I do agree with your statement though, that SaaS has had as big of

an impact to IT as virtualization.

Right.

But you are correct.

there are some,

Oh my gosh.

Hold on.

wait, listeners.

I want listeners to know this is probably 140 some episodes in,

Curtis just said I was correct.

Hey, even a broken clock is right twice a day.

I'm just saying,

Hi, and welcome to Backup Central's Restore it All podcast.

I'm your host, W.

Curtis Preston, AKA Mr.

Backup.

And I have with me, a guy that knows way too much about baffles and how

they relate to both air filtration And oil filtration, Prasanna Malaiyandi.

And do you know where I learned all this knowledge from

I'm going to, I'm just going to go on a limb and say youtube.

Bing bing bing bing bing, yes.

That is correct,

Here I am having this discussion with you about, but, dust separation,

dust collection, and when you have a dust collector, the first thing you

gotta do is put this like separator thing that gets the big stuff out

of the way, and they call it a baffle or there's a cyclone thing.

And I started talking to you and you're like, oh, that reminds me of this baffle

thing and the engine, and I'm like, what no world are you talking about?

Yeah, because when you run high horsepower cars, and if you don't have

a way to vent the crankcase pressure, then it'll cause your head gasket...

I hate it when don't have enough way to vent my crankcase pressure.

And so what they do is they basically drill a hole into the valve cover.

They attach a hose and before the hose, there's a bunch of baffles because the

last thing you want is engine oil, leaving the engine and going down this tub.

That would be bad.

Yeah.

And then it goes down the tube into what they call a catch can, which

basically separates out the liquids fall to the bottom, and then the

rest of the vapors and everything else has vented out the top.

And so that relieves the pressure of the engine.

So it's almost the exact same thing as what you have.

You need a mechanism to be able separate out, particles, from the air.

Then this is doing thing.

Separating out liquid from the air.

And instead of returning the oil to the engine, I'm putting the

wood particles down in a trash can.

Yes, that is true.

there's two things.

One is they'll separate out the liquids in the catch can, and then

you dumped the catch can periodically.

Oh, you just dump it.

Okay.

Gotcha.

again, same thing.

Yep.

Exactly.

That's the waste that you dump.

And the air that they're venting.

in my case, the air is being vented to the actual, the dust collector itself

that I've been informed is not a vacuum.

it is a, an impeller and It pushes air.

It doesn't pull air.

I don't know what the difference is, but, know,

It pushes air.

That's what I've been told.

It's not a vacuum, you put a hose on the front of it.

It's going to suck.

So it's got to really suck and that's its job.

The stuff I'm researching lately due to my little woodworking project,

I don't know what to tell you, but we're not here to talk about that.

Can we just talk about that instead?

Yeah.

We could talk about that clearly for a while.

yeah.

I have a list by the way, I've created a list of tasks in my house of stuff.

I need to go do this evening.

Little stuff that I need to do that have nothing to do with that project.

because I've been so obsessed with that project, one of them is

changing the air filter in my heater.

That's

I gotta, I gotta put the cover back on my barbecue.

You can't put the cover on right away.

Cause it's hot.

And then I forget, I got to do that.

I got to change the light bulbs in the bathroom, and I got to replace

the batteries in the smoke detector.

I'm glad everybody understands.

This is what's going on in my life.

This is what I'm doing.

As soon as this is done, as I'm doing those menial tasks, because

here's a question for you, because I tend to know random things about random things.

how old are you smoke detectors?

they're pretty new.

They're like a year.

You bought them within a year, but you bought them as battery ones

because I thought in California, they're not allowed to sell without

. It's battery backup.

Okay.

Are you done?

Judgy man, judging, McJudgyface?

I just wanted to clarify, because my next question would be if your smoke detector

was old enough to only require batteries, then I'd say you should probably replace.

Yeah.

I've actually changed the smoke detectors in his house a couple of times.

one when I just felt that they just had way too many false alarms and

especially in a world where now all the smoke detectors are connected.

And so when one goes off, they all go off.

And then my, my poor little granddaughter is very upset.

She doesn't like it when something screams at her ear at

three o'clock in the morning.

Yeah.

That's no fun.

no fun.

So speaking of

are we going to talk

...? Talking about backup, backup,

I thought we could talk about this world of SAS and I'm just going to, first

I'll put out my disclaimer, I work for Druva, which is a SAS based backup

company in case you don't know that.

And Prasanna works for Zoom, which is a SAS.

Unified communication

as a service.

Yeah.

UCAS.

so we're all about, we're all, we're very sassy over here, but this is

not a podcast of either company.

The opinions that you hear are ours.

And, and by the way, if you think I'm full of it, if you, after you listened

to this podcast, if you think I'm full of it, I really want you to come on and

I want you to tell me why I'm full of it.

I'm happy to have you on,

Oh,

your name is Stuart.

If your name is Stuart, you're not coming on.

Just saying

Stuart, reach out to me.

I'll schedule you in.

Stuart's getting a lot of call outs lately.

I got to finish my disclaimer.

Yes.

and so the opinions that you hear are ours, please rate us

at ratethispodcast.com/restore.

If you're listening to us on apple podcasts, just scroll down to the bottom,

give us some stars, make a comment.

It will make my day.

You put in it, you actually put in an actual text review that will

make my day so cool to hear people actually say nice things about us.

And then, like I said, if you think that one of us or both of us are

full of it, when we talk about

Curtis

Yeah.

Then the day, then come on the show and tell us otherwise we, we

promise not to yell at you much.

And, and that's all we have.

So let's get talking about this.

I'm going to say that the world of SAS has transformed the face

of IT as much, if not more than virtualization, what do you think?

So two questions...

always two.

The first is we should define what SaaS is, because SAS can mean

different things for different people.

sass only means one thing, but different people think differently.

So that's a good point.

Yeah.

The second question is your statement you made that SaaS had has a bigger

impact than virtualization, right?

Is

that correct on it?

I think I might've said as, as big, if not more, as I think is what I said, but.

I almost want to say yes, but I believe that the cloud has had a bigger impact

on it than either of the prior 2.

So the cloud includes SAS in my view

view But SAS is not necessarily well, SAS, if you're SAS,

you're going to be cloud, but.

And virtualization cloud is virtualization

Virtualization was a step to the cloud, Server virtualization.

Yep.

But yeah, Yeah, we could have a separate podcast where we just argue on that, but

but no, I do agree with your statement though, that SaaS has had as big of

an impact to IT as virtualization.

Right.

But you are correct.

there are some,

Oh my gosh.

Hold on.

wait, listeners.

I want listeners to know this is probably 140 some episodes in,

Curtis just said I was correct.

Hey, even a broken clock is right twice a day.

I'm just saying, so unless you're in Europe, in which case

it's 24-hour o'clock, it's only right once a day, whatever.

Anyway, so

So the first point about SaaS

yeah, so I think that is a really good point to make.

And because there are like, I can think of one really big company,

#Adobe who uses the term SAS.

very incorrectly.

So let me define something else before I define SaaS I'm going to

define subscription-based pricing.

I would like to use this software

product - Adobe Illustrator - some software product like that.

You're going to run on your laptop or a server or a desktop

in your physical environment.

I don't want to pay a thousand dollars for it right now, but what I am willing

to Do is to pay $50 a month forever.

And I will get the updated versions of that software as they come out with it.

As they come out with Adobe illustrator, 12.0, I will get the latest and greatest?

but I need to download that software and re-install it so that I can

upgrade my local installation.

I'm running the software on my hardware.

That is the key.

I'm either running it on my hardware arm, running it on hardware that I'm renting.

So you can download Oracle and put Oracle in a server in AWS or Azure or

GCP that, and you could pay Oracle.

A thousand dollars a month per server, by the way, I literally

have no idea what Oracle costs.

I just made up a number.

It's probably more than

It's more than that,

Yeah.

So you

but you're,

bucks a month.

but you're managing the hardware that

You're managing the operating,

Yep.

you're managing the operating system as well.

And in addition to installing the application,

the only thing you're doing is you're paying for it differently.

That is different.

That is not SAS.

This is one of these Curtis obsesses over the meaning of words

No.

It's important though, because I think a lot of people do get it confused.

It is true.

A lot of people, including competitors of Druva that refer to their subscription

based pricing as SAS, they are wrong.

That is not SAS.

It sounds like it's software as a service.

No, it's subscription-based pricing.

That's all it is.

You're just paying for it differently.

That's all.

It is nothing about the software has changed.

Okay, that's subscription-based pricing.

Then there is SAS and SAS is to me, super easy to define

it's everything we just didn't.

We didn't just define.

And that is you do not, it is not running on your hardware.

You are not responsible for the application behind the thing you're doing.

You're only responsible for telling the application to

do what it is supposed to do.

And my example would be Microsoft 365.

If you don't understand the difference between Exchange and paying for

Exchange a thousand dollars a month.

And by the way, in Curtis world, everything costs a

thousand dollars a month.

Except for a Tesla, which I recently found out costs more than that, but a thousand

dollars a month for Exchange, that's running on your server and Microsoft 365,

where you're paying five bucks a user times, however many users you're using.

We're using a SAS app right now To

To do this podcast

To record this podcast ? You work for a company that has a SAS app that

allows people to communicate together.

I work for a company that has a SAS app that, that allows people to back

up data from all over the place.

that's a SAS app where I think the number one thing is that you are not responsible

for managing any of the infrastructure.

Yup.

Yup.

And you're not managing the application either.

Like you're not installing updates for the application, so that's why not

That is really important.

You're not updates.

The infrastructure.

You just are using it.

You always get the latest and greatest.

You don't have to worry about anything.

And I would argue that a proper SAS application that consumes

storage and let's face it.

They all consume storage.

You also are not worried about that storage.

You are not managing volumes.

You're not worried about the fact, oh, I created this 10 terabyte file system

and I'm getting close to filling it up.

I need to go make another one or expand the one I have if you're doing anything

that seems like that, that's not SAS.

Yep.

Capacity management, all that stuff.

Now I know there will be people who say by the way, even with some of

the SAS companies, I still install a piece of software on my laptop.

Doesn't that make it not SAS?

And I argue that is not yes, you do install a piece, but depending on

how the SAS application is and other pieces like the core functionality,

you are not managing at all.

Right.

Well, to go back to your G suite, analogy, G suite is clearly SAS, but

you can put a G drive syncing piece on your laptop and synchronize G drive to

your laptop that doesn't make G drive, not SAS, the core infrastructure.

It's the infrastructure.

Cause that's where all the pain is.

I would also argue a good SAS product should help you upgrade that thing.

That's running on your laptop automatically, right?

You should not be having to manage that.

To manually.

Yup.

Does that seem?

I think that seems like a good definition for SaaS.

Yeah.

If you can't see the difference between exchange on-prem and Microsoft 365, I,

they are two very different products and, and clearly some of Druva's

competitors don't see It that way.

And I mentioned Adobe, CEO of Adobe, like a year or so ago, it could have

been two years we're in COVID times it could have been 17 years ago.

It all blends together.

it does.

But he said that Adobe was going to be a hundred percent SAS by,

and he gave like 2025 or something.

And I'm like, but you're not any SAS at this point.

And that's when I realized what he means is a hundred percent subscription pricing.

Because you're not going to do Adobe premier pro in a

In the cloud.

maybe you could maybe, I don't want to rule it out, but it's just

that, for example, with premiere pro, you've got, it's all the,

it's all that raw video data,

Yeah.

I don't think you could process it fast enough in a web browser to be able to

the processing would happened back there.

But you got to send all the data

. to send all the raw data.

up to the cloud before you could do anything.

And there are some apps I think, to do that, but I think what

he means is subscription based pricing, which, and I think they've

transitioned to it for the most part.

I don't think you could buy perpetual licenses of Adobe at this point

I think everything's all Creative Suite, yeah.

It's all subscription, but I think this is the problem though, is

people have adopted or stolen, right?

The term SaaS to show that they are modern and that's what everyone else wants.

And so for a lot of these companies who don't have a SAS solution or can't get

to a SAS solution because of technology or other issues, They're like, oh

yeah, we'll call it SaaS, but we're really subscription-based pricing.

Which is just one element typically of SaaS.

It's not the only element, but it's one of the important elements of SaaS.

I would say

So what was your second question?

we already covered it.

That was around weather cloud was bigger than SaaS.

Oh yeah.

Okay.

The reason why

After that tangent.

Yeah, but I, what I want to talk about is that Druva's SAS based data protection.

We're not the only ones, but I want to talk about this idea

of using what I'm going to call a traditional on-prem product.

Now I'm including a newer, traditional on-prem products, right?

They wouldn't, they do not consider themselves traditional.

I don't consider themselves traditional.

But this is an on-prem product that backs up stuff.

Right.

What I don't understand is the concept of using an on-prem backup architecture

to back up things that are in the cloud,

Yeah,

specifically SAS- based systems and native workloads.

it does seem a little backwards, but I think here's my take on it.

So yes, your application is running in the cloud.

Now you have a couple options, right?

You could say, okay, I'm going to dump it to the same cloud.

I'm going to put it in some other cloud.

Some customers are like, Hey, I already have a bunch of

infrastructure running on prem.

Let me just dump it to that.

So it sits locally, right?

And so it's in some other place that they can at least control.

So they have control of that data versus something being in the cloud, which

they may not always have controls over.

Right.

It could be one argument, another argument.

And this is the one that I think falls apart is: okay, I have it

locally in case, say, something happens to the cloud service, say

something happens to Microsoft 365 and I can't get access to my mailbox.

If I have the local copy on premises, I can spin it up.

I can restore it or create a PST.

I can download that PST onto a laptop.

I could load it.

I can get access to that critical deck that I need to.

and I would say that's the argument for a separate backup system, but

I don't see that as an argument for an on-prem backup system.

I agree.

what don't that gives you versus the other.

There are people that, and by that, literally they want

to touchy, feely the backup.

they want it in their hot little hands.

They want to see it.

I'm sure you have a tape drive somewhere behind you, Curtis.

The cloud is this, there's a line, I know you've never seen it, but there's a

show called never have I ever on Netflix.

And it's a teenage girl and the mom, there's a line in there where the teenage

girl says, you won't pay for the cloud.

And she's I refuse to pay for something that I can't see.

it's a pretty good line in the show, but I think there are some who

they've gone along with the cloud because it's really hard to argue

about 365 versus on prem exchange.

Once you've experienced one, it's really hard to experience

the other, but still, have

which is

school way thinking.

Because they've accepted the cloud, but they still want to touchy feelly.

They have accepted it in the same way that I have accepted that I am going to die.

At some point they know it's going to happen.

Death, taxes, and the cloud that we're adding the cloud to the list

of things that are going to happen.

They've accepted it.

They haven't taken it into their hearts.

They just know there's no way

They're no longer in denial.

No They just know it's going to happen and that there's just, they're

like fine, but I want a copy of that stuff in my hot little hands.

, there are some that just think that, every time anything goes wrong in the

cloud, they're just, I told you, so there's, the problem with the cloud

Because when everything blows up, you'll come crawling to

me and I will be the hero.

Yeah.

exactly.

For that person, there's literally nothing that I can say.

they probably hung up 10 minutes ago.

They're like, oh, he's going to talk SAS.

I'm outta here.

I'm going to go hold onto my

Here's another argument that I've heard as well, which is for

compliance or regulatory reasons.

We might need to keep a copy on premises, or we cannot

have the copy leave the cloud.

And be replicated to another copy in the cloud.

I'm going to make a broad sweeping statement, but I'm going to say that I'm

sure there's a caveat that I don't know.

I will say this .In my experience, which is extensive.

Every time I've heard that there was a regulatory requirement that

we have to have this or that.

Stuff like this, where we have to have a copy on tape, or we have to

have a copy on-prem I've never been able to be pointed at the actual

regulation that they're talking about.

In other words, I think a lot of them are just made up regulations.

know that there are data sovereignty rules,

. Yes.

And that's the one.

Like I could

but not the same as what we're talking about here.

Yeah, but I could imagine a case like a bank in Germany might say, look, we

can use Microsoft 365 because maybe they have a presence in Germany, but

if they needed to replicate the data, maybe Microsoft doesn't have a, another

region or data center inside of Germany.

And therefore we have to manually do something.

Now, I don't know if that's a true scenario or not.

I don't know where Microsoft has deployed their Microsoft 365 regions, but I could

imagine a scenario like that in some countries where, because of the rules and

regulations, they to do certain things.

Data sovereignty would be a valid complaint.

Germany is a great example.

If you're using 365 and it runs in Germany and you're considering a SAS

based backup service, and it runs in the US and it only runs in the US.

That would be a dumb idea.

First off, that would just be a dumb design.

Second.

It would not meet your data sovereignty requirements.

So you definitely have to honor the data sovereignty requirements.

But

That doesn't mean you have to go on premises

it just means don't pick that product that doesn't have.

what's the word nexus within the requirements that you, need.

That's a valid thing

but that's probably like a 3% of the time situation where 97%

of the time, you shouldn't have to worry about things like that.

I can remember, for example, I was at a large, household

name, pharmaceutical company.

And I remember there was this person who was dictating the design.

Like we have to make three tapes every Thursday and they have to

put on the left side of the desk.

I'm just Coming up with something here.

And I was like, why are you doing that?

That's hurting your design?

And she's because of regulations.

It's not my first pharma company.

I don't know what you're talking about.

And then she goes help me out, Steve.

She said to this other guy, there's a regulation that says we have to do that.

And he says Nope.

So I'm just saying, I've seen this where time and time again, people say

they're supposed to be doing something because of regulations and it turns

out they weren't actually regulations.

But if you do indeed have a regulation that says you have to have something

on prem, first off, that regulation probably needs to be rewritten,

because that was probably written 30 years ago before the cloud

Or at least, or you might have a very different interpretation of

what the regulation really means.

And you should go talk to your compliance team about that.

Yes, we are not giving legal advice.

Yes,

So I want to go so you're doing a pretty good job of playing devil's advocate

I try.

I try.

That's why me around.

Well you are the devil.

so, and

I do have a beard.

I'm saying, look at me.

What do you think It's not nearly as long as yours,

It's looking good.

It's starting to fell in better.

It's because Mrs.

Preston asked for a beard, saw this photo of me, where I had a beard

once and she thought it looked good.

And so she told me to grow it out, but I am under specific instructions

to not grow it out like yours.

Come on Curtis.

Just do it.

Do it just wait two years.

There will be no "yeard" in this house and there will certainly not be a "tweard".

How close are you to your tweard?

two years will be in, I think, two weeks.

I just can't.

We should have a party.

I'll bring my sheers over.

so what I want to say is to talk about the things you have to do.

If you're going to use an on-prem system.

To back up a cloud-based resource.

So assuming, what it is you want, that you have 365, you have Salesforce, you

know that you have AWS or Azure or GCP.

The first thing you have to do is you have to size that environment.

And while that's a perfectly normal thing to do in the data center, not a perfectly

normal thing to do in the SAS world.

How big is my thing?

it's 350 users, right?

How many gigabytes is that?

Right?

Why do you care??

Why do you care?

because I'm about to go design a backup system.

And that's the first number that I need.

You need that number.

You also need the daily change number.

You are never going to get that number.

That is literally not in anybody's database anywhere.

The only way you're going to find that number out is to back up the system

and then back it up again and see what the number is every day, which

means that the two numbers that you need to design a decent backup system,

you might be able to get one of them.

There's no way you're getting the second one.

Yep.

And so right off you're handicapped,

Yep.

And then what are you going to deal with in terms of like the growth, because

another thing you're also going to have to plan for your infrastructure because

you want to plan a bit ahead, so sure you have users and you have the change

rate, but what does growth look like?

And remember, this is the same reasons that you went to 365,

they apply on your backup system.

It's a pain to administer an on-prem system.

Maybe you're buying a more modern system and it has a scale out architecture

and it's easy to add capacity to it.

Have you tried adding capacity during the pandemic?

in COVID times Curtis?

What Yeah.

I wasn't even thinking about that, but Yeah.

So setting that aside, adding capacity to your system may be easier

than it used to be, but you still, you have to manage that capacity.

You have to know what you need, buy it in advance again.

Right now you have to buy it way in advance because who knows what sort of

truckers situation's going to be going on.

We were short on truckers and now they're like striking.

So who knows how long it will take you to get what you need.

and then the next thing is, so you've designed the system, right?

Let's say you designed it, you built it big and beefy enough

to back all this stuff up.

Let's say you're good at that.

We are living in a new world that is completely foreign to what I remember when

I was admining backup systems and that is you really need to secure this system.

And I would argue, it needs to be more secure than the rest of your data center.

does that seem like a valid statement?

I agree because that contains the keys to the kingdom and

that's your last- resort copy.

And so you need to make sure nothing can impact that.

And so you should be looking at a backup software products that are,

now, this is assuming you're going to design this on-prem system, right?

So you need a backup software product that does not require root or administrator.

Cause you're going to shut down root or administrator.

You're going to disable RDP.

You're going to disable SSH.

And you're like, but that means I would have to go on-prem to

manage my on-prem backup system.

Yes.

That's exactly what I'm saying, right?

Yes.

That's a pain in the butt, but that's the only way you're

going to secure this thing.

And if you disagree with me and you're going to allow administrator

action, then you're going to do MFA.

You've got MFA on that.

You're going to have to do that.

We didn't have to do MFA back in the day.

This is just for the root or administrator account.

That's behind your backup system.

I was just wondering though, I know you talked about disabling SSH and

all the rest, but you could also do like the console port diags right.

yes.

Like a KVM, you mean?

Yeah.

Yes.

You KVM, but then you got to secure the crap out of that thing.

Um,

But that should be part of your, what the IDRAC system and all the

rest to allow remote management.

Exactly right.

and I would still argue that there's a case to be made for not making

that a part of the normal world, because the normal world gets

attacked, it should be separate.

And along with that, it, I do not think that your root or administrator stuff

should be part of active directory.

I do not think that the user IDs that are used to log into your

backup system, the server, not the root or admin, but the backup admin.

Hopefully that should be a separate account, right?

Yes.

I think that should be a separate account from your active directory because if

active directory is compromised, you could then compromise the backup system.

, and then there's the whole thing of securing the backup storage itself.

you spent quite a lot of time at, that other company.

We used to just NFS- Mount or SMB Mount those to the system, but that is insecure.

So there is a multiple protocol ways, To

There's what they call data domain boost, which allowed protocol access.

You would embed a SDK into your backup agent.

It would know how to talk over this very specific protocol to

securely, write to a data domain.

And so it wasn't just widely available over NFS or SMB.

And the other mechanism would be also to use Fibre Channel so

connectivity over Fibre Channel.

So it shows up as a disk, which is also more secure than NFS or SMB,

I would argue that still does it doesn't solve my problem.

I don't like that method.

I don't want it to appear as a file on the file system, on the server at all.

Yes that wouldn't solve that problem.

And then the third method is a virtual tape library or.

Which you could then access,

that makes it, a little bit harder to attack it.

Doesn't make it all you need is just some specialized software

to blow away all those tapes.

But, I would argue that the only secure way to do it as Boost or something like

where it doesn't show up as anything accessible in the operating system,

which means that if the backup server is hacked, then it can't access the backups.

Yeah.

now I will say that in order to make it convenient for people, Data Domain did

release what they call boost file system, which allows a, basically allows the

boost protocol to be used, but enables a NFS Mount point on your local device.

Okay.

And that would then fail your criteria right.

Where it's not secure because it's always available.

It's sitting there.

Anyone can access it.

Yeah.

So all you need to do is figure out which one of these seven different

ways to connect your backup storage is the appropriate one and pick the

most, I think you should pick the most secure one, but it's probably

also the most complicated one.

And I guess the point I'm making here is why would you do that?

If you didn't have to do that, why would you do that?

If you use a true SaaS product, you should not have to worry

about capacity management.

You don't have to worry about any of that.

You don't have to size the back end.

You do but only from a licensing perspective.

Yeah, because you need to still care about your costs, but

you still have to pay for it and you could see you could get it wrong.

And that just means you need to pay a little bit more.

You don't have to go redesign your storage system.

You don't have to worry about the bandwidth to back it up.

You don't have to worry about that whole thing of not knowing

how big an incremental backup is.

Yep.

doesn't matter.

It's not your problem.

Cause you don't care.

Yep.

Yeah.

I would argue though, that you may need to care just to make sure you're able to

meet your backup windows, And your RPOs.

I think recovery testing from SAS to SAS is just as important

as recovery testing elsewhere.

So I would agree.

And, but I guess what you're saying is you can't just ignore how big your system is.

and I think that's true either side.

But I'm just saying from a capacity management persective

perspective, You just have to pay for however many users your system has.

And done.

Yep.

And it, what's great is it's matches the exact same way that

you're actually licensing the production application itself.

Like Microsoft 365.

Otherwise, it's so hard to like, be like, Hey, how much front-end

storage this for 500 users.

And you're guesstimating and being like, I think it's 10 gigabytes, a user.

And I hope I'm right, because otherwise I'm going to need to

buy extra capacity or I bought too much and spent too much money.

Which is probably what you will do.

You probably will overestimate.

That's what we always did with backup systems.

You always overestimated and you typically buy way more than you need.

And, but again, with the SAS world, with a true SAS product, you buy and

pay for only what you need and use.

To me, it just makes sense to backup SAS, to SAS, like you bought off

on the value of SAS for, say, 365.

Why would you want to go backwards in time?

You're in the 21st century with your mail app.

Why would you want to be in the 20th century with your backup app?

I just don't.

don't, I don't understand.

Yeah.

so anyway, I knew you'd be be a good devil's advocate for me though.

Sorry.

So why have you here to give me this?

Give me the sass and to advise me on dust collection design.

Anytime Curtis.

I'm always here.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You and I w we're not going anywhere.

Literally.

here only question is, we're on our computer all the time.

It's just, are we talking to you?

We're talking to work.

Are we watching YouTube.

Yeah.

YouTube.

I'm watching YouTube even right now.

you probably are.

All right.

thanks to our listeners.

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