Hi, you're listening to The Get, the podcast about

finding -- and keeping -- great marketing leaders in B2B SaaS.

I'm Erica Seidel, your host.

Sydney Sloan is a scale savant.

I talked with Sydney as she wrapped up her CMO role at Salesloft.

There, she played a key role in their huge scale-up.

She has since joined Zoom as Head of Product & Industry Marketing.

Sidney had so much insight to share that it was hard to pick

out just a few highlights.

I asked her how a CMO can balance getting oars in the water quickly

while managing expectations that in marketing things can take time?

You'll hear about when to set achievable goals versus

aspirational goals for your team.

You'll also learn about how to build organizational

excitement around your vision.

And you'll hear about organizing your marketing team and hiring with an eye to

where you want to be in eighteen months.

If you want to upgrade from incremental growth to transformational growth,

you've come to the right place.

Let's go.

Sydney Sloan, it's so great to have you on the show.

Thank you for joining!

Thank you, Erica.

I'm so excited to be here.

Well, I'm glad that we have all this fun stuff to talk about and

you have such great experience to share.

So let's get right into it.

I want to talk about CEO advising as pertains to CMOs first.

You have led marketing in multiple situations.

You've been an advisor to multiple companies.

What is one piece of advice that CEOs need to hear most to have their

CMO be successful in a scaleup?

Well, we're just going to get right into it.

So, Hey, I love how you do this.

We're going to get to the good stuff right away.

How do you work with your CEO as a CMO?

I think that's a great question because I think there's certain expectation setting

and I've been in all sizes of companies.

I've advised like two guys in a garage to, you know, billion dollar companies.

And there's certain things that I find are consistent regardless of company size.

And that is that marketing is, as we know, right brain, left brain, science and art.

And so there's two facets.

It's like either they're looking for the unicorn, the person that has absolutely

everything in their resume has done absolutely everything, or they're

just looking for a demand gen person or just looking for a brand person.

And both of those are probably the spectrums from which to work within.

And so in my experience, on the scaleup side, I believe that marketing

is part strategy, part execution.

And so when I say that, then I'm thinking of how does this person set

the go-to-market strategy alongside the other leaders in the company?

That's the most important thing first because if you can decide what you're

going to go after and what you're not going to go after, then you can

organize the company against that.

And that doesn't matter what the company size is and I've never seen a

company be more successful than three.

I remember when Adobe had like five business units, they went down to two and

that's when they hyperscaled like in 2015.

And so that power of focus is real.

So I would say, you know, really helping to understand what the

strategy of the go-to-market is.

And then the execution.

You actually have to have demand gen chops as a marketer.

If you can't create demand and create inbound activity or connect with

an account-based strategy, that's a skill then you would need to learn.

Right, because often there are people who come up only through one

angle of marketing, whether it's demand gen, product marketing, or branding.

And then sometimes they'll say like, oh, but I can lead the rest.

But what I'm seeing now is more companies saying, well, in order to

lead something, you'd have to be able to challenge the people that work for you.

And so people who have kind of migrated around to multiple activities

within marketing will do best.

When I was younger, I always thought I had to do every

job before I could manage someone.

That was a fallacy because basically then you're asking to micromanage.

I think, as you continue up in your career, then it's, what's the right

questions to ask versus how do I do?

And you can learn that by being part of projects.

I remember maybe it was eight years ago, I was leading customer marketing at Jive.

And I volunteered to be part of this awesome project that

our president was running, Jay Larson, and they hired McKinsey.

I had no right to be there, but I raised my hand and said, I would love

to project manage this so I can get that experience of the research they were

doing, how we were going after plays.

There was a customer marketing angle to it, but it wasn't the whole thing.

And so, you know, you can gain that experience, even

if it's not in your title.

I like that, this difference between how do you do it versus what are

the right questions to ask and how you can kind of rise up from being a micromanager.

Yeah.

I don't think you have to have done every job in order to be able to

do it, but you have to understand how all the pieces fit together.

And yes, what are the right metrics?

So if you don't know, then ask your network, like what are the right

metrics to hold my demand gen team accountable to their return on investment?

What should I expect in terms of show rates?

And what are those things that, you know you want to be in the swim

lane, if you're working for a venture VC-backed or even PE-backed, a lot

of them do have these indexes that within ranges they're a guideline.

They're not exact.

I've had CEOs put the chart in front of me.

It was like a science - what did they call the, where you have the

elements, the science elements?

Oh yeah, the Periodic Table of Elements kinda thing?

Periodic Table chart.

And he put it in front of me and he's like, this is what you should be doing.

And I'm like uhh, you know, and I looked at some of their results and I'm like that

doesn't have anything to do with this.

We're an open source developer company.

Maybe if we were something else that would.

So, I think you still have to be smart enough to be able to challenge.

But every, you know, those kinds of things are just guidelines and at least

that you know an equation that you could look to, then you can benchmark

yourself and say, am I improving?

Mmm, that's great.

So that gets into another question I have about setting expectations with CEOs.

So, sometimes CEOs hire CMOs and expect them to build Rome in a day, and it's

like, oh, I want somebody who can, as one of my clients says, get the oars

in the water fast and start rowing.

But then sometimes I've had marketers that are, that say well, but this

is going to take a long time.

And so both things are true.

And I'm wondering, what's your advice on how to build confidence in

marketing when the reality is that some things do take a long time?

I'm a planner.

So I always want to know where I'm going.

I remember when starting at SalesLoft, like we ran quarterly OKRs.

And so it was like one quarter, we're doing this.

And one quarter, we're doing that.

And when you're a hundred person company, maybe you could adapt that fast.

But when you grow to a thousand person company, your

company can't shift that fast.

And as a marketer, and I think this all marketers would resonate with this, you

can't execute on a quarterly rhythm.

It takes a quarter to figure out what you're doing and then a couple

of quarters to execute and test it.

And then, so I think in six month cycles.

But where I like to sit is where do I want to be eighteen months from now?

And create the plan for the future.

Not just even the twelve-month, your annual plan, but look a little bit

beyond that and say here's where I think we can be in eighteen months.

And then I look at phases.

And then it's going to take us, you know, crawl, walk, run, or

phase one, phase two, phase three.

And so here's where we're going to start, but this is where we're going.

And so if you can set a really good vision of where it is we want to go,

and then here's how you get started and identify those milestones along the way

to show progress on the ultimate goal.

That's how I think of it.

I remember one time that I was at Alfresco, I got there and I think

I was there for maybe three months and sales kickoff was coming.

And so, our team worked really hard on, here's what we're going to do.

Here's two campaigns and here's our go-to-market and this is, we're

gonna run a competitive campaign.

And then these are the verticals we're going to go after, and we're gonna do

this one and we're gonna do this one next.

And I did not set proper expectations.

On Q1, we're going to do this.

Q3 is when you can expect that.

So as soon as sales kickoff was over, everybody was like, well, where is it?

You said it was going to happen.

Like, why aren't you executing on it?

And it took us longer to get the campaigns together and in market.

We'd just bought Marquetto.

We didn't have a database and we had a lot of work to do.

And so you make sure that when you're casting these great visions

of the future, that you are setting expectations on timing.

Because if you do a really good job at it, people are going to want it the next day.

So, just be careful.

Right.

And it sounds kind of obvious to set the future goal and then

work backwards and communicate.

Why do you think it is that some marketers get tripped up in that?

Well, you have to have the conviction.

I mean, sometimes it's hard, right?

Cause you want to test and test and test.

And so make sure that the vision that you're setting is high enough that

there's multiple tacks to get there.

And multiple plays that you could run to ultimately get there, but

that you have this big vision that you can rally people towards.

And fail fast, I would say, too.

Don't get hung up on it.

You know, these are all learnings.

Okay, we learned that's not the way.

Then we can try Option B, or we'll pivot here, we'll dial this.

So like I said, when I've seen companies set multiple strategies,

regardless of the size, it's like three, maybe even two that matter.

So if you have three strategies and one really hits it, then that's okay.

You can say, well, we learned on this side, this strategy one is growing 50%.

Strategy two is growing 5%.

We all agreed that those were the right strategies, but let's

drop the 5%, put more in the 50% and get it to grow at a hundred.

So placing a couple bets towards that vision it might be a way that

marketers and CMOs can manage with their counterparts is to how do we get there.

Yeah, that makes sense.

So let's talk about the CMO side now that we've talked about the CEO side.

Can you share a few key mistakes for a SaaS marketing leader to

avoid when they are scaling up?

Well, the first one, I think it just, it drifts off of what we

just said, which is pivoting too fast.

If you've done the research, if you've done the work - I remember

we did this course pragmatic marketing years and years ago.

And it was actually in product planning and engineering.

It wasn't a marketing one.

I went with our head of engineering to this course, and they were

like, the most important phase is the first phase of research.

So you really do understand what not to do versus trying five things.

So if you tried five things, you put 20% effort into it, three of

them fail, why not try and cut two or three out and put more effort

in the ones that statistically, if you've done your research properly

have had better chance of succeeding?

I think that's it.

If you really do assess your market opportunities properly, then make sure

that you take the time to work it through.

And maybe the first time out it doesn't work.

Maybe you're too early in market, maybe there's a little bit more

education that needs to be done.

Maybe there was a piece of the operational execution engine that

didn't get its piece in order and you need to go back and fix it.

So I just would say don't pivot too quickly when you've done

the research on a strategy.

The second one I think is super important, and it's to align with your CFO.

Pronto, right out of the gate, right?

You've got your leadership team and you want to have all those

relationships and you're head of sales, absolutely, is a strong relationship.

Head of product, as well.

But don't forget the CFO for many reasons.

Matt Heinz dropped the greatest knowledge bomb a couple of weeks

ago in the CMO group I'm in.

And he said the marketing budget is not an expense budget.

You're buying outcomes.

He probably said it more eloquently than that.

But you, the purpose of the marketing budget is to buy outcomes.

And if you were in partnership with your CFO over what outcomes you want to

achieve, and what's the right investment strategy to get those outcomes and you

partner with your CFO, that is going to build that trust layer that's going to

help you make those bigger bets later on.

And I remember coming into to Salesloft, and this was an important conversation.

And as I was leaving Salesloft cause I've left now.

He reflected, my CFO reflected on the importance of that

conversation when we first started.

And I sat down and I told him like how much I care about fiscal responsibility.

I balance my checkbook every month.

I don't have credit card debt.

I pay, you know, and like I want him to trust me.

And my goal was to be with plus or minus 5% of my targets, just like

sales has to be with their targets.

My commitment to him was that I believe that I have the fiduciary responsibility

of how the marketing budget is spent and I'm going to do it wisely.

And there are many times we had extra money that I said, you know what?

I'm not, I don't want this money because I don't think we can

spend it in an effective way.

And that's important to build trust too.

And so, we would run, we had a monthly check-in with our controller and my

finance business partner, building models, looking at things, I would

explain why we're investing in certain things and what my expected outcomes

were, and we educated each other.

And it was the healthiest relationship I've ever had.

To the point where maybe six months ago we were going through a big brand project

and we did a Shark Tank investment.

We wanted to really build the brand, this beautiful brand that we had

just created and, you know, put extra emphasis at in the market.

And we wanted another million dollars to spend on advertising just for brand.

So it wasn't going to be a demand investment.

It was just a brand investment.

And so we created this whole Shark Tank pitch for the team and they

gave us the money and it worked.

Better than, it worked very well.

To the point where we've continued to get more.

That wouldn't have happened I don't think if we wouldn't have

consistently performed, had built that trusted, that was there.

That's great.

There was another person on this podcast, Justin Steinman, who talked

about with a marketing budget you never say, it's my marketing budget.

You say it's our marketing budget.

And so he says he's the steward of the budget, that is, the company's

budget, which I think this aligns great to what you were saying.

I say the steward, too.

I say the same thing.

The steward, yeah, it's great.

Yeah.

So you said you had three, was there another one floating around?

Oh, the third one is partnerships.

And, you know, sometimes you come in and you go, oh, the

marketing team, my marketing team.

And I think as a CMO, your job is actually to be a leader of the company.

And the function you run as marketing and you hire great people to do, you

know, to lead the different teams.

But if you spend time with their sales leader, your product leader,

making sure that those groups are aligned, then that's going to

make it easier for all your teams.

And when that doesn't happen, you can feel it right away.

Like when there's tension that, uh-oh, that means the leaders aren't aligned.

If we're aligned, then everybody else should also be aligned.

So it really is what I call team one, and team one is your peers.

And so if you're a C-level executive, your first job as a leader of the

company, and not the leader of marketing.

And hopefully, if your peers feel the same way and you have that trust,

then you can have open dialogues about the right strategy and the different

pieces of the organization that, you know, may need focus or help.

And I mean, there's so many examples I can think of where it's like, oh, I

remember just recently, the SDR team.

I have like five of them was not performing as well.

And I'm like, how about if we get some training?

Like I'll pay for it.

I shouldn't have to, the sales enablement team, but if that's going

to help, like fine, I'll do it.

I'll take money and I'll pay for it because that's important for that

part of our equation to function.

And so I did.

I took 20K and one of our product marketers, and they ran the project

with John Barrows and it was awesome.

They were so appreciative and, you know, invited us to attend.

And that's part of building partnerships is giving support when needed.

That's really cool.

I like that.

And it makes me think about the trend that I'm seeing of people

thinking about sales and marketing as one go-to-market function.

And so, is that a trend that you're seeing?

And if so, is that different than marketing being in alignment

with sales and, you know, obviously other functions as well?

Well, it's a great question because I think there's

a lot of talk about revenue teams.

And the revenue organization and where do the operations people sit?

And so everybody nods their head, yes, absolutely, revenue alignment.

Would you have the CMO report to sales?

Absolutely not, no, no way.

I'm not gonna report to sales.

Then I'll just be a demand gen engine.

And so, I think there's a, you have to keep that healthy tension

between investing in the brand and demand and aligning on the strategy

of your true market leader, not marketing, but market leader.

And so I do think that looking at holistically the customer experience

through the lens of the operational side of a revenue makes a lot of sense.

Shared dashboards, common nomenclature, one pipeline meeting

where everybody is at the table.

It's not marketing saying this and SDR saying this and sales saying this.

Like we're all together looking at the pipeline creation and upsell, cross-sell,

and so bringing those folks together.

So, I think it's a revenue process, revenue engines, but I don't see

very often the CMO or the head of marketing reporting to head of sales.

Sometimes the president might have it, but then they're almost

like a quasi- CEO at that point.

Yeah, I'm seeing some CMOs report to CROs, but hopefully

those are people that are not, you know, they're kind of like a GM

as opposed to just a salesperson that's called a revenue officer.

Can we talk about goals?

You had this framework around the achievable goal

versus the aspirational goal.

Because I imagine when you're a CMO in scale-up mode, you want to be

able to set achievable goals so you don't over promise and under deliver,

but at the same time, you might want to be aspirational for your team.

So that like setting these aggressive goals that they can reach for even if

you know you're not going to get to them.

How do you think about that?

You know, I think there's a time and place for each, or even a mix.

I subscribe to the OKR system, so I think that's a really strong

framework to allow for top level goals, but still organic goals to

come from within the organization.

And they do use this framework of aspirational versus achievable.

And I think there's another one that starts with a C.

What I see on, if you go too aspirational, if it doesn't feel achievable,

then it's not worth writing down.

It's just not, right?

And so I've, there's so many times where I'm like, well, my BHAG is this.

And I think you can have that from time to time, but it can't be every quarter.

It can't be every goal.

If you want to pick one to like, say, Hey, this, cause if we do this really

well, like this is what we expect.

So you might have a couple there that are truly aspirational.

I think the purpose of aspirational goals is to really remove the barriers of what

you're doing now to think differently about how you might achieve it.

Versus incremental growth where you want to do transformational growth,

that might be the time that you throw down an aspirational goal.

But you allow your team the space to realize, you know,

that it was an aspirational.

But I find with Type As, if you put an aspirational goal down,

they're still going to go for it, and if they don't crush it, then

they're going to feel defeated.

So you have to be really careful that it doesn't become a demotivating

factor when you set aspirational goals because they're unachievable.

Or that people are like, I can't even get that.

Like why bother?

If you've got people with quotas that are so huge that they don't

see a path to it, they're not going to be motivated to meet it.

So I think that's a good example of achievable goal where you allow them to

overachieve and maybe you change your comp plans allowing for overachievement

if that's what's necessary to get the momentum going in the organization.

Or if you're doing a new product group or a new team, let them achieve the

goals and get that momentum of success versus some crazy BHAG that your

financial model tells you, but your gut tells you - Your financial model

tells you that you need, but your gut tells you it's not the right thing.

And you talked about bonuses and motivating people financially.

Are you starting to see marketers getting compensated more like salespeople

with higher variable compensations?

It's something I've been starting to see in pockets here and there.

I have not.

I mean, I see the CMOs you know, we're responsible for company

revenue, I see company metrics where the revenue achievement is part

of the overall bonus structure.

So it's like, did we meet our revenue goals?

Did we meet our churn and retention goals?

If it's net or gross.

And then some operational efficiency targets.

That's pretty common.

I actually was on a thread today on LinkedIn.

Carilu Dietrich started on compensating SDRs.

I think that's one that's a little bit different where you have so

many different kinds of SDR teams, you can have an inbound team,

you can have an outbound team.

You could have a hybrid blended team, you know, supporting SMB versus enterprise.

So there's no one-size-fits-all when it comes to SDRs and BDRs, but there

is this idea of quality over quantity.

And I see that where, if they're creating all these SQLs, but they're not

converting, should they still get paid?

I don't think so.

I think it does have to be a quality and quantity.

The quantity is proof to the formula.

The quality is proof to the person's ability to properly qualify.

And the sales rep, right?

It's a responsibility between both of them.

And so I do like giving that second kind of mix on the variable to quality.

Now, does that mean they get paid on closed one?

Well, it depends on the timing of the sales cycle.

Maybe they get paid when it hits another sales stage where it's further

qualified, and that's good enough and it's a little bit quicker so they see

the compensation coming back to them and they stay motivated in their job.

Makes sense.

I haven't seen that in though in other places

like advertising return on investment or anything like that.

So I haven't seen that yet.

Okay.

Interesting.

So let's dive in deeper on org and hiring.

I'm wondering if in all your experience you have made an organizational

choice that most other marketers haven't done or wouldn't do?

Like a really unique organizational choice.

So I like to design org charts, same thing, you'll

see the same eighteen months out.

So it's like, what am I designing for in the future?

And then what is my revenue target at that point?

So what is a $250 million marketing organization look like versus

a $50 million organization?

If you're growing that fast.

I think it's like a hundred to 250.

But you know, they absolutely change and adapt and like people's skills

and experience have to change.

That's the hardest part of the job, is making sure you've got the right people in

the right roles with the right experience.

Or that you can teach them to do that.

And when I first arrived and we were 15 million, I was the

smallest company I'd worked for since I was right out of college.

That's different because you're working with a lot of people

that are first time in job.

I looked at my management team, I'm like everybody that is on my management

team this is the first time them ever doing any of their jobs before.

Wow.

Ok, so how do I manage those folks and how do I, how can I give direction,

give training and enablement, still hire and balance where there's people

that are being promoted while you're hiring in more experienced talent?

And that equation continues as the company continues to grow.

During those periods, I have people report to me for different reasons.

Sometimes I've had field marketing directly report to me, but the reason

is because I wanted to stay close to what was happening in the field.

And if they had been reporting to the head of demand gen, I wouldn't be

hearing kind of first party insights on, okay, what are the sales teams saying?

How are they executing?

How are they feeling about the sales plays?

What else are they asking for?

And so that was the reason that I, at that point, put field

marketing reporting to me.

Recently, I had customer marketing reporting to me and

she had analysts relations and customer marketing, same thing.

It was like, I wanted to have direct insight and I believed I could help

coach this really talented person to - Sunshine, I'm talking about you if

you're listening - this really talented person to stretch into a new role.

And I told her at some point you'll likely go into the comms and that did happen.

But for this period of time, you know, let's do this.

And I think when you're looking at your leadership team, it doesn't

always have to be your direct reports.

And so if you have emerging talent or people inside the team that are

taking on special projects, let them be part of your leadership team.

Give them that exposure to how you lead and manage and start

cultivating them as a future leader if you see them in that hiring path.

So that might be other time too.

It's like, well, why is that person going to your leadership team?

It's like, oh, that person's a future leader and I want them

to learn what's going on here.

So when it's time for them to be promoted, or if I'm kind of getting a

backup person just in case, or if I have my plan, like I'm going to expand this

team and this person's going to come out into a new role, then I want them

to understand what it's like to be a leader, the kinds of challenges we're

faced with, how we run our business, you know, give them opportunities to take on

new projects that are cross-functional.

That's not necessarily org structure difference, but it's

how you run the team different.

Is there a particularly risky bet that you

have made on a hire in the past?

And maybe it's somebody without SaaS background coming into SaaS or hiring

a B2C marketer into B2B or hiring a totally different function to come in

and run product marketing or...you know.

You know, I've hired people outside of SaaS.

Our company SalesLoft was based in Atlanta, so we just didn't have the

same pool of talent to pull from.

And so, we were pulling people out of consumer, but for, they were smart

choices, you know, advertising, brand, demand gen, not the core strategy pieces.

But I hired an engineer out of GE who had been a hardware product

marketer before and he's awesome.

He had really good super skills and project management and he

understood product launches.

So I think you can absolutely do that.

I also think that finding talent within your organization and bringing them in.

So I've hired from recruiting.

I've hired every chief of staff that we ever had.

I love office managers.

They're great field marketers because they're organized and

they can work well with people and they know how to plan events.

And so I think there's some really easy talent pools inside

the organization to pull from.

I think the one piece of advice I would give here that I learned was a

couple of times where I felt really strongly about a candidate that had

yellow flags in the interview process.

And so, you know, sometimes I've taken the risk on that and learned my lesson,

and sometimes I've taken the risk and it ended up being perfectly fine.

And the advice that I got was if people raise a yellow flag and you still feel

strongly, you have to go back to that person, acknowledge the yellow flag.

When you're doing your background checks, address that with as many people as

you can talk to and learn, and then be very clear with the candidate,

hey, this was a yellow flag, this is something we're going to work on.

And before you hire them, get agreement that yes, that is

something they want to work on.

And you start, you know, it's almost like you're working on your development

plan as they're coming in and helping them continue to work through that.

If you feel strongly, you can take that risk, but just be,

make sure everybody is aware.

My last question for you is one I ask I think almost

everybody and that is, do you have a favorite interview question?

So something that you like to ask that is really surprisingly revealing?

Kyle Porter asked me this question one time, and so it's become

my favorite question, which is "What is the one thing that you hold true

that others would challenge you on?"

And, you know, it's a deep thinker.

You have to like, that's a level three, we call it, like

that's a level three question.

And so I ask that one from time to time.

But what I would highlight is this notion of topgrading as an interview style.

And so rather than a question, I think it's more of a method.

And what I love about the topgrade process is you really learn about

the person in their journey.

Not the jobs and the accomplishments, but how they work, how they

work with people, how they make decisions, looking for patterns,

who influenced them in their life.

And so if you're not familiar with Topgrading, look it up, read it.

Send me a message on LinkedIn if you'd like a little coaching.

It's an amazing way to do a really deep-dive.

And it takes a while.

So it's an hour, hour and a half-long interview, depending on how long

the person's career path is.

But it's super insightful.

And you learn a lot about the person.

Yeah, I once did a topgrading interview for a company.

I did not get the job, but it entailed flying from Boston to Philly, going

to the airport, like, Hilton and sitting in a room with somebody.

And it was like maybe a six-hour interview.

I think mine was three.

I think we had to take a break and come back.

But I'm a talker, you know?

It's like, oh, you want to know about that?

Well, yeah, I know.

I mean, if you've been to it, I mean, I would say it's an hour per

ten years of experience, right?

At least, depending on how deep they want to go.

I think if you're a good interviewer, once you see a pattern,

you can kindly move them on.

So I learned, you know, you don't have to make it that long.

Well, Sydney, thank you so much.

This has been fabulous.

I've learned so much.

And I think that the listeners will, too.

So thank you.

It's been my pleasure, Erica.

Thank you for having me.

Happy '22.

That was Sydney Sloan, sharing lots of do's and don'ts about

how to scale in a transformational way, not just an incremental way.

Now that you've listened, ask yourself how can you be not just a marketing

leader, but a true market leader?

Thanks for listening to The Get.

I'm your host Erica Seidel.

Hiring great marketing leaders is not easy.

The Get is designed to inspire smart decisions around recruiting and

leadership in B2B SaaS marketing.

We explore the trends, tribulations, and triumphs of today's top

marketing leaders in B2B SaaS.

This season's theme is Solving for the Scale Journey.

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For other insights on recruiting great marketing leaders - what I

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