themes.
Speaker:
00:49:26,964 --> 00:49:28,507
And again, got a whole episode on that
Speaker:
00:49:28,507 --> 00:49:30,842
that either has come out
or is going to come out soon.
Speaker:
00:49:30,842 --> 00:49:31,843
we just like Revelation.
Speaker:
00:49:31,843 --> 00:49:34,846
Our timing can be a little cyclical
or whatever.
Speaker:
00:49:35,097 --> 00:49:35,263
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:49:35,263 --> 00:49:37,849
We're still we don't know doesn't matter.
Speaker:
00:49:37,849 --> 00:49:41,019
But that that's that again is kind of like
we're tracing some arcs through,
Speaker:
00:49:41,103 --> 00:49:41,728
through the book
Speaker:
00:49:41,728 --> 00:49:45,607
that that hopefully will be some
frameworks that will be helpful for people
Speaker:
00:49:45,607 --> 00:49:46,775
as they dig into this.
Speaker:
00:49:46,775 --> 00:49:48,110
I think that's kind of the hope
Speaker:
00:49:48,110 --> 00:49:50,320
with with these episodes
that we've been doing on Revelation.
Speaker:
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:52,322
For one thing,
a lot of people ask that we do them,
Speaker:
00:49:52,322 --> 00:49:57,536
but the other is that people actually
will go to this book and read it again,
Speaker:
00:49:57,744 --> 00:50:00,914
and hopefully with, with some,
some helpful frameworks, and they can pull
Speaker:
00:50:00,914 --> 00:50:04,292
some pieces out and say, oh,
wow, that I should pay attention to that.
Speaker:
00:50:04,292 --> 00:50:06,461
Yeah.
You know, that matters. That's important.
Speaker:
00:50:06,461 --> 00:50:09,297
Is there anything else you want to add to
this as as we,
Speaker:
00:50:09,297 --> 00:50:11,174
bringing the package to a close.
Speaker:
00:50:11,174 --> 00:50:11,967
I don’t think so.
Speaker:
00:50:11,967 --> 00:50:16,221
So these are just three,
well two, the lens read the read
Speaker:
00:50:16,221 --> 00:50:19,766
the imagery of the book through the lens
of the seven letters to the churches,
Speaker:
00:50:20,392 --> 00:50:21,476
an anchor point in the middle.
Speaker:
00:50:21,476 --> 00:50:25,731
Remember that all the stuff
about the drag, the beasts and whatnot,
Speaker:
00:50:26,606 --> 00:50:30,736
is not just something to speculate
about the future, but it's at Revelation
Speaker:
00:50:30,736 --> 00:50:35,365
12, the story of the seed of the woman
and, you know, conquering the serpent.
Speaker:
00:50:35,907 --> 00:50:39,494
It's telling us all of this stuff
about beasts and false prophets and stuff.
Speaker:
00:50:39,786 --> 00:50:45,208
This is all what the dragon is doing
in this whole entire time, that he's
Speaker:
00:50:45,542 --> 00:50:48,545
knows he's been conquered, but hasn't yet
been thrown into the lake of fire.
Speaker:
00:50:48,587 --> 00:50:49,671
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:50:49,671 --> 00:50:51,840
So that
that just grounds us in the middle.
Speaker:
00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:56,053
And then in our other episode, the thing
that helps us at the end of the book
Speaker:
00:50:56,053 --> 00:51:01,808
is, is the final way that, the last vision
of the New Jerusalem, new creation,
Speaker:
00:51:03,101 --> 00:51:05,437
weaves ties
together the whole story of the Bible.
Speaker:
00:51:05,437 --> 00:51:06,438
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:51:06,438 --> 00:51:07,856
Wow. That's powerful.
Speaker:
00:51:07,856 --> 00:51:09,608
This is, this is a lot.
Speaker:
00:51:09,608 --> 00:51:12,611
This is what I'm really hoping this will.
Speaker:
00:51:12,611 --> 00:51:12,944
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:51:12,944 --> 00:51:15,447
Encourage people
to to engage with this text.
Speaker:
00:51:15,447 --> 00:51:15,822
Again,
Speaker:
00:51:15,822 --> 00:51:18,825
I just want to thank you for all the time
you put into developing this material.
Speaker:
00:51:18,825 --> 00:51:20,535
I'm sure you know, it's
a decent amount of work.
Speaker:
00:51:20,535 --> 00:51:23,080
And, I appreciate you coming on
and sharing today.
Speaker:
00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:23,872
Thanks!
Speaker:
00:51:25,123 --> 00:51:27,918
Thanks for listening to this episode
with Paul Lamicela on
Speaker:
00:51:28,210 --> 00:51:31,213
the lens anchor
and ending of the Book of Revelation.
Speaker:
00:51:31,213 --> 00:51:34,174
We've done several other episodes
with Paul on this topic
Speaker:
00:51:34,174 --> 00:51:35,467
about the Book of Revelation,
Speaker:
00:51:35,467 --> 00:51:38,470
and you can find those linked
in the description down below.
Speaker:
00:51:38,512 --> 00:51:41,181
Of course, all our content is available
on our website
Speaker:
00:51:41,181 --> 00:51:44,559
at anabaptistperspectives.org,
and we also have a monthly
Speaker:
00:51:44,559 --> 00:51:47,562
email newsletter
you can sign up for on the website.
Speaker:
00:51:47,562 --> 00:51:50,440
Thanks again,
and we'll see you in the next episode.