So I started paying closer attention to the language that people were using to describe the sex they want.

And words and phrases like I want to feel lost in the moment or I want to forget the world around me, or I want to completely focus on the sexual experience as opposed to thinking about the to do list in my head.

You know, I want to feel totally absorbed.

And I'm like, they are using language to describe a flow state.

Welcome to the Taboo to Truth podcast.

Unapologetic conversations about sexuality in midlife.

I'm your hostess, Karen Bigman, certified life and menopause coach and sex educator.

Whether it's a dwindling libido, a dry vagina, a challenging erection, or the emotional ups and downs of midlife, we're here to talk about it all.

I'm going to bring the often quiet into the light to create a safe space where no question is too awkward or taboo.

Together, we're creating a community of support and education where you can learn, share and laugh about the intricate beauty of sex in midlife.

So grab your favorite drink and put me on speaker.

It's time we broke the silence.

Hello and welcome.

Today I have Dr.

Emily Jamia, who is a sex and relationship therapist.

She is the host of the podcast Love and Libido, a sexpert in my words on love and relationships, a teacher, and the author of a brand new book, anatomy of desire.

Five secrets to create connection and cultivate passion.

Welcome, Dr.

Emily.

Hi, Karen.

Thank you so much for having me today.

Is it okay if I call you Dr.

Emily?

I'm not sure how your patient, Dr.

Emily.

Emily.

I'm pretty casual.

That's totally fine.

Okay, great, great.

So I want to start a little bit differently and ask you about the title of your podcast, how you came up.

I actually look back and I think you had a different name for it way back when you started and then you moved to love and libido.

Yes, I just, I mean, sex and relationships is what I've been focusing on in my career.

Career for a long time.

And you know, I think a lot of people try to just talk about sex or just try to talk about relationships, but in my opinion, you can't talk about one without talking about the other.

And so 11 libido just felt like a better fit for my title.

And do people all, you know, I.

We in this world obviously know what libido means.

Do you ever get sort of questions like what, what is that exactly?

Having too much?

I think, I mean, as far as the feedback I've received, most People have a sense of what it means, or they.

Or they're missing it and they really want to know about.

Exactly, exactly.

So we met at the Sexual Health alliance conference, and there was a lot of conversations to the audience, who's primarily therapists and some educators like myself.

And I noticed there was a little bit of conversation about how we talk about sexual disorders and dysfunctions, which, to me, as a.

Excuse me, as a layperson, implies that we're deviating from the normal that maybe something is wrong with me or something wrong with us.

And we know very well that changes are inevitable, particularly in midlife.

What would be another way for people to approach discussing their sex life that would be maybe a little less daunting?

Yeah, I am such a stickler for language, and there are several words that are.

That my clients are not allowed to use, and dysfunction is one of them.

I think dysfunction, at least to me, makes us feel kind of stuck.

I prefer people to say the word difficulty or disappointment.

So you hear it a lot when people are talking about, like, erectile dysfunction, for instance.

I'm like, let's just see how your feelings change when we replace that with erectile difficulty or erectile disappointment.

And that little change, I mean, it may seem very subtle, but it can have a huge impact on the way people see themselves and their, you know, ability for their, you know, body to function in a certain way.

So I think that's an important distinction to make.

I think it also would help a lot with people who are sort of reticent to even go to therapy to begin with, let alone calling up, up a sex therapist, which I think is probably very difficult.

So let's.

Let's dive right in.

Say I finally got.

I got the guts to pick up the phone.

You know, I got my partner to say, all right, we're going to.

We're going to address this, and we meet Dr.

Emily and we make an appointment.

How does you know.

I'm going to make an assumption, but perhaps you can enlighten me.

That couples will come in and one will say, well, she doesn't want sex, or he doesn't want sex anymore.

Now what happens?

Yeah, well, people come in for all kinds of reasons.

And yes, I would say a discrepancy in sexual desire is still in.

You know, one of the top reasons people come in.

And there.

It's.

It's complex, though.

There are so many different reasons why people experience change and desire.

And a lot of times what happens is people will try to push the lower desire partner into therapy first.

Or, or they have identified as being the one with the problem just because they have lower desire.

But there may be some really good reasons why they don't desire sex.

Like, I want to know if the sex is worth wanting, how is the quality, what's going on in the relationship dynamic?

So it is rare, rare that I will see someone individually for the first session.

Most of the time I say that I want both people to come in so that I can get both perspectives on the issue.

Mostly though, so I can get a sense of the relationship dynamic.

I mean, I learned so much from watching two people interact for the first time and then to talk really collaboratively about what their goals are for treatment and just so that we can make sure that we're all on the same page after that.

You know, if people want to meet one on one for a portion of the therapeutic work together, I always do that because I think sometimes there's things from our past that maybe our client, our partner doesn't need to know.

You know, they don't need to hear all the nitty gritty details.

And, and so especially it comes to sex and relationship history, I'll, I'll offer people the opportunity to meet individually.

But most of the time I'm doing couples work because the way I see it, if there is a sexual issue, it's a couple issue.

It's not a one person problem.

Even if one person maybe has more going on that's contributing to the problem, it's important that the other one is a part of the solution.

So I'm very much a proponent of couples, a couple's approach.

Do you see a difference or a ratio?

You know that the narrative is that women get older and don't want sex, which is why we are both here having this conversation to change it.

But do you really see that it is more the woman who doesn't want sex or has sort of quote issues, or is there a gender difference?

You know, I would say in my heterosexual couples that have been together for a long time that I see probably 65% of the time the female partner is the one struggling with lower desire and 35% of the time it's the male partner.

But I will tell you, I have worked with plenty of midlife divorces who notice a huge surge in libido and sexuality, and it's because they were in an unsatisfying or unhappy relationship.

So they're finally getting an opportunity to explore their sexuality at a time in life when they feel really self confident.

They typically are more comfortable in their own skin, they care less what people think.

They find that they can be more assertive.

And so I don't think it's a fair statement to say that across the board, women in midlife experience a sexual decline.

While we can't ignore the impact of hormonal shifts that happen during menopause, because that does play a role, that's a piece of a much larger puzzle.

And so what are some of the ways in which you would have, you know, whether it's couples, I mean, if I come into, if I'm the person that you just described who's finding their sexuality, would I necessarily be coming or thriving in their sexuality?

Wouldn't necessarily be coming to see you.

So in that case, you know, people are coming to see me because they need help reevaluating what kind of relationship they want moving forward, or they're finding that d dating looks and feels a lot different than it did the first go round.

And so they need some support navigating that or they are worried that they're gonna pull baggage from their old relationship into a new relationship.

So typically they'll come to see me for those sorts of issues.

Yes, we definitely know that.

I used to be a divorce coach.

And second and third marriage, divorce rates are way higher than first because people very often take that, repeat the same patterns again and again and again.

So that is totally understandable.

How do you see the most success or when do you see the most success with couples who come in with challenging issues in their sex life?

When both people are on board.

You know, when they treat it, when they, when they see the problem as something kind of external to the relationship.

And that's language I use a lot with my clients, is I encourage them to externalize the.

The problem.

So rather than seeing it as a problem with one or the other seeing it, okay, this is a problem that we as a couple need to address.

And so I'm like, let's treat it like you're running a three legged race.

And yes, you're maybe both bringing components into this that has thus created a problem.

But how can the two of you work together as a team to address it?

The faster people get on board with the team approach to problem solving, usually the better their outcomes.

You know, additionally, I would say the more work they do in between sessions, the better their outcomes.

You know, I can't tell you how many people have seen where they count on the very, you know, short period of time we have together in the therapy office as really the most important piece of their work, but it's everything they're doing in between sessions.

And so there's a lot of factors I think that come into play and, and you know, really part of the inspiration or motivation rather for the book.

I wrot because I found myself giving a lot of my clients, regardless of what issue they were struggling with, kind of the same key pieces of advice.

And I originally developed it into an online workshop and I started telling people, like, do the online workshop if you still feel like you need help after that, you know, I will deduct the cost of the workshop from the therapy session.

But I was so convinced that the workshop alone would be what they needed to overcome their issues that I put it out there and you know, the response really positive and you know, it ultimately led to the book.

So.

So let's talk a little bit about that high level because I don't want to give away all the secrets and then.

Sure, tell me, you know, how you describe it, what, what's involved and maybe one or two of the secrets.

Yeah, of course.

So, you know, I reached a point where, you know, after 15 years of doing this work, I could help people, you know, to a degree improve the quality of their sex life or manage issues around, overcome things like ed erectile difficulty, help women have orgasms.

You know, I could, I could help people, you know, reach their goals for the most part.

But over time, I would get people coming back wanting more and they were wanting more intensity, more passion, usually saying that they wanted sex to feel like it did in the honeymoon stage.

And you know, I'd remind them that that's a temporary neurochemical high.

Or they would say they want Hollywood, you know, sex like they see in the movies.

And I'd remind them that those are paid actors.

And you know, but I knew what they, they meant, you know, they wanted more passion, more intensity.

And so I started paying closer attention to the language that people were using to describe the sex they want.

And words and phrases like I want to feel lost in the moment, or I want to forget the world around me, or I want to completely focus on the sexual experience as opposed to thinking about the to do list in my head.

You know, I want to feel totally absorbed.

And I'm like, they are using language to describe a flow state.

So for anyone listening who doesn't know what a flow state is, it's a term that was coined decades ago by this Hungarian American psychologist named Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi.

And it describes the state of mind we get into when we are so absorbed with whatever activity we're engaged in that we experience a loss of space and time, a sense of unity and merger.

And most people can think of something in their lives that puts them into a flow state, whether it's, you know, playing a musical instrument or, you know, time spent on the golf course.

It's when we're in the zone and usually accompanied with that is a high degree of pleasure and enjoyment.

And I'm like, okay, well duh, like that makes sense.

Of course, that's what people want to feel during sex.

So being very much an evidence based practitioner, I turned to the literature to see what I could find on the relationship between flow state and great sex.

And there was nothing out there.

I mean, there were, you know, we have tons of papers on sexual satisfaction and looking at, you know, what constitutes a satisfactory sexual experience, but there really was very little out there on sex at the more optimal level.

Dr.

Peggy Klein Platz, I would say, kind of pioneered research on optimal sex and, and she had her working model.

But I thought, you know, to me flow makes sense to people.

Like most people, like I said, can think of a time when they've experienced that.

So I initiated my own research study and published my findings and found that people, it wasn't just that the two constructs were correlated positively, but flow state was a really strong predictor of sexual satisfaction.

So what this meant was that by teaching people about flow and how to experience flow, that, you know, I felt like I had kind of tapped into a new approach for treating issues around desire and other problems that people have in the bedroom.

And so, you know, I started applying the model to my work with my clients, and the rest is history.

And in addition to the quantitative data, what I did is call up the research participants who had the highest scores, who were the most satisfied.

And I had these really long phone conversations and zoom calls with them to find out specifically what they were doing to have sex that put them into a flow state.

And that's where I noticed that several themes emerged.

And so those are the five secrets that are outlined in the book.

Can you give us a hint?

Maybe one?

Of course.

So I'll list them out.

So the secrets are sensuality, curiosity, adaptability, vulnerability and attunement.

And I think what is so great about each of these secrets is that they are innate within all of us.

So we are all born sensual, curious, adaptable, vulnerable, and with the ability to attune.

So what I tell people is this is not a matter of looking outside oneself or becoming someone that you're not.

It has more to do with tapping into qualities that are already there below the surface, but that you've lost touch with.

And in each section in the book, I also explain what barrier I think the modern day world has given us.

That it has disconnected us from each quality and how to navigate around so that we can reconnect with each secret within ourselves, our relationship, and ultimately in our sex lives.

Now if a couple you, you want to offer this process to a couple, do they need to be at a certain place?

I mean, if I, if they're in a, in a lousy place, are they going to be able to truly even conceptualize flow state sex?

Yeah, that's a great question.

And no, what I tell people is if, you know, if you are on the heels of a significant trauma or relationship betrayal or you're a high conflict couple, probably you're not ready for some of the material in this book.

So this is really about taking.

I will say I think it pairs nicely with material people may find in other resources, whether they're in a special population, maybe someone who's neurodivergent, or, you know, I think that it can be complimentary to other resources.

But I would say that the material in this book is really about turning that run of the mill sex into sex that you can't wait to talk to your friends about.

If a couple has come in that, you know, kind of, we love each other, but like it's been years since we've, we've been intimate.

Is, is that something that you could start with?

Or like, do you need to kind of tiptoe into, into the bedroom, if you will?

I think tiptoeing is a good way to describe the approach.

Yes.

I mean, anything that you haven't done in a really long time is going to feel awkward at first.

And if you try to do too much too fast, you're going to overwhelm the system and be more likely to throw the towel in.

So it's important to go slow.

One thing we know about flow is that it happens.

It's the third in a series of four stages.

So first we have to go through something called the struggle phase.

Okay.

And this happens again if you haven't done something in a while, or let's say it's something that you love.

Let's take running, for example.

Take someone who loves running and they, they're addicted to that runner's high.

They don't hit that high, you know, on their first lap around the track.

Right.

They've Got to warm up their muscles, have to kind of get used to the rhythm.

They've got to find the rhythm.

They've got to give the body some time.

And what happens in the struggle phase is the body's actually flooded with stress hormones.

And I think when it comes to sex, that's where a lot of people throw in the towel.

They think if it's not good right off the bat, then it's never going to be good, so why try?

But we have to go through the struggle phase until we can eventually get into the release phase.

And the release phase, some of those stress hormones flood out, the body becomes more relaxed, and then finally you get into the flow state, which is where everything clicks.

You feel like you're in the zone.

And then in the fourth stage, we have integration.

And this is important too, because a lot of neuro connections are being made and your brain starts categorizing what worked and what didn't work so that hopefully you can get into flow more quickly the next time.

But that's all a part of the process.

Process.

And sometimes people stay in the struggle phase, you know, for a couple of months as they are regaining their footing.

But this is where, you know, practice and consistency, I think, really come into play.

What are some sort of easy things that couples can do to start this process if they're really in the high struggle phase?

Yeah.

So consistency, I would say, is number one.

So people hate talking about scheduled sex.

That's another word my clients are not allowed to use.

I much prefer the word plan.

I think it has a much more positive connotation.

But however you want to call it, setting aside some time, at least once a week, where you can start connecting sensually, if not erotically.

And that doesn't have to include sex the way a lot of people think about it.

But just putting your bodies next to each other, looking into each other's eyes.

Eyes.

Starts opening up some of the vulnerability, which I have a whole chapter about.

So you're not going to get there if you're not connecting on a regular basis.

I think also, you know, what I tell people is that I want them to think of the material in this book more as a menu than a roadmap.

So it's important to assess kind of where you are in your life and what your relationship needs.

What I mean by that is if you're feeling like you are running around like a chicken with his head cut off, you know, doing 10 things at once, just busy, busy, busy, then take a look at the sensuality Chapter, because that's all about quieting down the mind, re inhabiting the body.

Or if you feel like life has gotten kind of monotonous, you're bored, you're needing a sense of aliveness or needing to shake things up, well, that's what the Curiosity chapter is for.

If you feel like you are kind of stuck or having trouble navigating in a relational or sexual hurdle, well, that's what the Adaptability chapter is all about.

If you feel like you're having sex that's just kind of going through the motions, or you're feeling any kind of emotional disconnect, or you're holding on to a resentment or something from the past, Check out the vulnerability chapter and then the final one, attunement.

If you're going to read one chapter, I would say check out that one.

Because attunement is really the gestalt of all of the others.

It's where everything comes together and kind of outlines how to have sex in a way that really makes you feel in sync with your partner.

Effortless, you know.

The analogy I give a lot is like a pair of ballroom dancers who've danced together for years, and they appear to glide across the dance floor.

Floor as one unit, I think, is what a lot of couples want, you know, and there's such an emphasis on communication strategies, and that's a great first step.

But, like, eventually you just want to be quiet and kind of let your body do the talking.

And so that's what that chapter is all about.

And I think even though we want to jump to the end to get to the good stuff, if you will, I think I love how you've broken it down, and I think it's super important.

It's the little things that we stop doing because we kind of take everyone for granted.

Well, he should know.

She should know.

The holding hands, just like kissing each other when you get home from work or when you leave for work, checking in during the day, the things that just sort of fall away when everything else in life gets in the way are really the important things that kind of brought you together in the first place.

So I think that that's critical.

So for anyone who wants to jump to the end, they may jump to the end and say, well, wait a minute, we really need to get back to the probably.

That's exactly what will happen.

You'll want to take a deeper dive into some component of it.

Yeah, yeah.

And what about for single people?

Does this apply?

Yes, absolutely.

So the book is outlined in a way that the first thing I talk about is how to reconnect with each of these qualities within yourself.

You know, I think so much of it starts within, not all of it.

A lot of it is relational.

And obviously sexual is where we land.

But I think there's so much a single person can learn apart from a relationship, but ultimately, hopefully bring into their next relationships that they're fully prepared to.

To, you know, share with their next partner the best sex of their life.

I want to talk a little bit.

I listened to an episode where you talk about how somehow, I don't remember how it came into talking about it, but you talked about you're finding your husband.

So I'm curious how.

How you fell into this wonderful relationship.

Because I'm still single.

I believe in love, and I love stories like yours that inspire me.

It would happen.

I might have talked about.

I'm trying to think of what you heard.

I mean, I had done a lot of my own therap.

The therapist I had at the time, you know, and this was in my, like, mid to late 20s, I guess she had encouraged me to make a really long list of all of the qualities that I was looking for in a partner.

And, you know, she was like, don't be shy.

Like, keep it.

Don't, you know, don't settle for anything.

Like, just make a list of your ideal partner in terms of, you know, personality, lifestyle, look, books, values, all of it.

And I did.

And when I met my husband, I'm like, well, he damn near checks about every single box.

So it was.

Yeah, I think once I set my intention and became clear, you know, really on the kind of relationship that I deserved.

I had kissed a few frogs at that point that I was fortunate to have him come into my life.

Right.

And I think that that was the point, is that you had to be in a place where not just having kissed a few frogs, but I think we learn.

We learn more about ourselves with each relationship and.

Oh, yeah.

With each frog and, you know, something to.

To the point that we can actually get, you know, just about everything on.

On the list.

And I've heard the story again and again, and I think it's.

It's a beautiful story.

I think that.

Anything you want to add?

I think we've gotten a really good sense of your process.

It sounds like it could be very helpful to a lot of couples, especially in midlife.

And just.

Yeah, know, actually, I know this is a midlife podcast the AARP just listed.

My book is a must read for this fall.

So, you know, I, and I really do believe that great, great sex can span the lifetime.

And this is not just because of what I feel.

I mean, we see this in newer research on optimal sex.

So, you know, do not buy into the myth that your sexuality is going to, you know, fall by the wayside as you continue to age.

In fact, I think it gets better for a lot of people with the right mindset and tools.

Absolutely.

And even though I'm single, I could say that I, when I have been having sex, it is definitely hell of a lot better than it was.

Yeah.

Back when I was younger.

Where can people find you?

Yes.

So I am across all the social media channels at Dr.

Emily Jamia and for anyone who purchases the book between now and the end of the week of my pub date, my publisher dates November 5th, you can visit my website, emilyjamia.com and you'll see where you can put in your receipt number and unlock almost $300 worth of free bonuses with book purchase.

And I mean, I've got everything from an intimacy building discussion deck to a 30 day intimacy challenge.

You get access to the online workshop I mentioned.

So there's tons of stuff on there.

Check it out.

And then if you like podcast, you can check mine out as well.

It's called Love and Libido and I.

Will put links to all of those in the show notes.

Dr.

Emily, thank you so much.

I so appreciate your time.

Congratulations on the book and I wish.

You all the success.

And I wanted to say that it's a bestseller, but I'm going to say it is a best seller by the time people listen to this later.

Fingers crossed.

Thanks.

Karen, thanks for joining me on the Taboo to Truth podcast where where I'm spicing up midlife one episode at a time.

If you've been enjoying the sizzle, why not turn up the heat by giving me a scorching five star rating and leaving a steamy review?

It's the best way to help others discover pleasure in their sex life.

So don't be shy, show me some love and keep the midlife adventure alive.

And until next time, grab your favorite drink and put me on speaker.

It's time we broke the silence.