TEITR 425 : Wally Gebrael

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[00:00:00] Veronica: In this episode, we tackle the uncomfortable truth about Granny Flats. They're talked about everywhere, but poorly understood by most people making big financial decisions around them from minimum block [00:00:10] sizes to council rules costs, and design trade-offs. There's a growing gap between what homeowners think is possible and what actually stacks up in the real world.

[00:00:18] Veronica: Still lead us in this [00:00:20] discussion. We've invited Granny flat, expert Wally Gabriel, who has spent more than a decade working at the coal face of Australia's granny flat boom. Having overseen thousands of builds across [00:00:30] multiple housing models, Wally brings a grounded perspective on what works, what doesn't, and where most people often get caught out when they're planning, buying, or building with secondary dwellings in [00:00:40] mind.

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[00:01:18] Veronica: Our guest today is [00:01:20] Wally Gabriel, co-director of Granny Flat Solutions, new South Homes and Tiny Home Solutions. Wally has overseen the delivery of more than two and a half thousand granny flats since founding Granny Flat [00:01:30] Solutions in 2011.

[00:01:31] Veronica: He also works across broader housing models and established the Granny Flat Foundation reflecting a strong focus on practical outcomes and social impact. So [00:01:40] welcome, Wally. This is a conversation that we haven't had very often. And on that, the elephant in the room. In fact, we did with a legal expert talking about green flats a couple of weeks ago.

[00:01:49] Veronica: But, [00:01:50] uh, we are very happy to be talking to you today. We really wanna learn more about this, growing space. Do we call it that?

[00:01:55] Wally: Fantastic.

[00:01:56] CB: I always love when we're doing new episodes, I think 400 odd now, and, yeah, we [00:02:00] haven't really covered this. And I think typically, you know, we could have covered this from a, you know, an investor trying to throw another property on the back of their block, block of land somewhere and trying to increase their yield.

[00:02:09] CB: [00:02:10] But it's also, you know, a lot of owner occupies, right? Trying to actually build 'em for growing families. How, what's sort of driving that sort of revival alongside the investor?

[00:02:19] Wally: [00:02:20] when you look at the cost of buying a house, the. These days, I'm based in Sydney, so I'm talking about the Sydney market, and I'm sure it's the same in other states. But yeah, like trying to buy a house these days is, you know, the median house price is over a [00:02:30] million dollars. And if you are young and can't afford to buy a million dollar house, well then you've got parents who have got big backyards and thinking, for a fraction of that price, we could build a granny from the backyard.

[00:02:39] Wally: The kids have got a [00:02:40] kickstart somewhere to live, and at the same time it's increasing the value of the property. So sort of a win-win.

[00:02:45] CB: And you see it on the other end as well, like sometimes their parents have, you know, maybe haven't got [00:02:50] enough wealth behind them. The kids have, and they've got the house and they're actually, you know, four grannies or you know, maybe a surviving widow or something as well. Like the typical what a granny fight used to be, I guess, originally [00:03:00] for.

[00:03:00] Wally: Absolutely. So yeah, we do get a lot of downsizes as well. the big family home is no longer needed, so they'll move into the granny flat, and rent out the house or give it to the kids to live in and look after them. So, [00:03:10] yeah, it's sort of a mixed bag of different needs, I guess.

[00:03:12] Veronica: You said something interesting, or very casually when you sort of answered the first question that we threw at you and that was adds [00:03:20] value to the property. We do wanna talk a bit about that because I'm not so certain in all cases it does add value or it might add some value, but does it add more than the cost [00:03:30] or does it then impinge on capital growth depending on what was done?

[00:03:32] Veronica: So I'd love to tease out, the best solutions in this space versus those that actually don't necessarily [00:03:40] deliver in terms of adding value.

[00:03:41] Wally: yeah, it was a very generic statement, but in insane it. I mean, look, I've done a lot of research through realestate.com just to find properties with grain flats on there [00:03:50] and then try to do a comparison from, just from my knowledge, just to see, Hey, how much more are you adding mean? I can generally look at one and think they must have spent a hundred fifty, one eighty, 20,000, whatever it was, and then [00:04:00] similar property. I'm not expert in the field, but I sort of got a grasp what then. I do find that those properties that who do have a grain flat, and I'm talking about good grain flat, garage conversion, not that I'm [00:04:10] knocking them, but I'm talking about a proper built grain flat. they do sell for that. On average, that $200,000 more, I find that that's asking price. So I don't, think that [00:04:20] it's adding a significant amount. In other words, if you're spending 200,000 to build a granny flat, you're not gonna sell your property for 500,000 more. So you do get your money back. So from what I've seen, we work with a lot of property [00:04:30] investors. Their model is not to build a value flat that sell a property. They don't see huge capital growth in that. I think where the growth is is from an investor's point of view, where all of a sudden, rather than [00:04:40] just renting out the front house and getting their six, $700 a week, wherever it might be, they've got more value now because that granny flat also yields another four or $500 a week.

[00:04:48] Wally: So spend an extra [00:04:50] thousand dollars to buy a property means they're. Yield Is gonna be higher. So, we're not talking about adding property value. It's not from a resale point of view. I'm probably talking more from an investor's point of view, [00:05:00] uh, higher yields and returns and so on In saying that. I've seen cases where, and this is a classic example, I've shared this to many people. We built a green flat, must have been [00:05:10] 8, 9, 10 years ago, maybe now, on a property in Wayland in the, um, western suburbs and right next to us there was another property being another grand flat being built by another company, and we [00:05:20] built a really high, the customer asked for a really high end run that was for his family living, whereas the one that was, built next year was very sort of standard, very, you know, flat roofs.

[00:05:28] Wally: I think it was a vinyl clad and [00:05:30] not there's anything wrong with that, but again, a very, very different type of model to what we were doing. Anyway, in the end, he realized that his family wasn't gonna move into us. We had to rent it out. So there were two graining flats, literally next door to each other, both on the [00:05:40] market for rent. At the time I recall very, very clearly, he's one got a lot more interest. I think he ended up getting three $80 a week at the time. The one next door really, really struggled though both [00:05:50] 60 square meters. Both had two bedrooms, one bathroom, but the quality of the build and the inclusions made a huge difference. Now, I can't remember how much the one rented for, pretty sure he said it was under the [00:06:00] $200, sorry, yeah, under the $300 a week, whereas he was getting three 80 and he's one rent it out straight away. So there's value in building a good quality building. And sometimes we just add something on that's [00:06:10] not to that high spec.

[00:06:11] Wally: Then it can devalue, from a rental point of view, and even I, I believe they devalue the property value.

[00:06:17] CB: it's more sometimes. There's probably [00:06:20] clients who come to you and say, you know, I need a granny flat, but you know, it's just not the right block or it's just hasn't got enough backyard. Like, is there a lot of clients sometimes that, you know, they just don't [00:06:30] expect it's gonna cost what it's gonna cost.

[00:06:31] CB: Right. And is that, what are some of those case studies where you, you sort of rock up and just go, this is just really not gonna work.

[00:06:38] Wally: And honestly that happens a [00:06:40] lot. I mean, if you look online, you look at what the minimum requirements are for a granny flat, it says, you know, 450 square meters of the 12 meter front each. So, you know, probably 70% of the [00:06:50] properties in New South Wales may tick that box and you think, great, I can build a granny flat on there. but yeah, the reality is when you go out there and on those, some of those blocks, there might be big trees in the backyard or some, you know, easements, [00:07:00] which we see quite often, drainage, easements, things like that. And that straight away. Rules out the blocks. So you might have a big backyard, but if there's a diagonal drainage edge that rang right through there, that's limiting what you can do [00:07:10] there.

[00:07:10] Wally: so it's not just a numbers game, it's, it's all about being able to physically build from a planning point of view as well. But yeah, we, we've been out to many where we said, look, I don't think this is the right block for it. You don't have the space as [00:07:20] much as you think. and even though it's a 60 square meter footprint. I often tell people you need at least a hundred square meters of available land, at least as a minimum by the time you add your setbacks, your [00:07:30] front, you know, between the buildings, the sides, the back, and you wanna leave a bit of backyard for the front house as well. 'cause again, that's something that can reduce the value but not have, not given the front house, the backyard.

[00:07:39] Wally: [00:07:40] So all those types of things. So I often tell people at least a hundred square meter is what you need. Um, yeah. So people would, might go out with a tape measure. I've got, I've got 70 square meters, 60 square les, but that's just the. [00:07:50] It just doesn't, yeah.

[00:07:51] Veronica: It's a good point that you raise about, you know, thinking about the front house as well, because I know I've seen it a lot where there's no backyard at all for the front [00:08:00] house. It's like, oh, they've got a front yard, who cares? It's like, well, nobody actually wants to send the kids out to play on the trampoline in the Front yard, and then there's privacy considerations. There's a whole, a whole lot of things. But it is interesting too [00:08:10] with the, you know, that it's widely acknowledged. We've got a housing crisis Looking at all directions for solutions to this. And a lot of people are, saying, well, oh, granny Flat's a [00:08:20] logical solution for those people who've got a block that's big enough for it.

[00:08:22] Veronica: But not all councils are necessarily supporting that, are they? So, you know, I came across somewhere very recently that they were expecting that just because they had [00:08:30] a certain size block of land. A little bit what you're saying there, it was big enough technically in terms of, 450 square meters or more, and 12 meter frontage.

[00:08:37] Veronica: But it's like the council doesn't view it [00:08:40] that same way. So, what other hurdles do they have to get around in terms of planning rules?

[00:08:44] Wally: So in 2009, the state government introduced a policy back then it was called the 2009 Affordable Rental [00:08:50] Housing and cep. Basically it forced all councils to allow granny flats. So they, whether their planning controls said yes or not, it sort of overruled that. So [00:09:00] sort of councils have to quickly jump on board and start allowing them In saying that that legislation wall still exists, there are some limitations.

[00:09:06] Wally: So for example, if you're in a, um, flood area or a high bushfire [00:09:10] area, conservation area, heritage. Northern Beach, we come across a lot of scenic, protected, environmental zones. they're ruled out. So in those particular cases, it's not as straightforward to get your [00:09:20] granny flat approved. So you can't get through a private certified, you'd have to go through council in those regards. So whilst councils do acknowledge and they are pro granny [00:09:30] flats these days, you still gotta go through the whole hurdle of getting neighbors to agree to it. councils to agree to it. and again, those, for example, environmentally sensitive areas, you know, if you're trying to remove a tree [00:09:40] for a granny flat, there's just no way they can allow that. and understand that if you are in a flood affected area, well then, you know, there's a big risk on council ticking a box saying yes, you can build when it's a flood area. So, look, we [00:09:50] still have to overcome all those issues. if none of those apply and say if you're in one of those areas, where none of those things apply, then it's a very simple, straightforward. Our CDC process where you engage [00:10:00] a private certifier or council and basically tick some boxes. We apply our setbacks, our heights, our landscaping, and it's, it's so easy to get them approved.

[00:10:07] Veronica: you mentioned earlier about sort of converted [00:10:10] garages being at one end of the spectrum and sort of a, a very simple flat roof, vinyl clad structure somewhere in the middle, and then something more highend. [00:10:20] which I'm sort of have seen some of those sort of more highend ones, they look a little bit more like shalles perhaps.

[00:10:25] Veronica: what are the options people have and maybe there's a bunch of cowboys out there [00:10:30] flogging these really cheap and nasty granny flats. I don't know. 'cause I'm really not spending much time in that space. what are people thinking when they first think I'm gonna put a granny flat in?

[00:10:37] Veronica: Are they thinking I'm gonna go and buy a kit home [00:10:40] and do it that way? Is that one of the options? if you can give us, I guess, an overview of what people will be thinking and what they should be thinking.

[00:10:47] Wally: often the first question I get asked when somebody wants to build around play is [00:10:50] how much does it cost? And. Often just by giving them an indicative price. Sometimes it rules people out 'cause they are looking for just a real budget. some people

[00:10:56] Wally: ask

[00:10:57] Veronica: A, fixed caravan.

[00:10:58] Wally: yeah, exactly.

[00:10:59] Wally: Right. And people [00:11:00] do ask that and they say, what about trying to buy a kit from you? And I say, look, we don't do kit homes, but it is an option. But when you re and I've done the numbers myself, I looked at the cost of buying a kit, for example. But by [00:11:10] the time I still get my plans approved, do all our site costs, you know, put our peas in to start and I get all the labor. To put that keep together. you might save a bit of money, but only if you're very hands [00:11:20] on. If you are engaging trades to put it together for you, then honestly there's no real saving in time or in cost either. Uh, but yeah, the people, different people have different needs. Some people do just want a [00:11:30] room for family to live in.

[00:11:31] Wally: It could be just a room with a bathroom. don't necessarily need full two bedrooms or a full kitchen. and so we were very. Budget conscious, which is fine. I mean, everyone's got budgets they need [00:11:40] to stick to. but it really does depend on, on the situation. And like I mentioned before, a higher SPECT granny flat is likely to rent out for a lot more and attract more people.

[00:11:49] Wally: So [00:11:50] a lot of the ones that we do are customized. So. We have customers saying, this is my backyard. What can I fit on there? And then, you know, if they, if they've got a really nice home, it's got nice views, well then it's [00:12:00] almost criminal to put a little shack, a little box on there that doesn't take advantage of the views or it doesn't look like the main home, which just feels like being dropped in there. I take that personally when somebody says that's what they wanna do, [00:12:10] I feel like they're really diminishing the value or the opportunity they've got on that block. So the other ones that would say, look, you got a great opportunity here. Let's design something that's. It takes advantage of those views, you know, [00:12:20] north on that side there, let's put our living room to the back and, you know, put some glass sliding doors and take advantage of that backyard and those types of things.

[00:12:27] Wally: So the other types of thing that we try to encourage, not, not for any [00:12:30] cost reasons or anything, but just we wanna be proud of the finished products and what we deliver. So, yeah, its, it's always best to design. Something's gonna be suitable for. For the block and for the area. [00:12:40] But if it is a garage conversion, they need, that's, you know, not something we do.

[00:12:43] Veronica: But I've, you know, I've seen many, many of those and there are companies that can do that, that can just refurbish a garage, um, just for [00:12:50] someone to live in. It could be a very cheap rent. That's what, you know, leads to different people and, and that's okay. given that sort of variance, what are we talking for? Cost. If you're looking at a [00:13:00] 60 square meter bill or a garage, if they're just doing, convert a garage, obvious, obviously it's gonna be smaller than 60 square meters, but maybe not right up to custom, I guess people could, could spend half a million if they [00:13:10] wanted to on a, All bells and whistles. I imagine granny flat, but what would be a typical budget that people need to be thinking about if they're gonna build a quality dwelling?

[00:13:17] Wally: we try to be as transparent as possible. When [00:13:20] somebody says, what's a granny flat cost? I'd say, look, I really need to see the block and need to understand what it is you want. you know, is it brick? Is it flat? Do you want tiled roof, colorbond roof? What's [00:13:30] your block like? Is it sloping downhill?

[00:13:31] Wally: Is it sloping towards the road? 'cause again, there are different service connection, considerations there. What's access like? You know, we use small bingo, which is gonna be on site for two weeks, just [00:13:40] taking small loads of salt out to the front or. Could bring a big excavator in, although Siteworks we've done in a day. So there are so many considerations. But to answer your question, Rocky, it's, I often tell [00:13:50] people our pricing in Sydney starts at about the one 60 mark, and then from there it's going to really depend on the site itself and then what people need. And you mentioned before half a million dollars, and that might [00:14:00] sound absurd, but we have actually done a project on the Northern Beaches, which cost a bit over 500,000 and it was six square meters and it had a nice view. [00:14:10] Best way to explain it. This is probably the nicest block I've ever seen. It had, full 360 panoramic views of the ocean and it sat up on top of a cliff. So it wasn't so much just the building itself [00:14:20] that cost the money, but access. So it was in a very steep downhill, from the street. It went straight down. I'm talking more than 40 meters from the front. Boundary to the [00:14:30] back. And so even we had to crane in several excavators to do groundwork just to get that ready. and then just establishing and start putting up fencing. It was a high wind area, so every one of those [00:14:40] fencing panels have to be, we have to put stakes in the ground and cement them in just to hold them up.

[00:14:43] CB: So all of those things, before you even start building, you're at, you know, 150 to $20,000 before you put a [00:14:50] slab down. So, That's a commitment to having a granny flat. You know, some people might be deterred by that if they think, oh, it's really just too hard, too expensive. I guess if you've got that type of property, it might. You might have a bit [00:15:00] more money than the average person. Funny. I know that house you're talking about.

[00:15:03] Wally: but like we look at the finished result, that it's all floor to ceiling glass and real high end finishes. It's just, [00:15:10] really nice.

[00:15:10] Veronica: What about the council approval process? If it's just a CDC? So that means basically you just fulfill development control plans, right? and as long as you fulfill those [00:15:20] requirements, you can build whatever the. Neighbor could come home one day and just suddenly discover that granny flat's been built next door in their backyard.

[00:15:26] Veronica: whereas if you've gotta go to council, 'cause you've got those other mitigating [00:15:30] circumstances like trees, environmental concerns, heritage concerns, et cetera, et cetera. how long does that add to the process? do councils, do they, I mean, they're often blamed for [00:15:40] slowing projects down.

[00:15:41] Veronica: How much of that is regulation? How much is poor planning or unrealistic expectation? What sort of things can really derail a project or really, really grind it to a [00:15:50] halt?

[00:15:50] Wally: Yeah. Um, look, I, I'd have to, with councils, it's always gonna be council specific. There are some councils which are a lot easier to deal with when it comes to Grand Feds than others who. Would [00:16:00] find excuses or reasons to slide down an application and, you know, find any reason to knock it back. look a, as a guide, I tell people once we get through the DA process, they need to allow at least [00:16:10] six months extra. Now, in some cases we, we can get them approved in a month or so. You still need a clear construction certificate, so on. So they're great in those circumstances, but there are [00:16:20] councils which, um, you can very easily a project can sit in council for, you know, 3, 4, 5, 6 months. I'm thinking of a specific project at the moment where it's been a deer was approved [00:16:30] back in 2020, uh, just before COVID. In that DA consent, there was a deferred commencement. So in other words, they said it's been approved subject to you getting an easement through the neighboring property. So that just throws spatter [00:16:40] in the work. 'cause they've said, yeah, you can build it, but just before you do, please go invest another 40, 50 to $60,000 in an easement.

[00:16:46] Wally: So owners decide, you know, probably not, let's not worry about it. [00:16:50] And then I thought, okay, we may as well do it. We really do need to provide accommodation. So then COVID hit, so then they put that on hold. Then by the time they got around to doing it, council said, oh, your time's run out. You know this was meant to be [00:17:00] done in you a 24 month period. And they pleaded and argued, and council, I'm sorry, you know that 24 months is up. And even though it was COVID, they wouldn't give an extension time. So they started the process [00:17:10] again. and it's only just been approved now. So this ran 2026, so late last year. They approved it second time around with the easement and everything else.

[00:17:17] Wally: But to me, that's just red tape. That's. [00:17:20] Going through council. And the reason they went through council was, and this is probably a very good lesson, they had every opportunity in this particular project to go through a CD, C process. In other words, avoid council, [00:17:30] but they thought they wanted to challenge the reset back.

[00:17:32] Wally: So instead of a three meter reset back, which is what a typical grain flat requires, they thought it'd be a waste of space. Can we try to challenge it and, Let's try [00:17:40] for one meter setback, and there are cases where councils have approved that as though if you know, if you can justify it and there are merits for it and so on.

[00:17:46] Wally: Some councils allow that. In this particular case, they [00:17:50] did, but they said with that because of the way the block slopes and what we had proposed as a drainage system, they said, no, can't be done. We weren't done this way through an easement and so on. But had they done it as a [00:18:00] CDC with a three meter setback, this would've been approved back in 2020.

[00:18:03] Wally: that would've been. Had four or five years of living in that graining flat, whereas we're now 2026 and they haven't started building yet. So just [00:18:10] be, I mean, that's a very isolated, rare case, but there are cases where people go through council because they wanna challenge something they shouldn't, and we always encourage 'em not to, but you know, if that's what you wanna do, we're happy to [00:18:20] challenge council and it's in our best interest to fight them and try to get this approved. but in some cases, you know, it takes a lot longer. And from an investor's point of view, I'll often tell people, Hey, do you really wanna wait six extra [00:18:30] months? Try to get through Proof Street Council. Yes, you might lose an extra meter of your backyard, but you are gonna be your grandfather a lot quicker and get your extra three, $400 a week.

[00:18:37] Wally: So think of it that way. That's six months of lost rent. [00:18:40] Yes, you've lost the meter of your backyard, but you've still got enough backyard. But some people are very fixed in the way they think and that, and I definitely wanna push back and let's go through council. And so there's a risk you take in [00:18:50] doing that.

[00:18:50] CB: obviously you are in, um, the Sydney sort of central coast, you know, the Sydney greater region, I guess. house prices are very expensive, you know, and, The cost for a Granny flat and you know, [00:19:00] it, it can probably be recouped, whether it's in rent or you know, like you said around Capital Bay.

[00:19:03] CB: But we've seen lots of clients over the years. I'm gonna buy in a regional town, it's gonna buy a big block. I'm gonna throw a granny [00:19:10] flat on. And you know, do you find that if you, you know, just with all your experience with Granny Flats, like, you know, often it works for you and a lot of your clients because they're in, real buying [00:19:20] sort of affluent areas, really, where they're. House prices are very expensive and they can get their money back. And once you start stepping away into sort of the more regional or more outskirts [00:19:30] of other capital cities, that it's really hard to make it stack up from an an investment point of view. Is, that your sort of belief?

[00:19:35] Wally: depends on the area. I mean, we do a lot of work around, um, [00:19:40] Newcastle, sort of, cessnock around those areas. there seems to be a big push the moment to buy those here. 'cause there's still quite affordable, and I mean that's not quite rural, but it's, it is out of greater [00:19:50] Sydney. It seems to be affordable and the rental numbers are still stacking up. So there's sort of been a, I've found over the last probably 12, maybe 18 months, it's been a bit of [00:20:00] push up north a bit. again, that's surely to make it stack up when you talk rural. Rural, it's a bit more limiting. So not so much with space.

[00:20:07] Wally: You've got heaps of more space and some councils though. I'll give you an [00:20:10] example. Hills Shire and Hornsby Shire Councils, they're not rural, they're, they're Sydney, cause they've got a lot of rural areas in their local government area, they actually allow you to build bigger granny [00:20:20] flats in about 120 square meters in some cases. So that's like double the size of a standard granny flat. So we're talking three four bedroom granny flats now, plus a garage. It's a house. That's 'cause you [00:20:30] are in a rural zone, but when you talk out of Greater Sydney. So again, we do some work in areas like orange. we don't work in Coffs Harbor and the cost there from [00:20:40] us 'cause we're a Sydney based company.

[00:20:41] Wally: So for us to transform material up there, it does cost a bit more than it does in Sydney. As for rentals, I honestly dunno what the rental marks are like over [00:20:50] there. Access is great. They, they're the best ones to work on. We're not navigating past you, our side one meter wide path to, so that's great.

[00:20:57] Wally: Deliveries can be placed anywhere on site. Again, you look at [00:21:00] some Sydney areas where they've got a very small front yard, big backyard, a small front yard. Well, my bricks are delivered. Where's that gonna go? you know, it's delivered in the front. It's all gotta be hand delivered to the back, but it's gotta sit somewhere.

[00:21:09] Wally: [00:21:10] So, you know, residential is gray, but some cases you've got those site. Things that we've gotta look at and consider.

[00:21:16] CB: what was the price of a granny flat, like when you were doing this, you know, let's say 2018 or [00:21:20] something. Like what would a, a granny flat a cost there, you know, it's, you said 160 K now, you know, or 200 k granny flat today would've been What back then do you think?

[00:21:29] Wally: when we [00:21:30] started this business in 2011. Our price is a hundred thousand. And when I say starting price, we did so many grant flats in that a hundred, a hundred, 1,000 $20,000 price point. And the [00:21:40] truth is from about 2011 to about 2019, that only jumped up a few percent. So we started about a hundred. By 2019, our starting price is about one 20, and then as soon as COVID hit, [00:21:50] that started to climb. Now we're still delivering a similar size, well, same size product and still two bedrooms with a bathroom and a kitchen and laundry and everything else. But just the price of labor materials went up. [00:22:00] So right now the average, average price is around that 180 to 200,000 for a grave. But there was, it was a very slow creep from 2011 [00:22:10] 2019. And then, you know, over those few years it started to just very sharp, uh, incline. And probably over the last 12 months, or maybe even 8, 10, 24 months, it's sort of plateaued a [00:22:20] bit. So it's not going up as crazy as it was during COVID.

[00:22:23] Veronica: I'm on a personal mission to help more people make better property decisions. You know, most people don't realize that they can cost themselves [00:22:30] hundreds of thousands of dollars over the medium to long term when they make property decisions without all of the information that they need. And what I do is help people with tricky real estate [00:22:40] problems, which offer masqueraders simple questions like, should I sell my investment property because the interest re payments are hurting, or should I buy before I sell?

[00:22:48] Veronica: Or the other way around. [00:22:50] You could connect with me and access all of the tools that I've created to help you make better property decisions at Veronica Morgan dot com au. And there you'll find resources for first home [00:23:00] buyers, details about my buyer's agent mentoring program. You could connect with my Sydney based property management and buyer's agency teams, Australia wide vendor advocacy.

[00:23:09] Veronica: Or ask me [00:23:10] for introduction to the small group of buyer agents that I would personally recommend across the country. That's Veronica Morgan dot com au.

[00:23:17] Veronica: If you're considering a property move, which is buying your first [00:23:20] time, upgrading, renovating, or investing, the team here at Alcove would love to help you think through your decision and get the finance right.

[00:23:27] Veronica: Please go to cove.com au to [00:23:30] reach out.

[00:23:30] Veronica: what should people be focusing on when they are budgeting for a granny flat? You talk about sort of a, a more high-end finish is important. and obviously some of the un the hidden [00:23:40] costs such as the site costs, can contribute. To the overall cost without really, you're not gonna get that back in rent, for example.

[00:23:47] Veronica: so what should they be thinking about when they're [00:23:50] budgeting for a granny flat?

[00:23:51] Wally: I believe it's, careful planning for me, I always think that's the most important thing because you've got 60 square minutes to play with. That's the maximum we got. And you [00:24:00] want, I've always said this, when you walk in a given bit of a wow factor, it's gotta be functional space. So I think from a planning point of view, that's very, very, very important. You wanna make it feel light and open and, [00:24:10] you know, maximize the sun and. Just make it dark and dingy. So that, that's one thing. But in terms of factoring in budget and so on, the site does, it does play a big [00:24:20] impact on that.

[00:24:20] Wally: so I'm not sure if I'm answering your, question correctly, but.

[00:24:22] Veronica: Well, it's just 'cause everyone's gonna be thinking, particularly, investors are definitely gonna be thinking, I wanna keep the cost down. Right, because they're, they're just thinking [00:24:30] about income. They're not even thinking about, like you said, they're not even thinking about resale, which just means they're not even thinking about overall value.

[00:24:35] Veronica: They're just thinking about income. So if that's the case, they're gonna obviously wanna keep the cost down. [00:24:40] An owner occupier, it'll depend who's there intending to live in there. Are they gonna rent it out or is it gonna be Airbnb or is it gonna be They're elderly parents or the kids, [00:24:50] as you say.

[00:24:50] Veronica: I mean, so I imagine all of these things will play into what they, think is gonna be important. but from a design point of view, like as you are talking, I'm thinking to myself landscaping, [00:25:00] because I'm thinking you need privacy and you wanna feel like if you're gonna be living in the main house, you want to be not feeling like you've got another house in your backyard.

[00:25:07] Veronica: You wanna sort of feel like you've got a little bit of [00:25:10] privacy and your own. You know, your own designated area. And likewise, the people living in the granny flat would wanna feel like they weren't just wedged up against the side fence and they've got [00:25:20] no outdoor space. They're sharing the driveway to get to, you know, to get access.

[00:25:23] Veronica: so these are sorts of things that, like you said, from a design point, point of view, I would imagine people potentially not [00:25:30] even thinking about, but they would need to be, if they want to end up with a product that enhances the value of their home.

[00:25:35] Wally: honestly, yeah, that you, I think you've nailed it. That's probably one of the biggest factors, [00:25:40] and we are always having our, our design team are always having those discussions with. Lines and they'll say, okay, what side of the property, for example, do you want your tenants to come to? Walk down?

[00:25:48] Wally: Is it left or the right? And that [00:25:50] type of thing. Say, okay, so if that's the case, you wanna come down the right hand side, that's great. But you've also got, you know, where's your living room in your house? You know, they'll sits on the right wall. Consider maybe putting it on the other side. 'cause they're gonna walk past your, you [00:26:00] living room every single day.

[00:26:01] Wally: So yeah, fencing comes into play. Landscaping, um, good design. And then, yeah, just use of space, I think. Um. Clever space is, is, again, I'll come back to that a bit, but [00:26:10] it is important if you've got two good sized bedrooms. That seems, honestly, I I say 90% of the projects we do, if not even more, are all two bedrooms.

[00:26:17] Wally: That seems to be a good mix of living space [00:26:20] and bedrooms and bathroom and kitchen and, it's great. We've done a lot of three bedrooms, but again, you've got 60 square minutes to play with. So when you are adding a third bedroom, you're taking that space away from somewhere else. So [00:26:30] all of a sudden you've got three small bedrooms and maybe a small living room. Well, that's not really practical. If you've got more bedrooms, pretend you've got more people, but you've got less living space. It's sort of a, that two bedroom I find is a great [00:26:40] balance. It gives you up space, so that that's really, really important. And even though you're not living there, even if you're trying to rent it out, your occupants need to be comfortable and able to live in there.

[00:26:49] Wally: It's still a granny flood, but it's still [00:26:50] a house at the end of the day, so.

[00:26:51] Veronica: I think 60 square meters is a bit tight for, a generous two bedroom. you know, you've got, like you say, your people gotta be comfortable living there. It's gotta be [00:27:00] appropriate scale and size. I mean, do people try to squeeze in mezzanine bedrooms and things like that? Is it, is, are there height limits?

[00:27:06] Veronica: And where does the 60 square meters come from? Is that basically state government mandated.

[00:27:09] Wally: [00:27:10] It is state government.

[00:27:11] Wally: Yeah, correct.

[00:27:11] Veronica: And what about other states? Sorry, I'm throwing questions at you here, but I'm, curious to know what other, we've got listeners across the country, so a lot of these. Principles we're talking about [00:27:20] apply. It doesn't matter where you are, but do you know much about the regulations in other states?

[00:27:24] Wally: A, a bit. So we're, I'm doing a bit of research on Melbourne at the moment ' cause we do get a lot of inquiries in Melbourne. I do [00:27:30] know you can do 60 square meters there as well. But in, a CT you can actually do 90 square meters. different planning. Rules and ways of getting things approved. Like don't necessarily have like a CD, C [00:27:40] approved approach like we have here, but you can get 90 square meters and that extra 30 square meters, another 50% of the size, it's huge. It, it,

[00:27:47] Veronica: That's significant.

[00:27:47] Wally: but yeah, you talk about hide before, so Yeah, like there's [00:27:50] a, under CDC, you can actually go up to 8.5 meters, but. There's like a formula you use. So if you, the further you are to, the closer you are to the back fence, the lower it's gonna be as you move [00:28:00] further away from the side and back fences where you can go higher and higher.

[00:28:02] Wally: And that's a, that's to prevent or to make sure there's no privacy issues and so on. So based on that, you can actually do a two story granny flat [00:28:10] if you've got at least eight meters off your back fence. You two and a half to three meters of your side fences. So it's not gonna be suitable in all residential areas, but if you've got a large block of land, you can actually build a two story C [00:28:20] granny flat. So yeah, we've done quite a few with mezzanines. they didn't quite go to the full two story. They meant maybe one and a half meters. pardon me, pardon me, one and a half stories. so that is common, is common. Trying to maximize [00:28:30] that space rather than just having a roof void, they've turned that into a little, Space where you could put a bed in or a mattress and sleep. Funnily enough, we've had cases where councils 'cause they were flood effect that [00:28:40] have actually asked for a mezzanine to be built. So in the case of there, if it is ever any flooding, they've got like a ref they call a refuge space. We can climb up into it and just sit there [00:28:50] to the water levels subside so

[00:28:51] Veronica: that astounds me, that they'll let you build a granny flat in a flood zone.

[00:28:54] Wally: well. Okay, so the best way to explain that is if there are different categories of flooding. The higher the [00:29:00] category, the less likely they're going to allow you. But they also look at things like, without getting too technical where the flood is. So your block might be flood effect, the bigger street might be. So they'll look at that and say, okay, well if there's ever a [00:29:10] flood in the street, these guys are gonna be stuck here for a while maybe. and or if it just touches through their land, well then we wanna make sure they're safe as well. So, that's come across now. I've done [00:29:20] that three times and now all the northern beaches. whether they specifically asked for that, and that was sort of a low to, pardon me, a medium to a higher risk category. the building itself was over the flood [00:29:30] heights, but they wanted to be overly precautious or overly cautious and ask for a measure need to be built.

[00:29:35] CB: obviously there would've been a boom with COVID just for you with the [00:29:40] investors, borrower, two 3%. get a yield of four, five, or just a margin to mate, you would've seen people, at home, just there's a renovation boom. Right. and people needed an office [00:29:50] and needed more space and, weren't going on holidays, et cetera.

[00:29:52] CB: But do you find, have you found that investors have died off with interest rates going up dramatically. because if you're paying like, six plus percent [00:30:00] on your, 200 grand to do your granny flat. and you get your extra $400 a week or 500 bucks a week rent, like, you know, and then you pay tax on that.

[00:30:08] CB: And it's when interest rate's [00:30:10] quite low and that's quite a decent amount to make. Or have you found that just through this whole process, that even though rates have gone up, you've still found a lot of investors see [00:30:20] money in it, even though bill prices have gone up and rates have gone up. Just 'cause rents have gone up and there's a rental crisis. There's. It's still made the, the numbers stack up.

[00:30:29] Wally: after [00:30:30] COVID, or even during COVID, you're, you're spot on. I think there mo more people working from home realize what they need done on their property, whether it's improvement or they need more space or whatever. but even, even [00:30:40] so that, no, I honestly think there's been a larger number of investors now, and it's because again, they might already own an investment property, so rather than going out buying another property, they'll [00:30:50] just. Double the rental income on their, on their current property. And when you look at the returns on a 200,000 investment, it's significant. And I'll give you some examples of, I keep going back to Northern beaches. That's to [00:31:00] me where we've done a lot of work and I found, the rents are incredible. We, we've done a few in around the coco area where the grain flats getting eight 50 or $900 a week. In the front house, it [00:31:10] might be getting about $1,200 a week. Now they would've spent, I don't know the exact number, but I'm sure they've spent a lot of money my house in, but they've only had to spend another 250 to 300,000 on the granny flat. The rental, the return on that Granny flat [00:31:20] investment, 300,000 is way higher than what they would've spent to get that $1,200 a week from the main house. From a numbers perspective, it still adds up. and a lot of more people are starting to see [00:31:30] that. So we try to hold seminars and educate people about things like that because you know that not, it's not only grannys living in there, people are renting them out or downsizing or upgrading, whatever it might be.

[00:31:39] Wally: [00:31:40] and the numbers just add up.

[00:31:41] CB: I think this is where sometimes people getting caught out with the Airbnb and I think Granny Flats are sort of, you know, you've got your house, you know, you've got a backyard, you don't really use it that much, [00:31:50] you don't need it. You gotta keep living.

[00:31:51] CB: There you go. Well, you know, I could put a granny flat on there. I don't mind privacy changes or it's gonna affect me. We can design it quite nicely. But they go and they build it and they [00:32:00] rent it out and yeah, they make a bit of money because like you say, it's 850 a week rent. but then it also affects their capital gains tax on their home, right?

[00:32:06] CB: Because you're now got an income on your home and [00:32:10] you know, then you're gonna pay, you know, some capital gain tax. Well, you would've got full tax free growth on your home. Like, do you think it, you know, people even think about these things or they're even aware of it, and you know, there, [00:32:20] there's dangers there if you haven't thought about that.

[00:32:22] Wally: I think a lot of property investors do think about that because they're usually not all, but usually a bit more. Savvy, they know about, you know, [00:32:30] capital gains and all that type of stuff. So they're the ones that will do their homework and research and come to us saying, I know I'm going to be, you know, this is no longer a primary place of, well it's still a primary place of residence, [00:32:40] but there's gonna be capital gains now applied to this. Or others would be saying it's an investment property. I'm paying land tax but as a property owner, yeah, it's something you do have to think about. 'cause there's a percentage of that property which now gets [00:32:50] attributed towards capital gains. again, we'll always tell people, get advice on that. Uh, it doesn't affect your land rates though, if that ever, I get asked that a lot. So your mates don't go up, they'll go up, [00:33:00] sorry. They'll go up if you ask for more bins because you might be a second set of bins, but that's about, it just doesn't, you know, look at the value of the property being more now and therefore you're paying higher rates.

[00:33:08] Wally: it's a good one, but, um.

[00:33:09] CB: Bins are [00:33:10] pretty cheap though.

[00:33:10] Veronica: It's the unimproved land value, isn't it? I mean, that's what you're paying rates based on and also you're paying land tax based on, but I think that it is an interesting one for [00:33:20] owner occupies to sort of consider. Tax implications on their own home. 'cause they'd have to pay tax on the income as well if they're living in the front house or if they're living in the back house.

[00:33:29] Veronica: But [00:33:30] most of your clients sort of investors or do you have people that are actually building them for their family to live in? And if that's the case, have you come across situations where you've had, say, an elderly parent part [00:33:40] funding it, or you've got a sort of a kid, you know, an adult child part funding it and which direction do you point them in to make sure they set things up correctly?

[00:33:48] Wally: all those cases we pretty much [00:33:50] had, I think what I find for the younger ones, they probably struggle the most to get a, say the mom and dad might own the property, for example. and mom and dad are older. They can't take out a loan anymore, so [00:34:00] for the child to come take out a loan and own the property, that could, there are some implications and, issues to look at there.

[00:34:06] Wally: But again, um, you know, they, again, they'll, they'll be speaking to a mortgage broker to the bank [00:34:10] and trying to figure something out. I've seen cases where the parents have put the kids on the title just so that, you know, obviously that means you're paying a bit of a stamp duty. But, by having them on the title, it means they can now borrow money [00:34:20] on the property. Or somehow they find out the Maac a loan and they'll have an agreement between the landowners and, you know, the kids who are building and lending them the money or [00:34:30] whatever. So, yeah, honestly, we've seen quite a few different cases. we tend not to get involved too much in the financing, but our salespeople do.

[00:34:37] Wally: I don't like to call 'em salespeople, but the, who they speak to would often say, [00:34:40] Hey, just a few things you might wanna think about. How are you gonna fund this? Not 'cause we are concerned, but just have a think about how you get your finances because if you don't own the block, you might not be able to get the [00:34:50] funds and, and things like that.

[00:34:51] Wally: So, I think it's important to have a good mortgage broker or solicitor and, and those types of people on your team because those things up. And accountants I should say as well. ' cause yeah, there are [00:35:00] things you gotta consider. I mean, we do work for people with who own the property, a self-managed super fund. That itself is a, a rule. Very different language. Um,but yeah, that's a mind. Exactly right. [00:35:10] So there are lots of implications with that as well, because you often can't borrow to do that. But we get a lot of clients who will fight themselves. so don't have to take out a loan and yeah, so many [00:35:20] different, uh, scenarios.

[00:35:21] Veronica: who's advising them on that in the first place? you know, have they come to you

[00:35:24] CB: Steal advice.

[00:35:26] Veronica: financial advisor is, um. giving them that advice or is it [00:35:30] that they bought the property through a, buyer's agent for argument's sake? You sold them on the idea of putting a granny flat at the back.

[00:35:36] Veronica: I mean, typically, where will they get the idea if they bought that property [00:35:40] in a self-managed super fund?

[00:35:41] Wally: The question we get asked, Hey, am I own my property and my stock measure? Can I build a granny flat? And I say, look, you can, but before we go down that rabbit hole, just check, the [00:35:50] requirements. Um,I'm not a sales person.

[00:35:51] Wally: I don't wanna just take your money and start the project at, that's not me. I'd rather people do their homework. They come to us and say, look, I, I've found this, is this to [00:36:00] correct. again, I won't give advice, but I say, look, this is where I know go get the right advice. but like, like I said, 'cause we've done a few self-managed super funds.

[00:36:07] Wally: Now I do know that, you know, you can't always borrow [00:36:10] money to improve the property. So I'd say, look, unless you're funding this yourself, this might be an issue for, you may not be able to build it.

[00:36:16] CB: I mean, it does really, frustrate me. Just going back to that capital gain [00:36:20] taxo thing, I think it, we in your go be petitioning pretty hardly for because, you know, you've got a rental crisis, right? And everyone's got, you know, backyards, a lot of older age, [00:36:30] 60 seventies, you know, and. if they could convert that to a granny flat, it's, and they get to keep living in the property. it makes sense. Right? And then they're gonna pay tax on it affects their pension and [00:36:40] fix their capital gains tax and. It's kind of like Scott Keck at, um, charter Keck a few years ago said, oh, if you rent out your bedrooms, you shouldn't be paying tax on it.

[00:36:47] CB: Right? Like, because we've got a rental crisis, we need to, and I [00:36:50] think Granny Fire is very a prime example as well. Like we should be able to, you know, really encourage, people to do it without these major tax consequences that they just have to deal with.

[00:36:59] Wally: you're [00:37:00] right. I mean, there is a rental. There is a massive shortage of housing at the moment. Was the reason why this was introduced back in 2009 to try to, alleviate that problem or provide more housing. But like, there's [00:37:10] other things as well, which, almost contradict that because one thing probably haven't touched on are council contribution fees. So as soon as the Green Flat's approved, whether it's a CDC or da. Most councils [00:37:20] put their hands out and ask for a contribution. A developer contributes to me. and depending on which council you're in, some of them are reasonable. It might be 1% of the, of the bill price. It's not, not a, even if it's 20,000 on price, it's [00:37:30] $2,000.

[00:37:30] Wally: Not too bad. Some councils it's $20,000 plus and more, and I don't understand that. I mean, that's significant amount of MO as a contribution [00:37:40] when they should be trying to encourage people to build And whatnot. So you know that that's a big one. So that's something we do advise people about as well, to check with their local council, find out what the contribution fee is, because that's often a [00:37:50] surprise to some people.

[00:37:50] Wally: Getting your plans approved and ready to start building is one thing, but before you start building, you gotta be able to fund that extra $20,000

[00:37:57] Veronica: Wally, do you have any examples, and I'm sure you [00:38:00] do, of some property dumbos for us. So I imagine there's a number of mistakes that people could be making in the granny flat space.

[00:38:06] Wally: I think the one common thing that I see a lot is. People come to [00:38:10] us, say, I've looked, I've gone through 15 properties, whatever, this is the right one. And the first thing we do look at the contract and say, did you know there's an easement in in the backyard and you can't build?

[00:38:19] Wally: So [00:38:20] a lot of people just wanna buy a block of land 'cause it's cheap. And they wanna build a grain flame, they wanna get their rental return. That's great if you can. Fantastic. But often I'll say when it's really cheap, there's probably a reason for that. [00:38:30] There's something hidden. So I, I do a lot of those.

[00:38:31] Wally: So they, gone out, they've put their deposit down and come to us and then realize they can't even build.

[00:38:35] Wally: Or it's a heritage.

[00:38:37] Veronica: Lisa come to you before they've actually, gone and [00:38:40] entered into

[00:38:40] Wally: I wish they would.

[00:38:41] Veronica: you

[00:38:42] Wally: I wish they would, but some of

[00:38:43] Veronica: you've

[00:38:44] Wally: don't.

[00:38:44] Veronica: that's a real dumbo. Yeah.

[00:38:47] Wally: that's a, but one of the, one of the [00:38:50] classics for me is, it must been about five years ago or so, one of our clients was a builder. Being a builder, he knew everything. So everything that we did, he wanted to challenge us on and that's fine.

[00:38:59] Wally: I'm [00:39:00] got nothing to hide. So whatever questions he asked, we had answers for, you know, everything we do was to standard. So I never was concerned about that. But the funniest was when, and I and I, so I'm [00:39:10] office space these days. I do a lot more work in the office and whatnot, but for some reason I've been out to that site quite a few times.

[00:39:15] Wally: 'cause you challenged people. I was, you know, the one to go out there and try to res resolve [00:39:20] it, what happened? But I remember this one very, very clearly 'cause we did a frame inspection with the client, walked through everything was okay. A few days later, the certifier went out there to do a frame inspection.

[00:39:29] Wally: And I [00:39:30] remember him calling me directly and saying, you guys have really stuffed bugger this one up. It's, there's windows and place they shouldn't be. And there's, you know, the plan show has two bedrooms, only one bedroom. I was like, [00:39:40] n you're on the right, you're on the wrong property. This can't be right.

[00:39:42] Wally: And it's, you know, show me photos. That's not our project. He goes, no, it is. So anyway, went back out there and the owner had gone back in after [00:39:50] we'd done our framing and created a few openings windows. He'd knocked out a wall to make one of the bedrooms bigger and moved the bathroom wall over. like it just caused [00:40:00] that many problems. We had to put the project on hold. it cost him so much money more. And he was like, no, but I'm a builder. I know the certifi I should at this stuff. And like that's just one of those cases where I think if people think they know [00:40:10] everything and just leave to the experts. I've had other cases where the owner went and moved the surveyors pegs 'cause he didn't think that the pegs were in the right location.

[00:40:18] Veronica: Oh [00:40:20] God.

[00:40:20] Wally: His backyard where he got home from work and he saw pegs and he said, that's not where it's going. And he's pulled them out and I said, I've gotta get a survey back out here.

[00:40:27] Wally: He's gonna charge you. He goes, that's not where they go. He said, that's not where the [00:40:30] building's going. That's just a peg for gonna know where to run his string lines. Just let us do our jobs with the experts. yeah, we've had, a lot of clients say they wanna save most, they wanna do their own, bring [00:40:40] in their own trades and things like that. Of that, you know, we, we have a process to make sure that obviously they're licensed and insured and and whatnot, and yeah, we just see [00:40:50] lots of substandard work and then it becomes our problem. so yeah, I've seen it all. I mean, every, everyone wants, everyone thinks they can. They're an expert these days.

[00:40:57] Wally: And, so yeah, they're some of the most, [00:41:00] not most common, but that we come across though. We've come across those in the past.

[00:41:03] Veronica: What a classic. All I can think of is, you've spoken a number of times about drainage easements and, you know, when I think drainage easements, [00:41:10] I often think about sewer diagram and where the sewer line runs underneath, the house. And in New South Wales, that's a standard. Document that goes into the contractor sale, I'd say it's a prescribed document in, [00:41:20] Victoria, you're gonna get one. But in Queensland, even though recent year, uh, in August last year, legislation came in to increase vendor disclosure. So vendors have to disclose a whole bunch of [00:41:30] stuff still. As not part of that package of, of vendor documents that need to be disclosed to buyers.

[00:41:35] Veronica: There's no drainage diagram in there. So you could still buy a property in [00:41:40] Queensland thinking that you can pack, put a granny flat or a pool or anything else that you might be wanting to put out in your backyard and settle on that property. Go unconditional. not even realize. That you cannot [00:41:50] do what you are hoping that you're gonna be able to do to it.

[00:41:52] Veronica: So, you know, when you said that about, the buyer that brings a contract to you, at least you can find out that information in the contract. But there's a lot of people buying [00:42:00] properties in, some jurisdictions without that information and really critical information that they would need to know before deciding that gonna be their investment strategy or their, family home [00:42:10] strategy.

[00:42:10] Wally: Yeah, absolutely. And honestly we do see a lot of that. And if you're buying a property, it's easy 'cause that information's available through the contract. If you've owned it for many years and you don't have that copy of that contract, [00:42:20] we'll often tell people, I need you to purchase a sew diagram. A title would be. Ep,an 10.7 planning certificate just so that we can, from a desktop perspective, initially [00:42:30] look at it and say, okay, these are some planning restrictions, or there is a sort rank three block, or things like that. At least give us some advice on that before we start talking about permissibility.

[00:42:39] Wally: Whether we can [00:42:40] build there. A sewage is not as bad as as drainage, like with stormwater, at least with sewage, there are a process where you can encase the sewer build on top of it if it's an actual drainage easement [00:42:50] that you cannot build on top of.

[00:42:51] Veronica: A on my other podcast, um, your first Home Buyer Guide, we often do, whole Dumbo episodes, which is really, it's usually on a story we found in the news and we [00:43:00] deconstruct as to if these people had known these things before they bought the property, they could have avoided a lot of heartache and a lot of.

[00:43:06] Veronica: A lot of money being wasted. And one of them was a property, I think it was in [00:43:10] Epping. These people had bought this property and had a drainage easement across the backyard. So they actually bought it with a house on it. And they could have renovated the house. They could have lived in the house, but [00:43:20] instead they got gung ho and decided to demolish that house before they even got approval to build another one.

[00:43:25] Veronica: And then because they then discovered there was a drainage easement, they weren't able to build anything. On the block. [00:43:30] So all this stuff was all discoverable before they bought. It was actually in the contract. It's not even like they had to ask that was there. but so people do some pretty crazy [00:43:40] stuff.

[00:43:40] Veronica: Wally, that's been a very informative chat. it's been good to understand some more of the things to be thinking about if you are thinking about putting a granny flat in, that's for [00:43:50] sure. and Chris, are you thinking about doing it at your place?

[00:43:52] CB: I do need more space though for grandparents and, you know, all that sort of stuff when they visit. So, you know, there's a massive need of it in, [00:44:00] society and, well, I've, I've seen clients do it really well and I've seen clients come to us when they're put granny flats on places and I think, hang on a sec, you should have just left it as grass. You're probably not gonna get. [00:44:10] A lot of people aren't in that market, gonna want to grand flat, and you basically just limited your bipolar dramatically. but then I remember this one guy up the central coast. He's, he's pretty [00:44:20] switched on his client and, you had a corner block, you know, he had two access, he got it all through council.

[00:44:25] CB: you know, he had a huge amount, way more than the cost of, you know, a [00:44:30] granny flat. and you know, so I've seen it also go extremely well as well. Thanks so.

[00:44:34] Wally: Absolute pleasure. Thank you.

[00:44:36] Veronica Morgan: If you have a question that you'd like us to answer in an upcoming q and a [00:44:40] episode, you can send us a voicemail or written question via the website. The elephant in the room.com au. Or you can email us directly at questions at [00:44:50] the elephant in the room.com

[00:44:52] Veronica Morgan: au.

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