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Welcome to Episode 12
of the WebJoy podcast.

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I'm your host Eddie in this podcast,
we interview guests about their origin

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story and what makes them excited and
joyful to be part of the tech community.

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I hope you enjoy today's episode.

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"I Don't Know What is Wrong With
My Mind" with Francesco Cuilla.

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Eddie: Welcome to the
next episode of WebJoy.

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I'm excited to have
Francesco with us today.

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Hi, Francesco.

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How are you doing?

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Francesco: I'm doing well.

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I've worked all day.

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Today we had a launch for my company.

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So it has been a kinda tough day but
thank you so much for inviting me.

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Eddie: Well, thank you for joining us.

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For those who don't know you, do you
wanna just give a brief introduction

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about yourself, who you are, what you
do, where you work, that kind of stuff.

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Francesco: Yeah, sure.

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I'm Francisco from Rome, Italy.

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I'm currently a Developer
Advocate for Daily.Dev.

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I'm also Docker Captain sort of an
ambassador and I'm very active on social

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media, especially Twitter and YouTube.

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I have a podcast with about 200
episodes done in about two years.

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So I love podcasting.

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Eddie: Awesome.

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I love that 200 episodes in two years.

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That is very consistent.

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What did that feel like to
have to be that consistent?

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Have you gotten burned out on it?

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Are you excited for it?

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How do you kind of keep
the stamina up with that?

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Francesco: This is great.

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Usually I don't even talk about the
podcast because it's a podcast itself,

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so about this specific podcast, called
"Talking With" it's basically me

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talking with some friends of mine doing
similar streams sometimes are recorded,

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sometimes they are live streams.

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The first 100 episodes have been
done in 100 days and now I'm slowing.

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So now I'm slowing down, but it has
been a really an incredible journey.

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And it's one of the reasons why I also
now like this love, this kind of format.

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I also improved my English.

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My way of communication improved
a lot, I learned a lot and I've

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also met many people, many friends.

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Also famous YouTubers, but it's
really a podcast about tech.

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I love this format and I
love being on the other side.

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So thank you.

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Eddie: Yeah, absolutely.

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So how did you get
involved in all of this?

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What's the short version of your story.

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Francesco: To be honest, I've not
been a developer for all of my life,

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but just in the last seven years,
but I've been a volleyball coach.

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So I've been in the sports world for
about 20 years since I was 15 to 33.

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I've done a switch of career.

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And to be honest, I thought that I were
one of the few people who've done this

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switch of career I felt like different.

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Talking with people talking about their
stories in my podcast and also in person

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and also on Twitter and social media, I
felt less alone because 95% of the people,

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they are career switchers they were doing
something else before being developers.

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So in my case, I've always
loved the computers.

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I started with the Commodore 64.

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If you know what I'm talking
about, it means that you are old

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Eddie: oh, no.

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Francesco: Yeah,  nice.

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I always loved math science,
but for me computers, they

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were a way of play or relax.

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I never seen this as a job.

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Like I felt this a boring job,
I also computer science degree

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just to have just an idea of the
background, but I didn't like coding.

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So it was kind of strange, but at some
point in 2015, I decided to switch

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career and to really step into tech,
the initial reason it was professor in

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university said that I could not become a
developer because I didn't like to code.

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So if you say something to me, it's over.

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I want to prove that you're wrong.

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But of course I don't do this
anymore for that reason, but

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it was the spark just to start.

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I had zero in presence.

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My online presence started just in 2020.

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So we are talking about 2015.

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So I decided, okay, so now I
want to code how I do that.

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And I started with Unity 3D, so
C# and game development, because

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I found it more funny and engaging
instead of just some boring stuff.

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For me it was boring before.

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I worked a lot, learning private a lot.

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Every single day I stopped
going to the gym as a coach.

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So also some harder decisions for my life.

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And then long story short in
2017,   I found my very first job.

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And I've been kinda lucky you can
say, because I started working

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for European Space Agency.

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I had been working there for about
three years as a full stack developer.

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but it was super strange.

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Think about going from six hours in a gym.

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To sitting on a chair.

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Like every 30 minutes I
was going to the toilet.

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People thought that I were like having
rags or something like that, because

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you can't go to the toilet every 30
minutes, but I really couldn't sit.

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I still can't sit for long.

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I always have to walk, but that was not
the hardest part of being a developer.

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The hardest part of being a developer
for me was that I missed teaching.

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I've been a coach.

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I've also taught math physics
and chemist in high school.

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Both of my parents are teachers.

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So for me, teaching is a mission.

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So when I become a developer, I said,
okay, so, I will not be a teacher anymore.

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I will not teach something to someone.

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I stepped on social
media on Twitter in 2020.

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And after one, two months
I started creating content.

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And when I started creating content,
something clicked in my mind, because

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I could finally teach something,
share my knowledge with someone else.

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So this was really what
made me do everything I did.

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I was also very shy.

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Maybe you don't trust me, but trust me.

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So for me, even making a audio to
my colleagues, it was super awkward

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but then I made the social media
videos, on YouTube I have about

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320 videos in less than two years.

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So I've been pretty active now.

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I'm also a public speaker.

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I just back from the We Are
Developers conference, I've

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already been in four conferences.

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I've already two more scheduled.

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So it has been a very long journey.

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Eddie But I can say that it
has been totally worth it.

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Eddie: That's very interesting.

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I love that you were in the sports
world and you were teaching and

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coaching, and development  is
something you started to get into,

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but you realized you missed a piece.

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And I think a lot of times people
think that stuff is binary, right?

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Like, oh, I can do this,
or I can't do that.

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And they don't think about designing
the job that they are interested in.

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Right?

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Like designers can learn programming and
be UX engineers, where they're really

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close to the front end and people can
do developer relations and teaching

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content online and things like that.

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You don't have to be someone
who's playing with databases in

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a dark room to be a developer.

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And I love that the expansion of what's
possible is really coming out there.

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Francesco: I made there tweet exactly
about this because when I made

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this tweet, I got like 5,000 likes.

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I dunno why, but it was me saying,
like, I went from coding in a dark room

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with a black hoodie to jumping on a
stage as a public speaker and someone

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said, oh, you could turn on the lights.

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So thank you for that reply.

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Who said that, but you
get what I say that.

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It has been a very long journey.

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And I think that when something is
hard for you, you want someone else

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also to try that, because if I can be a
public speaker, everybody can do that.

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I'm sure you just need to put
some daily effort if you want.

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Of course.

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But I think that there are many people.

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Who like to be more
communicative as the developers.

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I think it's something that it's
a stereotype, but it's something

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that I think we are missing.

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I would love to help everybody
to focus more on this activity.

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We can say that can
also help us in our job.

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And also think that what
we're doing is great.

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So podcast talking about our lives, our
stories, but we don't have a monologue.

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So I'm just thinking out loud basically.

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Eddie: I think that's great.

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For developers who want to branch out.

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I think there's a lot of
different opportunities, right?

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Reach out to different podcasts.

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There's you know, this podcast,
you can reach out to me,

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Code Newbies is out there.

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Different podcasts who need
guests who have thoughts.

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A little bit more nerve-wracking but
throwing it out there go speak at a

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conference, there's Twitter spaces, right?

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There's no even video on
a Twitter space, hop in.

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I know you're in Twitter
spaces all the time.

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So if you're not following Francesco
follow him, when he, you see him in

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a Twitter space, hop in one of those
Twitter spaces and try to speak, right?

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Like just getting yourself out
of your comfort zone so that you

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can start to experience something
new and see if it clicks for you.

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Francesco: Yes, absolutely.

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And I can say this that now I have tried
everything Twitter Spaces, Live streams.

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I'm struggling now because there
is nothing that I haven't tried.

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I also tried the TikTok Instagram.

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Live I've tried everything.

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Literally, even if I'm almost 40, but
I can tell you that the reward is huge.

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I'm not talking about money or job
opportunities, which can also be

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nice, but the reward, for yourself
that you have done something that

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you thought that you could never do.

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And since this is challenging, this
is the reason why I do all of this.

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Someone asked me, I think
it was couple of weeks ago.

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Francesco, why are you doing this?

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Because I was not there for my company.

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I was not there for getting paid.

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The real reason why I decided
to go into public speaking.

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It is because it's something challenging.

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I like do challenges coming over
again from the sports world.

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I've done 100 interviews in 100 days,
I'm doing a challenge of posting one

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Web 3.0 content every single day.

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I think I'm close to 200 days in a row.

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So.

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I like challenges.

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And I also like to challenge myself and
I mean, I can also lose some challenges.

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I hate losing challenges, but
I think the reward is  great.

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Everything gets easier once you find
a way to do this for the first time.

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Eddie: So one other thing, kind of going
back earlier in your story, you mentioned

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you learned programming using Unity.

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You know, like in the video game
world,  like easy, medium difficult.

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That seems like you chose the difficult
option for learning programming.

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Was that intimidating to jump
directly into programming in Unity?

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Francesco: This is a great question and
I don't know what's wrong with my mind,

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but when something gets easy, I get bored.

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When something is hard, I get challenged.

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So my brain like wakes up.

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So I don't know why I'm like that.

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But I need something hard because
I want to prove that I can do that.

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It can be a blessing.

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It can be a curse having this twisted
mind, but I like to do something

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that can really challenge me.

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Let's try to start with something,
which is the hardest one.

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So I don't recommend that to do what I do.

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I never recommend to.

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What I do, because I think
there could be an easier path.

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I've also done everything
basically in private.

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It's hard because for example, if you
are on social media, if you're using

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social media presence, if you connect
with other developers, everything's

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easier sit alone and, you struggle.

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You can struggle like three
days on a bug and you can want

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to bang your head on the wall.

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So, this is why I don't suggest
to do the mistakes that I did.

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I felt overwhelmed.

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But this has been an incredible journey.

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I've been using Twitter, like in
January and February and March, on the

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5th of March, I said, okay, so let's
try to use social media a bit more.

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I got like thousands of followers
and at that point I was still

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doing a commute with my car three
hours every day to go to job.

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Yes.

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I was going to work with car.

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Two days after , I
started working from home.

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I said, okay, so now I have time
to do exactly what I decided to do.

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I dunno if you remember it in
Italy, we also had a very hard

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lockdown at the beginning.

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We were like the second state after China.

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So I was like, okay.

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So I got three more whole
hours every single day.

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I've seen this almost as a sign thing,
now or never because again, I've not

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been a social media guy all my life.

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And to be honest, now I'm very happy
that we are going back to reality

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because now people say, oh, Francesco
is the social media guy is very active

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on social media, but Twitter and
social media is not the real life.

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I would love to meet
some people in real life.

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Yes.

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We have to say this, that
there is the real life.

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And yes, I'll be in New
York, you know, some days.

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Maybe after or before, we'll
publish this one to meet many

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friends that I met on Twitter.

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And to be honest, I'm shocked
on how you can create a good

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friendship also on social media.

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Because again, I'm kind of old,
I'm almost older than internet.

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So for me, it's all start
a friendship on internet.

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It'll never be natural because this
was not what I was doing when I was 13.

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So for me, it's something strange.

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But I can say that.

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I met many amazing people

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.
Eddie: Awesome.

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That's great.

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One of the things we like to talk about on
this podcast is things that bring us joy.

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And so I just wanted to ask is there
something  whether it's community or a

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tool or really anything that you've done
or seen or used recently that brought you

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a lot of joy that you'd like to share?

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Francesco: Yeah, first of all this
question is incredible and I never got

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this and I think it's a great way to make
a question, but there are many things.

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I think the number one thing
is that by doing what I do.

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So being very active on social media now
also going to events, I feel the freedom.

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So I feel that I'm free
to do whatever I want.

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Now I'll take some days off
and I'll go to New York, but

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it's not even for my company.

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It's just to relax.

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I go to the Ethereum New York
event because I'm into Web 3.0.

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So it's an opportunity that I never
even thought like some years ago.

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I like talking with people, find
meaningful conversation, and I

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like to help if I can, I like
to teach, but this is in my DNA.

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I can't change it.

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And I like to also try
different kind of formats.

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So for example, this is a
podcast, in person events.

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I like to experiment
a lot on social media.

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We can say that I'm still
in the very early phase.

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I've been here for 2 years and half.

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So I really enjoying this and I also like
my role Daily.Dev I work for this company.

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Daily.Dev is a tool basically
to stay updated as a developer,

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by the way, it's totally free.

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This makes my life as developer
advocate super easy, because I

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just have to say, just test it,
you don't have to pay no premium.

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You don't have to pay a single cent.

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So I'm super happy to be an developer
advocate of a tool, which is basically

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free and it makes my job 10 times easier.

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Eddie: For sure.

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Hey, you wanna use this thing by the way?

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It's free much easier than,
Hey, you wanna do this thing?

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It costs a thousand dollars a year.

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Francesco: For sure.

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It's easier.

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Eddie: Well, that's awesome.

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I love you can definitely tell
with the kind of breadth of

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different things that you do, how
much you enjoy talking to people.

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Do you feel like there are
certain mediums that you've really

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been enjoying more than others?

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I mean, obviously, as you
said you've tried everything.

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Are there one or two that you feel
like are the most enjoyable for you?

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Francesco: Usually I
always do, what I like.

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So if we talk about numbers, for
sure, making a podcast on my YouTube

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channel is one of the best formats.

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And before it were recorded now,
sometimes I do also some live streams.

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Sometimes I record them, but this is
something that I really like to do.

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I also do for example, if I have
an idea, do some live coding.

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Have done live streams on
Twitch and of course Twitter.

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So Twitter spaces, we can talk
about what they are, but I think

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we need a separate episode.

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So yes, everything which involves creating
a genuine connection with someone.

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I really like that.

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I'm really, really enjoying this the last
two years have been really incredible.

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Eddie: Awesome.

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As we wrap up today, one thing we
always love to do is as a community,

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we love to support each other.

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And so we're just curious, if there's
anything that you'd like to share

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that you've been involved with, or
that you've worked on, that, you think

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the community might find helpful?

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Francesco: Two years ago, I've created,
a community called 4C, which stands

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for cool community of content creators.

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And we are about 2000 people.

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And basically it's a community where
you can get started with creating

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content, making collaborations,
making Twitter spaces together.

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we have calls every week, we support
each other, we talk about equipment, ways

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of creating content, articles, videos.

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So it's community specific to create
content and have created this community

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because I think that there are many
content creators that don't have the

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visibility they deserve because having a
social media presence and creating good

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content is not exactly the same thing.

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And so, especially in development, so
maybe you can create a great article, but

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nobody watches that because you don't have
the social media presence  I would like

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to give more visibility to those people.

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I have to say that creating a community
has been the hardest task for me since

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I started being active on social media.

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Even if I have a decent
social media presence.

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Because creating a community is harder.

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You have to work on this every single day.

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At the beginning, I was like,
shouting, like, join, join, join, join.

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Now I have an opposite approach.

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So I work more inside the community.

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we organize event.

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We organize stuff and yeah.

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If someone wants to join.

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It's great.

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But, for now I don't promote this 24 7,
like I've been doing in the beginning

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because I think that we are trying
to provide more value internally.

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So increasing the engagement inside the
community, we talk every single day.

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00:17:43,332 --> 00:17:47,532
And then I dunno, at some point we would
make other campaigns we can say, but

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I really enjoy this even if probably
it has been the hardest task for me.

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00:17:52,582 --> 00:17:53,062
Eddie: Awesome.

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00:17:53,222 --> 00:17:57,032
I think that's a great approach to say,
Hey, I'm just gonna focus on the community

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and investing in the community because
if people find value in the community,

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they're gonna tell other people.

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I think that's about it for this episode.

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Francesco, thank you
for joining us so much.

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00:18:07,477 --> 00:18:10,087
It's been a pleasure just
to talk and get to know.

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00:18:10,647 --> 00:18:11,007
Francesco: Nice.

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00:18:11,007 --> 00:18:11,907
Thank you so much, Eddie.

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00:18:11,907 --> 00:18:15,977
You are an amazing host and I
hope to collaborate soon again,

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00:18:16,077 --> 00:18:17,717
see you around on Twitter.

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00:18:18,957 --> 00:18:21,267
Eddie: Thanks for joining
us for Episode 12.

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00:18:21,657 --> 00:18:26,397
I don't know what is wrong with my
mind with Francesco Chula, you can

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00:18:26,397 --> 00:18:31,467
find out more about Francesco on his
website, Francesco chula.com or his

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00:18:31,467 --> 00:18:36,027
Twitter, Francesco C I U L L for.

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00:18:36,927 --> 00:18:39,897
You can find links to everything
we talked about in this episode,

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00:18:40,137 --> 00:18:44,067
as well as the link to Francesca's
website and Twitter in his show notes.

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If you enjoyed this episode.

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00:18:46,754 --> 00:18:50,619
Francesco: It's super, super important
to support the content creator.

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00:18:50,619 --> 00:18:54,386
So If you like this podcast, you know
what to do share with your friends.

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00:18:54,896 --> 00:18:59,156
And so we can keep going with
this podcast, you know what to do.

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00:18:59,775 --> 00:19:00,495
Eddie: That's right.

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00:19:00,915 --> 00:19:04,515
Help others discover this podcast
as well by rating and reviewing it

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00:19:04,515 --> 00:19:06,045
in your favorite podcast directory.

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00:19:06,375 --> 00:19:10,485
And don't forget to follow us
on Twitter at web joy, F M.

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00:19:11,085 --> 00:19:13,275
Thank you for listening
and have a great day