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Filip Valica: Hey, everyone. Welcome to the product startup podcast, podcast that helps bring your product idea to life by chatting with successful inventors, product designers, and other industry professionals. This podcast is run by Mako

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Filip Valica: Design + Invent and hosted by Filip Valica. Our goal here is to get to the bottom of what makes a product successful, from initial idea to putting your product on the shelf. We're taking you step by step to build a functional product and scale your product business. Now onto the show.

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Filip Valica: The Product Startup Podcast, episode six.

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Filip Valica: Welcome to the Product Startup Podcast. Podcast, helping you turn ideas into successful products step by step with your host,

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Filip Valica: Filip Valica. Hi, everyone, and welcome to the Product Startup Podcast. In the last episode, we heard from Mat Hofma and Erik Polumbo from Mini Materials.

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Filip Valica: They make miniature center blocks and pallets, and they sell them online. Matt and Eric talked about prototyping on a budget, manufacturing in the U.S., and they gave us some great marketing tips for small product-based businesses. In today's episode, I'm joined by Kelsey Duffy.

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Filip Valica: She's the CEO and creative director of Versakini. She joined the swimwear industry in 2012, working for an innovative swimwear startup called Mix Bikini. You may recognize Mix Bikini from ABC's hit show Shark Tank.

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Filip Valica: Unfortunately for the company, it never got off the ground, but Kelsey was too stubborn to let the idea go. So today we get to talk to her about how she started and grew Versakini without any industry experience.

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Filip Valica: So let's get started. Hi, Kelsey. Thanks for joining me today. Hey, Phillip. Thanks for having me. How are you? I'm very good. Thanks for coming on the show. Maybe you can introduce yourself to everybody and tell them a bit about yourself and how you got to where you are today.

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Filip Valica: Sure. My name is Kelsey Duffy. I'm the CEO and creative director for Versakini. We're an interchangeable, reversible,

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Kelsey Duffy: innovative swimwear brand. How I got here today is a little bit of a long story, but we'll be sure to get through all that in the interview.

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Filip Valica: Okay, great. I guess let's start from the beginning really quick. You have a really interesting story because you were on Shark Tank for a little bit. Can you talk a little bit about

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Filip Valica: getting on the show, going through the process and how it worked out for you? Yeah, sure. So technically, I didn't go on the first show. I went on the follow-up episode. But

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Filip Valica: how I started out in this business, Mix Bikini, was the old company. At 2012, they went on and got a deal with Barbara Corcoran. At that time, I was the executive assistant to the former CEO.

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Filip Valica: And that's kind of where I learned about this, you know, the swim industry and kind of felt this passion for this product that I thought was so innovative and versatile that I had to be a part of it.

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Filip Valica: So, yeah, that's, I guess, how we fell in there. And that product is the product that you're working on now, or was that something different? Okay. So that was mixed bikini. If you've followed anything about the mixed bikini story, you'll see they're no longer in business.

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Filip Valica: They had a little interesting party, so to say, on the Beyond the Tank episode where I was a part of.

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Filip Valica: And, you know, Frank decided to move on to a new venture. He is now working in a scooter transportation business. So once Mixed Bikini officially had died, so to say, it was, you

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Filip Valica: know, it was actually a rather heartbreaking time for me where I didn't know how to pick up the pieces. And for me, it was such a reaction to see these girls. And they

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Filip Valica: love the product. They love the idea. They could see all the opportunity with it. And it just was never executed properly. And I lost a lot of sleep over that. You know, I tossed in turn for,

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Filip Valica: a good year and I was like, how can I make this work? You know, we have these connections. We have people that love it. You know, there were just things that needed to change. So that's when Versakini was born. I finally one day just said, enough. Let's go ahead and take all, you know, the necessary

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Kelsey Duffy: business operations and let's go for it. So that started officially in the summer of 2014. And then in January, we filmed Beyond the Tank and went on there and then really launched the brand then.

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Filip Valica: Yeah, so things didn't work out. You decided to go. ahead by yourself and you were able to come back on the Shark Tank and film the second episode or the trailer to I guess I'm not familiar how that works okay sure so um shark tank did a follow-up show

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Filip Valica: called Beyond the Tank and kind of like what happens after you make a deal and a lot of them are success stories some of them are you know they tank from there we filmed you know for a couple

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Kelsey Duffy: days and it was a little bit more so frank kind of closing the door on this venture but he's so excited about his new project and at that point it was kind of the balls in my hands and

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Filip Valica: and what do we do now? Before that, had you had any experience in the fashion industry or did you have experience with swimwear? No, no. I mean, I absolutely fell into it and fell in love with it. I did go to college in high school in South Florida.

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Filip Valica: So I felt the need for it. You know, it was just being a middle class kid and you go shopping one day, you know, you spend a hundred bucks at Victoria's Secret and you're like, oh, I love this. I'm so excited. And then a couple towels down, there's a girl wearing the same swimsuit.

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Kelsey Duffy: So it's just frustrating. for an affordable swimmer brand to create some kind of variety where that girls can really kind of tweak it to their own personality. Okay.

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Kelsey Duffy: It's funny that you say that because I went online yesterday and I looked at your site and I called my wife over to ask what she thought.

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Filip Valica: And she said, wow, that's really affordable.

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Kelsey Duffy: And I thought that seemed pretty standard.

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Filip Valica: But apparently swimsuits are pretty expensive for women. So maybe you can go into that little bit more for those of us that may not understand. It's interesting for such a tiny piece of material, right?

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Filip Valica: Right. Exactly. Yeah, there's a lot of labor. There's a lot of love and, you know, creation into the whole thought process of it. And, you know, the higher end swimwear brands are using

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Filip Valica: exclusive fabrics. You know, they're shipping things from Brazil or Italy. I think a lot of it has to do what they're making it in America. And you get a great marketing spin from, oh, you know, handmade right here in Miami or wherever you are.

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Filip Valica: But, you know, the normal girl's not going to go spend $250 on a swimsuit to. wear for a trip.

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Kelsey Duffy: So, you know, our quality is of par. We're using the same lycra materials. You know, we just have better manufacturing, better resources, and we can offer a better price. That's pretty

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Filip Valica: awesome. So maybe we can walk through the process a little bit. I kind of jump the gun on you. You went on the show, you filmed Beyond the Tank with maybe an idea. Did you have a prototype at that point? We had some samples and there's a lot of product development, especially in fashion. Things

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Filip Valica: change so fast. And I mean, you know, we're talking,

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Filip Valica: is this brawl cup thick enough? Should we even have bra cups? Do you like this color? Do you want this fabric? The length, the texture. It's quite the

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Filip Valica: process. And then you get to the fit. And that's probably one of the most important parts of it. So we did have a product at that time. And from there, the first collection

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Kelsey Duffy: we launched was called the Islands Collection. And it was just a series of basic geometric colors that were bright and tropical. And we were really trying to sell the idea of it, you

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Filip Valica: know, without overwhelming or, you know, throwing a bunch of prints and crazy colors together, so to say. So you basically had a few ideas of a product line, and you just went to launch with that?

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Filip Valica: Yeah, absolutely. At the end of the day, it's a fashion brand. There needs to be, you know, an artist or a designer to really, really give you that credibility. And finally, we've captivated

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Kelsey Duffy: that. We're working with Project Runway Star Amanda Perna.

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Kelsey Duffy: We'll get into a little bit more of that stuff later in the call. But we've got some beautiful prints. And, you know, I couldn't have asked for a better designer for this project.

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Kelsey Duffy: Okay. So you touched on a lot of things. So when you first kicked off the brand and you created some prototypes, did you have a designer that you're working with at the time?

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Kelsey Duffy: Or did you just put some things together that you thought worked? Or did you do any type of market analysis where you pulled people for colors? I mean, there's so much variability, especially

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Kelsey Duffy: I feel in fashion. And I'm a guy and I'm going to ask forgiveness now because I don't understand the market as much. But I do know, I feel that it's such a competitive

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Filip Valica: market because it's so, I don't want to say it's based on. opinion, but it's very much everyone has certain preferences. And if you're, you can't really mass market to everybody. And so how did you choose to speak to this particular girl?

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Filip Valica: Yeah, sure. I mean, you know, resourcing at the startup level, I started putting out internships at, you know, Parsons School of Design, FIT, New York, you know, looking for somebody who was semi-qualified

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Kelsey Duffy: to take on a project like this. And I did. I found a girl from Parsons. I had a great experience with her, but we wanted to keep it simple. And, you know, make sure that the product,

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Filip Valica: was good overall. That was definitely the most important part.

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Filip Valica: That's cool. So did you offer her any type of stake in the company if you were successful or was this like a one-off project where you just paid her for her services? It was more of an off project. We paid for her services.

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Kelsey Duffy: And I'm happy that we did so that way. I think that's one of the most important lessons as a startup is do not give up your equity. Don't do it. Try. Hold on to it. Do the sweat labor. Do everything you can. get a cheap deal, but try to hold off.

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Kelsey Duffy: I absolutely agree with that. I think early on, it's very cheap to go 50-50 with another partner, but then later on, once you have a large line and you're making lots of profit and now 50% is going to somebody else, on the one hand, if they're pulling their weight, then it's great.

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Filip Valica: And maybe you've got output that's greater than some of the parts, so to speak. But if not, then you have so much less equity to give up to investors or to anybody else that might want to help you. Yeah, definitely. In fashion, is there such thing as a patent on design?

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Filip Valica: Yeah, sure. You know, I'm learning more and more about this. There's two different ones. You have the design and then you have the utility patent. So the design is, I would call it a little bit more of a copyright.

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Kelsey Duffy: You know, you definitely want to try to protect yourself any way that you can. It's expensive. It's very, very expensive. And in fashion, it's such risky business that you only have to change

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Kelsey Duffy: the smallest percent. And somebody can literally go around your design and your art. So it's a catch 22, I think.

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Filip Valica: No, I think it's hard. I see that in industry as well. Companies have hired me to design around patents. Some of the smaller companies that maybe have done their own patent that didn't

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Filip Valica: consider the claims properly end up with something that's not enforceable or something that really doesn't give them enough teeth. So I guess you've hired an attorney that's helping you navigate this. Yeah, yeah. I have a great intellectual property attorney. He's actually out of Houston, close to you. Great.

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Filip Valica: Yep. And, you know, we've done our fair share of research just to make sure, you know, we're not stepping on.

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Kelsey Duffy: any toes. Everything that we're doing is, you know, completely legal and legit. And, you know, at the end of the day, once we get into bigger budgets, we'll be able to start really protecting and

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Filip Valica: copywriting our designs. All of our designs from Amanda are from scratch. So we want to make sure that those are protected and always stay with the brand. Okay. So have you done anything with the style or the cut of the swimwear or the way that you've gone about doing it double-sided?

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Filip Valica: Yeah. It's kind of tricky because you can't patent a bikini. You can't even patent the

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Kelsey Duffy: reversibility of a bikini or the shape of it, not going to happen. The clip and the way that it goes together, there is a possibility of it. And we're kind of perfecting that. And we'll definitely,

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Kelsey Duffy: of course, see legal coverage as far as is that to protect our concept. And I've seen that a lot as well on the product side where there's too much prior art to patent something. Like the bikini,

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Kelsey Duffy: it's been out there for too long. But maybe you can patent the manufacturer process to produce the product or something unique that makes that work. I've seen your product in motion, how it

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Filip Valica: reverses. And I could totally understand how you could patent something like that and block out some of the other competitors, because if it's much more difficult for the competitors, the key need to reverse, then effectively you've blocked out other people from entering the market

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Filip Valica: because people don't want to have to deal with complicated process to reverse their idea. Yeah, it's complicated. And we do have a little recon out there. I've seen some brands that are

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Filip Valica: kind of getting into this innovative, transitional mix and match level that we are. And I don't see it as being a problem. Of course, I want to protect myself and make sure nobody's copying my design.

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Filip Valica: But it's nice to see that there is becoming a demand for this mix and match and, you know, being creative. And it's more just about the swimwear, more than the swimwear. It's creating other

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Kelsey Duffy: pieces and really making it a lifestyle brand, getting into clothing, other accessories, and really

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Filip Valica: just captivating the message to women that, hey, it's okay to be indecisive. I changed my mind. I don't even know how many times a day. So this product will be able to help with

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Kelsey Duffy: that. That's very cool. So you're not marketing a style as you are a culture or a belief. Yeah. It's a theme, essentially. Another brand could go out there and maybe do a couple pieces,

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Kelsey Duffy: but to captivate the whole message, it would be challenging. And hey, yeah, best to luck. No, that's awesome. A lot of people don't even get started because they feel that the patent protection

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Filip Valica: side of it is too complicated or there's other prior art and maybe they shouldn't do anything, but you're at least the second guest or third guest on now that's talked about not really worrying about the patent side as much. Of course, you're pursuing it, but it's not,

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Filip Valica: you feel from your side that the marketing and the way that you execute is going to overshadow what anybody else can do. Yeah, I think that's a really good topic. I would suggest to anybody

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Kelsey Duffy: starting a business case sensitive of what your product is. You know, if it's a formula or a recipe, of course, yes, you're going to need a patent. But don't go out spending tens of thousands of dollars

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Filip Valica: when you don't have a product or you don't have a customer yet. You can wait. You have some time. When you first started to release your line, you got some feedback from your audience or your target market.

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Filip Valica: Did you have to tweak or adjust anything? Or were you on the mark from the beginning?

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Kelsey Duffy: You know, it's so funny. My market, the feedback that I get, we want more. Every woman wants something different. can you make me a one piece? Can you make me a boy short? Can you make something, you know, more supportive, something with padding? Oh, I think you should do plus sizes. I'm like, I know, I know.

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Kelsey Duffy: We're getting there, you know, one thing at a time. And I think you've hit one of the main issues

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Filip Valica: that a lot of smaller startup companies hit can't please everybody. You can't be everything to everyone. And so people say focus on your MVP. In your case, you focused on the reversible bikini top and

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Filip Valica: bottom and that's it because when I look at your line right now that's basically the dominant theme that I that I see yeah yeah we're just doing different style tops and what I mean by that you know some women want to show a little bit more so we offer some cheekier versions and you know

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Filip Valica: triangle tops bandos so they can you know take away the tan line and then people want

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Kelsey Duffy: girls want to be a little bit more covered and in some departments so we're working on expanding

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Filip Valica: in that direction and then bringing a couple accessories in the near future as far as cover beach bags, maybe even some kind of sunglasses or flip-flops, beach towels, just to incorporate

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Kelsey Duffy: the rest of the experience. Naturally, in the same theme where you're able to change the color of the bag by reversing it, maybe, or...

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Filip Valica: It's going to be multifunctional, you know, reversible. Well, it would be two-sided beach towels, but we have some ideas for some fun patterns, and I can't tell you too much, but we do have some ways to keep it in the theme, for sure. I definitely want to see you hit sunglasses.

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Filip Valica: in that theme.

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Kelsey Duffy: I think that'd be really cool. There's some brands out there that do sunglasses, and there's also some interchangeable shoes. One of the women that was on Shark Tank, I've actually met her a couple times, and she's doing great. She's got her shoes in Costco and Sam's Club,

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Kelsey Duffy: and she even has interchangeable Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders shoes right now. It's hilarious.

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Kelsey Duffy: That's awesome.

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Filip Valica: Yeah, so that's cool. You're pretty focused on the design of your product because you don't want to spread your focus too thin. You're currently selling a line of at least it looked like a dozen,

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Filip Valica: but different types of bikinis. And you said now you're starting to partner with Amanda. Can you get into that a bit? Yeah, definitely. Amanda Perna, she was on Project Runway season 9 and 14, I believe. She was invited back for their All-Star competition.

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Filip Valica: She is a South Florida designer. Her collections called The House of Perna, if you want to check out her ready to wear a line. But she does a lot of bright prints, florals, tribals, very fun, and she just has like the eye for the millennial girl.

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Filip Valica: So we've taken in, now we have 14 new designs that are coming out, and we should be hopefully launching this new website in the next day or two.

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Kelsey Duffy: We're doing our finishing touches on that. And yeah, the collection is, you know, fantastic. It definitely has the showcase feel to it and, you know, provides that luxury style and things that girls are really attracted to.

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Filip Valica: It's just frustrating people are like, oh, when can I buy it? When can I buy it? I'm like, oh, hold on. We've got a couple more days so they're going to be ready.

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Filip Valica: That's funny. Can you talk about, did you approach her? Did she approach you? And how are you able to kind of work together? Because you just described a luxury brand that's fun that

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Filip Valica: speaks in a certain way to a certain girl. Is that the perspective that you brought to Amanda? Or did you both come up with that? Was it more of a collaboration?

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Filip Valica: You know, I approached her, and it has been kind of a vision of mind to find designers that could adapt to different markets of, you know, different demographics of women.

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Filip Valica: I thought one day it would be great to do like a Kat Von D collection, go after your rocker girl, and then do like a Lily Pulitzer, Palm Beach kind of vibe. And I mean, I'll be honest with you.

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Filip Valica: I went on Instagram and I kind of started stalking her and just, you know, send a couple direct messages. And I'm like, hey, I don't know who I would talk to you about this, but I have a really. amazing idea for a collaboration.

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Kelsey Duffy: And then I finally got, I think, her director of operations email

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Filip Valica: and sent him a message. And he's just like, hey, you know, she's interested. Let's set up a call.

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Filip Valica: And, you know, we're both from New York. We kind of clicked right away. And she's just such a breath of fresh air to work with. Just fun, full of energy. So focused. She's just a great,

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Filip Valica: great person to have on the team. That sounds fun. It sounds like you can definitely get a lot more accomplished by partnering with somebody like that, then you could be yourself.

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Kelsey Duffy: Yeah, sure. I mean, I was terrified. You know, at that point, I was like, I have to find a designer.

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Filip Valica: Like, I'm not going to make it on time for spring. And, you know, you can't just go after like Mara Hoffman or, you know, like,

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Filip Valica: you have to find somebody that has credibility, but is not so a list that they're going to just not even respond. Or if they do, laugh and say no. Nothing against Amanda, but she was approachable.

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Filip Valica: I know. No, no, no. I mean, she wasn't, though, because we make jokes about it. And I was just like, you know, I basically stalked you. Like, it just sounds kind of silly.

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Kelsey Duffy: But, no, I couldn't be happier working with her. And so far, just the pictures and everything. We just did a show in Carousel, actually, the International Swim Week event. And that was our

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Filip Valica: first runway. It was kind of the big introduction for the new collaboration collection. We've got some great pictures that should be on the new website in the next day.

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Filip Valica: That's very exciting. Plus, you get to use her name and your marketing and advertising. So it's not only her abilities as a designer, but her brand, I guess, that you could say that you're partnering with. So it's helping both of you. There's a lot of brand credibility.

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Filip Valica: She actually just got her collection. She did a men's tie collection that got picked up in him and Marcus.

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Filip Valica: And she's got some of her pieces going into Nordstrom soon. It's just great to have somebody else in the industry that you can kind of bounce ideas, share resources, related. I've been working on this project on my own for a long time, and it's very refreshing to be

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Filip Valica: able to have somebody that can guide you and mentor you, and that just makes the circle that much more solid. So you said you've been working on it for a long time?

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Kelsey Duffy: Well, I mean, if you think about it, I started this in 2012 when I was working for Mick's Bikini.

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Filip Valica: And ever since you've been focused on this launch? Yeah, just sort of seeing this vision come to life. I've gotten some great support as far as, you know, manufacturing, the PR, some of the

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Kelsey Duffy: bigger companies and even some of the sharks themselves have been watching the progress. And it's just a very nerve-wracking feeling of you don't know who's watching you. But it's also really exciting because it could just explode in a good way.

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Kelsey Duffy: I hope so. Yeah, we're definitely ready. We're ready to push the button. I think I'm such a perfectionist at times that I'm like, oh, no, no, no, I don't want to show anybody this yet. And I couldn't be happier. I'm just like, let's go. Let's make it viral.

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Kelsey Duffy: So you've appeased your inner perfectionist? For today.

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Kelsey Duffy: And that's hard.

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Filip Valica: As an engineer, I get caught in that. The analysis paralysis is pretty strong for me. And whenever I partner with people, I prefer partnering with people that are on the creative

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Filip Valica: side or the idea side because I'm a huge implementer, researcher, data guy.

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Kelsey Duffy: And so have you noticed that at all in your partnership? Are you both opposites in a way or do you have the same kind of outlook? No, no, no. I think so. I think she definitely has more of the creative.

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Filip Valica: Absolutely. And I'm more of the business savvy. I'm kind of behind the scenes making it work, doing the communication as far as back and forth with the manufacturer or with the PR or

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Filip Valica: the marketing team or even just like the financial. What do they say? 10, 17 hats. I can't even keep up with it.

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Filip Valica: Well, and it's good that you're able to compliment each other and you're not budding heads in that way. So you said you found some manufacturers. Was that through Amanda or was that through your own contacts? How did you go about locating some?

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Filip Valica: somebody to make your line. Yeah, no, great question. Manufacturing is probably one of the most important parts that I think really makes or breaks you, especially in the retail industry.

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Filip Valica: And we've had our hiccups. You know, we've definitely wasted several thousands of dollars working with somebody who

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Kelsey Duffy: wasn't reputable enough or didn't get the proper instructions. You definitely fail and learn repeatedly until you get there. But we found, actually, we did a trade show years ago, and this was when I was still with Frank.

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Kelsey Duffy: And the Department of Trade for Pro Export, Columbia, was there. So they offered to have us come down and tour and look at factories and went down and met with a couple and found one woman in particular that I had a great relationship with.

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Kelsey Duffy: And ever since then, it's been great. I totally agree. I think trade shows are amazing. They're a huge return on investment for your time and money, I think. Even if you're not going to have a booth there,

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Kelsey Duffy: just getting a guest pass and you meet so many interesting people and make great contacts

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Filip Valica: and check out your competitors and there's all this awesome stuff that you can get done in two days i feel like my head's spinning just after whenever we get out of a trade show so that's cool that you you had the same experience on the other side of it i feel like it's really hard to make

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Filip Valica: some contacts in manufacturing in an industry if you're very new to it there's some marketplaces that exist for heavy industry that I know where manufacturers from all over the world can bid on your design. Is there something like that for fashion? Or is this basically a very much

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Filip Valica: a relationship business like you mentioned? That's another good point. I think you have to be so careful. You know, if you don't know where to start, you're going to get, you're, you know, you're going to Google something and probably end up in China. And we hear a lot of success stories,

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Filip Valica: don't we? So you have to be careful. And I think you do need connections. You know, I don't know if

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Kelsey Duffy: that was a stream of luck running into, you know, them. But, you know, as I mentioned, we had worked years ago in Mexico and placed an order that was not cheap. And the tops came back saying

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Kelsey Duffy: right. And they were supposed to say left and the left on the right. So they had crisscrossed that. And it was just a, oops, sorry.

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Kelsey Duffy: So, you know, and finding good quality and finding a good price and finding somebody who's going to cooperate and say, you know, I'm going to give this to you buy your deadline for your time. You're going to have reports going on of what's happening when you're under production.

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Filip Valica: No, I totally agree with all of that. I prefer to have a good personal relationship with my manufacturers, shake people's hand, look them in the eye, that type of thing, because you get a good feeling if someone's holding back on you or if they're not being truthful

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Filip Valica: with something. Plus, I feel if you lead with price or if you lead with that, whatever that one metric is, that's most important to you. That's the only thing the manufacturer is going to focus on and you might end up surprised in a bad way when you get something that doesn't meet your

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Filip Valica: quality standards because all you talked about was unit cost. I think the relationship is so important. I become actually quite close with our manufacturer. I consider them almost a family in a certain degree. You know, they've gotten me out of trouble.

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Kelsey Duffy: Even recently, I had a major emergency to get some sample work done before this Kurosau show. And I was having it done in the States and unfortunately that didn't work out.

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Kelsey Duffy: So I called her the next day I'm on a plane to Columbia and I'm literally biting my nails down to the very bottom. I'm like, there's no way they're going to get this done in time.

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Kelsey Duffy: Like we had like five or six days until the show and it was like 60 units or something and, you know, all the details and everything that go along with it.

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Filip Valica: And yeah, no problem. She had it early and they were perfect. And she's just like, I don't know why you were freaking out. And you should have called me earlier. Wow, that's great. Like you said, it's important to have somebody like that in your corner that you can trust. and I'm sure that you're going to end up using her for a long time just because of that.

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Filip Valica: So can you walk through what it takes to bring an item like that through manufacturing? So you said you had some samples made. So is it something like what you see on Project Runway where you see someone create a pattern?

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Filip Valica: They send the pattern off with some swatches or colors to a sample maker and then they create a low quantity or a sample line? Pretty much. Yeah, we'll develop a pattern and that kind of speaks for the shape of the silhouette of the garment.

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Kelsey Duffy: and then, you know, your fabric choice, if it's already printed, we print our own fabrics. They have to print and cut from that, and then they sew. So it's very similar to the sense that you get on Project Runway. And I feel now it seems like, oh, it's so easy.

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Filip Valica: But the first couple go-around, it's just like the smallest error. If something's wrong with the seam or, you know, the elastic isn't sewn into the center, it's off to the side or the hip is too high. And then it just goes on and on.

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Filip Valica: But once you get it perfect, it's pretty easy to duplicate. So how do you specify that for engineering or for parts?

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Filip Valica: We can be very detailed and we can go into a drawing and there's pages of specifications that you can call out that says this is exactly how I want it. How do you do that with fashion? Are there drawings for fashion or is it just a sample piece?

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Filip Valica: You know, this is kind of guilty of me to admit and, you know, hopefully it'll be beneficial to somebody else. But it's not so tactical in a sense. I mean, at the end of the day, I'm making a bikini, and there's thousands of different shapes that exist.

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Kelsey Duffy: So for me, in development, market research, I go into the stores and I see what's trending, you know, what the favorite is as far as the cut goes.

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Kelsey Duffy: And I may take one thing that I like from one outfit or one garment and one thing that I like from another top and kind of put ideas together. And that's what we did for this new goddess top that we're releasing.

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Kelsey Duffy: It's got like 32 something possible combinations of how you can tie it and interchange it. And it's just taking, you know, little bits and pieces from other things.

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Kelsey Duffy: And then at that point, I handed over to the designers and Amanda, and they would do more of the tactical measurements and pattern making and digitizing to get into the different sizes. It's really interesting for me because I don't really know how all that works behind the scenes.

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Kelsey Duffy: I was telling you before the show, I'll take my laptop to the living room and I'll watch Project Runway with my wife while I work.

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Filip Valica: And I'm not ashamed to admit that as a guy because I find it interesting. I think it's because fashion is so subjective and because I feel that I guess for me as a, as a technical person, I want to look for that common thread whenever people say,

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Kelsey Duffy: I really like this. What are they saying? What does it mean to have a well cut garment fits well, obviously? Or what does taste mean? To me, those are fascinating questions. And I

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Filip Valica: like to see whatever the top three are at the end of each show, because you could really see what the judges think and maybe even what the public would think if something were to come out. But then at the same time, I feel like to see. I like it's so subjective, do you really know? There is no answer, so to speak.

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Filip Valica: Yeah, it's essentially art at the end of the day, and it's, everybody is so different. And, you know, the styles and the genres keep changing, you know, with the new millennial crowds and the new younger designers that are coming out.

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Filip Valica: So it's interesting to watch and see what happens next. That must be very challenging, especially if you see new designers coming onto the scene. Is there a way that you feel like you're hedging your bet to say, you know, we're keeping a pulse

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Kelsey Duffy: on the new markets, is they're coming online? Yeah, they actually have trend forecasters, which sounds kind of silly if you think of like the weather for fashion, but people that will guesstimate what colors, what patterns,

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Filip Valica: what fabrics, you know, with mesh or fringe or chiffon, whatever it is for the seasons coming into that. So there's professional fashionistas out there that are deliberating what's making a comeback or what is out.

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Filip Valica: And I think a lot of us get that influence.

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Kelsey Duffy: from just the media and what we see on TV and the red carpet and the magazines, I think the public has a pretty good effort of keeping up with that fashion world.

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Filip Valica: I was going to say, I think you have a really tough time too because there's lead time associated with especially swimwear. There's probably a three or six month lag time between when you release your product and when you first think of something.

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Filip Valica: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it goes hand in hand with, you know, the folks that are doing the buying for the stores. They're looking around July or August for the following year. And it goes

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Kelsey Duffy: as well with the editorial, you know, any magazines or, you know, big print press. They're writing articles six months in advance easily for spring. Gosh, it's difficult. I'm glad I'm not in that

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Kelsey Duffy: market. So congratulations for navigating that. And there's a lot of competition. You know, I feel like it's such a just a trend setter thing or, you know, all the celebrities, they want to have their own

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Filip Valica: clothing line or accessory or swimwear and I don't want to term it as anything but there's a lot of noise to get out there and show that you have a quality product and so much competition and

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Filip Valica: you know just so many things being catered to this demographic of women from 15 to 30 we'll say there's a lot of stuff going on and I see that every time we I don't go to the mall at all I prefer

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Filip Valica: to do all my shopping online but every time I do go through the mall I feel it's just this barrage of messages that are telling me this is what's hot right now. This is what I should be wearing.

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Filip Valica: And if I was any kind of husband, this is what I would be buying my wife right now. And that's difficult as a consumer. But I guess on the upside is you have so many options. You know, it's interesting is now the, you know, the sales and the retail in the mall are,

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Filip Valica: you know, taking a dive and everything is done shopwise on the internet, especially off your cell phone.

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Kelsey Duffy: And we're starting to notice more and more of that in the swimmer world. and I'll give you just a really interesting statistic of one of my competitions. I won't say any names.

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Filip Valica: But there's an Australian-based swimwear brand that started in 2012.

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Filip Valica: And they are not in any department stores. They do not sell on Amazon. They're in no boutiques. They strictly sell on their website. And what they did was they did these massive social media campaigns with, you know,

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Filip Valica: like Kendall Jenner's and, you know, celebrity, A-list celebrities.

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Kelsey Duffy: And in their second year of business, they were at somewhere around $2 million in sales. And then their third year, last year, they projected 60 million in sales. Wow. Yeah.

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Kelsey Duffy: So as an owner, you're basically taking ownership of the relationship with your customer and with your audience and not risking it to some retail store to translate that for you. Exactly. Yeah. They

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Kelsey Duffy: kind of make it a little bit more of an exclusivity. And coincidentally, all these other brands started making their knockoff versions and selling those, you know, very cheaply. That looks similar to their

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Kelsey Duffy: designs. But the fact if you have an original piece from this brand, it's the coolest thing for this season right now. That's good that you say that, that even knockoff competitors

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Filip Valica: are unable to get, I mean, you're always going to have copycats in your industry. I feel design and fashion is probably the hardest to compete against because anybody can make something

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Filip Valica: look pretty similar, but it might not have the same materials or the same quality or the same customer service is attached to it.

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Filip Valica: So. Yeah.

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Filip Valica: Yeah, the knockoff epidemic.

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Filip Valica: That's an interesting challenge. But that's very cool also because it's an opportunity for you to have that relationship directly with your audience. And I feel people now are more interested in doing that.

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Kelsey Duffy: They're more curious about where their products come from. They want to have that relationship with the designer of their bikini.

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Filip Valica: The conversation that we're having right now is way more personable that anybody could have with a major name. Yeah, absolutely. You know, you have to think of it from a business

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Filip Valica: standpoint. Do I want to just sell my brand to anybody? You know, let's say Bob calls from Timbuktu and he wants to buy like 3,000 units. Well, who are you? And what are you planning to do with them?

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Filip Valica: Because, you know, there's that chance that they could really hurt your brand. So you want to make sure that you keep that reputable aspect of yourself and, you know, hold your identity strong because you don't really have a chance for error.

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Filip Valica: If you get a bad call from somebody in a different country,

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Kelsey Duffy: it could really hurt you. That's interesting that you bring that up. So have you turned down business or have you had an option to turn down business yet? It's hard to say. I have done some business as far as, you know, in the Middle East and Kuwait where there's a nice boutique.

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Kelsey Duffy: Sure, no problem. But getting into, you know, and that goes to another conversation of maybe it would be better having a face-to-face conversation.

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Kelsey Duffy: But if you're talking to a distributor that's somewhere in China that wants to essentially partner up with you and really hit off sales, you don't want to turn that down because that could be a massive income.

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Kelsey Duffy: And I don't have any sales markets at this time in Asia, in the Asian market.

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Filip Valica: So I feel like I don't want to miss out on any kind of money opportunity. However, I think it's really important that it stays true to your brand and it's not put in the wrong hands. Absolutely. Because once you lose contact with those 3,000 units and they're off doing their own thing,

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Filip Valica: I work for some companies that had some copycat products made from their line, and we received some product support calls. And because they were so well copied, they even had our own part numbers and our own contact information. Everything was on there.

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Filip Valica: It just wasn't our product. And it was built a lower quality. So we were getting a lot of customer support. And it was infuriating, but you've basically lost control of it now because, you're We were working with dozens of manufacturers, any one of them could have leaked the design

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Filip Valica: or could be making it on the side, and it wasn't our brand anymore. Yeah, I think you have to be really careful.

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Kelsey Duffy: I was actually just reading something on BuzzFeed this morning. And, you know, there's all these websites that women are shopping at. Your wife may be familiar where, you know, you can buy a top for $7 and it's cute, it's fashionable. You can get a whole outfit for, you know, $20 dress.

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Kelsey Duffy: And they're posting pictures on the news that the tops and items of clothing that they're receiving look absolutely nothing like the pictures that they're seeing online.

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Kelsey Duffy: Yeah, that's terrible.

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Filip Valica: So it's kind of hurting, you know, the credibility to purchase online when it's so convenient. So I think girls are starting to become, you know, more trusting to the brands.

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Filip Valica: I think that personally, if I'm going to buy something from a design point, I'm not only going to look on their website, I'm probably going to check them out on Instagram, look at their social media accounts, you know, see what other feedback is about it before I buy it.

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Filip Valica: Because return policies can be temperamental. You know, you could end up losing 40 bucks, sending something back. That's very true. You talked about trends where you said that you have to always stay on top of trends,

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Filip Valica: basically stay plugged into what some of the forecasters are saying with trends. I know one of the latest trends you mentioned was the physique of swimwear models changing. I know just recently in the news, there was a Victoria Secret model that got dropped from her contract,

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Filip Valica: and she ended up being very successful doing her own line. Can you talk a little bit about that? Has that affected your business at all? Yeah, yeah, it has. And, you know, I think it's great. I think that we're getting away from that stereotype that just to wear a bikini or a

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Filip Valica: swimsuit, you need to be a size two.

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Kelsey Duffy: And I think that creating the plus size or something a little bit more supportive or whatever the case may be, we get a lot of requests for that. And that's something that I really certainly want to venture into.

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Kelsey Duffy: From my perspective, there's costs on top of adding into new sizes.

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Filip Valica: So it's kind of one of those things I have to explain to people that we're not. going to be that brand that only caters to a size two. We just have to go through step A to step B.

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Filip Valica: But what to what you said with the Sports Illustrated, I think Ashley Graham, she was the first plus size model that grace the cover earlier this year. And there was a little bit of scoundrel

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Filip Valica: or people saying some nasty things about it. But from a marketing perspective, I think it's a wonderful opportunity. And I think that it's great to encourage girls no matter your size,

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Filip Valica: your shape, you know, if you're tall, whatever your case is, you can certainly wear a swimsuit

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Kelsey Duffy: and you're beautiful and you should. And so you touched on a little bit of that where it makes it a little bit more complicated for you as a manufacturer or supplier brand because now you're having to create so many

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Filip Valica: variations on your product. And I guess you said that you have to look for the demand first. Is there a way that you're measuring that? Well, the demand is there. I mean, there's certainly been requests.

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Filip Valica: or even, you know, even suggestions or, you know, oh, I think you guys need to come out with this,

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Kelsey Duffy: this and this. And I would love to, you know, that's definitely on, you know, the top five next things to move forward with. But there's a lot of costs involving that. The cost as far as, you know,

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Kelsey Duffy: just creating a new size. Right now we're just doing small, medium, and large to get to an extra large, that's a whole new silhouette that we have to cut, which isn't terrible. But it's kind of like

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Filip Valica: perfecting what you have before moving on to the next. I would say. Is there a point where you feel like, okay, now we know that we've gotten so much feedback that we have to release something before someone else does? Or are you just going to release whenever you feel

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Filip Valica: like you're ready? I feel like whenever we're ready, you know, we'll definitely do that. And there's other things that go alongside. It'd be the junior swimwear line, you know, like the mommy and me is very

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Filip Valica: popular to making suits for toddlers. So I would love to just incorporate all aspects, any kind of creative way to get to a different clientele. Absolutely. We'll do that. That's just sounds so

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Filip Valica: challenging to me because there's so many avenues that you could go down, especially as a small business owner. You only have so much focus in a day. We just talked about two or three markets that

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Kelsey Duffy: you could get into. It just seems so daunting to decide what you work on next without any type of team. I mean, actually, can you talk a little bit about that? What kind of team do you have that supports you? Sure. I have four great interns, love them all dearly. And, uh,

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Filip Valica: hopefully to hire them full-time one of these days. And we have our CMO, CTO, his name's Jeremy Witt. He comes from New York City. He's also based in Kansas City.

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Filip Valica: And he is the guy that is my creative sidekick, anything web material, print. He's honestly like my backbone, things from business coaching to financial planning, investment presentations, performas.

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Filip Valica: Yeah, the list goes on and on. She could get a clone of him.

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Filip Valica: that's kind of it as far as direct team everything else i would say is outsourced for the most i do work with amanda frequently and uh work closely with her team as far as you know

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Filip Valica: photo shoots or things here and there we do work together that's very exciting it seems like you're able to accomplish a lot with a relatively small team if you you know we'll have a link to your website in the show notes you said you want to have a new website to show everybody can you

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Filip Valica: talk a little about what's coming up with that and what the changes are really excited actually

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Kelsey Duffy: So we're developing something very special,

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Kelsey Duffy: and it's an interface that's interactive on the shop page. So Victoria's Secret has a similar version. It's a plug-in, and essentially it goes through all the possible tops and bottoms that they offer in the different sizes,

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Kelsey Duffy: so you can kind of slide them around. And what we're doing is a swipe system. So you'll be able to see all the configurations of the tops, and then you can kind of try it on yourself. essentially the girls will be able to pick their bottom, pick the top, see the different ways that

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Kelsey Duffy: the top works. And I think the explanation of it, you know, we're not just a swimsuit. There's a creative aspect of it. And teaching our consumers has been the hardest challenge, you know,

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Filip Valica: getting them to understand that this top is innovative. You can literally disconnect it and grab a different top and put those two together. There's no wrong way to wear it. So that will definitely

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Filip Valica: help having that shop shop system sort of explain how versacini works i think you hit on a very important

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Filip Valica: point many of the companies that i've worked at even as a technical lead we had partial responsibility to training the customer or teaching the customer and i think a lot of companies that that maybe

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Filip Valica: they fail at that because it's something that's so obvious to them because you're you see it it's in front of you for the last two or three years you've been working on it it's obvious to you but for a customer or for someone that's new, they're not aware of it.

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Filip Valica: How much time do you have to spend in order to educate somebody so they really fully understand the benefits of your product? Have you done any type of experiments or tests? Or how did you get that feedback to say, you know what?

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Kelsey Duffy: We're not educating our customer enough. I think that's huge. Yeah. I mean, it's very plain to say for our product, I have to say, because I can just get that feedback from friends and family. you know, you need to explain it. And the more, the better. So what we're doing,

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Kelsey Duffy: when you do purchase a Versakini, we have a custom tag that comes on the swimsuit. And it's kind of like an instructional, if you will, and it'll show you all the different

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Filip Valica: variations. And we're going to have some links on the website to some videos on YouTube where you can watch a short, you know, how it works video. But I really think that these

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Kelsey Duffy: images, you know, they're kind of like quick rotating GIF images. And they'll, you know, they'll flash from the different ways because you can wear it as a bando. You can criss cross, you know,

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Kelsey Duffy: under your ribs or above your neck like a halter top, there's multiple combinations that you can tie this. So I think the thing is, is if you go onto a website, you don't have that much time

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Filip Valica: to capture your audience's attention. So we need to do this as quick as possible. So what are we going to be able to do that in like five to 10 seconds, people will get it and they'll be like, oh, cool.

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Filip Valica: So that was the biggest question. Right. You want to go to that aha moment as fast as you can because and I've noticed that on my side as well as if you can't convey that message in

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Filip Valica: less than 10 15 seconds you're done people browse to something else their attention span is really short I heard on the radio the other day that we have a attention span now that's

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Filip Valica: less than a goldfish that I think ranks at nine seconds yeah I could I could certainly see it and you know it goes for loading times too if you're going on to the website and it's not loading quick enough. I'm off. I'm out.

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Kelsey Duffy: Well, thank you very much for coming on the show. I definitely wanted to cover some tips that you can give other people that are going through the industry and then a place for people to find you. So is there anything, any type of tool or book that you're

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Filip Valica: reading that you feel like has really helped you on your journey that you'd recommend to other people? Yeah. Actually, I just finished reading The Power of Broke, which is Damon John's book, and it is a must read. I mean, you know, the quotes in there, I literally, I read the

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Filip Valica: book and I got out my highlighter and just, you know, went kind of crazy on all these things that I love that he says in there. So if you think, oh, I can't do it, you really can. And it seems so

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Filip Valica: hard, but it's so rewarding once you kind of see the process fall along of it. So the power broke definitely and the lean startup by Eric Rees. That's another great one that just kind of gets you

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Kelsey Duffy: the basics. And I think that most importantly, sometimes when you're in these beginning phases, is you need to see what other people have done and read their stories and hear their successes and their failures and take that all into account to really be able to be the best that you can be.

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Filip Valica: Well, that's excellent advice. Do you have any other tips or someone's going through this process? They have their own product idea. They're going to market. It might be a fashion product and they just, they get stuck and they don't know if they can move forward. What would you say to that person?

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Filip Valica: Yeah, it's tough. You know, I've been going out this for four years and I think anybody, else probably would have quit by now, but you really need to look at your obstacles like

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Kelsey Duffy: an opportunity and realize that, okay, you know, this is really hard. I don't know if I can survive this.

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Kelsey Duffy: You really have to kind of persevere and keep your head up and don't even think about it. You know, just be so focused that there is no question. You will not, you will not stop. You will not fail.

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Kelsey Duffy: And your attitude is a huge part of that. You know, you can see that in a person's body language. You can hear it in their voice. If they have passion for something, you know, as an investor, I think that you will stand so much taller if you're passionate about your product.

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Kelsey Duffy: Thank you very much for coming on the show, Kelsey. Where can people find you if they have any questions and what should they be looking out for that's coming up in the next couple months if you've got any new products that are coming out that you really want people to check out?

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Kelsey Duffy: Yes. The website is versikini.com. And you can find us also on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, Pinterest and Snapchat.

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Kelsey Duffy: We've got some new pieces coming out, which will probably launch at the end of the summer. That'll be for spring summer 2017.

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Kelsey Duffy: And we'll have some sneak peeks of that from the Miami Swim Show, which is the grand event of the year. So just stay tuned.

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Kelsey Duffy: Great. Well, thanks again. Thank you very much for coming on the show. It was my pleasure. It was awesome to hear you talk. Thank you for being so transparent with everything. Very interesting for me. And I'm sure everybody in the audience got a lot out of it. So thank you. Well, thank you so much, Philip.

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Kelsey Duffy: And that concludes today's episode. Thanks for listening. I put all the links that we've covered on the show notes posted on the product startup.com slash episode six.

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Kelsey Duffy: Recently, I had the chance to listen to the Curious Minds podcast. It's well-produced and I think it mixes the interview style with great background music and audio set to content. It actually reminds me of this American life, if you've ever heard that on NPR.

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Kelsey Duffy: It mixes history, storytelling, and science, and explains technical,

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Filip Valica: concepts and simple terms, and I think it's approachable for listeners of all ages.

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Filip Valica: The last episode I listened to talked about reconstructing an ancient language used over 4,000 years ago. Where did Sanskrit, Farsi, Greek, and Latin come from? I was surprised to learn that a part of the answer is related to Grimm's fairy tales. Reverse engineering this ancient

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Filip Valica: language from modern existing words was possible using rules based on sound shifts. So at some point, speakers started to pronounce the same word differently. These shifts are responsible for the difference in languages, much like we have regional dialects now.

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Filip Valica: So by identifying what changed, we could see what the original language looked like. A link to this episode and to the Curious Minds podcast is in the show notes. And you can also find more information at cmpod.net.

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Filip Valica: If you like this episode and you want to see more like it, or if you want to see something different, please leave me a review on iTunes by going to the product startup.com slash review. I really appreciate your support and I read all the comments and questions and I try to

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Filip Valica: incorporate them into future episodes. Reviews also help me get guests on the show. I'll see you in two weeks. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Product Startup podcast with your host, Philip

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Filip Valica: Valisa. For more great content and to stay up to date, visit theproductstartup.com.

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Filip Valica: Your guide to getting there.

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Filip Valica: Thanks for tuning in to this episode of the Product Startup podcast, the show that teaches you what it really takes to bring your product to market and turn it into a big success. This podcast series is brought to you by Mako Design + Invent, the first firm in North

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Filip Valica: America to provide global caliber end-to-end physical consumer product development to startups, inventors, and small product businesses. If you're looking for product development help on your

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Filip Valica: invention, head over to Mako-design.com. That's m-a-k-o-design.com for a free consultation from one of Mako-design for design studios from coast to coast. Thanks for listening, and see you. See you next time.