Heather Shannon (00:01.594)
friends. We're here with an amazing guest episode today. We're going to be talking about sex and aging and how to support your partner during menopause and keep things fun and exciting and sexy. to help us do that, we have Karen Bigman here. She is a sex and relationship coach for people in midlife and also a certified menopause coach. So welcome, Karen.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (00:25.41)
Thank you for having me. Great to be here.
Heather Shannon (00:27.096)
Yeah, I'm excited. And Karen also hosts the Taboo to Truth podcast. So if you guys are ever looking for another podcast, you can check that out. But yeah, you were just saying before we hit record that you're just so excited to do this work. So I'd love to hear more about why. What's so exciting about this work for you?
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (00:47.438)
What's exciting is I've always been looking where I fit in the world and I've never quite figured it out until I met the sex positive community doing this work and I went like, that's where I'm supposed to be. So that's really what's so exciting about it. But sort of back up, when I started the podcast, it took me a little while to figure out like which direction I was gonna go with it.
Heather Shannon (00:58.288)
You
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (01:10.572)
I got some education, did a certified sex educator education through the Sexual Health Alliance, the menopause coach certification. people keep asking me, like, why did you do this? How did you get here? Because it was actually as I was approaching my 60th birthday that I began this work. And when I start to really dig deep and go further with it, I realized that the journey actually started 10 years ago when I got divorced and...
Heather Shannon (01:16.229)
Yeah.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (01:35.84)
I was out there dating and having more sex than I'd had in a really long time. But I was having the orgasm challenge and that I wasn't having orgasms and that really was a bummer. And so I felt like the universe was punishing me and fast forward, ended up, it really was. It was like, seriously, like no sex for years and now I finally get it and I can't even get off on it.
Heather Shannon (01:40.912)
That's exciting.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (02:04.589)
But I ended up at a sexual medicine practice and they partner me with a nurse practitioner who was the medical advisor and a sex therapist. So I would not have imagined myself meeting a sex therapist. I don't even think I knew that they existed. And if I did, probably thought what a lot of people think sex therapists are back in the day. But what was so cool is at the first appointment, they start asking you all the personal questions about
how you have sex and orgasms and could you orgasm before? And then they're like, did you ever use a vibrator? And like, I like to say, I probably turned the same color as my hair, which was not pink back then, but I was like, a vibrator. And they gave me a bullet and they said, go in the room next door and try it. Word of God, right then and there.
Heather Shannon (02:52.89)
No way. Write that in there. It'll masturbate for us medically.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (02:58.505)
Exactly. And I literally, I don't think it took me five minutes and they were like, that was fast. I'm like, my God, my life has just been changed by this vibrator. Yeah. Yeah. So that was that. And then they found my testosterone levels were low and testosterone contributes to libido and orgasm. So that combination was, was the, the magic bullet, if you will.
And then, yeah, and so I started being able to really talk about it a lot more easily from those experiences and going to see her and I would tell them all my dating escapades and it was always a ton of fun, like, what's with this guy? What's going on? And it literally was like therapy and sex in the same office. And so that now I look back and say, well, that was probably planting a seed here that someday I would
tell the world about sex, I just didn't know what that was gonna be.
Heather Shannon (03:55.92)
That's so cool. And then I love your focus on Sex After 50 because lots of clients that I've worked with, I think, have this kind of unconscious belief of, like, oh, well, we're.
or reproductive years or, you know, we're not trying to have children or we've had hysterectomy or something. There's just sort of this kind of subtle unconscious thing hanging out back here that winds up negatively affecting their sex life too, this like belief system. So I'm glad that you're just out there being like, hey, let's have more better, exciting sex now.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (04:36.461)
Yeah, and I'm living it. So that's even the I'm single and dating and having fun. So and I'm 62. So it's really true. And in fact, research is now showing that women are having the best sex of their lives after menopause. So this myth that the society has taught us that we're washed up, let's get rid of that. Not true.
Heather Shannon (04:41.904)
It's the floor!
Heather Shannon (04:56.816)
Yeah. I think society's really been changing in the last like five to 10 years with women as they're aging. And I'm so excited to see it, you know, because it's like, I'm 45. you know, we're everyone listening, we're all only getting older. Right? You can't go the other way. So it's like, we should hope that things are fantastic as we age. but also, I think because I'm in that kind of perimenopause window.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (05:13.725)
You
Heather Shannon (05:25.484)
It's like, I'm experiencing some like vulva dryness, but my estrogen levels were fine. you know, and so it's kind of this like mystery thing. And so many of my friends are experiencing anxiety or sleep issues or changes in their sex drive. I've also met people going through or recently gone through menopause who have like a higher sex drive than ever, which is kind of cool and interesting. But.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (05:51.841)
Yeah.
Heather Shannon (05:52.664)
Yeah, like what does it take in your opinion? What does it take to feel good in your body as it's changing and still have a great sex life?
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (06:03.757)
I think it's a couple of things, but I just want to for one second go back to one thing you said that is something that I think we need to demystify, that you said my estrogen levels are fine. The menopause society says that you treat symptoms you don't treat estrogen levels because when you're going through perimenopause, your levels are one morning, they'll be perfect. The next day you'll have none. So I'd just caution on if you feel like crap, talk to your doctor about what can be done about it. Forget about what your level is today.
Heather Shannon (06:30.052)
I did, but I got some vaginal estrogen cream anyways because I actually talked to AI. It was actually, it's not supposed to be your doctor, I know that.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (06:36.397)
you
Heather Shannon (06:37.07)
But I am obsessed with learning information about the body. And so it said something like, your levels can seem normal for years, even though symptoms have started. So I think that's really, really important. And my provider is great. If I ask for something, he knows what a weird, obsessive person I am about the research. So he's like, OK, yeah, go ahead try that. Let me know. Do you have any questions? I'm like, no, thanks.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (07:01.665)
Yeah, yeah, good, good. I'm glad to hear it. And what I love, I love speaking to younger women who are aware of things around menopause. Now, I was fortunate then when I was around your age and I started to have hot flashes. My doctor was, even though this was right around when the WHI study came out and said, my God, breast cancer, breast cancer, And I asked her recently, like, how were you ready to give me hormone therapy when nobody was doing it? And she said, cause I read the research and I saw that it was, that was not the case.
Heather Shannon (07:19.482)
you
Heather Shannon (07:25.988)
Yeah. Yup. Yes.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (07:30.647)
But I did have heart palpitations before that for a while, went for a full heart workup. And it was definitely menopause. Nobody ever said to me it could be menopause. Yeah. So anyway, but back to good sex after later in life.
Heather Shannon (07:43.248)
I feel like going through this stuff is how you get to the good sex, you know, it's like we can't ignore the body changing and I know for me it's kind of like
Why is my fucking bulb a dry? You know, like it could be frustrating. We have all the emotions around it. And then you're like trying to put the pieces together. And even though there's more information now, and I know like Dr. Kelly Casperson was doing some amazing, like advocating with the FDA for women with testosterone. And I think you mentioned yours had been low. So we all have just different things going on hormonally. But then I think that helps support us feeling like, oh, now I'm in the mood. My body's doing what I want it to do. And OK.
firing on all cylinders, you know?
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (08:27.329)
Right, and it's not just helping with your libido and your dryness, it also helps have better orgasms and reduce urinary tract infections and helps your skin. I mean, I you know, I've been...
Heather Shannon (08:37.113)
Wait, say more about the orgasm one. didn't know that. the vaginal estrogen cream actually helps your orgasm even though, well guess maybe because it's a local.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (08:48.973)
Yeah, it's, I mean, you're not using it while you're having sex, but you're using it intimately in between and it keeps the tissue healthy, but it increases blood flow to the area. And so not only are you having more, but you have better orgasms when you're on hormone therapy locally. Yeah. Yeah. And having throwing a touch, a touch, you don't need a ton of testosterone, just a little bit. Just a little.
Heather Shannon (09:03.363)
I have to go pick up my prescription.
Heather Shannon (09:12.089)
I think my testosterone is actually in the high end of normal. I think I'm pretty good. Yeah. But so I think the thing I saw was that like estrogen cream has become like a first line therapy for UTIs. And I was like, this makes so much sense. You know, I think that we just we keep trying to treat stuff with antibiotics that like fucks up our whole microbiome. And I'm like, please just not do that anymore. So I love that there is alternatives. And I'm excited to just like let's everyone listening take notes.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (09:14.851)
that's good. That's good. Yeah. Yeah.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (09:41.07)
Yeah, what is Dr. Rachel Rubin, another one of Kelly's peers says, I would be giving vaginal estrogen to my 85 year old grandmother. Like everyone should be on it forever because now that they've taken the big news in the past couple of months was that they've removed some of the warnings that were scaring people away. it's been proven not to, and I am not a medical provider disclaimer, I'm not licensed, as a, right.
Heather Shannon (09:50.991)
Wow.
Heather Shannon (09:58.532)
Yes, so excited.
Heather Shannon (10:04.815)
Right. We're just telling you the facts of what doctors are saying.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (10:08.679)
Yeah, there is no link between topical vaginal estrogen and breast cancer. And many studies are proving it now. So you can look up the research.
Heather Shannon (10:13.839)
Yeah
Yeah. Yeah, it's like we just don't have to suffer as much. I think that's part of embracing pleasure. What if we just let ourselves suffer less?
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (10:23.735)
Yes.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (10:28.819)
That's but that's the truth around sex in general, right? Like we're not meant like we're supposed to suffer like that that is our our our crudo crudo crudo What's the word i'm looking for or motto, whatever? The thing the thing would you lose words?
Heather Shannon (10:32.014)
Yeah.
Heather Shannon (10:39.393)
I need this. I'm saying, yes, I, whatever. Y'all know what we're talking about. That's fine.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (10:47.917)
that suffering, we're just supposed to suffer. And it goes right into the bedroom where, I mean, to this day, I'm so conditioned that if it's taking too long, it's taking too long, then let me just break out my vibrator and make it go quickly, because I don't want you to have to stay down there for that long or whatever it is. I have to hurry up and get it done because I'm inconveniencing somebody. So it's getting past that.
Heather Shannon (11:07.364)
God.
I just, it makes me so angry how we've been conditioned as women. I also wonder if estrogen just makes us very sweet or something. I don't know how much is biological, how much is conditioning, but yeah, it's like let's just let other people speak for themselves. And I think my journey is an empath. I don't know if you're kind of an empathy sensitive person. I feel like almost all the people I talk to are.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (11:33.067)
In this world, I mean, you gotta be, right? Because if you're not, then you don't want to be helping people,
Heather Shannon (11:35.983)
Maybe that's true. But yeah, it's like we all have to kind of work on the boundaries, you know, and it's not that we don't care about other people when we have boundaries. It's just like, can't go down with the ship, you know, got to like take care of yourself first, put on your own oxygen mask. Yeah.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (11:48.897)
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And your orgasm is your responsibility. So you have to learn that too.
Heather Shannon (11:57.264)
That's a really good point, you know? And also, it's like you have to trust your partner. I think we have to trust each other with saying no. You know? Like, we have to trust our partner will say no or say that they're tired if it's actually been too long for them.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (12:10.637)
Yes. I think to back to, back to your original question was how do we, know, why, why and how do we have better sex? And I think, um, it's a combination of things. think there's some, some actual, um, neurological changes. If there's a, an amazing researcher, Dr. Lisa Musconi, she wrote the book, the menopause brain, and she's done all sorts of, um, research. And one of the things that happens to women after menopause is we have more of the, I don't give a fuck gene. So I don't know that's the right. Yes. Yes.
Heather Shannon (12:37.581)
I'm very into that, Jean.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (12:40.493)
So we have less of a negativity bias and more of a positivity bias. we really don't care as much. I think that's part of it. think, and this one's a tough one, but I think resigning yourself to the fact that your body is going to change and that it's just what it is. And no matter how many times the diet fads tell you you're going to lose the belly fat and whatever it is, it's just what it is. It's just, I've been the same weight for years and my
Heather Shannon (12:48.975)
It's your fault.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (13:09.271)
body, my clothes don't fit the same way. Like it's just going to happen to you. And you got to just say, look, do I want to forego pleasure because of something? And by the way, and this is as a single, someone who's been single on and off for the last 12 years, guys don't give a shit. They are so happy. I mean, in a heterosexual situation, they're so happy to be lying or the naked woman who's willing and wanting to have sex with them. They're like, I don't see your roles.
I anything. I don't see the dry vagina. just see a vulva. I see a vagina.
Heather Shannon (13:44.026)
feel like we have to just embrace our own beauty. And I think we sometimes have that experience when we look at pictures of ourselves when we were younger, and we're like, my god, I was so gorgeous. And then I'm like, I didn't feel gorgeous. I was always thinking about what could be improved. And then you're like, wait, that still applies to me now. Me in five or 10 years is going to be like, I was so gorgeous then, and I was still worrying about it.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (14:05.601)
Yes, yes. I love that, you know, we learn in coaching and I'm sure you learn in therapy too, that like, would you say what you say yourself to your best friend and practicing self-compassion, how important it is. And it's like, it sounds like all this like buzzwords and stuff like that, but it is so true. I do. I like, have my own, you know, body image issues. had a dad who told me I had a pot belly at critical years when I was like 13. And so I got a pot belly 50 years later, it's still a pot belly regardless what it looks like.
But it's just saying, would you say that to your best friend who's also by the way named Karen? Like, no way.
Heather Shannon (14:41.785)
you
Heather Shannon (14:45.679)
And I think for me, it actually really helps to see the beauty in other people and then realize like, that applies to me too. So sometimes I think we start from the inside out. Sometimes I think we start from the outside in. And for this area, it's helpful for me to go from the outside in.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (15:03.831)
That's That's good. Because that's whatever it takes. It's to also see that the world around you is not judging you by your pot belly or whatever it is that you have that you don't like.
Heather Shannon (15:12.845)
Right. And I think men also are like so much less judgmental, like you're saying. I'm like, men think that like, probably half of women out there are stunning, you know? And it's like, I think I grew up being like, I have to be like the best or the thinnest or the whatever to like, be good enough. it's like, what a terrible perspective that was. It's not serving me.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (15:37.14)
And I think some guys think I'm too skinny. They think you're too skinny. They don't even want you. You think you're not skinny enough, but they think you're too skinny. I had a guy, my God, I didn't realize what an insult it was till after it happened, but I was at this local event here. They have a bunch of men with their cars. They bring their fancy cars in the parking lot in the corner. And I went just to see it, and some guy looks at me and he goes, do you need to run around in the shower to get wet? And I'm like, what is he talking about?
He saying like, you're so skinny that you have, you don't hit the shower head. And I was like, that was like offensive. I've never had anyone say that, it was a little bizarre, but it was also telling that like, I see myself, I still can't get rid of those images that I was taught or those thoughts that I was taught by my dad. And now I'm like, this is quite the opposite. That was offensive, but this is quite the opposite. Anyway.
Heather Shannon (16:11.799)
This is a strange insult, yeah.
Heather Shannon (16:30.791)
my god. And also, let's just quit commenting on people's bodies and let's just tell them how beautiful they are. Men and women, regardless of gender. Just say like, hey, you look lovely. Great. Otherwise, give it.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (16:34.507)
Yes, yes. Thank you. Thank you. Yep. Yep.
Yeah. Yes. Yep. Exactly. And we, as women particularly, have to say thank you. Not like, no, you must be, I must be, it's because of the new shirt I'm wearing or the, you know, I've been sick and I didn't eat for two weeks. No, thank you.
Heather Shannon (16:50.115)
Yeah. Yeah!
Heather Shannon (16:59.919)
Yeah.
Heather Shannon (17:05.847)
just act as if, you know? But also for me, like my sex drive feels so related to like how I'm feeling in my skin. And I'm curious if that's something you see, you know, in your work with midlife people.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (17:20.781)
I mean, definitely when we feel good about ourselves, we have the ability to feel good and we want to feel good. I also think it's being an end when we feel good about ourselves. We attract people who feel good about themselves and make us feel good. Or maybe they don't need to make us, but we don't need to be made to feel good because we are around people that are lifting us up. And that has been one of the things that I have really, really learned in the last five years, particularly, is to
let go of not just like what's not serving me in my head, but the people that don't serve me. And that's not just in male or female relationships, but friendships that don't serve me, that bring me down, family members that do that. All that is part of getting to a point in my life where I'm like, this is the next part. This is what someone I just heard say yesterday, I've lived more than I'm going to live. And so this is the part of my life where I don't need to live with people who are just not.
giving me anything. I don't enjoy their company. They don't teach me anything. They're not fun. Like, it's not worth it.
Heather Shannon (18:21.785)
Hey!
Yeah, that kind of goes back to the less fucks given after menopause.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (18:28.119)
Yeah. Yes. Definitely more fucks, but less fucks given.
Heather Shannon (18:36.495)
into some kind of t-shirt, Karen.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (18:38.773)
Yes, I did good idea.
Heather Shannon (18:42.944)
my god. What are some of the most common struggles you see in people over 50 who are working on their sex?
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (18:50.317)
I think they give up on sex. I don't want it anymore for whatever reason. I don't feel it. It hurts. Then I don't need it. Definitely we talked about body image. It's also the prioritizing of it. It's just not something... don't need it and it's not that important to me anymore. Of course, now I'm blanking because you asked me the question.
Heather Shannon (18:59.172)
Mm-hmm.
Heather Shannon (19:17.551)
you
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (19:17.557)
I know they're out there because I talk about them all the time.
Heather Shannon (19:20.073)
Yeah, yeah, no, I just want, yeah, mean what are some of the common obstacles, I think, I guess I'm wondering like how much are they different as we age and how much are they kind of the same as we might see with someone younger.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (19:33.39)
I think some are the same. think there's shame as the other one that's a big one. And I see that in men and in women. So women, we know we've been shamed forever, right? But for men, there's struggles with erectile dysfunction. There's even, I'm starting to see a little body image shame with guys too, which I'd never seen before. Yeah, I gotta lose those three pounds. Like seriously? Yeah, you don't need to lose them.
Heather Shannon (19:52.089)
I for sure see that, yes.
Right, or I'm bald, or I have boobs, I have a belly, yeah, whatever, I don't have enough muscles.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (20:02.945)
Yeah, yeah. they get, or if they have any kind of sexual functional issue, it gets in their head and then they're afraid to do it. I've had partners with, I think religious shame, like shame difficulty ejaculating, where they're into sex, they get into bed and then they just, they get in their head much more as they age. And I don't know, it's hard for me to say because of the work I do, I think they get intimidated.
And it's like, I'm just a human like anybody else and I'm having my own struggles. But I think there might be some of that going on with some of the people I've dated. But I also see, think there's a couple of guys I've dated that there's definitely the religious shame part that's really, especially those that are divorced that have come from Catholic backgrounds that are divorced and now they're having sex with other people. I think there's a lot of that that they have to work with.
Heather Shannon (20:57.519)
Yeah, I've also received the comments as a single lady working in this field of like, oh, that's intimidating. Like the one guy I dated when I first moved here, like they'll just say that's intimidating. He's like, well, I went home and I thought about it and I decided it's probably a good thing, but it was a little scary at first. I'm like, okay.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (21:15.501)
I have these guys, like they ask me what I do and when I sort of hesitate and then I tell them and they're like, and they want to know everything. And then they go home and they listen to every episode of the podcast. I, I tell them, don't do that. If you want to get to know me, get to know me and then I'll tell you which episodes make sense for you. But I have, it's, it's so interesting. I had one guy who I'm sure he wouldn't have ever asked any other person this.
Heather Shannon (21:26.252)
my god, that's a happy to me too.
Heather Shannon (21:35.918)
I know.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (21:43.542)
He was small, was short, it was probably my height, but he was very nicely endowed. We had a nice intimate experience. And then he sends me a text the next day and says, like, am I big enough? And I'm like, seriously? Like you're asking me, like of all the people in the world, like I would never ever judge you based on that. And it was...
Heather Shannon (22:01.207)
Right, it's like almost the opposite of what people stereotype us as, yeah. Yeah, we're more open-minded and it's like we're still human. It's like we have the same vulnerabilities and insecurities as everyone else. We just maybe know a little bit better how to deal with them, you know? Yeah.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (22:04.651)
Yeah, yeah. So interesting.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (22:17.889)
Right. And we want to talk about them. We don't want to push them down and hide them. And I think that is this resignation to the fact that we just don't need sex. We don't need pleasure. It's not that important. Sex is good for your health. So let's just say it's like, it's a medical necessity. We must have it because it'll help us be healthier people.
Heather Shannon (22:31.417)
It really is.
Heather Shannon (22:38.831)
keep going out there everybody.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (22:40.973)
Exactly, exactly, exactly.
Heather Shannon (22:47.951)
am 70 or 80, am I gonna want sex? Do you find that libidos that people have are the same or do you feel like there's more things just like hitting the brakes with libidos with the clients you work with or the people you're meeting?
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (23:04.525)
think it changes, I mean, without question. You're not going to have the spontaneous jump in bed sex that you had when you were younger. think there's more interesting connection. I think for people in long-term relationships, and you probably see this a lot in your practice too, it's a different, there's different ways of approaching it. I we still, you know, I speak as a 60s, in my early 60s, and I hope that I will still feel this way.
as I age, when I meet somebody, still get that new relationship energy and I still want to have sex all the time. It's like, I still got that, but I can turn off very quickly because things will not feel good. And so you have to have more communication with your partner around what feels good. mean, I bring vibrators come in the bedroom with me. That's just a fact of life. And no matter how many guys tell me they're going to be the one that will...
Heather Shannon (23:38.827)
You
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (23:59.264)
Eliminate my need for a vibrator because they're such good lovers because it's an indictment of their ability to be a good lover There are vibrators and some other fun stuff when when it's appropriate and it consented to But it's it's more because of this whole Attitude like what have I got to lose as long as everybody's everybody's feeling good and on the on the other side of it I will not tolerate something that isn't that isn't pleasurable or like I
I have friends that still believe in, call it husband sex, obligatory sex for their partner. he takes out the garbage, so I let him do whatever he wants. Like, I will not, that's something that, yeah, like, let's figure this out.
Heather Shannon (24:40.271)
Nope. Bad news. Right. If you're doing that, you're not a terrible person. But you are kind of programming yourself to have negative associations with sex and to deprioritize your pleasure.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (24:51.925)
That's right. Yeah. Yeah.
Heather Shannon (24:55.279)
So let's not do that, I would also think, seems like, interestingly enough, the youngest generation, like Gen Z, is having the least sex, I think. But they seem very, very open-minded and able to communicate about sex. And so I'm curious, like, dating in your 60s, how has that been communicating about it? And in my mind, I would think there would be so many men that would be so excited that you're just, like, open and comfortable with your sexuality. But, like, what is the reaction?
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (25:23.629)
I think they're excited until they start to get intimidated because I think they do face challenges and I think that they're just starting to, their testosterone is starting to dip and they're starting to have, you know, whatever physical issues and on cholesterol medication. mean, within the first 20 minutes of every day, we talk about what medicines, what joints have been replaced, what we've had to give up. mean, it's hysterical. This has been going on for, it's just what it is. We are all aging and it's...
Heather Shannon (25:41.802)
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (25:51.694)
kind of blinds you, at the same time, I think if they didn't have issues because maybe they were in long-term marriages or whatever, like they start to surface at this point.
Heather Shannon (26:01.967)
That's true. I think what you're saying that's making so much sense to me is the emotional intimacy in the communication just becomes that much more important. And also, I'm hearing we need to be secure enough in ourselves to have those conversations and to show our imperfections. Yeah.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (26:10.699)
Yes.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (26:21.173)
Exactly. And a good relationship will have that. it won't be uncomfortable. Yes, it will be uncomfortable in the beginning. It is never easy. You know, it used to be hard for me to say, I'm on hormone therapy, I have an estrogen patch on my stomach. I'm like, you're going to find a band-aid down there, a sticker down there, you know. Now I forget to tell guys about it because I'm in there like, what is this? Okay, no, didn't forget to take off my band-aid. It's like actually my estrogen delivery.
so it's, it's really being able to, to know that like, to have a great relationship, to have connected sex that will lead to a better relationship. Even if you're just having a one night stand, being able to just lose the shame and just say like, this is, this is how I do it. This is what I like to do and what we like. And just also like to ask. I mean, I like to say that one of the sexiest things to me is when a guy says, can I kiss you? Even if it's just a kiss, can't.
Heather Shannon (27:16.175)
that show. Yeah, the last guy I dated did. At first I was like, I don't know if I'm gonna see this guy again. And then he asked to kiss me when we were in the parking lot. And I was like, I love that he asked. And then the kiss was really good. And then I was processing because I hadn't been planning to see him again. But then the kiss was so good. And so my face probably reflected some sort of, like, deep inner breast. And then he was like, are you okay? And I was like, oh my god, now you're checking on me? That's so cool. You know? So yeah, it's like the little things.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (27:26.113)
Mm-hmm
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (27:32.877)
I'm just kidding.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (27:45.582)
You inspire me though to say for any of you men who are out there dating again in midlife, take a kissing class. Guys don't know how to kiss. And kissing is like if you're a good kisser.
Heather Shannon (27:58.609)
he start a kissing class? I've never heard of a kissing class.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (28:01.069)
Oh yeah, let's do it. Let's do it. Cause oh my God, the pecks and the fish and the like sticking their tongue down your throat. And it's just like, no, and once you get good kissing, man, like that's just the beginning of lots of.
Heather Shannon (28:04.653)
so far.
Heather Shannon (28:15.024)
I've never heard of a kissing coach and now I really want to see if there are any.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (28:19.735)
Okay, well let's do it. Let's create it. And if not, I'm gonna do an episode, five techniques for better kissing.
Heather Shannon (28:20.944)
Okay, we're carrying out our re-investigate this and we'll get back to you all.
Heather Shannon (28:30.574)
God, I love kissing and I have strong feelings about it too. And it's something that's come up with my clients when I work with couples were like, sometimes we've been together for like 10, 15 plus years. And they're kind of like, we just don't like kiss the same. don't really and I'm like, okay, let's do and I think I am going to actually develop like a kissing lab. Not we're gonna go kiss a bunch of randos but like, where you try different kinds of kisses and like give each other feedback.
on how those are going, you know?
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (29:02.295)
And hold them, as John Gottman, the famous relationship psychotherapist will say, hold them for at least six seconds.
Heather Shannon (29:09.456)
Unless it's like kissing. Yeah, well yeah, that's true. Yeah. So I think people just need to like try. I think I need to like describe the different types of kisses. People try them and like take notes and share with each other like a little science experiment of kissing.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (29:09.485)
because that's when the hormones start to release.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (29:19.149)
There you go.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (29:25.279)
And it will be fun. Like you'll be laughing, which makes it all much that much better too. What I was just listening to Oprah interviewed Scott Galloway. Do you know who he is?
Heather Shannon (29:28.601)
God.
Heather Shannon (29:36.432)
Is he like an actor? He sounds familiar.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (29:38.216)
No, he's a professor and a researcher and he's written and studied men and boys. So he was saying, and someone, they were asking questions in the audience, it was something like, how do you start a relationship with a woman? Something like, ha ha ha ha, let's get naked. Like when you make a woman laugh, it's a good way to get her into bed.
Heather Shannon (29:41.309)
I I love him. I love him.
Heather Shannon (29:47.034)
Google.
Heather Shannon (29:57.008)
You
Heather Shannon (30:00.933)
Yes, OK, and I had Emily Nagoski on here not that long ago, and she was talking about her emotional floor plans and how instead of going straight for the lust sex vibes, you go to the adjacent rooms on your floor plan, and one of them is like laughter and play. I'm probably getting them wrong officially. Please go read her actual book. But yeah.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (30:16.331)
Yes, yes.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (30:20.534)
Hahaha!
Heather Shannon (30:21.764)
You know, it was like curiosity and play and fun, you know? And I've been seeing that so much with the couples I work with, too, is like when they go out and go to a concert and they laugh and they're being playful with each other. Is it an accident they wind up having great sex that night? I don't think so, I know. I know. I'm like very big on mental foreplay. That's like the hill I'm going to die on, I think.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (30:41.197)
Yep, that's part of the foreplay, right? I mean.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (30:49.535)
Yes, yes, I think it's critical. I think it's the real foreplay actually for me.
Heather Shannon (30:54.264)
Yeah. Okay, let's give some kissing tips though, since we got on that. So what are the tips that you would give, especially to those, you know, middle-aged guys who are like, what? What do mean I'm not a great kisser? Of course I'm fantastic. How do we like, you know?
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (31:08.277)
Okay. All right. So I kind of alluded them in sort of a judgmental way before. I apologize. okay, let's start with, the lips. you're, have lips are one of the most sensitive, if not the most sensitive part of your body. So just like even just holding your lips close to a person without touching and just breathing in on each other. That is really fucking hot. So I'd start there.
Heather Shannon (31:13.296)
You
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (31:36.087)
and then holding your lips on each other without moving your mouth. Don't, don't fish.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (31:50.862)
Stay put, it's like a Hollywood, think of a Hollywood kiss. They don't fish kiss, they actually like stay on each other's lips. Then I would, the tongue is not meant to go down your throat. The tongue is another thing can vary to the lady. You can take your tongue, lift the person's lips around the person's lips. You can circle your tongues around each other. The tips of the tongues, just with each other.
Heather Shannon (31:56.706)
true yeah
Heather Shannon (32:04.453)
Yeah.
Heather Shannon (32:10.671)
Yeah.
Heather Shannon (32:14.766)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (32:20.685)
you can let go of the lips and then gently kiss their face, their eyes, and just then keep coming back. Are we putting morning here? I think you and I are jumping into bed together in a minute.
Heather Shannon (32:29.636)
Yeah, lots of options.
I mean, none of them are ramming your tongue down someone else's throat. Although I will say, I feel like there's a time and a place for that, but it's not at the beginning. Yeah, it's like after things get so intense and if the person you're kissing is like grabbing onto and pulling you closer and can't get enough, then you go for
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (32:44.351)
No, I agree. I agree, y'all.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (32:53.901)
Right. Sometimes that's all you want to do is have everything inside everybody, inside every part. But you also, and I will say the other thing, and it kind of goes back to the asking is listening. I dated someone for a while, for five years. And in the beginning, I really liked him, but he was not a good kisser. And I'm like, okay, is this fixable? And it was. It was. Because I stayed with him for five years. He just, we learned to kiss really well. And he was a really great lover.
Heather Shannon (32:57.454)
You
Heather Shannon (33:13.7)
What? my God.
Heather Shannon (33:20.75)
Now, how do you get that? Because I think we've got the people, and we shouldn't act like all women are fantastic kissers either. We know that that's not the case. But we've got the people who maybe want to work on their kissing, but then we also have the people who are like not thrilled with their partner's kissing. How do you say that nicely? It sounds like you've actually done that well. So how?
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (33:29.613)
you
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (33:41.08)
Well, so I was already like, we were just in the beginning of the dating. think if you've been in a long-term relationship, it gets a little harder, but you might just look at a video and say, let's try this and see what it would feel like. You know, like, look how they kissed and, know, I mean, I do say like Hollywood kisses look really good. Now they're like, you know, their whole idea of sexual experiences is ridiculous, but we all have, you know, jump into bed, we're wet and we have...
Simultaneous orgasm, so I don't know about you, but I don't think I've ever had a simultaneous orgasm with my partner.
Heather Shannon (34:06.768)
You
Heather Shannon (34:14.702)
I'm fine without it. Like if it happens great, but
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (34:17.377)
Yeah, yeah, it's pretty hard to do. yeah, so I would say, or maybe let's back, maybe part of what's making you not want sex is that you're so afraid of getting naked and heading into the intercourse. And maybe if you just have like, let's just kiss tonight. Let's keep our clothes on.
Heather Shannon (34:36.592)
It takes so much pressure off.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (34:36.819)
You can't. Yep. And don't, and you're not allowed to take my clothes off.
Heather Shannon (34:42.874)
There you go. Setting some parameters. then you could also do the kissing as an experiment and just be like, let's try some things and see what we like. You could say, I was listening to this podcast and they were talking about this. Put it on me and Karen.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (34:50.359)
Yeah. Yeah.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (34:55.447)
That's right. Exactly. Exactly. Now that I think about it, you really do kiss like a fish.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (35:05.165)
No. No. Exactly.
Heather Shannon (35:05.722)
Don't say that to the person, but get them to try some other ways of kissing. That might be a good way to go about it. I'm always a big fan of finding something neutral, like a neutral resource. Like, here's this article. here's this Instagram reel. here's this podcast. And then it's not personal, and then people don't take it personally. They're just like, how interesting. Yes, let's try this thing.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (35:24.82)
Exactly.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (35:30.729)
Exactly. I agree 100%. And I love it when I meet, especially when I meet men in midlife who are in long-term relationships. And naturally when I tell them what I do, they tell me what their challenges are, their partner doesn't want sex anymore. And I'm just like, well, have you asked her, have you talked to her about it? Have you, you know, is that anything? And they're like, well, no. I'm like, okay, well, how about just even the fact that you have interest in a conversation about it might turn her on a little bit.
Heather Shannon (35:42.201)
You
Heather Shannon (35:58.001)
So that's important too. And I have found that my clients that are on the older side of the spectrum have a harder time talking about it. And I do think some of that is just how they were raised. So how do you overcome that cultural thing of we don't talk about uncomfortable stuff?
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (36:09.344)
Absolutely.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (36:17.191)
It's hard, it's hard. I will say that with my ex-boyfriend, one of the best, we used to do our debriefs, if you will, our post-coital debriefs in the car. So you're not facing each other. Yeah. So we just started, somehow it would always come up. Like remember last night when we did blah, blah, blah, or the thing, or, you know, and so like, you're not facing them. And once you've done it and you start doing it and talking more, becomes easier. But I will say, every time I have a new partner and I don't have multiple partners at the same time,
Heather Shannon (36:24.378)
Thank you. Okay.
Okay. Interesting.
Heather Shannon (36:34.169)
Uh-huh.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (36:45.981)
Every time I'm in a new relationship like it's it's still uncomfortable for me to to start these conversations unless I'm with somebody who's super open as well It's very it's hard and it's something that you But but it's like the first conversation is the hardest one And once you have that one and then the next one becomes a little bit easier and don't try to take on You know the the Russian Empire or the the Roman Empire rather in in the first conversation, you know just just
Heather Shannon (36:53.764)
Yeah!
It is hard.
Heather Shannon (37:13.018)
That's good,
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (37:15.405)
I call them, try something small. I have something I call sex snacks. try a snack. Try a snack. Just give her a little kiss. Give him a hug when it's not expected. Just buy flowers, bring a new toy and just kind of slip it into the bedroom. Something small that won't overwhelm the person because that's when people are gonna push back right away.
Heather Shannon (37:20.694)
You
Heather Shannon (37:40.954)
Yeah, I think you're right. It's more important that it be a positive experience than it being a comprehensive experience. Yeah.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (37:50.446)
Exactly. Exactly. And I also really love, I mentioned to you earlier, there's a platform called ARIA, A-R-Y-A dot F-Y-I, and I have a 15 % off coupon. I'll give it to you for your audience. And it's a great platform because you both get to put in the things that you like without the other one seeing it, and then they curate a program for you. And it's a combination of activities that you can like...
Heather Shannon (37:57.904)
Bye.
Heather Shannon (38:02.444)
Thank you.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (38:16.637)
reading and they'll send you a box with toys and different things that you can do for the month. It's like a subscription service. my clients have great success with it. Everybody loves it. The most purchased of all the products that I endorse. Yeah.
Heather Shannon (38:21.839)
Mm-hmm.
Heather Shannon (38:31.056)
I love that. It's good for people to hear that. And I think it's also important for people to just try new things. I think it's easy, especially I think as we get older. It's like, I've tried this. I've tried that. There's part of me that feels like that. When I was in my 30s, I experimented with some stuff. Now I'm just going to be boring. We can't let ourselves do that.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (38:54.249)
No, and women like novelty. The reason we get bored, know, men are visual for the most part. They like, they see something that turns them on and they can get hard and get in the mood. We need more than that. And novelty is a great way to get us excited. And we might be kind of ew in the beginning, but then we'll be like, ooh.
Heather Shannon (38:58.938)
So yeah.
Heather Shannon (39:13.456)
You
Heather Shannon (39:16.944)
So you can try things and stop at any point. And not everything you try is going to be for you. But I do think keeping an open mind. And I have ADHD, so I get bored real easily. And then I work with a ton of people who are neurodivergent. I think also you're right with the guys being visual. But I also think the ADHD guys need a little more variety as well.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (39:35.873)
I think we all have it right now with the technology that we can't, know, like some level of it.
Heather Shannon (39:41.872)
Yeah, we all have like, I just read part of Dopamine Nation and watched some videos on it. And it's like, yeah, we all are like addicted to our cell phones and it's a problem, y'all.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (39:49.793)
Yeah. Yes. Yes. Try to have sex without the phone in the room.
Heather Shannon (39:56.753)
And I think that's where porn can be an issue, too. I'm not anti-porn at all, but for some people, if it feels like this is my dopamine fix and then it's hard to replicate that with your real sex life, tone it down a little bit. See how that changes things.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (40:11.531)
And I go back to less is more.
Heather Shannon (40:13.806)
Yes. Yes. That's like the theme of my life right now. Doing less things. We're saying no to more things. We're not meant to take in as much information as we take in.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (40:30.091)
Yes, yes. And that goes with the number of times you have sex too. There's no right number of times to have sex. Like how many times should we be having? I think that what are the numbers? And you probably know them better than me as a therapist, but it's like six times a year is considered like no sex or something like that or less than six times a year.
Heather Shannon (40:48.716)
Less than once a month is considered a sexless marriage, then once a week is considered like, on average, this is very much not for every couple. On average, that's where you of max out your relationship satisfaction. But there's definitely people that are not maxed out at once a week.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (40:59.885)
Right.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (41:09.645)
Yeah, and of course in like any relationship, as I was saying before, like in the beginning, you want much more. But there's also like, if, you only get to have it once a month, maybe that's the best thing that the two of you can like look forward to.
Heather Shannon (41:21.328)
Yes, and I've even had young couples where like every other week is great for them because they're kind of like our relationship is first and foremost a partnership and companionship and the sex is just like this lovely cherry on top so like when it works out for us great and it's more about the quality of the sex. Yeah.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (41:39.318)
And how you define it, is Esther Perel says, sex starts at the end of the last orgasm, like consider everything building up to it for play, regardless of whether you're naked, like just everything, every interaction, because you show up as a sexual being. are looking into the world to attract people, whether it's sexually or just in relationships. So we're always having sex.
Heather Shannon (41:44.28)
Yeah. Yes.
Heather Shannon (42:01.137)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Part of what I love about this work is like, all the things we do to make our sex life better, just make our life better too. You know, it's like taking care of your body. Guess what? That's good for you anyways. Becoming a better communicator. Guess what? That's gonna help you at work also. You know?
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (42:20.363)
Yes, yes, agreed.
Heather Shannon (42:22.896)
Okay, so if people are like, Karen's so nice and fun and non-judging, how do I work with her? How do I find out more? How can they connect with you? Where would you send them?
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (42:34.507)
Yes. So my podcast is Taboo to Truth, Life and Sex After 50, and it's both video and audio. So YouTube, Apple, et cetera, et My website is also Taboo to Truth. That's the theme. Anything that's taboototruth.com, you'll find everything. actually have an adult sex education masterclass, Potter, Wiser, Wilder, wait, Potter, Wilder, Wiser, that I'm offering, and I'll be coming out with a new
Heather Shannon (42:59.599)
Okay.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (43:04.375)
course in January for men who to support their partners through menopause and I have a little download resource just a very very light version of it for anyone interested and for the women too because you might need to help educate your partner on how to be a good partner for you through this time.
Heather Shannon (43:11.514)
But yeah.
Heather Shannon (43:22.071)
Mm-hmm. I feel like the men would get a lot of points if they found a resource on their own and were just like being real supportive. Yeah. Yeah, we always want way certain points. And then the taboo to truth is spelled T-A-B-O-O, normal way of taboo. And then it's T-O. I just wanted to specify that, people, because there's a few different ways to spell it, But we'll link to it. We'll link to it in the show notes on both YouTube and the audio platforms.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (43:26.507)
Yes. yeah.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (43:38.669)
Correct. Yes, thank you. Yes.
Heather Shannon (43:49.136)
This has been such a delight. Thank you for coming on the show, Karen, and discussing just what makes sex fun and hot, especially as we're aging. think that let's normalize that.
Karen Bigman, Taboo To Truth (44:04.865)
Thank you. And it's such an important conversation. All the conversations you and I are having are so important. So thank you for having me and for continuing to spread the gospel.
Heather Shannon (44:09.911)
Yeah, absolutely.
That's right. Thank you everybody for listening to this episode and we will catch you next Monday on another episode of Ask a Sex Therapist. Bye for now.