Episode 327 of the pilot to Pilot podcast takes off Now.

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I'm Caroline Blaze Jensen.

I'm a retired United states Air Force lieutenant colonel.

I flew the F16 and T38 over 3500 hours in Iraq and with the Thunderbirds and I'm currently a speaker, author and looking to get back into the aviation community.

AV Nation, what is going on?

And welcome back to the Pilot to Pilot podcast.

My name is Justin Seems and I am your host.

Today's episode is with a former Thunderbird pilot and it's always fun to talk to these pilots.

I feel like they're just built different and the things they do are so cool.

We have Caroline Blaze Jensen coming on and her story is just awesome.

Shout out to Pivot.

They are the ones that kind of introduced me to her and got this to happen.

So if you don't rock Pivot you.

Should go do it.

I mean I don't have one, maybe I should buy one too before saying that.

But anyways, Blaze comes on and talks about her story, talks about why she wanted to be a pilot and how she became a pilot and it's a very, very awesome story.

So I'm really excited for her to come on, share her story and share.

A little about herself.

So AV Nation, I hope you enjoyed today's podcast and if you do check out the podcast Spotify or itunes.

Sure you leave a five star review if you haven't trying to get to a thousand reviews on each platform.

I think we're pretty close.

I think Spotify we're at like 9:20 and Apple podcast closer to 9.

So thank you so much for leaving reviews and as I said before, you know Grab your dad's phone.

Just leave a five star review and make sure you download the podcast.

Maybe he'll want to be a pilot.

And go fly with you.

You never know.

Could be cool.

But AV Nation, I hope you're having a great day.

And without any further ado, here's Caroline Blaze.

Jensen Blaze.

What's going on?

Welcome to the Pilot the Pilot podcast.

Hi, Justin.

Thanks for having me.

Yeah, I'm excited to have you on you, I think the third Thunderbird I've ever talked to.

Dozen and Mace.

I don't know if you know who those two are.

I do, actually.

I was one of Dozen's instructor pilots.

No way.

So this is.

This is just gonna be.

Tell all about Dozen and it's either gonna be good or bad for him.

You can make or break his career, you know.

Here we go.

Maybe a thousand students.

So I remember him.

Maybe I do remember he.

He had me fly Fingertip with him after he graduated.

And I was about to go to the Thunderbirds.

I'm pretty sure it was him.

They're like, let's go out and just fly.

Fingertip was like this.

And I didn't like flying fingertip until I became a right wing pilot.

What?

So I don't fly anything fun.

What does fly finger tip mean?

Um, so in the Thunderbirds, we say as close as 18 inches to other aircraft.

So I was the right wing looking out at the flight lead, looking for different site references to stay in that formation as we, you know, do a 45 minute show.

That's crazy.

And all the different maneuvers.

So we're not always 18 inches.

That's kind of just for.

For part of it, but it.

It was pretty fun.

Cool.

Well, we can get more into that later.

But the.

The one thing I'm more interested in right now is just the why the.

The why behind you becoming a pilot.

You want to get an aviation.

Just kind of start from the beginning.

Okay.

Um, I think I was bit by the flying bug really early, but it was about six years old and I just saw a movie and it had a Stearman biplane, I think, flying around in the clouds.

Cause I was sick.

So I just.

It was like an open cockpit biplane flying around in clouds.

And I was like super enamored with that.

And my dad actually flew helicopters.

He's a world.

Or.

Sorry, not World War II veteran.

My grandfather's a World War II veteran.

My father flew H34s in Vietnam with the Marine Corps, and he worked up in the Minnesota Air National Guard.

We get to Go to the airfield with him sometimes and see, you know, airplanes in the air and pair of jumpers jumping out of the back of C130s and dropping supplies and stuff.

So I always wanted to do that.

And I saw Top Gun like a lot of people of my generation, but I didn't want to be Charlie.

I wanted to be Maverick, you know, so, so I went to an air show in La Crosse, Wisconsin, and I saw the Thunderbirds fly.

And, you know, going to air shows, it's like kind of this patriotic feeling wells up with you.

And then like you have the physical sensation of those engines going by like so close to you.

You can like, you know, feel it.

And I just, I was really excited about it.

I looked up the United States Air Force Academy, learned everything I could about that, and had to work my tail off every day to get into there and then to survive it.

When I got on my flight to go to the Air Force Academy, it was the only, the fourth time I'd ever been airborne in an airplane.

Oh, wow.

Yeah.

So hope you like it.

Yeah, well, I did, you know, I had one ride in a 1:72 for my 15th birthday, kind of like a, you know, familiarization flight.

And I had taken one trip to Colorado Springs to go to swim camp when I was at the academy when I was in high school.

And I paid for that with all my own money.

Um, so they had a glider program there and I flew Schweitzer two 33s.

Luckily I was good enough that I got selected to be a instructor.

And that's where I really learned how to fly.

Awesome.

Yeah, that's a good place to fly gliders.

Yeah, well, you know, it was, I got about 120 hours and it was like 15, 20 minutes at a time because we didn't thermal.

We would have tow planes tow us up, we'd release.

We do aggravated stalls and, you know, steep turns and manage energy.

Make sure that you got back to the entry points.

You could fly the traffic pattern and land depending on the winds and.

But it was great because I was teaching other kids, you know, 20 year olds kids how to fly.

Was there ever a time when you're up there flying the glider and you're like, we need a thermal bat or else we're going to be landing somewhere we don't want to land.

I luckily didn't have to do this, but there were like emergency off field landings.

So there's a football stadium kind of right underneath one side, like, and that was kind of the further way I guess to get back to the pattern so you could land in the football stadium.

I think one of my classmates had to land there.

And you know, in parking lots they have like signs posted for rows and stuff.

Sometimes I think they ended up hitting one of the posts.

Not too bad.

Everybody was okay.

You know, you're like, your airspeed's pretty low.

Yeah.

And those things.

But yeah, there were, you know, off field landing procedures.

And we would do it intentionally at the end of the day to put the aircraft back in the hangar.

Now they have a beautiful hangar right off the side of the Runway.

But we'd land in this like rocky field and you, it felt like you got punched in the nose by the time you like bounced to a stop because it was, it was not a very even field.

So.

So you make the most junior person do that so you don't have to get punched in the nose anymore, right?

Yeah, no.

Well, we were with our students and allowed you to just take it.

You'd slip your face off to get down, you know, really quick, make sure you had the energy.

And then was kind of a short landing space.

But it, I mean, it was really fun.

Yeah, it was really fun.

Going back a little bit to kind of, you know, you mentioned you watch Top Gun.

It's crazy just how many people can reference one movie for wanting or for getting them to want to either get into the military or into aviation.

I hope Tom Cruise got some kickback or still gets kickback from all, all the enlisted people that they got in there.

So if anyone knows if he's making any money, not like he needs any money, but he has to have something from that.

The military, hey, let's make a third one, you know, we need more people.

Come on.

Yeah, well, in the Air Force we got Iron Eagle and you know, it's like, wa.

Wa.

It's a great movie, but not the Top Gun.

But, you know, it's funny, when I traveled on the Thunderbirds and I was the only woman pilot on the team at the time.

I was the only woman officer on the team my last two years.

So I'd get asked the question all the time, like, how do we recruit more women?

And I said, you need to make Top Gun again, but put a woman in it.

So I was really excited that they had a character.

He was just a competent pilot.

She was nobody's love interest.

She just was herself and a pilot like everyone else.

And they didn't really play up the gender differences.

So I, I appreciate that.

So thank you, Tom Cruise.

That's exactly what he was planning on doing too.

Or maybe make an Iron Eagle too, huh?

Get a female lead Iron Eagle, too.

Improve it a little bit.

I don't think I've ever seen it, to be honest with you, so maybe I should check it out.

But if you say it's not worth it, maybe I'll skip it.

Well, let's do it right.

Right now.

Let's go.

So you.

You have this.

This dream.

You're six.

You know, you're looking up.

Most people in their six are.

Are playing with.

With bikes or with dolls or with GI Joes, whatever it is.

Play.

D'oh.

I don't know.

But you're looking up at the sky and be like, I want to fly an airplane.

There's a lot of actionable steps that take place.

You don't just become a pilot.

What did you do in between that time?

I know you said you went to the Air Force Academy.

You, you worked your butt off to get in there, but kind of talk about the in between time, the, the 6 to 18 of what you did to foster your love for aviation.

I literally only attended two air shows.

I actually saw the Blue Angels fly in Grand Forks when I was about 10 or 11.

And I don't remember it, but I have a picture of me holding a Blue Angels pennant.

So, you know, I read a lot.

I always loved the poem High Flight by John Gillespie McGee Jr.

I actually have.

I had it framed and it was hanging on my wall.

I would like cut out pictures from magazines and got the Air Force Academy brochure and kind of like pull up my.

My pictures that were my favorite and put them in my locker in high school.

And so we didn't have a lot of resources growing up.

My parents were school teachers and, you know, finances is a big barrier for entry into the aviation community for a lot of people.

So had it not been for the Air Force Academy, I don't know that my dream would have come true.

So a lot of it was just staying healthy and things that I needed to do to get into the academy that also make you a great pilot, like a leader and assertive and aware of your surroundings.

And, you know, I did swim team, track team, took a lot of math that I, you know, they would think pilots are these great STEM people.

And especially as an F16 pilot, I.

I struggled pretty hard with it.

I actually majored in English at the Air Force Academ Academy, so.

But not shying away from that, like taking that on full force and going into those courses and learning what I needed to learn, even though it was a little bit more difficult for me than the average student.

So you wanted to be Air Force, like, early age, like it was Air Force and only Air Force, right?

I did.

I actually applied to all the academies, though.

I got into Coast Guard Academy right away, which is an amazing school.

And I think it actually is more difficult to get into that than the other academies.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

And then I got nominations to West Point and Annapolis, and I had early or no, I got nomination to West Point.

I got early acceptance to West Point, Indianapolis, and I went to my Air Force Academy interview, and they called me and they were like, well, where do you want to go?

Because you don't have an acceptance to Air Force, but you do to Navy and West Point, and we can only give you one nomination.

And I had to put all my, you know, all in.

Put all my chips out on the table and, like, I want to go to the Air Force Academy.

And that's what happened.

So it was a big gamble, but it paid off.

Yeah, well, one of my.

High school or not high school, actually.

He was like childhood friends.

Ever since, I want to say, like 4 years old, he always wanted.

He said, I want to go to the Naval Academy and I want to be a Navy pilot.

And he did it.

And so you're kind of in the same boat there.

It's like you set out.

It's crazy to me that you can be so young and be so all in on a goal.

And one, when you're young, you don't understand the work that goes into that goal.

So there's a lot of adversity that comes.

There's a lot of moments when you're like, oh, man, I don't think I can do it.

I'm not good enough.

And instead of hanging out with your friends playing video games, you know, you're either trying to be an Eagle Scout, you're.

You're doing things to make your resume look good for the military.

And it's really cool to see someone have goals at that age and actually do them, because a lot of people say they want to do stuff, and then it fizzles out.

You know, things happen, roadblocks come, and some days you just want to take the easier route.

And there's nothing wrong with just what I did.

I went to Ohio State and just flew on my own, you know.

But it's really cool to see that you had this huge goal and you're able to not only go after it, but get accepted by every academy, which is not normal.

That's really impressive.

Well, you know, I.

It sounds weird, and I talk about this.

I'm a speaker professionally, too.

But you really hit on something that I haven't kind of acknowledged.

And I wasn't so worried about my ability and my qualifications to get in, even though I had to work really hard to get up there at that time.

I was more worried about them accepting me.

And Top Gun came out in 1986.

They did not allow women into fighter cockpits until 1993.

And I graduated high school in 1994.

Oh, dang.

So luckily, the door had just opened when I got to the academy and made everything possible.

And, you know, if I had a line number for fighter pilots, women fighter pilots, I'm probably 50, not more than 75 women at the time that had done it.

I'm probably in, like, the top 50 or first 50 women in the US that flew fighters.

That's crazy.

Yeah.

Was there anyone that you specifically looked up to, like, was a couple classes ahead of you?

Any, like, particular person or set of people that you look up to that kind of helped trailblaze that path for you?

Yeah.

First off, like, right after I saw Top Gun, I went to my Vietnam veteran dad.

And, you know, he knew I wanted to fly fighters, and he was excited because he wanted me to fly something higher and faster in case I got shot at the way he did in Vietnam.

So he, you know, approved.

But he definitely wanted me out of the kind of environment that he was in as a helicopter pilot.

But he told me about the World War II women Air Force service pilots.

So in 1942-1944, there were a little over 1100 women that flew and ferried airplanes.

They did all the missions except for combat and flew everything in the inventory, and they flew all the pursuit planes, P51s.

All that, you know, good stuff, too.

So my dad said, you know, look at this history.

And the rules changed and they're going to change back at some point.

So it's your job that if and when they do that, you're there ready to raise your hand and you're ready to go.

So that gave me a lot of motivation and inspiration.

And later on in my career in life, I got to be friends with quite a few wasps.

And it's just.

I'm getting goosebumps just even thinking about how lucky I am to have.

I have one good friend who's 103 and she's still alive.

Just spoke with her yesterday.

She's fantastic.

B25 was her favorite aircraft.

So that's really what kept me going.

And my freshman year at the academy, now retired General Jeannie Leavitt came to the Air Force Academy with her squadron commander.

She was like a captain at the time.

And they had like a optional meeting and elect an hour.

There may be like, 50 cadets who went in there, but I just remember, like, you know, sitting there and.

And looking at her and just being in awe and, you know, just.

I wanted it so bad, and I just wanted to be able to be accepted into that community.

And oddly enough, Nicole Malachowski, who a lot of people know, the first woman Thunderbird, when I got into the glider squadron, she was the squadron commander.

And they're also, like, in that program, there were like, four women out of, I don't know, 50 per class, or maybe two or three women in each class that flew the gliders.

So it wasn't a lot.

So Nicole, who later went on to be a Thunderbird, she's been a mentor and someone I looked up to and a good friend for a long time.

As we'll get into more of kind of the training and what that was like.

But I want to touch on what you think is important for someone that has the same goal as you, whether it's at age 4, 6, whatever it may be, but wants to go military, wants to specifically go to the academy.

We kind of touched on a little bit how it's.

It's a process.

Right.

Like, I mean, there's a lot of boxes you need to check, and you just have to hope that they accept you, because there's a lot of other people that can check the same boxes, get the same letters, get everything like that.

At the end of the day, it just comes down to reading your paper or who you know.

But what would you recommend for someone that really wants this?

Let's say we can give it two steps.

You know, if.

If you're that young kid that's 8 years old that watches Top Gun with their dad or their mom is like, I want to do that.

Like, all right.

And then also if you're say like a little bit later, like 13, middle school, ish.

Getting ready to go into high school, what would you recommend?

I love those people and I.

I do a lot of free mentoring and, you know, I always loved seeing those kids on the flight line when we landed.

And, you know, people want to put you in a box.

Right, Right.

If you're going to be a fighter pilot or a military pilot, and it's generally not a, you know, a young Woman who was, you know, lived on a farm for the first seven years of her life in Wisconsin.

So, you know, don't let people tell you, you know, oh, well, you know, it's hard to get in there because you need a nomination.

Like, I actually had people say that my guidance counselor.

Like, they.

There was the asvab, which is a military screening test.

And it's not mandatory if you're going to go in and get commission.

But, like, they're like, oh, you don't have to be here, because, you know, we don't have enough seats.

And I'm like, but I want to go in the military.

And, like, there's not that many kids in my class.

Like, why would you excuse me from.

From doing this?

And.

Right.

So I just, like, weirdly had no support.

I had a teacher, too, who failed me on a paper that I wrote about becoming a pilot someday.

And it literally.

The night I was writing out my final draft, the news flash with the first three women fighter pilots from the Pentagon was, like, on the T.

And I went in the next morning, turned in that paper, and it was like, little Ralphie and the Red Rider BB gun.

So excited.

And she literally failed me on it.

And when I went in to talk to her, she didn't really think women should be in the military, much less in combat or flying airplanes.

And she saw how much time and research I took and how educated I was on my decision.

And she gave me a D instead of an F on the paper.

So.

So, you know, nice of her.

Yeah, give me the D, not the F.

It's like, thank you.

Yeah, yeah.

Geez.

You know, or people be like, oh, you need to have a private pilot's license.

And a lot of the young folks that I talk to are, you know, heads and shoulders above where I was as far as, like, aviation experience and, you know, early graduation and 4.9 GPAs or whatever.

That's crazy how.

But don't let that intimidate you, right?

So there's gonna be steps along the way where people don't.

Don't think that it's.

It's the thing for you.

I'm also, like.

A lot of pilots are afraid of heights.

I don't like roller coasters.

I think it's like, me either.

Horrible way to die.

I'd rather be in control, you know, like, so there's just these misconceptions.

And today you have great resources in the Internet to go on there and find websites that talk about what you want to do, like, really get into and try to get connected with people in the community that you think you want to go into.

And you might change your mind, too.

I was lucky that I had a kind of one track mind and my goal and it worked out.

But you might, you might change your mind, you might decide it's not for you.

But there's a lot of work and research that you can do without money to, to figure out what you're going to do.

And there's a lot of people out there, like me, that want to mentor and help people who want to be in our position and, you know, ask questions.

And a couple parents, too, have been, like, really worried about, you know, current climate and policies and stuff like that.

I'm, you know, happy to, to talk to people about that.

Do you think there's an age where it's almost too late for you for the academy, like freshman year?

Is it too late for you to start the process of going sophomore year?

Is it something you really need to start kind of planning for and preparing.

For earlier in that I, I needed to start earlier.

I don't think I would have gotten the grades I got had.

I not, like, had that goal the whole way through.

You know, there's those 1% type folks who are captain of everything and get A's across the board.

I, I had to have the goal to motivate me to do better academically.

So for me to start at 12, it was great.

I literally just talked to one of my 1998 graduate classmates last night and he was like, yeah, you know, I didn't even know what I wanted to do.

I didn't decide till, like, my junior year.

Like, junior year is when you want to have everything in.

And I was like, man, you're smart.

Because I wouldn't have made it if I hadn't.

I needed the motivation.

I had to take the ACTS four times to get my math score into the, you know, acceptable range.

That would make me competitive to go to the academy.

So, yeah, it depends, but I don't think it's ever too early to start.

Yeah, and too late.

I mean, there's people who apply and don't get in, and they go to like a preparatory school.

Air Force Academy has its own prep school.

Some people go to college or community college and just get, you know, maybe you didn't get the grades you wanted in high school.

And all of a sudden, you know, a bolt of lightning came out of nowhere and you're like, this is what I want to do.

And I want to go to one of the academies, you can still go to college, work through there, go to rotc, get good grades, apply and go later.

And, you know, sometimes, like, when you show that you really want it, like, you really need to.

Want to be in the military, to be in the military and enjoy it, especially in aviation, where it's, you know, a lot to study, a lot to know.

Like, flying an airplane is like walking and breathing, right?

Like, I need to know what the ground threats are and the air threats are and, you know, different missiles and capabilities.

And then I'm flying a single engine airplane with really complicated systems.

So I need to know if something happens, you know, out of the ordinary, how to handle that.

So, you know, just manipulating controls of an airplane was like, that was you know, not.

Not my primary focus.

So you.

You kind of got to be good at that, too.

But it comes.

I did my airline training.

Two of my really good friends that I.

That I met there were kind of trauma bonded for life through airline training.

But they.

I mean, you know this.

If you're in the military, you love telling your military stories.

So they would just go back and forth.

I'm just like, oh, you told that last week.

Okay, this is a new one.

I'll listen.

But he was kind of one of my buddies, Mike in Miami.

If he's listening to this, what's up, dude?

He.

Yeah, hi, Mike.

He was talking about just like, you get pimped, almost.

My wife's a doctor, so I don't.

If anyone doesn't know what pimping is.

Just like, randomly, we could ask questions, right?

They have you stand up, recite stuff all the time, put you on the spot.

Not necessarily something you've been studying for the last couple of days, but something that you need to know, you need to remember.

And he was just talking about memorizing checklists, and I think one of them was an emergency checklist where you're like, you have to evacuate, you have to pull the shoot, you got to get out, and you're upside down.

And it's just trying to remember everything and how long the steps are.

And it's just like, dude, try this.

Like, this one is nothing.

You need to know.

Four things for this airline.

It's like, this is like 13 things that you had to recite doing a particular order to save your life.

I was like, dang, yeah, I'll be good with my airline checklist.

Yeah, there's critical action procedures, caps, or we'd have bold face.

That would be emergency procedures and things that you need to know without Looking because you just don't have time to look them up like an abortion or abort.

Sorry, that's stupid.

And abortion, like in a, and abort on takeoff, you have to know how to do that because you don't have time to look it up.

One of the favorite things to do is like, you know, like loss of canopy and you just like take their checklist and like throw it across the room.

I was also an instructor in pilot training as my first assignment.

So I got to, you know, turn around and kind of put people under the microscope.

But I, I want to say that I was doing it for their own good.

I wasn't really one of the people who took joy out of like scaring people and putting them on the spot.

So.

Yeah, yeah.

And I was an evaluator too as a young captain, so I, A lot of times I asked the same questions and you know, and a lot of it was like, hey, that the caution lights in your aircraft, like, those are really good systems knowledge.

Like what makes them go on, what makes them come off and then goes into like the emergency procedure.

So it's like really good systems knowledge that's applicable to you as you're flying your airplane.

Right.

Versus yeah, just trying to haze somebody giving them EPS and multiple emergency procedures.

So yeah, I feel like there's certain people that just have way too much joy in having that over someone and just being able to put them on the spot.

And they love tripping people up and.

Then they get down to like, how many rivets are in the underside of the, you know, blah, blah, blah.

Like seriously, do I need to know that?

I want you to know that.

Like, you probably don't even know that.

Yeah.

I'm gonna ask you how many rivets there are.

Yeah.

Probably wanna go.

Well, yeah, let's go to your first day.

You know, you show up at Academy.

Were you one of few at a women that wanted to be in aviation.

Did you find others that were like, yeah, I wanna be a pilot too.

Let's do this together.

Yeah.

Your first day at the academy, you're at attention.

You're like holding knowledge in front of your face and like studying it.

And you run all over at high altitude getting.

Collecting all of the stuff that they issue.

It's like three bags worth of stuff and you're dragging them across the terrazzo.

So honestly, I didn't even know like almost how many people around me.

Because if you looked around they'd like yell at you for gazing and so you're just.

It Was like straight into the deep end with like, you know, a cinder block Ted around your waist.

So it took a little bit of time.

My roommates that I had that were women, one of them wanted to fly, the other ones didn't.

Like one wanted to do law and, you know, acquisitions and other things.

So, you know, that's kind of a misconception about the Air Force too.

There's like, the majority of the air forces don't fly and even aren't air crew or, you know, pilots.

So there's a lot of amazing people that support the force so that the Air Force can employ the way that it does.

And they're all important.

You don't have to be manipulating the controls or be part of air crew.

So.

I forgot what your question was.

I got off on a tangent.

I know, just talking about being around other women at the Air Force Academy that wanted to be pilots.

Just how many were there?

Was it just like you said, just you and your roommate?

Yeah.

No.

So when I got glider upgrade, I was the only woman upgrading during my section.

There were three other women in my class that did it.

I met Nicole Malachowski.

I think there were maybe two or three in her grade or her class here.

There was like, one ahead of me and we didn't get to talk a lot all the time.

Like, I don't know, it's just because you're doing your job and, you know, learning how to fly an airplane is on top of like a completely full academic load and other responsibilities.

When you go to military school, there's like a lot of administration just to run a squadron.

So you're, you're doing those jobs as well.

So, yeah, I didn't really have any close women friends.

And the really good news is that I did have a lot of male friends and supporters and, you know, people that helped me succeed.

Most of the naysayers were kind of like, didn't have the courage to speak up and say things to my face as much.

Like there are a couple things here and there, but I don't know, it's, it's.

I mean, it still happens in the aviation community as far as, like, women are concerned.

But for sure, I find out if someone makes like kind of a snide comment, I just like, what do you mean?

Like, can you explain that?

Or, you know, same.

Yeah.

I have a really good friend and she's a 787 captain.

I love this story.

And she's an African American woman, a black woman.

And there was someone riding in the jump Seat.

And he has a friend who's trying to get hired by the majors.

And he's like, well, he.

He hasn't gotten hired, you know, and he applied to all these places.

And she's like, I can hear where this, like, conversation is going.

And she's like, let's wait till we land.

And of course he's like, yeah, my friend can't get hired because of all these minorities and, like, women that are getting hired.

And.

And she's like, you know what?

There's, like, less than 200 professional black and African American women pilots.

And she's like, which one of my freaking friends took your friend's job?

You know, like, gets here without meeting the standards.

And a lot of people who are under the microscope, like, the way kind of minorities are, like, you have to be two times, three times better than people around you.

It feels like a lot of the time.

So.

And the audacity of someone to say that, like, what gives you the nerve to even think that or even to bring, like, this is a good idea.

Let me bring this up to someone right now.

Like, why would you think in the middle of a transatlantic flight?

Like, let's talk about this when we land.

What did you think was going to happen?

Yeah, I'll buy you a beer and school you later.

Thanks, man.

Yeah, yeah.

So I don't know.

It is.

It's kind of like confirmation bias, you know, when you, like, something kind of pops up and you're like, man, look at how prevalent it is.

Well, it's really not that prevalent.

Like, women only still make up about 6%, I think maybe I heard an 8% number of women pilots.

So it's.

Even with all the top guns and all the female, you know, there's Blue Angels just got their first female pilot, and Air Force Thunderbirds have had.

They just hired another woman.

And, you know, so there's like six now that have been women pilots on the Air Force Thunderbird.

So, you know, even with all that, it's not really making a dent too much.

Yeah, you're kind of answering what my next question was going to be, but more specific.

In your experience at the academy, you mentioned that when you got there, it was kind of new for.

For letting women fly fighter jets or letting women fly in the academy in general.

Was there any pushback at all?

Was there.

Could you notice any, like, hesitancy of wanting to give you a spot, or was it truly just like, hey, you can do this just as much as someone else.

Here are all the resources, and it's all the same.

And let's go.

Like, yes to both.

I think I got really good at not listening to the haters because.

And I like to tell this to my, you know, teenage son.

Like, other people's opinion of you are none of your business.

Right.

Like, you either the airplane doesn't know if you're a man or woman or, you know, what religion or, you know, any of those different determining factors are, you just go do your job.

And, you know, I'm gonna do me, and I'm gonna be the best me.

And one of the most effective ways to lead is by example.

And you can't deny when you go out and you, you know, do your mission, you have the great landings and pilot training, you get a good, you know, score on your checkride or, you know, you shoot down all your targets in a large force engagement.

Like, you.

You can't deny it.

So just be your best and.

And do your best.

And, you know, there was.

We'd like to have, you know, parties, roll calls.

There'd be a little bit of drinking, a little bit li Sometimes.

So I actually had someone come up to me at the end of my tour in Korea, and he's like, you know what, Blaze?

I never wanted to be in a squadron with a woman before, but you're all right.

And I'm like, wow.

I, like, I don't know how to take that.

I'm glad I changed your mind, maybe.

But I.

You know, there's other chicks out there that are all right.

You know, you're like, thanks.

Yeah.

I think maybe you should switch to water now.

Yeah.

What do you say?

Back to that.

In this situation, like, in the moment, you're like, okay.

No, I don't know.

I guess because it's kind of a privilege in a way.

And I don't want to excuse, like, you know, poor behavior on the side of my squatter mates, but it's also a little bit of a privilege that I got to come into this community that was predominantly male, you know, and with that growth, there comes some issues like that to deal with.

And, you know, a lot of times, like, I know where I stack up to him, and I don't know, it's not worth getting in an argument over starting anything.

And the best times where situations like that would kind of come up, one of my bros would step in, and I'm sure that there were plenty of times when I wasn't in the room and people said something bad about maybe me or women pilots.

I know that my bros stood up for me.

So I actually, I moved back to my hometown and in my hometown there's an Annapolis graduate.

He's a couple years behind me, and he was a flight surgeon.

He flew also, so in the Navy.

And I ran into his brother, like downtown.

He's like, hey, my maiden name was Bong.

He's like, you're Bong?

He's like, we were out hunting with my brother and a bunch of his Navy bros, and with the, you know, potential new Secretary of Defense and his stance against women in combat, they kind of had that come up as a topic of conversation.

He said a lot of the guys were like, yeah, women don't really belong there.

And.

And he was, he's like.

My brother was like, yeah, but.

But Bong, like, she's really good, you know, she does.

So again, it's like, I'm glad I could, you know, put a good face on combat aviation for women.

But you got to give everybody a chance, you know, it's for sure either you can do it or you can't.

Like, there's plenty of men who won't be able to manipulate the controls of a multimillion dollar airplane at, you know, close to the mock and can go to a tanker and manage like the multitasking that's required in a fighter cockpit.

And you know, multitasking and aviation is like a key capability that you need and it's kind of tenfold in the F16 or in the fighter community.

So just, you know, work on your skills and judge people for how well they perform and not like their gender for sure.

And like we said that you can either do it or you can't.

Right?

Like, there comes a time you're going to be tested and it can go one of two ways.

You did it or you didn't do it.

So you have to perform.

It's kind of like every check ride, right?

You have to perform on a certain day to make sure you are doing things to a certain rate or whatever they're looking for.

And either do it or you don't.

And if you can do it, cool.

Welcome.

Let's go, you know, join the group.

Let's do it.

And no questions asked.

Yeah, and.

And you know, going back to your question about, like, how do you get there?

Well, you don't quit either, right?

So if you have a bad check ride and you screw something up or you're weak in certain areas, like if you want to do it, then do it.

Like, nobody gets to.

Nobody experiences success without failure, right.

There's always Going to be headwinds and difficulty and obstacles and roadblocks.

And, you know, it may be more for some people than others, but you're definitely not going to make it if you quit.

Yeah, and I feel like.

So I played sports my whole life, and I feel like the teamwork that goes around sports is similar to the teamwork that goes around military or in aviation in general.

And as someone, when you want to go to quote, unquote, battle, we would call it in sports, obviously it's not battle at all.

Right.

It's just a game.

But you want to know that the person next to you has been through adversity.

You can count on them when times get tough.

And in aviation, you know, you overcoming adversity really makes you, I think, a better problem solver, a better pilot, a better person, because you know that when times get tough, you can go ahead and go above and beyond and perform.

So learning from those mistakes is more important than the actual mistake you make.

It's how you bounce back.

It's how you come back and, and pass a checkride again.

And even if you want to go to the airlines, you know, they're going to ask you why and they genuinely want to know why.

They want to know how you were able to overcome that adversity.

They're not necessarily worried about the failure itself.

They're more worried about how you handled that situation and what you did to.

To overcome it.

Yeah, I.

One of the best compliments that I've ever had or that you could give a fellow service member is that you'd go to combat with them, you know, because their capability and their performance of their job affects everyone's safety, including theirs.

So I do remember when I was.

I was a first assignment instructor pilot in Del Rio, Texas.

It's called a fape.

And there was one woman in the squadron.

When I got there, she went on to fly F16s.

And then I was the only one for a while.

We had a couple of women students.

And then one of them became a fape with me too in the T38.

But when my squadron commander left, he like rattled off every single person's call sign.

And it's kind of funny because there's call signs, but he was like, I would go to battle with you guys, like, any day.

And I just, I remember it's like standing at attention and, you know, it's just this one little moment and he meant it and was just such a great commander.

And, you know, he was like this proud Eagle pilot, like total, you Know, fighter pilots, fighter pilot and just was awesome and you know, made sure that I had the right opportunities and, and got the right credit too for what I did.

So yeah, it was pretty cool.

Shout out to him.

Yeah.

Hey Bodine.

There you go.

When talk about your progression to in the military of, you know, we talked about gliders, but what came next?

Was it an application to actual fighter jets?

Was an application to kind of the training program and then talk about kind of your path to getting Thunderbird and kind of how it all worked out.

Okay, well, I'm very non standard also.

So after graduation from the Air Force Academy, I was, I also flew the Slings BT3 Firefly program.

And at the academy they unfortunately had three fatal accidents that killed both the student and the instructor pilot.

So six altogether.

And I was in the airplane, I was about to turn on the electric driven boost pump and the engine quit.

And my crew chief was like, yeah, we wouldn't let you fly this anyway because that one over there had an engine like fuel cavitation was what was happening.

And when you go back to idle, the prop would keep windmilling and you.

It was very, almost undiscernable apparently that when it quit while it was windmilling, when you push the throttle back in, you didn't realize that you didn't have an engine or it would quit.

So that was kind of one of the issues.

But I was like one ride short of them going, okay, you've had enough T3 time to go to pilot training.

And I also didn't have a pilot's license, so they sent me to Centennial Airport in Colorado, gave me 40 hours and said, do whatever you want, like you just need to solo.

And so I got my ppl in like 36 hours or something like that.

I had a couple left to play with at the end and, and then I went to pilot training and I came back as a first assignment instructor pilot in the T38, which was awesome.

Like you're 23 years old and you've got the keys to a supersonic jet with another 20 something year old student?

Yeah, but it was, I mean that was a lot of trust and yeah, man, I loved it.

It was a really good assignment.

And is it common for someone to finish kind of training you go straight into instructing?

Yeah, every class they.

And things have changed a lot in pilot training since I went through, but there's usually like one or two first assignment instructor pilots that come back.

So they've, they've changed the way that they award wings now.

So I'M I would have to ask someone like currently what it's, it's like all good.

Yeah, yeah.

But yeah, it was common back then for us to go straight in but man, you get so much airmanship.

We'd go cross country all the time and a lot of fighter pilots, you know, take off from base X, go fly around the flagpole and come back and land and they don't operate in the national airspace.

So I got to go and you know, be cross country flying to class B.

You know, I flew internationally, I flew through Canada up to Alaska for an air show at one point in the T38 which was really interesting because it's, you know, not irrefuelable and it took five hops to get there from Texas.

So there were just so many awesome experiences that you can't get anywhere else and you can't beat the price, right?

Like at this first rate training and you know you are paying for it with your blood, sweat and tears.

But it's, there were so many awesome experiences.

I just, I feel so lucky that I did that.

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I mean that sounds like a, a sweet opportunity.

Like you said, being 23 or whatever the age was.

And then go ahead instructing new people and kind of molding them into the pilot the Air Force wants and what you think that they need to be as.

Oh, did you feel like it was easy for you to make the transition from student to instructor?

Especially with someone.

You know, there's a lot of when people become instructors, you know, the first couple hours, like why, how am I teaching someone something?

You know, it's like I barely even know what to do.

But what was the confidence level like when you're going into that?

So after I graduated from pilot training and before I came back as an instructor, they had a pit class pilot instructor training, what that stood for.

So you know, like this is how you do a traffic pattern stall and you know, it Sounds like little mice running on the wingtips.

And then when it sounds like elephants stomping, like that's when you're getting into the stall.

They're like all of these like, you know, kind of things that we memorized.

And I think I flew maybe 40, 50 hours during pilot instructor training which like internalized everything that I had learned through pilot training and some of the pressure was gone and so I could just like really fly the airplane and learn how to fly the plane.

So by the time I got back to Del Rio, I felt like really good about it.

And then you've got guys coming in that hadn't flown a T38 in eight years and they'd been out flying over Bosnia in an F16 getting shot at by SA3s and one of my buddies who did that was like, I've never been in more danger than I've been at in pilot training and I've been shot at before, so.

So yeah.

Cause I mean they don't know anything and I mean there's, it's just great.

I don't, I love being a single seat pilot too and you know, I'm going to get into the civilian flying here in a little bit.

But I, I didn't really enjoy having an instructor in the backseat, especially when I was, you know, it's like just an upgrade sometimes because they just giving you input.

Like I don't really need input to fly this plane and I'm training to fly a plane that you know, only has one seat in it.

So thank you very much.

But yeah, so that, that was really different.

But you know, I'll tell you.

So after pilot training I went to instructor.

Sorry, it was called IFF Introduction to Fighter Fundamentals.

So after pilot training I went to IFF Introduction to Fighter Fundamentals and I flew the T38A.

It was like 1300 hours as an instructor and I go to the T38C which now has updates like some glass in the cockpit, a heads up display.

And I tell you what, it was harder for me to lear how to fly a T38C even though I had 1300 hours in the plane than it was for me to learn to go from the T38C to the F16.

Really?

Yeah.

Cuz like you've been looking at the same place for your, you know, engine and you know, like I wanna see what my oil pressure's doing right now or my EGT or you know, exhaust gas temperature and.

Yeah.

And it's not where it was for the last three Years.

So things are everything that was like that second nature, like this is like walking.

You had to put deliberate energy into like getting the data.

That was just like you didn't even realize that you were, you know, taking in before.

So that was tough.

But it's like mental space he didn't know you were wasting because you knew where to look.

And now you're like, wait, I don't look there.

And then you're two seconds behind now.

Yeah.

And then like looking through the heads up display and you know like where you get your information.

And the, the T38C heads up display, the HUD was the same as the F16, so that was great that I got to learn that.

And so then I went to Luke Air force base for F16 training.

And my first flight, I got to go out to the range and we did some strafing and it was a.

There's a couple two seat F16s out there.

And so I was in one of those.

And the gun is literally like you're sitting right next to it.

It's like outside the airplane, but it's, I mean it's inside the airplane but outside the cockpit.

So this, this guy was like, you know it's gonna go off and he's.

You're gonna know exactly what's gonna go off.

It's still gonna scare the crap out of you.

And sure enough, it just like, it like it rattles your whole like everything.

And like we're, we're precise with that thing when we practice.

But I swear it's like almost hard to see cuz it's like you're everything shaking.

Like the jet shaking, your body shaking.

But like your bones like inside like you're just like.

Yeah.

Your brain shaking.

Yeah, like, holy cow.

Like that was awesome.

Do it again.

Yeah.

So that was great.

So after F16 training at Luke, I went to Korea and flew there for a year.

And the biggest thing I learned there was a lot of weather, like horrible weather.

And I already had a lot of experience flying.

So I was one of the people that was like down to a lower weather category.

So they'd be like, blaze, come to the desk and some like lucky lieutenant would get to go study in the vault and I'd take off and fly in like 301.

And we'd break out of the sun at like 30,000ft or break out of the clouds and see the sun at 30,000ft and then go right back in, all the way back.

And radar trail and F16 radars don't like humidity and moisture.

So sometimes your radar would break lock.

And that back then, that was the only way that we knew where our flight lead was.

You had an idea, but you're turning and getting vectored around.

So I learned a lot there too, about when to speak up and when not to and how the systems work.

And it was fun.

But man, you know what?

I felt lucky that I was probably the only person on the Korean peninsula many days to see the sun.

Oh, that's never been in Korea before.

I never knew that it was so cloudy and the weather was bad.

Well, that year we also had like this.

We called it the Snowfoon.

It was like a typhoon of snow.

Like every day for weeks.

We kept getting snow.

So.

And there are a couple good days, but there was a lot of them were really bad weather.

So after Korea, I went to Hill Air Force Base and I deployed to Iraq and I flew for six months, over 200 hours of combat in Iraq in 07 and 08.

And we were actually there during what they called the surge.

Al Qaeda had stepped up their attacks and the Air Force or the United States had decided that we were gonna, like, take action.

So we were pretty busy employing over there at the time, which was, I don't know, I felt like the Thunderbirds was really cool, but I really felt like everything that I worked for was to be there and to be competent and to help save the lives of, you know, the United States soldiers and our allies there.

So it was a really rewarding time.

And I got home from that and I decided I wanted to leave active duty after 10 years.

And I got pregnant without planning to get pregnant.

My ex husband, we both separated, we were both flying and we both quit our jobs.

And then I got pregnant and I was like, oh, shoot.

So here we go.

Yeah, get me a mom.

I know I'd signed up to be a part time reservist.

Yeah.

So I went from like, you know, steely eyed fighter pilot to pregnant.

It was a tough swing for me, but my son's like the best thing in the whole world, so.

Yep, love it.

So, yeah, so then I went and flew T38 again at Shepherd Air Force Base.

The Euro NATO joint jet pilot training, which is awesome.

All the different cultures that you get to work with there.

And then I was like up in the middle of the night with my infant and I saw the mail on the counter and there was a reserve magazine called Citizen Airmen and they had a little blurb in it about the first reserve pilot who'd been Selected for the Thunderbirds.

And I was like, I want to do that.

It's gonna be me.

So then it happened.

I.

You know, I applied.

I.

Great support coming out of the woodwork, too.

Like, the wing commander had seen all of the great work that I had done in Iraq.

The JTACs, the people controlling our attacks, seemed to be partial to the women on the radio.

Really.

My call sign was Ninja, and my whole squadron was Ninja.

And everyone in the squadron was extremely proficient and competent, and we had a great reputation with the guys on the ground.

Like, if your life is in danger, like, you want Ninja.

There's.

That's awesome.

But there were three women in our squadron, which was, like, probably the most I've ever had at one time.

So, yeah, so the other commanders would give him a hard time.

He had a harem of women down there.

But, yeah, but they.

They really liked having us.

But.

So the wing vice wing commander that had been at Hill was at shepherd, and he knew I was applying, and he came in one day, and he sat down.

He's like, blaze, is there anything I can help you with?

You know, anything going on?

And I knew exactly what he was blind for.

Anything at all?

Yeah.

Seeing this opening.

Yeah.

Well.

And he was accepting all of the applications from the active duty, but I was reserve, and so he didn't have to do anything for me.

And he wrote me a letter of recommendation.

That's awesome.

Even if I hadn't gotten it, it was such a great experience to go and ask these commanders I'd had in the past to write me a letter.

And just some of the great things that people said about you was, like.

That was meaningful.

Was this always a goal of yours?

Was this, like, kind of, like the end goal?

Like, what you wanted to do?

You know, what was the plan to do all this and stay active duty and then go the Thunderbirds, or did this all just kind of happen?

Like, you literally just look down at the magazine, and you're like, hey, cool.

I can do this as a reserve.

Let's go.

I.

I mean, I loved watching the Thunderbirds fly, but my dad was a Vietnam combat pilot.

His father, my grandpa, was in the Coast Guard, and he would tell us about capturing German submarines and, like, shooting, you know, giant shells, like, giant guns off the deck.

And he was, like, clearing hot brass off the deck.

And my grandma on my mother's side, too, joined the Coast Guard, and it was a program similar to the wasp, where they could free up men to go into combat.

So she did a lot of Clerical and office work and running from the land based headquarters to the boat and stuff like that.

So I didn't want to go to combat.

Nobody in the United States does.

But you train for war and you pray for peace.

And I just felt like I owed it to my family that if we ever get in that situation, that that's what I would be ready for and train for.

So the Thunderbirds was not something.

But I mean, hello, like it'd be cool to do that.

And I also thought you had to be like completely a perfect pilot.

And yeah, here's a secret.

Thunderbird pilots mess up too.

You know, like we.

Everyone's human and it's just, you know, flying like certain aircraft have certain errors the way they're designed that you're kind of driven to.

And it's being a better pilot.

As you catch yourself earlier then you then like a newer pilot will let things go too far to a dangerous level.

And when you're more experienced, like you can stop things like it might be a potato where you're like, you know, one second like, oh yeah, and you can fix that.

But yeah, you're like, I know where this is going, I need to stop this now.

Right?

Yeah, yeah.

And that's what's great about being instructor too, because you can sit there and be like, oh, he's going to do this and he's going to do that.

And you're like, yep, sure enough, you know, and I even told you you were going to do all that in the brief and you still did it.

At some point you have to make the mistake on your own though, right?

Yeah.

Like, I feel like you really only learn when you just mess it up and you're like, oh, that's why we don't want to do that.

It's like we almost died.

Okay, I'm not going to do that again.

And that's it.

It like sinks in and you like internalize those lessons and you know, that's really important.

So yeah, that's when you're like, just don't do it again, please.

Yeah, yeah.

So, you know, I also love the F16 and it was a great way to get back there and then just to kind of represent a different demographic and help, you know, be that person that other people can see and you know, young girls, but, and see somebody that kind of reminds them of themselves and open up some new possibilities.

But I'm also a boy, mom.

I have one son and it means a lot to me that he's not gonna limit the women in his life to certain roles because he grew up with, you know, a fighter pilot mom.

So.

Yeah, I love that.

Yeah.

My wife is a doctor.

She's doing some really cool stuff.

And knowing that my son will be able to look up to her and be like, well, hey, look what.

Look what women can do, or, look what my mom can do.

I think that's really cool to have.

And your son is doing the exact same thing.

You know, when.

When he's at school and the kids are like, yeah, my dad does this.

You're like, well, my mom was a fighter pilot, flew the Thunderbirds and did this.

And they're just like, okay, your mom's cooler than my dad.

Cool.

Thanks.

Well, he used to think, like, everyone's parents were Thunderbird pilots, because no way.

A bunch of the kids from the team went to the same school.

And, you know, that's who we'd hang out with on the weekends and air shows and stuff like that.

So it's it.

I got held over for a third year because we got sequestered in 2013, so we got an extra bonus year on the team.

And I'm glad for it because he was six then and he understood it a lot more.

Yeah, that was neat.

That's really cool.

Yep.

Oh, God.

I was gonna say, when you're flying combat, I have a couple buddies who are in the military.

I talked about the other ones because they're separate buddies, but they mention how, you know, when you're just sitting in the office or when you're just flying around the United States, you know, you don't really necessarily feel like you're.

This is their words.

This isn't my words.

That they're literally, like, doing much.

You know, they're just flying to fly.

They're flying to train.

Obviously, you're training for combat, but there's a difference between training for combat and actually being in combat and feeling like.

They both told me that the sense of kind of, like, self worth or actually doing the mission that you're training for was so fulfilling in what they're doing and knowing that you're either making a difference of people on the ground or maybe making difference in a war or a group movement.

Did you feel that, too, kind of being over there?

Yeah, I definitely did.

And, like, in the fighter community, the, you know, we set up scenarios all the time, and so we're always practicing it, but definitely when you get there, I always thought of the phrase, failure is not an option.

Right.

And, like, what that meant to me before that experience was like, man, I can't screw up because, like, you know, everything's gonna fall apart if I don't.

And when I got in there, it was like, I'm trained.

I can handle anything.

Like, failure's not an option because I can handle whatever curveball you throw at me.

Like, there's.

There was no doubt in my mind that, you know, if my engine quit, I knew what to do, or if someone got pinned down by, you know, the enemy, like, I knew what to do, or, you know, like, running out of gas and, like, helping out my wingman and bringing in another set of fighters.

Like.

Like, we were just so well trained.

And it wasn't, like, a cocky confidence.

It was like.

Like, I know what to do, and people's lives are at stake.

And so in that way, it was, like, really rewarding and really fulfilling.

And for the most part, like, I had some leadership duties to do.

But you, like, sleep, fly, work out, eat, sleep, fly, workout, eat.

So life is, you know, pretty simple, and it's nice, and it's.

You get to focus on the fun things.

Yeah.

No, it sounds like paperwork is a.

Is a big thing in the military world, and when you don't have to do paperwork and you can just eat, sleep, fly, work out, I feel like that's kind of the best idea for.

For a military pilot.

Yeah.

Well, and we had a lot of stress.

Ish.

Because you'd have to have your.

After we got back, if you employed weapons, you had, like, a colonel on base show up and, like, look at your tapes.

And so the whole flight back to the base after you're done with your missions, you're like, do I do that right?

Did I do that right?

You know, so, like, judging every.

Every decision.

Oh, yeah.

They're like, pause, you know, like, I did this, you know, after being in the plane for three hours at night managing all these issues, and then when I hit that pickle button, man, I hope everything lined up the way it was supposed to.

And, you know, it did, like, 99% of the time.

Yeah.

And even the ones that were a little bit out of parameters still had the desired effects.

Good.

So.

Yeah.

So, yeah, I don't know.

It was, like, really rewarding to be doing what you were training and to be part of the team, too.

Like, I love pulling up on the tanker after I dropped my first bombs, and the boomer was, like, so excited.

Like, oh, my gosh.

Yeah.

I didn't have to say anything.

Like, he was just looking and to, you know, like, see how we're doing.

So, you know, they're part of the mission, just like we were.

So.

Yeah.

And we talked about how awesome it is to be such a great role model to your son.

When your son asks questions about what you do, you know, how do you answer those questions?

Do you.

Do you go into full detail?

Do you kind of expert details just so he knows kind of what mom did, like, and what the risks were, what the reward was and what you actually had to do?

Or was it just kind of like, ah, fly.

Fly airplanes.

You know, I do all this kind of talk a little bit about explaining what you do and did in the military to your son.

I think it just, he grew up with it ingrained.

We didn't really hide anything from him.

So.

His dad is also a, you know, former F16 pilot.

So he, he just, he grew up around it.

And I think he's.

He's interested in being in the military.

Cool.

Like me, he's only flown a handful of times, so that might be something I can give him.

He's a sophomore.

I can give him some experience before he graduates from high school to see if that's a route that he wants to take.

So, you know, and there's a lot of video games with a lot of, like, killing.

He loves doing airsoft.

And he's like, yeah, maybe I want to do this.

I was like, you know, every time one of those BBS hits you, like, if that was a real bullet in real life, like, you have to think about that.

Yeah.

Like the real world ramifications for doing something like this.

But, you know, there's some, like, difficult questions surrounding combat and weapons employment.

And I really thought people would ask me on the Thunderbirds, and nobody asked me till I got to a ROTC squadron.

And I was like, well, I'm going to answer these things honestly for you because this is what you're signing up to do potentially, you know, when you graduate, when you get commissioned.

So, yeah, it's.

I mean, it's war.

Like I said, we don't want to do that.

But there were some really awful things that Al Qaeda, Iraq was doing in the country.

And, you know, we had guys getting blown up by roadside bombs, like Americans on a regular basis.

And to be able to stop that and look for that, find people digging holes, find, you know, hot spots on the side of the roads.

Like, all those things that we did in combat definitely saved lives.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

I mean, so when you're in that process and you find someone, it's just like, you see someone Digging a hole, you just like, shoot.

I was gonna say there's a long.

Process and there's like a ground commander who's like in a command and control center, like pretty far removed.

You know, he's got his cup of coffee and he's been to the, the restroom and he's got a good night's sleep and all that stuff.

Who's like helping to make the final employment.

He can think through it.

Yeah, yeah.

But you know, two kind of off the wall kind of stories.

One night there was a town that there was an intersection and they'd had a lot of bombs.

So like we're going to go into this town, we're going to look at this.

Well, I see four people sitting around like this like glowing hole and they're like getting ready to drop on them.

And I was like, like it doesn't look like they're digging anything.

And sure enough, it was like good guys.

Iraqi security forces making tea in the middle of the night.

Like, holy cow.

Like if we hadn't double, triple, quadruple checked, like that could have been really ugly.

And then this one's kind of comical.

Like one person got in a car and they like drove.

We see them and they pulled over and you see them like digging a hole while they were going to the bathroom.

But the targeting pot is so like, picks up thermal differences so much that it looked like there's like a hole and then there's, you can see a temperature difference from whatever went into the hole.

And it's like, dude, that guy almost like got smoked cuz he had to go to the bathroom.

So it was, you know, it wasn't that close.

But you're, you know, you have to take some time.

Just the idea that you can just be going to the bathroom and then, you know, a couple minutes later, lights out, game over, right?

It's like, dang, just.

You wouldn't even know your time, man.

Yeah, a lot of it was.

And it was at night too.

Like people don't do that during the day.

I assume they don't anyway, but.

And then the thermal difference is a lot different at night too.

For the, the targeting pod to be able to see the I.R.

picture.

Um, yeah, so it was kind of comical.

And he didn't almost get, you know, we, but that's where you have to do your due diligence and make sure.

And then, you know, we got smart and be like, hey, can you check with the, whoever's local there and, and see if there's any patrols out or you know, to make sure that we.

We got the right people.

We.

There was a.

I went to Congress right after my Thunderbird tour, and one of the congressmen, I won't say the name, but he was like, we need to be wire jets coming back with bombs on the rails.

That's, you know, we need to be getting rid of all of our bombs when our fighters go out.

Like, well, sure as heck, we do not need to be doing that, because bad things would happen if you don't.

You know, you need the kind of.

That human and a couple people in the chain to make sure that we're doing the right thing.

Also, just shooting bombs.

A shoot bomb sounds expensive, right?

Like, yeah, they're not cheap.

Yeah.

When you're moving on to the Thunderbirds, it's a completely different mentality from flying in combat.

Did you.

I mean, I.

I say that like I know it.

I obviously don't, but just from the outside looking in, it's a complete different mentality.

Right.

Like, obviously, you or your team, you have a mission, but your mission isn't necessarily to get to save people on the ground.

It's to promote the Air Force.

It's promote Thunderbirds, promote flying, to promote.

Promote America and a brand.

Right.

Talk about the mentality of you kind of flipping that switch of your mission of what you're doing.

Well, the.

The Air Force Thunderbirds are a team that represents the pride, precision, and professionalism of the entire Air Force.

And I also kind of include the Department of Defense in that.

So it's really difficult flying.

Some of.

There was.

One of the pilots had been through weapon school, and he was like, this is harder than.

Than going through weapon school, which is like our top gun.

And, like, you're exhaustive.

You'd fly twice a day, every single day.

And you start out at higher altitudes with maybe two aircraft, and you learn how to do a loop and a roll, and then, you know, you add more airplanes and you gradually, like, step down.

You gradually increase the number of aircraft, and you start with the easy maneuvers and work your way up to the harder maneuvers.

They're all pretty tough, so.

But that's a representation for what everyone does.

So while it's a completely different mission dealing with press, and my crew chiefs installed a little lip gloss holder for me in the cockpit, which is awesome.

Basically Velcro.

But because we, like, fly four hours from Vegas to Atlantic City, and you get out and, like, there's someone with a camera in your face, nice to, like, interview about the weekend air show.

So it's like Jackie Cochran, who was the founder of the wasps.

It was like, you know, make sure you always have your, like, look good when you get out of the airplane.

So I know it's a little sexist, but I think it's kind of cool too.

So.

I think it's cool.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, you know, the mission was different.

The, the pace was really high.

It felt like a combat pace.

Like you're in a different city all the time.

I mean, the ramifications for screwing up when you have, you know, probably a couple thousand people filming you that could go on YouTube within five seconds if you do something wrong.

Like, there was a lot at stake, so a lot of the pressure and, and the pace was really similar to a regular, regular fighter squadron and going to combat.

But you got to work really close to with, you know, your crew chief.

Like, I, I didn't set any of my switches or handle any of my gear.

Like, we had air crew flight equipment and, and crew chiefs, and my crew chief would set my switches.

And there's certain switches in the F16 that you have, they're red guarded and they have to be in the right position when you start the aircraft or bad things can happen.

And like, you trusted them to do all of that for you.

And some things were like, personal pilot preference and like, they knew where to put my armrest and how high my seat should be and like, too high.

Too high, too high.

Nope.

Perfect.

All right, Got it.

Well, and then when we're like doing our ground ops, we're just, just looking straight ahead.

If you're in front of a crowd.

So you have to do everything by feel too.

So that's why it's important that, that everything's set up the right way.

So that teamwork and that trust was something that was just a level up.

Oh, sorry.

Do you feel the pressure?

You know, you mentioned that there's a lot of pressure to perform.

Right.

It's a different kind of pressure.

It's not necessarily people dying, but it's media exposure and whether it's embarrassment or just a mistake, that just is really bad.

Do you feel that pressure before?

I kind of, I feel like it's kind of like a NFL player like preparing for a big football game every single week.

Right.

Like, you got so much pressure.

You train, you train, you train, you train.

And then like we talked about earlier, you.

You got to perform.

You know, you either do or you don't.

And you constantly have to, to perform at air shows.

And do you feel that pressure all the Way up until you get in the cockpit.

And then you kind of sit there and you're like, all right, it's game time.

It all kind of goes away.

Um, yeah, I think it's more game time.

And before it starts, you know, there's like a whole like, ground thing.

And you turn around and like some of the shows they had 400,000 people like standing or like were there.

So you'd be like looking at all these people and you can see them talking and pointing at you and stuff like that.

Um, but yeah, once you like hit.

Once that engine starts cranking, like you're, you're on duty.

And the longer you.

The more repetitions you get and the further on in your tenure there, you get like.

Like being out by an inch feels like a mile.

And so your self preservation kind of goes away because you trust the boss and you know exactly what he's going to do and you trust your teammates.

So it kind of helps to take the nerves away.

But it's funny because your community, you know, with a lot of pilots that are listening, most people don't know if you mess up anyway, you know, if.

You mess up but no one else does.

Yeah, you know, for sure.

We had like a practice day.

My first air show was at sun and Fun and it was a practice day, but there was like, however many people are at sun and Fun on a Thursday.

Were like watching us practice and we did an echelon turn and there was like a compression and I was like, out.

I was in the front page of the paper.

The next day was like this two plus two formation.

Like they thought it was like the most beautiful formation.

I was embarrassed beyond belief.

Like, that was the most embarrassing thing that's probably ever happened to me in my life.

They thought it was the coolest thing.

Ever and front page and the perfect like two plus two formation.

No, it's supposed to be four aircraft, like all, you know, like one on one, like kind of sandwiched together.

So.

So needless to say, I shouldn't look for that front page on the background.

I've looked for it.

I can't find it easily.

Um, but the other funny thing is that, you know, you'd get like.

And it was usually like a 16 year old kid who'd come up to you and be like, what happened on takeoff?

When you got a little bit aft?

You're like, come on, dude.

Like, yeah.

So they'd give us a hard time.

So I kind of keyed in on that.

And like, if I had a friend who'd come through the autograph line.

I was like, hey, when you talk to four, ask him why he was deep in F on takeoff.

You can see his face fall.

It's just, like, jokingly, like, plant little palms for them to keep it fun.

But, yeah, it was.

It was funny.

You'd get these, like, younger kids kind of critiquing, like, why did that go wrong there?

Like, give me a break.

Because I'm human.

There were birds.

Look, like the last show you're at.

What'd you do wrong?

Yeah, seriously, like, it's, you know, minor date details.

Most people don't know.

Yeah, that's so cool.

Yeah.

But the team looks amazing.

Like, they've done some great things.

And there's been awesome collaboration between the Thunderbirds and Blue Angels since COVID and they've really stepped it up.

I'm super proud of them.

Is there a rivalry at all between the two?

Is there, like, I know we're better than you, or was it historically their rivalry at all?

Yeah, of course.

A lot of people, you know, they're like, oh, you were a Blue Angel.

And I'm like, no, I was a Thunderbird.

It was like a Blue angel, but better.

Yeah.

And I made friends with my counterpart who was Blue Angel 3 when I was Thunderbird 3.

And, you know, like, one day, we must have been in a.

Like, close to a Navy community or a coastal community, and I got asked as a blue angel like, 10 times that day, and I texted Nate.

I was like, hey, do you ever get asked if you're a Thunderbird?

And he wrote back all the time.

And I was like, okay, thanks.

So, you know, my.

My son had this, like, die cast blue angel that he would not go to sleep without it.

I would take it and hide it in the bottom of the toy box, and he'd, like, pull it out, and.

I'm like, you want to be a Thunderbird?

They're better.

Yeah, it's just because it's blue, Right?

Kids love blue.

That's the only reason.

Yeah.

Thunderbirds.

Yeah, all the way.

But.

So there is rivalry, but, you know, there's a lot of cross talk.

The.

There's a famous picture, if you've seen, of the Thunderbird, who's, like, ejecting out of the plane, like, right before it impacts.

The Blue Angels had a mishap that was kind of similar to that one where the pilot did not survive.

So, you know, things like that, learning from our mistakes, that cross talk is.

Has been established there so it can.

Can keep everyone safe.

And definitely a lot of mutual respect more than competition.

But it's just always fun to have.

Some kind of rivalry.

Exactly.

Yeah.

You gotta give people a hard time.

It's fun.

Like, there's rivalry within the team between the diamond pilots and the solo pilots, or like the right side versus the left side or, you know, it keeps things fun.

Was being a Thunderbird everything you thought it would be?

No, I thought it would be all about the flying.

And it was 5% flying and 95 relationships and interactions with people.

Like, whether it's people in an air show line, sometimes if it's a big crowd, they will crush kids up by the fence because they want to get your signature.

And it's just like, like, like, how do you manage that kind of thing?

Or, you know, you maybe had an issue with one of the other teammates and just having to start over and reset every day when you come in.

Focus on the mission.

Cause that's what's most important.

Like, whatever kind of tiff is going on between you, that doesn't matter.

And then interacting with, like, I had a lot of generals.

I was.

I started out as a major and I pinned on Lt.

Col.

My last air show, but I had all these, like, generals in my backseat and where I would have been, like, scared before.

I'm like.

Like, they need me.

You know, they're gonna think I'm awesome.

They're gonna be really happy, you know, when this whole thing's over.

So, you know, that kind of changed my perspective on things.

Yeah, I mean, it's awesome.

I mean, just talking about your career.

I mean, I feel like we could talk for.

For hours and hours and hours, and someone's gonna let us just be like, why don't you ask more about this or that or that?

But, like, so we'll have to do more.

But yeah, I'll come back on.

I also heard the T7A Redhawk, which is.

That's sick.

Yeah.

There are only two aircraft that existed at the time.

They're experimental.

Boeing owns them and rid a couple aircraft now.

But I got to fly five hours in it.

And I got to go to General Brown's change of command when he became the Chief of Staff of the Air Force.

That's sick.

Yeah.

And we had the.

The T7 was sitting in the background, so I got to go through all the academics and the sims, and I only flew it five times.

But I was the.

I was really in charge of business development for the program.

I wasn't there primarily to fly, so it was.

It was awesome to get to do that.

I was the first woman qualified to fly in it.

They didn't let me fly, unfortunately.

Like, I didn't get to take it solo because they only had two.

And like, all the tests revolved around those aircraft being able to fly, and they could not answer the mail if I did, you know, blue attire or something like that, you know, not that I would have, but they didn't want to pants, so I forgive them.

They were awesome to let me fly.

Yeah, it was really cool.

That's so cool.

I mean, just the opportunities that you've had and the opportunities to be, you know, the person.

Person that you saw when you were going to lacrosse to watch the air show.

Right.

Like, did it ever come to you and kind of.

Did it ever hit you that you are doing what inspired you to get into the military and to fly?

Absolutely.

And the biggest moment that illustrates that was like, I'm not getting choked up.

It is giving me goosebumps.

When I was a freshman at the academy, academics were really hard for me.

And I got a 2.2 grade point average my first semester.

Oh, dang.

Welcome to the show.

I know.

And I'm like, oh, I don't know if I'm gonna make it.

And I was beating myself up, and I was like, why the heck did I go through all this pain all these years?

You know, I could have been out hanging out with my friends or a normal school and drink every weekend doing something else.

And I was.

And I, like, worked so hard.

I've only done one year.

I've literally gave it like 210.

I don't know if I can even make it through through three more years.

They do get a little bit easier.

But at that moment, it was.

I just finished finals and that graduation week was coming up, and I was walking across the terrazzo or the campus at the Air Force Academy, and I'm like, head hanging down, feeling really sorry for myself.

And there was this, like, this rush go by.

Scares the crap out of me.

I look up and no kidding, it was a Thunderbird going between the chapel at the Capitol or of the.

It was a Thunderbird going between the chapel at the Air Force Academy.

It's got all the spires on the top and then the front range.

It's like this beautiful white chapel.

And then the mountain background and then this F16.

Red, white and blue.

F16 going through that.

And in that moment, as a cadet, I was like, that's what I'm here for, you know, because I might not make it, but I'm there.

I'm not going to let anything take away my opportunity to maybe get to fly a fighter someday.

I love it.

What a great mentality.

Yeah.

And Fast forward to 2012, when we showed up for the Air Force Academy graduation.

I dropped down to fly my lines, and I hadn't even realized it until I did it.

I was the jet flying between the chapel and the Front Range.

And I just hope that my service and what I did was inspiring other cadets.

The way it inspired me.

I'm sure it has.

I mean, how could it not with everything that you kind of talked about right now and what you've been able to do and accomplish and still what you can do and how you're telling your story, whether it's through a podcast or whether it's through motivational speaking or whether it's just talking to other girls in aviation or guys in aviation, or if it's your son saying what your mom did, you know, who knows, the.

The other sophomore girl that could be there, a boy that's like, oh, that's cool.

If your mom did that, I want to do that.

So just what you did is awesome.

And it's an honor to talk to you.

I have a couple more questions and we'll go like one or two.

But for someone that's accomplished a lot in the military, that's done a lot in the program, that's someone, you know, you've reached a dreams.

For a lot of kids that kind of think, like, I want to be a Thunderbolt pilot or I want to fly in combat or I want to do this, you know, what overall would you say makes a good Air Force pilot or fighter pilot or just any pilot in the military?

Determination and being devoted to it.

And, you know, like we talked about before, just the ability to.

To take a failure and continue to move on the Thunderbirds, we like to joke like, you're only as good as your next pass.

You might have done the best whatever echelon turn, but you have 10 more maneuvers, so you have to do everything well.

And I mean, a lot of your folks have been in simulators, right?

And you screw something up, you can't harp on, oh, I messed up that approach or that landing or whatever the the event was.

You have to new jet, new j restart in your brain control, alt, delete and like, you know, go.

So that ability when you run into roadblocks where you stumble, just having the confidence and the courage to try again.

Yeah, no, I think that's huge.

And I think that's huge in anything in life, too.

Right.

There's so many parallels between sports and flying.

That's just crazy.

I mean, just what you're saying just reminded me of.

Of playing football and just everything that they tell you, you know, I was a quarterback, throw an interception.

Short memory.

You got to keep going.

You got to go.

And that's you.

You can take that into life.

You can take that in the military, you can take that into flying.

Just being able to pursue, just persevere.

There you go.

Can't say that word.

Right, Right.

But being able to persevere and continue.

And a lot of.

A lot of people, this is kind of like a segue and getting off track a little bit.

But a lot of people kind of ask about a podcast, right?

Like, how did you do it?

How to.

Like, what.

What's the point?

It's like, honestly, it's just continuing to do it.

Like there was never, like a moment, like a one episode or one thing that made it kind of pop off or do well.

But it's just the fact that you don't stop.

You know, you don't have many people listen right away.

You don't.

You're not going to make sponsorship money for a while, but just continuing to do it and put yourself out there.

And eventually people like, oh, this podcast been around for.

I've listened to this.

Not bad.

Oh, wow.

He actually got better.

He was awful.

I couldn't listen to him before, you know, so it's just continuing to show up.

And you.

If you show up every single day and continue to come back, you're already doing way more than a lot of people.

Yeah, a lot of people do quit.

And that's why the motivational inspirational speaker will never go out of business, because there's always going to be someone who just needs a little bit of extra boost and to see, you know, athletes who you admire, pilots you admire, or, you know, other folks who faced adversity.

And.

And I think people are really surprised when you see someone who succeeds at a high level that they've had to face those things.

I think being open and transparent, when you're asking, like, when you find that mentor, ask them like, hey, what are times that you failed?

And you.

Yeah.

You know, how did you handle it?

Because everybody has that experience in their life.

Absolutely.

Because everyone's gonna have.

Yeah, absolutely.

That's a determining factor, for sure.

Yeah.

Last question.

What's next for you?

Kind of encompass everything that you.

You've accomplished.

Like, if you just walked away from it, you know you've had a good career.

You can essentially do whatever you want and look back and be like, dang, I did that.

And not many people can say that they have done or even touched what you did, but it sounds like you want more.

So talk a little bit about what you're working on, what you're doing, kind of goals and what you're planning on.

Okay, thanks.

I.

I've been introduced a couple times.

I actually was just inducted into the Wisconsin Aviation hall of Fame.

Yeah, that's in October.

Yeah.

And it's exciting because I know it's one of the 50 states, but I mean, the home of the EAA.

And Billy Mitchell, who's the father of the Air Force, is from Wisconsin.

Lance Saijan, Richard Bong, who was the number one ace of all time in the United States, all from Wisconsin.

So that's sick.

There were a lot of fighter pilot aces too that were from my home state here, so that was awesome.

But it's been interesting being retired from the Air Force, but it's given me a lot to be able to kind of of explore in creativity and I really enjoy interactions with people.

I also have a podcast that I just started.

We have four episodes out now, and it's called All Fire, no Smoke.

And it's with me and another pilot named Meryl Tangastal, who was also known as the Dragon Lady.

Sick name.

Yeah, she was a YouTube pilot and the YouTube is called the Dragon lady.

And she's the first and only black woman to.

To fly that.

So she flew up in space and she started out in the Navy.

She flew helicopters.

What a badass.

Yeah, total badass.

She was on Tough As Nails, the TV show too, at one point.

And so we kind of have her experiences with the Navy and spy plane and being in space.

Compared to me, who's like an air to ground fighter and a low altitude demo pilot, and we both have families and how we kind of navigated and I don't know, we laugh a lot.

She's hilarious.

So I wish I was as funny as her, but she brings it up a notch, so that's really fun.

And then I wrote a book about my experience with my son when I was on the Thunderbirds.

It's a kid's book though.

He wanted to fly with me and he said, I want to go with you.

And I said, you can't.

He goes, but what if I turn into a mouse?

Then I can like, hide in the cushion.

So the book is called Thundermount and it's about a little Boy who gets the help of a mouse to sneak into mom's flight bag when she goes to work.

And then Thundermouse like sneaks out and like looks at all the cross country flights and all the air show demonstrations and comes home at the end of a trip and like crawls into the boys room and whispers in his ear.

So he dreams about flying with his mom when he's asleep at night whispering to him.

So that's.

Yeah, it's been great.

It's really well received and I self publish so it's growing all the time.

And I just published a audiobook.

My website for it is Thundermouse Shop where you can get that.

And everyone's like okay, I want a T shirt or I want a sweatshirt.

So I'm slowly adding those items too.

So that's been really fun.

And then I have been doing corporate speaking which is great.

Again going into a team that maybe they're doing great but need more motivation or helping people kind of solve problems and see themselves in a different perspective through sharing some of my experiences as a fighter pilot and leadership and being a part of some, you know, first rate teams.

Yeah.

And possibly flying again.

Yes.

So I, being a single mom has been really tough to fly.

That was part of the reason that I ended up retiring when I hit retirement eligibility.

So he just, just turned 16, got a driver's license, gonna be spending a little bit more time with his dad who's a Delta pilot.

So I'm gonna go back and start with tail wheel endorsement.

Oh, sweet.

You're doing it for fun then, huh?

Well, yeah, but I don't know, I'm thinking about some other opportunities.

I won't throw any company names out there, but yeah, I'm thinking about now that I can have a little bit more ability to, to be gone and getting back into that.

But I, I really want to fly the aircraft that the WASP flew.

So I'm a member of the Minnesota Commemorative Air Force and my friend Mickey, who's a 103 year old WASP, flew the B25.

It's her favorite plane and I.

So I want to hopefully get checked out in that while I can still ask her questions about it because she remembers everything.

So I love it.

Yeah, it's so it'd be neat to kind of represent those women modern day flying the airplanes that they flew and get to tell their story.

Stories.

Yeah, a lot of people don't know them, so.

I'm an author and that's my memoir I think is going to be about my relationships with these women.

And it's funny.

We sit around, like, the campfire, sit around, have a glass of wine, and we're kind of trading stories and things that happened in 1942 happened to me in 2012.

So I think they're pretty amusing.

And there's a lot of similarities, but it helps highlight how wonderful and unique and how groundbreaking they were.

Yeah, absolutely.

100%.

And it's just really cool to see you be able to share those stories.

And like you said, the book sounds great.

It sounds like a book my.

My kid would love Thundermouse, so I might have to check that out.

Yeah.

And I also love how you kind of just briefly mentioned just how crazy this industry is for families, for kids.

I just recently started with an airline.

I flew corporate before, and just being junior can be really hard on a family.

I always tell people, when you're getting into this industry, just find someone that really understands it, because this is a tough industry to be married to someone in, and it's a tough industry to raise a family in, so.

And single parenting is.

Yes, it's hard by itself, but absolutely.

And I have friends who have done it and who do it, and, you know, I just.

I know my son's gonna be graduating from high school in two and a half years, and I.

I have missed flying.

It's like my yoga.

It's my meditation.

So I'm looking forward to getting back to it.

But I will never regret the.

The.

The kind of little hiatus that I took to spend time with him.

So, yeah, I'm.

I know.

I'm happy for what's happened, and I'm really excited about the future.

Well, I'm excited for you, too.

It was a lot of fun having you on.

I really appreciate taking the time with me.

And like you said, there's many more podcasts I feel like we could do, and we can just kind of dive into just subjects about it because the.

The way you share it, the way you tell it, and what you've accomplished is just really cool.

So thank you for coming on.

I really appreciate that.

Yeah, it was.

It was great to talk, so I wish you the best of luck in everything you do, and if I can ever help out, let me know.

Thanks, Justin.

Likewise.

Yeah, anytime.

That's a wrap on today's episode.

Thank you so much for listening to the podcast.

Like I said, share this, send it to everyone.

If you want to be a Thunderbird.

This is the best episode for you.

If you know someone wants to be a Thunderbird or just fly in the Air Force.

Send on the podcast, you know, without any questions.

Boom.

Listen to this.

It's great.

But AV Nation.

Hope you're having a great day.

And as always, happy flying.

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