1 00:00:02,340 --> 00:00:05,880 Ian Altman: Ian, welcome to the same side selling podcast. I am 2 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:13,020 your host. Ian Altman, they say you always want to surround 3 00:00:13,020 --> 00:00:15,480 yourself with people who are smarter than you, and today is 4 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:20,180 no exception. I'm joined by my good friend, Tamsen Webster and 5 00:00:20,180 --> 00:00:23,600 tampson, for those of you who are long time listeners, 6 00:00:24,140 --> 00:00:28,760 probably remember tam from her book, find your red thread and 7 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:32,360 tampson, I apologize if it was finding or fine, but I No, yeah, 8 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:32,900 exactly 9 00:00:32,900 --> 00:00:35,120 Tamsen Webster: right. You That was exactly the title of it. So 10 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:37,940 Ian Altman: what are the odds? So I get it right. Go figure. Go 11 00:00:37,940 --> 00:00:43,600 figure. And I love the notion of the latest book, which is 12 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:47,200 titled, say what they can't unhear. Because if you think 13 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:50,020 about it, those of us in sales are always trying to figure out, 14 00:00:50,020 --> 00:00:52,720 what can I say that's going to stick with my client? What are 15 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:57,220 the messages that I'm going to convey that really stick and 16 00:00:57,220 --> 00:00:59,920 make it so people remember them and they'll actually say it back 17 00:00:59,920 --> 00:01:04,440 to us the way we said it, if not better. So with that, let me 18 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:08,820 welcome you aboard everybody. I want you to meet tam Webster. 19 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:15,240 Hey, Tamsen, hey, hey, good to see you. Thanks for joining. So 20 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:19,740 what was the what was the driving force behind this book? 21 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:23,780 I know that's a boring question, but, but I wanted to know 22 00:01:23,780 --> 00:01:26,840 because I was like, Wow, I love the topic of this, but what was 23 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:29,300 it that made you say, Okay, here's, here's what's needed out 24 00:01:29,300 --> 00:01:30,380 in the marketplace. 25 00:01:31,159 --> 00:01:34,039 Tamsen Webster: So really, the driving force behind this was my 26 00:01:34,039 --> 00:01:37,939 watching our mutual friend Phil M Jones wrap yet another 27 00:01:37,939 --> 00:01:42,759 audience around his British accented finger. And what I 28 00:01:42,759 --> 00:01:46,479 realized, because I've seen Phil talk about sales and exactly 29 00:01:46,479 --> 00:01:50,679 what to say and all of that, and I know he and you are aligned in 30 00:01:50,679 --> 00:01:54,279 a lot of ways. I was watching him talk about his various 31 00:01:54,279 --> 00:01:56,619 pieces and philosophies, and I said, you know, so much of what 32 00:01:56,619 --> 00:02:00,539 he talks about and what you talk about is so good about in 33 00:02:00,539 --> 00:02:05,519 getting an immediate action, getting action and a yes right 34 00:02:05,519 --> 00:02:09,959 away, and what I'm not hearing, at least in what he is saying, 35 00:02:09,959 --> 00:02:12,659 and as I was thinking about what else is in the marketplace, I 36 00:02:12,659 --> 00:02:17,279 don't see as much and hear as much about how to keep that yes 37 00:02:17,699 --> 00:02:21,859 as a yes. How do you keep someone how do you get a yes 38 00:02:21,859 --> 00:02:25,219 that doesn't back away and become part of buyer's remorse? 39 00:02:25,219 --> 00:02:28,279 How do you get a yes that doesn't turn into a ghost? How 40 00:02:28,279 --> 00:02:33,019 do you get a yes that doesn't turn into well, you know, the 41 00:02:33,079 --> 00:02:36,379 you know, procurement said no, right? So, how is it? What are 42 00:02:36,379 --> 00:02:41,259 those concepts, in a very similar way that Phil presents 43 00:02:41,379 --> 00:02:46,419 accessible, memorable, quick and to the point do I know from all 44 00:02:46,419 --> 00:02:49,659 the time that I've spent doing long term change might help 45 00:02:49,659 --> 00:02:52,659 shift that? So it really was that moment. I'm like, huh, he's 46 00:02:52,659 --> 00:02:56,259 got these concepts. I'm like, I do too. So I wrote them and 47 00:02:56,259 --> 00:03:00,479 created nine persuasion Proverbs, as I like to call them 48 00:03:00,479 --> 00:03:04,859 to really focus on not just action, but sustained action, 49 00:03:04,859 --> 00:03:07,079 keeping the yes, a yes, yeah. I 50 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:09,660 Ian Altman: mean, a lot of what I look at is, in many, in many 51 00:03:09,660 --> 00:03:12,480 respects, you're often almost like the messaging whisperer, 52 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:16,740 like, Okay, what do we come up with that that someone hears and 53 00:03:16,740 --> 00:03:20,400 they go, Oh, that's really good. That sticks. And I love that. 54 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:22,400 Everything you write about, everything you speak about, 55 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:25,160 there's always a structure behind it. So I'm not surprised 56 00:03:25,340 --> 00:03:30,560 that there are nine proverbs that you share. So be before we 57 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:33,800 dive into those, sure, what are some of the mistakes that people 58 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:36,200 make when they're trying to accomplish this? So So 59 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:39,860 presumably, and you'll correct me if I'm wrong, but the goal 60 00:03:39,860 --> 00:03:44,680 is, how do I how do I say stuff that's sticky that doesn't then 61 00:03:44,740 --> 00:03:48,820 erode and get diluted over time, and people kind of forget and 62 00:03:48,820 --> 00:03:49,900 don't care anymore? 63 00:03:50,500 --> 00:03:53,800 Tamsen Webster: Yes, yep. So I think one of the main big 64 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:58,960 mistakes is that we go straight to the what we think will be 65 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:03,840 remarkable or sticky or different, without making sure 66 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:08,040 that those words that are wrapped around that idea, that 67 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:10,440 the idea underneath it is something that people would also 68 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:14,400 say yes to. So one of the things I often say to my clients is 69 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:18,480 that remarkable may get attention, but relevance keeps 70 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:22,400 it and there's a lot of things that we do sometimes to get 71 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:26,180 attention to be different, to be a challenger, to be 72 00:04:26,180 --> 00:04:29,240 controversial with somebody, particularly that we're meeting 73 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:32,000 with, perhaps for the first time, so that we can stand out. 74 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:36,620 That while they may get that attention to start with, in many 75 00:04:36,620 --> 00:04:40,240 ways, it works against long term change to begin with. So I would 76 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:44,200 say that in addition to focusing on, how do we be different, how 77 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:47,920 do we stand out? The other big mistake is focusing on quick 78 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:52,720 action rather than long term, sustained changes in thinking or 79 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:56,260 behavior, and that oftentimes is a different set of principles. 80 00:04:56,740 --> 00:04:58,840 Ian Altman: Yeah, and it's interesting, because I think 81 00:04:58,840 --> 00:05:01,740 it's one of the things that I. I say, I talk about a lot also, 82 00:05:01,740 --> 00:05:05,280 which is very often somebody will say, Oh, here's this thing 83 00:05:05,280 --> 00:05:08,820 we want to solve. And old school sales would jump into the 84 00:05:08,820 --> 00:05:11,940 solution right away, instead of, well, help me understand why 85 00:05:11,940 --> 00:05:14,400 that's important, and what is it you're really trying to solve, 86 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:16,920 and what have you done to try and solve this? And who else is 87 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:20,100 most directly impacted? We unpack all this other stuff that 88 00:05:20,100 --> 00:05:23,720 now makes it so that we can come back to them and say, okay, in 89 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:27,560 order to solve that underlying issue and get this outcome, this 90 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:31,400 is what would suggest. But if we didn't do that, if we just jump 91 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:35,240 to the solution, we kind of get this watered down problem that 92 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:37,940 they have that doesn't have a lot of relevance, 93 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:41,500 Tamsen Webster: absolutely and and we're also not giving them 94 00:05:41,500 --> 00:05:45,040 all the pieces of the story that's going to happen in their 95 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:47,620 heads, or that actually has to happen in their heads in order 96 00:05:47,620 --> 00:05:50,440 for it to make sense. I'm sure we talked about this a little 97 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:53,500 bit the last time, and it's the second proverb in the book. But 98 00:05:53,740 --> 00:05:57,160 every decision has a story behind it, right? A story that 99 00:05:57,160 --> 00:06:00,040 somebody tells themselves. And one of the ways that I talk 100 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:04,560 about it in this new book is that every action somebody takes 101 00:06:04,740 --> 00:06:09,000 ends an internal argument in their heads about why that 102 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:12,480 action does or doesn't. Make sense, right? And so if somebody 103 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:15,720 chooses you or doesn't choose you, it's because they are 104 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:20,100 telling themselves a story about why they should or shouldn't. 105 00:06:20,220 --> 00:06:25,340 And so the whole idea is, if we only give people the problem and 106 00:06:25,340 --> 00:06:28,040 the solution, which is just the beginning and the end of the 107 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:33,080 story, like that would be a very unsatisfying story. You know, if 108 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:35,900 it were a once upon a time story, I often use the Star Wars 109 00:06:35,900 --> 00:06:38,420 example of like, well, once upon a time, there's a Brady kid 110 00:06:38,420 --> 00:06:41,380 named Luke, and he saved the galaxy. And you're like, Okay, 111 00:06:41,500 --> 00:06:46,720 fine, there's no conflict. There's no why would I listen? 112 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:49,540 You know? And, and the equivalent is basically saying, 113 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:53,560 oh, that's your problem. Here's our solution. And then when we 114 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:56,380 when people really want that deeper connection, and the 115 00:06:56,380 --> 00:07:00,360 connection in between is, why is that the solution? Then, 116 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:03,120 oftentimes what we end up doing then is like, benefit bombing 117 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:05,700 them and say, well, you're going to get this and you're going to 118 00:07:05,700 --> 00:07:08,220 get this and you're going to get this and you're going to get 119 00:07:08,220 --> 00:07:10,680 this, and that you still haven't actually explained why your 120 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:15,360 solution would legitimately solve their problem. So they 121 00:07:15,540 --> 00:07:18,120 you're not giving them all the pieces they need to tell that 122 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:21,560 story to themselves, which is absolutely why they can't tell 123 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:22,760 it to somebody else either. 124 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:25,100 Ian Altman: Yeah, and it's interesting, because I think in 125 00:07:25,100 --> 00:07:28,520 my research, a lot of what we find is that it's not that the 126 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:32,480 person hasn't tapped into at some level the problem. Oh, 127 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:36,200 absolutely right. They don't yet believe that it's a really 128 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:38,900 serious problem. So like, wow, this thing kind of happened, and 129 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:42,400 why? You know, we should probably fix that so, so let's 130 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:45,760 go, let's go search for a solution. But it's when the 131 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:48,820 person communicating with them asked the question about, so how 132 00:07:48,820 --> 00:07:51,760 long has it been going on? What happens if you can't solve this? 133 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:55,720 What have you tried so far? And what I tell my clients is, look, 134 00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:59,500 if they say, Well, I haven't really tried anything else, it's 135 00:07:59,500 --> 00:08:02,040 probably not that important to solve, because they haven't 136 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:04,440 tried anything. If it's something important, they say, 137 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:07,020 Well, we tried this, we tried this, this didn't work, that 138 00:08:07,020 --> 00:08:11,160 didn't work. And there's research that says the greatest 139 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:15,300 reason why people pick one services vendor over another is 140 00:08:15,300 --> 00:08:18,660 how well they feel you understand their situation. So 141 00:08:18,660 --> 00:08:21,680 as soon as you jump to the solution, you're talking about 142 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:27,440 yourself, not them, and their favorite topic is them. And if 143 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:30,380 you can convey that you understand and help them 144 00:08:30,380 --> 00:08:33,860 understand their predicament, then they're more likely to be 145 00:08:33,860 --> 00:08:36,920 open to the solution. So where do these proverbs tie into that 146 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:39,260 kind of stuff? Because I'm sure they do. Yeah. I 147 00:08:39,260 --> 00:08:41,260 Tamsen Webster: mean, I think what, what it reminds me of is 148 00:08:41,260 --> 00:08:44,260 the first proverb there, which is that change isn't just an 149 00:08:44,260 --> 00:08:47,980 action, it's a reaction. Meaning, if we're trying to get 150 00:08:47,980 --> 00:08:51,520 well, first and foremost, that reaction, that's where you think 151 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:56,200 about re, hyphen, action, a true change in thinking or behavior, 152 00:08:56,200 --> 00:09:01,200 is a repeated action and and one that is internally motivated, 153 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:04,860 which is why it has to come in from their side of it has to be 154 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:09,000 they. It has to make sense to them based on what they already 155 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:13,260 want, what they already know, what they already care about. So 156 00:09:13,260 --> 00:09:16,680 if we are not focused on that piece and we're just trying to 157 00:09:16,680 --> 00:09:20,840 get that quick action, then again, we may not get that long 158 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:24,200 term. Yes, we may get somebody asked because yes, you've raised 159 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:26,840 the stakes, or you've made the pain of the status quo exceed 160 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:29,840 the pain of change, or whatever it might be. But also, just to 161 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:34,520 your point, it's also reaction to you. Because if you're trying 162 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:37,160 to introduce a new perspective on this problem, if you're 163 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:39,560 trying to get them to see consequences that they're not 164 00:09:39,560 --> 00:09:41,920 seeing, if you're trying to reveal to them that there is a 165 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:45,940 deeper problem underneath the one that they know about, then 166 00:09:45,940 --> 00:09:51,040 the biggest source of new information is you, and so much 167 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:55,120 of how you approach that change whether or not you make them 168 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:58,540 feel worse as a result of what they've done, if you make them 169 00:09:58,540 --> 00:10:02,160 feel bad about what they've. Doing if you make them, if you 170 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:04,920 insult their current vendor, right? By insulting their 171 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:07,800 current vendor, your consult, you're insulting them in many 172 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:11,400 ways that that can absolutely set you up for failure at the 173 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:15,780 beginning. So that's why I made that the first proverb, because 174 00:10:16,020 --> 00:10:19,380 I think a lot of times we just think that the information is 175 00:10:19,380 --> 00:10:23,180 enough to make the case on our own, but the approach that we 176 00:10:23,180 --> 00:10:27,200 take is just as important, because so much of what people 177 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:29,240 are reacting to is you, 178 00:10:29,780 --> 00:10:32,300 Ian Altman: yeah, you know what? I love some of these points, 179 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:35,660 there are a few things that kind of stick out to me. One is this 180 00:10:35,660 --> 00:10:38,960 notion of you can never say something negative about the 181 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:42,340 competition or about their current vendor, because if 182 00:10:42,340 --> 00:10:44,620 you've done the right job, if you're talking to the right 183 00:10:44,620 --> 00:10:48,940 person, they likely made the decision to hire the existing 184 00:10:48,940 --> 00:10:52,780 vendor. Say, Well, Who's the idiot who hired these people? 185 00:10:52,780 --> 00:10:54,880 And they're like, Well, that would be me. Okay, I'll let 186 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:59,020 myself out. Yeah, exactly. I'll just leave because it's not 187 00:10:59,020 --> 00:11:02,640 gonna work. And Deborah and I have adult children, so 25 and 188 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:06,780 23 we didn't fire their pediatrician. It's just our 189 00:11:06,780 --> 00:11:10,320 needs changed. We no longer had we no longer had children. We 190 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:13,140 had adults. Yeah, and the pediatrician basically said to 191 00:11:13,140 --> 00:11:16,620 our son, look, when you have to shave before coming to the 192 00:11:16,620 --> 00:11:20,360 doctor, it's time to you know, skip the pediatrician. You know, 193 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:23,780 who are coming here. It's like, Okay, fair enough, right? So 194 00:11:23,780 --> 00:11:28,460 that kind of, that kind of helps to illustrate this notion of, we 195 00:11:28,460 --> 00:11:33,380 got to get to that type of issue. We got to get beyond just 196 00:11:33,380 --> 00:11:36,980 this notion of, you know, us against them. It's more, how do 197 00:11:36,980 --> 00:11:39,740 we get on the same side? How are we trying to solve this puzzle? 198 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:45,100 It's okay, like, the that vendor you chose was probably the best 199 00:11:45,100 --> 00:11:49,180 vendor on the planet at that time in your in your situation, 200 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:52,540 that was awesome. And now that your needs have changed, we can 201 00:11:52,540 --> 00:11:56,500 expand this to new stuff that you hadn't thought about. And I 202 00:11:56,500 --> 00:12:00,120 go, well, that's kind of cool. Okay, exactly. Yeah, we can do 203 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:02,760 something different, and we can get more going on with that. 204 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:05,340 Wow, this is cool. Okay, there's something else to talk about. So 205 00:12:05,340 --> 00:12:09,600 the first proverb is this idea of every action is a reaction. 206 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:10,200 Is that? Right? 207 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:12,420 Tamsen Webster: Yeah, change isn't just an action, it's a 208 00:12:12,420 --> 00:12:13,020 reaction. 209 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:15,240 Ian Altman: It's a change is just an action, it's a reaction. 210 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:17,640 Which I love, because I often tell people it's like, you can 211 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:19,860 come in and think of the greatest thing, but it's like, 212 00:12:19,980 --> 00:12:24,380 it would be analogous to if you were a, if you were someone who 213 00:12:24,380 --> 00:12:29,600 did tennis elbow surgery. Yeah, you can't walk in and go, I'm 214 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:31,820 the best at tennis elbow surgery. So why don't we get 215 00:12:31,820 --> 00:12:35,960 together and, and let's, let's go through this and, and I've 216 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:39,080 got you scheduled for 10am on Tuesday. Here's some references, 217 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:41,620 because if the person doesn't believe they have tennis elbow. 218 00:12:41,680 --> 00:12:44,620 It really doesn't matter. And if the tennis elbow isn't affecting 219 00:12:44,620 --> 00:12:47,020 their life, they're not going to subject themselves to surgery. 220 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:49,780 And it's the same thing in this business world, where we're 221 00:12:49,780 --> 00:12:53,560 trying to make it so that people understand that exactly. Walk me 222 00:12:53,560 --> 00:12:58,480 through the Proverbs that and kind of how this is different 223 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:01,680 thinking for people, because I know that it is because I know 224 00:13:01,680 --> 00:13:04,260 the way your brain works, and you're always thinking of stuff 225 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:08,040 that most of us wouldn't think of. Yeah, and, and, and, I don't 226 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:11,340 want you to give away everything in the book, because people 227 00:13:11,340 --> 00:13:11,880 should get 228 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:13,860 Tamsen Webster: that. They should Well, I'm just giving 229 00:13:13,860 --> 00:13:16,500 people a little taste here. So the first three Proverbs, we've 230 00:13:16,500 --> 00:13:19,320 actually talked about two of the three. And so that first one is 231 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:22,040 change isn't just an action. It's a reaction, meaning really 232 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:25,760 be You control a huge amount about whether or not this is 233 00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:30,200 going to be a yes or not. So yep, don't you know, take that 234 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:33,500 with the responsibility that is, yeah. As I say, your approach 235 00:13:33,500 --> 00:13:38,660 can just as easily implode a change as inspire one second 236 00:13:38,660 --> 00:13:43,120 one. Every decision has a story. So what I'm talking about there 237 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:47,140 is it's not just an explanation that we're giving people. We 238 00:13:47,140 --> 00:13:50,620 have to give them an actual case, and I mean that quite 239 00:13:50,620 --> 00:13:55,240 literally, that they can make to themselves and to other people 240 00:13:55,420 --> 00:13:59,080 about why that particular action makes sense. Then it's like, 241 00:13:59,140 --> 00:14:02,040 okay, well, if it's an argument, what is it based on? And that's 242 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:05,400 where the third principle comes into play, and that is that the 243 00:14:05,460 --> 00:14:10,440 principles set patterns. And this is one of the, you know, 244 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:14,040 what I'm getting at at this one is that, you know, when we're 245 00:14:14,100 --> 00:14:18,960 thinking about what we say yes to, and this is, I think, one of 246 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:22,220 the places where it's the book really starts to diverge from 247 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:26,780 other people's thinking is that these actions, these arguments 248 00:14:26,780 --> 00:14:31,580 that we agree with, are based on beliefs that we already have. 249 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:35,420 And so if we're trying to understand why someone's doing 250 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:38,840 whatever they're doing right now, we have to stop and think 251 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:41,980 about, well, why would it have made sense to them in the first 252 00:14:41,980 --> 00:14:45,460 place, and then from there, we can have a much better 253 00:14:45,460 --> 00:14:48,880 understanding about why something different would so 254 00:14:48,940 --> 00:14:52,360 those first three are kind of setting the stage for 255 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:55,600 understanding how change happens, but it's the next three 256 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:59,140 that I think are the most countercultural when it comes to 257 00:14:59,260 --> 00:15:00,600 sales messaging. Particular 258 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:03,840 Ian Altman: so talking before we dive into these next three what 259 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:08,820 I want to know is, so what a I love, how I love how the dogs 260 00:15:08,820 --> 00:15:13,920 have figured out how to how to create a reaction. 261 00:15:14,159 --> 00:15:17,279 Tamsen Webster: Yes, you've Yes, thank you for being patient. 262 00:15:17,459 --> 00:15:20,119 Yes, this is one of those times where at this point of the day, 263 00:15:20,119 --> 00:15:22,999 I have to be very careful. We have to be very careful about 264 00:15:22,999 --> 00:15:25,879 both Tom, my husband and I being on the call at the same time, 265 00:15:25,879 --> 00:15:29,599 which we are, which means that, no, he can't save me right now 266 00:15:29,599 --> 00:15:33,979 from this dog that is like now, just getting a constant stream 267 00:15:33,979 --> 00:15:37,339 of treats so that she doesn't fully interrupt, 268 00:15:37,820 --> 00:15:40,540 Ian Altman: of course, but, but she's, she's figured out. She's 269 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:42,460 She's clearly read the book. She's 270 00:15:42,580 --> 00:15:44,680 Tamsen Webster: clearly read the book. This is a very smart, this 271 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:47,140 is a very smart dog. This one, well, these breakdowns, is what 272 00:15:47,140 --> 00:15:50,560 they do. They That's right, yes, she's, yeah, the only thing that 273 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:53,560 would make it better is if I were a rabbit, but exactly 274 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:58,840 Ian Altman: so. So what? So in these next three, yes, what I'd 275 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:02,280 love for you to kind of lay out is, what is it that people are 276 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:05,880 what is it that people are trying to accomplish? And what 277 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:09,660 do they do typically, versus what are you suggesting? Because 278 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:12,840 what I'm trying to help people with is okay, so if you're 279 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:15,360 trying to accomplish this, and you may typically do this, 280 00:16:15,420 --> 00:16:18,540 here's a counterintuitive way to look at it. Yep, you can unpack 281 00:16:18,540 --> 00:16:21,020 it however works for you. But that's true. That's what I'd 282 00:16:21,020 --> 00:16:23,060 like our listeners to understand 283 00:16:23,359 --> 00:16:25,519 Tamsen Webster: absolutely well, almost always, if you're coming 284 00:16:25,519 --> 00:16:28,459 in and you are trying to get a change, if you're trying to get 285 00:16:28,519 --> 00:16:31,699 the person to change partners, change vendors, to you, you're 286 00:16:31,699 --> 00:16:34,879 trying to get them to adopt or expand. Let's say, if you're 287 00:16:34,879 --> 00:16:37,519 trying to do an inside sale and try to get them to expand what 288 00:16:37,519 --> 00:16:41,439 they're doing, right? There is something that in their mind, in 289 00:16:41,439 --> 00:16:45,339 your mind, needs to change and and usually the way we think 290 00:16:45,339 --> 00:16:48,639 about that is, well, then I need to change what they think. I 291 00:16:48,639 --> 00:16:51,879 need to change what they believe. This is where it goes 292 00:16:51,879 --> 00:16:57,219 wrong, because, as I say in the fifth proverb, that the deepest 293 00:16:57,219 --> 00:17:01,439 beliefs are the hardest to shift. We know this intuitively, 294 00:17:01,439 --> 00:17:04,919 right? The longer somebody believes something, the stronger 295 00:17:04,919 --> 00:17:08,519 they believe it. But what that means is, is that when you try 296 00:17:08,519 --> 00:17:11,219 to bring in a new belief, saying, well, that's not your 297 00:17:11,219 --> 00:17:15,419 problem. This is or you don't want that. You want this or this 298 00:17:15,419 --> 00:17:19,379 is the real reason this is happening, even if they say yes, 299 00:17:19,379 --> 00:17:22,399 which is unlikely, because, remember, they're going to say 300 00:17:22,399 --> 00:17:25,219 yes to things that agree with what they already have agreed 301 00:17:25,219 --> 00:17:29,239 with. Then even if they do say yes, then you've got this 302 00:17:29,239 --> 00:17:33,559 little, tiny, weak baby new belief, like the first time it 303 00:17:33,559 --> 00:17:37,939 gets tested, running up against this 800 pound gorilla of the 304 00:17:37,939 --> 00:17:42,759 way they have done things to date. So what I have seen now 305 00:17:42,759 --> 00:17:46,359 work over and over again in sales, messaging, all sorts of 306 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:50,139 other messaging, is, instead of trying to challenge their those 307 00:17:50,139 --> 00:17:53,979 beliefs that are getting in the way, search for another one that 308 00:17:53,979 --> 00:17:58,299 is stronger that they already have. So what that means 309 00:17:58,299 --> 00:18:02,099 sometimes is saying, All right, so you don't think you know, if 310 00:18:02,099 --> 00:18:05,159 I try to actually say, Stop doing this. Do this. Instead, 311 00:18:05,279 --> 00:18:08,939 unlikely that someone's going to do that. But generally, there is 312 00:18:08,939 --> 00:18:13,079 something else that they agree as far as how sales work, how 313 00:18:13,079 --> 00:18:16,979 people work, how maths work, how the world works, that actually 314 00:18:16,979 --> 00:18:20,659 is much more reliable and supports the changes you're 315 00:18:20,659 --> 00:18:23,779 trying to make that then when you put those two things in a 316 00:18:23,779 --> 00:18:25,639 fight, it's much more likely to win. 317 00:18:26,660 --> 00:18:29,780 Ian Altman: Yeah, and it's, it's one of these things where I 318 00:18:29,780 --> 00:18:35,360 often say that our clients will believe 127% of what we say, 319 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:40,540 and, you know, and something less than 50% of what we say. So 320 00:18:40,660 --> 00:18:43,480 they're always going to believe more of what, more of what they 321 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:47,260 say than what we say. And so oftentimes we take this approach 322 00:18:47,260 --> 00:18:51,220 of, you know, it's, it's not challenging what their beliefs 323 00:18:51,220 --> 00:18:54,220 are. It's just more so on a scale of one to 10, how well is 324 00:18:54,220 --> 00:18:57,400 that working for you? Yes. And if they go, I don't know, it's 325 00:18:57,400 --> 00:18:59,920 probably like a six, really. Why six? Well, because this working, 326 00:18:59,920 --> 00:19:04,560 but that isn't okay. So and then using a line from Phil Jones 327 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:07,680 would be well, so how open would you be to considering something 328 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:11,280 different? And now it's like it was their idea to do something 329 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:15,420 different, so it's okay. But if you come in and say, well, doing 330 00:19:15,420 --> 00:19:18,060 it that way is going to be awful, they usually are going to 331 00:19:18,060 --> 00:19:22,280 be resistant if you say to them. So other clients of ours, when 332 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:24,860 they've done it this way in the past, didn't even realize this 333 00:19:24,860 --> 00:19:28,100 was what was happening. And when they've moved this other system, 334 00:19:28,100 --> 00:19:31,580 these other great things happen. How possible you think that is 335 00:19:31,580 --> 00:19:35,660 in your situation? Then they go, Hey, I got this idea that maybe 336 00:19:35,660 --> 00:19:38,000 this would happen. And you're like, oh, it's brilliant that 337 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:41,020 you have that idea. But it's more just about sharing, like, 338 00:19:41,020 --> 00:19:44,920 if we share a third party story, someone goes, Oh, yeah, I'm 339 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:48,880 probably a lot like them. If I say to you, you should do it 340 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:51,460 this way, I'm probably going to get resistance if I say other 341 00:19:51,460 --> 00:19:53,620 people had this, but that probably doesn't apply to you, 342 00:19:53,620 --> 00:19:55,720 right? They're like, well, it totally applies to me. It's the 343 00:19:56,140 --> 00:19:59,440 same thing, but it now became their idea. So, you know, this, 344 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:03,360 this notion. Of those deepest beliefs being the hardest ones 345 00:20:03,360 --> 00:20:07,200 to change. Totally get that and and too often I see people make 346 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:10,620 a mistake of trying to fight that, and it's a losing battle. 347 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:14,520 If you want to get top results for your team, take a look at 348 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:17,760 these same side, selling Academy. Just visit same side 349 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:20,840 selling.com to learn more. That's 350 00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:24,200 Tamsen Webster: right. So I say use, use their beliefs in your 351 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:26,900 favor. So it's the whole full lot, you know, the whole 352 00:20:26,900 --> 00:20:31,340 phenomenon is something that's known as cognitive inertia. It's 353 00:20:31,340 --> 00:20:35,660 like regular inertia. That is like something that, you know, 354 00:20:35,660 --> 00:20:38,180 body at rest, stays at rest. The thing is, with cognitive 355 00:20:38,180 --> 00:20:41,200 inertia, it's our beliefs that don't move right? It's that we, 356 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:43,420 you know, we stick with the beliefs that we already have and 357 00:20:43,420 --> 00:20:47,380 the stories that we already tell ourselves. So the thing is, 358 00:20:47,380 --> 00:20:50,200 like, when you work, and as I say, to be don't challenge 359 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:53,620 people's beliefs. Exchange them, exchange them for something that 360 00:20:53,620 --> 00:20:57,580 they know or that makes more intuitive sense than what 361 00:20:57,580 --> 00:21:00,300 they're doing now, or functionally, when they put it 362 00:21:00,300 --> 00:21:03,840 together, like, ah, yeah, based on what I know to be true, based 363 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:07,260 on my own experience, your prospect can say, yeah, that 364 00:21:07,260 --> 00:21:09,900 actually does make more sense. Like I was talking with someone 365 00:21:09,900 --> 00:21:13,980 who works at a social media management company, and, you 366 00:21:13,980 --> 00:21:17,160 know, and again, there's lots of options for that, lots of 367 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:19,380 different things, so it's hard to stand out in that 368 00:21:19,380 --> 00:21:22,520 marketplace. So it was funny, because we were on, I was on a 369 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:25,460 podcast, and he paused, and he just, he showed a he showed an 370 00:21:25,460 --> 00:21:28,460 ad for them, and I said, you know, what's so interesting is 371 00:21:28,460 --> 00:21:30,860 that the case, you know, all these testimonials that you 372 00:21:30,860 --> 00:21:34,340 picked, all of them talk about kind of the reporting and all of 373 00:21:34,340 --> 00:21:37,040 that. And I'm sure it's very tempting to say, or our 374 00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:40,220 reporting is so much better, but this is one of those places 375 00:21:40,220 --> 00:21:43,000 where they can stand out. Because clearly what's important 376 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:45,940 to the folks that they're talking to is visibility, right? 377 00:21:46,060 --> 00:21:49,180 And the more that you can say like, the greater visibility you 378 00:21:49,180 --> 00:21:53,740 have into what's working and what's not, the better you can 379 00:21:54,220 --> 00:21:57,820 manage your social media platforms saying something like 380 00:21:57,820 --> 00:22:01,200 that, where someone's like, Well, that's true if, yeah, the 381 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:05,040 better I can see things, the better decisions I can make. 382 00:22:05,700 --> 00:22:09,120 Then all of a sudden you've supplanted anything else that 383 00:22:09,120 --> 00:22:11,940 says what you know. Instead of making it about this program 384 00:22:11,940 --> 00:22:14,040 versus that program, you're like, Well, now you've made it 385 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:17,880 so that visibility means everything for my 386 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:20,540 Ian Altman: clients with often find is okay. So if I said to 387 00:22:20,540 --> 00:22:24,020 you, oh, here's a better way to do it, the client's gonna say, 388 00:22:24,020 --> 00:22:26,000 now we wouldn't want to do that. If you say, Well, it's 389 00:22:26,120 --> 00:22:29,600 interesting, because people used to do this now find that this is 390 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:32,480 working better. So how do you think that would be different 391 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:35,780 for you guys? It'd probably be the same for us. Okay? And now 392 00:22:35,780 --> 00:22:39,140 it became their idea, the people you're talking about in the 393 00:22:39,140 --> 00:22:42,580 social media marketing company, yeah, I think the notion for 394 00:22:42,580 --> 00:22:46,720 them of being able to say, for example, so that visibility is 395 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:49,900 important, but if they if their messaging was almost talking 396 00:22:49,900 --> 00:22:53,320 more to the problems of other people, and say, you know, a lot 397 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:56,320 of times we had clients who said, in the past, the people 398 00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:59,200 they worked with, they didn't have visibility into what was 399 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:02,520 going on, And without that visibility, by the time they 400 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:05,520 realized something was or wasn't working, they had wasted a lot 401 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:09,300 of money on it. So we've changed that to give instant visibility 402 00:23:09,420 --> 00:23:12,540 so they can pivot as soon as they start seeing results. How 403 00:23:12,540 --> 00:23:16,440 would you guys use that? Now the client goes, Oh, if I had that, 404 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:19,620 I would do X, Y and Z. And now it's like, well, forget about 405 00:23:19,620 --> 00:23:23,000 the company I was working with because I had that same problem. 406 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:26,000 You know, we often say that people are highly attuned to the 407 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:29,060 symptoms they're experiencing. They just don't know what the 408 00:23:29,120 --> 00:23:32,000 what the condition is that's causing it, or how to treat it, 409 00:23:32,120 --> 00:23:34,640 but they know what the superficial symptoms are, and if 410 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:37,220 we can tap into that, then we get their attention. That's 411 00:23:37,220 --> 00:23:41,740 Tamsen Webster: exactly right. And and by by what I have seen 412 00:23:41,740 --> 00:23:46,000 is that by articulating that in a way that, again, feels 413 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:49,960 universally true, right, like the better visibility that you 414 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,600 have, the better decisions you can make, right? Like, that's 415 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:56,560 what we believe at this company, and so that's why we approach it 416 00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:59,980 this way. And that's what we've seen with our clients, is that 417 00:23:59,980 --> 00:24:05,520 when they do X and Y, they see, and that has been just for me in 418 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:08,520 my work, as I've been working with folks, you know, with this, 419 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:11,880 with particularly with these Proverbs, but in this approach 420 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:15,960 of really finding that, you know, I call it a core case like 421 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:19,740 this, this, what is the underlying argument for what you 422 00:24:19,740 --> 00:24:23,180 are, what you're putting out there, like, Why? Why is it that 423 00:24:23,180 --> 00:24:27,560 you believe this is right, without resorting to features, 424 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:30,200 you know, flooding them with features, or, like, benefit 425 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:33,800 bombing or anything like that, like, like, really, like, in a 426 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:37,820 way that makes intuitive sense to them, what ends up happening 427 00:24:37,820 --> 00:24:41,800 is that your clients end up saying, Ah, yeah, I agree in 428 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:46,780 principle that why this would work, and with that kind of that 429 00:24:46,780 --> 00:24:50,860 early and really critical, yes, secured, then you can start to 430 00:24:50,860 --> 00:24:55,120 dive into the details of what it looks like in practice, either 431 00:24:55,120 --> 00:24:58,300 for other clients or potentially for them, so that you can start 432 00:24:58,300 --> 00:25:00,120 to go into needs discovery and all of. Yeah, 433 00:25:00,360 --> 00:25:02,880 Ian Altman: yeah. What I love is that you're, you're giving 434 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:07,260 people insight into how our customers make decisions, yes, 435 00:25:07,260 --> 00:25:10,680 and what they need to believe in order to get behind a decision 436 00:25:10,740 --> 00:25:14,040 so they can own it. And I think that's what, that's what, 437 00:25:14,340 --> 00:25:17,040 obviously, I spend a lot of time with people on which is, look, 438 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:20,660 if you can find someone who says, Yeah, I have this problem, 439 00:25:20,660 --> 00:25:23,720 and that problem is costing me a lot, and it's really important 440 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:26,240 for me to solve. Now you have their attention. If someone 441 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:28,580 says, Well, here's this thing I'd like to do, and you start 442 00:25:28,580 --> 00:25:32,060 talking about your solution, what you fail to recognize is 443 00:25:32,060 --> 00:25:34,880 that they may not really be bought into how big of a deal 444 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:37,940 this is yet. And so your solution, they're like, well, 445 00:25:37,940 --> 00:25:41,140 that's kind of cool if, if it was a big problem. Now, the 446 00:25:41,140 --> 00:25:44,440 salesperson says, well, but you called me, it must be a big 447 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:48,280 deal. No, they're just like, huh, I got this issue. These 448 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:51,160 guys claim to solve it. Let's see what they got and but 449 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:54,460 they're not bought into it yet. And I think that if we do this 450 00:25:54,460 --> 00:25:58,060 right, we're providing our clients with information. So in 451 00:25:58,060 --> 00:26:01,800 essence, if we ask the right questions, they'll convince us 452 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:05,400 that things are worth solving. And if we can convince if we can 453 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:08,580 get them to convince us that it's worth solving, they're also 454 00:26:08,580 --> 00:26:11,220 convincing themselves. And then all of a sudden, now it's like, 455 00:26:11,460 --> 00:26:15,660 Okay, now, now we're on to something where, okay, now we 456 00:26:15,660 --> 00:26:19,080 can say something that they can't unhear. Because mostly 457 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:22,160 what we're saying is their ideas. We're just kind of 458 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:23,000 spitting them back to 459 00:26:23,180 --> 00:26:24,860 Tamsen Webster: them, that's right. And I think where it 460 00:26:24,860 --> 00:26:30,020 comes and creates this magic, kind of magic elixir between 461 00:26:30,020 --> 00:26:33,740 them now saying, oh my gosh, I actually have to solve this. And 462 00:26:33,740 --> 00:26:38,000 you saying, and yes, we've got a way to solve it is by finding 463 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:41,860 that way to again, using something that they already know 464 00:26:41,860 --> 00:26:46,060 to be true to say, All right, so you know, you've got this issue 465 00:26:46,060 --> 00:26:50,140 that you called with right the way we see it is that in order 466 00:26:50,140 --> 00:26:53,860 to solve that, we have to solve this thing first. Because let's 467 00:26:53,860 --> 00:26:55,960 go back to the social media thing, because if you can't 468 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,680 actually see the results of what you're talking about, you can't 469 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:02,940 solve it. So that's why it's been so important for us to make 470 00:27:02,940 --> 00:27:04,980 sure that when we're working with clients, we're actually 471 00:27:04,980 --> 00:27:08,280 really focused on visibility. This gets really powerful when 472 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:12,420 you can say, but that's not all right when you can actually add 473 00:27:12,420 --> 00:27:15,300 this other thing that says, because you know, you can have a 474 00:27:15,300 --> 00:27:18,600 whole bunch of visibility. But if, if, if one thing is showing 475 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:21,320 you things in black and white and the other thing is showing 476 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,140 you in color, then you may not actually be able to match 477 00:27:24,140 --> 00:27:28,400 anything up. That's why, right? We want to make sure that if 478 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,700 we're if we are getting visibility, that we have a clear 479 00:27:31,700 --> 00:27:34,220 view and we're using the same lens on everything that we're 480 00:27:34,220 --> 00:27:38,300 looking at. So that's why, in our comprehensive system, right, 481 00:27:38,360 --> 00:27:42,700 x, y and z. So, and then you can again relate that back to the 482 00:27:42,700 --> 00:27:47,740 client. So it really is this, this piece about, like, going 483 00:27:47,740 --> 00:27:52,360 back into those, into those beliefs, about using the beliefs 484 00:27:52,360 --> 00:27:56,260 as the core data that's supporting your case for why you 485 00:27:56,740 --> 00:27:59,980 and that, I think, is really where this, this approach, goes. 486 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,480 You know, I think speaking about where we end up going wrong 487 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:07,620 sometimes, is we, we? We want to flood them with all the data and 488 00:28:07,620 --> 00:28:10,560 all the information, all the facts and the figures, but you 489 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:13,860 know very much along the lines of what you said, they're going 490 00:28:13,860 --> 00:28:18,480 to believe their own experience most. So leverage their 491 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:22,100 experience, leverage what they know to be true, and explain why 492 00:28:22,100 --> 00:28:25,760 your product works based on their experience. And then 493 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:29,180 you've got to really that's what becomes very difficult for them 494 00:28:29,180 --> 00:28:32,180 to unhear. When they're like, oh, this solves a problem that I 495 00:28:32,180 --> 00:28:36,620 know I want solves, and the way that it works is based on 496 00:28:36,620 --> 00:28:41,140 principles that make sense to me, that I believe are true. And 497 00:28:41,140 --> 00:28:44,020 from there, it becomes a lot easier for you to start 498 00:28:44,020 --> 00:28:47,200 anchoring the more more practical and tactical pieces of 499 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:48,280 what you've already presented. 500 00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:50,980 Ian Altman: Yeah, it's a whole notion of, if we ask the right 501 00:28:50,980 --> 00:28:53,680 questions, and we give the client the free will, and the 502 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,440 client makes a decision to do something that makes sense to 503 00:28:56,440 --> 00:29:00,720 them, then it wasn't like we talked them into something that 504 00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:03,720 they're gonna talk themselves out of, right? They talk 505 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:07,200 themselves into it. And the best way to do that is by us being 506 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:10,380 slightly skeptical. That says, Are you sure this is worth 507 00:29:10,380 --> 00:29:13,860 solving? Like, is this am I missing something? And then they 508 00:29:13,860 --> 00:29:16,860 either say, no, no, it is. You don't understand. But if we say, 509 00:29:16,980 --> 00:29:19,320 Wow, that's probably a really big deal, usually the client 510 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:22,580 goes, yeah, it's not such a big deal, even if it is because they 511 00:29:22,580 --> 00:29:26,180 feel pressure from someone else. I used to do this exercise with 512 00:29:26,180 --> 00:29:30,740 people pre covid That now is less popular to do, which is I 513 00:29:30,740 --> 00:29:33,440 would have people put their hands palm to palm against 514 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:37,220 someone else. And I gave instruction cards, and half of 515 00:29:37,220 --> 00:29:41,380 them said to gently push against the other person. And half them 516 00:29:41,380 --> 00:29:45,040 said, push slightly, and then slowly, draw your hands away 517 00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:48,460 from the other people. Yeah. And if you looked in the room, you 518 00:29:48,460 --> 00:29:52,660 could not tell the difference of who had which card, because the 519 00:29:52,660 --> 00:29:55,060 people who pushed got resistance, and the people 520 00:29:55,060 --> 00:29:58,540 pulled their hands away, the clients tended to follow. And it 521 00:29:58,540 --> 00:30:01,440 basically came down to it. If you create something of interest 522 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:05,340 and slowly pull it away, people will want to follow it. If you 523 00:30:05,340 --> 00:30:07,620 have something of interest, but you push, you tend to get 524 00:30:07,620 --> 00:30:12,480 resistance. And this whole idea of being able to say what they 525 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:16,680 can't unhear as I hear it, is this notion of if we tap into 526 00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:20,180 their own beliefs, if we tap into the stories that they can 527 00:30:20,180 --> 00:30:23,480 that they can believe, if we give them this idea of these 528 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:26,420 principles that form patterns, all of a sudden, now we've got a 529 00:30:26,420 --> 00:30:29,780 framework that says, Okay, I believe this. This is something 530 00:30:29,780 --> 00:30:33,860 that isn't foreign to me. I can buy into this concept. Am I? Oh, 531 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:34,940 absolutely, close. 532 00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:37,760 Tamsen Webster: That's 100% it. I mean, the whole philosophy of 533 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:40,240 the book is saying, well, all right, really what we're trying 534 00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:44,020 to get people is, is to buy in and sales literally buy it, 535 00:30:44,020 --> 00:30:46,780 right? We want them to become emotionally intellectually 536 00:30:46,780 --> 00:30:50,200 invested, so that they put the money behind it. And if we 537 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:53,680 operate from this understanding that, you know, every every 538 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:57,940 decision like that, every choice, every Yes, is the 539 00:30:57,940 --> 00:31:00,300 product of an argument, then we need to make sure that we're 540 00:31:00,300 --> 00:31:03,540 supplying that argument, and if the arguments we agree with are 541 00:31:03,540 --> 00:31:07,440 based on on what on the beliefs we already have, then the whole 542 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:10,680 philosophy of the book is really what it comes down to. It is 543 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,380 that if we're trying to build buy in, we need to be building 544 00:31:13,380 --> 00:31:16,440 these arguments that are based on what people already want, 545 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:21,620 already believe. So I think where you know you I mean, I've 546 00:31:21,620 --> 00:31:24,140 always loved so much your approach, and I really love 547 00:31:24,140 --> 00:31:27,140 that, that that visual of, if you give them something 548 00:31:27,140 --> 00:31:30,380 interesting, they'll follow. What this book really does is 549 00:31:30,380 --> 00:31:33,920 say, make sure that whatever they followed will they will 550 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:37,460 continue to follow. Because, as you also pointed out, there are 551 00:31:37,460 --> 00:31:40,120 those times where people will say yes, either to get you to 552 00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:43,420 stop talking, or because they don't want to lose face. And 553 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:46,780 there are some principles in the book that speak to that. So one 554 00:31:46,780 --> 00:31:50,320 of them, the fourth one, is that identity is the greatest 555 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:53,680 influencer. And what I mean, and what I'm talking about there, is 556 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:58,720 that one of the most reliable desires that all humans have is 557 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:02,880 to be seen as smart, capable and good. They may not believe that 558 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:06,600 they are, though many do, but they really want to be seen that 559 00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:09,840 way. They want to be seen as smart, capable and good and long 560 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:15,900 term, that desire will override anything else, which is why, if 561 00:32:15,900 --> 00:32:19,440 we make someone feel stupid for something that they've done in 562 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:26,420 the past, if we are using, if we are introducing pain into the 563 00:32:26,420 --> 00:32:29,480 initial sales discussion to get them to act quickly, and yet, 564 00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:32,900 what they stop and think about it, they're like, oh, actually 565 00:32:32,900 --> 00:32:36,260 no, I am too smart, capable of a good person to have done that, 566 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:41,080 then we may get the initial movement, but it will not be an 567 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:46,360 initial movement that stays that way, because that desire to be 568 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:49,720 seen as smart, capable and good, again, not by you the 569 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:53,140 salesperson, but by the people they have to see every day, is 570 00:32:53,140 --> 00:32:57,100 going to take over. And so it's, it's, it's really just asking 571 00:32:57,100 --> 00:33:00,540 people to think beyond that first moment. And it's and great 572 00:33:00,540 --> 00:33:03,000 salespeople already know this. It was one of the reasons why I 573 00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:06,300 was so delighted that Matthew Dixon, the co author the 574 00:33:06,300 --> 00:33:09,720 Challenger sale, gave me my cover blurb for it. Because, in 575 00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:12,780 a lot of ways, you know, the whole idea of challenging what 576 00:33:12,780 --> 00:33:18,840 people's beliefs is about is useful, if, right, if, if, if 577 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:23,780 we're doing it in a way that helps them validate their smart, 578 00:33:23,780 --> 00:33:26,840 capable and goodness, and doesn't make it conditional, 579 00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:29,720 which is what I think a lot of times we, perhaps 580 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,480 unintentionally, do, while saying, Well, you will be smart, 581 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:37,100 capable and good if you make this decision rather than you 582 00:33:37,100 --> 00:33:40,480 are. And there's why this decision makes sense. 583 00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:44,500 Ian Altman: Yeah, we often teach this notion that the reason why 584 00:33:44,500 --> 00:33:47,680 people often stick with an existing vendor, even if they've 585 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:50,140 messed up, and even if the new vendor comes in and shows how 586 00:33:50,140 --> 00:33:52,900 they're gonna be better, is because one, they have to fire 587 00:33:52,900 --> 00:33:56,140 the vendor they liked enough to hire to begin with, yes. And 588 00:33:56,140 --> 00:33:59,140 two, they have to acknowledge that maybe they made a mistake, 589 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,640 and most humans don't want to do either. So they go back to their 590 00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:05,220 existing vendor and say, Hey, these other guys said that we 591 00:34:05,220 --> 00:34:07,320 should be doing it this way. So why don't you take a look? And 592 00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:09,900 you're like, why did they not switch to us? And it's because 593 00:34:09,900 --> 00:34:12,360 we made them feel badly. If instead, you say, look, these 594 00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:15,180 guys were probably the best vendor to pick at the time. And 595 00:34:15,180 --> 00:34:18,120 what some people found is that just they've gotten so 596 00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:21,560 sophisticated as a company that those vendors can't service them 597 00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:24,200 anymore. You think that's possible with you? Oh yeah, 598 00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:26,840 that's probably true. Now it's like, I didn't make a mistake. 599 00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:29,900 It's that the other vendor can no longer support me, and 600 00:34:29,900 --> 00:34:31,520 that's, that's what's happened. So 601 00:34:32,059 --> 00:34:34,519 Tamsen Webster: validate that, validate that original choice, 602 00:34:34,519 --> 00:34:37,879 because then oftentimes it'll also reveal something that they 603 00:34:37,879 --> 00:34:41,619 value and they don't want to lose. And so if there's a way 604 00:34:41,619 --> 00:34:45,219 that you can build whatever they are, you know what they don't 605 00:34:45,219 --> 00:34:48,279 want to lose, make sure that you are emphasizing how that is 606 00:34:48,279 --> 00:34:51,639 still present in the switch. That can help too. 607 00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:54,939 Ian Altman: That's awesome. So where do people get the book, 608 00:34:54,939 --> 00:34:58,479 aside from everywhere, and where do they connect with you and 609 00:34:58,479 --> 00:34:59,919 learn more about what you're doing? Yeah. 610 00:35:00,180 --> 00:35:02,460 Tamsen Webster: So they can get the book. The easiest way to 611 00:35:02,460 --> 00:35:05,640 remember it is little changebook.com where they can 612 00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:08,520 get all sorts of aspects of it, because sometimes people don't 613 00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:11,940 remember say what they can't done here, I know irony, but 614 00:35:12,420 --> 00:35:16,980 little changebook.com and to find out and more along these 615 00:35:16,980 --> 00:35:20,660 lines of thinking, I recently founded the message design 616 00:35:20,660 --> 00:35:24,140 institute. So message design institute.com. Will take you to 617 00:35:24,140 --> 00:35:26,300 all things persuasive. Message design, 618 00:35:26,780 --> 00:35:28,940 Ian Altman: listen. Message design, I get, I still refer to 619 00:35:28,940 --> 00:35:32,060 you as the message whisperer, because I work that's I feel 620 00:35:32,060 --> 00:35:34,640 like that notion, that notion of, just like coming up with 621 00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:38,900 stuff that sticks, is is incredibly valuable. So thanks 622 00:35:38,900 --> 00:35:42,760 for sharing this. I can't wait to read the book and and I'm 623 00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:47,260 sure our listeners will love it as well. If it's, if it's half 624 00:35:47,260 --> 00:35:51,340 as good as find your red thread, then I guess find your red 625 00:35:51,340 --> 00:35:53,560 thread would be twice as good as this. That's not the right 626 00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:58,000 that's not the right example. But if it's, but if it's, if 627 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:01,920 it's half as good, it's still going to be amazing. So, and I'm 628 00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:04,920 sure it's even better. So thanks so much for joining me. Thank 629 00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:05,580 Tamsen Webster: you so much. Ian, you.