If you are at the same level, uh, you know, you're seeing your counterparts, you've been given a role. You're making half the money that they're making your, or maybe you're making the same money, but you're given half the budget that they're given, but you're expected to produce at the same level that they are producing. You're setting me up for failure. And you're doing it based on it's intersectionality. You're, you're looking at me as a woman, you're looking at me as a woman of color. And you're looking at, and you're looking at these things as weaknesses when actually you should be looking at them as strengths.

We'll discuss race and how it plays a factor and how we didn't even talk about this topic because we were afraid. A

Black

Executive Perspective. Welcome to a Black Executive Perspective podcast, a safe space where we discuss all matters related to race, especially race in corporate America. I'm your host, Tony Tidbit. So first we want to thank W. W. N. H. U. 88. 7 on the Richter dial. We're here in their podcast room at the University of New Haven. So really appreciate being here their hospitality And really love the love that they share with a black executive perspective podcast. So thank you WNHU and then also don't forget to check out our partners CODE M magazine whose mission is saving the black family By first saving the black man, check them out at CodeMMagazine. com. So, The significant yet often overlooked challenges faced by black women ascending to leadership roles can undermine their authority and effectiveness. Despite breaking through glass ceilings, these leaders encounter unique hurdles. Today's guest, Sonja Hayes McNaughton, founder and CEO of Discovering Eden, will delve into these issues and explore potential solutions. To overcome them. Sonia Hayes McNaughton. Welcome to a Black Executive Perspective.

Thank you so much for having me, Tony. Happy to be here.

I'm so glad you're here. And, you know, as you guys know, we're in again, uh, the University of New Haven podcast studio, Sonia came all the way down here from New Jersey. She's all, look at her. She's all dolled up. She's ready to be able to come and talk about a very important topic. That's not spoken a lot about, so I can't wait to hear her expertise. And we're going to dive into, you know, the challenges black women leaders face and how to overcome them. But first we want to learn a little bit more about Sonia. So Sonia, tell us a little bit about your background.

Sure. Um, I, I'll start, I guess with my, Oh, I'm from New York. I am in New York at heart. I live in New Jersey. Now, like you said, I am a first generation, um, Belizean American. My family is from Belize and, um, I'm the youngest of four. Um, And, uh, I'm now the mother of three. Wow. Three big kids and I have a wonderful husband as well. And I have had a, um, I won't use the word illustrious, but I've had a blessed career in, um, marketing. It's okay to say illustrious.

So we don't, we don't, we don't build ourselves up enough. That's true. You're right about that. It's all good.

You're right about that. I've had a really I've had a lustrous career in marketing and, um, my background is I have a degree in undergraduate undergraduate degree in organizational management and a graduate degree in strategic leadership and communications, which kind of, um, it's a twofold. It segwayed me into marketing, but it's also segwayed me into having my own in my own company for corporate training for executive leadership for women.

That's that is awesome. Great background. You know, I love that. So tell us a little bit about Discovering Eden your company.

I'm sure Discovering Eden is um, I like to consider us, uh change agents We are all about empowering high achieving high performing women of color. Actually women

overall

But we do place a heavy emphasis on women of color, uh, and we just prepare them, uh, with the proper tools, whether it's networking, uh, community, uh, of like minded individuals, programs, executive leadership. If you are, uh, at executive level, maybe if you are, you know. In the C suite, and you're leading an enterprise, and you need to have a better understanding of what it truly means to embrace DEI uh, we, we have problems for that. And then we also have programs just for, uh, you know, women who are trying to. Uh, facilitate or plan out their trajectory for their career in leadership, rather. And so you can be in midline management or you can be in senior management, but it's really helping them with their professional development skills, whether that's, you know, soft skills, some technical skills, or even things like, um, uh, imposter syndrome. You know, training on that. So if you're in midline management, we have programs that will help you kind of navigate imposter syndrome, or if you need executive presence, but, you know, reinforcements or how to have influence in the workplace, or if you need just some training. Just to have a board seat if you want to join board. So we have a number of different programs, workshops, webinars, and we also have a curated library where you can just find resources, whether it's case studies or just other thought leadership pieces that you could use to glean from and use for best practices or just to enhance your. You know, your professional development.

Wow. I mean, that's insane. There's a lot of stuff that you end up helping leaders overcome. And so real quick, what, what made you want to start your own business?

I, I spent About 20 years in corporate America. And like I said, it's been illustrious. I was blessed, but I also found that there were some, um, there were some, I don't need to reward glitches, but there were some, there were some moments that I felt I was at a disadvantage. So, um, and I, and I, and I feel like some of that was due to not only my gender, but obviously to my, you know, the fact that I'm a minority woman. Right. And so, uh, you know, after I, after I. 20 years in the business. I then decided I wanted to help other women who might be struggling in the same way that I did. Right. So when I say struggle, I mean, you know, things that may have taken me 15 years to achieve. I feel like I might've been able to achieve that maybe in seven years. And so if I would have done things differently, or if I had the advocates in place or something of that nature, as I want to be that kind of a servant leader. You know, to help others to really get to where they're trying to go faster and, um, and, and, and smoother. It was complicated.

I love it. I love it. And that's what we need more of serving leaders, right? That's the key phrase that you said is servant leaders. And I don't think that a lot of. Leaders know what really being a leader is. It's not a title. Uh, it's about being a servant and serving others. So we're going to definitely get into that. So my girl seemed like number one, I'm excited because we see what we got the right person here to talk about this topic, right? So this is awesome, right? So you're ready to talk about it. All right, let's talk about it. All right. So now listen, before we get into the deep end of the pool, all right, you didn't get to where you are just overnight. Tell us a little bit about the influence of your family, your early life, you know, and how that shaped you to where you are today.

So yeah, I come from a strong Christian faith family, my parents. And so if anything, um, I think that, you know, that has taught me about dedication and loyalty, commitment. Um, serving others. So those are, are, are all values that were embedded in me. And I think the other thing is that my parents coming from another country and you have that American dream and you get here, you want to get that good job and stick with it for 35 years and get the package and retire. And, you know, so that lends itself to the commitment that I spoke about. Um, it does not lend itself to entrepreneurship, but it did, um, instill those good hardcore values in me that take you far, whether you were an entrepreneur or just, you know, working for another corporation. So I think that's how my family kind of my upbringing played into it.

Yeah, it seems like the, the, the discipline of hard work, right? Even though it wasn't about entrepreneurship, it was still about getting up every morning. Yeah. Bring in it every day, regardless of how you felt, regardless of what the circumstances said, regardless, you had to do that. So if I'm hearing you correctly, that is like the root of one of the things that your parents basically provided you. Is that correct?

It absolutely is. And, and, I mean, just An example, when my father retired and they gave him his file, I think he had like over 200 and something, um, vacation days and sick time that he never took, right? That is, that's dedication. Right. So, we, we were, that was instilled. Hard work, do what you have to do, be a person of your word. And, um, I mean, those are just, they, they, they don't get old. Those values just don't get old.

They're the fundamentals of life, right? And if you follow the fundamentals, Guess what? They don't fail, right? They'll pass the centuries of time. Yep. So based on that, tell us a little bit about your first Racial turning point. Oh,

I remember. And then there have been a few, but the, the first one, it was in 2001. I was in a meeting and, uh, it was some, so some, some of us were in the meeting and physically, and then there was some on the conference line, conference line. And one gentleman that was online, I didn't know him personally, but I had a feeling that he was a man of color. On. On the, um, yeah, on the call, someone referenced him with the N word, right?

So let me just back up. Yeah. Conference call. Yeah. At work.

And I'm making a mistake. He was not on the call. They referenced him, but he was not on. So they

were

talking about him. About him.

And he

wasn't on the call. He wasn't on the call. And then they use the N word. But the people that were on the call did not know that I was in The room I was the only black person in the room. So they're under the assumption. I'm assumed, you know that that there is it's just there's no minorities in the room so they can say this word freely, right? This

is before zoom. Oh, yeah, it's before team. Right? So it's just a regular speaker phone. Yeah, people talking. And they didn't know you were in the room. So what happened?

And so they used the word, I thought I heard it, but part of me was, I must have misheard that couldn't have been what it was, but I knew what it was because immediately after the meeting was over, uh, two of the managers scoped me up and they took me in our office and they wanted to explain that this is not the typical way that business is done. You know, they can't believe that this was said and, and they wanted to kind of scoop it under the rug. I allowed that to happen. Right? You know, it was very early in my career. I was stunned that that had happened in a corporate working, you know, here are things when you're in school, but I didn't know how to respond to it. Um, and they, you know, they apologized profusely but it left a stench. It lingered.

How did that make you feel? Even though that was your first experience in corporate America?

It made me feel different And I already knew I was different, but it made me and it definitely confirmed for me that this gentleman was a man of color and it made me feel a little bit confused because It perplexed. I did not know how I didn't know how what the right way was to just I felt scared to speak up about it

or

challenge it.

I

let them apologize. And I left it alone. In hindsight, I could have gone to human resources, I could have taken it to a higher level, I could have done, I could have amplified my voice more to, you know, bring some awareness to because that shouldn't be happening. But I didn't do that. But it's, you know, what was the lesson in it? I learned in that. That's one of the learn, one of the learning, learning lessons that you have to use your voice or else you're perpetuating, your silence can be, can perpetuate this type of behavior.

Right. Did you, in that situation, well, at that company, did you, um, because obviously this ain't the first time they did that. No. Right. So did you see any more of that while you were there?

I personally. Maybe covertly, you know, um, not the way that that had happened. I think they were very careful with me after that. Very, very well politically correct. So I did not experience that afterwards, but I, you know, you see micro aggressions and other ways, but I honestly, I feel like that company does stand by, the company does stand by, you know, being. You know, they're renowned, they're global, they're, they're a good organization. I don't think that that's how they were operating maybe at that level, but, um, it got murky.

Yeah, so you mind if I, um, you mind if I push back on that a little bit? Um, and I know what you mean saying that they're a globally known organization, that'll make them a great organization. If they can use racial epithets. Regarding their employees and nobody's held accountable. Okay, accountable. They ushered you to the side and tried to get you to sweep it under the rug. Right? Did that person get fired? No. Did that person, you see my point here? So that to me, they're not reputable. Okay? They're doing what most companies do in these situations. And, you know, at the end of the day, that's why we have this podcast to talk about these things and make people aware because a lot of times people are not, they don't recognize these things go on. And then when they hear, you know, African American or people of color speak up, they're like, Oh, they whinning it. They're complaining. They're this and not, because if we all was speaking up, And this is one of the learning lessons that you said, right? Yeah. Right. That you learned. I should have said something, I should have went to hr, I should have did this, I should have did that. If everybody was doing that consistently, then there'll be on notice and you would, you wouldn't see a lot of these things and you'd be training in all different type of things.

And I need, and I need to, and I need to own where my responsibility lied with that. Right. I, I think because I, it was very early in my career, I was very, very young. You are so happy to have the opportunity you almost, you almost yourself feel like you don't, you may not belong there, you know, because this is, this is the way the world right this is how you're, you know, people think or the, the, the oppression that that has kind of grown up with us or, or it's been forced upon us, I would say. Um, so. That I want to give myself the grace that little bit of grace and say I think it was my youth at my inexperience Yeah, so so there's no you know,

this is not this is not about you. All right, it's not about holding you accountable, right? One thing I want to, I want to jump on before we go, um, to somewhere else is that when you took that job, were you thinking about race when you, when you walked in the door? Not at all. Not at all, right? You didn't come in with a chip on your shoulder saying, you know, I hope they, you know, don't beat me up or I hope they, you know, accept me. You came in to do a job. Yep. Right. So that race was the furthest thing from your mind. Right. Then all of a sudden the world Reminded you about race. Is that correct? You know ugly way to use the n word. That's an ugly way to exactly exactly, right? So speaking of that, let's let's let's jettison a little bit right because you know black women leaders Okay, and you know at the end of the day, I don't think everybody understands what intersectionality means You Okay. Um, you know, to be fair, I, I didn't know what it means to like a year or two ago. Right. And, and then once you hear it, it makes sense. Right. And so can you speak to a little bit about intersectionality and then talk a little bit about how that affects, uh, the female black leader in corporate America?

So, intersectionality has existed forever, but the term probably was not coined until more recently. And it really just means that there are more layers to this, the identity of the person. So, for me, um, I am a woman, and I am a trans woman. Woman of color so that's just two things right we could layer in a things like denomination or All the things that describes not single access everything they describe that just that that I didn't you know, I didn't identify who you are so the way that I think it can be a disadvantage for you in the workplace is We tend to get marginalized or they want us to kind of conform. Into, um, stereotypes, narrow, narrow stereotypes, right. Stereotypes that they have created for us, right. I hate the stereotype, but it, it, it. It's always out there. The end. If you speak up, you're an angry black woman, black man, too. Well, I guess, but no, no, no, no. I'm not.

But no, no, you're 100 percent right, right?

But does that happen? Not been a tons of conference rooms and meetings where there are tons of women or white women or men. Go ahead. Keep

talking. Don't stop now. Speak it up. Speak up. They're running. They're running the conference room. They're the leader, right? And to be fair, in my opinion, they did nothing wrong.

Okay, they didn't. They didn't, right? Some of them are admired or revered or, you know, they're, you know, strong and they assert their authority the right way.

But then when a black woman does it, what? We are angry.

Okay? We are angry. And um, and I'm not saying that we aren't sometimes. Maybe we are. But that doesn't define who we are. We don't get to be called every time we have, every time we challenge you. Doesn't make us an angry black women.

Yeah, and I would say this too. I don't so, you know, and I hear you a point where you say maybe we are but I don't that's not it's not that okay at the end of the day. Um, it's a stereotype to diminish people of color. Right. Women, um, to, uh, knock their leadership abilities. If the same person, um, that was white said the exact same thing with the same type of passion, same type of level of, of, of, of, of, from a vocal audio standpoint, same type of level to your point, they'd be revealed. She ain't taking no junk today, or you don't want to play with, you know, a double way because when he, you better get it done. Right. Those things are like great leaders. When a woman, a black woman, person of color says that they're angry, they're aggressive. Okay, there we because they want us to be docile. Yes. Okay, because we should just be happy that we're here. Exactly. Speak to so so go further on to the intersectionality and how it affects. Women of color,

you know, there's a number of things that can demean your, your, your self esteem. Um, if you are at the same level, uh, you know, when you're seeing your counterparts, you've been given a role, you're making half the money that they're making your, or maybe you're making the same money, but you're given half the budget that they're given, but you're expected to produce at the same level that they are producing. You're setting me up for failure. You know, and, and you're doing it based on, it's intersectionality, you're, you're looking at me as a woman, you're looking at me as a woman of color, you're looking at, and you're looking at these things as weaknesses, when actually you should be looking at them as strengths, right? You should be embracing the differences and that's what diversity is about. So, I think these are, those are just, A few things, there's several things, but those are just a few things that really kind of ruffles my feathers, you know, because I've been in that position before. I've been in a position where, you know, you want me to produce how many commercials, and you, my budget is fixed. You know, 500, 000. How am I supposed to do that? And then, then I'm supposed to, you know, well, these are the KPIs we have to measure, make sure that everything's doing well. There's no, you're almost like playing with my career, playing with my job. And I know that there is more to this than just the fact that there's, there's not enough budget, because why does my counterpart have 2 million in their budget or 3 million in their budget? And, and then there's no, there is no, if There is no, I'll use the word grace again. There is no grace, um, based on the disparity of the budgets. There's no grace at all. You just, you didn't perform as well.

So, so, cause I want to make sure we're clear. So back up a little bit. Um, so when you ran into that situation where your budget is less than your counterpart, and I would imagine you, you push back and say, Hey, Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. What was the reason? Did they give you any type of reason, anything like that?

You know, I, and I'll be very, in, in that situation, I have been told before, make it happen. There's no, no, this is, this is, this is all there is to give, make it happen. Or, um, we had to take from your budget to, you know, there's another initiative that's coming up that we have to allocate for.

Right,

but you still need, need to make it happen. So they still want you to perform at a high level. They still want you to perform at a high. level

then when you said grace, they don't give you any grace specifically. What do you mean

when I say grace? Meaning if you're giving me less of a budget, then, then I, I feel like the, the expectations should be a KPI should be lower. Based

on the budget based

on the budget. So if you're not doing that, that is setting me up for failure You want me to take money in my own pocket? That's not gonna happen. So there's no other way around it You know How am I supposed to? To accomplish these things that you're asking me to accomplish if you're not giving me the resources and the tools that I need to do It

so when you being a leader being in that situation Do you leave work at work. Or do you carry that at home as well?

I try my best not to carry to carry work at home. I don't like to talk about work. I mean, Discovering Eden it was different when I was a corporate America. No,

no, no. That's your baby. That's my baby.

Um, I tried not to do that, but I, I mean, to be quite honest, When it, when it, when situations like that, it, it, it flows, it, it becomes more than just, this is just a work issue. This becomes almost personal. So

do, so, so that's the next step. Go, keep going.

Right. So when it becomes personal, then I, then I am carrying it home because I'm feeling, undervalued. I'm feeling, um, I'm mostly insignificant, but I, but I'm feeling, um, unworthy of the fight, right? So my boss should be able to fight for more money for me if he wants to do that, right? He doesn't want to ruffle feathers. So those are the things that kind of seep into a woman of color that she takes home at night that she's sleeping. And these are the ruminating thoughts that are coming back. How am I going to accomplish this? How am I going to do this to, you know, how am I going to make this happen? You don't want to fail. That's not what you want to do, even though you know that you've been given a card that is hard to, a hand that's hard to win, but you're still trying. And you know, that's been our

identity since we've come here to the United States.

We're

good at

it. We've become good at it. We've

become good at it, right? It's overcoming with nothing.

Yes.

Right? And turning water into wine and stuff to that nature, right? But at the end of the day, that doesn't matter, okay? At the end of the day, So think about it for a second. I want to hear your thoughts on this. Um, how, so, um, if I was hiring you, right, to be my SVP or CRO or chief marketing officer, what it may be, how can I get the best out of you? What do I need to do to get the best out of you?

You need to support, you need to equip me with the essentials, right? When I say essentials, I mean, I'm taking into consideration that we may not always be able to get everything that we want, right? There may not be enough budget for that, but then there's the essentials, right? So we need manpower. I need a team. I need you. Are you going to give me a headcount? That's one. Are you going to give me a suitable budget for what we are expecting? Forecasting. Are you going to give me autonomy? Right? Because then there's this illusion of power, right? We think we have power. We've been given this title, but it's a mirage.

Right. So, so in other words, and you tell me because I think I know what you're saying. Number one, you need to support me. Yes, you need to have my back. You need to empower me. Let me make the decisions. Let me do what I feel best, right? But I feel what I think is best you unleash me and you have my back and you support me, right? I have

one more go ahead and you need to nurture me, right? So my career didn't stop here. You know, you need to you need to nurture you need to foster an environment. That's all about continued learning. Um, and that doesn't happen all the time for women in general, but for women of color, we don't get those opportunities all the time. So, if you, if you are doing all those things, you are setting me up for success.

Right. So, going back to your point, back to the budget thing, right? When you didn't, when you didn't feel that you were being supported, that they didn't have your back, that they wasn't empowering you, that they wasn't nurturing you, Was that company getting the best individual? That they could have gotten. You're still gonna bring it anyway. Right.

No, they weren't. Right. Right. Right. Right.

You're still gonna bring it anyway. Right. But you're bringing it with, with, with a lot of baggage here because you're thinking as you coming in, you're gonna, we, like I said earlier, we, we turn water into wine. All right. But at the end of the day, if you want to unleash me and where I can be an asset, Okay. a major asset for the organization, right? These are the things that you need to bring to the table to support me as a black woman leader. And by doing that, guess what? Your organization, your department, whatever the case may be, I'm going to tell you, I'm going to take it to a whole nother level. Is that correct? Did I make that up? That

is absolutely correct. And, and, and, and the, what are the repercussions of not equipping your, your, your, they're going to bring it and do their best. But get burnt out and then where does that you know, then there's then you're talking about morale and productivity goes down all these things start to happen after Where they leave you get burnt on you leave but when you when you give them what they need you have got You've got a devoted Employee there that is going to work their hardest. You're going to get a lot of productivity. You're going to get a leader that is inspiring their team. You will have a leader that is developing leaders because leaders should develop leaders. And at the end of the day, it is going to benefit your company so much more if you would just factor all of the pieces in them that your leader needs to succeed and to be successful. And it's that simple. I think.

No, you're a hundred percent. Right, right. Um, Let me ask you this. You said earlier about the company that you were working with when your first racial turning point happened. Um, you said you were the only person in the room. You probably wasn't a leader at that point. Right? But let me ask you this. Have you been in organizations where you were the only. You know, person of color from a leadership standpoint. Okay. So how did that make you feel and how did that affect you? Knowing that you're the only one they hired you. You don't see anybody that look like you. Yeah. Okay How did that affect you in terms of navigating and being effective at that organization?

and So that's tokenism right there, right? And so you can feel that that's almost palpable. You know, you, you know, that you, you, you're doing your work with the mindset that you are just filling a quota. All right. And that's how I felt most often that I'm, I am here. I don't know if my work is truly valued as much as it is needed to check the box.

Uh, and that's, that's, that's,

that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's Um, that's fake.

So it's definitely fake, right? So you just said something. You said tokenism. 100%. You felt, you felt like I'm just fulfilling a quota. Right? So, which makes sense. How did your fellow employees see you?

What, you mean my counterparts? Your

counterparts, I'm sorry, not employees, your counterparts.

Um, I think, I think they saw me. I think they saw me as a token. I mean, I'm just going to be honest. No, but, go ahead. I think that they did and the reason why, one of the reasons why I think so is because one of the, as the only, as the only person of color, it's very isolating. You feel alone, right? So, just like when you have an issue on the job and you can, you know, talk with your cohorts about it and you, I don't have that experience. Um, So the relationship, the camaraderie is not the same, um, and those, those nuances it's noticed.

It's,

it's still, it's just, we're not operating. There's not a synergy. So it affects in so many different ways. So they definitely think I, that I, and I've been on teams where they may have been other, one other woman, most times, It's just two women and I'm probably always the only woman of color. And um, but you know it's a mixed bag, right? Because as a woman of color you almost feel like, like, I made it. You know, like I'll just take it for the sake of taking it. Because, because, this is, you know, this is how you kind of go into, you don't know if the opportunity will present itself again.

Mm hmm.

So I say that to say when you are nurturing your employee, employee, and they're getting the right professional development and they're, you know, uh, learning how to navigate, navigate issues like imposter syndrome or inadequacy or whatever it may be. They're, they're, they're able to deal with those feelings, with those emotions, you know, um, and, and maybe it would create better synergy, or maybe, you know, it could, it could lend itself to building a better team. Right. But, um, most women of color do not have those resources.

And so one of the things when we talked about the description of this episode is that how black women leaders are undermined, okay? So if you are the only black leader, if you feel that you're a token, and then your counterparts feel that you're a token, do they think you really got the job because you're qualified? That you really, you have a, you bring an expertise to the table, that you bring a certain perspective that they wouldn't have, or do you think that they figure you only got the job because you were black?

That's exactly what they think. And they demonstrate that, right? Because in, in those positions, I felt many times as though you said undermined, right? Opinion being dismissed or

we say opinion being dismissed. Like what do you mean

like if we're in a conference room and we're brainstorming and everyone is giving their suggestion and my suggestion might be very valid, but it may take a couple of people to remind them. Well, that actually was a good idea. Let's listen to it again. So it takes so much time with that. So those they know why you're there and and it was several times where I was even more qualified. Or had better credentials. And It's that, it's that, it's that, um, that stench. No,

no, no, no. You smell it. I've been in situations like that. You smell it, right? You see it. You see how you're, they're tuning you out. Yeah. Okay. You be your ideas and stuff don't matter as much, right? Your thoughts and stuff don't matter as much. And then. But that undermines your leadership. If, here's the thing, if, and, and let me ask you this. Yeah. When you were in a leader leadership position, you had a team Mm-Hmm. is that correct? Mm-Hmm. So that's where it does it. Go ahead. Talk to us a little bit about that. How does this affect you and the team?

It it, it can, because now when you're leading a team and you're expecting your team to respect you, right. You know, not only respect you, but you know, obviously, you know, you know, follow. Instruction, you know, produce, but they can pick up on, they start to pick up. Now, I have not had experiences where they have adapted that attitude and treated me differently because I always kept a really good

relationship with them.

Always did that. But I have had moments where they have come to me and said, This is not right. Why is such and such team doing this? And, you know what I mean? So it's obvious. And, and, I've had, I've had team members come to me that are not. Minority. Yeah, it doesn't matter. They see it. They see it. They see it out,

right? And they call it out and they see the differences, right? But again, we talk it undermined. Yeah. So how is that making you an effective leader? Right. Right. When you have all these different type of things, um, that happen and they don't happen in the vacuum, everybody sees them, right? And then talk a little bit about the microaggressions, right? The little subtle ways. I mean, let's be honest. And when you're on that call, You know, it's a long time ago, right? That wasn't subtle. That wasn't subtle, right? That was flat out, right? But talk a little bit about some of the microaggressions that you, you have experienced as a black woman leader.

I think, you know, microaggressions that I've experienced might be just comments about style, um, or comments about, uh, and not even just style, like when I was taking my son to look at HBCUs. And The first reaction sometimes when you tell certain people HP's first, they don't know what it is sometimes you gotta break it down But then when you do break it down It's almost like, I don't know why, you know, like disqualifying the, the, the, the validity of the school. So, and those are, you know, those are, those are more annoying than anything, but I, I think the more microaggressions is, is when people touch your hair, they always talk about that. So they touch

your hair and stuff like that. I

have definitely had that. And that, it wasn't this hair either. It was, you know, like corporate hair, like straight corporate.

Yeah. Yeah. So it, it just. Yeah, they touch your hair. Doesn't matter which, what type of hairstyle you have.

No. People

wanna touch your hair.

I mean, I could give the benefit of the doubt and say, you know, they just thought it was lovely. I don't know. But it's like, you're not supposed to do that. You know? It's, it's, it's inappropriate. Have you touch another

woman's hair, a white woman's hair at all? I don't

think so. Okay. Okay. Maybe my girlfriend, you know. Okay. Not my, but not

just somebody coming outta the blue. You look so great. And they wanna, yeah. Yeah.

No, I, I do not think so. Um. It's, it's, it's some things, it's hard to define sometimes what you would consider to be micro and what you consider to be a macroaggression. Right? Because some of them can kind of like cross the line or overlap.

Can you, can you define both?

Yeah, so a macro, I think a macro. Okay, so the instance that happened with me that we just talked about when they said, uh, when they used the N word. That is a macro to me. But if they didn't know that I was in the room and it was, would that be also considered like a microaggression? No. I think the, I

think the micro is the stuff, uh, why your son going to an HBCU or touching your hair and stuff of that nature.

And I think maybe macro would be counterparts to question, why did you get so much money for that budget? Or why are you getting another headcount? Why are you getting another full time employee? And then they will actually go question and go to the boss and say, I don't understand why is Sony getting another F. T. E. I need more help on my team. So those are more, and I say that that to me is a macro question because I don't see you doing that to the other to the other are other team members who don't who don't look like me. Right. I do not see that. And They can be very vocal about it too. They will make a big deal, like go to the boss and say like, What's up with this? Yet they're not, they're not angry. They're, they're just voicing their, they're just voicing their opinion. So in other words, They are absolutely angry.

Yeah, but just so I'm clear. In other words, they, they go to push back about, You know, the resources that you may get, right? But if you did that, you would be the angry person. If they did it, it's just a regular conversation.

That's one and two. I think that they're so used to, they're so used to us not getting the resources that when we, when you do get one or two little things, they, How did that happen or why did that happen? I need it. I need an explanation, you know,

you know, one of the things I've always had to deal with, um, you know, it's the mental, uh, challenge when you see things, you feel things, little, little bitty, like little needles. This is hitting you over and over again, right? You see it, you feel it, right? Um, at the same time, I've had some, um, and you spoke to this a minute ago. I had some, you know. People on my team or other leaders come to me like an ally. I like using the word accomplice, right? And say hey, man, how are you doing? Hey, you know that makes me feel a lot better Because I'm not I don't feel like I'm walking through the woods all by myself Have you talked a little bit about have you had different allies or different individuals speak up on your behalf? You know, push back against the status quo regarding some of these issues. Do you mean a minority also, or you just mean in general, I'm talking outside of a person of color. I'm talking to a white person that's really helping champion and they may not be a leader. They could be somebody that's on your team. Like you said earlier,

right. Um, I could have that. And honestly, I've had a boss or two that, um, were, um, Minority as well, but not as minority as me and That may be more say, um Can pass, you know, they can maybe pass. Am I allowed to say that on?

Yeah, so wait, so i'm just being clear here So what are you saying? They're light skinned. They're light skinned or they're dark skinned. What do you mean? So

they're so they are. Um

Hold on a second. You want a black executive perspective podcast? You just speak your mind here

And I, when I say can pass, you know, he can pass, he can, he can kind of, he

can, he can look white. Yeah. And he, he's part of, they feel he's part of their white affiliation. Right. Right.

I should say. And he can fit in there, but he also knows, but he also has, he also knows who he is as well. So he can kind of resonate with what I'm feeling to a certain degree. Right. So he has fought for me before for budgets to the higher up. He has done that in those moments. I have felt like that In an ally, so to speak. Um, I have not had a lot of moments like that, though. I really haven't. I think a lot of times people are, people are about what they're doing. They care about themselves and, you know, what, what they have going on. And they're not always going to be willing to. You know, step up, you know, and if they are, um, your, your counterpart, they're not trying to give up what they have for you, you know? So that's, you know, that's basically why I think I haven't had too many of those experiences, but I did have one or two that were meaningful enough.

So, you know, You think about it and you said illustrious career. Mm-Hmm? Okay. You said illustrious. No, you said it said, you said, can I say it? You know, you said illustrious. I said you can say illustrious. We don't, we don't, we don't build ourselves up. Okay. I did. So, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. You said illustrious, right? And so based on all the things that you've dealt with. Okay, that most people don't know about as being a black woman leader, right? Why do you say illustrious?

I say illustrious because I have worked for the majority of the companies that I've worked or have all been Fortune 50. And As a woman of color to work for these organizations. Um, I think that speaks to volume to my career, um, my credentials, um, and my, you know, my commitment to my work. Um, and I've done some great things, you know, I've done some great things while I was with those organizations, you know, launched the first set of commercials for one of the companies with radio and TV. Um, Help to, you know, rebrand our, you know, look and feel for the kind of a lot of great things that were an undertaking that were successful. And so I say less just for not just for myself and the work that I've done, but also for the institutions that I've been privileged to work for. And that

is awesome. And, you know, at the end of the day, think about what you could have done. Had you been supported, seen as an equal, right? People support you as they would do with any person, right? You've had an illustrious career and still had to deal with all these things. That's, yeah, that's a great point. See my point, here it is. Okay. Yeah. And, and so, so what? She made it so what people deal with. So stop. Alright, stop. Okay. At the end of the day, just getting through the

doors,

she, these thank you. Right. These things that, you know, women of color deal with, black women deal with. Yeah. Yeah. All right. And you know, when we backing up to intersectionality, you know, um, one of the things I had to learn and, and, you know, and look everything you said. Everything I've experienced as a black male in corporate America from tokenism, tokenism to all yards. But here's the difference is that I'm still a male. Okay, which gives me some advantages versus a female. Right. So if you start thinking that's where the intersectionality comes into play. All right. So and then when some of my friends who were, you know, not who were who are, you know, African American leaders, women of color, and they share certain things. And, and I'm like, wow, you know what, I didn't even think I see that. My stuff as a male, but when I hear about the things that our sisters of color go through, I'm like, wow. Right? And so you carry this a lot of, a lot of, a lot of women, black women are carrying a bag on their shoulder. And still bringing it every day. Yes. Right. And can sit here on a black executive perspective and say, I had an illustrious career and trust me, we've got a lot of women leaders come on here and they've said a lot of the same things that you've said. Right. And they got PhDs, they're CEOs, they're chief marketing officers. They got a ton of stuff going on. Right. But that doesn't, uh, the, uh, diminish. What we had to go through what people, not just what you have, what people still have to go through. Right. And this is why we speak up on these things. Speak a little bit. Did you have something you want to say about that? Go ahead.

Well, not necessarily about that, but I was going to say, um, you know, about 10 years ago, uh, with the Sheryl Sandberg, the next came on the scene for the book, Lean In. I don't know that you've heard that she's, she's an executive at, really? So she wrote this book called lean in. Educate me. She wrote it's a great, it's great principles. It's about women, you know, leaning into your voice, finding your voice, being authentic and, and, you know, doing it all, having your career. She worked at Facebook. I forget. She might've been like the chief operating officer of Facebook or something like that. And it went wild. Gotcha. I think she met up with this head talk and it's good principles, but. It's not that that's not the experience for women of color, right? She is speaking from a place of privilege, right? Because she's, I don't know, Ivy League and all these things. Um, she's, she's also speaking from the table. She's already sitting there. You know, she, she has that seat. And women of color, we, we have to come against, you know, we don't have the same education all the time. You know, as some of these. The opportunities advantages to some other women have had. Right. We have education, but it may not be Ivy League. Does that mean that we're not, we cannot be qualified for the position or we're not as great. We don't always have our voice is not always heard because we don't have that seat at the table. And so it just really. It was a eye opening for me, the book. I really, the book was good and it's great principles, but there needs to be the, the, the homegirl version. No, no, no, no, no. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, with more strategies. Yes. To help a woman of color in those, you can't tell us to find our voice because a lot of women of color are using their voice. They're trying to, but then they're labeled angry. It doesn't, you know, it's not a cookie cutter thing, you know, so. We're still trying to find our way. We're making, you know, strides. We are, but there's still a lot of work to be done.

So speaking of work to be done, you know, you, you're, you're the CEO of Discover, uh, Discover Eden, right? And you spoke about a lot of the things that you help, you know, leaders be able to overcome. So talk a little, give us a little, like if you had a magic wand. Yeah. Okay. Sonya's got a magic wand and you can change Okay, or there's a, uh, uh, uh, uh, a woman leader, black woman leader is listening to this podcast or watching this podcast and they're saying, yep, I go through that. I've been through that. What recommendations would you make for them to deal with some of these things in a better, better light? And then more importantly, try to overcome that. And look, there's a big system, but what advice would you give them?

So There's, there's, the word embrace means to literally embrace, to hold on, to take on to. So to take on, embrace diversity, right? So that means, Stop hiring one black person to be the head of DEI and calling that your DEI program.

Right.

Right? Stop asking middle aged white men that have been in their positions for the last 20 years to be the decision makers on how to cultivate and empower their high achieving black women or women of color. There needs to be more representation in those rooms, on those boards, on those committees. That's what I would say is you need to bring those people in so that they can bring more perspectives, right? We don't know what we don't know. Some, you know, some people maybe really don't know how to embrace diversity. We can all learn, you know? And so that's the grace, right? You need a little grace. If you don't know, then Bring the right people in to help you bring in the right programs like Discovering Eden, you know, set it up so that your women that that are on the career path forward have no choice but to go through these programs, you know, that they have to equip themselves with the right, uh, soft skills, technical skills, um, leadership skills, executive presence, all of those things. Get senior leadership to C suite those men in system change management. Training, right? So that they can start to change the way that they manage and implement some bias training,

right? And that's to me one of the, I mean, I've seen them do it at a high level. But I'm talking grassroots at the lower level and it needs to be consistent because just doing one bias training and people don't get it. Right. No, there

needs to be like, you know, some kind of interaction or some kind of, there needs to be KPIs. Like we want to see the, one of the metrics, did everyone take it? What did they learn from it? How do we incorporate these things that we're learning? The team should be operating differently now. You should be leading at a different level. There should be, there should be, um, clear, you know, a clear visibility on the changes or the impact that the programs are making because yeah, we all take those classes that do as a compliance you got to do at the job like every, every, whatever, every couple of months and you got to go through and talk. We do it. But do we really do anything with it?

Right.

You know, so you need good programs. Well,

there's no follow up, right? It needs to be followed. It's a check the box. And

it starts with the top, right? Exactly. The fish rots from the top, somebody told me. It starts from there and it trickles down. If we can get them straight. Then we can start. They can set the standard

exactly. So final thoughts. What do you want to leave the listeners today? You gave some great advice. You gave you gave great examples. You you really elevated a lot of these issues. Um, that women, black women deal with, you know, some final thoughts. What do you want them to know?

Final thoughts. This is a two fold. Equipping, empowering, cultivating, um, high achieving women. It's, it's a, in an organization, it's a twofold exchange. It's, it's just, it's not only for the individual, the company will also benefit from this. So don't shy away from it. This is not something that you're just giving away and you're not going to get back. It's important to put these, these, these tools in place for your, not only for your. Your teams to thrive before the company to grow and and just for just to be progressive

to

be a progressive organization, you know, the DEI has become this buzzword over the last few years and over buzz term. And, um, it needs to be more than that. So, you know, help, help, help, uh, women of color loyal. If you take care of us, We'll take care of you.

That's just the bottom line, right?

This That's the bottom line. We're strong too. We're very strong. We're strong women. We know how to do a lot with not much. So can you imagine what we'll do if you give us everything that we need?

Exactly. So speaking of what, uh, you need, tell us how a Black Executive Perspective Podcast can help you.

How you can help me? Um, you can help me by sharing that my, uh, New LMS, which is a learning management system is about to be launched. We have our own proprietary, uh, SAS product that we've built. It's near completion. And so any new client that, uh, joins discovering Eden, you will have your own portal, you will have direct access, you'll have access to the courses and the programs. And you will also have access to a community of women that are like minded that you can, you know, vibe off of each other, share best practices and, and, and, and share experiences or, or, or. Reach out for solutions and you can also use our, our library, especially curated for women executives that is going to just continue to enlighten you and help you to be better at what you're doing and, and soaring your career. So

that is awesome. So listen, we're definitely going to promote that. We're going to put your website and stuff up on, on our website. So definitely check out discover Eden, you know, especially for those who really want to have some type of, Uh, expert to help them deal with some of their issues, perfect some of the things that they're looking to do to take it to the next level. So you definitely want to reach out to some

programs are, are, are, uh, you know, based on research and case studies and it is, uh, it's, they are, they're rigorous and they are created to be impactful. So,

and I can imagine, I can imagine, especially having, you know, Sonya leading, leading the charge. So we want to thank you for coming on today. A Black Executive Perspective, you know, your insights and thoughts and experiences has really, really, you know, touched me and I'm pretty sure it's touched the audience and, you know, we want to have you come back sometime soon.

Thank you so much for having me.

Thank you, Sonya. Thank you. So I think it's now time for. Tony's tidbit. All right. So the tidbit is as always is based on the conversation that we had today. So the tidbit is in order for us to cultivate black leadership, we must first realize that racism is inherently embedded. In many of our organizations, and you heard a lot about that today with Sonia, um, about some of the issues that she dealt with as being a black leader, not just her, a lot of other people. So we want to thank her for coming on. So I think it's now time for our need to know with Nsenga. Nsenga what do we

need to know? Hi, this is Nsenga Burton bringing you your need to know moment today. And today we're going to be talking about the wonderful DEI, diversity, equity, and inclusion, which is under attack by many, many different factions of our society, um, DEI, which is really about inclusion and belonging and making sure that people who are usually qualified and overly qualified, um, have access to the same, um, Types of jobs, education, you know, various institutions as those who have been part of the ruling class is what we would say in academic setting, but those who have been historically empowered. So, you know, diversity, equity and inclusion is really about historically disenfranchised populations and how to bring them into the fold in a way that is equitable as we try to create a more flexible. Fair and just, or some would say egalitarian society. So it's been really interesting. Um, as of late, the DEI, um, has become sort of a Republican dog whistle, um, and has been presented as something other than the desire to create a more equitable and just society, but it has become a term that is now, um, aligned with being less than, uh, with being, um, Unqualified with being a part of a movement, and this is not true, right? These are just what people are saying and doing in order to take away opportunities from historically disenfranchised populations. Um, and these options that they otherwise would not have, because we do know when these members of historically disenfranchised populations met all the criteria, met all of the qualifications, exceeded those qualifications. They still were not given the nod. They still were not admitted to schools. They still were not given jobs or awarded jobs that they had applied for some weren't even allowed to have interviews. Right? And so all of these things, um, are tied up in diversity, equity and inclusion and why, you know, diversity, equity and inclusion is important. So, an example of what I'm talking about, when we talk about a dog whistle, um, is when you change the meaning of something, so that it becomes, um, you know, It becomes a negative, right? It becomes, uh, something other than what his original intent is. So example, uh, you all have been watching, uh, the unfolding of, or the aftermath of the collapse of the Francis Scott Key Bridge in Baltimore last month. You know, it's in Maryland and, um. You know, it was purely an accident. It's still under investigation, but for all intents and purposes, it was an accident that happened. Uh, in fact, the people who warned, uh, the police, uh, who subsequently died in the accident, the only people to have died in the accident, uh, were, uh, immigrants, right? So, um, and Latinx immigrants, um, who were working. Um, I say all of those things to say, this is an accident that happened. The Mayor of Baltimore is Brandon Scott, a young man. He's 39 years old, native Baltimorean, and the governor of Maryland Wes Moore, uh, again, native Baltimorean, um, African American. Um, and the Port Commissioner is a black woman named Corinthia Barber, again, native Baltimorean. And what happened, uh, or some of the things that you might've seen is, um, people on Twitter saying, oh, the DEI, mayor. Um, this is why this accident happened because they have an unqualified DEI Mayor in place. This is why this accident happened because they have an unqualified DEI port commissioner in place. This is why this accident happened because we have the DEI governor unqualified DEI governor in place. Right? So it's this idea that anything that is diverse, particularly black, right? It's rooted in anti black racism, but anything that is diverse, anything that is black has to be less than an unqualified. Even when the facts state the opposite. And so you have like Phil Lyman, who's a GOP Republican gubernatorial candidate out of Utah, who's saying, you know, calling them the DEIs, right. Um, versus calling them by their names. And so what this does is first of all, it makes people have, um, an incorrect understanding of what DEI is. Right? And maligns and mislabels. This is the 2nd part maligns and mislabels people and what they're doing. 3rd, it dehumanizes whole human beings like Wes Moore and Brandon Scott and Corinthia Barber, uh, it dehumanizes them so that you feel okay about calling them less than or under qualified. Because. You know, you value them less, right? All of those things happen when you use these dog whistle tactics, right? You use these taxes to bring out the conservatives, to bring out the people to criticize, um, who have no real information. Um, and the same thing would have happened had you had Republicans in office at that time. Right. This was an accident was that was unavoidable, um, to a large extent. Um, and then the challenges that were happening, um, have nothing to do with those individuals or their qualifications. So, why would you do that other than to mislead people? So I'm gonna wrap this up, but I just wanted to be clear. Um, that DEI which is actually a positive thing. It's about diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging, creating a sense of belonging so that people can be a part of whatever institution, business, church, educational institution, whatever institution, um, they can be a part of it if they are qualified, if they want to, and then if they do gain admittance. That they are treated fairly and equitably once they are there. That is what diversity equity and inclusion is about. It's not about, you know, giving handouts to people. It's not about putting people in places who are unqualified, even though we've seen a lot of that happening, particularly under this previous administration, national administration, which is why the mail system is in a complete disarray and horribly run currently. But you know, we don't talk about that person. We don't say, Oh, they put another white man in there. So it's going to be terrible because it's ridiculous. That sounds ridiculous. Right? Yeah. Okay. And I know it's not equally yoked. What I am saying is, and it's not an equal argument because of the power dynamics. But what I'm saying to you is DEI is a good thing. DEI is about giving people who are qualified and who have paid their dues and who have done what they needed to do a shot. In a place, often a workplace, often educational institution that they normally would not get the nod for just because they're actually black, or they're actually LatinX, or they're Asian, or they're whatever. Right? They wouldn't get the nod necessarily. So that's what it is about. It's about. Inclusion, right? Not about unqualified people getting jobs they don't deserve and running the country into the ground. And that is your need to know note from Nsenga.

Wow. Thanks Nsenga. That's some great information. Really appreciate it. Can't wait to hear what you have next week. So, I, and for next week, we want you to join another episode of a Black Executive Perspective Podcast where we're gonna basically next week is going to be, oh, hold on, I see, yeah, uh, next week is going to be The Voices of the African Diaspora, Stories Across Continents, so you definitely don't want to miss this, but one of the things that we want you to do Which is very important, is incorporate our motto, LESS, L E S S. Because we're looking to, we're looking to decrease racism, any, any isms. So first, L means learn. You want to educate about other cultures, history, other people. Then once you learn, E stands for empathy. That should give you more, you should be more empathetic to your fellow human beings. And then S stands for share. Share what you learn to others so more people can be educated. And then the final S stands for stop. We want to stop racism, discrimination, wherever it runs up in our face. So when grandma at the Thanksgiving table said something inappropriate, you say, grandma, you can't say that, right? So if everybody's incorporating less, we'll have a fair kind of world. And these are the things that you can put in action. And control. So let's everybody do that. So continue to follow a black executive perspective podcast, wherever you get your podcast. And you can follow us on all our socials on Facebook, LinkedIn, X, uh, uh, Tik TOK and Instagram at ablackexe. So I hope you enjoy our conversation today. The chat, The Illusion of Power-Challenges Faced by Black Women Executives I want to thank our guests, Sonya McNaughton. I want to thank the people behind the glass, AA. And we got Noel all helping it out, making things work. And so we talked about it. We love you. And we're out.

A Black executive Perspective A Black Executive Perspective.