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There is a version of Christ found inside
the Islamic faith written into the Qur'an.

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Muslims will tell you is the same
Jesus that is written about in

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the New Testament, but they don't
call him Jesus, they call him Isa.

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So in this episode, we're going to be
talking about the differences between

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Isa and Jesus, , what they are, why it
matters, and how to discuss this topic

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with any Muslims that you may know.

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You're listening to Base Camp, a
podcast where we equip Christians

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to engage the darkest places and the
least reached people with the gospel.

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My name is Michael Collins.

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In this episode, I sit down with
Jeremy Jenkins, the president and

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founder of All Things All People.

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And we discuss the difference
between Jesus and Isa.

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The idea for this conversation came
from an article that Jeremy wrote

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for the All Things All People blog.

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I'll put a link to that
article in the description.

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The goal is by the end of this
episode, you will have a much better

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understanding of the way people
of the Islamic faith see Christ,

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what some of the main differences are,
and how to best talk about this subject

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with any Muslim people that you may know.

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So let's get right into the episode.

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Mike: you started the last episode asking
me to share the story that was in my

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article, so Jeremy, I'm just going to ask
that you share  the story that was in your

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article that we have on Jesus and Isa.

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Am I saying it right?

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Is it Isa?

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Yeah.

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Jeremy: Yeah.

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Yeah, When I wrote that article,  I I'm
not always the best at titling things

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because if somebody doesn't know that Isa
is the Islamic name for Jesus, then they

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have no idea what that article is about,

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Mike: yeah, I

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Jeremy: so, yeah, so Isa, Isa is the
name that the, the Quran uses to refer to

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Jesus and a lot of people don't know that.

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That Jesus is referenced
a ton in the Quran.

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I mean, he's one of the most
talked about people in the Quran.

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And I was in North Africa sometime
recently, and I was there with a team

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of people and we were working with
some missionaries in North Africa.

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And obviously I can't say where, and   we
had gotten really tired of not being

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able to find people who  speak English.

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And we don't speak any Arabic at all.

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And so we decided to go down to this
touristy area of the city we were in.

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Hoping to find people to speak English.

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And, and of course that works.

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Cause if you've ever been, you've
not been out of the country yet.

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Right.

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Mike: never been outta the country.

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Jeremy: That's going to
be a lot of fun whenever.

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Mike: The summer will be the
first time I'm going to Guatemala

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Jeremy: my goodness.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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Well that, okay.

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That'd be cool.

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Well, and yeah, you'll
experience that there too.

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So  there's not a ton of
English speakers, and so.

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Anytime you get the opportunity to
speak your, your heart language,

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it makes things a lot easier.

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So we went kind of hunting for that.

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The other thing too, is when you're in
a tourist area and you're walking around

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and they can tell you're not from there
and that you're a tourist, they also

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assume you have a pocket full of money
and they want to sell you something.

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And so JR and I were walking and we met
this guy and he started talking to us.

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I think he owned a, he
owned a travel company.

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So he wanted us to take
his tours and all of that.

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Well, I'm like, you know, the guys
that we work with, those of them who've

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traveled with me know that I'm pretty
good at saying no to people who are

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trying to sell us stuff overseas.

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And so we started off just like kind of
really in a friendly way, just saying no

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to this guy, but he was pretty persistent,
but he seemed pretty nice anyway.

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So we just started talking to him
and asking about the company, asking

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about what he provided and Eventually
he kind of figured out like we

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weren't looking to buy anything,
but he was still really friendly.

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Well, J.

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R.

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and I both love coffee, as you
know, and , in a lot of parts of the

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The Middle East specifically like
predominantly   Arab populations.

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They'll have like these coffee shops.

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They call them our was and I
was a HWA and it's outdoors.

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So it's like an outdoor patio and
people will sit,  older men, especially

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during the middle of the day,
we'll sit at these hours for hours

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Mike: eye on us

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Jeremy: is.

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It really, yeah, it really is.

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And but you know, it doesn't bother them.

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It really, it really didn't bother me.

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But yeah, it can be but they'll
sit there and  they'll smoke

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Shisha, which is like hookah.

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Do you know, you know, like and they'll
play chess or backgammon all day.

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And so that's kind of like like I'm built
for that kind of like, not the Shisha,

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not the hookah, but but like sitting and
drinking coffee and playing backgammon

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and chess and talking to old men all
day, like to me, I was sort of like, I

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wanted to sit in that environment, look
for opportunities to talk to people.

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So we asked this guy and, and asked
him, Hey, where's a good ahwa.

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We don't want to go to a touristy place.

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And so he kind of lights up and he's
like, well, Hey, I'll take you to mine.

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I'll take you to the one that I go to.

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And so he walks us, I don't
remember, maybe a quarter mile.

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Kind of in this hidden little alleyway
system, we would have never known to

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go down and he takes us to this, this
Alwa, which is filled with locals,

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which was really my idea of fun.

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I, I, I actively try and avoid
tourists as much as I can

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when I'm doing missions work.

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And so we ended up sitting down.

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Well, he, he's going to walk away and we
Ask him, Hey, would you let us, you know,

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buy you a tea or coffee or something?

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And  and so he sits down
and  we just start talking.

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And for me, I have a really easy time.

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Talking to people of other religions,
partly because I'm super interested

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in them and their faith, but then
also because I teach religions.

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And when you tell somebody that you're
a world religions, like professor or

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teacher I've never really had any like
bad reactions to that, at least not yet.

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And so I told him I was super interested
in Islam, told him I was super interested

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in the culture and all of that.

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And so I was just asking him questions
and everything he was saying.

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Was kind of leading us to the
point where it was just like,

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well, he knew we were Christians.

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We had mentioned that.

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And, and of course he was, he was Muslim.

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I actually asked him, I said, cause I
didn't want to assume even though I knew

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it's just like, Hey, are you Muslim?

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And he smiled and was like, yeah.

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And.

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It seemed like everything he wanted to
talk about was about the similarities

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between Islam and Christianity and
presumably there's, there are a

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lot, you know we believe in one God.

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We believe in an afterlife.

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We believe in a day of judgment.

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We believe that, you know,
submission to God is important.

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Mm-Hmm.

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. A lot of Christians don't know, like
Islam literally just means submission.

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Mm-Hmm.

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and Muslim just means submitted one.

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So our Venn diagram overlaps.

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Mike: Yeah.

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I've heard a lot of
different missionary stories.

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People that were evangelizing
to Islamic people and.

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they said the people that they
were hanging out with told them,

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you're so close to being a Muslim.

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if you were just accept this one thing.

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Jeremy: In fact, what's so funny
because most of my, the first few

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years of my  travel and research
and studying religions, I was

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doing a lot of work in South Asia.

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Mm-Hmm.

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and  Hinduism and Buddhism
and things like that.

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And the worldview does
not overlap hardly at all.

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With groups like that, like there's,
there's hardly any similarities

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at all between what Christians
assumed to be true, believed to

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be true and what  a Hindu does.

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There's, there's really
not that much similarity.

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So when I started, and I'm not, I'm not
an Islamic expert, but  when I started,

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engaging Muslims with the gospel.

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I was like, Oh, this is so much

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Mike: easier.

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Jeremy: You know what I mean?

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Because, because of the same thing,
what you just said is like , they have

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a deep love and reverence for Allah,
which is just the Arabic word for God.

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And they, they believe that Allah is the
same God that the Bible is talking about.

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In fact, most of Islamic history, at least
what Muhammad said was Islamic history

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is, is Jewish and Christian history.

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I mean, and that's why, It is really
easy to talk to Muslims about matters

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of faith because they believe in Adam
and Eve, they believe in Noah, they

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believe in Abraham, they believe in Moses

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Mike: in Noah, believe
Moses um, Somewhat.

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the the, the

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Jeremy: the Quran on top of it.

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Well, somewhat.

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So, yeah, so , I mean, there's a
lot of differences, but  the main

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difference is that they believe, so
if you're familiar with the story of

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Abraham and Isaac,  Abraham has a son.

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Well, before he had
Isaac, he had another son.

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Is this

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Ishmael

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and what Jews and Christians believe is
that Isaac was the promised son and that

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through Isaac seed is the chosen people
of God, which Jews and Christians would

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say in some form or fashion is Israel.

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Muslims would say that.

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Actually,  the chosen people
of God came through Ishmael.

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And in fact, they believe that
Ishmael was the son who was almost

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sacrificed when God provided the Ram.

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And so ultimately they view
themselves as the seed of Ishmael.

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And if you, if you read the
account in Genesis of when.

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When Abraham you know, essentially
banished Hagar and Ishmael, it says that

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he brought them out to the desert and
that Hagar was distraught because her

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son was going to die, Ishmael and God,
and this is in Genesis, God speaks to,

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to Hagar and says, Hey, I I see your son.

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I will not let him die.

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And in fact, he's going to
become a great and mighty people.

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And that's the end of it.

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But when Mohammed says that he began to
receive revelation from Allah through

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the angel Gabriel in a cave outside of
Mecca, what he said was that Jews and

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early Christians actually corrupted.

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What they call the Torah and the Injil.

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Injil is just the Arabic word for gospel.

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And so ultimately what we have is we
have essentially two streams of promise.

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Is Jews and Christians say that
the promise of Abraham came

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through Isaac and Muslims say no.

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In fact, it came through Ishmael.

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And that early Jews and Christians
corrupted, specifically Jews,

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corrupted The old, the Old Testament,
and then the New Testament after it.

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And so we do have a tremendous amount
of similarities, but there are,

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there are these tiny differences
there at the beginning of the

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narratives that, that changed the

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Mike: trajectory of

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everything.

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So do they believe that Jesus is a
descendant of Ishmael or Jesus was.

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still a descendant of Isaac,
but they just still hold him in

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Jeremy: I don't know.

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I don't know.

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I don't know specifically what
they would say about his genealogy.

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They do believe that Jesus and all of the
prophets that came before were actually

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prophets of a law and they hold those
men in high regards, but the difference

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being that they would say that Jesus and
Noah and Moses actually all came Came as

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prophets of Allah spreading the message
of Islam, which is submission to Allah.

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And that  Mohammed brought the
restored revelation of Allah

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in the form of the Quran.

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And, these few key differences that point
Muslims towards a life of submission and

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really, I mean, a works based salvation.

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They wouldn't disagree with that at all.

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Whereas Christians  say, no,
Jesus was the son of God.

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He was God and his death, burial
and resurrection redeemed humanity

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and bought them from their sin.

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Mike: We, will get into maybe more of
those little differences about Christ.

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But back

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to

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You in, this and what

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is it?

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and this awa.

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with your friend and with JR.

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Jeremy: Yeah.

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Mike: You guys go and sit
down and, and then this.

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this

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Jeremy: So what what's funny is
like, it's a beautiful thing because.

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What otherwise can be
like kind of an academic

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conversation,

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like, oh, here's these differences and all
that  they proved to be really important

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because this conversation centers in
on the idea of him saying, well, hey,

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there's actually a lot of similarities.

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Kind of what you said,
like, you guys are just this

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close to being really
good Muslims, you know?

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And  I said, you know, there
are a lot of similarities.

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You're right.

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In fact, we both agree that we're sinful.

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And, and what kind of fall out of this
is this really great evangelistic method.

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I don't know who pioneered it.

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But we call it any three  which is asking.

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This guy, the question, how do you believe
that your sins are going to be forgiven?

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And so he begins to list off the
various things that, that Muslims

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believe, including like the five
pillars, like you have to confess.

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That Allah is the one true God
and Muhammad is his prophet.

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You have to what's called a
zakat, which is like, you have

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to give, you have to be generous.

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You have to fast during Ramadan.

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You have to pray five
times a day called Salat.

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And then at least once in your life,
as you're able, you have to perform a

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pilgrimage to Mecca called the Hajj.

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And there's other things too.

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I mean, the Muslims really are mostly
A devout group of people who place a

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high emphasis on living a good life.

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And so he lists off all these things and.

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He kind of finishes and I said and once
again, this isn't my question, but okay.

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Do you believe then that
your sins are forgiven

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already?

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And he shook his head.

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No, you know, no, I don't , which
is the standard Islamic answer.

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Even Mohammed said that he couldn't be
sure that he had done enough to warrant

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salvation into paradise upon his death.

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And so Muslims really operate
on the sense that no one

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can

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know.

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And I said, okay, so see,
here's the difference then.

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And this is where it's important.

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Like any conversation that you're having
that's evangelistic in nature, even if

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there's a lot of similarities,  sometimes
those can be really helpful to highlight,

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but eventually we have to get to

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the differences.

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And I said, see, here's the difference.

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We believe that our sins
are already forgiven.

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And the way that I believe that
is because of the work of Jesus.

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And I shared kind of an aversion and
this kind of goes along with,  the any

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three method, and maybe we can, we can
link to some, any three resources in

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the podcast notes, but the story we
call it the first and last sacrifice,

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and that kind of, once again, leans on.

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The, the overlap between the Abrahamic
faith, Islam Judaism and Christianity,

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because you reference, you say,
Hey, we believe in Adam and Eve in

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the garden sinned against Allah.

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And the first act of really compassion
that God had for humanity was that

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he clothed them and he clothed them
in the form of animal sacrifice.

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He killed he killed a lamb
and provided them clothing.

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And, you know, he's nodding, right.

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As, as most good Muslims would.

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Yeah.

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And you say, you know, and you see
throughout the old Testament narrative

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or the Torah narrative that really for
humanity to come into the presence of,

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of a law there had to be sacrificed.

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There had to be a toning sacrifice,
usually in the form of, of, of

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animal sacrifice so much so that
right between Abraham and his son,

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and it's important, most Christian
missionaries would say  you don't.

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Like there on the street in an hour,
get into an argument over whether it

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was Isaac or Ishmael, you just say
Abraham and his son, you know, Abraham

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and his son, there, there was a needed
sacrifice between Abraham and God.

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And instead of making him sacrifice
his son, he provided a Ram.

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And then so on and so on through the,
the, the Torah, the old Testament.

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And, and then I shared with him and I
said, and then we meet the person of

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Jesus, who we believe was the son of God.

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And there on the cross, we see him and
we see what his cousin, John the Baptist

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said, which, which was interesting.

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Cause he had never heard of John

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the

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Baptist.

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We see that John the Baptist
calls him the lamb of God who

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takes away the sins of the world.

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And this man had never heard that phrase.

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And and I said, well, it's appropriate
because on the cross he was killed.

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And this, this also brings us to
another huge difference between

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Muslims and Christians, because
Muslims don't believe that Jesus was

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Mike: killed on the

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Jeremy: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Because they believe Jesus
lived a sinless life.

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They believe he was born of a virgin.

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The Quran actually lists like
a ton of really interesting

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things, presumably about Jesus.

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They believe when he was an infant.

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That he spoke.

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So they believe all sorts of miraculous

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Mike: things

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about

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Jesus.

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It's not that he

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died.

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It's not

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that

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he

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died.

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Or is it not that he died at all,
or just not that he died on the

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Jeremy: They believe no, they believe that
he didn't die that he was taken up by a

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law and that he'll return one day He's
actually jesus is a huge part of Islamic

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eschatological beliefs, like at the end
of days that he's going to come back.

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So they, they actually, and this
is a sort of an important thing to

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understand about  the Islamic worldview.

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They think that, well, if Jesus
was sinless, They don't believe

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he's the highest prophet.

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They believe Muhammad
is the highest prophet.

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But if, if Jesus was sinless,
then it, then Allah would have

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never allowed him to die on a

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Mike: Interesting.

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So they accept that
he's sinless, but they,

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Jeremy: Yeah.

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It's a kind of a strange thing.

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Yeah.

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And like I said, they believe
he's born of a virgin.

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They actually hold Mary in really high
regard to they would have referred.

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Yeah.

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And usually they refer to her as Miriam.

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Mike: So do they think that
The New Testament, the Gospels

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are lying or that they've been

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Jeremy: corrupted.

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Yeah, they believe that they believe
that the Gospels, yeah, the Injil.

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Is that we have is corrupted, but
interestingly enough I mean, most

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Muslims have never read it because,
because all they hear from their

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leaders, from imams, from the
culture is that it's, it's corrupted.

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It can't be trusted that early
Christians changed the original message

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00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:12,300
of Isa to fit some other narrative.

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Yeah.

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And, and of course they
reject Trinitarianism.

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They reject that Jesus is God.

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They reject that he's the son of God.

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Probably the One of the most memorized
passages in the Quran is where Muhammad

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wrote that God would never have a son.

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Mike: Yeah.

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Jeremy: And so they reject, they
reject really the totality of

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who Christians say Jesus was.

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Mike: I'm curious because you know,
you talk about in this article

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They, don't believe that it is befitting
of God to have a son and at the same time

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they hold family in such a high regard,

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but if it's not befitting of God
to have a son, that seems that

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there's something negative about

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Jeremy: having

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00:17:52,910 --> 00:17:53,000
a

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son.

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00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:58,430
Yeah, I think that, yeah, I mean,
I think it all boils down to Islam.

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Islam is probably the purest
form of monotheism that you

383
00:18:02,350 --> 00:18:03,100
could find.

384
00:18:03,430 --> 00:18:06,270
In the sense, I mean, Christians are
monotheists, but they believe that God

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00:18:06,270 --> 00:18:09,700
is, is three persons in one essence.

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The first thing you have to do to
become a Muslim is say, there is no God,

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00:18:14,120 --> 00:18:14,280
but

388
00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:14,670
God

389
00:18:15,050 --> 00:18:16,680
in, in Muhammad is his prophet.

390
00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:17,960
it's called the Shahada.

391
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And so the true essence
right there with submission.

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Of

393
00:18:22,795 --> 00:18:25,655
Islam, the true essence
is that God is one.

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00:18:25,665 --> 00:18:30,165
I remember my professors using
the word unicity,  the idea

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that  God is one in nature.

396
00:18:32,995 --> 00:18:34,835
God is one in person.

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And so I don't think that they would That
they would view it as the insistence that

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00:18:40,635 --> 00:18:43,255
God couldn't have a son as a negative.

399
00:18:43,288 --> 00:18:48,968
They view God interacting
with anything other than, than

400
00:18:49,258 --> 00:18:52,958
himself as a defiling of the

401
00:18:52,958 --> 00:18:53,468
nature of

402
00:18:53,468 --> 00:18:53,848
God.

403
00:18:54,588 --> 00:18:58,288
And so, so the Islamic view of God
is, is very transcendent as well.

404
00:18:58,338 --> 00:19:02,068
I would not call the Islamic view
of Allah as like imminent or near.

405
00:19:02,233 --> 00:19:03,053
to humanity.

406
00:19:03,443 --> 00:19:05,763
And Muslims would say, that's
why angels are so important.

407
00:19:05,763 --> 00:19:08,333
That's why  Allah did
not speak to Muhammad.

408
00:19:08,363 --> 00:19:09,663
Gabriel spoke to Muhammad.

409
00:19:10,033 --> 00:19:12,563
And then if you can take it even
a little step further and think

410
00:19:12,573 --> 00:19:16,803
about the, the Christian concept of
incarnation,  when you learn then

411
00:19:16,823 --> 00:19:20,183
what Muslims view about Allah, the
incarnation is hugely offensive.

412
00:19:20,253 --> 00:19:25,243
The idea that God took on flesh and
dwelt among us is seen as, as a defiling.

413
00:19:25,693 --> 00:19:28,313
Of the nature of God,
because why would God become

414
00:19:28,313 --> 00:19:28,793
a human?

415
00:19:28,873 --> 00:19:31,593
That's so, so much lower than he is.

416
00:19:31,763 --> 00:19:32,773
And what's funny is like Christians

417
00:19:32,785 --> 00:19:33,411
Mike: funny,

418
00:19:33,411 --> 00:19:34,664
like Christians

419
00:19:34,843 --> 00:19:35,213
Jeremy: You know what I mean?

420
00:19:35,290 --> 00:19:35,613
Mike: say,

421
00:19:35,613 --> 00:19:36,843
Jeremy: That's how much he loves us.

422
00:19:36,843 --> 00:19:37,103
Right?

423
00:19:37,303 --> 00:19:41,313
And so Christians operate with this, this
idea of God is transcendent yet imminent.

424
00:19:41,363 --> 00:19:45,313
He is, he is, he is far and above
creation, but he has chosen to

425
00:19:45,313 --> 00:19:47,793
make himself near and lowly.

426
00:19:48,178 --> 00:19:48,438
Right.

427
00:19:48,438 --> 00:19:51,768
And that's actually an interesting thing
to like Christ describes himself as

428
00:19:51,828 --> 00:19:53,888
gentle and lowly, right?

429
00:19:53,888 --> 00:19:55,798
These are not Islamic concepts at all.

430
00:19:56,128 --> 00:20:01,128
And so what they say happened at Calvary
and this is actually what my friend

431
00:20:01,128 --> 00:20:05,718
in the Iowa said is, is he stopped
me and he said, see, we disagree.

432
00:20:06,273 --> 00:20:07,973
Isa was not killed on the cross

433
00:20:08,023 --> 00:20:13,593
and  one of the beliefs that developed
that explained what happened at Calvary is

434
00:20:13,603 --> 00:20:20,543
that Allah took Jesus from the cross and
replaced him with somebody else and sort

435
00:20:20,543 --> 00:20:24,013
of fooled People into thinking that it was

436
00:20:24,033 --> 00:20:24,663
ESA, that

437
00:20:24,663 --> 00:20:24,703
it

438
00:20:24,703 --> 00:20:24,823
was

439
00:20:24,823 --> 00:20:25,423
Jesus.

440
00:20:25,483 --> 00:20:26,233
Mike: Interesting.

441
00:20:26,353 --> 00:20:26,713
Yeah.

442
00:20:26,803 --> 00:20:27,853
and, And

443
00:20:27,853 --> 00:20:30,013
actually, and is this,
is this in the Quran?

444
00:20:30,013 --> 00:20:31,513
This is, or is it just a belief

445
00:20:31,643 --> 00:20:34,033
Jeremy: so there's like one,
there's like one mention of it.

446
00:20:34,043 --> 00:20:35,993
It's kind of like a throwaway comment.

447
00:20:36,153 --> 00:20:38,283
And then really throughout time.

448
00:20:38,783 --> 00:20:40,233
Muslims have developed this

449
00:20:40,233 --> 00:20:40,773
belief,

450
00:20:41,033 --> 00:20:46,540
Which is sort of common  in some instances
like how the Quran interpreted the Old

451
00:20:46,540 --> 00:20:50,760
and New Testament, there's sort of  these
asides that that Mohammed threw out.

452
00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:54,440
In the Quran in that throughout
Islamic history, the Hadith and then

453
00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:58,350
the Sharia, like the consensus sort
of developed into what maybe most

454
00:20:58,350 --> 00:21:00,140
Muslims would consider to be true now.

455
00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:03,720
And so, you know, sitting in that
coffee shop you know, he expressed

456
00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:06,300
that it was like, no, we don't
believe he said died on the cross.

457
00:21:06,300 --> 00:21:07,380
We believe it's somebody else.

458
00:21:07,380 --> 00:21:11,180
And, and I had actually had a
conversation with a friend of mine who

459
00:21:11,180 --> 00:21:14,810
we were working with that, that while
we were there basically like, . What

460
00:21:14,810 --> 00:21:16,960
do you say when people say that?

461
00:21:17,060 --> 00:21:17,550
And.

462
00:21:17,905 --> 00:21:20,405
He had kind of told me what he shared
and I thought it was brilliant.

463
00:21:20,405 --> 00:21:24,445
And what I, I shared with, with my
friend in the Iowa and Jr was sitting

464
00:21:24,445 --> 00:21:27,855
across the table and I found out
later, cause he hadn't said anything.

465
00:21:28,285 --> 00:21:30,865
He was just praying the whole
time, which is, which is great.

466
00:21:30,915 --> 00:21:34,765
And it's a big reason why I always
encourage to like for people to as

467
00:21:34,765 --> 00:21:36,975
best as they can, you know Do this

468
00:21:36,985 --> 00:21:37,125
kind

469
00:21:37,125 --> 00:21:37,505
of work

470
00:21:37,505 --> 00:21:38,295
in community

471
00:21:38,395 --> 00:21:41,905
is what I said is what my friend
had kind of shared with me that he

472
00:21:41,905 --> 00:21:45,455
says, which is, Hey, listen, I know
that that's what Muslims believe,

473
00:21:45,455 --> 00:21:46,635
but let me ask you this question.

474
00:21:47,035 --> 00:21:50,815
I know that family is really important
to most Muslims and especially

475
00:21:50,815 --> 00:21:51,985
here in the Arab part of the world.

476
00:21:51,985 --> 00:21:53,145
Like family is essential.

477
00:21:53,215 --> 00:21:54,925
And he agreed because it is.

478
00:21:54,935 --> 00:21:59,555
And I was like, let me ask you this,
you know, that Miriam was at the cross

479
00:22:00,565 --> 00:22:01,335
and he said, yeah.

480
00:22:01,345 --> 00:22:02,155
And I said, okay.

481
00:22:02,555 --> 00:22:05,115
And I, I won't share his
name, but you know, Hey.

482
00:22:05,515 --> 00:22:07,085
If, if that was

483
00:22:07,085 --> 00:22:07,505
you

484
00:22:07,825 --> 00:22:12,705
on that cross and your mother was
there, don't you think she would have

485
00:22:12,705 --> 00:22:15,415
known if it was somebody else in your

486
00:22:15,415 --> 00:22:15,955
place?

487
00:22:16,785 --> 00:22:18,465
And He stopped.

488
00:22:18,465 --> 00:22:20,355
He was actually, it was kind of
a funny moment because he was

489
00:22:20,355 --> 00:22:24,785
drinking his tea and he stopped
and kind of gave me like a look out

490
00:22:24,785 --> 00:22:24,945
of

491
00:22:25,135 --> 00:22:25,925
out of the corner of his

492
00:22:25,925 --> 00:22:26,315
eye

493
00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:29,990
and he paused and I'll pause
here to not that there's not a

494
00:22:29,990 --> 00:22:31,380
response to be given to that.

495
00:22:31,410 --> 00:22:32,640
Because obviously we are talking

496
00:22:32,675 --> 00:22:32,875
Mike: about

497
00:22:33,230 --> 00:22:33,730
Jeremy: God.

498
00:22:33,730 --> 00:22:33,900
Right.

499
00:22:33,900 --> 00:22:38,310
So it would be very easy for a Muslim
to say, well, yeah, like Allah could

500
00:22:38,310 --> 00:22:41,100
have done that, which then kind
of begs the question of like, why

501
00:22:41,220 --> 00:22:43,110
is Allah being so deceptive here?

502
00:22:43,390 --> 00:22:43,730
Right.

503
00:22:44,140 --> 00:22:47,250
But we didn't even get into that because
he just stopped and he kind of laughed

504
00:22:47,650 --> 00:22:50,160
and me and JR just kind of laughed
because it was like this funny moment.

505
00:22:50,740 --> 00:22:54,995
And he said, Well, you know, if I
understood as much about Christianity,

506
00:22:55,025 --> 00:22:58,395
as you know, about Islam, then I
think I could answer that question.

507
00:22:58,425 --> 00:22:58,715
And I was

508
00:22:58,715 --> 00:22:58,975
like,

509
00:22:59,055 --> 00:22:59,365
that's

510
00:22:59,375 --> 00:22:59,925
fine.

511
00:23:00,095 --> 00:23:01,695
That's a perfectly acceptable answer.

512
00:23:02,055 --> 00:23:02,695
, but listen,

513
00:23:03,095 --> 00:23:03,345
when

514
00:23:03,435 --> 00:23:08,695
I want to learn more about Islam, I
read the Quran and I talked to Muslims.

515
00:23:09,765 --> 00:23:13,645
If you want to learn more about ESA
and Christianity, you should read

516
00:23:13,645 --> 00:23:16,025
the NGO and talk to Christians.

517
00:23:16,405 --> 00:23:20,830
And I said, and I believe that the
NGO that I have is Is the true in

518
00:23:20,830 --> 00:23:22,220
Jill and that it wasn't corrupted.

519
00:23:22,700 --> 00:23:23,760
Would you be willing.

520
00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:26,440
If we came back tomorrow to read it with

521
00:23:26,485 --> 00:23:28,105
Mike: us, And the Inge is just the

522
00:23:28,290 --> 00:23:30,880
Jeremy: the gospel, yeah, the new
Testament is usually the word that they

523
00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:32,470
use for the gospel or the new Testament.

524
00:23:32,870 --> 00:23:34,950
And amazingly, he said, yes.

525
00:23:35,050 --> 00:23:38,770
And and you know, we, I
still actually I'm in touch

526
00:23:38,770 --> 00:23:38,900
with

527
00:23:38,900 --> 00:23:39,400
that guy.

528
00:23:39,500 --> 00:23:41,870
Yeah, through, through the
wonders of, of WhatsApp.

529
00:23:41,870 --> 00:23:44,890
And, and we, we, we did make more
contact with him while we were there.

530
00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:46,660
To this point, , he's not a believer.

531
00:23:46,750 --> 00:23:50,650
I do believe he's open to, to the message
of Christianity, but  even the reason

532
00:23:50,650 --> 00:23:52,620
that I wrote that article was that really.

533
00:23:53,020 --> 00:23:55,900
What I learned from that conversation is
not even so much about teaching others

534
00:23:55,920 --> 00:24:01,610
is that Getting people to the point where
they understand that just because you call

535
00:24:01,610 --> 00:24:04,510
someone Jesus And I call somebody Jesus.

536
00:24:04,810 --> 00:24:06,540
We're not necessarily
talking about the same

537
00:24:06,540 --> 00:24:07,120
Jesus

538
00:24:07,430 --> 00:24:10,360
And we see that too with other groups
like latter day saints, you know And

539
00:24:10,360 --> 00:24:13,870
i've done a lot of other writing and
podcasting about the idea that  just

540
00:24:13,870 --> 00:24:18,230
because we're talking about God or we
say Heavenly Father, or we, we say Allah,

541
00:24:18,250 --> 00:24:19,690
which is just the Arabic word for God.

542
00:24:19,690 --> 00:24:24,760
Or we say Jesus or Isa doesn't mean that
we're talking about the same person and

543
00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,780
that it's important to get people to
the point where you ask those questions

544
00:24:27,900 --> 00:24:29,350
that lead them to the conclusion.

545
00:24:29,750 --> 00:24:29,940
Okay.

546
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:31,980
Who actually was Jesus and what did he

547
00:24:31,980 --> 00:24:32,510
do?

548
00:24:33,100 --> 00:24:36,045
And give them the opportunity
to say, like, Well, no that's

549
00:24:36,045 --> 00:24:37,275
not what we believe about Jesus.

550
00:24:37,275 --> 00:24:37,475
Right.

551
00:24:37,675 --> 00:24:40,485
Cause at the beginning of the
conversation, I think, yeah, that

552
00:24:40,485 --> 00:24:44,185
was in the Middle East and an
Arabic population in this open air.

553
00:24:44,225 --> 00:24:44,595
Ah, wow.

554
00:24:44,595 --> 00:24:48,065
But like conversations like that happen
here in the, in our context as well,

555
00:24:48,305 --> 00:24:49,635
which is like, that's not my Jesus.

556
00:24:49,635 --> 00:24:50,765
And I actually joke all the time.

557
00:24:50,765 --> 00:24:54,725
Like when I was a student pastor, I
used to use the scene from Talbot.

558
00:24:54,735 --> 00:24:56,415
You've ever seen Talladega nights, right?

559
00:24:56,475 --> 00:25:00,435
Not an appropriate movie necessarily,
but not one that you would typically get

560
00:25:00,435 --> 00:25:04,045
sermon illustrations from, but there's the
scene in that movie where will Farrell.

561
00:25:04,445 --> 00:25:06,285
Is praying and he's like, well, I like

562
00:25:06,285 --> 00:25:06,375
to

563
00:25:06,375 --> 00:25:06,625
pray to

564
00:25:06,625 --> 00:25:07,460
baby Jesus,

565
00:25:07,460 --> 00:25:07,740
right?

566
00:25:07,740 --> 00:25:08,220
And John C.

567
00:25:08,220 --> 00:25:10,000
Riley's like, I like to picture Jesus.

568
00:25:10,370 --> 00:25:13,120
It's like the lead singer
of Lynyrd Skynyrd, right?

569
00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:16,600
And it's stupid and it's silly
and it, you know, it's not

570
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:17,880
academic at all or whatever.

571
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:18,770
It's not missional at all.

572
00:25:18,780 --> 00:25:21,650
But I really don't think even what
we experience here in the West

573
00:25:21,650 --> 00:25:24,540
is that different than what we
experienced in an Arab population,

574
00:25:24,540 --> 00:25:27,980
which is, we all just kind of like
to say, well, this is who Jesus

575
00:25:27,990 --> 00:25:28,160
is

576
00:25:28,180 --> 00:25:28,730
to me.

577
00:25:28,770 --> 00:25:29,190
Yeah.

578
00:25:29,250 --> 00:25:29,610
Right.

579
00:25:29,620 --> 00:25:32,340
But the merit of the conversation
really boils down to, well, who actually

580
00:25:32,340 --> 00:25:32,650
Mike: was

581
00:25:32,650 --> 00:25:33,240
Jesus and

582
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:34,419
what did he do?

583
00:25:34,420 --> 00:25:36,160
Who did he say that he was,

584
00:25:36,220 --> 00:25:39,670
, Jeremy: the conclusions that we come
to those conversations are important,

585
00:25:39,670 --> 00:25:42,530
just like the conversation I had
with this guy, which is to say like,

586
00:25:42,980 --> 00:25:44,370
well, Hey,  one of us is wrong.

587
00:25:44,865 --> 00:25:46,255
Or, or maybe both of us are wrong.

588
00:25:46,265 --> 00:25:46,735
That's the other thing.

589
00:25:46,735 --> 00:25:51,055
Just like, Hey, either, either one of us
is right, or both of us are wrong, but

590
00:25:51,055 --> 00:25:52,745
we both can't simultaneously be right.

591
00:25:52,855 --> 00:25:53,715
I believe he died on

592
00:25:53,715 --> 00:25:54,065
a cross

593
00:25:54,085 --> 00:25:54,735
and was resurrected

594
00:25:54,745 --> 00:25:55,545
three days later.

595
00:25:55,835 --> 00:25:57,755
And because of that, my
sins can be forgiven.

596
00:25:57,755 --> 00:26:02,285
Now you believe he wasn't killed on
a cross and you believe that you have

597
00:26:02,285 --> 00:26:04,125
to do all these things to please God.

598
00:26:04,525 --> 00:26:06,185
So which one of us is right.

599
00:26:06,535 --> 00:26:09,435
If one of us is, you know,
and, and the answer to

600
00:26:09,465 --> 00:26:10,395
Mike: that matters a great

601
00:26:10,905 --> 00:26:10,995
deal.

602
00:26:11,205 --> 00:26:11,685
Mm-Hmm.

603
00:26:11,775 --> 00:26:16,125
.And  it goes kind of along with the
last episode we just did on on truth,

604
00:26:16,130 --> 00:26:21,685
but when we're trying to reach people,
the discussions about religion, I think

605
00:26:21,690 --> 00:26:26,115
can sometimes feel almost like a game
of tug of you know, and that's kind

606
00:26:26,115 --> 00:26:29,505
of the debate mindset of I'm trying
to pull you over to my side and you're

607
00:26:29,505 --> 00:26:31,045
trying to pull me over to your side.

608
00:26:31,045 --> 00:26:32,195
and we'll see Who's stronger.

609
00:26:32,205 --> 00:26:35,395
who really knows their stuff more
and whose beliefs are stronger.

610
00:26:35,795 --> 00:26:41,455
But if truth is real, if truth
exists, we believe that Christianity

611
00:26:41,465 --> 00:26:41,735
is

612
00:26:41,745 --> 00:26:41,975
the

613
00:26:41,985 --> 00:26:42,375
truth.

614
00:26:42,750 --> 00:26:45,570
And so we don't have to
try to pull them over.

615
00:26:45,570 --> 00:26:48,330
If we get the attitude of coming
alongside them and saying,

616
00:26:48,330 --> 00:26:50,730
Hey, let's seek truth together.

617
00:26:50,740 --> 00:26:54,370
Let's work together to try to
figure out what is true because we

618
00:26:54,370 --> 00:26:56,880
believe that this is what is true.

619
00:26:56,900 --> 00:27:00,360
So if we're honestly pursuing truth,
we're going to end up at Christianity.

620
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:00,980
Right.

621
00:27:01,065 --> 00:27:01,295
Jeremy: Yeah.

622
00:27:01,355 --> 00:27:05,515
And, and one thing that I, I, I, in my
experience is like talking about faith

623
00:27:05,515 --> 00:27:09,615
with Muslims is you don't experience
as much of Like the relativism that we

624
00:27:09,615 --> 00:27:11,985
were talking about in the last episode
with them because really what they're

625
00:27:11,985 --> 00:27:13,275
saying is no actually you're wrong

626
00:27:13,285 --> 00:27:14,005
about Jesus

627
00:27:14,075 --> 00:27:15,655
and we're right and I'm like, okay.

628
00:27:15,655 --> 00:27:17,695
Well we can have a
conversation about this, right?

629
00:27:17,985 --> 00:27:22,585
Another thing that is important to
remember And this is one thing I've just

630
00:27:22,585 --> 00:27:28,640
learned extensively from missionaries
to The predominantly Muslim world is to

631
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:31,300
try and get them to read what they call

632
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:33,690
the Angeal because most of them haven't.

633
00:27:34,090 --> 00:27:37,480
And something amazing really
happens when you really

634
00:27:37,630 --> 00:27:38,410
read

635
00:27:38,610 --> 00:27:43,070
the gospels and you really, Oh man,
like, no, like if, if this Jesus

636
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:47,630
is the real Jesus, I like, there's
something really desirable about that.

637
00:27:47,690 --> 00:27:51,430
And not just that it's like, well, our
narrative is better than the Islamic

638
00:27:51,430 --> 00:27:54,950
narrative, but it's like, man, if what the
Christians are saying about Jesus is true.

639
00:27:55,500 --> 00:27:55,680
Right.

640
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:58,480
That's the end of the any three
method, which, which I really didn't

641
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:00,720
get to be able to, to, to get to.

642
00:28:01,120 --> 00:28:03,200
With our friend that day,
because of the objection

643
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:03,370
to

644
00:28:03,370 --> 00:28:03,490
the

645
00:28:03,490 --> 00:28:03,730
fact

646
00:28:03,730 --> 00:28:04,150
that Jesus

647
00:28:04,150 --> 00:28:06,700
didn't die on the cross, but the
end is no, but I can know that

648
00:28:06,700 --> 00:28:06,810
my

649
00:28:06,810 --> 00:28:07,070
sins

650
00:28:07,070 --> 00:28:07,140
are

651
00:28:07,140 --> 00:28:08,110
forgiven now.

652
00:28:08,265 --> 00:28:10,695
And so works are important,
but they don't save me.

653
00:28:11,125 --> 00:28:15,015
And that's really like, so, so
the end of that story is right.

654
00:28:15,015 --> 00:28:17,960
We, We walk him back to his travel agency.

655
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:19,310
We're, we're kind of laughing.

656
00:28:19,450 --> 00:28:21,510
We had, we had really in a
very short amount of time

657
00:28:21,510 --> 00:28:23,720
had, had grown close to him.

658
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:26,490
Weirdly, you know, I mean, just,
and I think actually a lot of it was

659
00:28:26,490 --> 00:28:30,210
because we were talking about issues
of faith, like in our, in our society.

660
00:28:30,755 --> 00:28:32,085
We're not supposed to talk about faith.

661
00:28:32,085 --> 00:28:33,345
We're not supposed to talk about religion.

662
00:28:33,745 --> 00:28:35,215
And so we kind of don't know how.

663
00:28:35,475 --> 00:28:37,085
And so we hear about
conversations like this.

664
00:28:37,085 --> 00:28:37,775
We're like, I,

665
00:28:37,815 --> 00:28:38,025
I'm

666
00:28:38,035 --> 00:28:38,355
Mike: scared

667
00:28:38,355 --> 00:28:38,425
to even

668
00:28:38,655 --> 00:28:38,935
ask

669
00:28:38,935 --> 00:28:39,435
these questions.

670
00:28:39,495 --> 00:28:39,985
Mm hmm.

671
00:28:40,025 --> 00:28:41,395
You feel like somebody's
going to be mad at

672
00:28:41,625 --> 00:28:42,045
Jeremy: Right.

673
00:28:42,065 --> 00:28:45,855
And luckily, and this is an
encouragement to listeners that if

674
00:28:45,855 --> 00:28:48,245
you're talking about a population.

675
00:28:48,660 --> 00:28:51,990
Or a religious demographic
that isn't a Westerner from the

676
00:28:51,990 --> 00:28:53,710
United States, most of the world

677
00:28:53,710 --> 00:28:54,140
doesn't feel

678
00:28:54,140 --> 00:28:55,180
that way about religion.

679
00:28:55,260 --> 00:28:56,150
I mean, you can talk

680
00:28:56,150 --> 00:28:56,270
up

681
00:28:56,270 --> 00:28:56,420
to

682
00:28:56,420 --> 00:28:56,490
a

683
00:28:56,490 --> 00:28:56,890
Muslim

684
00:28:56,890 --> 00:28:57,720
about Islam.

685
00:28:57,730 --> 00:29:00,990
Like they're usually not going
to be taken aback by that.

686
00:29:01,510 --> 00:29:04,905
And so we had, You know, we had
gotten really friendly with him.

687
00:29:04,905 --> 00:29:09,005
So we're laughing, we're talking,
and then the ending of that story

688
00:29:09,005 --> 00:29:15,225
for us was walking away and looking
forward to telling someone more

689
00:29:15,225 --> 00:29:20,675
about Jesus who only knew Isa, the
hope, was that we could convince him.

690
00:29:21,075 --> 00:29:23,795
Through the merit of scripture through
the merit of the work of the Holy

691
00:29:23,795 --> 00:29:26,335
Spirit in his heart and mind, because
ultimately we're not going to convince

692
00:29:26,335 --> 00:29:30,025
him that no, he wasn't just a prophet who

693
00:29:30,025 --> 00:29:30,525
was pointing

694
00:29:30,525 --> 00:29:31,055
to Muhammad.

695
00:29:31,055 --> 00:29:31,625
He was

696
00:29:31,845 --> 00:29:35,524
God in human form, like he
took on flesh and blood.

697
00:29:35,795 --> 00:29:41,365
He took on your sin so that
now submission to God is a joy.

698
00:29:41,805 --> 00:29:42,025
It's

699
00:29:42,035 --> 00:29:42,335
not a

700
00:29:42,355 --> 00:29:46,155
duty, you know, and that's really the
hope of those types of conversations

701
00:29:46,155 --> 00:29:48,885
with, with not just Muslims, but
really anybody who thinks that they

702
00:29:48,885 --> 00:29:52,695
know Jesus, but has sort of fallen
for some counterfeit version of him,

703
00:29:52,745 --> 00:29:53,075
Mike: which

704
00:29:53,105 --> 00:29:58,655
I feel like the longer you're in
Islam, trying to earn your way into

705
00:29:58,665 --> 00:30:02,605
heaven without ever knowing that you
can never really know if you've been

706
00:30:02,615 --> 00:30:05,285
good enough or, or done enough good.

707
00:30:05,585 --> 00:30:08,575
with Your life that the longer
you're in that the more appealing

708
00:30:08,625 --> 00:30:14,805
. grace has to become that to, To
think of, of isa as, as taking

709
00:30:14,835 --> 00:30:15,585
Jeremy: the punishment

710
00:30:15,595 --> 00:30:15,715
Mike: so

711
00:30:15,715 --> 00:30:15,845
you

712
00:30:15,845 --> 00:30:16,065
don't

713
00:30:16,065 --> 00:30:16,425
have to

714
00:30:16,515 --> 00:30:17,035
earn it.

715
00:30:17,235 --> 00:30:17,685
Jeremy: Yeah.

716
00:30:17,745 --> 00:30:20,805
I mean, you would think so and,
and, and, and ultimately, like the

717
00:30:20,805 --> 00:30:22,815
people who have come out of Islam.

718
00:30:23,215 --> 00:30:24,525
To convert to Christianity.

719
00:30:24,525 --> 00:30:28,195
I think that's the testimony, but it is,
it is a tough pill for them to swallow

720
00:30:28,195 --> 00:30:31,205
because, because they do and part of

721
00:30:31,315 --> 00:30:33,535
Mike: is like, honor tied up in that

722
00:30:33,875 --> 00:30:34,275
Jeremy: yeah.

723
00:30:34,315 --> 00:30:35,925
I mean the idea, yeah.

724
00:30:35,925 --> 00:30:39,065
So I think it's important for Christians
to understand like what, what, what

725
00:30:39,065 --> 00:30:43,695
we're asking them to believe  it goes
against the entire nature of a law,

726
00:30:43,705 --> 00:30:46,625
like the idea that, okay, so you're
telling me he took on flesh, became

727
00:30:46,625 --> 00:30:50,315
a human, or also that he's three,
he's three persons in one, right.

728
00:30:50,315 --> 00:30:54,095
Which is, goes against, you know,
the whole confession of, of Islam,

729
00:30:54,095 --> 00:30:58,475
which is that God is only one, but
that even after all of that, that

730
00:30:58,475 --> 00:31:03,265
he died, he, he experienced one of
those brutal, brutal execution methods

731
00:31:03,265 --> 00:31:04,825
that the humanity has ever known.

732
00:31:05,395 --> 00:31:06,805
And then he came back to life.

733
00:31:07,255 --> 00:31:09,345
So it's, it is a tough pill to swallow.

734
00:31:09,345 --> 00:31:13,165
And I think that when you say
honor, like the idea that God

735
00:31:13,645 --> 00:31:18,795
would allow that of himself, once again,
kind of goes to that idea, that's not

736
00:31:18,795 --> 00:31:22,805
befitting their, their version of a law,
which kind of goes once again to that

737
00:31:22,805 --> 00:31:24,505
great exclamation point of Christianity,

738
00:31:24,505 --> 00:31:25,315
which is, yeah,

739
00:31:25,315 --> 00:31:25,645
that's the

740
00:31:25,645 --> 00:31:26,425
whole point.

741
00:31:26,435 --> 00:31:28,185
And actually I find that, I find that.

742
00:31:28,445 --> 00:31:30,515
When I, when I have those
conversations with the Muslims,

743
00:31:30,785 --> 00:31:32,175
my appreciate your, I'm like,

744
00:31:32,355 --> 00:31:32,615
Mike: actually,

745
00:31:32,615 --> 00:31:32,755
you're

746
00:31:32,885 --> 00:31:33,325
right.

747
00:31:33,325 --> 00:31:33,881
It's not

748
00:31:33,881 --> 00:31:34,159
befitting.

749
00:31:34,159 --> 00:31:35,555
It's not befitting.

750
00:31:35,955 --> 00:31:39,605
It's like Peter saying, Lord,
you will never wash my feet.

751
00:31:39,835 --> 00:31:40,865
And Christ says, You don't

752
00:31:40,865 --> 00:31:41,315
get it.

753
00:31:41,415 --> 00:31:41,845
Jeremy: don't get it.

754
00:31:41,845 --> 00:31:42,025
Yeah.

755
00:31:42,175 --> 00:31:42,945
Or it's same thing.

756
00:31:42,945 --> 00:31:46,225
Well, we'll kind of keep it along with
Peter too, is like, you know, when Jesus

757
00:31:46,225 --> 00:31:48,855
is saying like, Hey, all these horrible
things are going to happen to me.

758
00:31:49,155 --> 00:31:49,655
And Peter

759
00:31:49,655 --> 00:31:49,855
pulls

760
00:31:49,855 --> 00:31:49,965
him

761
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:50,270
Mike: aside

762
00:31:50,270 --> 00:31:50,360
and

763
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:50,570
it's like,

764
00:31:50,570 --> 00:31:50,900
no, no,

765
00:31:50,975 --> 00:31:51,395
Jeremy: no, no,

766
00:31:51,455 --> 00:31:52,065
that no,

767
00:31:52,075 --> 00:31:52,375
we're not

768
00:31:52,375 --> 00:31:53,345
going to let that happen.

769
00:31:53,875 --> 00:31:54,105
And

770
00:31:54,105 --> 00:31:57,305
he's, you know, get behind me, Satan,
because he's like, you don't understand.

771
00:31:57,595 --> 00:31:59,965
And it is part of me kind
of goes, no, you are right.

772
00:31:59,985 --> 00:32:05,185
You, it wasn't befitting of God,
but God is so loving of the world.

773
00:32:05,570 --> 00:32:09,930
Right, you know, John, John three, God
so loved the world that he gave his

774
00:32:09,930 --> 00:32:15,290
son that whoever would believe in him,
Paul later would say, whoever would.

775
00:32:15,890 --> 00:32:19,340
confess with their mouth that
he is Lord and believe in their

776
00:32:19,350 --> 00:32:22,590
heart that God raised him from the
dead, that they would be saved.

777
00:32:23,010 --> 00:32:26,510
And that's the message for
Muslims or for anybody really.

778
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:29,200
But it is a tough pill for
Muslims to swallow because it goes

779
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:30,570
against, yeah, we, we have all

780
00:32:30,570 --> 00:32:31,860
those similarities, but

781
00:32:31,860 --> 00:32:36,970
the underlying worldview of who and what
is God is so intrinsically different

782
00:32:37,370 --> 00:32:38,390
that , it

783
00:32:38,410 --> 00:32:39,210
probably is going to take

784
00:32:39,210 --> 00:32:39,380
more

785
00:32:39,380 --> 00:32:39,550
than

786
00:32:39,550 --> 00:32:40,520
one conversation.

787
00:32:40,689 --> 00:32:45,439
I think that the image that
most people within Islam have of

788
00:32:45,439 --> 00:32:50,099
Christians is something akin to
maybe what we would say is cheap

789
00:32:50,109 --> 00:32:50,649
grace

790
00:32:51,179 --> 00:32:54,249
, and of course, some of this fault,
the blame for some of this falls at

791
00:32:54,249 --> 00:32:57,999
our feet, which is that they believe
Christians can do whatever you want.

792
00:32:58,499 --> 00:33:02,479
Say whatever you want, live however you
want, believe whatever you want, and that

793
00:33:02,479 --> 00:33:03,909
everything's going to be fine in the end.

794
00:33:04,309 --> 00:33:08,589
And, and so I think that there's a balance
that Christians need to begin striking

795
00:33:08,699 --> 00:33:12,339
better with, with their communication
to the Islamic world and the witness

796
00:33:12,339 --> 00:33:14,049
that we're living at least publicly.

797
00:33:14,449 --> 00:33:16,649
Which is to say that like, no,
we don't believe you can do and

798
00:33:16,649 --> 00:33:17,879
say and be whatever you want.

799
00:33:17,879 --> 00:33:18,419
In fact, right.

800
00:33:18,449 --> 00:33:22,109
The whole point of Paul's words there
is like, no, Christ has to be your Lord.

801
00:33:22,139 --> 00:33:23,099
He has to be your master.

802
00:33:23,099 --> 00:33:28,519
Like, and because we do believe
he's God, we hold him in, in, in as

803
00:33:28,519 --> 00:33:31,819
high regard as Muslims hold Allah.

804
00:33:31,919 --> 00:33:34,969
But we just believe he loves us
personal relationship is a very

805
00:33:34,969 --> 00:33:37,419
weird thing for them to think.

806
00:33:38,019 --> 00:33:41,459
About with a law, , there's been instances
where I've talked to Muslims and, and

807
00:33:41,489 --> 00:33:43,309
and asked like, Hey, how can I pray for

808
00:33:43,309 --> 00:33:43,689
you?

809
00:33:44,139 --> 00:33:46,189
I've had Muslims kind of struggle

810
00:33:46,189 --> 00:33:49,319
with that because the idea
that like, well, we don't pray

811
00:33:49,319 --> 00:33:51,469
to a lot to receive things.

812
00:33:52,034 --> 00:33:54,744
And this isn't all of them, of course,
but  some Muslims would even say  I

813
00:33:54,744 --> 00:33:58,794
don't want you to just pray for me so
that I get something and it's like,

814
00:33:58,804 --> 00:34:00,024
well, no, that's not the point, right?

815
00:34:00,054 --> 00:34:03,574
The point is,  let's Revere
and adore and worship God,

816
00:34:03,904 --> 00:34:04,124
but

817
00:34:04,134 --> 00:34:04,814
he does

818
00:34:04,814 --> 00:34:05,224
want good

819
00:34:05,224 --> 00:34:05,604
things for

820
00:34:05,604 --> 00:34:05,774
us.

821
00:34:05,774 --> 00:34:08,634
And he wants us to bring our
petitions to him and our needs

822
00:34:08,634 --> 00:34:11,024
to him because he is our father.

823
00:34:11,354 --> 00:34:15,204
And, you know, once again, kind
of going back to God would never

824
00:34:15,204 --> 00:34:18,334
have a son is like, they don't
look at Allah as their father.

825
00:34:18,844 --> 00:34:23,564
They, they look at him as God,
as, as Allah, as, as, as the high

826
00:34:23,564 --> 00:34:28,144
one, who's worthy of worship and
that if I want to be in paradise

827
00:34:28,144 --> 00:34:30,224
one day that I'll submit to him

828
00:34:30,554 --> 00:34:30,724
as

829
00:34:30,724 --> 00:34:30,814
a

830
00:34:31,214 --> 00:34:31,674
far and

831
00:34:31,674 --> 00:34:32,434
distant king

832
00:34:32,884 --> 00:34:35,444
and So I hate to speak generally in
that sense, because of course there,

833
00:34:35,524 --> 00:34:40,674
there are Muslims who, who, who are
more personal and how they view a

834
00:34:40,674 --> 00:34:45,614
lot, but generally they, they look at
the Christian image of who God is and

835
00:34:45,614 --> 00:34:47,814
say, no, you guys have them all wrong.

836
00:34:47,874 --> 00:34:48,774
He, he's not.

837
00:34:48,829 --> 00:34:51,619
He's not concerned with
your day to day life.

838
00:34:51,619 --> 00:34:55,079
He's not concerned with  becoming one
of you and redeeming you from your sin.

839
00:34:55,089 --> 00:34:57,819
You have to submit to him and please him.

840
00:34:58,189 --> 00:35:01,239
And ultimately that's why the
communication of the gospel can

841
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:05,619
be so tricky because yeah, like I
said, we, we, we use the same names.

842
00:35:05,889 --> 00:35:08,739
We use a lot of the same
words, but ultimately who, the

843
00:35:08,739 --> 00:35:09,919
question of who and what is

844
00:35:09,929 --> 00:35:12,989
God is so different and
it can make things really

845
00:35:12,989 --> 00:35:14,951
difficult to, to communicate with them.

846
00:35:14,951 --> 00:35:18,041
I actually do think Christians need
to get a more holistic view of that.

847
00:35:18,051 --> 00:35:19,941
Like we we greatly

848
00:35:19,941 --> 00:35:20,601
lack

849
00:35:21,001 --> 00:35:21,191
The

850
00:35:21,211 --> 00:35:26,941
call to submission and obedience we
do buy too much into cheap grace and,

851
00:35:26,941 --> 00:35:28,701
and therefore validate their, their

852
00:35:28,701 --> 00:35:31,791
claims about us, but that doesn't
make us wrong about the gospel.

853
00:35:32,301 --> 00:35:35,461
And, and ultimately that's what I
think is, is the, the invitation

854
00:35:35,461 --> 00:35:39,291
to the Islamic world, which is, no,
there's a, there's a fuller and more

855
00:35:39,291 --> 00:35:40,901
beautiful understanding of who God is.

856
00:35:41,446 --> 00:35:46,586
And what he's done for humanity, and it's
found in the person of Jesus, who you

857
00:35:46,586 --> 00:35:51,416
say was just a prophet pointing towards
pointing towards submission to a law.

858
00:35:51,816 --> 00:35:51,976
Yeah.

859
00:35:51,976 --> 00:35:52,616
Mike: Islamic

860
00:35:52,616 --> 00:35:55,246
faith seems to me and I haven't studied

861
00:35:55,256 --> 00:35:55,646
Jeremy: it nearly

862
00:35:55,646 --> 00:35:55,726
as

863
00:35:55,726 --> 00:35:55,876
much

864
00:35:55,876 --> 00:35:55,946
as

865
00:35:55,946 --> 00:35:56,036
Mike: you

866
00:35:56,036 --> 00:35:56,166
have.

867
00:35:56,166 --> 00:35:57,006
so I'm really curious if

868
00:35:57,006 --> 00:35:57,406
this seems

869
00:35:57,426 --> 00:35:58,216
accurate to you,

870
00:35:58,216 --> 00:35:58,536
but

871
00:35:58,956 --> 00:36:00,016
it seems

872
00:36:00,016 --> 00:36:00,136
like

873
00:36:00,136 --> 00:36:00,276
what

874
00:36:00,276 --> 00:36:00,536
you would

875
00:36:00,536 --> 00:36:00,996
get if

876
00:36:00,996 --> 00:36:01,096
you

877
00:36:01,096 --> 00:36:02,396
took Christianity?

878
00:36:02,796 --> 00:36:03,646
Removed

879
00:36:03,906 --> 00:36:04,086
the

880
00:36:04,086 --> 00:36:04,956
cross.

881
00:36:05,446 --> 00:36:06,056
and then

882
00:36:06,216 --> 00:36:06,466
let

883
00:36:06,466 --> 00:36:06,726
it

884
00:36:07,166 --> 00:36:12,056
develop in the hands
of mankind for 150 200

885
00:36:12,216 --> 00:36:12,726
Jeremy: years.

886
00:36:13,086 --> 00:36:13,446
Yeah.

887
00:36:13,451 --> 00:36:17,581
I mean, I, I think you're probably
like, kind of onto something there.

888
00:36:17,631 --> 00:36:19,251
I think if you take the cross.

889
00:36:19,651 --> 00:36:23,031
And the resurrection, of
course, out of Christianity, you

890
00:36:23,031 --> 00:36:24,271
really just have a new branch

891
00:36:24,271 --> 00:36:24,401
of

892
00:36:24,401 --> 00:36:25,001
Judaism,

893
00:36:25,331 --> 00:36:29,381
, and so you find yourself with a lot of
law and you find yourself with a lot

894
00:36:29,381 --> 00:36:31,511
of, like, just trying to please God.

895
00:36:31,731 --> 00:36:33,871
Have you ever read the
cross of Christ by John

896
00:36:33,881 --> 00:36:34,281
Stott?

897
00:36:34,821 --> 00:36:35,471
Mike: No

898
00:36:35,626 --> 00:36:38,586
Jeremy: You would, you would really
like it because you like Anglican

899
00:36:38,586 --> 00:36:44,966
theologians and  he just talks about how
Christians have really forsaken the weight

900
00:36:44,976 --> 00:36:50,876
of the cross and the work of the
cross that we find kind of this.

901
00:36:50,936 --> 00:36:54,136
Even bigger emphasis on the resurrection
once you really understand the cross.

902
00:36:54,606 --> 00:36:58,846
And so when you think about Islam,
and then you also think about a cross

903
00:36:58,846 --> 00:37:03,246
list Christianity is, yeah, you end
up with like, Oh, it's really all

904
00:37:03,246 --> 00:37:06,206
about what I can do then when the
cross and the resurrection actually

905
00:37:06,206 --> 00:37:08,586
show us that you can't do anything.

906
00:37:08,587 --> 00:37:08,830
Right.

907
00:37:08,830 --> 00:37:13,386
Paul in Galatians talks about how
the law was a tutor, you know,

908
00:37:13,386 --> 00:37:17,866
it pointed towards our need for
God's  rescue God's redemption.

909
00:37:18,176 --> 00:37:21,976
And so, yeah, so I think, yeah, I think
for Christians to imagine what it would

910
00:37:21,986 --> 00:37:27,696
be like to not have Jesus in the cross and
the work of the resurrection and what we

911
00:37:27,756 --> 00:37:32,966
received from God in those things, that's,
yeah, I mean, that's the state of, of

912
00:37:32,976 --> 00:37:33,256
not just

913
00:37:33,286 --> 00:37:33,886
Muslims, but

914
00:37:34,046 --> 00:37:34,116
I

915
00:37:34,126 --> 00:37:36,506
think that's, that's
what we have to offer.

916
00:37:36,786 --> 00:37:37,786
You know, that's the message of

917
00:37:37,786 --> 00:37:37,856
the

918
00:37:38,031 --> 00:37:38,841
Mike: across the US, right?

919
00:37:38,841 --> 00:37:39,531
So you mentioned

920
00:37:39,976 --> 00:37:44,316
Does the Quran have stories
of Jesus, like the gospels

921
00:37:44,356 --> 00:37:44,476
Jeremy: of

922
00:37:44,476 --> 00:37:44,706
him

923
00:37:44,716 --> 00:37:45,441
walking and

924
00:37:45,441 --> 00:37:45,746
talking

925
00:37:45,746 --> 00:37:45,846
and

926
00:37:45,846 --> 00:37:46,166
doing,

927
00:37:46,176 --> 00:37:47,826
I mean, not a ton, not a ton.

928
00:37:47,856 --> 00:37:51,376
I mean, so they talk about, Yeah, they
talk about him as a baby, and then

929
00:37:51,376 --> 00:37:55,486
they, they talk about him in, in his
ministry, like what the gospels, but

930
00:37:55,486 --> 00:37:59,896
yeah, I mean, but their mention of
Jesus and their mention of Christianity

931
00:37:59,906 --> 00:38:06,096
is anytime, usually, usually if Jesus
or, you know, the book, what would

932
00:38:06,106 --> 00:38:09,556
they usually refer to Christians
and Jews as the people of the book?

933
00:38:10,106 --> 00:38:14,586
Usually those things are mentioned to
further validate the message of the book.

934
00:38:15,136 --> 00:38:18,906
The Quran or what the Quran didn't
exist at that point, but the message

935
00:38:18,906 --> 00:38:23,676
of what they call the UMA, which is
the collection of the early Muslims.

936
00:38:23,936 --> 00:38:24,186
Yeah.

937
00:38:24,186 --> 00:38:28,816
So, so, so, so, so Issa
Issa is a signpost.

938
00:38:29,411 --> 00:38:29,581
In

939
00:38:29,581 --> 00:38:32,101
the Quran for Muhammad

940
00:38:32,151 --> 00:38:32,791
and

941
00:38:32,921 --> 00:38:33,101
the

942
00:38:33,101 --> 00:38:33,401
message

943
00:38:33,401 --> 00:38:33,521
of

944
00:38:33,521 --> 00:38:34,071
Allah that's

945
00:38:34,071 --> 00:38:34,421
being

946
00:38:34,801 --> 00:38:35,301
recited

947
00:38:35,341 --> 00:38:35,971
in the Quran.

948
00:38:36,061 --> 00:38:36,381
Yeah.

949
00:38:37,281 --> 00:38:37,781
This is the problem.

950
00:38:37,891 --> 00:38:38,231
Exactly.

951
00:38:38,391 --> 00:38:38,811
Exactly.

952
00:38:38,811 --> 00:38:43,041
I mean, the, the role that
Jesus plays in Islam is the role

953
00:38:43,091 --> 00:38:43,701
that

954
00:38:44,211 --> 00:38:49,701
Moses played or David played, or, you
know, pick, pick a old Testament prophet.

955
00:38:49,701 --> 00:38:51,771
It's pointing towards
something greater to come.

956
00:38:52,201 --> 00:38:55,141
And that ultimately, like they
even look at the New Testament

957
00:38:55,141 --> 00:38:57,181
where Jesus says, Hey, there's
going to be one that comes after.

958
00:38:57,581 --> 00:39:00,361
Me who's going to bring
comfort and Christians would

959
00:39:00,361 --> 00:39:01,361
say, that's the Holy spirit.

960
00:39:01,581 --> 00:39:06,501
A lot of Muslims say he was talking about
Muhammad and so they view Muhammad as

961
00:39:06,821 --> 00:39:08,541
the highest prophet, the last prophet.

962
00:39:08,551 --> 00:39:09,001
So, yeah.

963
00:39:09,281 --> 00:39:09,951
So, so

964
00:39:10,061 --> 00:39:10,111
Mike: a

965
00:39:10,111 --> 00:39:11,221
conversation with

966
00:39:11,531 --> 00:39:11,631
a

967
00:39:11,631 --> 00:39:12,591
Muslim

968
00:39:12,591 --> 00:39:12,901
Should

969
00:39:12,901 --> 00:39:13,641
the goal

970
00:39:13,691 --> 00:39:14,811
Of the conversation.

971
00:39:15,091 --> 00:39:20,041
as we attempt to reach them with
the gospel, be to point out these

972
00:39:20,041 --> 00:39:23,391
differences in, between Esau and Jesus?

973
00:39:23,741 --> 00:39:24,361
Or

974
00:39:24,461 --> 00:39:26,791
Jeremy: I think, I think in
some sense, you're going to

975
00:39:26,791 --> 00:39:26,851
have a

976
00:39:26,851 --> 00:39:27,041
hard

977
00:39:27,041 --> 00:39:27,291
time

978
00:39:27,561 --> 00:39:27,741
if

979
00:39:27,741 --> 00:39:30,261
you're, if you're avoiding
that, you know what I mean?

980
00:39:30,271 --> 00:39:33,481
But , I think it can get very
argumentative and you can put somebody on

981
00:39:33,481 --> 00:39:35,641
the defensive by, you know, kind of like

982
00:39:35,901 --> 00:39:36,231
when you were

983
00:39:36,231 --> 00:39:36,311
a

984
00:39:36,311 --> 00:39:36,791
kid

985
00:39:37,131 --> 00:39:38,281
find the 10 differences

986
00:39:38,281 --> 00:39:39,281
between these two pictures

987
00:39:39,311 --> 00:39:39,771
kind of thing.

988
00:39:40,171 --> 00:39:45,011
What I prefer to do is just realize
most Muslims as, as most non

989
00:39:45,011 --> 00:39:46,831
believers have not read the Bible.

990
00:39:47,231 --> 00:39:50,171
And so I firmly believe that the

991
00:39:50,171 --> 00:39:50,451
best

992
00:39:50,451 --> 00:39:50,711
thing

993
00:39:50,721 --> 00:39:50,931
is

994
00:39:50,931 --> 00:39:51,311
just,

995
00:39:51,711 --> 00:39:53,611
are they willing to
read the Bible with you?

996
00:39:54,011 --> 00:39:54,721
And.

997
00:39:55,076 --> 00:40:00,076
If they are, then show them
who Jesus actually was and

998
00:40:00,086 --> 00:40:01,946
allow the Holy Spirit to do

999
00:40:01,946 --> 00:40:02,376
the work

1000
00:40:02,386 --> 00:40:02,656
of

1001
00:40:02,686 --> 00:40:03,396
convincing.

1002
00:40:03,506 --> 00:40:06,476
Now you're going to be there to
help navigate some of the questions

1003
00:40:06,806 --> 00:40:11,536
and, and point out, okay, this is
who Christians actually say Jesus

1004
00:40:11,776 --> 00:40:16,466
is and was and, and then just
prayerfully walk them through that.

1005
00:40:16,686 --> 00:40:17,616
Now there will be times

1006
00:40:17,626 --> 00:40:17,996
Mike: for.

1007
00:40:18,416 --> 00:40:20,686
Jeremy: You know, debate and that's
where apologetics and things like

1008
00:40:20,736 --> 00:40:22,216
that comes in and understanding.

1009
00:40:22,426 --> 00:40:26,036
But because, you know, because
most of us aren't textual critics,

1010
00:40:26,041 --> 00:40:26,181
Mike: like

1011
00:40:26,191 --> 00:40:26,601
we're not

1012
00:40:27,206 --> 00:40:28,966
Jeremy: Greek and Hebrew
scholars and things like that.

1013
00:40:28,966 --> 00:40:33,536
I try to,  avoid getting too
deep into the validity of the

1014
00:40:33,536 --> 00:40:34,886
Quran versus the validity of the

1015
00:40:34,896 --> 00:40:35,616
new Testament.

1016
00:40:35,896 --> 00:40:39,636
Even though, I mean, the new Testament
greatly wins out in that, in, in like the

1017
00:40:39,636 --> 00:40:42,046
historicity and the validity of the texts.

1018
00:40:42,106 --> 00:40:44,826
But at the end of the day, I think
because most of us, the whole point is.

1019
00:40:45,226 --> 00:40:47,726
I want this person to
know Christ  if they're

1020
00:40:47,726 --> 00:40:48,186
willing,

1021
00:40:48,636 --> 00:40:50,066
, introduce them to him through the word.

1022
00:40:50,066 --> 00:40:53,086
If they're not willing, then
that doesn't mean you're not that

1023
00:40:53,086 --> 00:40:54,896
you're done with a person, but.

1024
00:40:55,296 --> 00:40:56,306
You know, I mean, that

1025
00:40:56,306 --> 00:40:56,956
person, we

1026
00:40:56,956 --> 00:40:57,226
would say

1027
00:40:57,226 --> 00:40:57,676
that person's

1028
00:40:57,676 --> 00:40:58,056
probably

1029
00:40:58,056 --> 00:40:58,386
not

1030
00:40:58,486 --> 00:40:58,576
a

1031
00:40:58,576 --> 00:40:58,876
green

1032
00:40:58,876 --> 00:40:59,086
light

1033
00:40:59,086 --> 00:40:59,216
for

1034
00:40:59,216 --> 00:40:59,736
the gospel.

1035
00:40:59,736 --> 00:41:00,276
You know what I mean?

1036
00:41:00,366 --> 00:41:03,566
And continue in a relationship,
continue having those conversations.

1037
00:41:03,566 --> 00:41:08,266
But if somebody is willing to sit down and
read the scriptures with you, then that's,

1038
00:41:08,356 --> 00:41:11,576
I mean, that's, that's the beginning of
hopefully what will be a fruitful journey

1039
00:41:11,596 --> 00:41:12,146
is to them

1040
00:41:12,466 --> 00:41:13,906
going from Issa to,

1041
00:41:14,206 --> 00:41:14,396
to

1042
00:41:14,656 --> 00:41:15,246
Jesus

1043
00:41:15,646 --> 00:41:18,176
to, to Yeshua, to use his,
you know, Arabic name.

1044
00:41:18,176 --> 00:41:21,406
But you know, And really beginning
to understand, okay, no, he,

1045
00:41:21,586 --> 00:41:26,266
he died for humanity took on
the curse and was raised again.

1046
00:41:26,346 --> 00:41:27,906
And I can be forgiven now.

1047
00:41:28,146 --> 00:41:30,596
And that was the whole point of
that conversation, which is trying

1048
00:41:30,596 --> 00:41:33,256
to get our friend there in the
coffee shop to understand like,

1049
00:41:33,256 --> 00:41:34,826
no, your sins can be forgiven now.

1050
00:41:35,206 --> 00:41:41,666
And you can live a life of freedom and
liberty still submitting to God, but being

1051
00:41:41,666 --> 00:41:43,916
known by him and knowing him in return.

1052
00:41:44,236 --> 00:41:45,376
And that's the invitation to the

1053
00:41:45,581 --> 00:41:47,100
Mike: to the Islamic world.

1054
00:41:48,331 --> 00:41:48,671
Jeremy: So if

1055
00:41:48,716 --> 00:41:53,832
Mike: there's a Muslim listening
to this who I would say, if

1056
00:41:53,832 --> 00:41:57,171
somebody's listening to this and they

1057
00:41:57,211 --> 00:41:58,287
Jeremy: of it at this point.

1058
00:41:58,287 --> 00:42:00,523
Is there anything that you
would say directly to them?

1059
00:42:00,573 --> 00:42:04,698
I would, I would say, I mean, if somebody
is listening to this and they come

1060
00:42:04,698 --> 00:42:07,008
from a Muslim background, I mean, along

1061
00:42:07,220 --> 00:42:07,728
Mike: Muslim,

1062
00:42:07,918 --> 00:42:10,328
Jeremy: know, a tremendous amount
of resources there was an, there was

1063
00:42:10,328 --> 00:42:14,688
an apologist, an author named Nabil
Qureshi who wrote, Tremendous book.

1064
00:42:15,068 --> 00:42:18,898
He was a, he was a Muslim and he was a
very devout Muslim and he wrote a book

1065
00:42:18,908 --> 00:42:22,258
about his testimony of finding Christ
called seeking Allah finding Jesus.

1066
00:42:22,798 --> 00:42:23,708
I would read that.

1067
00:42:23,818 --> 00:42:23,898
Yeah.

1068
00:42:24,278 --> 00:42:30,618
There is a a version of the Quran which
is, is highly regarded not just within

1069
00:42:30,618 --> 00:42:35,338
Christianity but even most religious
scholars would say that it's called

1070
00:42:35,338 --> 00:42:40,128
the Quran with Christian commentary,
which was, is a, is a very faithful

1071
00:42:40,128 --> 00:42:44,108
translation of the Quran with Christian
commentary written by a scholar named Dr.

1072
00:42:44,108 --> 00:42:47,658
Gordon Nicol who I've had who've actually
had on the podcast many years ago.

1073
00:42:48,068 --> 00:42:52,258
But beyond that is if, if
Christ is calling you To

1074
00:42:52,278 --> 00:42:53,068
know him,

1075
00:42:53,468 --> 00:42:56,208
look into those resources, but
then also just find, find a

1076
00:42:56,208 --> 00:42:59,288
believer, find a Christian to
walk through the Bible with you.

1077
00:42:59,288 --> 00:43:03,338
And if you can't, if you can't find
that, then just open up to the gospel

1078
00:43:03,338 --> 00:43:07,298
of John and just start in John one
and read about who Jesus actually

1079
00:43:07,588 --> 00:43:12,768
was, who he is, what he's doing now on
our behalf and what he's calling you

1080
00:43:12,768 --> 00:43:14,938
to, which is to a deep relationship.

1081
00:43:15,133 --> 00:43:18,753
With god with allah,
that goes far beyond just

1082
00:43:18,773 --> 00:43:19,273
Mike: submitting

1083
00:43:19,273 --> 00:43:19,773
to him

1084
00:43:20,183 --> 00:43:20,903
Jeremy: But actually

1085
00:43:21,033 --> 00:43:21,603
knowing

1086
00:43:21,603 --> 00:43:21,733
him

1087
00:43:21,733 --> 00:43:22,713
and being loved

1088
00:43:22,733 --> 00:43:22,913
by

1089
00:43:22,943 --> 00:43:23,143
Mike: him