Speaker: 00:01:26

The thing that's impressive to me

is that it was.

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This was not a dying church.

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They were growing by leaps and bounds and.

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people wanted to follow them

because of how

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remarkable and distinctive their life was.

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So I guess we can say that

some of them probably erred and probably

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really did go too far,

and in a way that was harmful.

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Nonetheless, this Commitment to being

spiritual athletes, as they called it,

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was tremendously effective

when it came to spreading the church.

00:02:01,913 --> 00:02:03,164

Well Lucas Hilty,

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thanks so much for coming on

the Anabaptist Perspectives podcast.

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you're currently teaching a course

on early Christianity in the East

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here at Faith Builders,

which is where we're at right now.

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And, yeah, before we jump into the topic,

which that's the topic for today.

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So more church history,

in that area of the world.

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But tell us a little bit about your

studies into the early church in the East.

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And, yeah,

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kind of some of the stuff

you're doing with this course,

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just give us

a little bit of context there.

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so I first came to study the church

in the East when I was,

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was interested in the beginnings of Islam

and realized that

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actually there were Christians

all around, all through Arabia

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at the time that Muhammad began to, well,

at the time the Koran was written.

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And so I was interested in who they were

and what kind of churches they had.

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And,

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that sort of led me through one thing

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and another, including through

reading this book, to study the churches,

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the Syriac speaking churches in the Middle

East, in the early centuries.

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And, so now in the course that we're

teaching here at Faith Builders.

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it is focusing on especially the growth

of those churches and how rapidly

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they spread, right through Asia

in the first centuries of the church.

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So when we say,

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yeah,

because I was looking at the course,

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course, outlines

and things, for this year

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at Faith Builders and saying,

you know, the church in the East

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or the growth of the church in the East,

I'm like, okay,

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who are we talking about here?

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Can we define like,

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what area of the world, who were

who were these people and and what era?

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Yeah, just give us some some broad strokes

of what we're talking about.

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Well, so if we step back and think

about the early church, of course

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at Pentecost there were people there

listening to Peter preach

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from really the known world,

including places like Parthia, Elam.

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And these are all like modern Iran.

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So Oh, that's a kind of a long ways away.

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Yeah.

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So there were Jewish communities

scattered throughout,

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you know, from the west to the east.

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And they were many of them were present

in Jerusalem at that time.

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So right from the the get go,

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there were Christians probably scattered

throughout these places.

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But and so in the early centuries

of the, of the church,

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there wasn't so

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much, concept of a church in the East

versus a church in the West.

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They all belong to what they referred to

as the Catholic Church,

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meaning the one, you know, Universal

Church of Christ.

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So, the church of the East,

the designation and the way to think about

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that is more

a matter of kind of two things.

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One is that, in the West,

the languages that were spoken

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mostly and used by the church

were Latin and Greek, a lot of Greek.

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And then but in the East

they also use Greek, but more Syriac,

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which is a form of Aramaic.

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And presumably we think Aramaic

is the language that Jesus spoke.

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And it was prevalent in places like Syria,

a modern day

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Syria, modern day

Turkey, and further east.

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And so one of the terms that's used

for the church of the East today is the,

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the Syriac Church, which is not, different

from the Syrian church.

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they weren't all Syrian,

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even though Syrian was a category

that they had back then, but they were

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generally like to use Aramaic.

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And so the Syriac Church,

Syriac became the language

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that these churches

would use for centuries.

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It was their liturgical language

and just the language that they preferred,

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to use for religious matters.

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And of course, there

there were then, starting in the

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especially the fifth century,

there were some divisions in the church.

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So these churches actually did leave,

what we now know as the Greek Orthodox

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Church, which wasn't really a category

per se at that time either.

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So they left and they had,

they were expelled, actually.

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And, so then they became

the church of the East,

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as we know them today.

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And so we're talking about very early

in the church's story here.

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Right, like very, very, very early.

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Can you give us a sense of, of

of some timelines here?

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So it's, it's again

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starting right in Acts two,

we probably have Christians,

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you know, in Mesopotamia

and Elam and Parthia and all those.

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So basically in Iran today,

this is, you know, the year 33 A.D.

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or something along those lines.

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we have records of established churches.

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These are organized churches with,

you know, bishops and deacons and so on.

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By the year 100 in Edessa,

which would become a really important

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Christian city, Edessa in modern day

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southeastern Turkey,

just across the border from Syria.

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at the same time, we also have,

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churches organized in what is now Iraq.

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And so by no more than 70 years

after Christ,

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we have not only Christians in these

places, but, you know, organized churches.

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and again, it's hard to get a good

we don't have tremendous

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documentary evidence

for these areas during these periods.

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But really, from the very earliest days

of the church, we have Christians

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in what we now know

as Iraq and Iran and Turkey.

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and by the way, and

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India as well, which is,

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it's also Asia, but it's a bit

of a different, area, obviously.

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That's pretty phenomenal, actually, that,

that's that's a long

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that, that's a large area, for,

for the gospel to,

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to travel,

especially at that time, you know.

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So, well,

yeah, I'm kind of surprised like that,

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that early, that many places so quickly.

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and you're saying some of that was,

you know, you're talking about in Acts 2

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where Peter is preaching and,

and there was these Jews from all around

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the known world that were coming into

Jerusalem at the time.

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That probably has a lot to do

with some of those early stages,

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I guess, or of growth, that you walk me

through that a little bit.

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This is kind of surprising.

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Oh, you're mentioning India, which is

really far away from Israel, you know.

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So, yeah. Walk me through that.

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well, there's a couple of ways

to think about this,

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but the Book of acts records the,

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it focuses on, really on Paul,

we have the story of Peter

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there as well, and some other evangelism,

but we see Paul taking the gospel.

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And of course, he started in Antioch,

which is kind of part of this eastern

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Syriac speaking territory.

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But then he went west throughout,

Asia minor into Greece and Macedonia.

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And I mean, just just to say,

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there's a reason

that the book of acts is preserved

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and some of the other stories

are not for us.

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I don't know what the reasons are.

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So I accept that.

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However, at the same time, as you know,

one apostle is taking the gospel West,

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the others are going other places,

some of them close to Judea

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and some of them far.

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And so the tradition is that the apostle

Thomas took the gospel.

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Well, first to Edessa maybe,

and then to India. So.

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So that's the, the missionary impulse,

if you will, of the early church.

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It was not just going with Paul.

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It was,

it was affecting all the apostles.

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Again, tradition has the apostles

sort of dividing out the world,

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and we

don't know exactly how they did that.

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And this isn't our topic today, but

Africa was a huge, area of evangelism.

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not only, North Africa,

where eventually we get Augustine

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and so on, but also,

you know, Egypt and Ethiopia.

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Ethiopia became a really rich, strong

Christian culture.

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so but that's going on.

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But the other thing to remember

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is that the, the, the world of that time,

we look at it, you know, from our modern

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perspective and we're aware of the world

around us to some extent.

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We're aware of other countries

and other peoples.

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And we tend to think that in the past,

because of limited communication

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and limited travel, that people were

not so aware of other cultures and other

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places.

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and there's probably some truth to that.

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But they really were they really were

connected to, other places and cultures.

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So Edessa, which I mentioned

earlier, the city which was the,

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the birthplace of Syriac as a language,

it was on one of the trade routes

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or on several of the trade routes

actually, between China going to, Turkey,

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as well as coming up from Palestine

and connecting to Antioch.

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So they had they had merchants,

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they had people

who traveled the Silk Route and so on.

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They already had the connections, that

sort of helped to facilitate the spread.

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So it wasn't it shouldn't actually seem,

even though it surprises us

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that the church spread like this.

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This was the kind of thing that,

merchants at least were doing already.

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They were traveling, to India.

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They were traveling to China.

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And so, Christians,

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either some of them,

some of the merchants were Christians,

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and some of the Christians

were sent out, as missionaries.

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They were essentially taking advantage

then of,

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of transportation systems, road

systems, things that were already there.

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And that allowed for some pretty

incredible growth right from the start.

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That's interesting.

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Okay.

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Yeah, that

but that is something now in the modern

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era, modern era, our era right now,

you know, we tend not to think of it

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quite like that, you know,

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because our evidence for the past is

limited and we we just look at it to me,

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it seems like we look at the past,

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like we look backwards through binoculars

and everything just gets really small,

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because that's kind of the nature

of the evidence that has come to us.

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We just get fragments of what

that life was really like.

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And the other part of this, though,

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is that Jewish communities had been spread

throughout that whole region as well,

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through deportations under the Persians,

especially under the Assyrians.

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And then they were spread

throughout the Persian Empire as well.

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Of course, we have that

in the Book of Esther and other places.

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So many of them stayed in these places

and had thriving Jewish communities,

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and that those became

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part of the sort of richness

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and strength of the Eastern Church,

as well as the bane of the Eastern Church.

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In some ways, theologically, they would

they would, they had to wrestle

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with what it meant

to follow God in Christ.

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And some of,

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and they had to negotiate that

with their Jewish interlocutors.

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So, so that, that was good broad strokes.

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What we're talking about with the East

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and when this was I mean like immediately

after really the, the crucifixion.

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tell us a favorite story

that you have from the Eastern Church.

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That kind of is a, I don't know,

a good example

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of what we're talking about here.

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So unfortunately,

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we don't get a lot of stories,

from the church during that time.

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We have a few sort of church orders,

like where they would

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they would describe

what church life should be and how bishops

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00:12:35,171 --> 00:12:38,299

and widows and regular

Christians should behave.

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so that gives us a glimpse

into their lives.

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One of my favorite,

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sources for the church in this time

is something

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that Kreider talks about in the patient

ferment of the early church.

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It's called the Didascalia Apostolorum,

the teaching of the apostles

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and it's a 26 chapter.

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yeah.

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Just kind of a letter to the churches

saying, here's how you should

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dress,

here's how you should sit in church.

216

00:13:03,824 --> 00:13:06,869

Here's what the bishop should do

to keep peace, etc., etc..

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And, you know,

there are times when when the author

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00:13:10,831 --> 00:13:13,834

feels a little harsh to us, maybe moderns,

219

00:13:14,210 --> 00:13:18,297

But you really get a sense

for the humanity, of those people.

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00:13:18,339 --> 00:13:20,925

You know,

they were just people like we are.

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00:13:20,925 --> 00:13:26,013

and as well as you get a sense for how

daily their life was and they weren't.

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We might talk about this more later,

but they weren't all monks.

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They weren't all living off on a mountain

in a wilderness.

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some of them were,

but some of them were were going to work

225

00:13:38,734 --> 00:13:42,071

plying their trades,

trying to decide when they come home

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00:13:42,071 --> 00:13:43,948

whether they should stop and watch

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00:13:43,948 --> 00:13:47,201

what's going on in the marketplace

and maybe get into trouble or not.

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So they you get a picture of

sort of the way Christianity was working

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its way out.

230

00:13:52,540 --> 00:13:55,417

in let's say

this was a third century document.

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So third century Syria.

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00:13:57,920 --> 00:13:59,255

Oh, yeah, that's interesting.

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00:13:59,255 --> 00:14:02,758

Like, because history being so removed,

it's easy to just

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00:14:03,801 --> 00:14:06,136

make these characterizations

of what it was like back then.

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But to remember these were just regular

people trying to do church, trying

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00:14:10,182 --> 00:14:15,646

to live a normal life like we are today,

so maybe a a bit of a segue off of that,

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00:14:15,646 --> 00:14:19,149

then, you know,

these people that are very fresh,

238

00:14:19,149 --> 00:14:21,610

I guess you could say off

of what has happened

239

00:14:21,610 --> 00:14:24,864

with the crucifixion of Jesus the early,

you know, spreading of the church.

240

00:14:25,239 --> 00:14:29,618

What are the things that we as,

present day Anabaptists,

241

00:14:29,702 --> 00:14:32,580

you know, as present day

Christians learned from these people

242

00:14:32,580 --> 00:14:36,083

who were just regular people, you know,

going about normal life in a lot of ways,

243

00:14:36,083 --> 00:14:37,918

trying to figure out this thing

called church,

244

00:14:37,918 --> 00:14:40,921

this thing called Christianity

in the very, very early years.

245

00:14:41,422 --> 00:14:43,215

You know, what's the few things

we can learn from them?

246

00:14:44,633 --> 00:14:45,551

We haven't talked about

247

00:14:45,551 --> 00:14:49,346

the ascetic

strain of Eastern Christianity.

248

00:14:49,346 --> 00:14:52,349

very much, but,

249

00:14:52,433 --> 00:14:54,351

many of the records and the letters

250

00:14:54,351 --> 00:14:58,355

and books that have been passed down to us

came from, well, the people who

251

00:14:59,148 --> 00:15:01,400

who made it

their business to read and write.

252

00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:03,277

So not everybody did that.

253

00:15:03,277 --> 00:15:07,156

But the people who tended to read

and write a lot were the monks or the.

254

00:15:07,364 --> 00:15:08,073

There was a group

255

00:15:08,073 --> 00:15:11,076

called the Sons of Covenant, Sons

and daughters of the covenant, actually,

256

00:15:11,076 --> 00:15:15,122

because women were included

and so much of what they did

257

00:15:15,122 --> 00:15:19,335

was church work and working with the Bible

and writing things.

258

00:15:20,210 --> 00:15:22,421

So, they passed down to us

259

00:15:22,421 --> 00:15:26,550

stories and, and teachings about a very,

260

00:15:27,551 --> 00:15:30,554

rigorous approach to self-denial,

261

00:15:30,596 --> 00:15:34,808

to, to renouncing human society

as a whole.

262

00:15:35,726 --> 00:15:39,730

by that I mean not people, but

but normal ways of doing things.

263

00:15:39,730 --> 00:15:43,692

So normally you get up and

you take a shower and you trim your hair,

264

00:15:43,692 --> 00:15:47,863

but not if you're a monk, because,

you want to kind of renounce the,

265

00:15:48,864 --> 00:15:51,575

the sort of normal comforts of life,

266

00:15:51,575 --> 00:15:54,578

because you're doing battle

with your passions.

267

00:15:54,745 --> 00:15:57,706

And so the way that this answers

or the reason I'm

268

00:15:57,706 --> 00:16:00,668

mentioning this in response

to, your question, is that

269

00:16:01,043 --> 00:16:04,338

I'm really challenged by,

you know, sometimes

270

00:16:04,463 --> 00:16:07,967

their way of life seems strange,

maybe mistaken to me,

271

00:16:09,051 --> 00:16:12,137

but at least

I think we can say on their best

272

00:16:12,137 --> 00:16:15,265

days, the reason they were doing

it was because they loved the Lord.

273

00:16:15,265 --> 00:16:16,517

And they were.

274

00:16:16,517 --> 00:16:19,520

They took it 110% seriously.

275

00:16:19,770 --> 00:16:22,773

Their faith, it affected.

276

00:16:23,315 --> 00:16:27,027

And even the ones

who weren't, monks on a mountain,

277

00:16:28,112 --> 00:16:31,115

they just felt like

it was an all consuming passion

278

00:16:31,490 --> 00:16:37,913

to pursue the Lord, to pursue holiness

and to to live

279

00:16:37,913 --> 00:16:43,293

what they called the evangelical life,

which was not, easy believeism.

280

00:16:43,293 --> 00:16:46,296

It was a life that was patterned

after the gospel.

281

00:16:46,797 --> 00:16:49,591

So, that became,

282

00:16:50,676 --> 00:16:51,468

I think,

283

00:16:51,468 --> 00:16:55,347

really their genius

when it comes to missions, it wasn't

284

00:16:55,347 --> 00:16:59,727

the fact that they were so,

so easy to join

285

00:17:00,352 --> 00:17:02,813

or that they required so little.

286

00:17:02,813 --> 00:17:05,816

It was the fact that they were such

a remarkable people.

287

00:17:05,983 --> 00:17:10,946

and again, and possibly in some,

they possibly overdid it.

288

00:17:10,946 --> 00:17:13,949

They possibly misapplied some scripture

and so on, but nonetheless,

289

00:17:14,033 --> 00:17:17,870

they demonstrated that they had overcome,

you know,

290

00:17:19,580 --> 00:17:23,125

the they had overcome almost human nature

291

00:17:23,625 --> 00:17:26,628

in their fasting, in their,

292

00:17:27,504 --> 00:17:30,174

in their, ascetic activity.

293

00:17:30,174 --> 00:17:31,925

Now, they still had human nature,

294

00:17:31,925 --> 00:17:34,928

but they had overcome

that sort of normal way of life.

295

00:17:35,054 --> 00:17:37,264

And people admired that.

They believed that

296

00:17:37,264 --> 00:17:40,893

this was a demonstration of,

you know, God's power at work.

297

00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:46,065

And so, I think we can learn

I can learn from this, that,

298

00:17:47,441 --> 00:17:49,485

this the,

299

00:17:49,485 --> 00:17:54,823

secret to to growing as a Christian

and the secret to being more effective in

300

00:17:54,907 --> 00:17:59,161

the kingdom is not to sort of chill

and just just,

301

00:17:59,161 --> 00:18:03,123

float down the river of life,

but it is to embrace

302

00:18:03,665 --> 00:18:07,461

hard things, embrace

sort of the difficulty of God's call.

303

00:18:08,045 --> 00:18:10,589

And, but to do that

304

00:18:10,589 --> 00:18:13,592

not in some sort of grim,

305

00:18:14,510 --> 00:18:16,345

sad way of life,

306

00:18:16,345 --> 00:18:20,766

but to do it with kind of all that,

the burning fire of the presence of God.

307

00:18:21,391 --> 00:18:24,394

And if I if that sounds hyperbolic,

308

00:18:25,354 --> 00:18:28,357

this is how they talked about it,

their poetry,

309

00:18:28,690 --> 00:18:31,693

they produced beautiful poetry.

310

00:18:32,194 --> 00:18:33,779

and they showed that

311

00:18:33,779 --> 00:18:38,075

they were yearning for what I think

Tozer calls the white hot

312

00:18:38,450 --> 00:18:41,120

presence of the throne of God.

313

00:18:41,120 --> 00:18:44,289

And that that's what stirs me up

and what makes me think

314

00:18:44,873 --> 00:18:46,166

I want to learn from these people.

315

00:18:46,166 --> 00:18:47,584

I don't necessarily necessarily

316

00:18:47,584 --> 00:18:51,338

need to be just like them, but I want to

learn some of that from them.

317

00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:53,173

so you

318

00:18:53,173 --> 00:18:56,176

mentioned the asceticism that they had.

319

00:18:56,218 --> 00:18:59,221

You want to walk us through that a bit,

you know.

320

00:18:59,555 --> 00:19:00,597

What was that element?

321

00:19:00,597 --> 00:19:05,018

Or other major components

that stand out to you as this was

322

00:19:05,018 --> 00:19:09,148

something that was a core piece of who

these people were.

323

00:19:09,481 --> 00:19:12,025

Walk us through some of those things.

324

00:19:12,025 --> 00:19:15,696

So the asceticism of the church

of the East, or the, I should say,

325

00:19:15,696 --> 00:19:20,617

of the Syriac Church, is it's

one of the things that comes through

326

00:19:20,617 --> 00:19:23,662

most strongly in the documents

and things that are left to us.

327

00:19:26,999 --> 00:19:27,749

This is why

328

00:19:27,749 --> 00:19:31,044

I like the Didascalia Apostolorum

and so I mentioned that

329

00:19:31,044 --> 00:19:34,506

because that helps to balance out

all the ascetic documents.

330

00:19:34,506 --> 00:19:36,675

So not everybody,

331

00:19:36,675 --> 00:19:39,970

practiced asceticism in the way

that some of these documents describe.

332

00:19:40,512 --> 00:19:43,599

But, when Jesus said

333

00:19:43,932 --> 00:19:46,560

to sell all you have and give to the poor,

334

00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:50,856

when he said that those who enter

the kingdom of heaven are

335

00:19:50,939 --> 00:19:53,859

they don't marry or are given a marriage,

they are like the angels of heaven.

336

00:19:55,861 --> 00:19:56,778

these folks

337

00:19:56,778 --> 00:20:00,824

took that and asked,

how could we, let me live that way?

338

00:20:01,700 --> 00:20:04,328

And so

339

00:20:04,328 --> 00:20:05,579

there was a, became

340

00:20:05,579 --> 00:20:08,874

a tradition of, the monks of Syria

341

00:20:09,374 --> 00:20:12,377

living rather extreme lives.

342

00:20:12,669 --> 00:20:15,505

so they would, they would,

343

00:20:15,505 --> 00:20:19,384

renounce, you know, the comforts

of a house, the comforts of society.

344

00:20:19,384 --> 00:20:23,263

Like, sometimes they would have

calling hours because lots of people

345

00:20:23,263 --> 00:20:25,807

wanted to come talk to them

and ask them to pray for them.

346

00:20:25,807 --> 00:20:27,976

And they'd say, well,

only in the afternoon,

347

00:20:27,976 --> 00:20:30,938

you know, in between these hours,

348

00:20:30,938 --> 00:20:33,398

they did lots of things

that seem extreme to us.

349

00:20:33,398 --> 00:20:37,778

A guy who had built himself

sort of a wooden box,

350

00:20:38,111 --> 00:20:40,113

I didn't

the description is kind of hard to follow.

351

00:20:40,113 --> 00:20:41,573

He had these wheels and these wheels,

352

00:20:41,573 --> 00:20:46,036

and he kind of lay in the middle in a

in a cell where he couldn't sit up.

353

00:20:46,203 --> 00:20:48,872

He never could stretch out.

And that's how he.

354

00:20:48,872 --> 00:20:52,501

I'm not sure if he stayed there 24 seven,

but he prayed in there.

355

00:20:52,542 --> 00:20:55,671

a story of the guy who was that?

356

00:20:55,712 --> 00:21:00,092

The two monks who were on the side

of a mountain and, one was reading

357

00:21:00,092 --> 00:21:04,596

the gospel to the other and,

and then he, the one

358

00:21:04,596 --> 00:21:09,393

the reader said to the other one,

the other one was his name was Eusebius.

359

00:21:09,559 --> 00:21:12,604

The reader said to Eusebius,

so explain to me what I just read to you.

360

00:21:12,604 --> 00:21:13,605

Tell me what this means.

361

00:21:13,605 --> 00:21:15,983

And Eusebius said,

oh, sorry, could you repeat that?

362

00:21:17,192 --> 00:21:18,235

And the reader says to

363

00:21:18,235 --> 00:21:22,072

Eusebius brother,

you've been so busy watching the plowman

364

00:21:22,072 --> 00:21:25,200

down in the valley that you're not even

paying attention to the scriptures.

365

00:21:25,659 --> 00:21:27,244

And I scolded him a little bit.

366

00:21:27,244 --> 00:21:30,247

And Eusebius was so convicted by that,

he said, all right,

367

00:21:30,330 --> 00:21:33,000

I will never look at the the valley below.

368

00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:35,168

I'll never look at the stars above.

369

00:21:35,168 --> 00:21:39,965

And for the 40 years that he lived

after that, he would walk.

370

00:21:40,549 --> 00:21:45,887

The story goes, a path as narrow

as a hand breadth, to go to church.

371

00:21:45,887 --> 00:21:48,432

Because he did go to church

and go back to his cell.

372

00:21:48,432 --> 00:21:54,688

He wore heavy chains so that he, didn't

so that he would be bowed down

373

00:21:54,688 --> 00:21:57,816

so he wouldn't see the sun

and or the moon and stars and so on.

374

00:21:59,109 --> 00:22:00,235

these stories seem extreme.

375

00:22:00,235 --> 00:22:03,238

They seem unhealthy to us sometimes.

376

00:22:03,530 --> 00:22:06,533

But again, I think they're coming

from a place of really trying to do battle

377

00:22:06,533 --> 00:22:07,576

with your own passions.

378

00:22:07,576 --> 00:22:10,704

And when you talk to this monk,

he wouldn't say it's

379

00:22:10,704 --> 00:22:12,331

sin to look at the stars.

380

00:22:12,331 --> 00:22:13,749

He would say,

381

00:22:13,749 --> 00:22:18,295

I am trying to exercise myself to say

no to myself so the devil can't get me

382

00:22:18,295 --> 00:22:21,423

were it really counts,

you know, in anger or lust or something.

383

00:22:22,049 --> 00:22:24,468

So whether he was wise to do that or not,

384

00:22:24,468 --> 00:22:28,805

it was this kind of thing that prevailed

385

00:22:28,805 --> 00:22:31,808

for a time in, in monasticism, in eastern,

386

00:22:31,933 --> 00:22:34,895

in Syria.

387

00:22:34,895 --> 00:22:36,438

it seems to me possible

388

00:22:36,438 --> 00:22:40,025

that they were somewhat

they took the gospel

389

00:22:40,484 --> 00:22:43,445

and then they were kind of interpreting

the gospel

390

00:22:43,445 --> 00:22:46,531

in the terms of their religious context.

391

00:22:46,531 --> 00:22:51,286

So they were in a very multi

in a very diverse religious context.

392

00:22:51,286 --> 00:22:55,165

There were Zoroastrians,

there were Jews, there were Manicheans

393

00:22:55,165 --> 00:22:58,085

eventually, and Marcionites,

there were Gnostics.

394

00:22:58,085 --> 00:23:03,048

And so all these people,

many of them, had sort of a disdain

395

00:23:03,048 --> 00:23:08,178

for the body

and had a belief that the goal in life

396

00:23:08,178 --> 00:23:13,266

was to rise above the constraints

of human nature and physicality. So

397

00:23:14,643 --> 00:23:15,477

you wonder

398

00:23:15,477 --> 00:23:19,272

if the monks, were, were,

maybe unconsciously

399

00:23:19,272 --> 00:23:22,484

mixing some of that into the gospel

in the way

400

00:23:22,484 --> 00:23:25,195

that they responded.

401

00:23:25,195 --> 00:23:25,487

that they responded.

402

00:23:25,654 --> 00:23:28,532

I feel like some of this

has been kind of the mountain path.

403

00:23:28,532 --> 00:23:32,160

No, that's that's good though,

because that's helpful context of like,

404

00:23:32,494 --> 00:23:35,580

this is one of the things this,

if I'm understanding correctly,

405

00:23:35,789 --> 00:23:40,794

one of the things that this era and region

of Christianity is remembered for.

406

00:23:41,253 --> 00:23:41,795

Right.

407

00:23:41,795 --> 00:23:44,131

and again, like you were saying,

we look at that.

408

00:23:44,131 --> 00:23:46,425

Whoa, that feels kind of bizarre.

409

00:23:46,425 --> 00:23:48,427

but it did happen.

And it's part of the story.

410

00:23:48,427 --> 00:23:51,680

well, yeah,

I mean, it's kind of intriguing, like, I'm

411

00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:54,808

listening to this like, wow, okay, that's

that's that's pretty serious.

412

00:23:54,933 --> 00:23:57,436

You know, regardless of,

413

00:23:57,436 --> 00:24:00,564

like you said, maybe, you know,

we can debate whether it was wise or not.

414

00:24:00,564 --> 00:24:00,897

Whatever.

415

00:24:00,897 --> 00:24:03,859

But,

they were taking this very seriously.

416

00:24:03,859 --> 00:24:06,695

It seems like to me. they were. And,

417

00:24:08,488 --> 00:24:10,615

you do see

418

00:24:10,615 --> 00:24:14,161

the church as a whole exercising

something of a moderating influence.

419

00:24:14,703 --> 00:24:19,458

There's a famous, probably One of the most

famous monks of Syria, for sure.

420

00:24:19,833 --> 00:24:23,503

Simon Stylites, Simon or Simeon

421

00:24:23,503 --> 00:24:28,550

who lived on a, a stylus or a pillar for.

422

00:24:29,009 --> 00:24:30,719

I don't remember, decades.

423

00:24:30,719 --> 00:24:32,971

and actually, he lived on several.

424

00:24:32,971 --> 00:24:34,347

He kept building them higher.

425

00:24:34,347 --> 00:24:37,309

And the reason he did this, ostensibly,

was to get away from all the people

426

00:24:37,309 --> 00:24:40,687

who kept crowding him and taking away

his concentration on prayer.

427

00:24:41,188 --> 00:24:45,775

But so he lives on a pillar and,

Before he did that.

428

00:24:45,775 --> 00:24:49,321

He was

he lived with other monks, for a time.

429

00:24:49,779 --> 00:24:54,117

And they eventually they had to tell him

to back off like he would.

430

00:24:54,117 --> 00:24:57,120

He wore, wrapped a cord around himself

431

00:24:57,162 --> 00:24:59,831

that was infected, with something,

and it made him sick.

432

00:24:59,831 --> 00:25:03,460

And he did this intentionally, you know,

he would do things just intentionally

433

00:25:04,753 --> 00:25:05,962

suffer.

434

00:25:05,962 --> 00:25:08,965

and the other monks said, Simeon,

You've gone too far.

435

00:25:09,591 --> 00:25:11,092

This kind of thing happened,

436

00:25:11,092 --> 00:25:14,679

sort of progressively

and repeatedly as the church said.

437

00:25:15,472 --> 00:25:17,724

No, it actually counts

438

00:25:17,724 --> 00:25:21,019

as fasting

if you, you know, skip a few meals.

439

00:25:21,061 --> 00:25:23,146

you do what you can take.

440

00:25:23,146 --> 00:25:25,732

You don't have to feel obligated

to sort of

441

00:25:25,732 --> 00:25:28,777

reach this ideal of the monk

who eats once a week or so.

442

00:25:29,236 --> 00:25:33,406

So, I think we actually see some maturity

developing in the church.

443

00:25:33,406 --> 00:25:36,201

And one of the factors of that is,

as I mentioned,

444

00:25:36,201 --> 00:25:38,912

so Manichaenism was really powerful in

445

00:25:38,912 --> 00:25:42,582

in this region of the world

as well as Marcionites and so on.

446

00:25:43,250 --> 00:25:46,419

There were times

when they, they would say, Christians

447

00:25:46,419 --> 00:25:49,589

would say to their people, look,

if you're traveling, you go into the city,

448

00:25:50,090 --> 00:25:54,052

don't just walk into a church

because the prevalent church of that area

449

00:25:54,052 --> 00:25:58,807

might be Manichee, Manichean,

or it might be some Gnostic sect.

450

00:25:58,807 --> 00:26:01,935

So the what we would know

as the Orthodox Christians

451

00:26:01,935 --> 00:26:05,105

or the the Christians who are,

452

00:26:06,064 --> 00:26:09,317

who later became the church of the East

were a minority among these groups,

453

00:26:09,317 --> 00:26:13,238

at times even even a minority among those

who said they were Christians.

454

00:26:13,863 --> 00:26:16,241

So there was a lot of diversity

in that respect.

455

00:26:16,241 --> 00:26:19,077

And, I think it's in that context

456

00:26:19,077 --> 00:26:22,080

that, we see

457

00:26:22,539 --> 00:26:25,750

in the early Syriac Church,

there was a period where it was common

458

00:26:25,750 --> 00:26:30,213

for people to renounce marriage

or if they were married, to renounce

459

00:26:30,213 --> 00:26:34,593

sexual relationships with their spouse,

in order to receive baptism.

460

00:26:34,593 --> 00:26:39,472

So you you had to be celibate

to be baptized in some of these groups.

461

00:26:39,472 --> 00:26:43,518

And again,

since the information is sketchy,

462

00:26:43,518 --> 00:26:46,563

it's hard to say to what extent

that that was the case.

463

00:26:47,314 --> 00:26:50,317

And again, in the Didascalia Apostolorum

we actually see pushback

464

00:26:50,317 --> 00:26:52,152

against that sort of thing.

465

00:26:52,152 --> 00:26:54,613

but but that was

466

00:26:54,613 --> 00:26:58,992

at least a common idea

of, of a way to live out your Christianity

467

00:26:58,992 --> 00:27:03,079

is to renounce this sort of fleshly,

matter of marriage.

468

00:27:03,913 --> 00:27:05,332

And they had

469

00:27:05,332 --> 00:27:07,834

they could look to,

you know, first Corinthians seven,

470

00:27:07,834 --> 00:27:13,006

they can look to Jesus’ comment about the

resurrection for justification for this,

471

00:27:14,174 --> 00:27:16,551

there are other scriptures that they

probably should have looked at as well.

472

00:27:16,551 --> 00:27:20,513

But but yeah,

this was part of their their worldview.

473

00:27:20,513 --> 00:27:24,059

And the thing that just to repeat myself,

the thing that's impressive to me

474

00:27:24,059 --> 00:27:28,563

is that it was

this was not a dying church.

475

00:27:28,897 --> 00:27:34,152

This was not a church

that, was the shakers, you know,

476

00:27:34,152 --> 00:27:38,907

of the US dying out because they,

they were too severe or didn't propagate.

477

00:27:39,282 --> 00:27:42,285

they were growing by leaps and bounds and

478

00:27:43,536 --> 00:27:45,789

Sub Hamaran, who's,

479

00:27:45,789 --> 00:27:49,167

a writer from the sixth century in Iraq

says,

480

00:27:49,959 --> 00:27:54,506

look, it was it was the way the fathers

or the earlier Christians,

481

00:27:54,506 --> 00:27:58,093

the way they lived, the way they dressed,

drew attention to themselves.

482

00:27:58,093 --> 00:28:01,054

And people were,

people wanted to follow them

483

00:28:01,096 --> 00:28:05,058

because of how remarkable

and distinctive their life was.

484

00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:08,895

And, so I guess we can say that

some of them probably erred

485

00:28:08,895 --> 00:28:12,065

and probably really did go too far

and in a way that was harmful.

486

00:28:12,691 --> 00:28:15,902

Nonetheless, this, this, this commitment

487

00:28:15,902 --> 00:28:18,905

to being spiritual athletes,

as they called it,

488

00:28:19,155 --> 00:28:22,659

was tremendously effective

when it came to, spreading the church.

489

00:28:24,077 --> 00:28:25,078

Yeah, that that is

490

00:28:25,078 --> 00:28:28,081

that is really something actually

like that's kind of surprising to me.

491

00:28:29,582 --> 00:28:31,668

as bizarre as some of this stuff was,

492

00:28:31,668 --> 00:28:34,671

it it seems I'm again

speculating here, but

493

00:28:35,839 --> 00:28:40,510

this is a very early years of the church,

as they're trying to figure out

494

00:28:40,969 --> 00:28:44,264

how to do this thing called church and

following Jesus, and you get some kind of

495

00:28:44,764 --> 00:28:46,307

kind of some bizarre things.

496

00:28:46,307 --> 00:28:49,811

But regardless,

it feels seemed like it was very earnest

497

00:28:49,811 --> 00:28:52,856

and, attractive to society around them.

498

00:28:52,856 --> 00:28:54,357

And that strikes me as like, oh, wow.

499

00:28:54,357 --> 00:28:57,068

You know,

there's a lesson there for us, right?

500

00:28:57,068 --> 00:28:58,528

Yeah.

501

00:28:58,528 --> 00:28:59,154

Yeah, I don't know.

502

00:28:59,154 --> 00:29:01,281

And maybe,

maybe I'm a little bit off there, but

503

00:29:01,281 --> 00:29:03,241

but do you get a sense of that

where it's like,

504

00:29:03,241 --> 00:29:07,245

this is people that are trying to

figure it out, like how do we do church?

505

00:29:07,245 --> 00:29:09,080

How do we do following Jesus?

506

00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:10,790

Is that a good way of saying it?

507

00:29:10,790 --> 00:29:12,459

I guess I think that's right.

508

00:29:12,459 --> 00:29:16,254

I think significantly the, the,

509

00:29:17,297 --> 00:29:18,631

the reinterpretations

510

00:29:18,631 --> 00:29:22,469

or the other interpretations of the gospel

were a factor here.

511

00:29:22,469 --> 00:29:26,681

So Marcion saying the God of the Old

Testament is not the God that we follow.

512

00:29:26,681 --> 00:29:28,516

We follow the God who sent Jesus,

513

00:29:28,516 --> 00:29:32,562

the Manichees who saw the physical world

as evil.

514

00:29:32,562 --> 00:29:36,566

The the, Gnostics

who also saw the physical world as evil.

515

00:29:37,275 --> 00:29:40,403

So some scholars would say that,

oh, these were all just

516

00:29:40,403 --> 00:29:43,448

different kinds of Christianity,

and they were just all duking it out.

517

00:29:43,448 --> 00:29:44,741

And eventually one side won.

518

00:29:44,741 --> 00:29:47,410

And that's why we have the Orthodox

Christians today.

519

00:29:47,410 --> 00:29:53,291

Now, this isn't how the

the Christians at that time saw it.

520

00:29:53,708 --> 00:29:57,170

And,

I think the record reflects that there was

521

00:29:57,170 --> 00:30:01,341

a sort of a message

that came right from the apostles

522

00:30:01,758 --> 00:30:06,805

that was understood by those who heard it

to be a cohesive, way of life.

523

00:30:07,180 --> 00:30:09,974

what some would call the Kerygma

524

00:30:09,974 --> 00:30:12,977

or the, the deposit of faith

that was passed down.

525

00:30:13,186 --> 00:30:15,063

So there was that.

526

00:30:15,063 --> 00:30:18,525

But there were these sort of pressures

and competing influences.

527

00:30:18,525 --> 00:30:22,779

And somebody says, just as that happens

still today, the fact that we have,

528

00:30:23,446 --> 00:30:26,449

you know, understandings of Christianity

handed down for,

529

00:30:26,574 --> 00:30:30,578

for a long time from good sources doesn't

mean that somebody won't pop up and say,

530

00:30:30,829 --> 00:30:33,790

no, I actually have new

insight, special revelation.

531

00:30:34,874 --> 00:30:36,167

They did have less history, though.

532

00:30:36,167 --> 00:30:37,460

They were pretty new to the faith.

533

00:30:37,460 --> 00:30:40,547

And so they had less history than then.

534

00:30:40,672 --> 00:30:43,258

well, than we do today

or than the church would later.

535

00:30:43,258 --> 00:30:47,512

And that did mean that possibly

it was more open season for

536

00:30:48,012 --> 00:30:51,015

for reinterpretations and for,

537

00:30:51,808 --> 00:30:53,101

heresies.

538

00:30:53,101 --> 00:30:56,354

But what impresses me about

even these fairly early writers

539

00:30:56,354 --> 00:30:59,774

that one of my favorites is Aphrahat,

who is, again, Iraqi,

540

00:31:00,233 --> 00:31:03,236

or Persian and,

541

00:31:03,611 --> 00:31:06,614

his, his, writing is just

542

00:31:07,282 --> 00:31:10,243

a compilation of scripture references

it seems like.

543

00:31:10,451 --> 00:31:13,037

A lot of it was Old Testament,

but but also New Testament.

544

00:31:13,037 --> 00:31:18,293

And so from pretty early on, we have they

they treat, the Gospels

545

00:31:18,293 --> 00:31:21,796

and they treat the epistles of Paul

as authoritative scripture.

546

00:31:21,796 --> 00:31:24,883

And they're not

they're not dividing them out.

547

00:31:25,174 --> 00:31:30,263

They're just they're just, combining

them all in a holistic, approach.

548

00:31:31,097 --> 00:31:33,474

In other words, they see Scripture,

549

00:31:33,474 --> 00:31:36,477

including the New Testament, as a unity.

550

00:31:36,519 --> 00:31:37,729

And they hadn't ironed out

551

00:31:37,729 --> 00:31:40,732

exactly what all was included

in the New Testament, maybe at that time.

552

00:31:40,815 --> 00:31:43,401

But the things that they did

agree were New Testament.

553

00:31:43,401 --> 00:31:47,155

They saw that as,

554

00:31:47,155 --> 00:31:50,158

yeah, as unified,

sending a unified message.

555

00:31:50,325 --> 00:31:53,328

So I'm not sure if that answers

your question, but,

556

00:31:53,536 --> 00:31:56,539

it does seem to me that at least

in their own self understanding,

557

00:31:57,165 --> 00:32:01,002

there was a, a, clarity

about the apostolic message.

558

00:32:02,253 --> 00:32:04,172

So sometimes the people who

559

00:32:04,172 --> 00:32:07,175

possessed

that clarity may have been a minority.

560

00:32:07,967 --> 00:32:11,679

So before we were recording this,

this podcast, we had had lunch and,

561

00:32:11,888 --> 00:32:15,266

you'd mentioned just some of the key

things that had stuck out to you,

562

00:32:15,266 --> 00:32:19,771

about the Syriac Church or the church

in the East, etc., in this era.

563

00:32:20,063 --> 00:32:23,107

And one of the things you mentioned

was the literacy, component,

564

00:32:23,191 --> 00:32:24,692

and we didn't really get into it too much.

565

00:32:24,692 --> 00:32:25,818

So I wanted to ask you about that.

566

00:32:25,818 --> 00:32:29,447

Like, how did literacy affect

567

00:32:29,948 --> 00:32:32,951

that form of Christianity

or how to Christianity affect literacy?

568

00:32:32,951 --> 00:32:34,160

How did that all work?

569

00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:36,204

And what does that tell us today?

570

00:32:36,204 --> 00:32:36,913

Yeah.

571

00:32:36,913 --> 00:32:40,416

The the, matter of literacy

is just personally interesting to me.

572

00:32:40,416 --> 00:32:45,505

And so in the early church as a whole, as

I understand it, there was an emphasis on

573

00:32:46,381 --> 00:32:49,759

hearing the Bible or reading it, engaging

with Scripture in whatever way you could.

574

00:32:50,885 --> 00:32:52,595

Probably many

575

00:32:52,595 --> 00:32:56,391

or a majority of people in the Roman

Empire at that time weren't literate,

576

00:32:56,808 --> 00:33:00,436

or at least weren't able to access

Scripture of their own.

577

00:33:00,895 --> 00:33:03,523

and that would have been likely the case

as well.

578

00:33:03,523 --> 00:33:06,526

In, in the east, in the Syriac areas.

579

00:33:06,818 --> 00:33:11,614

but in the year about 200,

we have a school established

580

00:33:11,614 --> 00:33:16,577

in, in Edessa, and the school

is there to train people to read

581

00:33:16,911 --> 00:33:20,999

and to train, those people

then to sort of,

582

00:33:22,250 --> 00:33:24,794

maybe be monks, maybe be church leaders.

583

00:33:24,794 --> 00:33:27,088

Although this is the year 200,

I don't know that there are many monks

584

00:33:27,088 --> 00:33:28,131

at this time.

585

00:33:28,131 --> 00:33:31,175

So it's really in the East

that we have the first

586

00:33:31,926 --> 00:33:34,846

or among the first Christian schools.

587

00:33:34,846 --> 00:33:37,890

It seems like in in the Roman Empire

and in the West,

588

00:33:37,974 --> 00:33:41,853

it was more a matter of if you can read,

you know, read the scriptures.

589

00:33:41,853 --> 00:33:44,647

Reading is good, reading is encouraged.

590

00:33:44,647 --> 00:33:45,940

but in the East,

591

00:33:45,940 --> 00:33:49,861

the Christians are actually setting up

schools and they run kind of like,

592

00:33:50,486 --> 00:33:55,074

like monasteries,

they have rules of conduct and so on.

593

00:33:55,074 --> 00:33:57,160

This is not just seen as a,

594

00:33:58,286 --> 00:34:00,580

place to go, for a couple

595

00:34:00,580 --> 00:34:02,999

hours every day just to learn reading,

writing, arithmetic.

596

00:34:02,999 --> 00:34:07,795

It's it's more of a, religious,

institution

597

00:34:08,337 --> 00:34:10,214

meant to train people to follow God.

598

00:34:10,214 --> 00:34:15,428

But, reading and the scriptures

are very important to these churches.

599

00:34:15,428 --> 00:34:18,097

So that seems to tell me.

600

00:34:18,097 --> 00:34:21,267

That seems to be telling us

that these people did really care about,

601

00:34:22,351 --> 00:34:26,064

like studying whatever texts

were available to them at the.

602

00:34:26,147 --> 00:34:26,731

At that point,

603

00:34:26,731 --> 00:34:28,733

I'm not entirely sure

what all that would be, but

604

00:34:28,733 --> 00:34:31,069

but like really reading,

studying, learning.

605

00:34:31,069 --> 00:34:33,321

I mean, talking,

setting up schools and things.

606

00:34:33,321 --> 00:34:36,866

again, it's just another piece that's

saying they took this really seriously

607

00:34:37,492 --> 00:34:40,495

in that way, right? That's right.

608

00:34:40,578 --> 00:34:44,957

So to the north of what

maybe we would consider the Syriac world

609

00:34:44,957 --> 00:34:50,338

that we have, Armenia and Georgia, Armenia

is pretty closely connected to Edessa.

610

00:34:50,838 --> 00:34:55,468

but in both those places,

as they became Christianized,

611

00:34:55,968 --> 00:34:58,846

it was the Christians

who wrote, who created alphabets.

612

00:35:00,139 --> 00:35:01,516

same thing that happened in,

613

00:35:01,516 --> 00:35:04,811

in Russia

or the predecessor to the modern state

614

00:35:05,269 --> 00:35:09,732

where the Cyril and Methodius created

the, the, Cyrillic alphabet.

615

00:35:10,149 --> 00:35:13,444

So Christians were creating alphabets so

that they could translate the scripture,

616

00:35:13,778 --> 00:35:16,656

and write it down into these languages,

617

00:35:16,656 --> 00:35:19,659

and,

618

00:35:19,784 --> 00:35:22,620

I mentioned the school in Edessa,

but there were other schools further

619

00:35:22,620 --> 00:35:23,746

east as well.

620

00:35:23,746 --> 00:35:26,415

So, we the monks tended

621

00:35:26,415 --> 00:35:30,211

to, engage in reading and writing

pretty extensively.

622

00:35:30,628 --> 00:35:32,088

that, that is really interesting

623

00:35:32,088 --> 00:35:35,758

because that feels like a real cornerstone

of, of Christianity really.

624

00:35:35,758 --> 00:35:40,096

Is this ability or this,

this desire for everyone

625

00:35:40,096 --> 00:35:43,558

to have a copy of God's word, to be able

to read it themselves, study it, learn.

626

00:35:43,558 --> 00:35:45,935

It's not like,

627

00:35:45,935 --> 00:35:49,188

you know, great wisdom

just passed down to you from from someone.

628

00:35:49,272 --> 00:35:50,064

Well, I told you so.

629

00:35:50,064 --> 00:35:51,899

It's like, no, here's here's the text.

630

00:35:51,899 --> 00:35:53,276

Like you read it yourself.

631

00:35:53,276 --> 00:35:55,444

So that's fascinating that right.

632

00:35:55,444 --> 00:35:56,237

Very early

633

00:35:56,237 --> 00:35:59,699

on, we've already seeing a lot of evidence

that that was that was a priority.

634

00:36:00,449 --> 00:36:03,452

It was again within the constraints

of what was possible.

635

00:36:03,870 --> 00:36:07,248

So you have in the Didascalia,

the encouragement

636

00:36:07,248 --> 00:36:12,086

that if you have spare time, because you

you don't have to work all the time,

637

00:36:12,086 --> 00:36:13,337

you're rich enough,

638

00:36:13,337 --> 00:36:16,591

then you should spend your spare time

either visiting the faithful

639

00:36:16,591 --> 00:36:20,178

and talking about Scripture, or

you should sit at home and read scripture.

640

00:36:21,095 --> 00:36:25,850

And so there's assumption that, possibly

not everyone has that luxury.

641

00:36:25,850 --> 00:36:28,978

But if you do have that luxury,

you should spend it with Scripture.

642

00:36:29,645 --> 00:36:33,941

and I find it interesting that you, you go

visiting other people who are presumed

643

00:36:33,941 --> 00:36:37,612

to have their own, intimacy

with Scripture.

644

00:36:38,529 --> 00:36:41,782

that, though, is in the

645

00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:45,119

there's another aspect

to this whole access to Scripture,

646

00:36:45,119 --> 00:36:46,913

and that is the need to interpret

Scripture

647

00:36:46,913 --> 00:36:50,958

correctly, because again,

there's there's sort of, a,

648

00:36:51,959 --> 00:36:55,087

variety of interpretation of Scripture,

including people,

649

00:36:55,254 --> 00:36:59,008

whether they confess Christ or not,

who would say, yes, but you need to keep

650

00:36:59,008 --> 00:37:02,261

the law of the mosaic law,

we would call it.

651

00:37:02,762 --> 00:37:05,765

And so.

652

00:37:05,932 --> 00:37:07,934

Individuals should read Scripture,

but they do that

653

00:37:07,934 --> 00:37:11,229

in the context of a bishop

and the teachers

654

00:37:11,437 --> 00:37:15,274

who are very careful to instruct,

people about how to understand it.

655

00:37:15,274 --> 00:37:18,069

So it's not really every man for himself.

656

00:37:18,069 --> 00:37:21,614

It's it's a community

that's all engaged with Scripture,

657

00:37:21,614 --> 00:37:24,533

whether they can read it or just discuss

what they heard on Sunday.

658

00:37:24,533 --> 00:37:28,955

And then, a teaching, ministry that is,

659

00:37:28,955 --> 00:37:32,333

helping them think about how to apply it,

how to compare scripture and so on.

660

00:37:32,750 --> 00:37:36,170

And you see that even

even when they write letters

661

00:37:36,170 --> 00:37:40,216

explaining doctrine, explaining lifestyle,

many times they just quote Scripture.

662

00:37:40,216 --> 00:37:42,426

And that's almost like, here you go.

663

00:37:42,426 --> 00:37:44,262

It says this in Proverbs done.

664

00:37:44,262 --> 00:37:47,974

You know,

they they, assume that that's that's,

665

00:37:47,974 --> 00:37:51,310

forceful enough argument

doesn't even need a lot of explanation.

666

00:37:51,727 --> 00:37:56,315

And so they really they really assume

together the primacy of Scripture.

667

00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:59,443

This but also this sense of

668

00:37:59,485 --> 00:38:01,946

I'm not sitting in my corner

reading it in isolation.

669

00:38:01,946 --> 00:38:03,281

It seems like there's

670

00:38:03,281 --> 00:38:06,701

a very strong community element

in, in how they're looking at Scripture.

671

00:38:07,493 --> 00:38:11,664

That's pretty neat because that strikes me

as a very Anabaptist thing as well,

672

00:38:11,706 --> 00:38:12,290

where we

673

00:38:12,290 --> 00:38:14,500

we tend to have more of that community

element,

674

00:38:14,500 --> 00:38:16,961

you know, trying to learn and grow

together and study together.

675

00:38:16,961 --> 00:38:19,922

It's not just me by myself

figuring it out on my own.

676

00:38:20,256 --> 00:38:24,093

You know, that's pretty interesting

that early on in church history,

677

00:38:24,093 --> 00:38:25,344

you're already seeing that.

678

00:38:25,344 --> 00:38:27,305

I didn't know that. That's fascinating.

679

00:38:28,472 --> 00:38:31,434

And you get what would

680

00:38:31,434 --> 00:38:34,687

maybe become, very strong

681

00:38:35,855 --> 00:38:38,274

hierarchical systems.

682

00:38:38,274 --> 00:38:41,736

So the bishop and the deacons

and there were very strong,

683

00:38:42,528 --> 00:38:48,701

calls to not violate their authority

and not to do anything the bishop doesn't,

684

00:38:49,577 --> 00:38:52,747

authorize and so on,

some of which feels uncomfortable to us

685

00:38:52,747 --> 00:38:55,541

because we've seen,

you know, throughout history

686

00:38:55,541 --> 00:38:59,253

how that kind of structure

and that kind of authority can be,

687

00:38:59,670 --> 00:39:02,882

can feel repressive

or can feel it can be misused, possibly.

688

00:39:03,341 --> 00:39:05,801

And certainly

there are probably examples of that.

689

00:39:05,801 --> 00:39:09,347

so but suffice it to say that it was it

690

00:39:09,764 --> 00:39:13,309

arose out of a very freewheeling

environment religiously

691

00:39:13,309 --> 00:39:17,271

where people could easily get missed,

get sidetracked or misled.

692

00:39:17,730 --> 00:39:20,107

And, so the bishops were an attempt.

693

00:39:20,107 --> 00:39:25,321

The bishops, their role was to keep

the church, thriving and to keep it safe.

694

00:39:27,281 --> 00:39:29,950

well,

this is this has been really interesting.

695

00:39:29,950 --> 00:39:32,328

that was the last question I had.

696

00:39:32,328 --> 00:39:36,123

But as as we kind of think

about bringing this one to a close,

697

00:39:36,123 --> 00:39:39,126

what are maybe some resources

if people are interested in learning

698

00:39:39,377 --> 00:39:40,086

more about this?

699

00:39:40,086 --> 00:39:41,087

What are some things you can

700

00:39:41,087 --> 00:39:45,383

you can point people to, or maybe a lesson

you want to leave our audience of things

701

00:39:45,383 --> 00:39:48,386

that these early Christians can teach us

today?

702

00:39:49,553 --> 00:39:51,138

many, not all,

703

00:39:51,138 --> 00:39:54,850

but many of the writings

of the early Syriac Christians.

704

00:39:54,850 --> 00:39:57,978

So we're talking, let's say,

Syriac Christians before the year

705

00:39:57,978 --> 00:40:01,440

600 are available online, are available

706

00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:04,985

in translation, sometimes freely

and sometimes not.

707

00:40:05,319 --> 00:40:08,239

For instance,

I mentioned Aphrahat, archive.org

708

00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:11,200

hosts,

all his works in English translation.

709

00:40:11,409 --> 00:40:14,203

a modern English translation. And so

710

00:40:15,538 --> 00:40:16,789

it's great to read about them.

711

00:40:16,789 --> 00:40:18,416

It's great to learn the history.

712

00:40:18,416 --> 00:40:21,544

but probably nothing is as impactful,

713

00:40:22,753 --> 00:40:26,090

as simply reading their own writings.

714

00:40:26,090 --> 00:40:29,844

You come face to face with some things

you really are

715

00:40:29,844 --> 00:40:33,139

drawn to that,

that really call us to love Jesus.

716

00:40:33,848 --> 00:40:36,851

And then if you're like me,

you encounter things that

717

00:40:36,934 --> 00:40:38,227

that you have to wrestle with.

718

00:40:38,227 --> 00:40:39,520

how could he say this?

719

00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:40,062

Doesn’t he understand

720

00:40:40,062 --> 00:40:43,399

Grace, you know, so

their way of framing things was different.

721

00:40:43,441 --> 00:40:46,527

They didn't have,

all the influences that we have.

722

00:40:46,527 --> 00:40:50,614

They had other influences, and it's good

for us to to wrestle with that and ask,

723

00:40:50,823 --> 00:40:53,826

how much we assume about,

724

00:40:54,743 --> 00:40:57,913

the gospel, how much we assume

that we understand what it means

725

00:40:57,913 --> 00:41:00,583

when these folks had different

ways of saying things

726

00:41:00,583 --> 00:41:02,251

and sometimes

came out in different places.

727

00:41:03,252 --> 00:41:06,255

So, but Aphrahat would be a good person

to read.

728

00:41:06,630 --> 00:41:09,633

other people

like Ephrem and Jacob of Serugh,

729

00:41:09,925 --> 00:41:12,845

great or wonderful poets.

730

00:41:12,845 --> 00:41:17,475

And so, go ahead and find something like

that and just sink into it a little bit.

731

00:41:18,058 --> 00:41:21,270

it's the best way to understand

732

00:41:22,146 --> 00:41:25,149

how much it matters,

to study these people.

733

00:41:26,567 --> 00:41:28,986

yeah, that's

that's really, really interesting.

734

00:41:28,986 --> 00:41:29,862

yeah.

735

00:41:29,862 --> 00:41:32,448

We've not done an episode on this topic

at all.

736

00:41:32,448 --> 00:41:34,450

Like, this is a lot of new stuff for me.

737

00:41:34,450 --> 00:41:37,703

So I really appreciate you taking the time

compiling this stuff.

738

00:41:37,870 --> 00:41:41,415

It's clearly something you care about

and for being willing to come on

739

00:41:41,540 --> 00:41:43,584

and share that with our audience,

I appreciate it.

740

00:41:43,584 --> 00:41:45,878

Thanks for coming

on, Lucas. Thanks for the conversation.

741

00:41:46,837 --> 00:41:47,129

Thanks

742

00:41:47,129 --> 00:41:50,132

for listening to this episode

of Anabaptist Perspectives.

743

00:41:50,174 --> 00:41:53,260

If you found this interesting,

we've done several other episodes

744

00:41:53,260 --> 00:41:56,263

on the early church,

which you can find linked down below,

745

00:41:56,263 --> 00:41:59,767

as well as all the other resources

that Lucas mentioned in this episode.

746

00:42:00,434 --> 00:42:01,685

Of course, you can always find

747

00:42:01,685 --> 00:42:05,523

all our content on our website

at anabaptistperspectives.org.

748

00:42:05,856 --> 00:42:08,817

Thanks again for listening

and we'll catch you in the next episode.

749

00:49:07,611 --> 00:49:08,487

I think we can learn

750

00:49:08,487 --> 00:49:11,490

I can learn from this, that,

751

00:49:11,490 --> 00:49:14,534

this the, secret to

752

00:49:14,576 --> 00:49:19,456

to growing as a Christian and the secret

to being more effective in the kingdom

753

00:49:19,456 --> 00:49:24,795

is not to sort of chill and just just,

float down the river of life,

754

00:49:25,170 --> 00:49:29,091

but it is to embrace hard things, embrace

755

00:49:29,383 --> 00:49:32,094

sort of the difficulty of God's call.

756

00:49:32,094 --> 00:49:34,638

And, but to do that

757

00:49:34,638 --> 00:49:37,641

not in some sort of grim,

758

00:49:38,558 --> 00:49:40,394

sad way of life,

759

00:49:40,394 --> 00:49:43,105

but to do it with kind of all that,

the burning

760

00:49:43,105 --> 00:49:46,108

fire of the presence of God.

761

00:55:02,007 --> 00:55:05,093

As I said, the last episode

where you stuck

762

00:55:06,511 --> 00:55:09,514

or ish or like, well,

763

00:55:09,514 --> 00:55:12,517

not as much as some of that history

with this on and stuff.

764

00:55:14,894 --> 00:55:17,897

Yeah.

765

00:55:17,939 --> 00:55:20,942

To get myself

766

00:55:23,653 --> 00:55:26,656

In with Yeah I feel like

there was something else there.

767

00:55:27,073 --> 00:55:28,616

Let's go.

768

00:55:28,616 --> 00:55:28,825

Yeah.

769

00:55:28,825 --> 00:55:34,331

The first interview be more kind of

like the questions I sent you originally.

770

00:55:34,539 --> 00:55:35,290

Yeah.

771

00:55:35,290 --> 00:55:37,375

That's kind of based on our conversations.

772

00:55:37,375 --> 00:55:38,126

It's I think.

773

00:55:39,461 --> 00:55:40,462

And we'll just see how it goes.

774

00:55:40,462 --> 00:55:40,837

Yeah.

775

00:55:40,837 --> 00:55:43,340

We can adapt pivot. Yeah.

776

00:55:43,340 --> 00:55:45,592

And I, I should have

777

00:55:45,592 --> 00:55:49,012

did you, did

I give you my notes from lunch or,

778

00:55:49,304 --> 00:55:52,807

or did you just take a picture

and whatever

779

00:55:52,807 --> 00:55:55,977

I wrote down on that

little piece of paper, I took a picture.

780

00:55:56,144 --> 00:55:56,311

Anyway,