Dallas Burnett: Hey, everybody.
We're talking to Tony Miltenberger today.
What an amazing guy.
He's an author, an executive coach, veteran podcaster, and a pastor who's
turned life's deepest pains into pathways for purpose and leadership.
He has some incredible stories from military deployments to building
resilient families while overcoming his own personal challenges.
He's a great new friend of mine.
You don't want to miss this incredible conversation.
Welcome the last 10%.
Your host, Dallas Burnett, into incredible conversations that
will inspire you to finish well.
And finish strong.
Finish strong.
Listen, as guests share their journeys in valuable advice on living in the last 10%.
you are a leader, a coach, a business owner, or someone looking to level
up, you are in the right place.
Remember, you can give 90% effort and make it a long way, but it's finding
out how to unlock the last 10%.
That makes all the difference in your life, your relationships, and your work.
Now here's Dallas.
Welcome, welcome, welcome.
I am Dallas Burnett, sitting in my 1905 Koch Brothers
barber chair in Thrive Studios.
But more importantly, today, we have a great guest.
Tony Miltenberger is the author of Wisdom in the Wound and Founder
of Follow to Lead Coaching.
He's the host of a podcast with whoa, way more episodes than
the last 10%, 400 episodes.
That's insane.
And he is a dedicated disciple maker who's traveled the world from army
deployments to church consultations, all while being married for over
20 years and having three kids.
He is here to share.
How embracing our wounds unlocks the last 10% of leadership potential through faith
and vulnerability and practical wisdom.
Welcome to the show, Tony.
Tony Miltenberger: Dallas, it is so good to be with you.
Let's go.
I'm fired up.
That introduction was straight fire, dude.
I love everything about it.
Let's, let's get into some trouble.
I'm, I'm here for all of.
Dallas Burnett: it's just like an imposter syndrome.
'cause I feel like, man, I feel like I should just turn over the mic and
thrive and say, Hey, you just, you just run this show because you've
got such a history and podcasting.
This is really fun and I enjoy being on your show as well.
So this was really, really, really a treat,
Tony Miltenberger: dude, when we met on, the Father Lead Podcast, I knew
instantly that we were kindred spirits.
I love your heart.
I love what you do for the market.
I love, all the things that you've got going through, through Thrive.
And I just can't wait to see, I can't wait to see where we go today.
It's gonna be fun.
Dallas Burnett: gonna be really fun.
All right, so I would love, we always start the show by giving the
listeners a taste of who the guest is.
So tell the listeners of who you are and how you got to
where you are and what you do.
Tony Miltenberger: Yeah, so I, did not wanna do anything that I'm
currently doing when I was a kid.
So it's not like I was like, oh, I wanna grow up and do these things.
Nope, that's not true.
In my case, I enlisted in the Army Reserves right outta high school, and,
uh, immediately knew I. I would've gone active duty, but I met this girl and
she said, I'm not leaving Dayton, Ohio.
And I was like, well, looks like I'm not leaving Dayton, Ohio either.
We have since been married for, it'll be 23 years this February, and she
still keeps me on the right path.
Her name is Karen.
We have three beautiful children, 19, 15 and 13.
Two boys and a princess.
The princess is the youngest, of course, when she was born, I.
I pulled the boys aside and I said, Hey, whatever you do, protect
your sister, protect your sister.
And then she got to be about eight years old and I pulled the boys back
aside and I was like, protect yourself.
Warrior princess, warrior princess.
So it's it's awesome.
Dallas Burnett: That's awesome.
That's so great.
So great.
Tony Miltenberger: You know, my greatest joy is being a dad to
those three and a husband to Karen.
And, I listened in the Army reserves.
I knew the Lord had kind of just put on my heart about some ministry stuff.
So I was a chaplain's assistant in the Army.
I got, I got back from basic training and really did some sales work
and kind of some nonprofit work.
And then eventually I ended up at the church and and got to
do some incredible church work.
I was a lead pastor for seven years.
Uh, the church that I was at was having a really hard time deciding
what it wanted to be when it grew up.
And so one day I got done preaching and I got out of the pulpit and I
got a very clear direction from God.
He said, you can stay or you can go.
It's both gonna be hard.
Dallas Burnett: Ooh.
Tony Miltenberger: And I was like, that, that's dumb.
Like
Dallas Burnett: don't like
Tony Miltenberger: where's the,
Dallas Burnett: is this?
Tony Miltenberger: yeah, where's the easy part?
Dallas Burnett: Yeah.
Tony Miltenberger: I would like to see, streets of gold here.
And I that's when I started to begin to lean into consulting.
And, I was sitting in front of a really inspirational Christian executive
who I've known for a long time.
And we were talking about what it means to run his business while also staying
true to his values and his faith.
And he looked at me and he said, Tony, why don't you charge me for this?
I said, I said, Mike, I've never charged anyone for this.
And he goes, I, I'm gonna tell you what, I paid my last
coach, my last executive coach.
And he, he shared with me the number.
And, I was like, well, that's, that's a lot more than what I, you know, like I, I
would just, my brain couldn't handle it.
He goes, and he said, he said, the work that you and I are doing together is
more valuable to me than that work.
Dallas Burnett: Hmm.
Tony Miltenberger: And so that day I went home and he was like, I think you
should give this a shot and I'll help you.
Dallas Burnett: That's gotta be pretty encouraging.
somebody, you're not even charging him, you're just out there with your time.
you're just helping a friend out, really in your mind.
You're just like, man, I'm sitting here, I'm talking to this guy.
I'm just helping, trying to help him walk and be a better version of himself.
And I'm just, and then all of a sudden he is like, Hey bro.
This is so good.
I just feel guilty if I don't pay yet.
So would you take a check?
And by the way, this is what I paid the last guy, and I'm
sitting there thinking, dang, yes.
Yeah.
I'm gonna help you do this, man.
That's awesome.
that's incredible.
Tony Miltenberger: We created a, I created a Google form and I asked
a bunch of questions about what you would do, what would you be open to
working with a Christian executive, and what would you want to get out of it?
Dallas Burnett: Hmm.
Tony Miltenberger: just wanted to send it out as a survey, and so I
sent it out to my network and then he sent it out to his network.
And so that week, 50 people, took the survey and, at the end of the
survey it said, would you like to, inquire more about Christian coaching?
And, two people said, four people said yes, and two of those
signed up as a client that week.
Dallas Burnett: Oh my gosh.
gosh.
Tony Miltenberger: and now I had the pucker factor was 10 because now
I actually had to figure out what I was gonna do with those people.
Dallas Burnett: They dunno what they just signed up for.
I dunno
Tony Miltenberger: I
Dallas Burnett: just signed up for.
Tony Miltenberger: dunno what they signed up for.
It's like, oh my gosh, I got, now I gotta coach these people.
And, but you know, like, um.
And the people who listen to this podcast know that the last 10% is the
boldness that it takes to actually go and do something like that.
It's the decision to step out in faith and say, okay, here I am.
and you know what, the, um, out of those two clients, one of those
clients still has me on retainer
Dallas Burnett: Oh wow.
Tony Miltenberger: two and a half years later now.
Dallas Burnett: Oh, that's great.
Tony Miltenberger: I.
Dallas Burnett: Very good.
Tony Miltenberger: I do not deserve the life I live, and I'm so thankful
for all the doors that have been opened to me by so many people, right?
That in, in coaching we call it an abundance mindset,
Dallas Burnett: Yeah.
Yeah.
Tony Miltenberger: and so like I just, you, you just can't
out give the goodness of.
The world and God and all the things that whatever it is that
you believe in, you can't out.
You can't out give it.
And so being abundance mindset, you know, one of my core beliefs is generosity.
And I just say all the time that I give my best stuff away for free.
Dallas Burnett: Mm. That's great.
I mean, I love that and I, I think that's so true and I think that
people underestimate the power.
I was actually sitting when this was early on, think, move, thrive.
I don't even know if I had, yeah, I don't even know if I had named it or not yet.
Well, no, I guess I had.
just named it because I'd written the Move, the first book,
and I was excited about Move.
it's just like this, we're gonna talk about your book in a second.
You just get, you're jacked about the book.
you gotta
Tony Miltenberger: Yeah.
Dallas Burnett: put that much blood, sweat, and tears into
something you get so pumped about, you wanna share it with the world.
And I was sitting across the table and I met these guys.
Somebody had said, you need to meet these guys.
they need to hear, you need to read your book.
So I had given 'em a copy of.
Sent 'em a copy of Move before I met 'em.
They were further down the path.
They had some big clients they were working with, they were working with
a lot of different Chick-fil-A's and I'm like, man, if I could get
in with these guys, you never know.
Who knows?
And so I sent him the book and this guy sitting across the table and his older
fellow, his partner goes to the bathroom and he comes, he looks at me, he goes.
read your book and I love it.
I was like, oh, that's, you've read a lot of books.
you train on this stuff.
I was like, I really appreciate you saying that means a lot.
It's kinda like a guy from inside the industry
Tony Miltenberger: Yeah.
Dallas Burnett: dude, this is legit.
And I was like, yes.
And then he looks at me and it was like total deflation of like any kind.
I was just like, unbelievable.
He looked at me, he said, but you realize, man.
He goes, you really believe this stuff.
I was like, yeah.
He said, you realize that people don't change.
I mean, you know, people don't change.
Like you're talking, your book is titled Move you're telling
people how to be better.
He goes, but you know people don't really change.
they don't.
And I'm sitting there and I just looked at him and I was dumbfounded.
I was literally, I could, I said, wait a minute, let me, and I had
to repeat back to him what he said.
He is yeah, they don't, they don't, people, most people don't change.
And I was like.
Why are you doing your job?
What, what?
What are you doing?
Like what?
are in the wrong business, man, you know?
Tony Miltenberger: I could not disagree more.
Dallas Burnett: Yeah, I mean, I, and so literally that's exactly what I said.
I said, I just choose, I just don't believe that I believe
something completely different.
And, but to, to that point, I think people in general sometimes
underestimate the value of coaching and
Tony Miltenberger: Mm-hmm.
Dallas Burnett: you've been doing it for a lot longer because of, you've
been in the ministry, you've been in the military and all these things.
You've seen a lot, had a lot of experiences on that.
But I'd love to, to share because a lot of our listeners, have
experienced our coaching system.
We have the app.
Some of our listeners have experienced our coaching system, and
they've implemented that in their organization just because they wanted
to drive coaching further down.
an organization, but I would love to hear you just riff on your experience with
coaching and some of the development, not specific, but any kind of thing
Tony Miltenberger: Sure.
Dallas Burnett: you could speak to about some of the wins that you've
seen as a coach in that space.
Tony Miltenberger: Yeah, so one of the things that I just really
believe is that information by itself doesn't really change much.
So the key is, and there's a formula, my, buddy Justin Gravitt who is with
the navigators, we talk about this often and we say that information plus
application equals transformation And I even, you know, information plus
application equals transformation.
So the problem is like I'm really good at consuming information, but
where I need help is with application.
Dallas Burnett: yes, yes.
Tony Miltenberger: So the transformation part is actually just a result
of the work of the two together.
So I know a lot of the stuff.
I have a coach myself, and I know a lot of the stuff that my coach is saying, but
what I really need is I need that coach to ask me about it when we meet two weeks or
a month from now, I need the application part, I need the accountability.
I need a little skin in the game.
Dallas Burnett: Hmm.
Tony Miltenberger: so that idea, and so like one of the things that I love to
do with clients that is transformational is values work, for example.
So I, I believe that if you can identify your values, it can change your life.
So my core four are faithful, grateful, generous, and movement right.
So I wanna be faithful, grateful, generous and movement and the
core four values by themself.
They sound really good and they're great and I can rattle 'em off, but here's
the work that most people don't see is I have a scorecard underneath them.
Dallas Burnett: Nice going Ben Franklin on us,
Tony Miltenberger: That's
right.
That's right.
And so I know that faithful in my life means I go to the gym.
Five times a week.
It means that I pray with my wife every night.
It means that I am actively participating in a worship community, right?
Grateful means that I call my parents at least once a week.
Generous is about my tithe, and my talent and I always have one
free coaching client, right?
Because that's my scorecard at the end of the year.
I want to be able to.
Evaluate without manipulating the answers in my own head if I'm really
living out the values that I say I want.
Right?
And so like, you know, one of the examples of my core four,
the last one is movement, right?
And in the work that I do and in my own life, it's movement.
And so every year I want to try one thing that I've never done before.
I just wanna try, I just wanna try it, right?
And so
Dallas Burnett: love it.
Tony Miltenberger: this year we, for the very first time in our
life, we're going to South Africa.
Dallas Burnett: Ooh, nice.
Tony Miltenberger: there with a, we're going there with a ministry.
We're gonna go and we're gonna go on safari while we're there, and we're gonna
just, we're gonna do those things, right?
So movement, like I, I,
Dallas Burnett: yeah.
Tony Miltenberger: now, I don't know any, I don't have any, there's
no outcomes associated with that.
There's no, but the reason I can say, yeah, I want to do that is because
it's associated with my values.
Dallas Burnett: Yeah.
Tony Miltenberger: Right, and so that's,
Dallas Burnett: yeah.
Tony Miltenberger: that kind of work.
I think the values themselves are good and most people I know can
come up with values, but assigning activities to the values is what equals
application, and then transformation.
Dallas Burnett: I would say this, that's a huge challenge, not only for you
personally, but you to extrapolate that to your team because a lot of people
walk in and I, I see this all the time.
walk in, you see the values on the wall, and they're like, we
believe you know this, and here's our mission statement and all.
And then you walk one office down.
You don't even make it to the end of the hall or the back closet.
you don't make it to the, you just walk one office down and
you walk in the door and you say.
Hey, you walk by those values every day.
Can you tell me all five values?
They're like, oh, well
here.
Yeah, now.
Now let's say they rattle off the values.
All right, good job.
You've passed them every day for the last 10 years.
That is at least that you get score.
That's a plus for noticing, but then when you say, okay, tell me how this
company demonstrates this value.
Exactly.
It's exactly what you just said.
It's exactly what is the scorecard under the value.
It's how do I know that this is not an aspirational value for you or for the
company or the organization, but it's an integrated value and the integrated value
is different than aspirational because you have the scorecard, you keep score and
what a lot of times the companies will do.
And organizations will do is they'll keep score on the financial scorecard,
the balance sheet, the income statement, a profit and loss statement
and stuff, but they, they don't have a really good scorecard on the
value scorecard and they wonder why.
culture is in kind of a malaise or there's no energy behind it,
or there's no really definition.
Or they may have a higher turnover or they don't really know, they don't
know how to pro promote someone.
How do I know if somebody's doing really well or not?
at the end of the day, you as a business you have to make money.
But on the flip side there, there's different ways to do that.
And, and so I, I can't agree with you more, and I think that as a leader.
Listening to you challenge us to, to create those scorecards personally,
also extrapolate extrapolates to, your team and organization.
So I love that.
Tony Miltenberger: One of the things that I say all the time on the podcast, and
it's just become a core belief, is that if you're not dedicated to your disciplines,
you'll be destroyed by your distractions.
Dallas Burnett: Hmm hmm.
Tony Miltenberger: And so he, so here's the truth, right?
As a leader, no one ever wakes up and says, man, today's the
day that I wanna ruin my life.
I just haven't met anybody that says that, right?
Today's the day that I wanna sink my business, right?
But here's what we do, is we inadvertently sacrifice the activities that got
us to the place in the first place,
Dallas Burnett: Yeah.
Tony Miltenberger: and here's the thing.
you can, you can take this to every part of your life.
You found that husband or wife.
What did you do to find her or him?
What are you doing to keep her or him?
Right?
There are disciplines.
No one ever wakes up and says, man, I really want to end my marriage today.
We stop dating, we stop doing the work that is required.
We stop communicating.
We stop being vulnerable, right?
And this is the same thing that happens in our parenting.
All of a sudden, if you think about parenting those younger years, you're
attentive, you're engaged, you're involved because you have to be.
And then they get to be about 12 or 13 and they're like, oh my gosh,
this human is really annoying me.
I'm not going to do those things.
And then we wonder why they don't come back home with their grandkids.
Dallas Burnett: Yes.
Yes.
Tony Miltenberger: It's the disciplines that got you there.
And if you don't know what your disciplines are, then you've actually
just let the world set your disciplines,
right?
Because the world will say, the world will say, you can come in
at eight and leave at five, right?
Is it Well, is that what you want?
Is that the life that you want?
I don't know.
I And I honestly, I don't care.
Like I don't care what your answer is to the question.
I just care that you take the time to answer it.
Dallas Burnett: Exactly.
Ah, man, I think that's, I think that's so awesome.
And I think that ultimately what you're trying to get to is really defining, it's
defining who you are and what you want.
And I think that's.
It's just really interesting because I think that most people move
through life and it kind of is acted on them and they don't act on it.
You know what I mean?
And I, and to your point, I would say this, even, you know, when you
gave a great example about your marriage, and I think that's so true.
It's that what it is, it is, it is layers when you think about
it, it's like the amount of.
effort in early on in the relationship.
can you say that you're actually doing that?
If you're in a, in the trenches with your spouse and you're like, oh
man, we're just grinding each other.
are you putting that same, in on that, on this side, and it's most,
most likely the answer is no.
but I think in an organization, this is where this gets tricky and it gets murky,
and many times that people overlook it is I, we had a guest on, probably a year ago.
And he said, we had this team, we
Tony Miltenberger: I.
Dallas Burnett: it was like a small team.
It was like five people and then it went to 20.
And it's oh man, we're all tight and we're doing all these things together and we
had this kind of core common values and we kinda all believed the same thing and
we're running the race together and this is like awesome, tight group of people.
And then we grew really fast and we had like several hundred people and we
were doing the same things the same way that we did it when we're 20 people.
And it wasn't working.
Tony Miltenberger: Right.
Dallas Burnett: and so what he was saying was, is that our connections, we
were connecting when we were 20 people, but it, I can't connect with 200, but
I wasn't connecting at all, right?
Because I was still trying to connect as if I was with 20 people.
And so the system changed.
or the, this environment changed, but the system didn't change with it.
So the connection is, like what you're saying,
Tony Miltenberger: Yep.
Dallas Burnett: of connection.
I wanna connect with people and I wanna make sure they connect with
each other and have clarity on what we believe in our mission vision.
But when the environment changed and went from 20 to 200, the systems
didn't change with it to maintain that connection and that clarity
and that those value structure.
So I think that's where it gets tricky as a leader is because not only are
you looking at yourself going, Hey.
What am I doing and am I putting out that and am I, am I clear on that,
on my discipline, but the way that I exercise that discipline could change?
Tony Miltenberger: Right.
And so one of the things I tell, uh, clients all the time, and I
love little sticky sayings, is that you have to set a date to evaluate,
You have to set a date to evaluate is this working or is this not working?
And sometimes I hear from business owners, they're like, I'm too busy.
And I'm like, if you're too busy to evaluate how you're
running your business, then your business is actually running you.
Dallas Burnett: Mm. Yeah, a hundred percent.
Tony Miltenberger: So you just gotta set a day to evaluate.
I shut the doors for a day.
I, there's nothing in the world that if you don't have a team of people that can
run the business without your presence, then there's then take a Saturday, take a
Sunday, whatever you, whatever it takes.
If you don't set a date to evaluate, then you, it's impossible to be
intentional in your response.
Right.
And, and.
One of the things that I just really believe on, and I talk a little
about in the book is this idea that, we can be emotionally reactive or
we can be intentionally responsive.
Dallas Burnett: Hmm.
Tony Miltenberger: And as a leader, if we're emotionally reactive, then what
we've done is we've allowed the feelings to become the primary driver of the
world that we are living in instead of.
Being intentional in our response, being value-based,
being mission and vision driven.
And that's the difference.
Dallas Burnett: Ah, nah.
That's really good.
I love it.
I love that.
And it's accountability.
It's just if you put that date down, when you set a date to evaluate,
you're just giving yourself that built in accountability that everybody
needs that is putting the, is putting your gym schedule on your calendar
Tony Miltenberger: right.
Dallas Burnett: that you don't overbook.
and just saying, this is what I'm gonna do.
I'm carving out time and having that accountability.
man, this has been great.
I want to talk, I want to get into your book a little bit 'cause this is,
you're doing your world tour right now.
the book launch.
And I know that there's some valuable information for leaders
that are living in the last 10%.
And I like the idea when we first connected about your
book because as leaders.
Sometimes we get into this leadership, you know, mindset where, you know, it,
we're supposed to have all the answers.
we're supposed to kind of be this perfect, display perfection to people around us.
and sometimes we start telling ourselves that's what we should
be and that's who we are.
And so it's like this, you know, defense mechanisms, all that stuff.
But I thought your book was a really good way to open up some conversation about.
Real life and leaders in the real world because, we all have battle scars.
And so I think moving through that and dealing with those is important.
So tell us a little bit about, just give us an intro to, to your book and
kind of what inspired you to write it.
Tony Miltenberger: Yeah.
the book is called Wisdom in the Wound, how Your Greatest Gift is on the other,
side of Your Wound, and this idea is.
It comes back to the a core belief that the art of conscious leadership.
How do you show up in a room?
How do you show up as a leader?
And one of the things that I began to realize as I did pastoral counseling
and executive coaching is that everyone in the world has got something, right?
And so we would call that, little t trauma, right?
You're wounding, it usually happens between the ages of four and 12.
It's not malicious in intent, but it drastically shapes the
way you look at the world.
It becomes, I would say, like a lens that in which you look at the world and
we all have it and it's unavoidable.
So if you've got kids, let me just go ahead and affirm, you've
already wounded your kids, so just
Dallas Burnett: Congratulations.
Tony Miltenberger: this is also probably what happened.
You probably tried to give them a different wound than what your
parents gave you, and so as a result, they look different.
Praise.
God, right?
Like, okay, so everybody's wounded.
If theologically, we would call it the epistemic consequence of sin, right?
The world is broken.
Everyone's willing to admit the world is broken.
We don't often talk about the consequences of that brokenness.
Your wound
is that consequence.
So what does that mean?
It means that oftentimes people bump up against our wounds.
It causes us to react emotionally.
So let me give you an example.
at four years old, my parents had unplanned twins.
Crazy.
they went from man to man defense to zone defense.
And I went from being the middle child or the youngest child to the middle,
Dallas Burnett: Ah.
Tony Miltenberger: so nobody's fault.
Nobody did it to me.
I love my brother and sisters.
They're incredible humans.
Would not trade them for the world.
And also from four years old on my wound is I felt like I didn't matter.
Now, I've talked to my parents about this.
I've talked to my, nobody did this to me on purpose, but it became
the lens at which I saw the world.
And so.
Dallas Burnett: Hmm.
Tony Miltenberger: At four years old, I go to the middle child syndrome and
I'm in full effect, and my parents are managing this new life with four kids.
They end up getting divorced, they end up getting remarried, and somewhere
along the way, the narrative in my head was, I don't really matter now.
Play that out.
I eventually go to high school, join the army, do all this kind of
work, and I'm constantly looking for roles where I can show up in
people's lives so that I matter.
And so, so here's the deal, right?
On the other side of that wound.
Is my greatest gift because we serve a redemptive God and because psychologically
we always want to take account for the pain and trauma that we've experienced.
And so what am I really good at?
I'm really good at seeing people.
Dallas Burnett: Yeah.
Right,
Tony Miltenberger: And so your gift is naturally on the other side of your wound.
and here's the deal.
There's this tool that I talk about in the book called The Emotional Intensity Scale.
On a scale from one to 10, your emotional intensity, you, we
typically, most people typically run in that two to four range, right?
Emotional intensity, two to four.
On a normal day, your two to four may look different than my two to four, but
we all have a normal kind of homeostasis.
When somebody bumps up against our wound, we have an intensity spike.
And so here's the tool.
If on a scale from one to 10, your emotional intensity spikes above
a six, it's always more about you than it is the other person,
Dallas Burnett: Ah, interesting.
Tony Miltenberger: right?
So we're, if we're a hundred percent responsible for how we think, feel,
and act, meaning that you have, you have cognitive control over your
feelings, thoughts, and actions, then that means it's impossible.
For someone to actually make us mad, but instead we have to choose to be mad.
And in most cases, we have to own the fact that we're doing it on purpose.
Dallas Burnett: Yeah.
Tony Miltenberger: And that's just a lot, right?
It's a lot.
But think about it like this.
If I'm driving down I 75, I live in Ohio, it's the worst highway in the
world, it, and somebody cuts me off.
They cut me off.
They didn't see me.
And then I immediately lay on my horn and I tell them that they're number one.
And I use all the words that I learned in the Army to convey
my displeasure for this moment.
We've all been there right now.
Here's the question I already shared with you, my values.
Does any of that activity actually aligned with my values?
No.
Dallas Burnett: I would say no.
Tony Miltenberger: No, there's nothing faithful, grateful,
generous, or movement about that.
Instead, I'm having an emotional reaction because my emotional
intensity has been spiked.
Now, what is this do I really think in my heart of hearts, did that guy in
front of me did that to me on purpose?
Nope.
No.
He doesn't even know who I am.
But what happened in that moment is he bumped up against my wound,
which is I want to be seen.
what, when he doesn't care about my safety, I don't feel very seen, do I?
Dallas Burnett: Right, right.
Tony Miltenberger: And so now the reality is, is as a, conscious
leader, I can say This situation isn't really about this car in front of me.
It's about my wound that just lives inside of me.
And it's real.
Dallas Burnett: Yeah, it's almost like it just gets aggravated in that,
it's it just, somebody pricks it,
Tony Miltenberger: Yeah,
Dallas Burnett: like,
Tony Miltenberger: a hundred percent.
Dallas Burnett: go.
It's just a little bit more sensitive than the rest of the rest of you,
Tony Miltenberger: And we all have it right now.
Now here's what's crazy, is that sensitivity that can go for
good activities as much as it can go for negative activities.
So here's another example.
I've got two sons that both play football.
They're both linebackers.
Let's say one of 'em intercepts the ball, takes it back to the house.
Full blown.
Pick six.
Love it, right?
Dallas Burnett: Yeah.
Tony Miltenberger: it.
And then I go full blown Midwestern dad on the sideline.
Like I'm chest bumping pit ball.
I'm high five, and let's go.
Right?
Like, I'm going nuts.
Dallas Burnett: Yeah, yeah.
Tony Miltenberger: in that moment.
Is that more about me or is it about them?
It's about me.
Dallas Burnett: Yeah.
Being seen.
Tony Miltenberger: Be in seen, 'cause I did that on that field.
Those are my kids,
Dallas Burnett: my
Tony Miltenberger: my
boy, right?
Dallas Burnett: you go.
Tony Miltenberger: and so the deal is that as leaders, we have to know that when
our emotions are above a six, the only thing that we can do that will be healthy
is feel our feelings so that we can get below a six to make a good decision.
So feelings at their core, their decision points, they're not decision makers.
And so the greatest leaders in the world have this kind of thing figured out.
They've realized that life is not the absence of your wound, like
you're not gonna make it go away, Dallas, it's gonna be there forever.
But instead they have an intimacy with their wound so that when
somebody bumps up against it.
It doesn't scare them.
Dallas Burnett: I like how you've painted that picture because
it's really defining what a, a, like a part of self-awareness is.
Like you're pulling out, I love how you're tying the wound
to a leader's self-awareness.
Because that's, that is an incredible, you know, EQ and if you can recognize it in
others and yourself and self-awareness and what you're describing is just a profound
way of understanding yourself better so that you have the ability to respond,
like what you were saying earlier, you have the ability to intentionally
respond versus emotionally react.
And if your emotions.
Are not decision points, but drivers.
Right.
Tony Miltenberger: Right.
Dallas Burnett: your decision like, gonna, I'm going.
'cause you're always asking your question.
I guess if you're a competent leader, you're asking, when you start feeling
the, when you get the feels good, bad, or ugly, if it's coming up, you feel your
neck getting red and you're like, you feel the beast coming out, then the question
is, are you intentionally responding in a way that is appropriate to the situation
or is your emotions driving you to do something that you typically wouldn't do?
Like you were saying, the example in the car when you're driving.
I just think that's really important for leaders because it's, this is
not a. An employee or a team member problem versus a leader problem.
This is a human
Tony Miltenberger: Right.
Dallas Burnett: we all deal with this, so it doesn't matter, even if you're an
introvert or an extrovert, if you got a lot of energy or if you got a little
energy, it's like, it doesn't matter.
Everybody's been wounded and we all have these things, and I just think
about it in my career, I saw an employee when I was in a part of a startup.
I just, when you're saying these things, I'm just like, I'm playing this over my
you know, because I've had these conversations with my wife and one of the
things I did early on in my leadership career, I was running this venture funded
startup and I was at the table with the founder and we're sitting across
the board table and we've got all the finance answers, people around us, and
they made this, he made this comment about, we need to let this guy go.
We just had hired this guy and I felt like the, he was getting.
It wasn't just that he made that comment, it was that he was dismissive of the
person and their value as an individual.
Like he was just like he, he really
Tony Miltenberger: Hmm.
Dallas Burnett: not, and at that point I just felt like the person was so treated
so unfairly like you, it was just like.
And I just was like, I'm gonna defend the person who can't defend themselves.
And I wa I just went into we are not, and I mean it, and I went
from zero to 60 and way too fast.
And had I had more awareness at that point in time.
I would've handled that differently.
I would've said probably very similar things, but the response would've
been less driven by that emotion, and I could have probably articulated it
better and not like the finances were looking at whoa, you know, these guys,
these guys, I don't know, And so.
Uh, this, then you're in damage control mode.
So I'm just looking at that and that's a real live example
of just my personal story.
Like I would, going back, I may have said the same thing.
I believe the same thing he was not being treated fairly.
He was, he should not have been terminated, all that.
But the way I handled that was way more emotionally driven
than intentionally driven.
You know what I
Tony Miltenberger: Yeah, and, and part of the result of that is that people
can't hear your message when you're not clear enough with yourself to deliver it.
Dallas Burnett: Exactly right.
Tony Miltenberger: And so this matters, this matters in your marriage.
This matters in your parenting, this matters in your workplace.
This matters in all the places where you should, anywhere that
there are people this matters.
'cause all of life is just a bunch of broken people bumping
up against each other's wounds.
And so, you know, one of the things that I kind of assert in the book is
that grace is curiosity and empathy.
Dallas Burnett: Hmm.
Tony Miltenberger: you can have curiosity and empathy, then you can
be graceful in the approach that you want to take in working with others.
Right?
I was like, man, I wonder what's going on in Dallas's day that
caused him to react like that.
Or, I can't even imagine the pressure that Dallas has, but oftentimes because
my emotional response is so high, I can't have curiosity or empathy.
Instead, I just have this reactiveness, it's like, rah,
the whole world's out to get me.
like it's man, that's, and the problem is that emotional reaction
will oftentimes just paint an in an inaccurate picture of reality.
So it's, it may feel that way that the whole world's out to get you, but the
truth is no one's even thinking about you.
it's just it's like, how, and so as a leader, I wanna make an informed decision.
John Tyson would say, spirit led data informed.
I wanna make an informed decision.
That is full of data points that will move the organization forward to
what I feel like we're called to do.
And in order to do that, I have to take the wounded part of me and I have to
be so familiar with it that it doesn't scare me if I have to lead us down a path
where something might bump up against it.
Dallas Burnett: You know, you dropped the one line.
You were right man, you've got some great one-liners.
The grace is curiosity and empathy.
is a, when you think, I've never heard it put like that.
I've never heard Grace described like that.
And what's fascinating is when you think about curiosity, I'm curious
about something, I'm not judging it.
Tony Miltenberger: Right.
Dallas Burnett: I'm also really not afraid of it.
I'm really like, interested, okay, let me find out more about this.
I want to know more.
I'm very cur, I'm intrigued.
I'm actually.
Wow.
And when you think about when you approach someone as a leader, whether it's a
team member, whether it's a coworker or whether it's your, whether it's your boss
when they disagree with you or when they do something that doesn't make sense.
Then if you're responding emotionally and you allow that to be, it really takes,
you're either judging them or you're afraid, or some other, many other things.
But those are two big things that you're gonna have to deal with.
But if you can move past that, and especially like we're talking about in
the wound and evaluate that and say, oh, if I'm emotional response is a little
too high, if I step back from a second, it does, you'll win so many more times.
If you can just look at that and say, oh.
I'm fascinated to why you think like that.
why do you think like that?
Why did you make that decision?
Why are we doing that?
But if you can do that in a non-judgmental way, it's not
gonna come across as judgmental.
Tony Miltenberger: Yeah,
Dallas Burnett: the problem is you might ask the same question,
why do you think like that?
Why in the world would you think like that versus.
Oh man, I'm so interested.
Tell me more.
Tell me more
Tony Miltenberger: tell me more about that.
yes.
Dallas Burnett: this is a total different, but that takes, that is like a walking,
it is, it's a, that, that takes grace, to extend that curiosity to someone.
So that's a, I love that.
I love that idea.
That's really good.
let's talk about, what you feel like has been, your biggest message in this, if
you were to give the biggest message from this to a leader, let's say the leader
is leading an organization or a team.
If you were to say, I'm gonna boil this thing down.
If you were gonna know this book down to one
Tony Miltenberger: Mm-hmm.
Dallas Burnett: what would you do to say, to communicate to that leader?
Tony Miltenberger: I would say this is the greatest leaders
in the world know who they are.
On the positive and the wounded sides, and they don't have
judgment around either side.
They just acknowledge that both sides exist.
And so there's this tendency, there's this tendency with a lot of us, I
know, with me at least, to judge my feelings as if I shouldn't have them.
Man, Tony, you shouldn't tell people that you get mad at cars
on the 75 or you shouldn't.
Like I, I know that one of the things I struggle with is ego.
Like I've never not struggled with it.
it's just part of how I'm wired, right?
Like I, I want to be seen.
and so it's a constant battle and I'm, Dallas, you've done this multiple times.
This whole process of trying to talk to people about your book is basically
Dallas Burnett: yeah.
Tony Miltenberger: It's basically Hey, will you be my friend so
that I can talk about my book?
it's so dumb and good and but so here's the thing, right?
All of that is true.
but my judgment around those feelings doesn't actually serve what I
feel like I'm being called to do.
So like I do feel like, when people say no, like they don't know what they're
doing or they hurt my feelings, and I do want this to be wildly successful,
and I'm not a hundred percent sure what that means, and I'm talking to a lot
of people in my world about it, but I.
For me to put judgment around any of those feelings doesn't
actually serve the greater good.
Instead, I just want to just sit in it and just acknowledge that I am wounded,
people do bump up, up against my wounds.
I do have big feelings, and all of that makes me exactly who I am,
and
Dallas Burnett: that.
Tony Miltenberger: thankful for that.
Dallas Burnett: I love that.
love that.
And I think that I wanna take it one step further in the sense that
I would love for you to talk about, so you just summarized those, that
core principle and idea that you're communicating with the book to leaders.
I would love to take it one step further because there's a lot of leaders who are.
Wanting to do well and are coaching some of their team members.
They're developing them, and some of that's direct and some of it's indirect.
But if I'm a leader and I'm sitting down with a team member.
what recommendations would you have?
'cause you're engaging with executives in
Tony Miltenberger: Yeah.
Dallas Burnett: been in ministry for a long time, you've been in the Army,
and you've engaged, whether that's in direct coaching, indirect or counseling.
you've been a part of a lot of people's lives and seen them develop and change.
and so what advice would you give to a leader if they wanted to help walk?
With someone and help them develop greater level of awareness about their wounding,
how would you recommend they do that?
Tony Miltenberger: This is probably not surprising to anyone who's done
any reading about leadership stuff, but the truth is you have to, walk
alongside them in the journey.
And so that means you have to go first.
Right there, there are a lot of situations in leadership where you should go last
and, I love that book Leaders Eat Last.
but it's also true that when it comes to vulnerability based trust, which is
essentially what we're talking about here, that leaders have to start first.
And so imagine what would happen if you walked into a room of direct reports
and said, Hey guys, I have been on a journey of realizing some things about me.
I wanted to come in and apologize for some emotional reactions I
had recently about this event.
And what I've realized happened is, early on in my life, I was wounded.
Like all we all were and make a joke and then, and then tell them like, guys, one
of the things that I really struggle with is being seen, and sometimes it shows up
in the workplace like this and like this.
and then if you're really brave, ask him this question.
How was it like to be on the other side of me in that moment?
Dallas Burnett: Oh, that's good.
That's good.
Tony Miltenberger: and then, and then everyone in the
room will be like, our boss.
if it's an uncommon behavior, our boss is off the wagon, right?
Like it.
but if it's common behavior, if it's a normal part of your culture
already, then you can invite them.
Hey guys, I wanna invite you into this journey with me.
I want us to be a team that can share the hard parts.
I would love for you to take a look at what your wounding might be and.
Let's take a look at what your gifting is and let's take a look at what
emotionally spikes you and let's just have some dialogue around it, not to fix
it 'cause we're not gonna fix it, but so that we can all hold it together and
understand that like we see each other.
I.
Dallas Burnett: Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that's really good.
I think that.
It's so uncommon and so uncomfortable for leaders because
I think some leaders, again.
Without that, if they're insecure anything, then exposing that wound
just seems like I'm sta it's the, I'm standing in front of the people.
The emperor has no
Tony Miltenberger: Sure.
Dallas Burnett: oh my gosh.
you feel that.
and you also, I think as a leader can feel, a bit of fear.
if I put this out there, is anybody gonna turn around and use this?
against me.
So it takes a lot, I love the word you said, bravery.
I think it takes a lot of bravery and courage to have that
vulnerability to open that up.
But again, to, to your point, if you can do that and open it up with your team,
you're giving them permission to say that and they can't really say anything to.
It takes away their ability to say anything to you when you ask them,
Hey, so for you, you know, then you've already, they can't say, well, I
mean, I'm not telling you that well.
I mean, I, I did, I told you I'm not asking to do anything
that I haven't done first.
I'm not asking you to go anywhere where I haven't gone.
And so I think that's really good advice and
Tony Miltenberger: and if you really wanna back this up a little bit too,
like if your culture doesn't promote this, months before you actually do
the exercise, people are gonna have a hard time making that transition.
If they don't feel safe in the culture, then they're not gonna
feel safe to share emotionally.
So if your culture, is integrity and grit.
Vulnerability.
You know what, depending on what your culture is, you better figure out a way
to integrate that into the environment long before you ever ask them to share
the deepest parts of who they are.
Dallas Burnett: Exactly.
Yeah,
Tony Miltenberger: Because if you don't create a safe environment,
nobody's gonna share anything.
They're all gonna give you lip service.
Now, here's the other thing.
If you do create like this idea of the culture and you begin to
list out the values, then what will happen is the people that
don't fit will self-select out.
Dallas Burnett: Yes.
Absolutely.
Tony Miltenberger: and then they've just done a lot of your hard work for you.
Dallas Burnett: Exactly.
They're gonna get uncomfortable.
Tony Miltenberger: it's a gift.
I, it's a gift.
I, there are companies that I work with all the time that it's like,
hey, I'll come in and they'll be, I'll be like, Hey, you want me
to take you guys down this path?
And they'll like, yes.
And we'll start working down the path.
And the next thing somebody's gone.
I. And they just don't want to do it.
They just don't wanna do the work.
And that's fine.
I'm not making anybody do the work.
But you just need to know, if we're building a culture that's based around
vulnerability based trust, and somebody doesn't wanna be vulnerable, they're
either gonna be leave, they're either gonna leave or they're gonna be a
cancer, and either way they gotta go.
Dallas Burnett: That's so true and I'll tell say this, there was a company we
worked with, we have worked with for years and they, we do their leadership summits.
And the interesting thing was one year they invited who I actually knew
'cause I had met him in one of their offices and, Was totally a toxic guy.
Like, I mean, I would've recommended they, that company fire him years earlier.
Like I, I just, he was a drag as big as the word drag could be.
He was drag and and he was just so not in alignment with the culture.
Well then they invite him to the leadership summit.
I'm like, guys, are you sure you wanna do this?
Because this guy has not bought in.
And you're bringing him into the kind of the inner circle of the
top 60 leaders in your company.
Are you sure you wanna Yeah.
No, he's gonna, he's gonna really, that's gonna help him out, da da da.
Well, um, he is done and the day after the leadership summit,
he turned in his resignation.
Tony Miltenberger: Yeah.
Yep.
Dallas Burnett: said, look, if this is what you guys are about,
like I've been hearing it for a long time, but like he didn't, I
don't think he really believed it.
And then he got in the room with everybody and he saw how bought in and in alignment
everybody was and what they believed and how they were gonna move on that the next
and was like.
I don't want it.
Tony Miltenberger: Wow.
Dallas Burnett: was like, if we could do that, there's about three
or four other people you need to bring them next year because we'll
get them off the boat, man, let's go.
But to your point, it's like when you create a culture that's really strong and
very much in alignment, then anybody that doesn't fit that mold, or they're just
gonna, it's self eject because they can't
Tony Miltenberger: Yeah.
Dallas Burnett: it
Tony Miltenberger: One, one of the stickies that I, I use
all the time is that common language creates common movement.
Dallas Burnett: Yeah.
Tony Miltenberger: So we've gotta create a common language
around the EQ parts of the work.
No matter if you're selling widgets or you are a coach working with
Fortune 500 companies, right?
create a common language.
that's one of the things that, you know, EOS or scaling up, they all
bring a language with them that then everybody begins to u begins to use.
That changes kind of the culture of the organization.
and you've gotta decide, are there extra parts to this that you wanna make sure
that you incorporate in order to make sure that you're thriving as a company?
Dallas Burnett: I love it.
I love it.
All right.
we need to, we need to know, I want to, we, this has been the
best conversation by the way.
I just, this is, man, I
Tony Miltenberger: Dude, you're,
Dallas Burnett: I love it.
Tony Miltenberger: you
Dallas Burnett: I love it.
Tony Miltenberger: good at
Dallas Burnett: the book,
Tony Miltenberger: good.
Dallas Burnett: Nah, this has been great.
you're even better, dude.
You're like 400 episodes in.
Are you kidding me?
Tony Miltenberger: no better or worse.
I just got a lot more reps. That's it.
I've just got a lot more reps.
Dallas Burnett: I think it's awesome and I enjoy being on your show too, and I,
so I want to tell people how they can find more information out about Tony
and his book, and his show and all that.
How do people connect with you?
Tony Miltenberger: I often joke that I'm embarrassingly easy to find and,
you could go to Wisdom in the wound book.com and there's pre-orders there.
There's, we're giving away the introduction and the forward right
now, if you sign up for email list, there's also information about the
Follow Lead podcast and the follow lead.
Coaching.
And so I'm also really been humbled and honored over the last couple of months
to do some corporate speaking events.
So if your organization is looking for someone who can come in and deliver, I,
I give a keynote called Burn the Ships.
And it's all about looking in the mirror and not going back.
And I love the opportunity to give it so wisdom in the wound book.com.
I'm on Instagram at tw melt, T-W-M-I-L-T.
Dallas Burnett: All right.
All right, we'll put those in the show notes.
So everybody, if you're driving, don't worry.
You can check it out, when you get where you're going.
And one last question we always ask our guest is, who would you like
to hear as a guest on the last 10%?
Tony Miltenberger: Listen, I have been reading, main Street
Millionaire by Cody Sanchez,
Dallas Burnett: nice.
Tony Miltenberger: fiercely and her contrarian community that she's building.
some of that stuff is just so powerful.
I so listen, I think Cody's the real deal, so you should try to get her 'cause she's
not responding to any of my messages.
Dallas Burnett: She is definitely a country and she's definitely a force.
And man, I see your stuff all over LinkedIn and so yeah, that is awesome.
we'll definitely have to reach out to Cody and if we do get in touch drive, I'll
say, listen, why are you talking to me?
You need to be talking to Tony.
that's what we're gonna tell
Tony Miltenberger: We could, Hey, look, we could record it
with her together if you want.
you get her, you'll get her.
We'll do a double show or release it on both feeds.
Dallas Burnett: Okay.
Tony Miltenberger: we can go back and forth and ask questions.
it would be a fun or even better.
Even better if you get Cody to come.
We should just do a live event and bring both of our communities together.
Dallas Burnett: I love it.
ooh.
A live event.
You know what?
might be onto something
Tony Miltenberger: Think, move, thrive Conference.
Dallas Burnett: Yeah.
Tony Miltenberger: By follow the lead, let's go.
Dallas Burnett: you heard it.
You heard it here first on the last 10%.
There's some ideation going on.
It could be something dangerous.
man, Tony, thank you so much for being on the show today.
I just appreciate you and your wisdom.
I think the leaders have had.
a lot of lessons to that.
They can, there's so many takeaways.
I can't even, I got my notes here.
I've been scribbling down that you've been talking.
It's just so good.
So good.
So thank you for being on the show, sharing all your
wisdom with our listeners.
Good luck on the book launch and book tour, and we just wish you the best and
we'll have to have you back on when we get Cody on for, for a live session.
Tony Miltenberger: I love it.
Thanks brother.
I appreciate you and your community so much.
I can't wait to see what the future holds.
Dallas Burnett: Sounds good.