Welcome to Mindset, Mood and Movement, a systemic approach to human behavior, performance, and well being. Our psychological, emotional, and physical health are all connected, and my guests and I endeavor to share knowledge, strategies, and tools for you to enrich your life and work. Hello and welcome. Today's episode is a juicy one. I've got a guest with me, Mark McConvey, who I'm going to introduce in more depth shortly, but we are going into talk and Unpack how finding success that leads to fulfillment rather than disappointment is absolutely crucial in life and in business. Now, Mark has a huge experience in life and business and a lot to share and I'll be part of that conversation as well. So we hope to take you on a journey that will really take you on a pathway of clarity and overcoming some of the misunderstandings, misinterpretations around what success is and that way to fulfill them. Mark, welcome.

Thank you for having me Sal, what a lovely introduction. I'm really, really looking forward to unpacking some of the things that you just, talked about.

Fantastic. Mark, success, fulfillment, these are words, they're adjectives, and they take us in places, sometimes to different things. May I ask, what would your definition of success be?

Wow, that's a, that's a big question to straight off the bat. I like it. You put me on the spot. success for me, I've come to learn is, is what makes you feel content on the inside. You know, for me, it's, it's all about. internal validation. And, but you, but I think, you know, one needs to, to make sure that they've got a level of consciousness within them to, to, to understand what actually that means. and, you know, I love being. Best friend with the voice inside my own head, and if I can get to a place, you know, of that peace of mind, then, then I know everything that's going on around me externally is either adding to my life or, or not taking away from, from that contentment.

Yeah, that's a, that's a lovely description. I, my definition of success today is a very different definition of success when I was in my 30s and in my 20s and of course as a child. And it's been an evolving thing, so I, my definition of success feels like it's a constantly evolving process. But as I get more mature in life... it seems to me that it's about feeling. So rather than the external metric, and there's a place for that. It might be a number that you need to earn for your business or your income. And there's, there's a place for that. But if it isn't connected to a feeling that is authentic and wanted and healthy and rich, then that external metric or thing that you might be chasing can be a road to the wrong place. So that's my, my definition. Mark, I kind of want to start where you're at, I know your story a little bit, but for our listener. You've been on a bit of a journey in the last couple of years with huge change and all around your work and your business and yourself. Maybe you could share a little more about where you've been in the last couple of years and how that is.

Yeah, so, I moved down to Brighton at the beginning of 2017 to launch a video production company. Which I ran until the beginning of last year and I got to a point where I didn't feel aligned with the values of the company or I didn't feel that I could be living my true self while also running a video production company. And I think I'd fallen into the trap of chasing some of those external things and those hard things that we're talking about and trying to all about revenue and profit margins. So I decided after a lot of thinking over the down, downtime over, over the Christmas of 2000, whenever it was 2021, that, I needed to just jump from, from the train in between stations with no plan and trust that the universe and me within it could figure out where I was going to go. So I did that and been on a bit of a, I guess, a spiritual journey for the last 18 months. that took me via going on a year long journey with another startup. called Thrive Now, and it was very, very purpose led. It was really about, inside out way of thinking, and helping business leaders, and trying to create a ripple effect, you know, that would spread out into the world and do more good. But again, I realised that I'd got to the point that it was so much about other people, and really, the, the, the power of my story and my understanding was, was all I needed to... To, to one, feel fulfilled in what I was doing and to use that from a now very, very stable place to be able to, to, to help people. And it just so happens that I really like helping people as well. So I'm, first and foremost, I'm, I'm doing this for myself. You know, I'm, I'm taking myself to the world. I'm trying to brand myself, sharing my story so that I can help other people. You know, understand their own stories and, and not fear them so much and, and yeah, it's, it's, it's led me to a, a place where my life is in, is in great balance at the moment, you know, I still need to, to monetize what I'm doing, so I still need to put in those, those things that we talk about, so that I know that I can sustain this, but yeah, I don't think I've ever felt better about what I'm about to do, and it feels authentically me.

That's amazing. That's such, such a powerful thing. And I resonate with so much you're saying there about being in an agency. I going back a long way, I was in an ad agency, this back sort of early, early part of my career and thinking, this is it. This is the cool thing to do. And, and. And really getting caught in that trap, you know, the, the, the, the trap of metrics, like earn more money, back at the time I had a really nice car and it was all about this kind of more, more, more, and of course the advertising world is, is, is very much about that to a large degree, certainly when I was there. And, you know, when you sort of think... What am I doing this for? At some point, for many, many years, I didn't think about that question. Like, what am I doing? And I think at different junctions of your life, your twenties, thirties, forties, and so on, you think differently. So there are places for that. But there's something really powerful, isn't there? When you check in with your own internal, for me, it's, I call it a compass as a metaphor. That compass that says, where am I going? What, what am I doing? Why am I getting up in the morning and doing something? Does it, does it resonate on a deep level or is it putting some numbers in an account, which is arbitrary? Now, would it be okay? Cause I know your story personally and for our listener, Mark's got a really powerful story, which of course I know you're working, but in our, in our conversation today, maybe you could take us a little more into your, your own story about how you've really kind of found so much. of coming through adversity.

Yeah. Do we want to, do we want to dial it right back to the kind of the origins of where it started?

If you're happy to, it will be, I know it's a powerful story. So just a kind of note for the listener, Mark's story involves being in an accident. he's, you know, he's overcome many, many things, but it's, it's a raw story, but it's so powerful. I'd love to hear more of it, please, Mark.

Yeah, absolutely. No problem whatsoever. You know, just to, to, look, a footnote to that is that, you know, I've gotten to myself a place in life where I'm really happy to, to share my story and know that it's not going to impact me. And I think that's really important, for your listeners to, to understand. And it's something I'm quite passionate about. We all can have very powerful stories to tell, especially we've gone through traumas, but you've got to make sure that if you are sharing it, that it's in no way going to impact your own mental health, because it needs to, it needs to, you need to make sure that you're in a good position to share it, even though you feel like you can help other people. If it's harming you, then you shouldn't be doing it. So this is why it's taken me over 30 years, I think, to be able to be ready. to share my story. Not that I've been traumatized for 30 years, by the way, it's it's just that... Yeah, I was out there living life. But anyway, I digress. yeah, I was, burned very badly when I was 14 years old. just a, a silly accident, you know, the kind of cliched kids playing around with matches too close to some petrol that went up in a garage. I was on holiday. in Ireland at the time and, somehow managed to escape a burning garage and, was taken to a local hospital in the west of Ireland where they stabilised me and then I was taken to Dublin, via ambulance because there was no helicopters running at night time that day, a flat line twice on the way, managed to come through that, was in an induced coma in Dublin, Dublin, they accidentally administered, penicillin to me, which I'm allergic to, so when I came out of the coma, I had to go back into a coma. and then it just started, once I was stabilized and fought off, you know, multiple organs threatening to fail on me and my eyesight was managed to get saved. It was a long, long, long road to recovery. 30 plus operations over two and a half years, other challenges as well, like having to be able to learn to write with my left hand because my right hand was so damaged and it was extremely important for me to, to stay, with my school year and not drop back a year mentally for me, that was a huge driving force in my recovery and gave me massive amounts of motivation. But I was extremely fortunate as well that I had the most incredible family and community around me. so I was never, I was never isolated, you know, with, with, with my trauma. And, you know, I had to wear a Perspex mask for two years, 24 hours a day. So I had to deal with that. yeah, going back to school, managed to get my... GCSEs, just the five GCSEs I needed to do A levels, which was huge for me. but yeah, going back to school, I think was, was the hardest day of my life. You know, reintegrating into a very masculine, sporty, all boys school was, was really difficult, but you know, I overcame it. And then probably the proudest day of my life was deciding to leave that environment. So after I did my GCSEs, I realized that I was wrapped up in cotton wool too much. And I decided that I, if I was ever going to be able to make it to university, I needed to be able to, to, to integrate more into society and not be in this environment where I was untouchable. So I left and went to a mixed sixth form college, local, still wearing the mask and, and then managed to overcome that. And that gave me huge amounts of, huge amounts of confidence to be able to know that I could make the step and get my full independence back and, you know, leave home at 19 and go to university. So that kind of wraps up that, that five year journey that I had from, from the age of 14.

Wow. That's a powerful story. And thank you for sharing. And isn't it? Gosh, I mean, there's so much to kind of say about that. And I don't want to say too much. I think you've said enough. I've just really resonated with how difficult that must be at such a young age, all of the layers, the physical, the health, the social, the growing age. And absolutely amazing. As I, as I know you now, what a vibrant human being you are. You're, you're, you do so many things. I'm really interested, like how your. How that may have shaped your worldview and your perception around success and what, what that young Mark then went on to do, how he kind of met the world and, and dealt with challenges, you know, because you've been through a huge, huge challenge and you obviously will continue to go through as you were healing over a long time. What would you say helped or what kind of perception was shaped by that, by that, by that tragedy

Yeah, so it's a, yeah, massively valid points you make there. And. So much, so much was, started or shaped, in those moments, you know, in terms of just my own recovery, realizing that I needed to lead the way, you know, I really wanted to be in control of decisions that were being made about me. And at 14, there's an assumption, especially back in the early 90s, that. You know, kids do as they're, you know, as they're told, and there were too many conversations going on that I wasn't a part of, and I wasn't having that. And it was also, you know, with my mum being my primary carer, I thought as well as me taking control and feeling better about it, I could take some of the responsibility of her, of her. You know, I've talked about this before, that as soon as I became... CEO of my own, my own company, my own recovery and you know, my lieutenant was, was my mum. So I think my own personal leadership journey started at that point. And now you, you know, you, you touched on the fact that the, you know, the growing and, different things at that stage in my life. And on one hand, it's, it's horrific, you know, just on the, on the cusp of puberty that. this would happen to me, but as well as my body growing, you know, my mind was still developing and, you know, in some ways I feel blessed that it didn't, it happened to me then and not at 18 or 21 when so much of my being was, would have already been developed. So I was still able to create the, the, the building blocks of my character that would become the I am because I was still developing as, as, as a person and Some of the other things that we touched on as well is in terms of seeking a bright future and hearing a lot of the narrative that were going on around me and well meaning therapists and adults. Talking about me in a very general way, and I was just like, that's just not how I'm feeling on the inside, and it's like, I don't know what you, what you're talking about, you know, my mum tells a really funny story of waiting outside my room in a hospital one day, you know, And a therapist about 10 or 15 minutes after being in to talk to me, just walking out, shaking her head, going, My word, that boy could give me therapy, and just walked out, never seen anything like it, shaking her head. Because she was sat there, and it was like she was, you know, spouting from her textbook or some learnings, and, Well, you must be feeling this, and you must be feeling that, and I'm like, Nope. I'm not, I know maybe I should be and whatever, but I'm not, and I'm not gonna let you put those things in my head. I'm really sorry, but if you're gonna sit down and you're gonna tell me how I'm feeling, because you've, you've learnt this in some, you know, westernised, you know, funded, you know, course that you've been on, that's just not who I am. So I used to just chase them out the room if they were just trying to get me to think a certain way. You know, my therapists were my family, my physiotherapist, nurse, people that inspired me, people that talked about the human condition in a different way that wasn't from a textbook. And I, in the early days, I got so much confidence and growth for that that, you know, I just thought I can forge my own path here. And there were other conversations going on around that. To me, he didn't, didn't really paint a bright future, and I wasn't gonna, I wasn't gonna have that. You know, I said to my mum recently that, I said I remember her having a conversation about how disappointed she was when she heard that, that, that the burns on my face were so deep that my, hair follicles, were never gonna come back. Because in her mind, she thought, oh, you know what, when he grows up, he can grow a beard. And... And he can hide his scars, and I was, and I was already beyond that point, and I kind of shocked her a bit, and I said, look, I don't judge you, it's just the way it was, but I was already facing up to things quicker than a lot of the people around me, and, and as I said, you know, before that happening at such a young, at such a formative age, I and I feel so privileged because it's enabled me to create this strength of character, where I could ignore so many external forces and know that I could rely on what was inside of me. But a key point to make is that it was still incredible to have all those people around me. So I could be my own person, but knowing that I wasn't isolated and I wasn't alone and that there were going to be setbacks and I did need people to pick me up, but they just didn't need to tell me how I needed to think. They just needed to be there for me and support me.

Wow. Wow. I'm just, my nervousness has just had a massive response from my skin as I've listened to everything you've said there. Just this kind of, wow. I'm absolutely intrigued. It's, you touch on such a good point about, you mentioned a therapist, but it seems in life other people can lay or, impose their views or their ideas on us. And clearly it was happening to you at that time. And, so fascinating to hear a real story of someone who'd gone through a trauma, had real, you know, had burns, had all these things that are working through and healing from. Yeah. To have the strength of mind to go, No, I don't actually feel that way. And to challenge the, the, the, the labels or the terms that people put on you. And I think this is such a radical and powerful part of your story, is to, for people to know, it's like, Know, know your own mind. Don't let others tell you what you feel. Know what you feel. And you've, you've, you've, your story's so powerful, it really pushes that. I'm also absolutely intrigued about the environment. As you've said, you had the right. kind of team, the right caregivers around you to help you and nourish you. And, and that's as important, you know, it's kind of, I guess, social epigenetics, epigenetics is how genes express space in the environment. And if people around us are helping us heal and challenging us, but holding us and keeping that space, that's a really vital part. and I wonder when we think about, you know, success in any nature, whether it's as a human being, as a business person, as a sports person, whatever it be. Understand that we do need that environment. We do need the right kind of people around us and it may not be that many, but we need that as well as, as well as the voice inside to absolutely hear that. Now, the voice inside intrigues me, Mark, and I know you and I have spoken a little about this. I used to have a voice inside that wasn't very nice, and, and that old voice sneaks up sometimes and gives me a really hard time and tell me just how rubbish I really am and, and all this sort of stuff. And, and I've done a lot of therapy work on it, and I've really gone into, and most of the time that voice is, it's normally on side. It's normally a kind, kinder voice, but it kind of can sort of segue back into being a, a, a militant commander, a dictator I call it now. For those of us who listen to our inner narrative, and most of us do, could you say a little more about how you've managed to, that voice in your head, both from perhaps the earlier days and the present day, how you've made a healthy relationship to that voice in your head? Because I wonder if the voice in our head isn't actually one of the biggest blocks that we need to overcome or to transition to live in a fulfilled way.

Yeah, I think, I don't know, I can't remember the actual stat, but I think 70% of the, the things, the narrative that goes through our head is not true. So, you know, our, the voice inside our head is often trying to sabotage us. And, if we, if we talk about the present state, the present day, the, you know, the... the bit of the, I mean, it's such a loaded term, spiritual, you know, journey and whatever you want to call it, mindfulness, spiritual journey, just understanding oneself. But the, whatever I've done in the last 18 months and whatever you want to call it, you know, it's up to you, is, is understanding that. You're never going to be able to, to get rid of it. It's always going to be there. And for me, meditations really helped that in the last 18 months, you know, I used to think that meditation was all about going in and completely shutting it out and getting into his place with it, where there's no thoughts, but something that's, that's really. come to me recently is it's not about that. for me, meditation is understanding that these voices are going to, are going to come into my head, but when they come into my head, I understand that they're in play. And if I understand that they're in play and I can then have control over that, I can then tell them to bugger off. So I, through that practice of meditation, I have then been able to apply that to my own life. So, I know I've got an ego. I know that there are personas coming into play. But what's different to before is that I now understand when they are in play. And if they are in play, then I have a decision to make. Do I allow that to be compounded and let my ego drive? forward my actions and, and my next thoughts, or, or do I tell it to bugger off? And it's the same with, you know, imposter syndrome and, and all, all these different, different things that we have to deal with in, in, in our modern day life. And for example, it's, I love now going into, I used to be so competitive. And I'm so glad that I am, because it's that competitiveness that probably helped me survive, and that competitiveness that made me prove people wrong for so many years. But now I love going into a conversation with no interest in being right. And now that can make you build even deeper connections with other people. I just love that. Because so often before, you go in to discuss a subject and debate a subject, And then before you know it, your ego's in play, and it's more important that you prove that other person right. To be free from that is, it just, suddenly you've got so much more control over that voice inside your head. Taking it back a bit further, yeah. I don't know, I don't know how, how much... I was faking it until I make made it. I don't know. That's something I'm, I'm really exploring at the moment. You know, I've started to, to write the book about my journey and I'm going to want to become a, you know, motivational speaker. So that's something that I'm, I'm exploring myself at the moment. and I had a really interesting conversation with. a first cousin of mine. So I did a bit of a journey around back to Ireland a few weeks ago in my camper van because I wanted to have discussions with key stakeholders who were either there on the night of Max and then, you know, part of my recovery. because when we suffer trauma, we don't suffer trauma in isolation. And what happened to me was the biggest thing in, in all of our lives. You know, my cousin said to me, you know, Mark, there was life before your accident and there was life after your accident and it changed everybody's lives and their perspective on life and all that. So for me, before, part of the, I want to create this ripple effect of positivity and the first little wave around me is my friends and family that were there for me. So I wanted to pay respect to them and go to Ireland and say, I'm now in a place where I feel like I'm fully healed, and I want to now use my story for the good of others, but I want to make sure that you're all okay first, and got all their blessings, and had incredibly deep discussions, but going back to my cousin, he said to me that, He was worried that, because I've got this really big personality and quite gregarious, and that was in me beforehand, which was a massive asset for me to have, to be able to have a sense of humor, even in the darkest of times, was huge. So I think I've flooded my brain a lot with humor and with jokes, and a lot of that is about deflection, right, and putting walls up. And he, and he, and he was worried that that was the only way that. That I was coping with what I went through. And he showed me a video, video of, Patrick Kilty, the Northern Ireland comedian, and he was on a, a panel show, and he's done documentaries about the trauma he's been through. and what he did was he, he makes humor, his, his wall, his barrier to stop people getting close. And Colin, you know, my cousin, was, was, was worried that I was doing that, and then he could see through our quite deep discussions that I assured him it wasn't, but now that I've come away from that conversation a month later, I think he, I don't think it's either or, I think it's a mixture of both, I think I was lucky that I had this very, very strong will and a strong mind that I inherited, you know, from my parents, but that wasn't enough To, to play all the part that it needed to play in, in, in my recovery and growth. So I actually think that there's, there's a lot of value and astute observation that my cousin made. That, that, yeah, I did use my humor and protect myself and played various personas while I was healing myself. But it wasn't, none of it was all one or, or the other. Now I'm right to the point where, I'm really zen and grounded, and now it's why, why I'm in a, in a position where I'm not faking anything. It's the, the authentic me, but I think it's been a dull that's been moving over, but from probably from the middle point over the last 30 years. I hope that makes

Yeah, it does make a lot of sense. And so many pieces of what you've explained there are... Intriguing on many levels. I mean, firstly, when you hear, when you say about, humor, I've had experience of that when I did my psychotherapeutic training by my, my mentor and trainer, Pam would always say that the darkest thing, sometimes you got to bring humor to it. It's not wrong. You're not making a joke of anything bad, but you're bringing that balance. You know, something like tragedy or, you know, a fire or burn. And there's humor. It's this almost contradictory balancing force, which is quite natural to do. So I think it's, it's instinctive in human. If you, if you take away all the preconceived shoulds or shouldn'ts, it's instinctive. I know some people, used to know some firemen. They'd see some dark stuff and... You go out to road traffic accidents and things, and they'd make light of it, and you'd be like... And they'd explain, they weren't being disrespectful, it's the way they could handle it, it was, it needed such balance, so I think that's, that's important. That's one thing I learnt about why humour... and difficulty or extreme things can go together. You know, for you, of course, it's, you're entitled to, it's your, your trauma, your experience, and you're entitled to do what you want with it. But that's sometimes why it seems humor in those dark times is absolutely needed as a, as a human system. I was really interested about the wall you said, and something came up in my world recently about, my own blocks. And I see this with people I work with. And to keep the story personal to me, my blocks are often like a wall. So if I have my mind gets into a block state, like I start feeling, it's a wall of thoughts. Now many years ago I went to, I saw an exhibition by, Damien Hirst and he did this piece of work which you saw it from afar. It was a huge piece of work on the wall and you thought, Oh, what's that? And you had to walk towards it. I was actually in New York at the time. I was walking towards it and you got closer and closer and within half a meter you realize it was just Billions of blue bottle flies dead stuck to the, and it was just like, Oh my God, it's just so powerful as a piece of work because it drew you in. And I was sort of checked back in with when I've had my own blocks mentally. And those walls of thoughts that come up and they're sort of like all these points of disagreement or fear or worry, or no, don't do this, or that'll go wrong or whatever those narratives are. Just all kind of overlaying voices as a wall. And of course, the important thing is to ask one's mind, why is it doing this? Rather than it's wrong or it's bad. For me, I ask my own mind, like, so what's the purpose of this negative wall of thought? What's it trying to do? And invariably, one way or the other, it's the same thing. It's trying to keep me safe. Always. It's trying to keep you safe. The problem being is that it's sometimes built on misunderstanding and misapprehension about, well, what is safety? You know, not taking a chance of growing your business or speaking to someone on a podcast or, or whatever it is that you might feel is a risk. And we have this inbuilt safety system, but of course it's filtered by what people tell us. Culture. Don't do this. Don't do that. And listening to one's, I guess, quieter inner voice, that more intelligent state, which you alluded to coming from meditation. To me sounds more powerful and it's something I do quite similar about meditation and internal check ins. But that's such a big thing when we think about what is success in a life? Whatever that looks like for you. Money, health, fitness, happiness, whatever it is. But what is the fulfillment? Is it on your terms or is it on someone else's? And if it's on someone else's terms... you better check the T's and C's because that contract may not be right for you. So cool. I'd like to go a little bit more into how you've been applying these understandings, both from your early story, and you know, you've done so many different things, but how have you brought it to be to get this authenticity to make decisions like leave your video agency, which I understand was pretty successful at the time, and to then go on to do Thrive and then to move on from that? How have you? Got to that decision point. What, what is it in you that gets you to that decision point?

I think I've got better at it over the years. I think each decision I've made is, is layered on top of the previous one. so if we, we wind back a bit, you know, a little bit further, before I founded and ran 23D for, for five, over five years, you know, I had a, a very successful career in, in the poker industry of, of all industries, like, How I got into that, I don't know, but, you know, I was at the top of the game, you know, I'd won the biggest award that I could win, and I'd hit a glass ceiling, and at that point that I'd hit the glass ceiling, I didn't want to join any of the gaming companies, but I think my ego or people were feeding my ego, you know, and it got to a point where there was opportunities to fill gaps in the market that I spotted. And I had such a great balanced life, you know, as a freelancer in the, in the poker media world, I was traveling around the world. I could travel loads in between and traveling for me has been really important as part of my growth as well. Maybe we can, you know, dive into that afterwards, but in terms of. You know, I fell into a trap, I think, by leaving my freelance life behind and starting a video agency because people were telling me in these big game companies that, you know, you're the person that can do this. And, you know, I talk about these ideas that I had, you know, I'm never short of creative ideas. And I started to forget the growth that I'd made, I think, and was chasing riches there. were things that hadn't made me happy up to that point. You know, wow, I could start this creative video agency. I can build a team. I can earn off other people and not just off, off myself, you know, margins. And so pounds and dollar signs started coming into my head. And I was running into, to a, to a, to a scenario that just wasn't suited with, with who I am and, and, and how I'd, how I'd live my life. And I, you know, I chased, chased, chased the riches and, and extra glory off the back of already winning an awards and being, you know, lauded for what I was doing. And, and that was a mistake and I learned that the hard way and I think it probably took the pandemic to slow me down. And made me, made me think, think a lot more. And the, you know, the company was, an interesting juncture. You know, we could have, there was opportunities to sell into, into bigger agencies. but it was right that we shut it down because I allow, I needed to, to allow my business partner, James, to, to, to grow as well personally and. By doing that, I would have put it into a position that wouldn't have been good for his health and his home life and all sorts of stuff. So at that point, I was reminded, you know, of what's really important to me and where I'd always got my, my version of richness and happiness, you know, inside out way of thinking. And so we just, we just let it go. And that was a, that was a, that was a difficult, difficult time, but also an empowering time. And then, yeah, then the Thrive Now thing came along, and, and that was, we were just about really to, to go somewhere, and it was at that point that I could see myself at that point falling back into the trap again, and I was at this, I've been here before, this is when, you know, I was just a freelance poker person before, and I'm being fed these things by external, external forces, you know, looking out into the world, business partners, needs of all these different people that I think I could help. And I'd forgotten about myself again. But before I got too deep into it, I'd recognized the signs again. And so it was, it was much easier to make that. So I think if we, we evolve, I think, and you know, it's just life experience. And if you kind of look back on Honest, And it, you know, it was a braver decision leaving 23D, I think, coming in and telling my team, I think I've taken this as far as I can. I need to, to live a more purpose led life. I need to live a life that's more aligned with, with who I am. And that was harder because I was leaving a team behind and I was impacting other people's lives. When it came to leaving Thrive Now. It's almost like it wasn't a decision. You know, I've gotten to that point where there is no other direction for me to go than to follow what I'm doing now and sharing, sharing my story and helping other people. And that's all I needed to do and I needed to simplify things back down again because my life was quite simple when I was just... Traveling around the world and talking and writing about a game, you know, and then I'd leave that behind and there was no baggage when I went home and then I could go off and do a lovely trip and then next thing I know I was in the Bahamas or I was in Las Vegas or I was, you know, in Monte Carlo. It was a, I didn't realize how good I had it. I had it so, so it got, it got, it's getting easier and easier as I get older and I get wiser.

Lovely. That's such a powerful story. I love hearing that. It's, it's so easy to think we need more, you know, with the whole, our entire culture is predicated on it and our entire business models are mostly predicated on growth. I mean, I've spent a lot of time around business people and it's all about growth and, you know, exits and this, that, and the other. You know, like some of the guys I work with, both male and female. You know, in a, in a, in a high pressure situation and they're working really hard and that's admirable, the work in hard ethic. I really struggle with the expense of the success chase though, because I'll ask a client like, Okay, so you're pushing all these hours. Tell me about your sleep. It's not good. Okay. Tell me about how your body feels. Not good. Tell me about your exercise routine. What exercise routine? And you're like, okay. So you're building this thing, right, that's going to amass you some money and all this expectations, which by the way, you do have no idea whether it's going to happen or not, because the future is so in flux now. And you may not be healthy enough to enjoy it. And literally, this is the worst business decision going. You know, if your health is not in, in the right space, and you've already kind of picked up on this a couple of times in our conversation, and it's, you know, dear to my heart, your health is your wealth. You know, it's a, it's a statement from a yoga teacher that I heard many years ago. But it's a no brainer, right? If you don't have your health, you don't have your business. Full stop. So forget your business and all your hours and all that kind of external commodification. If your body doesn't work very well, and you're not in good shape... everything else will go to pot as well. So it's so important. And I think health, we talk about it often thinking physically, but in my world, there's no distinction between mental and physical. They, yes, there are distinctions of course, but they're all connected, but they're not separate entities. So if your physical health's good, but your emotional health isn't, then the overall health isn't optimized or good. Whereas if we can start to balance them all, that really shifts. Which leads me to think, well, if we're on this kind of process of success and growth and, and, but not sure, like, how do I find the fulfillment? You're asking questions like, which bit of my life was good? Was it popping over to Monte Carlo and doing a thing and then going to, you know, Las Vegas? Or was it, you know, pushing hard in an agency, lots of hours and stretching? It's kind of, it's not hard to decide, is it? Like, well, which one was a better life? So I guess one of the things I hear and, and I'm sure all our, our listeners here as well, there is courage here in letting go. There's courage in letting go and perhaps what isn't right for you. And clearly you've done that multiple times recently and that courage to step into the unknown. And that really excites me when I, when I hear that from you. And obviously if I, if I, when I step into that space, stepping into the unknown with courage and trust. That's absolute power because I do wonder that the trap we get into is we think something's going to happen and it could be based on shaky grounds, you know, the pandemic showed us this, that all the business plans from 2020 just got torpedoed because of that. And there's going to be a whole host of changes coming up with all the things that's happening in the world. I wonder if you could say a little bit more around your focus on your kind of mental, emotional and physical health that you're really attuning to now as you think about fulfillment and what you need. How do you attend to those areas?

there's, there's, there's a couple of things that I do and I've actually just added, added one this week and it's taken me to a whole nother level. And I think this really plays into to what you practice with, you know, the mind and body and movement. morning routine is, is big for me, you know, I heard on a, I can't remember what part podcast it was, but someone said, find the thing in the morning that, that helps you swim upstream so that the rest of the day you can drift downstream and that can be whatever works for you. It could be going for a run. It can be, you know, having a workout, it can be meditating, it can be reading, it can be whatever you want to do. So I found what works for me is just a little bit of breath work while I'm in bed in the morning. Then I go and make myself a cup of tea. then I get back into bed and, I read for a bit. normally, you know, it's a, a kind of, a mindset story, positivity, whatever it may be, what I'm into at that time. and then I just do 10 minutes of meditation. And that for me just sets me up and that's what helps me swim upstream and the rest of the day swim downstream. but what now I've started doing is at the other end of the day is adding in some exercise. So I've just joined a place where, cause I'm doing a lot of, you know, writing my story at the moment. So I do that and I go in and then I, two hours intensive writing and then I've got the afternoon to. to plan, do admin, have calls, conversations, you know, come on wonderful podcasts like this, and then I do exercise. But what I needed to do was find a place where While I'm making that routine to make it as easy and as accessible for me. So I'm in a place where I'm effectively working in the gym. So there are no excuses for me. And I can't tell you how good it's been for my mental health just this week. So I've got my day ends booked marked. And I'm only going to do that four days a week. And then Friday it's going to be whatever you want to do. So I want to enjoy having a simplified routine and now that I'm not running an agency or trying to grow a movement, my inbox is really quiet and I'm, oh, it's honestly, it's just lovely. It's like I could just focus on me now. so it's, you know, it's novel, it's fresh. So, you know, let's caveat that. This is the first week of me doing it. But yeah, it feels great. I've kind of feel, feel like I've got everything in the right place at the moment and everything's pulling in this, in the right direction for me,

That's really, really great. And, you know, I'm going to say it because it's part of the MMM process that... Movement is absolutely fundamental. It's the hole that I saw when I was working psychologically only that people weren't connecting to their bodies and from the simple things like a breath work practice or a more gentle like yoga practice to running, to walking, to feeding and. And I've shared my story many times, and to kind of just keep it short, I train most days. And train means, it's just a term I use, but I move most days. So it'll look like, I mean, I have a five million year year step count. That's my, that's my target. Sounds a lot. It sounds a lot, but it's only about 13, 500 a day. So it's a really like, what a cool goal, but actually 13, 500, super doable. It's not

you're you're not counting to five million, are you? Not each though.

Not a shame. No, no, it's

41, 444. 41, 445. Come on Sal, you're almost at six figures.

I know that's why we use tech, right? You know, that just I look at the watch, it says what I've done. I'm like, yeah, I'm not too caught up on it. It's it's again. It's arbitrary. It's all for me is about can I move and can I say connected to my body? Because there's a joyfulness to that. There's a live and aliveness to that and You know, as I've said many times, you know, I'm, I'm now, pushing half over half a century, which to some people they get the old kind of like, well, you kind of should be slowing down and taking these like no absolute rubbish. This is time to execute and go, go more. And I'll do all sorts of practices, but my practice is the first thing in the morning. I bracket the morning. So the first. Good few hours a day is for movement and that could look like a walk with the dog someday, swim, it's a gym session, a lot of different gym sessions of different types, but that's my time. For someone else that might not work at all. You might get up and literally just need to go straight into your work scenario and that's fine. Or you might need to meditate and that's fine. But finding where the friction is or least friction to add in movement is an absolute win win for everyone. It's a win for your body, it's a win for your mind. And finding where it is. So, I've got a buddy I was with the other day and he can't do morning exercise. It's not his thing. But he's after work. I'm like, awesome, just bracket that time, do it then. I'm completely the other way. So not that one way is right, but it's about making sure it gets put in as a, as a, as an important piece of your day. Because if you're moving well, if your body is strong and supple and able to do things, The expression in the mind and the emotional state is vital, but I too will meditate, but I do it after my exercise. I go upstream first with lots of stuff and then I come downstream to say that that works for me. I kind of want to bring this to some summary now. so we've spoken a lot about many different things and your story is vast and I can't wait to hear your story pure and unadulterated and, and you're of course always welcome back on my, on my show anytime. I kind of want to tap back in. You know, we spoke a while back, didn't we? And we were saying about what I call the looked at life. So we can look at Instagram or LinkedIn or you look at the person with a very nice car. Whatever the thing you're looking at. And we can assume that what that looks like feels like something. For instance, if you have a, let's say someone's looking good and they've got all this wealth, let's say. And you can assume that they are, they're happy, they're content, they're fulfilled. And yet I know from a coaching practice of coaching a lot of high net worth people that they're not necessarily happy or content. They have a lot of money, but they'll come to me because we're working on existential challenges. And we spoke a little bit around the distinction and the difference between what you see on the outside... And what you feel on the inside, it can be very, very different. And what kind of, would it be okay to summarize on your own experience, which I was really touched my heart when you told me about, of course, of course you, what you said to me about how you weigh your trauma. Are you happy to share a little bit about that, that description for, for, for us?

Yeah, big, big time. You know, I think I touched on that a little bit earlier where the picture that was being painted for me during my recovery in the early days, you know, was one that wasn't very bright. So I learned very, very early on that the, the signposts that so called happiness that this consumer driven world that we live in, you know, you know, there for us to follow, just, just, just don't work. And while they weren't going to work for me, so I was forced down a different path really, because of the, the, the Western world that I was growing up in and you know what, I found a much nicer path to, to, to go down and, you know, I'll share a little story with you. I sat in there. I was sat in the pub, you know, I do like a pub, if anyone knows me, with, with my mum last year and explaining to her that, yeah, it's okay, mum, I've, you know, left this video company and, you know, just kind of assuring her that I wasn't having a midlife crisis meltdown and actually that I was just doing this for fulfillment And I've sat with my mum, and she asked me, you know, why I had never shown a huge interest in, in trying to support charities associated with, with burns victims or defigurements, and it wasn't like I wasn't interested in helping those people. But I said to her, and I pointed over to an imaginary corner in the, in the, in the pub, and I said, I'm really interested in helping that, that person over there in the corner that, you know, is Instagram cookie cutter perfect That has probably like stepped out of a Range Rover and it's got all the gear, looks great, sit down Anyone would pass them and look and be a bit envious about the life that they had But just below the surface They're really unhappy. They've got a lot of trauma going on and But what do they have to complain about, right? What do they have to complain about? And I was like, there's a much bigger problem that we have in society with, with where we look for validation and we look for it because we've been turned from citizens into consumers and it's all about driving money and and we've got it so wrong. And I'm just so thankful that what happened to me happened 30 years ago when there weren't, you know, camera phones and there wasn't social media and that my integration back into society was made a lot easier because of that. Now the problem's got so much worse in the last 30 years and we're seeing that the mental health is on the rise. So I want to make it, you know, a vocation of mine to be able to. To help people understand that there is a different way, that it's all about internal validation. And it's so little about external validation. And, and there is that Richardson that we talked about. And it, and it's not in, it's not in Prada bags. And it's not in Range Rover. And it's, and it's not in getting Botox and filling your lips. And it's not about the Kardashians. It's... And so often you, you, you get the things that you're chasing. You remember this, we know this as kids, we can all tap into our own journeys. You know, that's the thing. It's like the amount of presents we get as kids and you get something up and it makes you happy for 10 minutes and you throw it aside and, but we all remember the incredible holiday that we had. And if we went to Disneyland or, you know, that kid that we met, you know, when we were running down the beach and. These are the things, these are the things that, that impact your soul, that, that, that raise your consciousness, that, that make you feel, you know, we, I want to feel sad, I want to feel happy, you want to fall in love with, with, with other people, that's where richness come from. It doesn't come from material things. And the quicker we learn that as individuals, then the more content we'll be as human beings.

Beautiful, beautiful. So, so true. So, so true. We swim on the surface, but the magic's in the depths. Always. Yeah. Yeah. Go deep, go deep. and I resonate, you know, it's so much of my, my trappings that I was chasing a short story for me. I was a photographer back when I was in my thirties and it was a struggle to get going. That's a story for another podcast, but it I finally got going and I got to a point where I was earning a lot of money from it. I was getting paid very, very well. I was doing very good work and. And my heart wasn't in it at the end. I literally had, like you, checked out. People are like, what are you doing? You're like, you're, you're so successful. You've got money, you know, you've got clients, you've booked up so much. I was like, I'm done. I'm literally, I feel empty going to a shoot. And that is no way to show up at anything. and I retired. I, I wrote my own, I resigned from my own company. I retired the business. And I went on at that time to become a yoga teacher. And that is not a well paid trade compared to the photography trade I was in. So I probably took a 66% pay cut and it was like, wow, that was massive. And yet going to a yoga studio and seeing change, it's priceless. Now, yes, of course we need to pay the bills, pay the rent, the mortgage, whatever you, you need the basics covered, but that's practicalities. You need to cover that for sure. So we don't want to diminish that, but the deep stuff that matters. It's about a conversation or impact or something. It's not about a 300 pound yoga mat or some nonsense that we get caught up in. Like I really need that thing. And it's soon as we realize that and realize that who does this serve? It's a question I use myself. It's a question I will always ask a coaching client. And it's a question I invite all of us to think about who does this serve? If you're thinking about buying another thing, spending your money on something else, who does that serve? Does it serve you? Or does it serve the, probably the organization that wants your money to go to their bank account and not yours? And that's fine if it's transactional, but if it's you're trying to buy happiness and fulfillment and that's your success model It will be like a sieve and empty before you know it. So yes, deep stuff. Go deep. Mark, thank you for your time. I wonder if there is one last thought you could share with us about you've shared so much of course already, but one last thought to kind of summarize about this whole thing about what is fulfillment, what is success. The real stuff, not the illusory stuff, but the real stuff.

I think the, it's about authenticity and an inside out way of thinking. So you need to, there needs to be balance, I think, between putting yourself first. It's okay to be selfless. It's okay not to be a people pleaser. But at the same time, you need a level of consciousness that is balanced with that. And if you get those two things right. You won't become a narcissist. You'll, you'll, you'll find your core values. You'll go deep into your soul and, and those things will anchor you. And, and then those things will make you more attractive to other people as well. So you'll end up getting, what you need from, from the external world, but just in different ways. It will be in, in the depth of the relationships we have with other people, because if you're showing up. As your true self, then, then that's what people, that's what people want.

Amazing. To me, my mind came up with two words to summarize what you said. Ease, not effort. Just ease into that. Be yourself. Be authentic. Be magnetic. Be, courageous. Trust and Authenticity rather than the efforting and, you know, the overworking or whatever that thing is, which is toxic. So Mark, amazing. Thank you so much for sharing some of your story at some level. I know your story is even bigger than that, but so much you shared, which is really powerful to hear personally, for my dear listener. I trust that there's so much that Mark, and hopefully I've been able to bounce has really got you thinking around. How do you think about success? What do you think about fulfillment? How are you living? and Are You On A Place That's Working For You. So lots of thoughts. It's a provocational podcast. It's one to inspire. I hope it has inspired you. So until the next time, thank you and goodbye. Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed the episode, please subscribe and if a friend would benefit from hearing this, do send it on to them as well. If you would like to get in touch yourself, then you can go to my website, which is sal jeffries.com, spelled S A L J E F E R I E s sal jeffries.com. Hit the get in touch link and there you can send me a direct message. If you'd like to go one step further and learn whether coaching could help you overcome a challenge or a block in your life, then do reach out and I offer a call where we can discuss how this may be able to help you. Until the next time, take care.