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(Transcribed by TurboScribe. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) So effectively that means all our batteries are

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kind of aimed at those five percent of

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people Which again is kind of crazy that

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that's almost like the mainstream market.

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It's just a tiny little niche.

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I think Yeah, whether this is good or

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not people care more about money than the

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climate I guess that's probably why we're in

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this mess.

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Rob Halliefax is a mechanical engineer who spent

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a decade running Kickstarter campaigns 10 products over

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300,000 pounds raised and sold into 70

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or 80 countries now He's co-found in

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windfall energy a 2.5 kilowatt hour home

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battery for renters and people in flats The

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half of the UK's 28 million homes that

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no existing clean tech product was built for

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every other home battery on the market is

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built To go in the garage behind a

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panel somewhere.

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You never have to look at it Rob

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decided his product was going to live in

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someone's living room So he hired a designer

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whose background is ikea and lakeland not batteries

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not electronics furniture Just about half the homes

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in the uk.

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So there's 28 million homes in the uk

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and about half are either flats renters small

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homes People for whom sell the panels.

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They don't have a roof.

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They don't have space for a big Tesla

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Powerwall or something.

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Then I asked the question that gets to

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the heart of what windfall actually is Do

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you see windfall first as a climate company

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that has to pay for itself or as

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a money saving device that happens to be

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green?

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yeah, I'd say the latter like we've been

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speaking to a lot of people about this

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over the months and I think Yeah, whether

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this is good or not people care more

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about money than the climate I guess that's

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probably why we're in this mess Rob said

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something near the end of this conversation that

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I keep thinking about When you wake up

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in the morning and you see A battery

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that has magically overnight chart filled up with

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cheap green electricity.

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There's a very it gives you a very

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warm feeling This episode is about what happens

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when you build hardware for people everyone else

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forgot where the product decision isn't the cells

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or the firmware It's making something people actually

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want in their home This is why design

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So Rob welcome to the podcast Great to

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have you on why design?

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Um, thank you.

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We're going to dive in.

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I know this has been Yeah, long in

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the making I can't remember when we first

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met but it was at some some mixer

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Um in london, um many many months ago.

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Um, but yeah here we are.

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So thank you for your time.

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Um, so Rob You've had this Slightly unusual

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mix of mechanical engineering connected products a decade

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of crowdfunding going about so far And now

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you're building windfall a plug and play battery.

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Um home battery for for renters Um before

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we get into how that all fits together

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Take me back to a moment where everything

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shifted Maybe take me back to that kind

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of the iot london meetup where you met

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your co-founder You know Tell us where

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you were in your life and work that

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night and what was going through your head

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as you walked into that room Yeah, actually

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I'll go back a tiny bit further.

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So iot london that meetup where I met

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my co-founder that's been going over a

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decade now, I think um and About probably

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about 10 years ago.

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I went to my first one so kind

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of iot Has always been part of my

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sort of professional life for quite a while

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now And I guess back then also it

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was kind of pretty new It was almost

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like the kind of ai of its time

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where everyone was talking about iot Everyone was

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questioning whether it's overhyped or underhyped and it

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was a sort of interesting area I think

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at the time that it interested me because

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it Brought together the physical and the the

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digital because I'd as you you said I

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started off Doing mechanical engineering at university and

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then but got into kind of digital product

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management.

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Um, quite a while after that So i've

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always had that kind of software hardware Sort

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of uh balance and so iot Is kind

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of the perfect uh crossover between hardware and

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software So i've been going to those meetups

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for many years and last year, uh There

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was a guy talking as as happens at

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those events He was doing a a pitch

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about his actually his previous company Which was

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a squeevie energy and they were uh, or

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they still are a Company that manages car

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charging and overnight based on the optimum pricing

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of your tariff and electricity is that sort

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of thing?

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um And I can't really remember how You

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know what?

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These events are like kind of organic you

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talk afterwards and I think we might have

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ended up in the pub with a few

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of us and we sort of got chatting

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about Ideas and he he had just left

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that job.

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So he was actually Talking on behalf of

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the companies and they just left.

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Um, and I was also kind of looking

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for a new challenge to get stuck into

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and so we sort of I guess got

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on with each other and had a good

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kind of rapport in terms of how we

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Chatted about things and we both both kind

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of new iot technology But I guess crucially

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weren't too similar in that There's kind of

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no point if both of you have exactly

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the same skills and it can be quite

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fun You get on but if you're too

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perfectly aligned in terms of what you can

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Do and your experience is kind of no

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point in having both of you there.

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So we had the perfect balance.

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I think of Having enough in common because

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I think when you're especially when you're starting

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out having the the kind of very Sort

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of quick communication where a kind of shorthand

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for getting stuff done and being able to

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understand each other So you need I think

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some level of overlap in terms of always

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find engineering is a good example because I

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kind of some of the generic terms of

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engineering that are very kind of precise and

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useful Language that can kind of communicate things

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very efficiently.

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I think when you have that with someone

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it's quite you can get through quite a

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lot But then equally we realized we had

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different skills and balanced each other out in

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some ways.

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So it was kind of Totally random.

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I mean Like all these sort of events

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you I might just not have gone I

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could have just had something else on or

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would maybe feeling a bit under well under

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the weather or something and it's kind of

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weird these moments where Things happen and I

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suppose serendipitous.

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Yeah, but the way I look at that

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is you Getting out there doing things.

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I mean, who knows maybe i'd have met

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a better co-founder if i'd gone somewhere

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Yeah You never say that to actually But

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that's the point like yeah I think the

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point is to get out there meet people

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talk to people and stuff will happen You

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don't know what it's going to be and

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it might things sometimes happen sometimes I don't

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but getting out there talking to people is

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makes things happen It certainly does I posted

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today because we've got tomorrow's episode which is

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going to feel dated by the time this

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goes out but you know tomorrow's episode is

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Is is will butler adams co of prompt

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and bites and he famously Got the job

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at Brompton by chatting to the chairman on

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the bus He didn't know who the guy

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was from adam And he could have chosen

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to have his headphones in like they said

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he chose to spark a conversation And then

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the next day he's driving hundreds of miles

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essentially for an interview um and 23 years

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later he's You know running one of the

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most iconic hardware brands in the country.

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So it's um You know, you never know

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what you should put yourself in those positions

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You never know what good will come of

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it.

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So yeah, I think that's the key It

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doesn't it won't come to you.

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You have to get out there and find

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it massively Yeah, you said um when we

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prepared for this you said it felt like

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a little bit like dating over coffee You

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know, what was the yeah?

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Was there a moment where you realized that

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this isn't just good chat?

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This could you know, this could be there

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might be the person that I could build

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a company with um I can't remember if

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there was a particular eureka, but I guess

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it was we Kind of went for coffee

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then another one.

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I think we started I guess both of

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us kind of have the inclination to make

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stuff I think that's where we started just

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packing things together and sketching and even Actually

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pretty early on started coding up the kind

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of basic app for for approach type.

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We were working on this.

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I think it was when Because you can

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get on with someone and sort of lots

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of different levels and what is that can

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you work together and can you actually?

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sort of bounce ideas off each other and

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move things forward.

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I think we quickly realized we could do

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things so And we were hanging out in

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the british library back in those days couldn't

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have an office or anything.

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So Just seems like he would hack together

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a little app I would go away kind

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of make a logo spun up a squarespace

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website and stuff sort of happened organically and

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and I guess any Any point so that

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time we didn't have a limited company or

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anything It was just a couple of guys

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doing having a project and maybe At any

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point it might just not have turned into

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something.

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Maybe we wouldn't have wouldn't have come across

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An idea we thought had legs.

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Uh, so it's all just small Incremental steps.

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Yeah moving forward and maybe both of us

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having It's kind of a cliche but kind

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of agile development and just just doing small

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things and iterating moving forward and seeing what

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happens.

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Mm-hmm Yeah, absolutely.

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Do you remember?

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um Because i'm gathering from kind of the

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first kind of A few prototypes that there

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wasn't that the battery wasn't Not on the

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cards then was it wasn't the business wasn't

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set up for the battery That's right.

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Yeah So do you remember the first time

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when kind of the idea of a renter

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friendly plug-in home battery kind of showed

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up in your conversations So I think actually

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it was the almost the renter friendly thing

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came first.

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So we both live in flaps in london

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and we were thinking There's just nothing in

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terms of clean tech and energy saving there's

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kind of nothing for you if you live

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in a flat um all Clean tech stuffs

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about uh, solar panels heat pumps All these

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things that if you live in a flat

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and especially if you're renting you just can't

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Can't do so we thought about if I

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remember at the time it had been There's

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always every once a year in the uk

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everyone complains about how hot the weather is

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and how Like uk buildings aren't designed for

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it.

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So we thought maybe there's something we could

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do around Some iot thing with sensors and

272
00:09:59,900 --> 00:10:02,840
blinds that automatically monitored temperature in different parts

273
00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:05,100
And because there's always the question of should

274
00:10:05,100 --> 00:10:06,040
I open the window or not?

275
00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:07,580
When's it too hot to open the window?

276
00:10:07,580 --> 00:10:09,420
When are you supposed to and that all

277
00:10:09,420 --> 00:10:11,180
those we thought that could be an iot

278
00:10:11,180 --> 00:10:15,160
solution somehow so that Kind of started there

279
00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:18,000
and then we thought about kind of An

280
00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:20,040
iot plug became out.

281
00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:20,920
That was our first product.

282
00:10:20,980 --> 00:10:22,640
We actually kind of made so we thought

283
00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:25,580
an iot plug that Similar to the the

284
00:10:25,580 --> 00:10:27,860
kind of logic that ashley's previous company did

285
00:10:27,860 --> 00:10:30,200
where it looks at The electricity price over

286
00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:32,540
a day and knows when the cheapest time

287
00:10:32,540 --> 00:10:34,680
is and then the uk cheapest is pretty

288
00:10:34,680 --> 00:10:36,040
much always the greenest as well So it's

289
00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:37,500
kind of a double win So we thought

290
00:10:37,500 --> 00:10:40,100
what about a smart plug that monitored electricity

291
00:10:40,100 --> 00:10:42,260
price and only turned on when it was

292
00:10:42,260 --> 00:10:43,940
cheap So you could set a threshold or

293
00:10:43,940 --> 00:10:45,340
whatever or a certain number of hours.

294
00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:49,300
So we actually Because we thought that would

295
00:10:49,300 --> 00:10:50,440
be pretty easy to prototype.

296
00:10:50,460 --> 00:10:53,920
We actually just Luckily enough came across so

297
00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:55,540
I can't remember how we met this guy

298
00:10:55,540 --> 00:10:58,000
But I think an acquaintance of ashley happened

299
00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:00,120
to have a box of 200 smart plugs

300
00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:02,340
that he'd not needed He had some other

301
00:11:02,340 --> 00:11:03,720
project and didn't need them So we got

302
00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:06,380
200 free smart plugs, which we were able

303
00:11:06,380 --> 00:11:09,020
to Basically flash the firmware and have them

304
00:11:09,020 --> 00:11:09,780
to do what we wanted.

305
00:11:09,900 --> 00:11:13,760
So we then Made these products and again,

306
00:11:13,860 --> 00:11:15,480
it was very we had no money at

307
00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:17,680
the time So we didn't have any investment

308
00:11:17,680 --> 00:11:19,260
or anything So we just what was the

309
00:11:19,260 --> 00:11:21,660
low cost low effort way to move something

310
00:11:21,660 --> 00:11:23,740
forward and test and try so we had

311
00:11:23,740 --> 00:11:26,220
in the end we That smart plug we

312
00:11:26,220 --> 00:11:28,800
gave about 100 out to people who We

313
00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:30,460
met at meetups and just friends and family

314
00:11:30,460 --> 00:11:32,100
people just to say hey, do I have

315
00:11:32,100 --> 00:11:32,480
a go at this?

316
00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:36,140
Try it test it anything and It was

317
00:11:36,140 --> 00:11:36,360
cool.

318
00:11:36,420 --> 00:11:38,380
I actually still have one behind me which

319
00:11:38,380 --> 00:11:41,560
I use But we realized that it just

320
00:11:41,560 --> 00:11:44,260
wasn't impactful enough that you could people were

321
00:11:44,260 --> 00:11:46,680
For example charging their smartphone overnight in the

322
00:11:46,680 --> 00:11:48,800
cheapest two hours, but you save like fractions

323
00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:50,640
of pennies doing that and so we thought

324
00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:54,100
what's actually more more impactful and then For

325
00:11:54,100 --> 00:11:56,180
a while we looked at actually charging batteries

326
00:11:56,180 --> 00:11:58,260
with the smart plug And then we kind

327
00:11:58,260 --> 00:11:59,500
of got on to get what if the

328
00:11:59,500 --> 00:12:01,780
battery just is the smart thing itself.

329
00:12:02,260 --> 00:12:05,720
So Then we hit on the idea of

330
00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:09,200
a smart battery that again monitors electricity for

331
00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:12,180
price and only fills up Cheap electricity and

332
00:12:12,180 --> 00:12:14,260
then puts the electricity back into your house

333
00:12:14,260 --> 00:12:19,300
at the expensive times Bro, we're kind of

334
00:12:19,300 --> 00:12:21,960
skipping ahead, but i've got questions that I

335
00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:23,640
don't want to not ask later.

336
00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:26,960
So So, how does it work then you

337
00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:29,520
know in in practice is it kind of

338
00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:31,800
is it It plugged into the mains.

339
00:12:31,820 --> 00:12:33,840
It's drawing electricity to charge the battery.

340
00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:34,820
Is it then feeding it?

341
00:12:34,820 --> 00:12:36,280
It's not feeding back into the mains.

342
00:12:36,300 --> 00:12:37,660
Is it or so it is.

343
00:12:37,700 --> 00:12:40,700
Um, okay Yes, I mean generally the overall

344
00:12:40,700 --> 00:12:42,820
premise is pretty obvious and I guess a

345
00:12:42,820 --> 00:12:44,580
lot of people say why doesn't exist why

346
00:12:44,580 --> 00:12:46,540
haven't people done before and I mean a

347
00:12:46,540 --> 00:12:49,760
couple of reasons one is The electricity price

348
00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:51,140
certainly uk has just gone up and up

349
00:12:51,140 --> 00:12:53,200
and up and at the same time The

350
00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:55,300
battery price of battery sales has gone down.

351
00:12:55,500 --> 00:12:58,100
So the roi Is worth doing?

352
00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:00,300
So that you can make you could save

353
00:13:00,300 --> 00:13:02,640
enough money with a product at the right

354
00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:05,160
price that is worth doing whereas probably even

355
00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:07,760
Five ten years ago just wouldn't have paid

356
00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:09,140
for itself So it would have been it

357
00:13:09,140 --> 00:13:10,580
would have been a nice kind of novelty

358
00:13:10,580 --> 00:13:10,840
product.

359
00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:14,360
It wouldn't have been had much value And

360
00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:16,780
so Yeah, the plug and play isn't interesting.

361
00:13:16,780 --> 00:13:19,760
So we the idea is it Plug and

362
00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:21,680
play a single plug that plugs into a

363
00:13:21,680 --> 00:13:23,720
regular socket in the wall In the uk

364
00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:26,340
at the moment that's not allowed So technically

365
00:13:26,340 --> 00:13:29,300
there's no reason why you can't push electricity

366
00:13:29,300 --> 00:13:32,000
back Through a regular plug through a socket

367
00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:35,280
and it will effectively just power The circuits

368
00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:35,960
in your home.

369
00:13:36,380 --> 00:13:37,720
So That works.

370
00:13:38,140 --> 00:13:39,940
It's kind of It's a lot of people

371
00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:42,700
Question me when they're like, how does that

372
00:13:42,700 --> 00:13:42,920
work?

373
00:13:43,060 --> 00:13:45,060
And it just it's sort of In a

374
00:13:45,060 --> 00:13:47,700
way simpler If you just have like a

375
00:13:47,700 --> 00:13:51,320
load and a power source And if if

376
00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:53,080
something not in your house is is turned

377
00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:54,780
on it will come from the battery if

378
00:13:54,780 --> 00:13:59,620
the battery's Putting energy out um, so It's

379
00:13:59,620 --> 00:14:01,200
Yeah, how does that work then about does

380
00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:02,900
it kind of know to pull from the

381
00:14:02,900 --> 00:14:05,160
battery rather than just from the the So

382
00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:07,620
it's more about when the battery needs to

383
00:14:07,620 --> 00:14:08,500
know when to push.

384
00:14:08,940 --> 00:14:11,180
So if the battery is effectively pushed it

385
00:14:11,180 --> 00:14:15,280
turned on Exporting so discharging then whatever happens

386
00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:17,380
to be on will just take that electricity,

387
00:14:17,380 --> 00:14:17,960
right?

388
00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:21,740
And so in Germany and quite a few

389
00:14:21,740 --> 00:14:23,020
countries in europe and a few other places

390
00:14:23,020 --> 00:14:24,820
in the world That has become a thing

391
00:14:24,820 --> 00:14:26,120
in the last only the last sort of

392
00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:29,440
five years Um where you can plug a

393
00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:31,720
regular socket a regular battery So I threw

394
00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:33,560
into a regular socket to put power back

395
00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:35,660
The sort of the wrong way as people

396
00:14:35,660 --> 00:14:37,700
see it um, and there's talk of that

397
00:14:37,700 --> 00:14:39,880
changing in the uk and that's something we're

398
00:14:40,540 --> 00:14:42,500
uh, kind of keeping an eye on and

399
00:14:42,500 --> 00:14:44,640
hopefully that will change and we're doing our

400
00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:47,360
best to Speak we're speaking to energy providers

401
00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:49,520
and other people who may have some more

402
00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:51,140
more influence in that than we would as

403
00:14:51,140 --> 00:14:53,260
a small startup Um, but in the short

404
00:14:53,260 --> 00:14:55,320
term we have a kind of interim solution,

405
00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:57,720
which is a hardwired solution So an electrician

406
00:14:57,720 --> 00:14:59,580
will come in and it's sort of like

407
00:14:59,580 --> 00:15:00,820
a half an hour quick job.

408
00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:03,480
The electrician will because one of the rules

409
00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:06,240
is a Bs 7 6 7 1 I

410
00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:08,720
think is the wiring regulation about you're not

411
00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:11,900
supposed to have a Generating device that is

412
00:15:11,900 --> 00:15:13,620
connected to the home via a plug or

413
00:15:13,620 --> 00:15:13,880
socket.

414
00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:16,060
So there so you need a hardwired connection

415
00:15:16,900 --> 00:15:18,620
Okay, that's that's the kind of workaround on

416
00:15:18,620 --> 00:15:18,980
the short term.

417
00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:20,060
So a bit like the way a cooker

418
00:15:20,060 --> 00:15:22,700
is hardwired Yeah, sort of behind the behind

419
00:15:22,700 --> 00:15:24,860
the counter, but that would be still relatively

420
00:15:24,860 --> 00:15:28,000
easy to retrofit and remove for the next

421
00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:31,080
renter or Are you targeting this at landlords

422
00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:33,020
to put into their homes?

423
00:15:33,740 --> 00:15:34,580
I could could be either.

424
00:15:34,740 --> 00:15:37,220
I mean, yeah ideally In the future when

425
00:15:37,220 --> 00:15:38,560
it is plug and play then a renter

426
00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:41,060
So a renter is unlikely to live in

427
00:15:41,060 --> 00:15:42,540
a house for more than like two three

428
00:15:42,540 --> 00:15:44,380
years I think is fairly in london particularly

429
00:15:44,380 --> 00:15:44,840
fairly common.

430
00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:47,120
So you kind of want them To take

431
00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:47,540
it with them.

432
00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:49,540
So there the battery will last 10 years.

433
00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:51,740
So yeah giving value over that time So

434
00:15:51,740 --> 00:15:53,000
you want people to be able to make

435
00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:53,860
the most of it?

436
00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:55,240
Okay.

437
00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:56,100
Yeah, interesting.

438
00:15:56,500 --> 00:16:00,820
So um Well that there's this loop back

439
00:16:00,820 --> 00:16:04,900
then so um Obviously the name of the

440
00:16:04,900 --> 00:16:06,880
podcast is why design so we've got to

441
00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:08,860
at least include that question, but in your

442
00:16:08,860 --> 00:16:11,940
case Um, why engineering, you know, you studied

443
00:16:11,940 --> 00:16:12,860
mechanical engineering.

444
00:16:12,860 --> 00:16:15,240
What kind of started you off On that

445
00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:17,400
path of kind of pulled you into product

446
00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:20,800
development I suppose I mean i've always liked

447
00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:23,140
making things as a kid, but that's a

448
00:16:23,140 --> 00:16:24,260
bit of a cliche again, but lego.

449
00:16:24,260 --> 00:16:27,880
I like lego Drawing just kind of making

450
00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:31,280
Anything was always what I was into um

451
00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:34,040
and my dad was a civil engineer and

452
00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:36,260
so engineering was kind of sort of on

453
00:16:36,260 --> 00:16:39,420
my radar and I was quite good at

454
00:16:39,420 --> 00:16:41,280
maths and science and it was just sort

455
00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:42,660
of I mean you make those choices when

456
00:16:42,660 --> 00:16:45,200
you're Kind of a teenager don't really have

457
00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:46,960
any idea what the world's going to give

458
00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:50,000
you later on in life and I I

459
00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:52,880
think I guess engineering is a good degree

460
00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:54,460
to have it's pretty you learn a lot

461
00:16:54,460 --> 00:16:57,460
of stuff and you learn You learn a

462
00:16:57,460 --> 00:16:59,880
lot about just how to problem solve and

463
00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:03,859
and it's not necessarily Like ask me about

464
00:17:03,859 --> 00:17:05,460
the second moment of area and I wouldn't

465
00:17:05,460 --> 00:17:07,220
have a clue But it's like you learning

466
00:17:07,220 --> 00:17:09,180
the broader kind of principles around engineering.

467
00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:10,740
Yeah, and to be honest actually at the

468
00:17:10,740 --> 00:17:13,780
time I almost after my first year wanted

469
00:17:13,780 --> 00:17:18,079
to change uh degree subjects I thought engineering

470
00:17:18,079 --> 00:17:20,440
was just a bit too kind of prescriptive

471
00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:22,480
and It was all I wanted to do

472
00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:24,300
ad friends doing other subjects where they could

473
00:17:24,300 --> 00:17:27,099
do take electives in philosophy and other stuff

474
00:17:27,099 --> 00:17:29,500
and in Certainly in my department you had

475
00:17:29,500 --> 00:17:31,420
everything you did was in the mechanical engineering

476
00:17:31,420 --> 00:17:33,740
department He had a few choices within that

477
00:17:33,740 --> 00:17:35,660
but otherwise it was all very much and

478
00:17:35,660 --> 00:17:37,960
so I Almost changed to geography.

479
00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:41,000
So my life Quite different if I had

480
00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:44,100
but actually i'm of the age where I

481
00:17:44,620 --> 00:17:47,160
Wasn't paying tuition fees, but only by one

482
00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:49,120
year So if I'd have dropped out and

483
00:17:49,120 --> 00:17:51,200
restarted I'd have had I would have changed

484
00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:52,900
my whole life Had to pay tuition fees

485
00:17:52,900 --> 00:17:54,460
and grants and stuff was all totally different

486
00:17:54,460 --> 00:17:56,460
So that was part of the reason why

487
00:17:56,460 --> 00:17:58,340
I didn't and in hindsight I'm, very glad

488
00:17:58,340 --> 00:18:00,600
I didn't because I I love engineering and

489
00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:02,000
i'm a big Advocate of it.

490
00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:03,940
Let me interrupt for 30 seconds with something

491
00:18:03,940 --> 00:18:07,060
most hardware founders learn the hardware The skills

492
00:18:07,060 --> 00:18:09,000
that get you from prototype to product are

493
00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:10,680
not the same skills that get you from

494
00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:13,740
product to scale That transition is where leadership

495
00:18:13,740 --> 00:18:15,500
matters At codu.

496
00:18:15,500 --> 00:18:18,380
We help physical product companies hire senior leaders

497
00:18:18,380 --> 00:18:21,500
who can formalize roadmaps build world-class teams

498
00:18:21,500 --> 00:18:25,920
and align product with commercial strategy director vp

499
00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:28,880
c-suite If you were entering a new

500
00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:32,440
category raising capital or professionalizing your product function

501
00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:34,520
This is not a hire to rush.

502
00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:37,640
So find me chris white on linkedin and

503
00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:40,900
let's talk before you make the call Yeah,

504
00:18:41,100 --> 00:18:42,580
I mean it looks like just looking at

505
00:18:42,580 --> 00:18:45,000
your linkedin profile and the conversations we've had

506
00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:46,900
you've certainly found a way to scratch You

507
00:18:46,900 --> 00:18:48,960
know the the creative itch, you know from

508
00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:52,900
photography through Uh teaching so you've been caught

509
00:18:52,900 --> 00:18:56,400
entrepreneurial as well found in many ventures Um,

510
00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:59,220
you've even got a roast my kickstarter Um,

511
00:19:00,060 --> 00:19:01,320
I think that you do as well So,

512
00:19:01,700 --> 00:19:03,480
you know, there's there's lots of joy in

513
00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:06,060
there outside of the you know, they're nuts

514
00:19:06,060 --> 00:19:09,560
and bolts of of engineering um you know

515
00:19:10,140 --> 00:19:13,540
how much Of of what drives you is

516
00:19:13,540 --> 00:19:15,860
now is the is the joy of making

517
00:19:15,860 --> 00:19:18,720
something new and how much Kind of satisfaction

518
00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:21,420
how much is the satisfaction of watching it

519
00:19:21,420 --> 00:19:23,500
in the wild doing its job in someone's

520
00:19:23,500 --> 00:19:23,700
home?

521
00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:25,840
Yeah, I think that's what it's all about

522
00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:26,080
really.

523
00:19:26,260 --> 00:19:28,840
I mean I mean you could sit home

524
00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:30,460
making stuff for yourself, which I do I

525
00:19:30,460 --> 00:19:32,560
have sort of hobbies where I just make

526
00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:35,460
stuff my own enjoyment, but then When you

527
00:19:35,460 --> 00:19:37,960
make something that scales and you see it

528
00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:39,340
people using it.

529
00:19:39,380 --> 00:19:41,360
Um, and with my with my kickstarter projects

530
00:19:41,360 --> 00:19:44,300
i've had I think I did I added

531
00:19:44,300 --> 00:19:45,720
at once it's probably about 70 or 80

532
00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:47,640
countries and around the world where my Products

533
00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:49,620
have gone to and it's tens of thousands

534
00:19:49,620 --> 00:19:51,660
of people and the idea that my something

535
00:19:51,660 --> 00:19:54,220
I made Is now in someone's home in

536
00:19:54,740 --> 00:19:58,360
Wherever South America, Singapore, all of this and

537
00:19:58,360 --> 00:20:00,680
I love that feeling of making something that

538
00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:04,320
people Enjoy or use or just get something

539
00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:08,860
out of and I think it's the Turning

540
00:20:08,860 --> 00:20:10,520
it to a business is kind of almost

541
00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:12,900
Sometimes say i'm a bit of a reluctant

542
00:20:12,900 --> 00:20:14,880
entrepreneur like the stuff like accounting and all

543
00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:16,340
that stuff not going to say that's the

544
00:20:16,340 --> 00:20:19,120
most fun, but there's a point where If

545
00:20:19,120 --> 00:20:21,840
you want to scale and get the product

546
00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:23,360
into more people's hands you have to then

547
00:20:23,360 --> 00:20:24,860
become an entrepreneur and think more about the

548
00:20:24,860 --> 00:20:27,840
business and commercials and Legals and stuff like

549
00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:30,360
that, which is I guess that's maybe where

550
00:20:30,900 --> 00:20:32,340
Particularly on the kickstarter side a lot of

551
00:20:32,340 --> 00:20:34,500
people have a kind of hobby project which

552
00:20:34,500 --> 00:20:36,900
then Is it is an art project effectively

553
00:20:36,900 --> 00:20:38,700
becomes a thing and they make 100 and

554
00:20:38,700 --> 00:20:39,020
that's it.

555
00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:42,720
I think I enjoy That core creativity, but

556
00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:44,320
then taking it to the next level and

557
00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:46,940
Making a commercial and selling as many as

558
00:20:46,940 --> 00:20:51,600
possible Yeah Now fantastic and where do guinness

559
00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:53,940
world records come in And what do they

560
00:20:53,940 --> 00:20:56,380
say about the the way you approach challenges

561
00:20:56,380 --> 00:20:57,340
and side projects?

562
00:20:58,340 --> 00:21:01,320
um, so those Last when are we last

563
00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:03,120
two years ago almost exactly two years ago

564
00:21:03,120 --> 00:21:03,780
now new year's eve.

565
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:08,140
I had a New year's resolution to break

566
00:21:08,140 --> 00:21:10,600
a world record I think I just thought

567
00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:12,520
i'd be running my playing card company for

568
00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:13,560
a few years and I just kind of

569
00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:14,420
thought I was getting a Bit of a

570
00:21:14,420 --> 00:21:16,800
rot not doing enough kind of new creative

571
00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:19,180
stuff So I thought that would be something

572
00:21:19,180 --> 00:21:22,040
that just kind of forced me pushed me

573
00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:24,180
forward to do something Unusual and at the

574
00:21:24,180 --> 00:21:25,600
time had no idea what it was going

575
00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:28,880
to be um, and I think It probably

576
00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:31,140
talks to my I definitely have a philosophy

577
00:21:31,140 --> 00:21:33,920
that Any making stuff is actually quite easy.

578
00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:37,600
You can make anything because It's not really

579
00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:38,580
about you.

580
00:21:38,620 --> 00:21:41,720
I think when especially with my Kickstarter my

581
00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:43,860
first kickstarter was a razor and people often

582
00:21:43,860 --> 00:21:44,200
ask me.

583
00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:45,040
How do you know how to make a

584
00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:45,320
razor?

585
00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:47,380
And that kind of point was like I

586
00:21:47,380 --> 00:21:50,360
didn't before I did you making stuff is

587
00:21:50,360 --> 00:21:52,280
about Finding the right people to help you.

588
00:21:52,300 --> 00:21:54,140
You can do nothing on your own in

589
00:21:54,140 --> 00:21:55,880
sort of especially creative endeavors.

590
00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:59,140
You can Sing dance maybe like pile up

591
00:21:59,140 --> 00:22:01,360
some rocks, but everything else needs at least

592
00:22:01,360 --> 00:22:05,700
tools like other people Like suppliers manufacturers partners

593
00:22:05,700 --> 00:22:08,360
like nothing is Achievable on your own when

594
00:22:08,360 --> 00:22:09,160
it comes to making stuff.

595
00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:11,540
So I think once you realize that some

596
00:22:11,540 --> 00:22:13,580
people think Trying to do too much on

597
00:22:13,580 --> 00:22:15,660
their own So once you realize you can't

598
00:22:15,660 --> 00:22:16,700
do it all in your own you have

599
00:22:16,700 --> 00:22:19,420
to find help Then it kind of once

600
00:22:19,420 --> 00:22:21,080
you get to that you could pass that

601
00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:22,320
hurdle than anything's possible.

602
00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:22,960
You can make anything.

603
00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:25,980
So With the Guinness World Records, I thought

604
00:22:25,980 --> 00:22:30,520
I would Make something that was the superlative

605
00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:33,020
whatever it was in the world um, and

606
00:22:33,020 --> 00:22:34,960
playing cards was an obvious one because I

607
00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:36,760
had a playing card company and I was

608
00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:39,780
I still as a side hustle kind of

609
00:22:39,780 --> 00:22:41,260
run a playing card company with playing card

610
00:22:41,260 --> 00:22:41,600
designs.

611
00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:44,500
And so I thought I did a few

612
00:22:44,500 --> 00:22:46,280
I can't remember how I got to I

613
00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:48,080
guess biggest smallest was sort of the obvious

614
00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:51,340
things to look at and smallest I Looked

615
00:22:51,340 --> 00:22:53,760
up the record and it was the smallest

616
00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:55,760
playing cards previously were I think it was

617
00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:59,540
seven millimeters high And I thought that's I

618
00:22:59,540 --> 00:23:00,660
thought that sounded beatable.

619
00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:04,440
So I started Digging around and figured I

620
00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:06,640
could I could beat that Yeah, so that

621
00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:08,220
was the first one that I went for

622
00:23:08,860 --> 00:23:11,900
And you did it Yep, so the I

623
00:23:11,900 --> 00:23:14,460
got down to five so mine are five

624
00:23:14,460 --> 00:23:17,680
millimeters higher by three point six wide brilliant

625
00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:20,800
Really really difficult to fan out.

626
00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:22,440
I imagine I should play around the post

627
00:23:23,460 --> 00:23:26,120
They just they tend to just flip upside

628
00:23:26,120 --> 00:23:27,680
down and jump around and you can't you

629
00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:30,100
can barely yeah too easy as the answer

630
00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:34,600
brilliant what's the This is a slight departure

631
00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:36,920
from my questions here, but what's what's your

632
00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:39,520
best selling design of playing cards?

633
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:41,720
It's actually right here.

634
00:23:41,860 --> 00:23:45,960
It's this one So these square Yeah, so

635
00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:47,980
it's called the one deck and these are

636
00:23:47,980 --> 00:23:49,620
So they're regular cards.

637
00:23:49,860 --> 00:23:51,960
So this is an ace with the aces

638
00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:57,200
on but then they also have Chess pieces

639
00:23:57,200 --> 00:23:57,880
in the middle.

640
00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:00,600
Oh cool and dominoes as well.

641
00:24:00,700 --> 00:24:02,520
So basically you could play lots of games

642
00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:05,520
So the idea is they were Um a

643
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:07,320
multi-game deck so you can take travel

644
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:09,640
and these these are also smaller than even

645
00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:11,520
narrower as well as being square they're narrower

646
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:14,840
so actually My first deck was that size

647
00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:17,180
and these were Mini ones that size.

648
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:19,500
Okay, so the ultimate travel deck.

649
00:24:19,620 --> 00:24:24,200
Yeah was and those yeah that did A

650
00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:26,800
hundred thousand pounds this on kicks off to

651
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:27,900
this this second deck.

652
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:31,340
Wow So that's proved pretty popular and they

653
00:24:31,340 --> 00:24:34,440
stay still yeah still selling them today Fantastic.

654
00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:38,320
Yeah, so, you know Just proof that you

655
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:39,980
know your designs don't need to be kind

656
00:24:39,980 --> 00:24:43,160
of overly complicated to solve a You know

657
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:45,320
a simple kind of desire and need a

658
00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:50,300
problem there I'm guessing relatively, you know affordable

659
00:24:50,300 --> 00:24:51,640
to produce as well.

660
00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:54,900
Um, yeah, I mean that's One beauty of

661
00:24:54,900 --> 00:24:57,260
playing cards is there I mean effectively Your

662
00:24:57,260 --> 00:25:00,440
pdfs is your output you find a playing

663
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:01,140
card manufacturer.

664
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:03,860
Yeah, send the bdfs and that's that's it

665
00:25:04,410 --> 00:25:06,220
So it's a question of finding the right

666
00:25:06,220 --> 00:25:07,500
supplier and you're right.

667
00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:08,320
They're a volume.

668
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:09,020
They're pretty cheap.

669
00:25:09,020 --> 00:25:12,000
So margins are good Um, so it's just

670
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:15,280
uh, I kind of I guess deliberately constrained

671
00:25:15,860 --> 00:25:20,180
that design and manufacturing problem because I didn't

672
00:25:20,180 --> 00:25:21,880
Want to try and create the next kind

673
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:24,990
of Really expensive sort of electro mechanical device

674
00:25:24,990 --> 00:25:26,670
that that wasn't kind of where I was

675
00:25:26,670 --> 00:25:29,170
at in my life Again, it's the balance

676
00:25:29,170 --> 00:25:31,110
of finding the right thing for you at

677
00:25:31,110 --> 00:25:33,650
the time No, fantastic.

678
00:25:33,870 --> 00:25:34,490
Thank you.

679
00:25:34,490 --> 00:25:37,570
So so you've run um You know 10

680
00:25:37,570 --> 00:25:40,850
I think 10 kickstarter campaigns you've raised over

681
00:25:40,850 --> 00:25:43,770
300 000 pounds of your own through that

682
00:25:43,770 --> 00:25:46,270
You know, um, what was going through your

683
00:25:46,270 --> 00:25:48,290
mind the first time you you know, you

684
00:25:48,290 --> 00:25:50,870
hit launch Um, and and you asked the

685
00:25:50,870 --> 00:25:53,090
internet to to back your idea with real

686
00:25:53,090 --> 00:25:56,910
money uh Pretty nerve-wracking such might have

687
00:25:56,910 --> 00:25:59,210
weirdly my first one was probably the hardest.

688
00:25:59,210 --> 00:26:01,670
So it was my Highest target.

689
00:26:01,690 --> 00:26:04,230
So my first one was a razor basically

690
00:26:04,230 --> 00:26:07,190
a men's razor Um, so that needed it

691
00:26:07,190 --> 00:26:10,130
was made from die cast Metal so needed

692
00:26:10,130 --> 00:26:11,890
tooling which was quite expensive.

693
00:26:11,970 --> 00:26:14,750
So I think if I remember rightly Maybe

694
00:26:14,750 --> 00:26:18,470
19 000 pounds was my target Actually, it's

695
00:26:18,470 --> 00:26:20,910
now pretty much 10 times what my playing

696
00:26:20,910 --> 00:26:24,710
card Target would be so It's always harder

697
00:26:24,710 --> 00:26:26,250
on kickstarter to hit a bigger target and

698
00:26:26,250 --> 00:26:28,970
especially for your first ever project So it

699
00:26:28,970 --> 00:26:30,770
was a tough it was tough and I

700
00:26:30,770 --> 00:26:32,690
I think very nearly didn't make it.

701
00:26:32,890 --> 00:26:35,790
I It was kind of tracking along slowly.

702
00:26:35,830 --> 00:26:38,950
Um, um Like everyone will always say on

703
00:26:38,950 --> 00:26:40,410
kickstarter You need to have a strong first

704
00:26:40,410 --> 00:26:43,150
day ideally, but hit your target in hours

705
00:26:43,150 --> 00:26:45,130
If not a day the first day and

706
00:26:45,130 --> 00:26:46,850
I did definitely didn't do that and kind

707
00:26:46,850 --> 00:26:49,990
of battled through slowly raising the money and

708
00:26:49,990 --> 00:26:53,130
only Perhaps a few days before the end

709
00:26:53,130 --> 00:26:54,130
actually hit 100.

710
00:26:54,150 --> 00:26:56,330
So it was pretty nerve-wracking and very

711
00:26:56,890 --> 00:26:58,830
emotional Kind of roller coaster.

712
00:26:58,830 --> 00:27:01,750
It was a few a couple of articles

713
00:27:01,750 --> 00:27:05,050
online kind of men's sort of like tech

714
00:27:05,050 --> 00:27:07,970
not tech but more gadgety like stuff blogs

715
00:27:07,970 --> 00:27:11,390
published about it and Those there's actually you

716
00:27:11,390 --> 00:27:13,730
can see on my Trajectory of the project

717
00:27:13,730 --> 00:27:14,230
one of them.

718
00:27:14,230 --> 00:27:16,410
I woke up one morning and it Really

719
00:27:16,410 --> 00:27:18,170
took off and that's what that's what ticked

720
00:27:18,170 --> 00:27:19,230
me over a hundred percent.

721
00:27:19,230 --> 00:27:20,950
So it was definitely definitely touch or go

722
00:27:20,950 --> 00:27:24,230
and if I Had not succeeded then I

723
00:27:24,230 --> 00:27:26,030
probably wouldn't have done another one.

724
00:27:26,070 --> 00:27:28,930
So I think my life again Talking about

725
00:27:28,930 --> 00:27:31,050
pivotal moments that would have been very different

726
00:27:31,730 --> 00:27:34,950
did that um You know the the stress

727
00:27:34,950 --> 00:27:37,510
of getting to Kind of a hundred percent

728
00:27:37,510 --> 00:27:40,190
and then some you know Did did that

729
00:27:40,190 --> 00:27:40,810
not make you?

730
00:27:41,470 --> 00:27:43,890
Kind of think twice about doing another one

731
00:27:43,890 --> 00:27:46,050
or was the rest of the journey quite

732
00:27:46,050 --> 00:27:49,610
quite quite good Uh, it probably did maybe

733
00:27:49,610 --> 00:27:54,030
see I guess it perhaps made me Tone

734
00:27:54,030 --> 00:27:56,210
down my ambition for the actual product because

735
00:27:56,210 --> 00:27:57,810
like I say that what the first one

736
00:27:57,810 --> 00:28:01,030
had quite a lot of upfront costs that

737
00:28:01,030 --> 00:28:03,950
were kind of necessary the tooling and fixed

738
00:28:03,950 --> 00:28:07,390
costs which so my Which is partly why

739
00:28:07,390 --> 00:28:08,250
I went to playing cards.

740
00:28:08,350 --> 00:28:09,530
I did a couple in between where I

741
00:28:09,530 --> 00:28:11,450
just had lower fixed costs So I needed

742
00:28:11,450 --> 00:28:14,830
a smaller target and it would just easier

743
00:28:14,830 --> 00:28:19,090
to launch um and kind of Sort of

744
00:28:19,090 --> 00:28:21,150
almost annoyingly that the margin is much better

745
00:28:21,150 --> 00:28:22,790
on the playing cards And it's not there's

746
00:28:22,790 --> 00:28:25,010
not necessarily a correlation between the complexity and

747
00:28:25,010 --> 00:28:27,590
how successful is Kind of be as a

748
00:28:27,590 --> 00:28:28,330
business or a product.

749
00:28:28,330 --> 00:28:30,350
So it's like picking the right picking your

750
00:28:30,350 --> 00:28:30,610
battles.

751
00:28:30,790 --> 00:28:35,950
I suppose yeah, no, absolutely you um Going

752
00:28:35,950 --> 00:28:38,130
going further back in your career, you know,

753
00:28:38,150 --> 00:28:41,470
you uh, you're a global player like thermo

754
00:28:41,470 --> 00:28:45,610
fisher Um, and then you moved into startups

755
00:28:45,610 --> 00:28:46,990
and digital products.

756
00:28:47,130 --> 00:28:48,610
What what prompted that move?

757
00:28:49,070 --> 00:28:52,630
Away from the corporate into you know, the

758
00:28:52,630 --> 00:28:56,010
unknown the risky kind of world startups I

759
00:28:56,010 --> 00:28:58,950
suppose it was I was yeah living in

760
00:28:58,950 --> 00:29:01,110
cambridge at the time working for thermo fisher

761
00:29:01,110 --> 00:29:04,250
and I actually did uh an open university

762
00:29:04,730 --> 00:29:07,910
Uh course on design and innovation which was

763
00:29:07,910 --> 00:29:10,810
two years part-time I think it was

764
00:29:10,810 --> 00:29:11,910
a diploma or something.

765
00:29:12,070 --> 00:29:13,810
It's like the equivalent of kind of first

766
00:29:13,810 --> 00:29:16,930
year graduate And I think that was what

767
00:29:16,930 --> 00:29:19,210
really made me start to get more into

768
00:29:19,210 --> 00:29:22,310
the design side Of of products and I

769
00:29:22,310 --> 00:29:24,250
was At the time I probably didn't know

770
00:29:24,250 --> 00:29:25,970
what a product manager was and it was

771
00:29:26,590 --> 00:29:29,450
I was starting to work So actually that

772
00:29:29,450 --> 00:29:31,850
company actually started working on the factory floor

773
00:29:31,850 --> 00:29:34,210
assembling stuff And then kind of worked my

774
00:29:34,210 --> 00:29:35,810
way up into I ended up in the

775
00:29:35,810 --> 00:29:40,190
technical support team where I was writing technical

776
00:29:40,190 --> 00:29:44,050
documentation manuals for service engineers I was going

777
00:29:44,050 --> 00:29:46,030
around the world training service engineers to fix

778
00:29:46,030 --> 00:29:48,390
the stuff that we made and I think

779
00:29:49,090 --> 00:29:51,930
I started thinking about All the things you

780
00:29:51,930 --> 00:29:54,310
deal with as a service engineer.

781
00:29:54,350 --> 00:29:57,430
We're all kind of caused by design choices

782
00:29:57,430 --> 00:29:58,390
that someone made