Pete [00:00:30]:

Welcome back to not a straight line with me, Pete Daly-Dickson. This is the show that explores the non linear journeys of artists and entrepreneurs to inspire you as you zigzag through your own non straight line life. And this week, I'm joined by my good friend and fellow entrepreneur, Avon Collis. With an efficiency mindset toned early in customer service, Avon quickly outgrew military service and found himself working as a business owner in Darwin, Australia. Now, you wouldn't necessarily think that expertise in business, process, refinement, efficiency, workflows, automation, sops will arise from running a humble cafe. And yet Avon is here today, running what I have no doubt will be a globally recognized professional services and consulting firm, already in multiple seven figures, only seven years after starting his business. Now, all this is important to remember when I say that Avon is not only hugely accomplished, but also an incredible force for good in the world. Amazing husband, father, loyal friend, despite the tumbles and obstacles and zigs and zags he's faced on the way.

Pete [00:01:46]:

I've known Avon for five or six years and I'm just so thankful that his non straight line journey crossed paths with mine all those years ago. I enjoyed this conversation so much. It was deep, it was personal, it was vulnerable. And I'm sure that if you have ears to listen, you will get some incredible golden nuggets out of this conversation. Avon Collis, welcome to not a straight line to your not a straight line. Feel a bit like, do you have that? We had a program in. Maybe we still do. I don't watch.

Pete [00:02:25]:

This is your life? Yeah.

Avon [00:02:27]:

Do you have that? Ages ago. Yeah, I remember it, but, yeah, I think I watched one or two. It's very autobiographical.

Pete [00:02:35]:

It just sounded a bit. A bit like that. Yeah. So, anyway, it's great to have you. It's great to have carved out some time to have a wonder through your non straight line journey through life. How long have we known each other?

Avon [00:02:53]:

I would say around 2018, 2019, probably when we started talking, or they've not.

Pete [00:03:02]:

Done before, because reflection takes time and the entrepreneurial world and the artistic world, you know, there's always something to do. The wheels are always turning and stuff, so we're just going to slow down and just, as I say, just take a meandering journey through where you've got to and where you started. So when you think about that journey, looking back, are there any moments where, on reflection, you see as being either particularly pivotal or where there was a significant amount of pressure, more pressure than normal on you, that resulted in a change of direction.

Avon [00:03:41]:

There's been heaps. Diamonds are made under pressure. So if there's pressure filled moments, I guess what phase in history you thinking? More professional world or personal?

Pete [00:03:53]:

But this is a more. I mean, it's difficult to, particularly as entrepreneurs, I know it is difficult to separate the personal and the professional world. This journey kind of veers more towards the personal, because it's often the personal stories of a business owner which don't get shared, and those are the stories which help engender trust in, in partners and clients.

Avon [00:04:20]:

So I'd say if I think about my business life, I can think of probably three quite large moments, and I know you've asked for one, but I said, there's a lot, so why don't we go hard and fast and we'll knock them out? So when I left the army, so I transitioned out of the military, and I thought, well, what can I do? Couldn't really get a job very easily.

Pete [00:04:44]:

Okay, right, so right there, you started from when I transitioned out of the army. So right away the storyteller in me is thinking, okay, well, what was the journey to the army when you were at school? Was it always your intention to join the army?

Avon [00:04:59]:

No, I think early on, yeah, probably at school. And initially I joined army reserves, and I did that whilst I was midway through year ten. And then I had to go to basic training. So I did join as soon, as soon as I was allowed to. Like 16 or nine months. Yeah, I kind of wanted to be somewhere else, so I liked the army, but at the same time, I didn't want to, like, ruin my future prospects, so I wanted to finish year twelve.

Pete [00:05:24]:

When you say you wanted to be somewhere else, what do you mean? What do you mean by that?

Avon [00:05:27]:

It's just, I guess home wasn't the best place to be, so I decided that I would go and train and do whatever. And I remember I was running laps around the school level each day, trying to get the fitness up to pass the fitness test, and then I was due to go off to basic training. And I think about five days before I was due to go, I fractured one of my. I think it was a tibia, one of the leg bones, lower leg bones.

Pete [00:05:55]:

Okay.

Avon [00:05:56]:

So I'd done all my training, I was getting pretty fit and then snapped it, and then I was in a cast for like, five weeks. And then as soon as that came off, I was running the oval again, hobbling because it was a little bit uncomfortable, got my fitness up, and then, because then I was on that x course, but I'd done that course partway through the school term, so I'd actually missed quite a lot of school. And so I did, you know, it's 45 days basic training. You do all the fitness stuff, you know, bayonet fighting, shooting, obstacle courses, you know, patrolling, all that sort of stuff. And then I went back to school and then I had to majorly catch up. A lot of the times when I was trying to do half decent, I wasn't great at school, but I certainly give it a go. I tried to do probably more subjects than most people would do, so it was probably a bit more quantity rather than quality. Some of those were like a trade subject.

Avon [00:06:47]:

And so I had to go to another school. But to get there I had to ride my bike. Well, I had to ride my bike six k's to school every day. But then to get to this trade college thing, I then had to ride to another bus stop like two kilometres away. Then, sorry, no, leave my bike at school, walk to the bus stop, take the bus to the trade college, then come back at like six or 07:00 at night, middle of winter in Victoria. I know you're English and it's a lot colder there, but it was cold for me.

Pete [00:07:14]:

It's how, it's how it feels that matters everyone.

Avon [00:07:17]:

Exactly. Yeah. Then walk back to school, then get my bike, then ride six K's home and then I get home at like 08:00 at night. So I did that two days a week and then plus doing all my year eleven year twelve subjects. But anyway, I made it up and, and then as soon as I finished year twelve I transferred to regular army. And I know that I got a part time job, but within about four months I was off.

Pete [00:07:40]:

I mean, I just. In terms of reflection, I've only known the professional side of you. I'm aware that, you know, part of your, your professional story is that you are a veteran. So I knew that. But what I know about you now, I can see that work ethic and doing whatever it takes and setting big goals, like you said about doing more subjects than most. That was there even then in the 16 year old Avon. Is that something that's always been there or did it come just from a really strong desire to not be where you were in terms of your home home situation?

Avon [00:08:23]:

Um, I mean, it makes it sound worse than it was. I. I think it was just that, uh, you know, there's some, some strangeness. My parents were religious. One, I think my mother had a mental breakdown and pretended she was possessed. That I kind of messed with me a bit and then I wanted to get out of there. And then, um. Yeah, I'd say I was, wasn't I growing up around work? Like, my dad run a business and I was, you know, stripping engines at the age of five and I built my first one at 13 and, you know, I was around work late at night because, you know, the business had to keep running or they had to do something.

Avon [00:08:58]:

And then we don't go off to, like, car shows and I'm squished in the back with a thousand car parts and then driving halfway across Australia. I don't know, I just grew up around it. So, you know, sort of work was hard work. I mean, I was definitely. I was moving cars, parts, and, like, I remember carrying really heavy steel beams and all that sort of stuff. So, I mean, there was rest as well. It was not like complete slave labor or anything, but there was a child labor. No, I guess there was definitely an element to it, for sure, but, yeah, I mean, to the point where, like in vce victorian certificate of education, that's like year eleven and twelve.

Avon [00:09:35]:

You're like two subject, two years. You need before to go to university.

Pete [00:09:39]:

Yeah. Like a levels kind of thing.

Avon [00:09:41]:

Yeah. Yeah. So we had a white shirt that's part of the school uniform, but mine would always be gray because I'd like, in the mornings I'd have to go and, like, move engines and gearboxes before school and then I'd go home with, like, or go to school with like, breezy hands and I, like, I'd wash them. But you can never quite get it out. Like, it's all under the nails and you get teased a little bit for that sort of thing. And then, you know, you, because you've been riding six ks, you don't smell the greatest when you get there, no matter what you do. And I same back the other way, unloading stuff in the afternoons. So, yeah, I mean, I wanted to not be a mechanic or not inherit.

Pete [00:10:16]:

The family business, but by the same token, you've not been a stranger to hard work from a, from an early age.

Avon [00:10:22]:

Oh, no, pretty much. No, I have not.

Pete [00:10:25]:

So you, you did reserves, you did the basic training, you did your victorian equivalent of a levels. Was it army straight after that?

Avon [00:10:34]:

Uh, yeah, I got a part time job, worked in a re. Uh, it was called Dick Smith. They've gone baroque now. Uh, no, it was Dick Smith and then Tandy and I worked for a short while, so in sales, got the highest warranty sales in all of Victoria the state. And then I. What is it? Yeah. So I then went like five months later, I went to regular army. And then I, because I just modified the course.

Avon [00:10:58]:

I had to do basic training again. So I went through all the, the basic bananas, b's of, you know, how to march, how to dress, how to iron, everyone's yelling and everyone's like, yeah, it's stupid stuff. Yeah.

Pete [00:11:10]:

Without the broken leg, hopefully.

Avon [00:11:12]:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, the first time it had healed, but I was only just good enough to go. But then the second time, yeah, it was, it was a lot easier.

Pete [00:11:21]:

Peace. Piss. Yeah. You just mentioned something there almost in passing, and I. Part of my job in these conversations is kind of just to catch hold of those passing comments and look into them a bit more. You said you got the highest warranty sales in the whole of the state. That was in sales. Up to this point.

Pete [00:11:42]:

You've not really talked about anything that kind of indicates that you had that ability. Did that surprise you?

Avon [00:11:49]:

It was a shock.

Pete [00:11:50]:

What did you do? Obviously, I mean, you must have done it innately because you didn't have any training. So what was it in you that helped you get to that result?

Avon [00:11:58]:

I don't know. I just found it to be. I found ways to be personable in a very short time, to not be pushy and salesy. And ironically, it was in one of the lowest socioeconomic areas. And so I would just, you know, I did my thing of offering, hey, would you like to get the extended warranty on that? And then sometimes they'd say, oh, no, not really. I said, well, you know, if it breaks, you can come in and we can do this and we could do that. Yeah, I actually had a pretty good hit rate. But because this is the downside, right? Being in a low socioeconomic area, there's times I really didn't want to sell because I'd have people coming in and they had this thing called the baby bonus.

Avon [00:12:36]:

And of course you'd have these. I had this young kid, he must have knocked up some girl at like 1415 or whatever, and he's walking in going, oh, I want to get the latest ipod. I'm like, okay. He's like, yeah, I've just got the baby bonus. That is not what that money is for. Get out of the shop. Go and buy nappies and clothes and things that you're actually going to need. So it was really was one of the smallest shops.

Avon [00:13:00]:

And there was some interesting characters that walked in, people wanting security cameras, but they're clearly, that's for their drug house, not for personal safety or security. So I don't really have anything else to say on that. I don't know why I was good at it. Maybe, I think what it was, as I patented interrupt. So I look at someone, there's one girl coming, and she's got a. She's like, oh, the flip phone. It snapped. And I looked at her like, do you want a tissue? And she just expected me to be this salesperson and.

Avon [00:13:28]:

And something that was supposed to be behaved in a certain way. And because I did that, that she came back the other day, a day later, brought two or three friends, and they all bought something. So, and again, that conversation happened. So it's about getting to. Getting past the blank wall of sameness and nothingness and get to the real conversation. Kind of like what you're doing here.

Pete [00:13:49]:

Again, reflecting on how I've known you, how you've shown up over the last five years. It seems to me that there's a lot that you learned then at such a young age that you just naturally and innately using your business life now, possibly, yeah.

Avon [00:14:05]:

I would, I would consider, would have considered myself at that time to be quite socially awkward and felt like a little bit disconnected from everything. So I guess, you know. Cause I kind of out in the back doing all the work. I didn't really get the same social life as everybody else. We're in a rural area, cut away from everybody else. I mean, we initially grew up in Melbourne, in the city, and then moved out to rural area. And so pretty much all my friend network was gone, and I had to just sort of plug away.

Pete [00:14:35]:

How old were you that when you, when you moved?

Avon [00:14:38]:

13.

Pete [00:14:39]:

That's quite a formative. I mean, it's formative in the sense that that's when you're starting to create your peer groups and get your sense of identity from peers around you. So that was kind of taken away.

Avon [00:14:49]:

Yeah, well, I mean, I've always felt like I have a very internal locus of control, if you will. So, master of my own destiny, I'm on my own. If I don't do it myself, it's not going to happen. So I didn't really feel like I had anyone to rely on. So I feel like. And still now, I just think, got a couple of sayings where you can't bank on good intentions because everybody says, yes, yes. Smiles and nods, and then nothing happens. And then usually I find if someone says, yeah, we should do something, I'm like, go ten steps ahead, turn around, and they're not following me.

Avon [00:15:19]:

So you just get used to that and you just go, well, if I'm going to do it, I'm going to do it, but if I'm not, I'm just going to walk. Just completely not waste time on it.

Pete [00:15:29]:

Yeah, it's a great attitude. So, I mean, these podcast conversations for not a straight line are kind of like at a macro level and a micro level. They're also not a straight line. So we're going forwards and backwards all the time, like all great stories. So we're back. Now, you've done basic training again for the second time and obviously breeze through that because you'd already done it. What's it like when you join the army full time? I mean, I've not experienced that. I imagine the person listening to this might well have been in the army, but I guess for many others it's completely alien.

Pete [00:16:08]:

All we know about it is what we see in films and television. Is it like that? What's it like joining the army as an 18 year old? Was it how old you were?

Avon [00:16:17]:

Yeah. Well, it's, I guess you go after basic training, you have one suitcase with, they give you a pack list, then you get on the bus and then they take you to the basic training and where you are is what your life is. So once you get issued all your extra equipment, then you've got a trunk and your one suitcase that you had plus one or two extra bags of stuff, your backpack or whatever, and then that all gets shipped pretty much in a container with everybody else's stuff to your posting. I know. Then you go to the, I went to the school of infantry. So you go to your called, Iet's initial employment training. So everybody does basic, they do the same, and then afterwards they then go to a specific industry or core training. So I went to the school of infantry and then, you know, once you're out of basic, it's a different, like, it's a little bit more relaxed because they kind of treat you more like, yeah, you know, the basics.

Avon [00:17:08]:

Now, you're, you've still got your strictness and regimental behaviors, but there's, you know, like in your own room, you can now pin up pictures on the wall or you can have, you know, your laptop out. Like, you've got to have your secured items like this. Just there's rules, but there's flexibility within those rules. You've still got to have your bed made and your brass polished and everything in inspection order, but then you get your own little corner to do something with. And then when you go out of that, you go onto barracks and it's same. But again, you get more personal flexibility. Now you can zoosh up the bed and do whatever you like on that. You can have a couch, you can have your personal stuff, but when they come through for inspection, everything is completely clean.

Avon [00:17:48]:

You know, your toilet's clean. That's part of, like, discipline, good health, whatever. Your uniforms are ironed.

Pete [00:17:54]:

So even when you're living in. Even when you're living in barracks, like barracks accommodation, you still get your accommodation is inspected.

Avon [00:17:59]:

Yeah, but there's tricks, right? So I had a queen bed with a big doona and, like, heaps of cushions. And they walk in the first thing, they're like, ah, cool bed. And then they don't look at anything else. Or I had a carpet and then, like, someone. Because they're all tile, but I had this big carpet, that's what the bed sat on. And then anyway, so I'm standing on the edge of this carpet and this guy's a sniper. And he looks at me, he's like, if I look under that carpet, is it clean? I look him dead in the eye. I'm like, yep.

Avon [00:18:28]:

And he's like, that's confidence. I'm not going to check. And then the other thing, the other trick is have a photo of, you know, pin up girl or something on the. On the pin board and then that distracts them or whatever. Some guys are like, in the age of computers, they got the desktop background and then they photoshop the platoon commander and the sergeant together or something like that. Just has it on the, on the rotating background, all these sorts of stupid tricks. Just.

Pete [00:18:55]:

I love that.

Avon [00:18:56]:

Just to get out of it. And the other one is get an air freshener because if they walk in, if it smells good, all they want to do is make sure at that point, all they want to do is make sure you're not living like a pig and that there's some level of discipline. So, yeah, cool.

Pete [00:19:09]:

So you're just talking about the different stages. You're at barracks and then you're deployed and off you go.

Avon [00:19:18]:

Yeah, well, I mean, there's like training exercise for deployments. It's a rotation, depending on what unit and what's going on in the world at that time. Of course, you're really keen to go on places. And the first thing I did was I was there for four days before I went on an exercise in Koltana, which is the desert training area in the south of Australia. I was there for about a month and a half, two months or whatever, and then heaps of other exercises in between. Then not long after I went to East Timor, that was a deployment, it was a peacekeeping mission. And then we're there for six months. Then it came back.

Avon [00:19:54]:

Then I probably almost a year later, or a couple of years later, having done other training, promotion courses, etcetera, went to Afghanistan. And then towards the end of that I decided to transfer, went to intelligence, did that for a year and a half, got posted to Darwin, met my now business partner. I don't know who you've met. I didn't know he was going to be my business partner at that time. And I sort of was. Started a degree and wanted to get out. I trained myself physically, transferred to intel, worked myself mentally. And when I got posted with the tank regiment, they didn't know like as intel, they didn't know how to use me effectively.

Avon [00:20:36]:

So I kind of lost interest and then decided to discharge. So yeah, started the degree and that's all.

Pete [00:20:45]:

And went out. Yeah. So how long were you in the army altogether?

Avon [00:20:48]:

Seven years.

Pete [00:20:49]:

Okay. And one of the things you said, you mentioned earlier was that you've got a very strong. How did you describe it in terms.

Avon [00:20:58]:

Of locus of control?

Pete [00:21:00]:

Locus of control, yeah. So what was it like having that and knowing that's part of you and being in an environment like the army where certainly from the outside it seems so much of your life is controlled for you that you don't have the ability to kind of exercise that own locus of control.

Avon [00:21:19]:

Yes and no. Like there is, there were a lot of requirement for self control. If you're on a parade ground and you have to stand still while you're doing drill and not move, there's a lot of self control there. And you can sort of tune out and look away and sort of be with your thoughts for a bit. And then, um. Or like you're in an ambush waiting for the enemy to walk past. You have to stay very very still and have to be, uh, have a lot of self control. But you know, you're part of something, you're part of a mission that in that case you felt better about being part of a team because they're also motivated and driven to be part of that team.

Avon [00:21:50]:

And people do have that sense of self sacrifice, mateship and teamwork, which you definitely do not get when you leave the military out in civilian world, dog eat dog, every man, every man, woman and child for themselves. So yeah, there's a sense of belonging, there's a sense of purpose. And you definitely lose that when you leave.

Pete [00:22:08]:

Did you know that it would be as stark a contrast as it turned out to be?

Avon [00:22:14]:

Well, yes, but it's more that you have a. How do I put it? You understand that it's different, but there's pros and cons. Like, you know, after a while, there is that regimentalness of the military, and. And sometimes you feel as though, you know, despite your experience, you know, the next person that you come across doesn't understand, you know, what you know? So you think you go, all right, well, I've got experience. I should be, you know, respected for that. Particularly when you go away from real life military operations in a war like zone and you're given a couple hundred rounds of ammunition, explosives, and you're walking around, you get to have the say of when you pull the trigger or, you know, you go out, like all these range practices where everything's strict and regimented and whatever, and then you go up to Afghanistan. They're like, all right at that mountain, target practice. How about it? Then you get back to regimental land and it gets to be a little bit tedious.

Avon [00:23:15]:

So I think that wears on you a little bit. And then, you know, there's times where I've actually gone back since during COVID I did Covid assist, so everybody stopped making decisions in business. I wasn't able to make money from doing work because everyone was like, oh, well, let's just wait and see how this goes. And so I went, well, I'm not going to sit around on my hands. So I. I had my uniform in the cupboard. It's the old one. They've since upgraded it.

Avon [00:23:38]:

You know, I applied online. There's like a little portal where you can log in and go, I'm looking for reserve work. And this came up. I put in an application, got a phone call. They're like, yep, come on in, fill out these forms. And. And then away we went. So I did that for about two months, three months, and then business picked up again and then I left, went back to do business.

Pete [00:24:00]:

It's great. I love how we've bounced from the army before you left to having a business and then bouncing back, and then it's like, it's great. I love conversations like this. The stark contrast I was referring to, though, was more about, you're in the army, you know you want to leave. Did you have any kind of comprehension or idea, what was that like? What was that experience like of going from, you know, this? You described a regimented environment. Although there's aspects of flexibility there into an environment where you're totally on your own, I guess, in a sense.

Avon [00:24:37]:

Well, you know, my wife was employed. She had a job. She is sort of like my understanding of that world. So I wasn't completely devoid of information of what I had to do. So, you know, I was preparing for it in advance. I had gotten a working towards a degree. I did a couple of, like, courses. I tried early on that there's a problem with certifications out of military.

Avon [00:25:00]:

Right. So as an infantry, yes, I've got a lot of skills, but when people try to translate that to certificates and pieces of paper to say, this is your experience, civilian world tend to go, oh, we don't understand it, so we don't think you have the skill. I couldn't get a cert four in anything because. Nothing. I contacted the army education department, and they're like, oh, no, you don't have any certificate for us, and we can't give you any RPL towards anything. I was like, oh, great. RPL recognition of prior learning. So there was a civilian company.

Avon [00:25:33]:

I think they had experienced the same thing out of military and emergency services. So they set up this RPL organization, and you send them your service record. And then they came back and they went, yep. You qualified for five cert four s in security and risk management, OhS leadership and management, and a couple of others. Great. Well, that's better than nothing, because other than a bit of schooling, which I didn't do. Fantastic at, that was pretty much it. Since then, I've done some diplomas, some other cert forms.

Avon [00:26:04]:

I did a degree, did MBA. So I don't think I'm dumb. I think it was just people didn't understand how they could apply certain skills into whatever business. So rather than do that, I bought a business. I tried looking for jobs while I had some leave towards the end, and anyway, I ended up buying. And we timed it so that I had four days off between the day I finished when I went on the training to run this business.

Pete [00:26:29]:

So you started your business career with buying a business?

Avon [00:26:32]:

Yeah.

Pete [00:26:32]:

I didn't know that.

Avon [00:26:35]:

I'm full of surprises.

Pete [00:26:36]:

What business did you buy and why that one?

Avon [00:26:39]:

A coffee shop. And it was. We could afford it because I had the deployment money, and it was like a franchise, like a brand system. So we figured it's easy. There's processes. We don't have to start from scratch. It was already existing, and we grew it, and we pretty much doubled the revenue over four years, paid back the loan, but yeah, you asked me in an email before about zigs and zags. So there was a major gas project in Darwin that was basically.

Avon [00:27:10]:

They built a camp for like three and a half thousand workers and. And Darwin was going nuts. Like, houses doubled overnight in value. People were in and out all the time. So you had quite a. Quite a busy, you know, cityscape. There was tons of tourism. And then the one day the gas project announced, we're done, we're going to shut down, and they pretty much fired everyone.

Avon [00:27:37]:

The place became a ghost town. So we got rid of the business, pennies on the dollar, and then we moved to Brisbane.

Pete [00:27:45]:

The business up in Darwin. Okay, I didn't clock that.

Avon [00:27:48]:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I got out and we stayed in Darwin for like ten years. So that seven years was all of my regular army time. So that was full time. There was reserve time before that. And then it's in Darwin for six. Oh, yeah, very much. Six years because of year training and then six years and then the next four years.

Avon [00:28:08]:

As a business owner, I should have.

Pete [00:28:11]:

Asked because in my head I was still thinking Victoria Melbourne and because Darwin's probably about as far away from there as you could possibly get, isn't it?

Avon [00:28:18]:

Pretty much, yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't choose that location. I got posted there.

Pete [00:28:22]:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, I get that. So that's in terms of pressure and Azag, an external pressure, that's pretty significant.

Avon [00:28:31]:

Well, yeah, one of many. So, yeah, one thing I did in that business was I pretty much automated myself out of a job. I had task management systems. I had. And I know you're going to get to. How do we get to where we are now? So current business is a result of this? Pretty much. I was working when we first took over. We had a lot of turnaround work, replace the entire set of staff.

Avon [00:28:56]:

The first set were, you know, all backpackers didn't care. The second set were influenced by the first set. Third set were amazing. I had them for years, many of them quite junior, you know, kind of like the Maccas model. Get them in young, train them, give them an opportunity. You know. We went from crazy wild and loose to. Everyone had the uniforms, everything was clean.

Avon [00:29:14]:

Log books were completed. And we went from.

Pete [00:29:16]:

I can see influences from the army coming in there.

Avon [00:29:18]:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But like, I'd get a call, I'd say work 30 days straight, 1214 hours days. And, yeah, for 30 days we mapped it out on the calendar and on, like, my one day off in like, forever, I got a phone call at 05:00 a.m. hours. I was really keen on asleep in. So I get this phone call at 05:00 a.m. and say, oh, the coffee machine's leaking. So I got dressed, went in, and it was the continuous flow button.

Avon [00:29:47]:

It's literally go click and done. Life was fixed. So I thought, this is crap. So I recorded a video on how to fix all of the things, and then I saved it to YouTube as an unlisted video. When I had that problem. Next, I texted them the link, and then they were able to fix the problem because, you know, you've always got different staff and, you know, they didn't receive the training or they forgot whatever. And so when I sent that link, I'm like, hmm, I could do this better because I still got a phone call. So then I discovered a help desk solution where I could have knowledge articles, and I wrote knowledge articles on everything.

Avon [00:30:21]:

How to do the banking, how to, you know, order food, how to do this, how to do that. And then I thought, hmm, well, that's great. But now I need to have some feedback loop on when this stuff is happening, because if stuff doesn't happen by a certain time, then you miss out, and then it becomes a painful process to fix it. So I built a task management system. I used just a general app, and then I made it work for me. And then I had reminders. So, like, this task would come up on this day time, and then I would get a notification when they completed it. And if they didn't complete it by a certain time, I'd be looking at my watch, knowing when stuff has got to happen and I could call them up, go, hey, you haven't done this thing yet.

Avon [00:30:56]:

Why not? So I was able to do a lot there and then I had a time clock facial recognition scanner, like, all these little things, and they all worked out together. And I ended up having, like, pretty much all of my time back. And then I started building relevate.

Pete [00:31:10]:

It's so fascinating to me, Aron, to hear that what I know you're so great at in the business that I've only ever known you in, came from this experience that you've just shared. How many of your customers would know the origins of your expertise in doing the work that you do?

Avon [00:31:30]:

A handful. It could be a long story to tell. So I try.

Pete [00:31:34]:

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. Well, I hope in telling you in here that we can, you know, share the story more because it's an important part of your story and credibility for doing what you do?

Avon [00:31:47]:

People were asking me if I could do it for them. So that's what kind of found it relevant.

Pete [00:31:52]:

Were you married at this time when you were doing the coffee shop?

Avon [00:31:55]:

Yeah.

Pete [00:31:55]:

Okay.

Avon [00:31:55]:

Yeah, we actually. We were. My wife was pregnant with our first child.

Pete [00:32:00]:

As you bought it?

Avon [00:32:01]:

No, a little while after. So I have memories of her standing at the. Standing at the register doing everything whilst, you know, with the beach ball in front of her. And then later on, you know, I'd take my daughter, even had her in the front carrier in the stockroom unloading boxes and all that sort of stuff. So. And then, you know, taking them for baby chinos and things like that.

Pete [00:32:22]:

Where did you and your wife meet?

Avon [00:32:24]:

When I got posted to Darwin and then got sent to South Australia about two weeks later, it was Easter and I got a week's leave and I thought, oh, well, I've never been to Sydney before. So I went to Sydney, went there and went, this is boring. I've never been to Tasmania. Then I flew to Tasmania and then I saw all that. My parents were involved in a Volkswagen car club and I saw all of these volkswagens around and people with t shirts saying Volkswagen. And I was like, I remember now that there was an event, I've completely forgot about it. And so I called them on, where are you guys? And then they said, oh, we're in this wharf area. So I was ten minutes away.

Avon [00:33:05]:

I walked there and then she was just. Her family was involved in the club as well, but I'd not seen her for years and years and years. And anyway, I saw her at a car looking at a cardinal, walked up and said, hello. She didn't recognize me. We ended up hanging out together for the next couple of days because I ended up staying with the family and all that sort of stuff. And, um, we just got. There was no, like. Because every other year there were other kids her age that she'd run off with and I'd just be on my own.

Avon [00:33:32]:

And then this year there was only us, so. So we spent more time, we got to know each other. She was stuck with you pretty much, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So they call it Stockholm syndrome.

Pete [00:33:42]:

Yeah. What a great story. It's almost like you. It's almost like you traveled around Australia, you know, Darwin, Sydney, Tasmania, like, searching for her. It's great.

Avon [00:33:55]:

And then, yeah, we were remote. Yeah, remote relationship for a while. And then she made the move and moved it to Darwin with me. And then she was there whilst I was deploying to Timor in Afghanistan. And so, you know, we made a life up there and I. And. Yeah, it's. The rest is history.

Pete [00:34:13]:

Yeah. That's great. And how many kids do you have now?

Avon [00:34:16]:

Two. Yeah. Two girls.

Pete [00:34:17]:

That comes with pressure all of its own, doesn't it?

Avon [00:34:20]:

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think the worst is ahead of us. So they are seven and nine. Yeah. So they're. I think a lot of the early hard work has gone now. They're, like, trying to help out in the kitchen and they can.

Avon [00:34:34]:

They want to cook food with me, which is helpful and hindering at the same time. I like to cook, so I do a lot of, like, smoker barbecues and roasts and stews. And even my fanciest one is steak or poiv.

Pete [00:34:50]:

Okay, tell me about that. Never heard of that.

Avon [00:34:51]:

It's a pepper, pepper steak cream thing. But you put the brandy in the pan, you simmer it, and then you tilt the pan and then one bay.

Pete [00:34:59]:

Okay.

Avon [00:35:00]:

Yeah. So it's impressive to make. Yeah. And quite nice. Yeah.

Pete [00:35:04]:

Excellent. Yeah. A little bit of a zag off there to explore your romance story. So we're back to Brisbane. Why Brisbane? I mean, Australia is a big place. You could have gone any of the places that you did before.

Avon [00:35:17]:

So Lisa's parents are in Brisbane and, you know, she moved to me for ten years. And then I thought, well, we'll go back there. And as the kids are growing up, they can. Hanging out with grandparents and grandparents.

Pete [00:35:30]:

Yeah.

Avon [00:35:30]:

And that sort of thing, and then strike roots here. And it was probably better because with relevant, Darwin is a bit slow and backwards, but with Brisbane, it just ramped everything up. And then I ended up meeting a fellow by the name of David Letizia, who you might know through the infusion soft circles. And then through that, I ended up finding McCanter. And then through that, I ended up finding you.

Pete [00:35:53]:

So it's a funny old world, isn't it?

Avon [00:35:55]:

I wouldn't have. Yeah, I wouldn't have gone and then met you.

Pete [00:35:59]:

So talk to me about relevate a bit. Why relevate? What does that even mean?

Avon [00:36:04]:

Well, we spent many an hour on the floor with Butcher's paper and Google and.

Pete [00:36:09]:

Were you with your. Were you. Were you back with. Was it Rahn? Is it.

Avon [00:36:13]:

This was in Darwin. No, this. Before Rana came along, this was in Darwin. So, yeah, my wife and I come up with a business name. It's actually a latin word. It means to lift, to erase, to lighten. And I put it on the t shirt. So it says lift, phrase, line.

Avon [00:36:26]:

Yeah. Early on, we had, like, different iterations and finally had the nice little logo. But the point was that, you know, we want to bring that relief or we want to get people their life back because that's what I did. So I got my own life back. I put all of these systems in and then I didn't have to sit there doing everything myself. I was able to take a step back. So I wanted to have that feeling of release. And that's why the color is green.

Avon [00:36:48]:

It's a very calming color. You know, it's why we've got all the trees in the background and things like that. And so we've got all these like concepts behind the brand that really suit do help carry it forward. And sometimes people don't see that initially. And then there's people that I've sat and spoken to and they're like, wow, I really get it now and I can see it all. And I think that's the good thing about a brand and having it well thought out is that sometimes it goes over people's head because they're really only looking at the surface. They're just going to do that one thing. But for someone who's going to take the time to discover and then they get that kind of wow moment, now they're enamored by it and that becomes a real driver.

Pete [00:37:24]:

And what do they get specifically, would you say?

Avon [00:37:28]:

There's a word, it's a. You would have heard it around some of our circles. Um, like, I see you, I know you, I'm with you, or something like that. So it's like that aha moment or the zero moment of truth, you know, like when you understand what someone is about kind of thing.

Pete [00:37:47]:

And when you were exploring relevant with Lisa in Darwin, was the writing already on the wall as far as the coffee shop was concerned or were you ready for a new start?

Avon [00:37:56]:

Well, both, because so it was like one phase into the other. So one was taking off, the other one was dying off. So we kind of like pulled the pin, made the switch and kind of had to start again, I guess. But nonetheless, we kind of took all those lessons and then just went all in on it. So technically, I've taken a few jobs in between, but most of that was only ever part time because I spent a hell of a lot of time trying to grow this.

Pete [00:38:22]:

What did you have in mind? So when you and Lisa were sitting on the, on the floor kind of mapping out brand names and stuff and sort of thinking about the business that you would, is Lisa an active part in the business or there is support for you?

Avon [00:38:36]:

No. So she works at a pharmaceutical consulting company as the office manager, but she has helped out in various bits and pieces throughout the journey. It's mostly been my thing, and it's good to have a safety net with someone who's employed and then someone who could be a little bit more entrepreneurial and wild and crazy and fancy free. And the other thing too is it kind of grounds you, you don't have that. You know, it's good to have different thinking. You don't want to be all one, you know, all in, let's go guns blazing. Kind of equate it to like, you've got a, someone walking a dog. Like, the dog wants to go all, everywhere and, you know, explore and go off track, but the walker wants to stay on the path and they might get dragged around by the dog and experience new things, but at the same token, the dog is kind of being kept somewhat within range of the path.

Pete [00:39:25]:

So, great analogy.

Avon [00:39:27]:

The two together go on a better journey. Yeah.

Pete [00:39:29]:

Yeah. That's wonderful. So are you the dog or the walker? So what did you have in. So when you were kind of just starting to think about this thing and you came up on relevant, what was, what did you have in your mind's eye? What was your vision for what you thought you might be able to create at the time on your own?

Avon [00:39:48]:

Exactly what it is now, pretty much. We, you know, you should see my first YouTube video. It was horrendous. First of all, it was on my mobile and I said, I'm going to start this little thing called relevant, talking about business systems and helping people be more efficient and let's see where it goes. The shirt was black with a green trim, so the colors were still there. The logo font hasn't changed. The lift rays lighten hasn't changed. The software platforms that we work on have changed.

Avon [00:40:19]:

Um, before it was quite small and scrappy. I don't think tech consulting was much of a thing at that time at all. I thought we thought we were a little bit cutting edge at the time. And through all of that, it's definitely become more mainstream. Like, I think it was, it was, you had like a very big it degree or you didn't do anything, whereas I never had the it degree. I had come from it more of the, I guess like an intelligence analyst. Like you are gathering information on people things and stuff, and then you are processing that and then you are coming up with decisions and then you're passing along orders, basically. So it's really more of a communication thing.

Avon [00:40:56]:

So I don't. I think the medium through which we've built it has changed. Definitely thought about having team members and consultants, and one of the things we talked about early on was having people do software demos and then back briefing to the team so that we could test everything and kind of really understand what was out there. So that when we talked about something and recommended something to someone, that we had tried it ourselves. That was small thinking. That was more like, you know, we're internally briefing each other rather than what is now. You know, you could do that on YouTube and make it very public, and I do. And then you've got other platforms like Capterra and G two, and I'd love to do something like that, which, you know, their software recommendation platforms where you can search, what's this and what are the features and how does it compare to that tool? But I don't think anybody can really do that unless they've lived it.

Avon [00:41:48]:

You can't really effectively do that unless you've lived it. And now with about 50 to 100,000 products on the market, that's very hard to do. So I think we stick to a mainstream set, but the concepts are the same. It's kind of like accounting is a theoretical construct, and then accounting software is a little bucket. That is a tool that does some of the job, but that does not encompass all of it. It's same thing with using CRM or using ERP or any of that sort of stuff. There's a theoretical construct behind what you should do. Why, when, how, et cetera.

Avon [00:42:19]:

The software can never encompass all of that.

Pete [00:42:21]:

You mentioned that when I asked you about what you had in your mind's eye, the beginning of elevate is pretty much what it is now. But I can't imagine that it was a straight line journey from sitting on your floor in Darwin to sitting where you are now. What are some of the pressure points in your business journey which have made you into who you are?

Avon [00:42:44]:

Yeah, well, I mentioned that I found my business partner in the army, so I moved to Brisbane and I was doing exactly what I was saying. And I was doing is demoing software. Someone was advertising a CRM system on Facebook. So I messaged and I'm like, hey, I'd love to do a demo. Show me. Show me what you got. We booked a meeting, turned up and was sitting down. This guy looks familiar.

Avon [00:43:07]:

And so he's talking away, and I said, just, you look familiar. And he's like, yeah, you do, too. I'm like, all right, talk me through and your name is familiar. Talk me through where have you been? What have you done? And we figured out it was army first army. He's like, yeah, I remember because you kind of work in similar groups, not necessarily directly in the same team, but, you know, you kind of move in the same circles. And he seems to remember us digging a generator pit together. I don't remember that specifically, but, you know, there's a million things to do with a million people. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Avon [00:43:38]:

So anyway, we joined forces. There was a third business partner at the time, and that guy said he wanted to be, he loved the letters, you know, CFO C Ioctocmo. So he wanted to be the CMO. So we're like, yep, we'll bring it. So he had Rana, my business partner, current, had a web hosting company at the time. I did relevate. So I had customers. He had customers.

Avon [00:44:01]:

This third business partner talked to a game, said he worked at some major corporations, global ones, brands that you would recognize. And so he wanted to be the CMO. And we're like, fine, we need a marketing someone to drive the marketing. You do that. We'll keep doing what we're doing. And because with my business partner, runner, his client set were awesome for me and mine, awesome for him. So there was already a direct synergy and excellent cross sell. And so we started a company, the three of us, and we all put forward $5,000 each and had a little shareholder agreement saying that this will be your only job, et cetera.

Avon [00:44:35]:

And then what happened was some of the team were not happy because we had a couple of contractors and staff and an intern, and they were saying that he was always a roadblock on things, like were trying to get the website off the ground and hes like, no, no, its got to be perfect. Weve got to do this, weve got to do that. And after four months, I said to him, do we have a marketing strategy? Do we have a brand strategy? Do we have anything a CMO should be doing? Nothing. He was working another job or trying to work on another business idea at the same time, perfectionist. And so he was quite frustrated that no one would listen to him. I'm like, well, have you got to know them? Have you spent time conveying what it is you need? Check in with them and then, you know, ask them, do they understand? Do they need help, etcetera. And, but no, because he sort of expected that they, because he was one of the owners, that he would, or that they would do what he asked. And so anyway, he ended up quitting.

Avon [00:45:32]:

So we paid him out and just got on with it. Yeah, it exploded. So he really missed out. But after that, because you're asking what the zigs and zags are, we'd been trading for a year and a bit. We had a pretty good cash saving. We'd been pretty good with some big clients. We had some really excellent contractors still with us today that we decided to go big and buy another business. We'd looked at a couple of of other ones.

Avon [00:46:02]:

We'd looked at some web hosting companies. That would have been good because you can just consume. It's like a rent roll. So real estate agents sell their rent roll to somebody else. So same thing. Everything carries on. Just different owner, different bank account. That's it.

Avon [00:46:16]:

Anyway, web hosting was supposed to be like that, but we didn't buy a web hosting company. No, we bought an IT company. The problem with this IT company is that there were almost no documentation on anyone. There was a ticketing system, there were staff, there was an office. The guy was a classic narcissist. So anyway, after about four months of this six month handover period, he's like, I'm out, I'm leaving. He leaves. He set up a cyber security, and we always knew he was going to go to the cybersecurity thing.

Avon [00:46:43]:

And we always said, let's be friends, because I knew the guy beforehand. Thought I knew him.

Pete [00:46:47]:

Thought you knew him.

Avon [00:46:48]:

He was reserve infantry as well, so I thought, oh, veteran, I could trust him. Anyway, so he immediately set up in direct competition and punched clients. So he probably took about 100 grand worth of clients. And at that time, we'd gone through and found that there were other cases against him where he had done a breach of non competition and that sort of thing previously.

Pete [00:47:10]:

Breach his contract 100%.

Avon [00:47:11]:

Yeah. So there were court documents. He'd actually changed his name at some point. So his name was. His last name was something completely different. Can't find much on the guy. Pretty sure he's a. Yeah, serial fraudster or something like that.

Avon [00:47:25]:

It's not cool.

Pete [00:47:27]:

And I must have. Both are surprised and possibly, I mean, how was that particularly considering the army connection, the veteran connection for you?

Avon [00:47:36]:

Well, it was disappointing. But rather than spend 50 grand on lawyers fees to go and sue him when he's like, got all these trusts and corporates and shell companies and stuff that probably would have not recovered anything, you'd have a nice court document there that says, yep, you won, but you would have nothing to show for it. So we just decided to focus everything on the customers that we had, did our best to, you know, locate the situation or whatever. I mean, we still, we were a 400,000 revenue business. We bought this one, which had very low margins, high turnover, because he was trying to inflate the sale price. But then, you know, at the expense of the quality relationships with some of the customers. And of course, some, some were aligned to him. They were, always were.

Avon [00:48:18]:

But by combining the two businesses together, we traded at 1.4. It lost a little bit, went back to 1.2, but we stayed there and we started coming back up again. So we still have the bigger business and we still have a lot more gross profit than what he had running. So I don't think it's that bad. I think we took a bit of a hit and was a little bit of a zag. Certainly was quite frustrating. But at the end of the day, you know, just deal with it and move forward.

Pete [00:48:50]:

What was your biggest learn from both of those experiences? Because both of those are kind of like relationships that seemed like that they were going to work well and didn't. What have you learned?

Avon [00:49:01]:

Trust no one really? Well, pretty much, yeah.

Pete [00:49:05]:

I mean, you trust runner?

Avon [00:49:08]:

Oh, definitely, yeah. So, yeah, pretty much like, we have the same brain. He's brother from another mother. So, yeah, there are people that trust, but, like, you know, I mean, like in a business transaction where if someone needs to, like, you should play it like chess, doesn't matter who, who, how much you think you trust them. I mean, we were probably, you know, quite flexible on the sale price. We're like, yeah, we'll look after you. You help us do migration. It was all very amicable and friendly because that's the relationship I thought we had.

Avon [00:49:35]:

I knew this guy for a number of years through networking, but I didn't know that side of him. So that kind of, even though you think you know someone, it's like you don't know them until you've really tested them. But I could safely say that, you know, we've, we've got more than that in terms of not testing by baiting someone, but just through happenstance of the business relationship. You know, you start with something small and then you go to something medium, it goes bigger and everything all works out fine. You know, you trust them. That's not necessarily testing. Like, I'm going to sabotage you and then see what you do that's, that's wrong. I don't believe that should happen.

Avon [00:50:08]:

But, you know, you try with a little, then a bit more, then a bit more, and then always keep yourself.

Pete [00:50:13]:

Coming, because ultimately you want your, your customers and partners and strategic partners to trust you 100%. If everyone has this mindset of trust, no one, then where does that, where does that leave us? So it kind of does speak to the fact that trust is required, but how do we, how do we get it?

Avon [00:50:28]:

Well, that's funny, because I know I kind of said trust, no and more with a point of establish trust first is probably the best one. So it's not as though you don't trust, it's that you need to very stringently establish it first. And so we almost have that stitch into our values and that we say we want to do these activities so that you trust us. And even if they think it's excessive, you know, for example, is I'm only going to do this little thing and I'm going to my door for free, or I'm going to, you know, we'll try this project first. I want you to trust us, and I will be very transparent with everything. So we kind of, like, stray away from, you know, those, like, smoke and mirrors or mysterious or if everything is not 100% clear. That's what I guess I mean by saying that, like, it's an easy one liner, but there's more contextual information that you need, I guess, to understand my standpoint on that.

Pete [00:51:19]:

Trust is a. It's. It's both simple and complex at the same time, isn't it? You kind of, you know when it's there, but articulating how you actually get there can not be quite so straightforward.

Avon [00:51:33]:

Yep. So, yeah, there's. There's more zags, and this one's in my personal life. So after all of that, and just.

Pete [00:51:44]:

Just let's set a flag in the sand as far as timeline is concerned. So what. When were we talking about in terms of this it company and, and the CMO? Were they around about the same time?

Avon [00:51:55]:

Yeah. So another CMO thing was probably two years before. So that was like 2019 or 2020, actually. Yeah, 2020, right. Then not long before COVID And then we acquired the business probably two years ago now, actually, this was before the business acquisition. So this was where one of the reasons leaving was, you know, the situation with my parents. At the risk of this being very public, once this is published, they became a little bit more around the sovereign citizen kind of movement and, you know, anti government and the illegitimacy as conspiracy theorists. And so whilst they, I guess they thought they were doing the right thing, they set up this, like, private foundation and then did some things to move some assets around.

Avon [00:52:47]:

Quite complicated, actually, but ultimately took a million dollars off my grandmother and then were about to leave the country. So I sued them, recovered the money, gave it back to my grandmother, and then, of course, my parents left the country and we dont speak anymore. So that happened just before acquiring the business. And then that was. That really knocked me for six. I would say that was one of the biggest zags. Then. Then the business thing was a little bit more like, palatable.

Pete [00:53:18]:

I kind of almost don't know what question to ask about that because it seems so traumatic on so many levels. Are you able to put into words.

Avon [00:53:30]:

How you felt staring into the abyss?

Pete [00:53:33]:

Really? Yeah.

Avon [00:53:34]:

Yeah, I'm like, fine now, but, like, at the time, there was just days where I just could not think, I could not do anything, I couldn't eat, and I'd just be just, you know, lying there and just. Your whole body just feels heavy. Yeah, just everything sinks. But, you know, like, I think, you know, that the. Like I said, the diamond is falling down, the pressure. Not that I'm that all that shiny and polished, but it's probably like the business thing wasn't that bad after having such, you know, I guess you kind of like, it tears your sensibilities apart to just have to make certain decisions or to. To do certain things and things. You think everything you knew being sort of like, challenged and having to, you know, reimagine what a future might look like, that's.

Avon [00:54:21]:

That's different. So, yeah, that's probably.

Pete [00:54:23]:

And do you not talk to your parents because of what they did?

Avon [00:54:27]:

Yes, they. There was a point where we could have called. We asked the court not to bring her a police investigation, and so we recovered the money and just said, look, we're back to reset you. Do you do what you like? Where. I even said where we're fine to talk again. As long as we don't talk about all the sovereign citizen crap, we can have a normal conversation. Talk about the weather and your health and let's go from there.

Pete [00:54:52]:

But that hasn't happened yet.

Avon [00:54:53]:

No, no. They claim that she was my grandmother. They claimed that she was not able to remember anything, that she had dementia and all that sort of stuff and all throughout. I'm talking to her every other day. She's 94 at the moment and she's following me up. Oh, how's the case going? Have you thought about this? How are we doing here? So that's not the veteran. No way.

Pete [00:55:11]:

Sharpest tax.

Avon [00:55:12]:

Oh, 100%. That just that they hadn't shut up long enough to listen to her or taken a moment to speak clearly enough because, you know, aged, you're fighting through eyesight and hearing. It doesn't mean the brain's not there.

Pete [00:55:24]:

And what about the impact on your kids?

Avon [00:55:28]:

We sort of drifted away from them. Anyway, this has happened over a period of years that they've become more withdrawn. The rest of the wider family don't, you know, they try to engage with them, but it's always a chore. They try to get whatever information they can out of them, but they're very closed off. So, yeah, I have the rest of the family and we just pretty much just don't talk about it, so. But other than that, the girls don't really like. They kind of know, but they're not too confident soon.

Pete [00:55:55]:

Yeah, I can see how having that happen in your personal life as a contrast, like anything, that. Having that kind of situation, you know, emotional entanglement with your parents and what it ended up in. If you can deal with that and get through that. Okay, business, throw at me what you like, I can deal with it kind of thing. Is that how it was for you?

Avon [00:56:19]:

Yeah. I was much more disconnected from the first. We bought the business off him being, leaving and then poaching clients because, you know, they were more like, you know, an aggressor kind of thought of them, not personally, whereas the other one was someone who you thought was on your side that has shaped your way of thinking, speaking, interacting with the world, then being a completely different person and then having to deal with so much like internal conflict on every thought, word, action. You know, like you get told or, you know, knocked around a bit if you talk back and. And now you're talking back very hard and there's like an internal fear that really cuts to the core. Yeah.

Pete [00:57:03]:

Yeah.

Avon [00:57:03]:

So you decide. Anyway, let's move on.

Pete [00:57:07]:

Have you. I'm just curious, have you, I say, gone to therapy? I mean, have you. Have you discussed it with a talking professional or I. You kind of just.

Avon [00:57:15]:

No. No.

Pete [00:57:16]:

Stoic and dealt with it, that one. Do you think there might be any merit in talking to a talking professional?

Avon [00:57:21]:

Oh, I mean, I have a few close friends that I talk to things about, but other than that, no, not really. Like I said, I've got a very internal locus of control. I feel that a lot of time. I know that therapists might have degrees and things like that, but it's probably more someone with a life experience that you would attribute to having enough respect for. To say, yes, you would get it, or you would understand or you would know what this is actually like, because there's a difference between reading about it and going through it. So I would have more respect to speak with someone. It's like, you're a veteran. You don't go talk to a civilian therapist about, you know, that one time when this happened, you're better off going to talk to another army buddy or something like that, because they're like, although.

Pete [00:58:03]:

Having said that, I mean, and I haven't experienced the army thing, so I can't say that there are aspects of dealing with trauma and PTSD from a clinical perspective that surely would be applicable regardless of your. The particular experience that resulted in that trauma.

Avon [00:58:22]:

Possibly. I kind of think that, like, you know, when there's a real. Men don't see doctors, there's a whole concept of that somewhere lurking beneath me and then also in the military. And so I kind of. I'm like, I don't feel damaged by it. I feel like I've learned some things, withstand my tolerance and pain level. I don't feel like I need to, like I said, internal locus of control. I can deal with stuff, and I would imagine other people feel as though they need a little bit more support.

Avon [00:58:54]:

But, you know, maybe that comes from feeling a little bit isolated as a kid and just being able to cope and deal with it, and then that's become the thing that I can take no matter where I am.

Pete [00:59:04]:

No, that makes sense. So where are you now?

Avon [00:59:07]:

Brisbane crowd room.

Pete [00:59:09]:

You know what I mean?

Avon [00:59:10]:

Right. Well, relevate is we have Brisbane people in Brisbane City, Melbourne, New Zealand, and India. I've got an office in India and in Brisbane with room for 35 people in the indian office, and we've got room for three in the Brisbane office. But it's really only a satellite office. Most people could work from home, but because we have the it company, we need somewhere to store hardware and somewhere for call outs that they've got, like a fan base. We have clients in every major continent. I put out a little map the other day, like a pin map kind of thing on social media. It's surprising the number of, like, global customers that we've had trying now to be a little bit more that we talk like, major.

Avon [00:59:55]:

One of our goals is to be a globally recognized consulting and professional services company. So we are trying to be a little bit more global. Like I said, you know, being in India and Vietnam, and we've got a few contacts now in the US. We close the client in Canada the other day, so got one in Israel and some other things like that. So I think now also we've got some big relationships. We close the first ASX listed company the other day, so that's australian stock exchange. So they're quite large, they're multinational. They are listed in the US as well.

Avon [01:00:30]:

But some of the clients that we're working with are much bigger and we're trying to really go for that because we see a bit of an opportunity in the market. And I think if we can position ourselves as like professional, corporate, high quality, get it right the first time, that we can really own that space.

Pete [01:00:48]:

I mean, it's not why this podcast exists, but I am immensely curious about how so relevate has been going seven years.

Avon [01:00:58]:

Six. Seven years. Yeah, about that. Yeah.

Pete [01:01:00]:

So you hadn't, you'd only really just started your journey when you and I first 1st met. I hadn't realized that. So just for the sake of the listener who might be in a similar situation with a business that they're wanting to scale, they're wanting to grow, how do you go from being a small little team to landing a deal with a publicly quoted company for six figures? I mean, it sounds possibly outside the realm of possibility for the normal folk. Are you superman? What's special about you? Or is there nothing special? You just done certain things in a certain way on your zigzag journey that has allowed you to execute.

Avon [01:01:40]:

At this point, there's nothing, if there's anything you can take from everything that if you're listening, that you've heard so far, there is nothing special about me other than the fact that I just put left foot in front of right foot and then the opposite the other way. So, like, say, for example, my first client, you know, I was in Darwin, I charge $35 an hour, which is quite meager. And I thought that was. I was scared to charge that much. And then, you know, I did a few hours here and there, did heaps of pro bono work, trying to like, make a name for myself, get the experience. Then I went and, like, just the sheer amount of time, it's not like it happened overnight when I worked on a different product. And then after a while found that product, like the infusionsoft, I found that it attracted a lot of like coaches and consultants, which was very small and it had a limitation and they had a limited life cycle, had limited budgets. And then I thought, I will go to a bigger platform.

Avon [01:02:30]:

And then I found it really hard to break into a big one. But then I just kept pushing and then I found I work on Zoho a lot now, although I am a Salesforce partner and a Microsoft Dynamics partner, but I figured because I spread my knowledge across those others, now I understand that theory that sits above rather than the platform itself. So then I kind of stand out because I can say, well, this is possible if you're using this. And in an enterprise, you should be able to do that. This one might be a limitation. So here's some other opportunities that you could or options for you or something like that. And so I think I talk a bigger game, I think a bigger picture. I think people like that.

Avon [01:03:04]:

And sometimes it's about solving the business challenge, not just when someone says, can you make a button here? That's really only like you're in a box. You can only think about that much.

Pete [01:03:13]:

But how do you even get to the opportunity of having that conversation?

Avon [01:03:17]:

I mean, you do one small client, then your next client is slightly bigger, and then the next one is slightly bigger and then your next, like, and that's a long, long time. And through referral, was it not just through referrals? Sometimes, yeah, I do a hell of a lot of networking.

Pete [01:03:30]:

This publicly credit company in particular is what I'm talking about.

Avon [01:03:33]:

Oh, well, no, we built being the intelligence analyst, right. We look at key relationships. So I went to Zoho, you know, I flew down to the Adelaide office. I bought, I have made a little coffee brand because I like some way to connect us to them. Have my brand, like live in their office for a little bit and more than just like the crappy little pen and notebook or whatever that most people give. So I got my kilo bag of beans. And the best thing was that they did not have a grinder. So that we sit on the shelf and they'd look at it every time.

Avon [01:04:00]:

Everyone in that office would look at it as they walk in and go, oh, we should get a grinder. We should do, they've got one now I've got to send them another bag. But, you know, I build these relationships and I'd go to the, to the customer conference and then I met, you know, who is now, the guy is now a technical lead who's going to become a part of soon, hopefully. But basically we go and meet with these people, we build relationships and then, you know, this relationship gets to that relationship. Now I'm on the phone call with their sales teams every other day with, hey, we've got this client. We've got that client. Here's a lead. Here's a lead.

Avon [01:04:29]:

Here's a lead. Now I'm hooked up with the enterprise sales team and they're the ones that get you the big deals. But I don't think we would get that good of a deal if we didn't build those core relationships with people. And it's not just there like, we are partner driven. We know that no one wakes up in the morning and goes, yeah, I'm going to get me a CRM. It's because someone has been in their business at the right time when they're like asking for help. I don't know what I make. I've hit a glass ceiling.

Avon [01:04:54]:

I can't go forward. And they're talking to a sales coach or a business consultant or an accountant and they're like, I don't know what to do here. And they're like, oh, I know a guy. So we build those relationships and then we get introductions, and then that's how we get the client and of course referrals. But that two pronged approach is massive. Like we can advertise all day long and get no one.

Pete [01:05:15]:

Yeah, I mean, anyone that knows you now knows that you are just a consummate networker connector. Relationship builder arguably seems a little bit at odds with somebody who has just a strong internal sense of locus of control. But I guess that's more of a. Not that you're independent. You've got to do it on your own. I guess I'm sort of rambling here. The question I want to get to is, where do you think that skill has come from for you? Because this is the first time in the conversation we've really spoken categorically about forming relationships and making connections. Has that always been there? Or is that something that you just kind of recognize that you needed to do to grow your business?

Avon [01:05:55]:

When I say local locus of control, it's I control as much as I can of what I can control, and I know what I can't control. And then I try to influence what I can influence, but I know that I'm the one doing the influencing. So if I'm not doing like an influence, and the people around you are important, it's not like internal locus of control means I'm a loner on an no man. I can't do everything on my own. I need other people. But if I'm going to work with someone, you know, it's on me to call them, say hello, or to follow up and say, hey, what's going on here? Or to provide as much information as I can so that they can get the picture of what they need to do. I have one big thing. I try to do things that scale.

Avon [01:06:38]:

So if I'm working with someone, I will do. I like to set things in motion so that I can step away. So my alertness of control is give them everything they need, give them the process, get the direction, make sure they're motivated to do so. Say off you go, a little running that way and then I can go back and check. So my control measure is all of the things I've done to prepare that person to go and do that task. But I know that I have to go and do it. Like I have to write the procedure, I have to write the process, I have to build the system. And I know I can do that.

Avon [01:07:05]:

I can fiddle around and tick it.

Pete [01:07:06]:

With stuff that's in your control.

Avon [01:07:08]:

That's in my control, absolutely. And if I don't do it, it won't happen full stop.

Pete [01:07:12]:

But what about specifically about this thing of you are known publicly. I've seen other people posting on LinkedIn about what a great connector and builder relationships you are. Is that something that's just evolved since you started relevate or do you see echoes of that in an earlier iteration of Avon, so to speak?

Avon [01:07:31]:

No, there's, when I moved to Brisbane, there was some networking stuff that really worked well. I had to sort of like come out of, not out of my shell. I mean, you kind of, kind of get thrust into the limelight a bit. As in the military, you know, everybody gets a chance to lead, everybody is forced to somewhat become a leader. So that the idea is that if commander gets shot or whatever, that the next person can stand up and lead the patrol. So that kind of helped with being able to speak and being confident and all that sort of stuff. And I would say, you know, at school that probably wasn't the most social or, you know, not the cool kid, but maybe the sales thing, you go further back again, and the sales thing made me a little bit more able to talk to people, but then it was more of like some, a job I needed to do to get the next thing. It wasn't like something that was, came overly naturally to me, I think.

Avon [01:08:25]:

I don't think I was completely horrendous. Like, I'm not stuck in a dark room and can't talk to people, can't look at them, but, you know, it was something that, you know, I made myself do to go and get out and talk to people. And sometimes I found it easy really? It's not a. It's not a cut and dry thing. Yeah. I think that there was a huge influence from our networking group that was in Brisbane that went. That we used to meet face to face every week at 200 people in a room. You know, I'd get up and give talks, I'd invite people, I'd make those connections, built that muscle.

Avon [01:08:56]:

As soon as Covid happened, it went online and then they never went back offline. And so that 200 people in a room and, you know, 200 people on a zoom then dwindled down to twelve people. And so it's dead. It is gone. But I'm trying to bring back the 200 people in a room. Feel like I've been a part of heaps of networking events. I know what I like, I know what I don't like. I know what works and I know what doesn't work.

Avon [01:09:19]:

You need to build a community of people and it has a pulse and a life of its own. You need to grow it, you need to nurture it, you need to maintain it. If you try and move it and mold it and change it too fast, it will die. If you pointing this way in the sun and you turn the pot around, it's going to die. Because it was used to going that way and it's not ready to go that way. You've got to do it gradually. I think that there's been lessons learned, mostly by stuffing it up.

Pete [01:09:49]:

And you're talking about the relevant community here. Of course, in part that.

Avon [01:09:52]:

But you know, even. Even without the relevant community, that the concepts, again, like the overarching methodology, is the same. Irrespective of the tool that you use to drive it forward, is that people want to connect. Use the 80 20 rule of cut the crap as fast as you can and only focus on the good. It's more about those real connections that you make, not about meeting a criteria or ticking a box or. I turned up and I got my business card to 500 people. That's not what works. When you want to actually really sell and really grow a business, what really works is deeper understanding like that.

Avon [01:10:28]:

I see you. I know you. I understand you. Once you get to that, that's when you can really become the person that someone talks about at a barbecue. And we know that. That's how we make business. When someone is in a conversation and they go, I've heard this problem before and I know it's exactly the person to introduce you to. I get an introduction in my inbox at least every week.

Pete [01:10:45]:

That's amazing and inspiring as well. In equal measure. We're coming to, you know, we've been talking for an hour and a half. Just gone like that. Are you still working all hours? You still the. The ten year old in the. In the, uh, working in the. In the back of the garage?

Avon [01:11:01]:

If you're trying to do multi time zone, you do need a few, uh, early mornings and late nights. So I'm not. I'm not immune to it, so I will. I'll be fine with. If we want to go a little longer, that's fine.

Pete [01:11:12]:

And I think just as we're sort of coming towards the end, we recognize that your journey, like every guest on not a straight line, your journey to where you are now has. Has certainly been nonlinear and none of us have crystal balls. But you had a vision in your mind for relevate when you were sitting at the kitchen table in Darwin. Largely, it's come about, I think you said, as you saw what's in Avon's mind, in your vision for elevate over the next 510 years. I mean, you won't. I'll tell you now, you won't get there in a straight line. So spoiler alert.

Avon [01:11:51]:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Pete [01:11:52]:

But what do you see?

Avon [01:11:53]:

It was a globally recognized professional services and consulting firm. So that's a resume worthy cadet credential where people, you know, like, sometimes people go, oh, I've worked at Deloitte or I've worked at PwC. We want to be. Well, I've worked at relevant, so. And I think, you know, a lot of times people think, oh, you know, reputation is purely, like, we've worked with this company that's very self serving. I think if you are a. Something that someone else can be proud of is. Is equally as important.

Avon [01:12:22]:

So instead of us saying, we've worked with this company, we want companies to say, oh, we've worked with relevant.

Pete [01:12:27]:

Why is that important to you, do you think?

Avon [01:12:30]:

Oh, it's that word of mouth marketing. It's that clear signal to everybody else that we are high quality, valuable. So then we, you know, we get to charge what we're worth, make sure that we're not ever short of customers because people might be on a waitlist to work with us. But by being that, I guess that. Not sure what you're calling the business.

Pete [01:12:51]:

Because you could be that. You could be that in Brisbane or Australia or just the Pacific region. Why is the global aspect important to you? I guess is what I was getting to.

Avon [01:13:02]:

Well, right, okay, so everybody, every business has customers, and they need to manage the relationships not only with the customers, but rather than CRM, we think XRM. So CRM, erm, prmsrm. Customers, partners, suppliers, stakeholders, shareholders. Everybody needs a relationship. And that's kind of what that intel kind of thing is, is that knowing who is where, connect the dots between these relationships, understand the backstory history, drivers, motivators, things like that. And so globally, there's a lot of opportunity. And I think Australia is a little bit behind on tech. I think there's more.

Avon [01:13:40]:

There's certainly a currency advantage by trading in the US and even in the UK, so we can do the same great work, charge a little bit more and or even the same money, and then, you know, it's better value for someone in another country. The other thing too is seasonality. So in the US, they kind of work through Christmas. It's just like one, one or two days off. Most of their holidays are in the summer months, June, July, whereas in Australia, everybody stops making decisions and buying stuff around late November and don't pick it up again until about early to mid February. So there's a huge revenue gap of businesses. So we can do other things globally as well. Now we can take advantage of different markets, different economies, move at different speeds and start to diversify our risk.

Avon [01:14:25]:

And like I said, the world is more and more global. My business partner is originally from India. He moved to Australia when he was ten. He's an australian citizen. I was in the army with him. He's as Aussie as they come, but he happens to also speak five other languages, has family and connections near where our office is. But we've also got other customers in other parts of the world and aggressive growth goals. I don't want to ever be sitting around waiting for something to happen.

Avon [01:14:54]:

It's that locus of control thing again. Let's push it, drive it and go as big as we can go big or garnished.

Pete [01:14:59]:

I love that. That's been the through line of this, your locus of control. I think it's a good message for everyone, is just recognize what you can control, focus on that, keep putting 1ft in front of the other, as you say, and you know it'll work out. It won't be a straight line, but it'll work out in the end. This conversation, Avon, for me, just totally exemplifies everything great about not a straight line conversation. For the podcast, you know, we've touched on professional, we've touched on personal. You know, there's been some arguably traumatic things that we've spoken about. How you've dealt with it.

Pete [01:15:37]:

And I just want to thank you so much for sharing some of your time and some of your journey with me and the listener.

Avon [01:15:44]:

No worries at all. You're more than welcome. Thank you.

Pete [01:15:47]:

There's a couple of questions that I ask at the end of every episode. I want you to imagine your episode has been and gone and it's blown up on LinkedIn and people are like, oh my God, Avon. I didn't know this about him. And anyway, it's great. You obviously subscribe to not a straight line podcast. It's like, it's one of your most listened to podcasts coming out every week. I just want you to imagine, like in six months or a year's time, you get a notification from your podcast app. Although you wouldn't actually, because I know your phone's been on silent for five years.

Pete [01:16:14]:

But anyway, you go to your podcast app and you see the latest episode of not a straight line has dropped, and you see who the conversation is with, and you're like, I'm definitely listening to that episode whose name is on there that you want to. You want to explore their straight line journey.

Avon [01:16:32]:

I mean, I already know quite a lot of it, but it would be good to read in a bit more. Someone I'm working with at the moment in the US, who's an Australian who founded a company called with you, with me. They did. They got $40 million. Funding, went global, sold. Now he's part owner of a New York investment bank. And there was some very much not a straight line, a few bumps in the road along the way. He's even done podcasts with a famous australian billionaire.

Avon [01:17:00]:

But yeah, I'd be keen to find out more about that journey because again, veteran all these sorts of crazy, wild, crazy personal things in the way and got there in the end and maybe still, you know, battling to do other things or bigger things or what's their name? Tom Moore.

Pete [01:17:16]:

Tom Moore. Thank you, my friend. Appreciate that.

Avon [01:17:18]:

No worries.

Pete [01:17:26]:

Thanks so much for listening to this week's episode of not a straight line. If this conversation helped to reorient your internal compass or inspired you in any way, please let us know by heading to podcast Dot, not a straightline life forward slash rate and leave a rating and review. Thanks as always to Matthew Bliss of MB podcast services for his exquisite engineering of this episode. If you'd like him to help you with your podcast, contact details are in the show notes. And if you'd like to be a guest on the show or there's someone who's non straight line journey you'd just love to hear. Then please visit podcast Dot, not a straightline life forward slash guest. Thanks for being here with me and I'll see you next week for another amazing, deep, inspiring non straight line journey. Love.