Ian Altman: Ian, welcome to the same side selling podcast. I am
your host. Ian Altman, they say you always want to surround
yourself with people who are smarter than you, and today is
no exception. I'm joined by my good friend, Tamsen Webster and
tampson, for those of you who are long time listeners,
probably remember tam from her book, find your red thread and
tampson, I apologize if it was finding or fine, but I No, yeah,
exactly
Tamsen Webster: right. You That was exactly the title of it. So
Ian Altman: what are the odds? So I get it right. Go figure. Go
figure. And I love the notion of the latest book, which is
titled, say what they can't unhear. Because if you think
about it, those of us in sales are always trying to figure out,
what can I say that's going to stick with my client? What are
the messages that I'm going to convey that really stick and
make it so people remember them and they'll actually say it back
to us the way we said it, if not better. So with that, let me
welcome you aboard everybody. I want you to meet tam Webster.
Hey, Tamsen, hey, hey, good to see you. Thanks for joining. So
what was the what was the driving force behind this book?
I know that's a boring question, but, but I wanted to know
because I was like, Wow, I love the topic of this, but what was
it that made you say, Okay, here's, here's what's needed out
in the marketplace.
Tamsen Webster: So really, the driving force behind this was my
watching our mutual friend Phil M Jones wrap yet another
audience around his British accented finger. And what I
realized, because I've seen Phil talk about sales and exactly
what to say and all of that, and I know he and you are aligned in
a lot of ways. I was watching him talk about his various
pieces and philosophies, and I said, you know, so much of what
he talks about and what you talk about is so good about in
getting an immediate action, getting action and a yes right
away, and what I'm not hearing, at least in what he is saying,
and as I was thinking about what else is in the marketplace, I
don't see as much and hear as much about how to keep that yes
as a yes. How do you keep someone how do you get a yes
that doesn't back away and become part of buyer's remorse?
How do you get a yes that doesn't turn into a ghost? How
do you get a yes that doesn't turn into well, you know, the
you know, procurement said no, right? So, how is it? What are
those concepts, in a very similar way that Phil presents
accessible, memorable, quick and to the point do I know from all
the time that I've spent doing long term change might help
shift that? So it really was that moment. I'm like, huh, he's
got these concepts. I'm like, I do too. So I wrote them and
created nine persuasion Proverbs, as I like to call them
to really focus on not just action, but sustained action,
keeping the yes, a yes, yeah. I
Ian Altman: mean, a lot of what I look at is, in many, in many
respects, you're often almost like the messaging whisperer,
like, Okay, what do we come up with that that someone hears and
they go, Oh, that's really good. That sticks. And I love that.
Everything you write about, everything you speak about,
there's always a structure behind it. So I'm not surprised
that there are nine proverbs that you share. So be before we
dive into those, sure, what are some of the mistakes that people
make when they're trying to accomplish this? So So
presumably, and you'll correct me if I'm wrong, but the goal
is, how do I how do I say stuff that's sticky that doesn't then
erode and get diluted over time, and people kind of forget and
don't care anymore?
Tamsen Webster: Yes, yep. So I think one of the main big
mistakes is that we go straight to the what we think will be
remarkable or sticky or different, without making sure
that those words that are wrapped around that idea, that
the idea underneath it is something that people would also
say yes to. So one of the things I often say to my clients is
that remarkable may get attention, but relevance keeps
it and there's a lot of things that we do sometimes to get
attention to be different, to be a challenger, to be
controversial with somebody, particularly that we're meeting
with, perhaps for the first time, so that we can stand out.
That while they may get that attention to start with, in many
ways, it works against long term change to begin with. So I would
say that in addition to focusing on, how do we be different, how
do we stand out? The other big mistake is focusing on quick
action rather than long term, sustained changes in thinking or
behavior, and that oftentimes is a different set of principles.
Ian Altman: Yeah, and it's interesting, because I think
it's one of the things that I. I say, I talk about a lot also,
which is very often somebody will say, Oh, here's this thing
we want to solve. And old school sales would jump into the
solution right away, instead of, well, help me understand why
that's important, and what is it you're really trying to solve,
and what have you done to try and solve this? And who else is
most directly impacted? We unpack all this other stuff that
now makes it so that we can come back to them and say, okay, in
order to solve that underlying issue and get this outcome, this
is what would suggest. But if we didn't do that, if we just jump
to the solution, we kind of get this watered down problem that
they have that doesn't have a lot of relevance,
Tamsen Webster: absolutely and and we're also not giving them
all the pieces of the story that's going to happen in their
heads, or that actually has to happen in their heads in order
for it to make sense. I'm sure we talked about this a little
bit the last time, and it's the second proverb in the book. But
every decision has a story behind it, right? A story that
somebody tells themselves. And one of the ways that I talk
about it in this new book is that every action somebody takes
ends an internal argument in their heads about why that
action does or doesn't. Make sense, right? And so if somebody
chooses you or doesn't choose you, it's because they are
telling themselves a story about why they should or shouldn't.
And so the whole idea is, if we only give people the problem and
the solution, which is just the beginning and the end of the
story, like that would be a very unsatisfying story. You know, if
it were a once upon a time story, I often use the Star Wars
example of like, well, once upon a time, there's a Brady kid
named Luke, and he saved the galaxy. And you're like, Okay,
fine, there's no conflict. There's no why would I listen?
You know? And, and the equivalent is basically saying,
oh, that's your problem. Here's our solution. And then when we
when people really want that deeper connection, and the
connection in between is, why is that the solution? Then,
oftentimes what we end up doing then is like, benefit bombing
them and say, well, you're going to get this and you're going to
get this and you're going to get this and you're going to get
this, and that you still haven't actually explained why your
solution would legitimately solve their problem. So they
you're not giving them all the pieces they need to tell that
story to themselves, which is absolutely why they can't tell
it to somebody else either.
Ian Altman: Yeah, and it's interesting, because I think in
my research, a lot of what we find is that it's not that the
person hasn't tapped into at some level the problem. Oh,
absolutely right. They don't yet believe that it's a really
serious problem. So like, wow, this thing kind of happened, and
why? You know, we should probably fix that so, so let's
go, let's go search for a solution. But it's when the
person communicating with them asked the question about, so how
long has it been going on? What happens if you can't solve this?
What have you tried so far? And what I tell my clients is, look,
if they say, Well, I haven't really tried anything else, it's
probably not that important to solve, because they haven't
tried anything. If it's something important, they say,
Well, we tried this, we tried this, this didn't work, that
didn't work. And there's research that says the greatest
reason why people pick one services vendor over another is
how well they feel you understand their situation. So
as soon as you jump to the solution, you're talking about
yourself, not them, and their favorite topic is them. And if
you can convey that you understand and help them
understand their predicament, then they're more likely to be
open to the solution. So where do these proverbs tie into that
kind of stuff? Because I'm sure they do. Yeah. I
Tamsen Webster: mean, I think what, what it reminds me of is
the first proverb there, which is that change isn't just an
action, it's a reaction. Meaning, if we're trying to get
well, first and foremost, that reaction, that's where you think
about re, hyphen, action, a true change in thinking or behavior,
is a repeated action and and one that is internally motivated,
which is why it has to come in from their side of it has to be
they. It has to make sense to them based on what they already
want, what they already know, what they already care about. So
if we are not focused on that piece and we're just trying to
get that quick action, then again, we may not get that long
term. Yes, we may get somebody asked because yes, you've raised
the stakes, or you've made the pain of the status quo exceed
the pain of change, or whatever it might be. But also, just to
your point, it's also reaction to you. Because if you're trying
to introduce a new perspective on this problem, if you're
trying to get them to see consequences that they're not
seeing, if you're trying to reveal to them that there is a
deeper problem underneath the one that they know about, then
the biggest source of new information is you, and so much
of how you approach that change whether or not you make them
feel worse as a result of what they've done, if you make them
feel bad about what they've. Doing if you make them, if you
insult their current vendor, right? By insulting their
current vendor, your consult, you're insulting them in many
ways that that can absolutely set you up for failure at the
beginning. So that's why I made that the first proverb, because
I think a lot of times we just think that the information is
enough to make the case on our own, but the approach that we
take is just as important, because so much of what people
are reacting to is you,
Ian Altman: yeah, you know what? I love some of these points,
there are a few things that kind of stick out to me. One is this
notion of you can never say something negative about the
competition or about their current vendor, because if
you've done the right job, if you're talking to the right
person, they likely made the decision to hire the existing
vendor. Say, Well, Who's the idiot who hired these people?
And they're like, Well, that would be me. Okay, I'll let
myself out. Yeah, exactly. I'll just leave because it's not
gonna work. And Deborah and I have adult children, so 25 and
23 we didn't fire their pediatrician. It's just our
needs changed. We no longer had we no longer had children. We
had adults. Yeah, and the pediatrician basically said to
our son, look, when you have to shave before coming to the
doctor, it's time to you know, skip the pediatrician. You know,
who are coming here. It's like, Okay, fair enough, right? So
that kind of, that kind of helps to illustrate this notion of, we
got to get to that type of issue. We got to get beyond just
this notion of, you know, us against them. It's more, how do
we get on the same side? How are we trying to solve this puzzle?
It's okay, like, the that vendor you chose was probably the best
vendor on the planet at that time in your in your situation,
that was awesome. And now that your needs have changed, we can
expand this to new stuff that you hadn't thought about. And I
go, well, that's kind of cool. Okay, exactly. Yeah, we can do
something different, and we can get more going on with that.
Wow, this is cool. Okay, there's something else to talk about. So
the first proverb is this idea of every action is a reaction.
Is that? Right?
Tamsen Webster: Yeah, change isn't just an action, it's a
reaction.
Ian Altman: It's a change is just an action, it's a reaction.
Which I love, because I often tell people it's like, you can
come in and think of the greatest thing, but it's like,
it would be analogous to if you were a, if you were someone who
did tennis elbow surgery. Yeah, you can't walk in and go, I'm
the best at tennis elbow surgery. So why don't we get
together and, and let's, let's go through this and, and I've
got you scheduled for 10am on Tuesday. Here's some references,
because if the person doesn't believe they have tennis elbow.
It really doesn't matter. And if the tennis elbow isn't affecting
their life, they're not going to subject themselves to surgery.
And it's the same thing in this business world, where we're
trying to make it so that people understand that exactly. Walk me
through the Proverbs that and kind of how this is different
thinking for people, because I know that it is because I know
the way your brain works, and you're always thinking of stuff
that most of us wouldn't think of. Yeah, and, and, and, I don't
want you to give away everything in the book, because people
should get
Tamsen Webster: that. They should Well, I'm just giving
people a little taste here. So the first three Proverbs, we've
actually talked about two of the three. And so that first one is
change isn't just an action. It's a reaction, meaning really
be You control a huge amount about whether or not this is
going to be a yes or not. So yep, don't you know, take that
with the responsibility that is, yeah. As I say, your approach
can just as easily implode a change as inspire one second
one. Every decision has a story. So what I'm talking about there
is it's not just an explanation that we're giving people. We
have to give them an actual case, and I mean that quite
literally, that they can make to themselves and to other people
about why that particular action makes sense. Then it's like,
okay, well, if it's an argument, what is it based on? And that's
where the third principle comes into play, and that is that the
principles set patterns. And this is one of the, you know,
what I'm getting at at this one is that, you know, when we're
thinking about what we say yes to, and this is, I think, one of
the places where it's the book really starts to diverge from
other people's thinking is that these actions, these arguments
that we agree with, are based on beliefs that we already have.
And so if we're trying to understand why someone's doing
whatever they're doing right now, we have to stop and think
about, well, why would it have made sense to them in the first
place, and then from there, we can have a much better
understanding about why something different would so
those first three are kind of setting the stage for
understanding how change happens, but it's the next three
that I think are the most countercultural when it comes to
sales messaging. Particular
Ian Altman: so talking before we dive into these next three what
I want to know is, so what a I love, how I love how the dogs
have figured out how to how to create a reaction.
Tamsen Webster: Yes, you've Yes, thank you for being patient.
Yes, this is one of those times where at this point of the day,
I have to be very careful. We have to be very careful about
both Tom, my husband and I being on the call at the same time,
which we are, which means that, no, he can't save me right now
from this dog that is like now, just getting a constant stream
of treats so that she doesn't fully interrupt,
Ian Altman: of course, but, but she's, she's figured out. She's
She's clearly read the book. She's
Tamsen Webster: clearly read the book. This is a very smart, this
is a very smart dog. This one, well, these breakdowns, is what
they do. They That's right, yes, she's, yeah, the only thing that
would make it better is if I were a rabbit, but exactly
Ian Altman: so. So what? So in these next three, yes, what I'd
love for you to kind of lay out is, what is it that people are
what is it that people are trying to accomplish? And what
do they do typically, versus what are you suggesting? Because
what I'm trying to help people with is okay, so if you're
trying to accomplish this, and you may typically do this,
here's a counterintuitive way to look at it. Yep, you can unpack
it however works for you. But that's true. That's what I'd
like our listeners to understand
Tamsen Webster: absolutely well, almost always, if you're coming
in and you are trying to get a change, if you're trying to get
the person to change partners, change vendors, to you, you're
trying to get them to adopt or expand. Let's say, if you're
trying to do an inside sale and try to get them to expand what
they're doing, right? There is something that in their mind, in
your mind, needs to change and and usually the way we think
about that is, well, then I need to change what they think. I
need to change what they believe. This is where it goes
wrong, because, as I say in the fifth proverb, that the deepest
beliefs are the hardest to shift. We know this intuitively,
right? The longer somebody believes something, the stronger
they believe it. But what that means is, is that when you try
to bring in a new belief, saying, well, that's not your
problem. This is or you don't want that. You want this or this
is the real reason this is happening, even if they say yes,
which is unlikely, because, remember, they're going to say
yes to things that agree with what they already have agreed
with. Then even if they do say yes, then you've got this
little, tiny, weak baby new belief, like the first time it
gets tested, running up against this 800 pound gorilla of the
way they have done things to date. So what I have seen now
work over and over again in sales, messaging, all sorts of
other messaging, is, instead of trying to challenge their those
beliefs that are getting in the way, search for another one that
is stronger that they already have. So what that means
sometimes is saying, All right, so you don't think you know, if
I try to actually say, Stop doing this. Do this. Instead,
unlikely that someone's going to do that. But generally, there is
something else that they agree as far as how sales work, how
people work, how maths work, how the world works, that actually
is much more reliable and supports the changes you're
trying to make that then when you put those two things in a
fight, it's much more likely to win.
Ian Altman: Yeah, and it's, it's one of these things where I
often say that our clients will believe 127% of what we say,
and, you know, and something less than 50% of what we say. So
they're always going to believe more of what, more of what they
say than what we say. And so oftentimes we take this approach
of, you know, it's, it's not challenging what their beliefs
are. It's just more so on a scale of one to 10, how well is
that working for you? Yes. And if they go, I don't know, it's
probably like a six, really. Why six? Well, because this working,
but that isn't okay. So and then using a line from Phil Jones
would be well, so how open would you be to considering something
different? And now it's like it was their idea to do something
different, so it's okay. But if you come in and say, well, doing
it that way is going to be awful, they usually are going to
be resistant if you say to them. So other clients of ours, when
they've done it this way in the past, didn't even realize this
was what was happening. And when they've moved this other system,
these other great things happen. How possible you think that is
in your situation? Then they go, Hey, I got this idea that maybe
this would happen. And you're like, oh, it's brilliant that
you have that idea. But it's more just about sharing, like,
if we share a third party story, someone goes, Oh, yeah, I'm
probably a lot like them. If I say to you, you should do it
this way, I'm probably going to get resistance if I say other
people had this, but that probably doesn't apply to you,
right? They're like, well, it totally applies to me. It's the
same thing, but it now became their idea. So, you know, this,
this notion. Of those deepest beliefs being the hardest ones
to change. Totally get that and and too often I see people make
a mistake of trying to fight that, and it's a losing battle.
If you want to get top results for your team, take a look at
these same side, selling Academy. Just visit same side
selling.com to learn more. That's
Tamsen Webster: right. So I say use, use their beliefs in your
favor. So it's the whole full lot, you know, the whole
phenomenon is something that's known as cognitive inertia. It's
like regular inertia. That is like something that, you know,
body at rest, stays at rest. The thing is, with cognitive
inertia, it's our beliefs that don't move right? It's that we,
you know, we stick with the beliefs that we already have and
the stories that we already tell ourselves. So the thing is,
like, when you work, and as I say, to be don't challenge
people's beliefs. Exchange them, exchange them for something that
they know or that makes more intuitive sense than what
they're doing now, or functionally, when they put it
together, like, ah, yeah, based on what I know to be true, based
on my own experience, your prospect can say, yeah, that
actually does make more sense. Like I was talking with someone
who works at a social media management company, and, you
know, and again, there's lots of options for that, lots of
different things, so it's hard to stand out in that
marketplace. So it was funny, because we were on, I was on a
podcast, and he paused, and he just, he showed a he showed an
ad for them, and I said, you know, what's so interesting is
that the case, you know, all these testimonials that you
picked, all of them talk about kind of the reporting and all of
that. And I'm sure it's very tempting to say, or our
reporting is so much better, but this is one of those places
where they can stand out. Because clearly what's important
to the folks that they're talking to is visibility, right?
And the more that you can say like, the greater visibility you
have into what's working and what's not, the better you can
manage your social media platforms saying something like
that, where someone's like, Well, that's true if, yeah, the
better I can see things, the better decisions I can make.
Then all of a sudden you've supplanted anything else that
says what you know. Instead of making it about this program
versus that program, you're like, Well, now you've made it
so that visibility means everything for my
Ian Altman: clients with often find is okay. So if I said to
you, oh, here's a better way to do it, the client's gonna say,
now we wouldn't want to do that. If you say, Well, it's
interesting, because people used to do this now find that this is
working better. So how do you think that would be different
for you guys? It'd probably be the same for us. Okay? And now
it became their idea, the people you're talking about in the
social media marketing company, yeah, I think the notion for
them of being able to say, for example, so that visibility is
important, but if they if their messaging was almost talking
more to the problems of other people, and say, you know, a lot
of times we had clients who said, in the past, the people
they worked with, they didn't have visibility into what was
going on, And without that visibility, by the time they
realized something was or wasn't working, they had wasted a lot
of money on it. So we've changed that to give instant visibility
so they can pivot as soon as they start seeing results. How
would you guys use that? Now the client goes, Oh, if I had that,
I would do X, Y and Z. And now it's like, well, forget about
the company I was working with because I had that same problem.
You know, we often say that people are highly attuned to the
symptoms they're experiencing. They just don't know what the
what the condition is that's causing it, or how to treat it,
but they know what the superficial symptoms are, and if
we can tap into that, then we get their attention. That's
Tamsen Webster: exactly right. And and by by what I have seen
is that by articulating that in a way that, again, feels
universally true, right, like the better visibility that you
have, the better decisions you can make, right? Like, that's
what we believe at this company, and so that's why we approach it
this way. And that's what we've seen with our clients, is that
when they do X and Y, they see, and that has been just for me in
my work, as I've been working with folks, you know, with this,
with particularly with these Proverbs, but in this approach
of really finding that, you know, I call it a core case like
this, this, what is the underlying argument for what you
are, what you're putting out there, like, Why? Why is it that
you believe this is right, without resorting to features,
you know, flooding them with features, or, like, benefit
bombing or anything like that, like, like, really, like, in a
way that makes intuitive sense to them, what ends up happening
is that your clients end up saying, Ah, yeah, I agree in
principle that why this would work, and with that kind of that
early and really critical, yes, secured, then you can start to
dive into the details of what it looks like in practice, either
for other clients or potentially for them, so that you can start
to go into needs discovery and all of. Yeah,
Ian Altman: yeah. What I love is that you're, you're giving
people insight into how our customers make decisions, yes,
and what they need to believe in order to get behind a decision
so they can own it. And I think that's what, that's what,
obviously, I spend a lot of time with people on which is, look,
if you can find someone who says, Yeah, I have this problem,
and that problem is costing me a lot, and it's really important
for me to solve. Now you have their attention. If someone
says, Well, here's this thing I'd like to do, and you start
talking about your solution, what you fail to recognize is
that they may not really be bought into how big of a deal
this is yet. And so your solution, they're like, well,
that's kind of cool if, if it was a big problem. Now, the
salesperson says, well, but you called me, it must be a big
deal. No, they're just like, huh, I got this issue. These
guys claim to solve it. Let's see what they got and but
they're not bought into it yet. And I think that if we do this
right, we're providing our clients with information. So in
essence, if we ask the right questions, they'll convince us
that things are worth solving. And if we can convince if we can
get them to convince us that it's worth solving, they're also
convincing themselves. And then all of a sudden, now it's like,
Okay, now, now we're on to something where, okay, now we
can say something that they can't unhear. Because mostly
what we're saying is their ideas. We're just kind of
spitting them back to
Tamsen Webster: them, that's right. And I think where it
comes and creates this magic, kind of magic elixir between
them now saying, oh my gosh, I actually have to solve this. And
you saying, and yes, we've got a way to solve it is by finding
that way to again, using something that they already know
to be true to say, All right, so you know, you've got this issue
that you called with right the way we see it is that in order
to solve that, we have to solve this thing first. Because let's
go back to the social media thing, because if you can't
actually see the results of what you're talking about, you can't
solve it. So that's why it's been so important for us to make
sure that when we're working with clients, we're actually
really focused on visibility. This gets really powerful when
you can say, but that's not all right when you can actually add
this other thing that says, because you know, you can have a
whole bunch of visibility. But if, if, if one thing is showing
you things in black and white and the other thing is showing
you in color, then you may not actually be able to match
anything up. That's why, right? We want to make sure that if
we're if we are getting visibility, that we have a clear
view and we're using the same lens on everything that we're
looking at. So that's why, in our comprehensive system, right,
x, y and z. So, and then you can again relate that back to the
client. So it really is this, this piece about, like, going
back into those, into those beliefs, about using the beliefs
as the core data that's supporting your case for why you
and that, I think, is really where this, this approach, goes.
You know, I think speaking about where we end up going wrong
sometimes, is we, we? We want to flood them with all the data and
all the information, all the facts and the figures, but you
know very much along the lines of what you said, they're going
to believe their own experience most. So leverage their
experience, leverage what they know to be true, and explain why
your product works based on their experience. And then
you've got to really that's what becomes very difficult for them
to unhear. When they're like, oh, this solves a problem that I
know I want solves, and the way that it works is based on
principles that make sense to me, that I believe are true. And
from there, it becomes a lot easier for you to start
anchoring the more more practical and tactical pieces of
what you've already presented.
Ian Altman: Yeah, it's a whole notion of, if we ask the right
questions, and we give the client the free will, and the
client makes a decision to do something that makes sense to
them, then it wasn't like we talked them into something that
they're gonna talk themselves out of, right? They talk
themselves into it. And the best way to do that is by us being
slightly skeptical. That says, Are you sure this is worth
solving? Like, is this am I missing something? And then they
either say, no, no, it is. You don't understand. But if we say,
Wow, that's probably a really big deal, usually the client
goes, yeah, it's not such a big deal, even if it is because they
feel pressure from someone else. I used to do this exercise with
people pre covid That now is less popular to do, which is I
would have people put their hands palm to palm against
someone else. And I gave instruction cards, and half of
them said to gently push against the other person. And half them
said, push slightly, and then slowly, draw your hands away
from the other people. Yeah. And if you looked in the room, you
could not tell the difference of who had which card, because the
people who pushed got resistance, and the people
pulled their hands away, the clients tended to follow. And it
basically came down to it. If you create something of interest
and slowly pull it away, people will want to follow it. If you
have something of interest, but you push, you tend to get
resistance. And this whole idea of being able to say what they
can't unhear as I hear it, is this notion of if we tap into
their own beliefs, if we tap into the stories that they can
that they can believe, if we give them this idea of these
principles that form patterns, all of a sudden, now we've got a
framework that says, Okay, I believe this. This is something
that isn't foreign to me. I can buy into this concept. Am I? Oh,
absolutely, close.
Tamsen Webster: That's 100% it. I mean, the whole philosophy of
the book is saying, well, all right, really what we're trying
to get people is, is to buy in and sales literally buy it,
right? We want them to become emotionally intellectually
invested, so that they put the money behind it. And if we
operate from this understanding that, you know, every every
decision like that, every choice, every Yes, is the
product of an argument, then we need to make sure that we're
supplying that argument, and if the arguments we agree with are
based on on what on the beliefs we already have, then the whole
philosophy of the book is really what it comes down to. It is
that if we're trying to build buy in, we need to be building
these arguments that are based on what people already want,
already believe. So I think where you know you I mean, I've
always loved so much your approach, and I really love
that, that that visual of, if you give them something
interesting, they'll follow. What this book really does is
say, make sure that whatever they followed will they will
continue to follow. Because, as you also pointed out, there are
those times where people will say yes, either to get you to
stop talking, or because they don't want to lose face. And
there are some principles in the book that speak to that. So one
of them, the fourth one, is that identity is the greatest
influencer. And what I mean, and what I'm talking about there, is
that one of the most reliable desires that all humans have is
to be seen as smart, capable and good. They may not believe that
they are, though many do, but they really want to be seen that
way. They want to be seen as smart, capable and good and long
term, that desire will override anything else, which is why, if
we make someone feel stupid for something that they've done in
the past, if we are using, if we are introducing pain into the
initial sales discussion to get them to act quickly, and yet,
what they stop and think about it, they're like, oh, actually
no, I am too smart, capable of a good person to have done that,
then we may get the initial movement, but it will not be an
initial movement that stays that way, because that desire to be
seen as smart, capable and good, again, not by you the
salesperson, but by the people they have to see every day, is
going to take over. And so it's, it's, it's really just asking
people to think beyond that first moment. And it's and great
salespeople already know this. It was one of the reasons why I
was so delighted that Matthew Dixon, the co author the
Challenger sale, gave me my cover blurb for it. Because, in
a lot of ways, you know, the whole idea of challenging what
people's beliefs is about is useful, if, right, if, if, if
we're doing it in a way that helps them validate their smart,
capable and goodness, and doesn't make it conditional,
which is what I think a lot of times we, perhaps
unintentionally, do, while saying, Well, you will be smart,
capable and good if you make this decision rather than you
are. And there's why this decision makes sense.
Ian Altman: Yeah, we often teach this notion that the reason why
people often stick with an existing vendor, even if they've
messed up, and even if the new vendor comes in and shows how
they're gonna be better, is because one, they have to fire
the vendor they liked enough to hire to begin with, yes. And
two, they have to acknowledge that maybe they made a mistake,
and most humans don't want to do either. So they go back to their
existing vendor and say, Hey, these other guys said that we
should be doing it this way. So why don't you take a look? And
you're like, why did they not switch to us? And it's because
we made them feel badly. If instead, you say, look, these
guys were probably the best vendor to pick at the time. And
what some people found is that just they've gotten so
sophisticated as a company that those vendors can't service them
anymore. You think that's possible with you? Oh yeah,
that's probably true. Now it's like, I didn't make a mistake.
It's that the other vendor can no longer support me, and
that's, that's what's happened. So
Tamsen Webster: validate that, validate that original choice,
because then oftentimes it'll also reveal something that they
value and they don't want to lose. And so if there's a way
that you can build whatever they are, you know what they don't
want to lose, make sure that you are emphasizing how that is
still present in the switch. That can help too.
Ian Altman: That's awesome. So where do people get the book,
aside from everywhere, and where do they connect with you and
learn more about what you're doing? Yeah.
Tamsen Webster: So they can get the book. The easiest way to
remember it is little changebook.com where they can
get all sorts of aspects of it, because sometimes people don't
remember say what they can't done here, I know irony, but
little changebook.com and to find out and more along these
lines of thinking, I recently founded the message design
institute. So message design institute.com. Will take you to
all things persuasive. Message design,
Ian Altman: listen. Message design, I get, I still refer to
you as the message whisperer, because I work that's I feel
like that notion, that notion of, just like coming up with
stuff that sticks, is is incredibly valuable. So thanks
for sharing this. I can't wait to read the book and and I'm
sure our listeners will love it as well. If it's, if it's half
as good as find your red thread, then I guess find your red
thread would be twice as good as this. That's not the right
that's not the right example. But if it's, but if it's, if
it's half as good, it's still going to be amazing. So, and I'm
sure it's even better. So thanks so much for joining me. Thank
Tamsen Webster: you so much. Ian, you.