[00:00:00] I am welcoming a special guest on the podcast today. One I have come to known as a true friend in this online business world. Kajsa Kapanen is a multi passionate corporate manager. Entrepreneur, spiritual enthusiast, mom, and introvert. Originally from Finland, she lives with her family in the Netherlands and has built a life and career that works on her terms.

[00:00:26] I secretly believe that anyone from the Nordic countries is light years ahead of the rest of the world when it comes to managing your own energy, setting boundaries. Putting life, mental space and sanity first. And Kajsa is someone who fuels that theory for me. We have worked together on multiple occasions in the past few years.

[00:00:48] She has helped me with her online business and website expertise. I have offered support in her corporate journey and career progression. This conversation is going to sound a lot more like a catch up among friends than anything else. We're talking about how Kajsa's career ambition shifted from feeling like she didn't belong in the corporate world to suddenly stepping into her first leadership experience about how important it is to see introverts in leadership positions.

[00:01:20] And how we sometimes need to become the role models and advice we need the most. I love how Kajsa takes us into a bold career decision she made earlier this year and brings to life how building a career that works for you often takes a lot of self reflection, courage, and the willingness to say things out loud that you think are gonna kill your career.

[00:01:45] I am pretty sure this will not be the last time you're going to hear from Kajsa on this podcast. NOw, without further ado, join us on this beautiful conversation. All right, here we go. Kajsa, welcome to the awfully quiet podcast. I'm so glad to have you today.

[00:02:04] you for having me. I'm very excited.

[00:02:07] I'm really excited for us to have this conversation today. And, before getting started, I thought back the first time we connected. And it's been a while ago. It feels like we've become, what do they call it, Instagram friends. We've never met in real life, but we've had loads and loads of conversations, voice notes, and also, you know, virtual connects, so to speak.

[00:02:33] But I think the first time we connected was when I was looking for introverts in the workplace. And you offered to be interviewed by me. And it was when I first started out with my business and wanting to look into, you know, what are the wants and needs of introverts in the workplace? How do they feel about career progression?

[00:02:54] And we've had a first conversation. And I remember you telling me in that conversation that, you were quite happy at the time of where, where you were at in your career. You were like. I'm not really seeing myself going into a leadership position. I don't really want all that. I don't need to have, leadership responsibility necessarily and fast forward.

[00:03:15] I think it didn't take more than six months. You reach out to me and said. Oh, I just, I just got a leadership position and I'm just, I'm just going into this experience and onto this journey. And that's, what I remember stand out at the beginning. And, that's where I want to start this conversation.

[00:03:34] So talk to me about that shift that happened between, Oh, I'm not really seeing myself as a leader. That is not part of the plan. I don't really want to become a leader in an organization to actually making it into that role and how it feels like today.

[00:03:52] Yeah, indeed. when we 1st connected, I had not only did I not have any plans to become or to move into a leadership positions or management positions. I actively did not want it. And and my manager at the time was often asking me, well, what are your goals and what are your goals? And for the 1st time, I didn't have any, I didn't.

[00:04:14] I didn't, I was just happy coasting along and maybe it had something to do with that. My child was very little. There was covert. I also had back then. I had my, site business, in in web design and I thought, well, I'm just corporate is. I'm happy just coasting along and I don't, I don't really want it.

[00:04:31] and then what happened was that we had. There was,well, I don't know, but if you want to call it like a me too movement more publicly going on in the Netherlands, and a lot of companies were also in organizations were waking up to do we have to look into our culture? Do we have to look into, their psychological safety?

[00:04:49] And we had this courageous conversations within our team to look into our program. We had 75 people at the time and in that conversation in those discussions, everyone came out with. There was a question for what would you want to see differently in the future and everyone had the same sort of answer and it was more diversity in leadership, more female leadership, more emotional intelligence in leadership, more listening type of leadership, more softer values in leadership, including myself.

[00:05:23] These were the wishes that I put on paper and, yeah, and after that meeting, after that gathering, I thought, well, here we are all sitting around waiting for these magical women to come and save us. And I thought, well, aren't I. The answer to my own prayers and it, aren't I that woman and it was like a haunting realization and it was, it would not leave me alone.

[00:05:55] And I thought, well, yeah, why not me actually? Like, why not me? And I, because I never actively wanted it. It took a while to realize. Why not me? Why not me? And then, I realized, yeah, actually, it's me. It's, it's, it is me. Who else would be more suitable to lead me than someone like me? So that was kind of the, that was kind of the process that I, that I went through.

[00:06:26] And then at the time I told my manager. I went after the realization, I went back to my manager and I said, well, actually, you asked me what my ambition is and I want your job. I didn't say it exactly in those words, but I said, this is actually my ambition. I want to lead this team and I think I will be very good at it.

[00:06:46] And I didn't honestly think it would kind of be possible in that. in, in the, in the circumstances where we were at the time, but something magical happens when you voice your desires and you're very clear and intentional with what you want, because I cannot explain it in any other ways. It felt like the oceans parted.

[00:07:07] In front of me, every single puzzle piece that I could have imagined and those that I couldn't even imagine fell to place and within a few months that that position was mine. And that was. Yeah, that was, and that's when I reach out to you and said help, because now I have a leadership position and I don't know what to do with it.

[00:07:30] So, I think just a few months before I started, or even the month that I started, we had our 1st session. Yeah, that was pivotal.

[00:07:39] There are so many things in what you say that I loved. and I want to come back to that moment where the oceans parted and it felt like, you were, you were free to go. But what was so crucial in that is that you put in the ask and that you voiced your ambition to go into that leadership position, but.

[00:07:57] I want to take a step back to where you started saying, or voicing your why and the reason why you got inspired to do that. It wasn't for ego reasons. It wasn't because you saw yourself as a leader and as somebody who, you know, kind of paves the way for the future of the organization, but you saw a need in the organization to shift its mindset around what leadership means and who you need to.

[00:08:22] To inspire that next level of where the organization needs to go. And what you said there was, there was a need for more diversity. There was a lead for a different style of leadership. And, where I want to start is with. What we often perceive as leadership from a conventional perspective. So I often think that when we hear leadership, we think of a certain kind of person.

[00:08:45] So what was that shift that needed to happen in leadership? So what do you think is the conventional type of leader? And what do you think is the next level leader, the future leader that was really required in where your organization was at at the time?

[00:09:02] Well, many angles, but, I think, yeah, traditionally, you see, well, I'm in financial services. So, traditionally it is very male male dominated, very, well, it depends, but leadership especially is male dominated to maybe. Extrovert dominated, or those kinds of qualities are always the ones that seem to succeed or seem to get more most publicity.

[00:09:27] And I always felt I started working in 2007. so it's, it's a while ago already. And I always felt like a misfit. Like, I didn't fit also simply because I didn't see myself represented in leadership and then I think, well, to promote diversity, to have the representation for the, for the other half of the of the population within organizations.

[00:09:52] it's also good to have an exam. Yeah. Examples that you see yourself how important it is that you see yourself in the leaderships in the leader in the leaders of your of your organization. But I had a good example. just earlier this year where I entered a position that I thought that was my dream and it ended up not being my dream.

[00:10:16] And I want to talk about, like, the leadership, misfit that we had there and why I ended up leaving after 4 months was that my style was to come into a new team from bottom up. Let's say, so I would come in from the bottom up, meaning that I'm going to sit back and listen. I'm going to connect with people on the floor.

[00:10:41] I make sure that the foundation is there. I really want to understand what is going on and lay kind of the foundation. And then when I start rising up from there, I take everyone with me, but that takes time. And then that's not always appreciated. And I felt there where the mismatch was that the expectation was to come from above and start barking orders, which looks somehow more acceptable. It looks more successful. It looks assertive. It looks Like, hey, here's a successful leader, but at the end of the day, depends on the Barker, but it's not guaranteed that the people want to follow you. Whereas I think the difference is that when you come from bottom up and you make sure that.

[00:11:29] The connections are there, the listening is there, the empathy is there, and it's all really about the connection. I think that makes much more powerful impact and it's a much more long lasting impact. And when I rose to the. To the leadership to the team lead position, around the time that we connected, the team was, not doing very well.

[00:11:51] Everyone was looking for. Actually, everyone was looking for other positions because it wasn't the people were not in the right place. People didn't feel seeing people didn't feel hurt. So it was the team was about to fall apart. And what I. really, really loved seeing is that when the ship was made and I was able to be the lead of that team, I had so many colleagues that came to me and said, Kajsa, if you stay, I stay.

[00:12:15] And then I think, isn't, isn't that so beautiful? They said, where you go, I will follow. And this is the, the power of, I think, introvert leadership, sensitivity in leadership that you will create teams that people just will want to follow you. And I know I can call these people on a Sunday night at 8 o'clock with, I would never and I have never, but the point is I could, and they would walk fire through fire for me because I would do the same.

[00:12:43] And that's we have the human connection. we have personal connection and, you cannot beat that.

[00:12:52] I love that you're sharing that. And, it's kind of rising to the occasion in terms of, becoming a leader of that team and becoming somebody that makes the team feel seen and heard. Those are the two things that I'm kind of taking away from what you were just saying in terms of like, what. Does make somebody feel engaged.

[00:13:13] What does make somebody want to deliver great work for a team and for a leader? Because at the end of the day, and we all know this, the leadership in an organization in a team is. Is, is a big, big factor in how somebody feels and the work that somebody delivers and whether they are more inclined to stay on and do great work for the team in the future.

[00:13:37] So, that's what I want to stay with for a couple minutes here in terms of like what does great leadership look like from that perspective. You referenced half the population and half the organization, because it's true that, almost half the population is introverted and is, less likely to be seen by the more conventional leader, so to speak, by the ones barking orders, by the ones who come in and hit the ground running and, you know.

[00:14:05] Bells and whistles and all that. So what do you think makes great leadership for you? What is the kind of leadership that you wanted to instill in the organization and the kind of leader that you wanted to become because you were feeling like there was a mismatch, there was a lack, there was a gap in the organization.

[00:14:23] What do you think that looks like? What's the perfect leader for the introverted population in your organization?

[00:14:30] yeah. And I'm not sure if it's always,that the introvert always needs another introvert for, for leadership, but, I wanted there, or I would want it to my dream, but there would be a more understanding of the diversity and, and, and we look at diversity a lot. Already, but it's still not I think it's still not on the level of introvert extrovert and the sensitivity as well.

[00:14:53] People are sometimes saying to me, oh, did you see diversity in the cafeteria today? No, because I don't see diversity from introversion extroversion. You don't see sensitivities. I think it's the understanding of, of different types that you have, and the understanding that you have to. handle different types differently and also the understanding that, we do need each other.

[00:15:16] We need the, the red types and the more, direct types and the more, the assertive, aggressive types. We need, we need, we need those, but we also need, but the focus is often too much on that population, but we also need The quiet ones, we need the structured ones. We need the depth that comes with the quiet ones and we need the perspective that comes and someone who understands that and someone who can, yeah, bring the message forward.

[00:15:48] Like you said, I don't, it wasn't my intention. It still is and it will never be to rise up for myself. That that's I don't I almost like, I wouldn't want to do it, but I somehow it's also this like a mission of I don't do it for myself. I do it for the next generation because I do it for the ones that were like me or are like me when, when I started, we don't see themselves represented and then may think, oh, corporate is not for me because I don't see anyone. I had that experience as well. And I left corporate because I thought, well, this is not for me. I'm burning out. I cannot handle this culture.

[00:16:27] Had there been someone who would have been more coaching, more listening, more, understanding my strengths. And then putting, putting me or guiding me into into that direction, then I would have maybe had a, a more easier start for my corporate. But then I thought, well, this is just the way things are.

[00:16:48] There's something wrong with me. I don't fit in. It must be me. Everyone else is seeming to do it. So easy. Everyone else is easy. So it's my fault. And only recently, thanks to also our coaching, I have learned how much power there is. In the things that I thought that were weakness that were my weaknesses.

[00:17:10] so I, I want to see leadership. That that kind of leadership examples and also to, yeah, just to make sure that people feel that there's someone who will drive someone who will drive this who will, yeah, to, to ring the bells for the introverts and for the highly sensitive. If it has to be me, let it be, let it be me.

[00:17:38] And I thought I can, I have enough tools now in my, in my backpack, let's say to endure discomfort if it paves the way for someone else. So that, that then it becomes more like a mission, whether I choose to accept it or not. I don't know how, you know, I'm, I'm, we'll see what the future brings, but yeah.

[00:18:07] I feel like it's such important work to become the 1 who pays the way and to become the 1 who role models for others and to be the 1 that others see themselves. And as you said, you didn't feel represented in many ways and corporate. And therefore you felt like. Corporate wasn't for you. Leadership wasn't for you.

[00:18:26] So daring to be the person who stands up for others and who do, who does that to pave the way for others is, is so meaningful and it feels like such, so much more powerful than just, going into leadership for your own. Personal gain for your own career progression. So it feels like a bigger why behind.

[00:18:48] And one of the things I just thought of in terms of your corporate experience is, did you end up enjoying corporate more when you stepped into your leadership position and when you got to call some of the shots and when you got to, shape some of what your organization looks like from a leadership perspective?

[00:19:06] Well, the funny thing is that as soon as I started enjoying myself, promotion came also, like then that there was the freedom to be myself. And I. Created that shift for me was, was kind of, uh, mind blowing and pivotal because I thought, well, as I said, I left corporates, and I was away for three years, three and a half years.

[00:19:30] And then I came back and I thought, okay, I will come back, but I will only do things that I love and I will only do things that I have joy in. And then, that's what I did. And, but when I fully stepped into, okay, this is me. I am like this. This is what I want. I will just have fun with with my colleagues.

[00:19:50] I will do the work that I'm here to do. and there was such liberation in that that I felt, I think their promotion and what came was was due to that. And I've talked to my, my manager at the time. I talked to him recently and he, we had a, like, mentoring session and he said that. That was the time that I stepped into my power and I came out of my shell was when I voiced my ambitions and said, you know what?

[00:20:20] I want to actually have this, a team lead, position. And that's also a nice. To hear from an, from an outsider that it's because that's how it also felt a little bit that that was always a lot of fear holding me back, which I realized during our coaching that no wonder that I had so actively avoided leadership position because I had so many negative beliefs that I needed to reframe because I thought.

[00:20:48] If I step up, I will lose my private life. I felt like I wasn't smart enough. I felt like, it wasn't fulfilling my bigger mission in life. And I felt, the, all these kinds of, negative beliefs that were stopping me from actually making the step, but there's so much liberation when you actually free yourself from the fear that you have.

[00:21:12] that's where the. The freedom comes and that's where the, where you feel like you can be fully yourself because there is no fear. And that's when you are fully yourself, you are magnetic actually.

[00:21:26] Yeah, you mentioned, you came back into corporate, but. You would only do the things that you love. So I think that is a big, big shift to make because so often we try, we try to fit into a system. We try to fit into a certain expectation that, you know, that society has of us, that corporate has of us, that our team leads have of us.

[00:21:50] And you did it the other way around. You said, okay, I'm going to go back into corporate, but I'm going to make it work for me. And what did that look like? So what are the things that you love? What are the things that you were looking for? How did you shape your experience to say, this is what I want to do.

[00:22:08] Here's how I'm going to approach it. Here's how I'm going to attract more of that.

[00:22:17] to that realization. So it wasn't that it wasn't like an easy fix to, and it was kind of like a screwed moment. And I thought, well, I can't, I tried so long to fit in and I just can't. So let it, let it be. And I'll just accept my fate and I'll just, You know, it is what it is.

[00:22:37] And the irony of that is that as soon as I accepted my fate and said that, then that's when things actually started to really speed up in financial reward in positions. I lost my train of thought.

[00:22:53] The things that you, what I wanted to get at were the things that you discovered about yourself that you love and that you wanted to do

[00:23:00] Yeah. For me, what always was was,important is to have fun at the office and that I always thought, well, you can't be a serious professional and have fun. But I thought, well, I need fun with my, my colleagues. So I want to have laughter. I want to have fun. I want to have connections, I want to do the kind of projects that really inspire me.

[00:23:22] I want to have the kind of position that really feels like it fits me regarding regardless. If that's if it looks good on my CV, that was a big 1 because I thought, well, this is, you know, I should do more. I should aim higher. But, you know, you know, this is. The kind of roles that I'm happiest in something that comes naturally to me, something that is not too easy, but still that just comes feels like innate, you know, those kinds of positions I want to go for and then also to really shape my environment in the sense and be choosy.

[00:23:59] Always, I'm always choosy with the manager because that influences me a lot, choosy with your environment in the sense that I want a certain type of international environment and certain type of diversity that makes me feel the best, you know, those kinds of, you have a much more defined list and then if it doesn't come true, yeah, also to have the courage to leave, which was a big one also for me to learn this year is that the dream, the dreams are not always It's a process.

[00:24:30] Long term dreams, and they don't always turn out the way you want, but to stand in your truth and say, after 4 months, you know what, I'm leaving. that was a big thing for me this year because I thought this doesn't fit me. My, I would want to stay actually and push myself and 10 years ago, I would have stayed and tried to mold myself to fit and I was so proud of myself.

[00:25:00] And I realized, you know what, I'm leaving because I don't fit. It's not good for me. And then I knew, okay, something has been internalized. I have learned some of the steps, at least along the way. And that's how you build confidence in yourself. Also, it's not always with the success. It can be in the, in the failures that how you handle them and how you see your own growth and how you see that the things that you are afraid of don't actually happen.

[00:25:33] They don't actually necessarily even the things we are afraid of is often so much worse than the

[00:25:42] I was, I was really impressed with that decision that you made. Not everyone would have would have made it, 4 months into a new position to decide, well, this is actually not for me and it's actually that point in time where everyone recognizes us. Either this role is for me or it's not for me and most of us stick it out for the 2 years that you're going to be on the role.

[00:26:03] Right? no, rarely does anybody say, well, this role is not for me stays within the same organization and pivots into a different role. That is a better fit. So. I was really impressed with that to begin with. And then what I think helped you do that was this inner compass that you build this kind of decision matrix of here's what's important to me in a job.

[00:26:26] Here's what's important to me in a role. That's what I want out of my career. Here's my criteria and that inner compass. We often refer back to that as, you know, here's this is what what I stand for. This is my personal brand. This is what other people are. This is what I want other people to remember about me.

[00:26:45] But what it also is, is it is an enabler to make decisions. It's it's for you to decide whether something is for you or not. And sometimes we don't see it prior to going into a new opportunity prior to going into a new position. And, it's, it's often also something that we, we continue to shape over time.

[00:27:07] And we continue to collect data points off. This is for me. This is not for me. And I feel like that's something that you became really, really strong in, deciding and being rooted and anchored into that inner compass, into your personal brand. And it's what made it really powerful for you when you got yourself out of this situation.

[00:27:29] and it wasn't. I must say still. It wasn't without fear. And when I went to, because these, my managers at the time, were very. much assertive, I don't want to use the word aggressive, but more. More assert much more assertive. I am very much conflict avoidant. I was nervous as hell going into that discussion.

[00:27:52] and I had prepared it and I, but I thought I cannot stay out of fear. You know, I don't want to make decisions out of fear if I would have stayed, I would have purely stayed out of fear because I was afraid that I'm going to burn all my bridges. These are influential people high up in the organization.

[00:28:11] I'm going to upset all of them. this is kind of I wanted to stay in the organization. So I thought. Actually, maybe the strategic thing to do is to stick it out, but I would have done that for fear and I would have stayed and I would have been resentful and it's not good for me. And it's not good for the organ.

[00:28:32] And I had, I went into these conversations and I thought I can only be just radically honest and. That's that's the only thing I can do. So, there is nothing else for me to do, but just to really open up and be radically honest why the role is not for me and why the team is not a fit for me and decisions that I've had an open conversations that I've ever had and it was, it turned out to be a really beautiful experience because. They appreciated my honesty. They appreciated that I knew myself so well that I knew that, okay, this is not a fit for me. Because if it's not a fit for me, it's not a fit for them.

[00:29:08] It's not, there's no one way, fit.

[00:29:11] I would

[00:29:11] actually love you to, to to take us into that day of the conversation because I'm just, I'm just thinking about this. I'm just trying to see myself in this situation, going into a meeting, into a conversation with, you know, leadership at that time kind of voicing. That mismatch voicing that you're not happy in that in that role that you feel like you are not set up for success.

[00:29:39] You won't be able to strive, thrive in that role. What does that take take us into that? What does the day look like? What are the things that you say on the meeting? How did you prepare for that? paint a

[00:29:50] Well, I overly prepared, you know, I had my script, I have my things, I was like, ready. It was, the initial conversation was on, on teams, which is, it felt somehow safer. second conversation that I had was in person, which was beautiful. so, but, yeah, hands shaking, sweaty armpits, the red face, you know, the, you know, the,

[00:30:14] The usual.

[00:30:17] but I thought I'm just going to keep it.

[00:30:20] Close to myself. I don't want to criticize anyone. I don't want to blame anyone. I just will keep it close to my feelings. And what can they do? And I thought, what, what can happen? What can actually happen? 1 of the learning points this year for me is anyway to sit with my feelings and not to be so afraid of my emotions, because it is actually my own emotion that I'm afraid of guilt.

[00:30:42] just all those kinds of, negative emotions that might come up. But I just. Really went straight to the point, and said, I have decided to step out of the team and these are the reasons and I gave to, and I didn't want to too much elaborate because just, and I gave 2 reasons and I said, what the, the role was not.

[00:31:06] The role turned out to be a little bit different and it didn't match my, I didn't feel that it matched my, personality and also it didn't, it was so operational to operational, which didn't match my nervous system. And I've learned to listen to my body because at that point, I wasn't sleeping. I was losing hair.

[00:31:23] I mean, this position was really affecting me and my family and my nervous system needs something else. something a bit more quiet and on the other hand, in the team, I was feeling that the expectation was to be more assertive, more red, a dominant type. I'm not that type and the discrepancy between who I am and how I do business, how I work versus.

[00:31:50] What the underlying my gut feeling isn't the kind of the feedback that I get, how I should be. That if that mismatch is big, I lose sleep and I don't want to it's not a match. So there it's from both sides. And if it would be only 1 side, maybe we could reconsider to try to make it work. But my decision was not to not to make it work because it was on all sides

[00:32:22] So you,

[00:32:23] and what can

[00:32:25] so you

[00:32:25] I prepare.

[00:32:26] your points that you were going to make in terms of reasons why it wasn't working for you. You also mentioned that you made it, you know, I feel statements, in terms of

[00:32:38] like, you didn't put the blame on them. And you said, here's what I need to thrive and to succeed.

[00:32:43] And it's not. I don't have that at the moment. So you, and you also came in with a very strong statement and a decision of I have decided to leave. So, again, you made a very clear statement

[00:32:57] intention was there. Yeah.

[00:32:59] yeah, there was a very clear intention. So how did they react to that?

[00:33:04] Well, it was a better much better than I expected in my head. And I had different such different expectations, but,well, really well. And I think because, they were surprised perhaps that my decision was so resolute, but they recognized that, I just, there wasn't, I, my, the best self, the best me didn't have the chance to come forward.

[00:33:32] And that was, yeah, what that you cannot, nobody can, they cannot argue with my feelings. They, they tried to understand the reasons and they did understand the reasons. And, yeah, I think it was disappointing for all of us, but it was also extremely disappointing for me because I had told the entire world that this was my dream job.

[00:33:54] I was like, on the, on the highest mountain in August, you know, or June or whatever, June, July, when I started and when I received the news that I got this job, I thought this was the cherry on the cake of my entire career. And then I have to turn around and said, yeah, you know what it's it isn't. And that's okay.

[00:34:17] And one of my colleagues said beautifully like, um, cause I was wondering why was it a dream and then it wasn't. And he said, I think it was a dream and it was meant to be in that moment for both of us. But again, who's to say how long should it be a dream? Just because it took 4 months. Was it not the dream?

[00:34:35] I think it was the dream and I learned so much and I will be better for it. moving forward, but it, it may look those, yeah, it may look like easy shifts and at the end, it was beautiful conversations. And at the end, I really got that connection that I was craving for kind of the whole time. But, yeah, you just have to go against somehow, but like, at least for me, it's important that I don't choose based based on fear, just because I'm afraid of it.

[00:35:11] If that's the only reason is not the reason to stay is not a reason to choose. And then I was wondering throughout these conversations, I thought, and I out loud wondering how beautiful and different life would be if we would always be, if we would always have that level of radical honesty with each other at work.

[00:35:34] Because when I said that I want to leave, I had one month of,a period that I, had to stay

[00:35:41] notice periods.

[00:35:41] that month was, was the most fun month of my, of my working in the team because the truth was on the table. Not I didn't have to hold back. Everything was out in the open and it was just, there was no resistance.

[00:35:54] And then I thought, well, imagine if we could always be

[00:35:58] honest about ourselves what we want. It's not. Something that is matching, and I think 1 thing that I do take away from this is that next time if such a situation would occur, I would voice it earlier that I could voice it. Not not come with a message I'm leaving

[00:36:18] and that being already so resilient, but learning to voice that.

[00:36:23] I don't feel like this is a match, or I don't feel this is good for me or whatever it is. That we tend to hide because we think we need to appear so strong or somehow capable all the time, voicing that doubt or voicing the fear earlier.

[00:36:42] Yeah, yeah, yeah. A couple of things in there that I really like is the, you know, if it's only fear that's holding you back, you have to do it. If it's, it's, if it's only fear of going against the stream, if it's fear of doing things that are not normal in an organization, it's not normal to, to leave a role after four months.

[00:37:06] Right. and to really dare to go for it. And I feel like that's why you are such a great role model and such a great leader because we need more people who are. open and honest about these experiences and open to sharing these things and saying them out loud. Because that's what's going to inspire others to do the same and to voice their, their, their wants and needs and what it is they're trying to do.

[00:37:31] And I feel like that is often the blocker to career fulfillment, that big thing that we're all striving for. what does career fulfillment look like? Well, it looks like a lot of messy Very, bold, painful decisions after another, right? It's, it's a lot of courage that is required to build a, to build career fulfillment and to go towards that.

[00:37:56] So I really love that you're sharing that. I really love that you're sharing some of that, those vulnerable moments. because it inspires others to do the same.

[00:38:06] And, and that, that I think that is the key that it's, it's very cliche, but it starts with your, with leading yourself and knowing yourself. And if you know yourself, you can lead yourself.

[00:38:24] Is not selfish because that allows what you're saying that allows other people to follow theirs. And imagine if we all followed our comp and it's what what most brought us joy that would most bring us joy. And I mean, that would just make the world a whole lot better. So it starts with. With doing just what you yourself want to do, and we are somehow so trained against it.

[00:38:51] You know, I, we have this. Oh, at least I do. I want to praise. Oh, I want to be the good girl. I want to, you know, have the metal and do the thing and please everyone else. You know, I have these people pleasing tendencies, but somehow I am not 1 of those people. It's always the others. That somehow get more, air space in your head and, and to, to learn that it's not selfish, but it's actually the greatest gift that you can give humanity is to really be authentically yourself

[00:39:25] And would you say in hindsight that the more you dare to be who you are, and the more you dare to ask for what it is that you want, you've got more praise, you've got more of the, you know, let's say medals and

[00:39:38] or money, better jobs. Life is easier. Everything is more fun.

[00:39:43] So is it, is it that we have to become selfish first, that we have to kind of, you know, Start with ourselves, get to know ourselves really well, understand what it is that we truly want, and then dare to say that, dare to voice that in order for us to be seen and heard and acknowledged by, our environment in the workplace.

[00:40:03] Yeah, because if you're trying to be someone, you're not. It's not really magnetic. It's not really helping anyone because you are there to bring your full self to the table and that's where the magic is in your full self. And it's not like I, I, this is not an everyday flow for me that I'm always magically fully myself, but it's an ongoing practice because when we are fulfilled, we are happy and the ripple effect of that.

[00:40:33] Is so much greater than if we are striving, pushing, forcing unhappy, insecure, we have imposter syndrome. That's what happens when you are trying to fit somewhere where you don't fit. Yeah, that's not really benefiting anyone.

[00:40:50] we've talked a lot about what it looks like to be your full self and how, how, how to embrace who you are, or you also mentioned that you found some power in your weaknesses through the work that we've done on your personal brand and figuring out what it is that you want, who you are, what you do really well, what it is that you're trying to achieve, would you mind giving some examples of, what those things are that you uncovered about yourself that you felt are True to you are something that you may have considered a weakness before, but we're actually really powerful about you.

[00:41:25] What does it look like to be your full self? What are these elements?

[00:41:29] Well, 1 of the, the, we talked a lot in the, in the coaching also about, like, leadership style, which I didn't think that I had, but it turns out I had and, and, the personal brand. And I think for me, it was. The, the, the way the difference of what I do, what I do and how I do it. And I, it finally clicked for me because my, on, on one hand, I'm very corporate.

[00:41:54] And on the other hand, you know, I have done a lot of, coaching and yoga and I, my beliefs are very spiritual and that world just seemed always like something I needed to hide. It's not really going together with corporate. And, the, the kind of. Connection that I want to make with people didn't feel like that fits fits incorporate and I realized that fits very well incorporates and that fits very well anywhere.

[00:42:24] What I do is perhaps I, yeah, I project manage projects within financial services. That's 1 thing, but how I do it. It's all about there, I bring with me the whole history of, of, of coaching or beliefs and concepts from yoga or spirituality and connection and the joy of life and those kinds of things.

[00:42:49] That's how I do my work. And I think that was a big understanding for me that, that, that I can bring those and that can be my competitive advantage also don't need to be competitive with anyone, but that can that is my.

[00:43:03] Your edge, your what makes you unique, what makes you different.

[00:43:07] Yeah, that makes me different. And instead of hiding it, I should lean towards it.

[00:43:14] and I always thought because I want to make such good connections with people, I always choose the connection versus business, you know, so I would suck in sales because I just want to connect and not, you know, I would rather I don't I cannot be the bad cop at work. I'm always the good cop, but there's also so much power in that.

[00:43:36] So, if you just lean into it. And, you know, that that is your style that there's and you realize the strength in those elements. yeah, that's a really big shift

[00:43:49] You mentioned building connections. How do you build connections? I often feel like, there is this misconception around introverted personalities that they don't really like to build connection that they don't, that it's not something that is inherent to them. To us in terms of collaborating at work, getting other people to do the work to do the work on time.

[00:44:11] How do you do those things? How do you build connection? How do you get other people to deliver? Because that's a big thing in project management, right? It's getting everyone to, deliver on time, chasing people. How do you go about that? Yeah.

[00:44:31] 1 day. This will be my strategy, but. It comes naturally is that I just love people. And indeed, I'm an introvert. I don't like a bunch of people at the same time, but I love 1 on 1 connection. So I always really spend a lot of time, especially the beginning to get to know people because not because I want to advance my career later.

[00:44:50] But because I'm interested, like, I don't care about the role that you have, but I want to know about you as a person. I want to know. I ask questions. I am just genuinely. So curious. What's where did you grow up? What do you believe in? are you happy? How, how, what does your wife do for a living? What are the, I, I.

[00:45:11] Want to get to know people, because I believe that if I just dig long enough, I find something that we have in common or maybe we have the same study. Maybe we are both not originally from this country. Maybe our kids are the same age, whatever it is. And then we have this connection and I know that when we have something in common, the connection is there and then I can build on that.

[00:45:34] But it will be, of course, I will ask for things, but I will also give equally back if not more, you know, so I, I do believe in that, that kind of energy exchange as well. And indeed, my work is a lot of chasing. So, but I believe that you get more flies with honey or more bees with honey. that's my approach.

[00:45:57] And it has worked wonders so far and I like it because. It's really, it's really nice to build environments where you are genuinely where you can genuinely be presence as a person because we are, we cannot, we don't have, we don't just bring our work selves to work. Obviously. We are our whole beings.

[00:46:24] Yeah, you mentioned to me at some point that you had a couple of associates in the team and they're different personalities. And, you know, some of them introverted, some of them not. And I absolutely agree with your point in saying that. it's not always. You know, introverts need to be led by introverted leaders and extroverts need extroverted leaders.

[00:46:47] I feel like there is this beauty of everything coming together and there being a good mix of personalities on the team. How did you, you as a leader, for your specific team, how did you deal with different personalities on the team? How did you, you know, what kind of conversations that you have with them?

[00:47:05] Did you ever talk to them about their personalities? Was that ever part of the conversation when it was about? You know, personal development growth, how they would progress in the organization. what would that look like?

[00:47:16] I'm always so fascinated about the Myers Brooks profile. So I'm, I'm like, obsessive about knowing that for the people because it tells me so much about the personality type, but I. I think different people need different level of attention, different people need. Some people need more attention.

[00:47:38] Some people need more personal connection. And of course, this was a interesting situation for me because I, the people I was leading, I was direct colleagues with them for a few years. So we knew each other in that sense very well. And then all of a sudden. I became the team lead. So it was, in that sense, maybe a different situation if you would come in and you are leading, starting to lead a team with people you don't know.

[00:48:02] But, yeah, I think it's just having the interest in, in the, in the different personalities of people. And also the knowledge that different people need different styles. My style is not Or the way I would do things, it's not necessarily the best way to do things. It's more, trying to stay open and flexible and listening more than talking.

[00:48:24] But I think as introverts, we are quite good at it.

[00:48:29] Amen. listening, listening, more than talking and truly listening. it's definitely a skill that I feel, a lot of introverts have down and, and there's a little bit of a competitive advantage.

[00:48:42] Yeah, yeah, for sure.

[00:48:45] Because I'm looking at the time and I'm thinking, what I find so, so powerful about your experience and it's up and downs and the journey that you've been through in the past couple of years, if there was someone in their career right now, thinking about, you know, what. Do the next couple of years look like?

[00:49:03] What can I, where do I see myself? Do I see myself in a leadership position or not? am I a good fit for corporate or not? Am I the, the next person to start paving the way to role model? to become somebody who is unapologetically themselves, who is introverted, and who goes down the path of leadership and, becoming that person that others see themselves in, what would you, what would you recommend them do?

[00:49:33] How would you, what would you say to them in terms of like. You know, either go for it or we'll think about it, or what would you say to somebody who was not really sure whether leadership is for them or whether the corporate experience is for them.

[00:49:49] Well, I would recommend coaching. That would be the, that is always helpful. I'm always doing some kind of coaching, but I think it's, it's truly getting really clear in yourself. What do I want? What gives me the most joy? What gives me pleasure? And then not thinking about what looks good on my CV. What, should I do as the next step or what kind of steps I should be making all the shifts that we have.

[00:50:14] No, what. Do I want to do what gives me the most pleasure? What gives me what is what is most fun for me to do? And then choosing not based out of fear. So, if if the fear is the only thing what I said before, if the fear is the only thing, then I would really urge to reconsider. But I'm always with these things, you know, I'm always thinking life is.

[00:50:39] So long that that I would encourage everyone, including myself still, to play around with it and not be so serious with it. I think that was that was what helped me actually achieve what I wanted to achieve when I let go of what it looks like and and I stopped being so serious about it. It's not so serious.

[00:50:58] You can take time out. You can come back. You can discover other things. You can do whatever you want. You can rediscover yourself so many times in your lifetime. and have many professions. It doesn't really it's not so it's not so bad. It's not serious.

[00:51:14] I love that and it fits well with your earlier reference around. Don't bother too much about what your CV is going to look like, what it's going to look like on paper, the pivots, the shifts, the 4 months into a new role and then starting another role. Going, you know, taking a break from corporate to, to discover what, you know, entrepreneurship looks like, what your very own business looks like.

[00:51:41] And we may even want to talk about that another time. We've not really touched on that today, but this is a really, powerful period of your life as well. And. Always leaving room to change your mind again, because our careers and our lives are not meant to be the straight line and this kind of, you know, no bumps in the road, and it's kind of polished LinkedIn.

[00:52:03] That's not what it is about. And I feel like that's a big, big shift that needs to happen and that everybody can take away. Don't bother too much about what it looks like on paper. and if you, if you feel like you're driven by the fear and the thought of what is this going to look like and what are others going to think about me, you're on the wrong path.

[00:52:24] That's a very, very clear sign and a cue that you're on the wrong path. So I love that we had this conversation today, Kaisa. so, so powerful. I love. You know, having conversations with you. I love working together on these things. And, thank you so much for taking the time and being so honest and vulnerable.

[00:52:41] Yeah. Thank you. It was a really lovely conversation as always. So, thank you.