1 00:00:01,455 --> 00:00:02,535 Troy: Do you like my sweatshirt? 2 00:00:03,225 --> 00:00:04,815 Alex: I think you should turn off the blur. 3 00:00:05,385 --> 00:00:06,015 That's what I think. 4 00:00:06,458 --> 00:00:06,938 Troy: Alex. 5 00:00:07,118 --> 00:00:09,458 I never wanted to be a video star. 6 00:00:09,908 --> 00:00:10,478 I never even 7 00:00:10,508 --> 00:00:11,108 Alex: here you are. 8 00:00:11,108 --> 00:00:12,848 Yet here you are. 9 00:00:12,998 --> 00:00:16,688 Brian: uh, the reluctant podcaster that that's wasn't that Alex's role. 10 00:00:17,108 --> 00:00:18,218 Troy: I'm happy to do a podcast. 11 00:00:18,218 --> 00:00:20,408 I just don't want to be like a YouTube character. 12 00:00:20,588 --> 00:00:22,058 Like I, it is not my jam. 13 00:00:22,366 --> 00:00:24,316 Alex: I don't wanna wear pants, but here we are. 14 00:00:25,026 --> 00:00:25,986 Brian: Perfect analogy. 15 00:00:26,871 --> 00:00:27,231 Alex: Exactly. 16 00:00:28,252 --> 00:00:29,842 Troy: you got a sermon to give Brian? 17 00:00:30,187 --> 00:00:32,737 Brian: Well, uh, I do actually. 18 00:00:55,285 --> 00:00:58,060 Welcome to people versus Algorithms. 19 00:00:58,060 --> 00:01:02,770 I'm Brian Morrisey, joined by Troy Young with a blur on his camera. 20 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:05,050 Troy, you got a Zi in, you're ready to go. 21 00:01:05,140 --> 00:01:06,370 Troy: Ready to go. 22 00:01:07,270 --> 00:01:16,043 Brian: I saw a guy in an airport earlier today, earlier today, yesterday, who, he was wearing shorts in Detroit and like a backwards baseball cap. 23 00:01:16,043 --> 00:01:18,143 And I was thinking, that's the Zis guy. 24 00:01:18,143 --> 00:01:19,883 And sure enough, he, he popped one in. 25 00:01:20,553 --> 00:01:21,253 so that was fun. 26 00:01:21,763 --> 00:01:23,293 And Alex Schleifer. 27 00:01:23,353 --> 00:01:24,283 Alex, welcome. 28 00:01:24,283 --> 00:01:24,343 I. 29 00:01:25,095 --> 00:01:26,055 Alex: Glad to be here. 30 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:27,300 Troy: a sec? Can we talk about it? 31 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:28,230 Did you wanna start with a 32 00:01:28,335 --> 00:01:29,390 Alex: That's all you want to talk about. 33 00:01:29,450 --> 00:01:29,870 Why not? 34 00:01:30,310 --> 00:01:31,080 Brian: What Zens 35 00:01:31,320 --> 00:01:39,540 Troy: well, I bought, I, I just wanted to try, I'm looking for the perfect Zen and there's European zis and there's American zens. 36 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:42,390 The American ones are much better, in my opinion. 37 00:01:42,390 --> 00:01:45,090 Some of them are like wet and they're, they're not nice. 38 00:01:45,510 --> 00:01:51,766 So I tried this, this, new product called, athletic, just like an athletic nicotine sin. 39 00:01:52,631 --> 00:01:52,831 Brian: Athletic, 40 00:01:53,196 --> 00:01:53,846 Troy: I've got it, 41 00:01:54,966 --> 00:01:57,561 Alex: That's like the athletic greens of nicotine addiction. 42 00:01:57,711 --> 00:01:58,641 Troy: multiple flavor. 43 00:01:58,641 --> 00:02:03,351 And you can see why it would appeal to someone that you're having a product that's an athletic, 44 00:02:03,396 --> 00:02:06,756 Brian: there's a non-alcoholic beer caught athletic too is that's not 45 00:02:06,891 --> 00:02:09,771 Troy: so their slogan, their, their line is taste, victory. 46 00:02:10,296 --> 00:02:11,706 It's just kind of catchy. 47 00:02:12,156 --> 00:02:16,666 And I think they have, they actually had Rick Rubin and Joe Rogan on their website. 48 00:02:16,666 --> 00:02:32,260 I don't know if they're official sponsors, they, they're, it's notable because they have a 1.5, which is very light, and they have a no taste one like I do threes, but you can go up to like nines, like nines are like crazy, crazy. 49 00:02:32,350 --> 00:02:33,280 Threes are nice. 50 00:02:33,670 --> 00:02:35,440 1.5 light, little buzz. 51 00:02:35,980 --> 00:02:36,670 Anyway. 52 00:02:36,770 --> 00:02:37,460 they suck. 53 00:02:38,060 --> 00:02:38,630 They're no good. 54 00:02:40,340 --> 00:02:52,880 I, and I don't mean, you know, good luck to the people that are making them, but the thing is that the packets that enclosed the, the, the, the beautiful powdery nicotine on the zens cannot have not been, you know, beaten. 55 00:02:53,450 --> 00:02:54,560 And these are the best. 56 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:57,375 Alex: And this is the content you guys come here for. 57 00:02:58,005 --> 00:03:03,352 This was our nicotine patch review corner, so don't buy athletic. 58 00:03:03,501 --> 00:03:06,501 Troy: I've struggled with nicotine addiction for a long time, and it, it 59 00:03:06,731 --> 00:03:06,951 Alex: Oh. 60 00:03:07,101 --> 00:03:08,601 Troy: make me feel good about myself. 61 00:03:08,601 --> 00:03:09,351 I, I, 62 00:03:09,599 --> 00:03:10,529 Alex: Me both buddy. 63 00:03:10,941 --> 00:03:11,151 Troy: if 64 00:03:11,256 --> 00:03:11,781 Alex: and me both. 65 00:03:11,901 --> 00:03:17,991 Troy: you, you know that, I, as a, as a boy, I like cigarettes as I got, I'm like Obama, I like a cigarette. 66 00:03:18,591 --> 00:03:23,931 And then I went into the gum phase and I had gum, but there was gum everywhere in my house. 67 00:03:23,961 --> 00:03:28,881 Underneath every surface there was, Jill used to yell at me about gum everywhere. 68 00:03:29,181 --> 00:03:30,111 Then I started hitting the 69 00:03:30,456 --> 00:03:33,366 Alex: I think we lost like a third of our audience just now, but keep going. 70 00:03:33,801 --> 00:03:37,581 Troy: the, but the mince, the mince were nice, but I got so addicted to the mince. 71 00:03:37,581 --> 00:03:40,761 I was doing like a, like, at least a bundle of mince a day. 72 00:03:41,361 --> 00:03:50,151 And the whole problem was, is that I kept, like, when I would go to Europe or when I would like, you know, be like a quiet moment away from the house, I might sneak a cigarette here or there. 73 00:03:50,151 --> 00:03:53,061 So I was always trapped in this addictive cycle. 74 00:03:53,661 --> 00:03:56,721 And these keep me there, but they prevent me from smoking. 75 00:03:56,721 --> 00:04:01,551 The thing is, is that I just need to cut the nicotine habit 'cause it's a 30 year habit. 76 00:04:02,151 --> 00:04:05,509 But, it brings out the best in me, as you've seen in this podcast. 77 00:04:05,554 --> 00:04:06,004 Brian: Yeah. 78 00:04:06,034 --> 00:04:07,324 Well, it's worth it, Troy. 79 00:04:07,924 --> 00:04:13,834 good luck with your addiction, but for now at least it's given you some leverage on the podcast. 80 00:04:13,834 --> 00:04:14,644 YouTuber front. 81 00:04:15,014 --> 00:04:18,104 I wanna start by talking about something that I wrote about in the newsletter. 82 00:04:18,104 --> 00:04:21,644 I'm trying to, in my newsletter, I'm trying to link the two a little bit more. 83 00:04:22,124 --> 00:04:26,684 it was kind of about how tech is creating this alternative media ecosystem. 84 00:04:26,969 --> 00:04:29,249 Slowly but surely it's putting together the pieces. 85 00:04:29,249 --> 00:04:35,949 And, we had talked about this TBPN, the Technology Brothers Programming Network. 86 00:04:36,039 --> 00:04:44,179 and I think it represents something important to where the media business is going, particularly in tech because as we know, everything is downstream of tech. 87 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:57,809 but it's a live streamed three hour YouTube show hosted by entrepreneurs John Coogan and Jordy Hayes Coogan was a co-founder of Soylent, and apparently he was in on some nicotine gum product. 88 00:04:58,019 --> 00:04:58,709 Troy: Loosies. 89 00:04:58,769 --> 00:04:59,159 He did 90 00:04:59,189 --> 00:05:00,449 Brian: Lucy, do you know them? 91 00:05:00,779 --> 00:05:01,364 Troy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 92 00:05:01,769 --> 00:05:02,249 Brian: What are they? 93 00:05:02,249 --> 00:05:02,669 Good? 94 00:05:03,269 --> 00:05:07,019 Troy: No, it's people putting a brand on a product that's inferior. 95 00:05:07,439 --> 00:05:08,844 Brian: Oh my God, nobody would ever do that. 96 00:05:09,444 --> 00:05:11,244 Never, not in DTC. 97 00:05:11,244 --> 00:05:12,024 That would be crazy. 98 00:05:12,354 --> 00:05:15,924 Anyway, TVPN is, it's a fast growing, it's, it's nicely produced. 99 00:05:15,924 --> 00:05:20,514 I think, I see it mostly all over X, which is my addiction. 100 00:05:20,514 --> 00:05:21,894 I don't have a nicotine addiction. 101 00:05:21,894 --> 00:05:23,814 I have, I have an X addiction. 102 00:05:23,966 --> 00:05:26,461 Alex: You still have that, it's probably worse for you than nicotine 103 00:05:26,634 --> 00:05:27,031 actually. 104 00:05:27,466 --> 00:05:28,171 Brian: I'm blowing past. 105 00:05:28,311 --> 00:05:31,006 I'm like, don't remind me until tomorrow. 106 00:05:31,006 --> 00:05:32,056 I'm fine for today. 107 00:05:32,056 --> 00:05:32,536 I can quit 108 00:05:32,536 --> 00:05:33,346 anytime I want. 109 00:05:33,571 --> 00:05:34,891 Troy: those dudes are handsome too. 110 00:05:35,176 --> 00:05:36,196 Brian: Yeah, they're handsome. 111 00:05:36,556 --> 00:05:40,261 And they also have it, it has all the trappings of CNBC. 112 00:05:40,261 --> 00:05:42,991 It has a running ticker, it has multiple tickers. 113 00:05:43,021 --> 00:05:44,251 It has like three tickers. 114 00:05:44,281 --> 00:05:46,951 It has tech, it has all these tech sponsors. 115 00:05:47,301 --> 00:05:53,841 they have, they do this three panel sort of shot where the guest is like in the middle. 116 00:05:53,841 --> 00:05:57,471 And then the two dudes who are handsome are on the sides. 117 00:05:57,681 --> 00:06:05,691 And anytime I see it on XI know I. It's the technology brothers, and I don't know, it's being shoved down my throat or I'm just finding it. 118 00:06:06,111 --> 00:06:09,471 and they have all these, you know, entrepreneur guests and, and whatnot. 119 00:06:09,531 --> 00:06:18,941 And I thought about it, it's kind of in many ways the what all in used to be, it was before it veered into, its Manosphere lane. 120 00:06:19,403 --> 00:06:27,173 but TBPN, like they have, they basically are the tech world's version of CNBC. 121 00:06:27,638 --> 00:06:36,248 And it's like a place where you're not gonna get like hard hitting like interviews or adversarial quote unquote journalism. 122 00:06:36,458 --> 00:06:40,268 I mean, in fact, Coogan was in EIR at Founders Fund. 123 00:06:40,718 --> 00:06:41,198 Okay. 124 00:06:41,198 --> 00:06:47,678 And Founders Fund has, they've already spun out pirate wires, which is another element of this. 125 00:06:48,008 --> 00:06:48,338 Okay. 126 00:06:48,338 --> 00:06:56,138 And then I was looking at other sponsors 'cause I was, wow, you got a lot of sponsors and like half of them are founders fund portfolio companies. 127 00:06:56,138 --> 00:06:57,368 So this is a great model. 128 00:06:57,668 --> 00:06:57,938 Right. 129 00:06:57,938 --> 00:06:59,738 Like, and I think that 130 00:06:59,978 --> 00:07:00,758 it's part, 131 00:07:00,923 --> 00:07:03,083 Troy: your conspiratorial juices flowing. 132 00:07:03,683 --> 00:07:05,183 Brian: it's not, it's not a conspiracy. 133 00:07:05,183 --> 00:07:10,073 I am, I am, I have taken over a room in my house to like, you know, take over the wall. 134 00:07:10,148 --> 00:07:11,348 Troy: it's a media conspiracy. 135 00:07:11,378 --> 00:07:15,488 What you can see is in the product is because they started with sponsors. 136 00:07:15,938 --> 00:07:18,338 They made room for sponsors in the interface. 137 00:07:18,488 --> 00:07:21,308 You can see them all over the, the top one is ramp, 138 00:07:21,773 --> 00:07:22,223 Brian: Yeah. 139 00:07:22,583 --> 00:07:23,813 It's like a nascar. 140 00:07:24,083 --> 00:07:24,623 I love it. 141 00:07:25,170 --> 00:07:26,640 No, we, I, that's, that's my goal. 142 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:27,180 I want to have 143 00:07:27,225 --> 00:07:28,485 Troy: But that skill, Brian. 144 00:07:28,620 --> 00:07:29,670 Brian: company sweatshirt. 145 00:07:30,113 --> 00:07:33,923 I wrote about them and then he like followed me on X. So I think like he's, it, it 146 00:07:34,043 --> 00:07:35,393 Alex: you're even more addicted. 147 00:07:35,812 --> 00:07:38,302 it's crazy that I hadn't heard, heard about it. 148 00:07:38,302 --> 00:07:42,772 I, it's the first time I hear, heard about it was when you guys discussed it as a, as a topic. 149 00:07:43,222 --> 00:07:52,072 But yeah, I, it's funny that the, the format is very CNBC and it maybe shows that, you know, like there's still some valid formats out there. 150 00:07:52,072 --> 00:07:55,252 You just need to change the cost structure and simplify everything. 151 00:07:55,252 --> 00:07:58,192 And it, it can build a, you can build a beautiful media business. 152 00:07:58,192 --> 00:07:58,492 It's not 153 00:07:58,672 --> 00:08:05,002 Brian: Well, well, here's the thing, Alex, you don't only change the cross structure, you change the entire business model. 154 00:08:05,032 --> 00:08:14,512 Necess, like, so this is one of them, but there's a lot of these outlets because to me, this is a typical instance of an arbitrage opportunity. 155 00:08:14,902 --> 00:08:18,352 Media has a tremendous amount of influence. 156 00:08:18,382 --> 00:08:22,552 You know, the influence is high, but the market value is low, and it's never been lower. 157 00:08:22,612 --> 00:08:26,072 Really for, for media it's really difficult, to make money in media. 158 00:08:26,072 --> 00:08:29,492 I don't know if you know that, but traditional journalism is expensive. 159 00:08:29,492 --> 00:08:38,382 It's slow, it's constrained by institutional norms, you know, all this fact checking and nonsense, but still shapes, narratives, sets, agendas. 160 00:08:38,713 --> 00:08:39,817 It gives legitimacy. 161 00:08:39,877 --> 00:08:44,797 I mean, I think that Elon Musk buying X was actually a good investment. 162 00:08:45,257 --> 00:08:54,107 so I think that basically tech is looking at media in order to have a different type of business model. 163 00:08:54,167 --> 00:09:00,707 Now, Andreessen Horowitz is like really deeply involved in the, into the, into this go direct movement. 164 00:09:00,707 --> 00:09:00,917 Right. 165 00:09:00,917 --> 00:09:02,747 And I think this is the updated playbook. 166 00:09:02,957 --> 00:09:06,797 'cause it says it's a media company that just monetizes through investing. 167 00:09:06,917 --> 00:09:07,277 Right. 168 00:09:07,277 --> 00:09:11,957 And I, I know a lot of people kind of use versions of that, but I think there's something there. 169 00:09:12,437 --> 00:09:16,142 I mean, just this week, Andreessen Aqua Hired, Eric 170 00:09:16,392 --> 00:09:18,372 Troy: What do you think of that homepage image? 171 00:09:18,810 --> 00:09:19,680 Brian: I, it's fine. 172 00:09:19,740 --> 00:09:20,520 I, I like it. 173 00:09:20,595 --> 00:09:22,095 Alex: You're talking about the Andreesen side. 174 00:09:22,538 --> 00:09:23,018 Troy: Yeah, 175 00:09:23,290 --> 00:09:23,860 Alex: Yeah, it's got a 176 00:09:23,860 --> 00:09:25,677 big coin with, uh, is it, 177 00:09:25,842 --> 00:09:30,012 Troy: that's American exceptionalism right there in a coin or some kind of golden, 178 00:09:30,062 --> 00:09:31,082 Brian: it like a challenge coin? 179 00:09:31,082 --> 00:09:32,342 I'd like to have one of those. 180 00:09:32,670 --> 00:09:35,370 Alex: yeah, it's maybe a, a, a shit coin. 181 00:09:35,810 --> 00:09:36,110 but yeah. 182 00:09:36,110 --> 00:09:36,440 Sorry, you 183 00:09:36,485 --> 00:09:36,845 Troy: interrupt. 184 00:09:36,845 --> 00:09:38,705 We interrupted your long narrative 185 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:39,620 Alex: I'm trying 186 00:09:39,845 --> 00:09:41,495 Brian: Try I let you do here. 187 00:09:41,825 --> 00:09:43,625 I thought you said you wanted us to prepare. 188 00:09:43,805 --> 00:09:45,688 I prepare a little whole like 189 00:09:45,725 --> 00:09:45,905 Troy: it. 190 00:09:45,905 --> 00:09:47,135 I'm taking it in, man. 191 00:09:47,135 --> 00:09:47,825 I made notes. 192 00:09:47,825 --> 00:09:48,125 Go. 193 00:09:48,734 --> 00:09:49,064 Alex: Yeah. 194 00:09:49,224 --> 00:09:50,394 Brian: it's fucking bullshit. 195 00:09:51,067 --> 00:09:52,934 Alex: After breaking your flow, let this guy cook. 196 00:09:52,934 --> 00:09:53,834 He was just, he just, 197 00:09:54,029 --> 00:09:54,779 Troy: Yeah, he's cooking. 198 00:09:54,929 --> 00:10:02,939 Brian: anyway, I think like, you know, all in showed the way with this because, you know, they, they monetize completely differently than regular media. 199 00:10:02,939 --> 00:10:06,149 And you, you see this in the tech, tech media space. 200 00:10:06,389 --> 00:10:09,899 They kind of gave up on the journalistic side of media. 201 00:10:10,079 --> 00:10:12,689 You know, they used to spend a lot of time working the refs. 202 00:10:12,719 --> 00:10:24,511 Nick Denton was on here, few weeks ago, and he talked about how Mark Andreessen and, and Musk and the others were sending him notes and trying to get him to like, write about this or write about that. 203 00:10:24,571 --> 00:10:26,461 And that was the old way of doing things. 204 00:10:26,861 --> 00:10:31,931 Now it's like we're gonna create our own media, which, you know, Andreessen does. 205 00:10:32,261 --> 00:10:38,171 And now with Turpentine, they'll, they'll control more media, but a lot of times it's using that sort of soft power. 206 00:10:38,171 --> 00:10:40,421 They're backing other kinds of media. 207 00:10:40,601 --> 00:10:42,101 There's friendly media. 208 00:10:42,281 --> 00:10:43,991 The incentives are out there. 209 00:10:43,991 --> 00:10:51,791 If you're on Substack or in a podcast and you know you're friendly enough, you're gonna get the right guests. 210 00:10:51,791 --> 00:10:54,011 And Mark Andreessen, you know, pops up a lot. 211 00:10:54,011 --> 00:10:57,161 He'll, he'll promote it and he'll get a lot of people there. 212 00:10:57,401 --> 00:11:12,001 It's not exactly a new thing, but I think that there are building a really interesting ecosystem, and it's no surprise that the two totems of this are Andreessen Horowitz and Founders Fund, from Peter Thiel. 213 00:11:12,001 --> 00:11:14,461 Those are my, that's my conspiratorial. 214 00:11:14,611 --> 00:11:15,691 I don't think it's conspiracy, I 215 00:11:15,691 --> 00:11:16,861 think it's just out in the open. 216 00:11:17,006 --> 00:11:25,233 Alex: if you take a step back though, isn't it just that, it's just becoming infrastructure, you know, like every company has become a tech company or needs to be a tech company. 217 00:11:25,353 --> 00:11:25,683 Right? 218 00:11:26,283 --> 00:11:29,043 and that every company today needs to also be a media company. 219 00:11:29,103 --> 00:11:30,573 And media is just infrastructure. 220 00:11:30,573 --> 00:11:33,513 As part of building a, a, a, a, a solid company. 221 00:11:33,513 --> 00:11:38,763 It gives you influence, it gives you reach, it gives you access to, to your customer base. 222 00:11:39,063 --> 00:11:47,343 It is 100% what, you know, 50% of our time in our studio is developing media because we want to own the audience. 223 00:11:47,343 --> 00:11:52,113 And we think that by the time we release the game, having an audience is going to be very valuable. 224 00:11:52,593 --> 00:12:03,393 but the fact that they're doing it the way they are being in, in an industry like kind of VC and tech, which is about back scratching and that they're using that playbook, is also not surprising. 225 00:12:04,023 --> 00:12:05,931 You know, but they're good at it too. 226 00:12:05,931 --> 00:12:06,201 Right. 227 00:12:06,801 --> 00:12:18,751 Brian: Yeah, I mean, I think, like from what I've like heard, you know, having, having like a video studio as part of like your setup, in, at tech companies or VC is just the regular, regular thing. 228 00:12:18,811 --> 00:12:27,781 And the fact is, despite the camera troubles that Troy has and, and I do, it's never been more accessible than ever, to do this. 229 00:12:27,781 --> 00:12:32,641 And it's not like they're, they're lacking money and you can buy distribution in lots of places. 230 00:12:33,091 --> 00:12:39,951 And, I think what's interesting is it presents, it takes on a lot of the conventions of. 231 00:12:40,431 --> 00:12:42,111 Sort of traditional media. 232 00:12:42,111 --> 00:12:50,331 Like if you look at the TBPN, it looks like a regular, you know, cable news program. 233 00:12:50,481 --> 00:12:50,841 Right. 234 00:12:50,871 --> 00:12:55,191 And I'm not saying, look, the, the content itself is, is pretty good from what I see. 235 00:12:55,221 --> 00:13:00,741 You know, I haven't watched any three hours of it, but I have seen plenty of clips in it. 236 00:13:00,741 --> 00:13:02,631 And I think that there's a place for this. 237 00:13:02,901 --> 00:13:04,251 I think it's just really difficult. 238 00:13:04,851 --> 00:13:14,181 It, it's, it's yet another participant in this marketplace and you know, it, it's got a, what do they call in Silicon Valley, an orthogonal strategy to it. 239 00:13:14,781 --> 00:13:15,111 Alex: Hmm. 240 00:13:15,441 --> 00:13:16,821 But I, I mean, that's the thing, right? 241 00:13:16,826 --> 00:13:18,471 They, they have an orthogonal strategy. 242 00:13:18,471 --> 00:13:20,091 Their cost structure is completely different. 243 00:13:20,421 --> 00:13:24,891 They record like a ton of, so, you know, they just sit down and start recording video. 244 00:13:24,891 --> 00:13:25,881 There's always news. 245 00:13:25,886 --> 00:13:31,381 They, they have a, a system of bringing people on that are, friendly, right? 246 00:13:31,381 --> 00:13:34,231 And it becomes kind of, and everybody's got different media companies. 247 00:13:34,231 --> 00:13:38,791 So you do kind of that audience capture of bringing people to your podcast. 248 00:13:39,031 --> 00:13:48,301 And then what they have very likely is a group of editors that go in and slice up stuff into little soundbites that addicts like, you get to like, just like gobble up on Twitter. 249 00:13:48,541 --> 00:13:50,431 It's a great, it's a great strategy. 250 00:13:50,431 --> 00:13:50,911 I think. 251 00:13:50,971 --> 00:13:52,861 I think they're doing a great job. 252 00:13:52,861 --> 00:13:54,181 Like I kind of wanna watch it now. 253 00:13:54,181 --> 00:13:57,871 I find it, I find all the tickers and everything really mesmerizing. 254 00:13:58,141 --> 00:13:59,491 I mean, it's very maximalist. 255 00:14:00,091 --> 00:14:01,411 What do you think of the design, Troy? 256 00:14:01,456 --> 00:14:02,506 Brian: It's definitely that. 257 00:14:03,106 --> 00:14:07,876 Troy: well, it looks a little like the Onion News Network, but the, it's the green maybe, 258 00:14:08,222 --> 00:14:08,372 Alex: I 259 00:14:08,372 --> 00:14:10,322 mean, it could be an onion news network thing. 260 00:14:10,532 --> 00:14:14,102 tech bros. Channel 24 7 Tech bros. Just talking about themselves. 261 00:14:14,342 --> 00:14:16,952 Brian: Well, they're, they're owning the tech bros thing, which is fun. 262 00:14:17,177 --> 00:14:17,836 Troy: yeah, they're owning that. 263 00:14:17,836 --> 00:14:18,466 I like that. 264 00:14:18,556 --> 00:14:21,886 a few observations I would have just while you were talking, Brian. 265 00:14:21,886 --> 00:14:24,915 One is they have this skill today. 266 00:14:24,915 --> 00:14:42,107 They talked about Kevin Strom complaining about in court about, Zuckerberg starving Instagram of, financial resources early on, a post-acquisition as sort of testimony to the fact that he was buying a competitor. 267 00:14:42,437 --> 00:14:45,047 They talked about that for like half an hour. 268 00:14:45,647 --> 00:14:46,697 I just talked about it. 269 00:14:46,727 --> 00:14:47,177 That's it. 270 00:14:47,237 --> 00:14:48,647 There's not a lot to talk about. 271 00:14:48,827 --> 00:14:50,897 And so I think that's a great skill. 272 00:14:50,897 --> 00:14:58,727 They do that on, obviously they do that on M-S-N-B-C, on CNBC, on CNN, just people bullshitting endlessly. 273 00:14:58,787 --> 00:15:01,517 This, this kind of skill to just talk, talk, talk. 274 00:15:01,937 --> 00:15:02,237 Which yeah, 275 00:15:02,252 --> 00:15:02,642 Brian: do that. 276 00:15:04,772 --> 00:15:06,872 I saw, I talked for two and a half hours yesterday. 277 00:15:07,052 --> 00:15:07,342 Troy: yeah. 278 00:15:08,042 --> 00:15:08,262 Alex: we 279 00:15:08,267 --> 00:15:09,737 Troy: blah, blah, blah. 280 00:15:09,887 --> 00:15:10,007 I 281 00:15:10,187 --> 00:15:10,374 Alex: blah. 282 00:15:10,532 --> 00:15:11,042 Brian: ever do that? 283 00:15:11,042 --> 00:15:12,122 Two and a half hours straight 284 00:15:12,347 --> 00:15:13,337 Troy: no, so, so they 285 00:15:13,472 --> 00:15:13,644 Alex: Troy. 286 00:15:13,802 --> 00:15:17,632 Troy, do you ever like sit down and pontificate for a long amount of time? 287 00:15:17,792 --> 00:15:19,052 Just going 288 00:15:19,187 --> 00:15:21,467 Troy: I mean, I've been known to try to talk things 289 00:15:21,692 --> 00:15:25,562 Alex: You just, you just started this podcast by talking about Zen for 15 minutes. 290 00:15:26,177 --> 00:15:26,627 Troy: yeah. 291 00:15:27,137 --> 00:15:30,587 The other thing is, is that people are building media businesses on Twitter. 292 00:15:31,187 --> 00:15:34,457 I think they're probably the biggest distribution for these guys is clips on Twitter. 293 00:15:35,057 --> 00:15:35,417 Right. 294 00:15:35,447 --> 00:15:38,777 And, and now their, their ad product is built into the video stream. 295 00:15:39,257 --> 00:15:40,397 It travels on Twitter. 296 00:15:40,397 --> 00:15:41,177 Like Twitter. 297 00:15:41,237 --> 00:15:43,457 Twitter is, is back. 298 00:15:44,057 --> 00:15:45,467 They just traded the audience out. 299 00:15:46,067 --> 00:15:48,207 And, you know, kids love Twitter. 300 00:15:48,277 --> 00:15:52,567 it's the only place, it is really the only meaningful text-based social network. 301 00:15:52,967 --> 00:15:54,257 everybody that counted it out was 302 00:15:54,347 --> 00:15:55,277 Alex: That's crazy. 303 00:15:55,397 --> 00:15:55,577 You're 304 00:15:55,787 --> 00:15:57,257 Troy: It you, you were wrong. 305 00:15:57,497 --> 00:15:58,942 All of the libs were wrong. 306 00:15:59,087 --> 00:15:59,477 Alex: insane. 307 00:15:59,507 --> 00:16:02,957 This is, this is like, this is the moment everyone listening to the podcast. 308 00:16:02,957 --> 00:16:07,937 This is the moment we turn all in and next election cycle, Troy is. 309 00:16:08,492 --> 00:16:11,102 Has some sort of like Twitter czar status. 310 00:16:11,432 --> 00:16:12,632 What are you talking about? 311 00:16:13,232 --> 00:16:13,592 Twitter 312 00:16:13,697 --> 00:16:15,527 Troy: People release news on Twitter. 313 00:16:15,527 --> 00:16:16,967 The government uses Twitter. 314 00:16:16,967 --> 00:16:18,527 The tech bureaus use Twitter. 315 00:16:18,857 --> 00:16:23,477 Like pe My kids use Twitter, pe people like Twitter People Act. 316 00:16:23,477 --> 00:16:24,947 Brian loves Twitter. 317 00:16:25,037 --> 00:16:25,907 I actually 318 00:16:26,117 --> 00:16:26,687 Brian: I hate it. 319 00:16:26,687 --> 00:16:27,647 I, I'm addicted to 320 00:16:27,677 --> 00:16:28,517 Troy: It doesn't matter. 321 00:16:28,547 --> 00:16:29,387 It doesn't matter. 322 00:16:29,837 --> 00:16:33,557 Brian uses Twitter and regrets it, but he uses it 323 00:16:33,842 --> 00:16:34,362 Brian: called x. 324 00:16:34,382 --> 00:16:38,312 Alex: I, I don't think Twitter is, I don't think Twitter is dead. 325 00:16:38,402 --> 00:16:41,702 I'm, no, I refuse to call it XI don't, I don't think Twitter is dead. 326 00:16:42,062 --> 00:16:49,712 I think it's, it's, it's probably doing fine, but there is more, there are more options today than ever and every one of these guys on every single network. 327 00:16:50,042 --> 00:16:54,452 Twitter definitely has its pockets of like, especially people who have built 328 00:16:54,497 --> 00:16:56,927 Troy: Twitter is still massively influential. 329 00:16:56,927 --> 00:16:58,467 There's always gonna be, you 330 00:16:58,752 --> 00:17:03,682 Alex: Traffic was down and, and, but, but I would say like for these guys, like. 331 00:17:04,282 --> 00:17:07,882 This is, this is, this is not a Twitter success story. 332 00:17:07,882 --> 00:17:09,742 This is like a YouTube success story. 333 00:17:09,742 --> 00:17:11,752 This stuff is like this stuff. 334 00:17:11,902 --> 00:17:13,402 YouTube is so huge. 335 00:17:13,402 --> 00:17:16,792 It's the everything network, all these shorts and everything like that that are happening on 336 00:17:17,202 --> 00:17:22,147 Troy: I, I agree that that YouTube's big part of the formula, but distribution on Twitter is really important. 337 00:17:22,387 --> 00:17:25,537 If you look, look, look at, look at the number of subscribers 338 00:17:25,687 --> 00:17:26,782 Alex: a, it's a part of it. 339 00:17:26,812 --> 00:17:27,562 It's a part of 340 00:17:27,637 --> 00:17:29,797 Troy: Hey buddy, why don't you do this? 341 00:17:30,127 --> 00:17:35,032 They've got 5,000 subscribers on, on, YouTube, it's nothing. 342 00:17:35,302 --> 00:17:38,152 Now go pop over to X and look at the brothers. 343 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:39,534 Brian: the technology brothers, 344 00:17:39,654 --> 00:17:39,864 Troy: Yeah. 345 00:17:39,864 --> 00:17:40,944 Are they actually brothers? 346 00:17:41,334 --> 00:17:41,874 Brian: no. 347 00:17:42,084 --> 00:17:42,534 Alex: No, 348 00:17:42,890 --> 00:17:43,610 Brian: You know, brothers. 349 00:17:44,450 --> 00:17:46,010 Alex: they have 50,000 'em next. 350 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:46,760 Brian: Brothers. 351 00:17:47,060 --> 00:17:47,527 Like with a, with an 352 00:17:48,260 --> 00:17:51,020 Troy: So, so, so they have 10, 10 times the distribution on 353 00:17:51,260 --> 00:17:52,820 Alex: But look, let's look at some tweets. 354 00:17:52,820 --> 00:17:54,350 Let's look at some tweets like. 355 00:17:54,845 --> 00:17:57,485 Like you, you're talking out of your ass. 356 00:17:58,085 --> 00:17:59,975 This got like seven re this is 357 00:17:59,975 --> 00:18:00,815 like two hours, 358 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:01,850 Troy: as Brian would say, 359 00:18:04,085 --> 00:18:09,995 Alex: but, but it's like they've got 20, they've got 20 retweets for something they posted 18 hours ago. 360 00:18:10,295 --> 00:18:12,245 I don't know what their distribution is, but 361 00:18:12,260 --> 00:18:13,700 Troy: Hey, hey Alex. 362 00:18:13,700 --> 00:18:14,855 I'm not talking outta my ass. 363 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:17,960 They have 58 people watching it on YouTube right now. 364 00:18:19,595 --> 00:18:21,935 Alex: it maybe we're just talking about something that nobody's watching. 365 00:18:22,490 --> 00:18:22,790 Troy: Yeah. 366 00:18:23,870 --> 00:18:24,710 Brian: It could be. 367 00:18:24,980 --> 00:18:25,850 It could be. 368 00:18:26,030 --> 00:18:37,880 But like, here's the thing, it's like they are getting like the, they are getting like real guests on here and it is, I think, look, you can buy distribution like, right? 369 00:18:37,910 --> 00:18:46,475 Like I think in some ways I. Carlos Watson was, was on to something like, you know, he was creating, he was creating, he was just ahead of his time with, you know, 370 00:18:46,475 --> 00:18:47,645 the media entity that he 371 00:18:47,649 --> 00:18:50,465 Alex: these, I mean, so this is, this is a great topic actually. 372 00:18:50,532 --> 00:18:51,262 Troy: This is good. 373 00:18:51,476 --> 00:18:53,846 Alex: tech has a group of successful people. 374 00:18:53,846 --> 00:18:54,086 Right? 375 00:18:54,476 --> 00:19:02,606 I don't think, I don't think CEOs and founders outside of tech has have ever had the status of being celebrities, but we know for a 376 00:19:02,606 --> 00:19:10,196 fact that bringing on some of these, CEOs on your podcast will make your Zuckerberg happening, appearing on your podcast. 377 00:19:10,495 --> 00:19:13,033 Brian, Chesky, my old boss appearing on a podcast. 378 00:19:13,183 --> 00:19:15,763 It brings an audience with it because all of these guys are huge 379 00:19:15,928 --> 00:19:17,518 Troy: Maybe we can get 'em on our podcast 380 00:19:18,013 --> 00:19:21,253 Alex: Well, you know, I haven't been trying not to use like my, you 381 00:19:21,358 --> 00:19:21,808 Troy: Yeah. 382 00:19:21,868 --> 00:19:22,048 No, 383 00:19:22,243 --> 00:19:22,663 Alex: people out. 384 00:19:22,723 --> 00:19:23,383 Maybe I should. 385 00:19:23,593 --> 00:19:24,216 Maybe I should. 386 00:19:24,433 --> 00:19:25,063 Maybe I should, 387 00:19:25,108 --> 00:19:26,188 Brian: that would be a terrible idea. 388 00:19:26,368 --> 00:19:26,698 Troy: it's 389 00:19:26,803 --> 00:19:26,893 Alex: a 390 00:19:26,893 --> 00:19:28,303 great model, like, you know. 391 00:19:28,468 --> 00:19:32,638 Troy: but Alex, while you're at it though, it's interesting to look at the, at the distribution formula. 392 00:19:32,638 --> 00:19:35,908 'cause there isn't a single video on YouTube that has more than 2000 views. 393 00:19:36,628 --> 00:19:36,868 Okay. 394 00:19:36,868 --> 00:19:39,628 So, so, so it's, it's pretty, pretty niche on YouTube. 395 00:19:39,898 --> 00:19:41,878 If you go here, they have 50,000 followers. 396 00:19:41,878 --> 00:19:45,418 I don't know what the reach is on a post, but it doesn't look like it's massive. 397 00:19:45,658 --> 00:19:48,238 They're doing, they're pretty aggressive on Instagram. 398 00:19:48,268 --> 00:19:49,798 Would you mind flipping over to Instagram 399 00:19:49,993 --> 00:19:50,359 Alex: Yep. 400 00:19:50,945 --> 00:19:52,295 PN live on Instagram. 401 00:19:52,713 --> 00:19:54,153 Brian: Look, it's very well produced. 402 00:19:54,663 --> 00:19:54,873 I guess. 403 00:19:54,873 --> 00:19:55,743 It's easy to do these 404 00:19:56,103 --> 00:19:56,253 Troy: They 405 00:19:56,253 --> 00:19:56,433 have 406 00:19:56,463 --> 00:19:56,753 Alex: four 407 00:19:56,793 --> 00:19:57,213 Brian: Little too 408 00:19:57,213 --> 00:19:57,753 close up. 409 00:19:57,798 --> 00:19:58,008 Alex: They have 410 00:19:58,233 --> 00:19:58,683 Troy: no 411 00:19:58,833 --> 00:19:58,923 I 412 00:19:59,268 --> 00:20:00,558 Alex: What are we talking about here? 413 00:20:01,188 --> 00:20:02,748 Maybe we're TikTok. 414 00:20:02,823 --> 00:20:03,393 Troy: What? 415 00:20:03,961 --> 00:20:09,361 Alex: You see this is like, it's, it's outsized influence because you're just bringing people on Dev. 416 00:20:09,631 --> 00:20:12,061 2200 70,000 followers on TikTok. 417 00:20:12,241 --> 00:20:14,521 So this is something we should really look into. 418 00:20:15,121 --> 00:20:16,291 Troy: how old is this brand? 419 00:20:16,291 --> 00:20:17,101 How long they been in 420 00:20:17,266 --> 00:20:20,796 Brian: So they started doing it daily, I think, in January. 421 00:20:21,106 --> 00:20:23,896 Cogan just left Founders fun as 422 00:20:23,896 --> 00:20:25,216 Z-E-I-E-I-R. 423 00:20:25,336 --> 00:20:26,446 But this is, so this is it. 424 00:20:26,446 --> 00:20:28,876 So you have very little of a footprint, right? 425 00:20:28,876 --> 00:20:29,866 This is what I'm talking about. 426 00:20:29,866 --> 00:20:29,986 Yeah. 427 00:20:29,986 --> 00:20:32,926 I don't wanna, they used to call it AstroTurf media, right? 428 00:20:32,926 --> 00:20:36,526 Where it's just becomes, it's just, you know, RT and whatnot. 429 00:20:36,526 --> 00:20:40,546 Like, you just like set up things that look like media, but actually is something else. 430 00:20:40,546 --> 00:20:50,506 I'm not saying that this is, you know, that, but it's kind of like this version where it looks completely like, you know, regular startup media, but no, it's not. 431 00:20:50,866 --> 00:20:59,866 This is, this was incubated out of a venture capital fund and so all of a sudden you, I look at all of those sponsors and I was like, oh my God. 432 00:21:00,496 --> 00:21:01,066 Wow. 433 00:21:01,276 --> 00:21:03,286 Like this is like, this is like a big thing. 434 00:21:03,336 --> 00:21:09,871 Troy: The guy on the left though looks like he's gonna star on a show about a banker that becomes a serial killer. 435 00:21:11,335 --> 00:21:12,865 Brian: I think that's the soy link guy. 436 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:16,300 Alex: It just like there's not even enough data on Google Trends to have them. 437 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:17,200 This is it. 438 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:19,660 I mean, I think it's a very, but here's the interesting thing. 439 00:21:19,660 --> 00:21:31,270 I think this is a very insular, kind of, group of people that can get each other on the podcast because the entire VC and tech industry is about this kind of back scratching 440 00:21:31,405 --> 00:21:35,005 Brian: a lot of industries are about this and I guess I think about it a lot 'cause I was talking to like a 441 00:21:35,095 --> 00:21:36,235 Alex: No other industry. 442 00:21:36,265 --> 00:21:47,832 No Brian, no Under industry has, a kind of, such a wide network of people with that footprint, with like clear success stories to talk about with like media savvyness and stuff. 443 00:21:47,832 --> 00:21:51,426 Like we're not seeing the petroleum com, petroleum industry do this. 444 00:21:51,426 --> 00:21:53,166 We're not seeing the car industry do this. 445 00:21:53,166 --> 00:21:54,846 We're not seeing any other industry do this. 446 00:21:54,936 --> 00:21:56,766 We're not even seeing the media industry do this. 447 00:21:56,766 --> 00:21:58,656 And you guys love to talk about yourselves. 448 00:21:59,269 --> 00:21:59,359 I 449 00:21:59,434 --> 00:21:59,644 Brian: That's 450 00:21:59,719 --> 00:22:00,619 Troy: Oh, that's true. 451 00:22:00,619 --> 00:22:01,309 Thank Guilty. 452 00:22:01,609 --> 00:22:04,099 Hey, Brian, I guess we're in the media industry. 453 00:22:04,099 --> 00:22:10,602 uh, the, the thing is, is that per just an observation, so this is a nascent. 454 00:22:11,548 --> 00:22:12,748 Media startup. 455 00:22:12,958 --> 00:22:16,018 Really nice idea unfolding in public. 456 00:22:16,318 --> 00:22:19,348 As I've said many times, everybody in media lies. 457 00:22:19,648 --> 00:22:26,128 Typically what you would do at this stage of the development of the company is talk about how big you are and grow into that, right? 458 00:22:26,128 --> 00:22:32,878 Except that you live on platforms, so everything is transparent, and you can see that there's not a tremendous amount of distribution across any of the channels. 459 00:22:33,298 --> 00:22:39,058 The thing is, is this format of two guys talking about Kevin's system for a half an hour is really boring. 460 00:22:39,658 --> 00:22:52,378 Like the, the, you know, transplanting the sort of CNBC format onto YouTube in a live thing with account, it, it's really hard to get audience and to kind of amass it into a kind of time and place. 461 00:22:52,618 --> 00:23:00,808 So you then rely on the editing and the cutting and the distribution across other, other channels, and hopefully that's how you kind of realize the potential of the brand. 462 00:23:00,813 --> 00:23:02,190 And it hasn't happened yet. 463 00:23:02,788 --> 00:23:03,718 Brian: Well, I, I keep fine. 464 00:23:03,718 --> 00:23:07,618 It hasn't happened yet, but like, let's, let us remember Cheddar, okay? 465 00:23:07,618 --> 00:23:08,488 Just for a moment, 466 00:23:08,728 --> 00:23:09,658 let us remember. 467 00:23:11,188 --> 00:23:14,428 No Cheddar, cheddar sold for, let me get how 468 00:23:14,518 --> 00:23:15,388 much Cheddar sold for 469 00:23:16,513 --> 00:23:17,188 million. 470 00:23:17,278 --> 00:23:24,368 Like John is the best salesperson in the world, next to his dad, who apparently is the best real estate salesperson in the history of Manhattan. 471 00:23:24,948 --> 00:23:25,863 do you know Cheddar? 472 00:23:25,963 --> 00:23:27,313 we must have talked about it before 473 00:23:27,493 --> 00:23:28,303 Alex: I know Cheddar. 474 00:23:28,303 --> 00:23:28,993 I just, I, I 475 00:23:29,138 --> 00:23:30,463 Troy: Yeah, you probably saw it at the 476 00:23:30,463 --> 00:23:30,763 gas 477 00:23:30,913 --> 00:23:31,813 Alex: all those, I got 478 00:23:31,918 --> 00:23:32,136 Brian: That. 479 00:23:32,158 --> 00:23:32,548 Thank you. 480 00:23:32,548 --> 00:23:33,598 I was part of that. 481 00:23:33,883 --> 00:23:40,573 anyway, it was, it was basically trying to create this kind of cable news network for the distributed world. 482 00:23:40,633 --> 00:23:45,253 I mean, they didn't like start off on, on YouTube, which was probably a mistake. 483 00:23:45,303 --> 00:23:47,943 they just tried to go on all platforms, particularly Twitter. 484 00:23:48,363 --> 00:23:52,083 anyway, I think you're gonna see more of these kind of things because name's Cheddar. 485 00:23:52,083 --> 00:23:52,713 There's Cheddar. 486 00:23:53,333 --> 00:23:55,673 yeah, the logo for Cheddar is also Swiss too. 487 00:23:55,673 --> 00:23:56,993 That was also a tell, but it 488 00:23:56,993 --> 00:24:04,883 Alex: But, but I wanna, I wanna call out like the, the format, you know, Troy was kind of blaming that, that format, the format does work. 489 00:24:04,883 --> 00:24:15,083 I mean, if you look at like, you know, political pundit slash gamer, destiny and Hassan and these types of guys, this is what they do. 490 00:24:15,083 --> 00:24:20,483 They sit at a computer and they just pontificate about like, whatever else they've got. 491 00:24:20,483 --> 00:24:25,733 Like, I mean, you know, they've got this kind of crazy chat going on and, you know, 492 00:24:25,958 --> 00:24:28,998 Troy: are different kinds of guys, Alex, that's a different kind of format really, 493 00:24:29,235 --> 00:24:34,470 Alex: is it though, I mean, are they not just trying to transplant that format of like, just like, talking it 494 00:24:34,470 --> 00:24:40,230 Troy: me it's not something reminiscent of CNBC, which is a sort of news-based, talking heads thing. 495 00:24:40,590 --> 00:24:41,550 It's opinion. 496 00:24:42,150 --> 00:24:43,560 It's more like Rush Limbaugh. 497 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:53,340 And I think that that kind of format works and it works as an audio product and, and then it, you know, people watch it, you know, either sort of half tuned in or not on, on YouTube. 498 00:24:53,940 --> 00:24:54,780 Brian: all right, let's leave it there. 499 00:24:54,780 --> 00:24:56,520 Let's move on to the chaos economy. 500 00:24:56,580 --> 00:24:58,110 Troy, this is your time to shine. 501 00:24:58,500 --> 00:25:00,390 tell us what you're seeing in the chaos economy. 502 00:25:01,260 --> 00:25:05,747 Troy: Well, it was a really, you know, well, maybe I can combine good product into this, Brian, if you would. 503 00:25:06,100 --> 00:25:08,200 I mean, it was a beau, it was a beautiful day in Brooklyn, 504 00:25:08,620 --> 00:25:12,070 Brian: Of course I've heard this like from like everyone in New York City. 505 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:14,715 It's like, there's one good day and like you, you, you, 506 00:25:14,740 --> 00:25:15,053 Troy: a couple 507 00:25:15,070 --> 00:25:22,420 of 'em, Brian, and it's, you know, it's sort of, you know, God's country when it's a beautiful spring day and people are out getting pastries and 508 00:25:23,130 --> 00:25:24,220 Alex: It's never God's country. 509 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:24,940 I'm sorry. 510 00:25:25,648 --> 00:25:25,978 Troy: Okay. 511 00:25:26,788 --> 00:25:29,488 So maybe that was a little bit of a detour. 512 00:25:29,848 --> 00:25:35,848 I was walking around and I, you know, using, you know, I was on the internet and then I was on the street and I was thinking, you know, there's. 513 00:25:36,088 --> 00:25:39,658 An insane amount of innovation in this country. 514 00:25:40,258 --> 00:25:52,348 And there, you know, you were, you, you're sort of simultaneously trying to process this insane macro narrative, which is, you know, Trump is destroying the country. 515 00:25:52,648 --> 00:25:56,578 You know, tariffs are gonna suffocate, you know, companies large and small. 516 00:25:57,008 --> 00:25:58,538 all of which may be true by the way. 517 00:25:58,638 --> 00:26:01,758 and that, that, you know, we're heading for, for a cliff. 518 00:26:01,818 --> 00:26:16,188 And then you, you see on the other hand, just like this is like Hustle Nation, you know, like there is, there's something like you can, this is the most resilient country, you know, because 519 00:26:16,188 --> 00:26:27,348 under, and, and, and it just got me wondering like, are we approaching a kind of very new industrial sort of innovation structure where I. 520 00:26:27,948 --> 00:26:31,998 You know, it doesn't matter if Harvard isn't doing basic research. 521 00:26:32,298 --> 00:26:45,998 It doesn't matter if we've, you know, kind of, strangled, you know, Walmart's, you know, business in selling low-cost Chinese products to people, we will just kind of soldier on. 522 00:26:45,998 --> 00:26:52,568 And there's a really fundamentally new kind of ingredient in the economy, which is ai. 523 00:26:53,168 --> 00:27:04,738 And it's empowering people to, in a very kind of micro fashion, to kind of build, to create like, you know, all the, the theory that used to exist about corporations. 524 00:27:04,738 --> 00:27:06,088 Why do they exist? 525 00:27:06,118 --> 00:27:11,368 Because they, they're more efficient than markets in making decisions, in moving information. 526 00:27:11,368 --> 00:27:13,048 They internalized trust. 527 00:27:13,288 --> 00:27:15,208 Everything is in a negotiation. 528 00:27:15,598 --> 00:27:23,458 It made me wonder if, like, the fundamental structure of corporations isn't changing to a, you know, smaller, more nimble. 529 00:27:23,908 --> 00:27:34,438 Kind of entity empowered by technology and that the fundamental kind of modern reality of media, which is people and platforms, right? 530 00:27:34,468 --> 00:27:42,118 These great big platforms that allow you to create, distribute, kind of manufacture any type of media isn't coming to the 531 00:27:42,118 --> 00:27:50,784 rest of the economy where we can use all of this crazy technology at an individual or, you know, small group kinda level. 532 00:27:51,086 --> 00:28:04,856 that we're, you know, kind of in a new period where we're just gonna see a, a new wave of, of growth and innovation powered in the most distributed way that will apply to kind of virtually every industry. 533 00:28:05,456 --> 00:28:13,706 And even though it feels completely chaotic out there, you have this kind of economy that lives inside of the chaos. 534 00:28:13,766 --> 00:28:25,316 This, that where people are, you know, kind of imp like everybody's kind of entrepreneurial and everybody has access to incredible tools and people are building new things. 535 00:28:25,376 --> 00:28:28,226 And, and so that, that's what I was wondering about. 536 00:28:28,706 --> 00:28:34,606 And you know, I'll leave it there and then I have a kind of related thing, but to me it started in media. 537 00:28:34,606 --> 00:28:45,106 We see it in retail, we see it in EDU education and, and are we gonna see it in industry where new types of factories kind of, you know. 538 00:28:45,706 --> 00:28:52,726 Provide AWS like capabilities to entrepreneurs that wanna make things that are powered by kind of machines and robotics. 539 00:28:53,236 --> 00:29:03,056 And, and I think that's the big fear right now is that that particular capability of atoms, of creating, you know, physical things has been lost in this country. 540 00:29:03,056 --> 00:29:10,826 And there's no kind of, you know, capability to, to, to kind of create the atoms space side of there's no platform for atoms 541 00:29:10,826 --> 00:29:17,486 in this country that, that needs to get fixed and that some type of industrial policy has to kind of figure that out. 542 00:29:17,486 --> 00:29:21,701 But, you know, there are things that need big coordination, right? 543 00:29:21,956 --> 00:29:27,666 You know, transportation, you know, military, maybe home building, stuff like that. 544 00:29:27,666 --> 00:29:37,176 But there's a lot of things that are just gonna like rocket forward because of this tremendous in, in, in innovation potential of AI connected to platforms. 545 00:29:37,686 --> 00:29:39,876 And so, so that was my, my thought on that. 546 00:29:40,358 --> 00:29:41,024 Alex: there's a lot there. 547 00:29:41,024 --> 00:29:52,594 I mean, I think what, what maybe you're talking about is that it's, no longer linear, you know, and that, it used to be that you used to go into field and had a clear path in front of 548 00:29:52,594 --> 00:30:02,694 you and, that the industry and opportunities that the country would provide were clearly laid out in front of you, so that if you went down a path of getting educated, because you 549 00:30:02,694 --> 00:30:14,054 mentioned universities and getting proficient at something, you could go down this, this, path and then the country would get better at, better at, say, building cars or airplanes, et cetera. 550 00:30:14,324 --> 00:30:21,824 And it now feels much more chaotic and non-linear because, you know, industry has been not only shipped out, but will. 551 00:30:22,229 --> 00:30:23,339 Get automated. 552 00:30:23,739 --> 00:30:25,389 and and yeah, exactly. 553 00:30:25,389 --> 00:30:30,039 Turned into like an a Amazon AWS that provided service for everyone who wanted to build a tool. 554 00:30:30,249 --> 00:30:34,899 Now maybe you can just start printing out, you know, physical products out of that. 555 00:30:35,169 --> 00:30:47,109 And the fact that you started off in one career path and ended up, you know, selling custom ashtrays, that are manufactured 3D printed somewhere is just a path that people are gonna take. 556 00:30:47,109 --> 00:30:55,329 And that's going to not only apply to individuals, you know, starting businesses, but also, potentially like industries as a whole. 557 00:30:55,419 --> 00:31:00,999 And so it feels kind of messy right now, but it maybe isn't that bad because AI is gonna save us. 558 00:31:01,599 --> 00:31:04,284 Brian: Yeah, I've noticed like an interesting thing, about that. 559 00:31:04,344 --> 00:31:09,414 'cause I think that the pendulum is kind of swinging back towards, you know, small versus big. 560 00:31:09,414 --> 00:31:13,284 'cause it, it was always like if you were starting something new, people would say, well, how many people are you? 561 00:31:13,314 --> 00:31:13,374 Yeah. 562 00:31:13,854 --> 00:31:22,674 Like, and it was always, the idea was the more the, the number it that was bigger, that meant like it was, you were more successful. 563 00:31:23,064 --> 00:31:27,444 And so I, I feel like that is changing, like, to some degree. 564 00:31:27,654 --> 00:31:37,365 like, you know, I had a, I had a podcast conversation with Janice Min, who she was behind, like the rise of Us Weekly in the, two thousands. 565 00:31:37,365 --> 00:31:41,895 And then she took over Hollywood Reporter and, and did, its like reinvention. 566 00:31:42,235 --> 00:31:44,815 she's like very well known in the magazine world, right. 567 00:31:44,875 --> 00:31:52,335 And she, she's now running the Anchor, which is, it's on Substack, you know, and they have like 14 people. 568 00:31:52,515 --> 00:32:06,005 And she had said basically that, you know, the game now is about, about like how, how, how, like lean you can, you can be for as long as, as you can. 569 00:32:06,565 --> 00:32:11,785 and I think that is like changing because you have, and I think it's just at the, the start of it. 570 00:32:11,785 --> 00:32:23,845 I know for myself it's, you know, when I read a lot of, like Barack Obama was, was out talking about ai, which is always like interesting when, you know, the politicians are talking about to see how they frame it. 571 00:32:24,145 --> 00:32:28,825 You know, he's a master communicator and he was like sounding basically the alarm. 572 00:32:28,825 --> 00:32:34,915 And he was doing it with, with, and we'll talk about this a little bit later, but with analogies about the automation that came to manufacturing. 573 00:32:34,915 --> 00:32:41,205 And that obviously had a major impact on, employment there and that at coming to just about every area. 574 00:32:41,235 --> 00:32:47,410 And, you know, people go to like Cody now and how, it, it is, it is evaporating those jobs. 575 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:53,050 I mean, bill Gates was, was saying, you know, I, nobody even flinches at these things now. 576 00:32:53,050 --> 00:32:57,220 He was talk, talking about doctors and teachers being replaced by AI in 10 years, 577 00:32:57,717 --> 00:33:05,597 Troy: And, but I guess if you look at it and, and you know, I apologize that my thesis isn't crisply articulated, but the, small teams are building planes. 578 00:33:06,197 --> 00:33:12,597 New companies are creating new types of, you know, really important companies in the defense industry, like Andel. 579 00:33:13,197 --> 00:33:18,057 all kinds of small businesses are creating and challenging packaged goods companies. 580 00:33:18,057 --> 00:33:20,837 We've seen that, of course, with DTC people. 581 00:33:20,837 --> 00:33:29,297 Alex, if you look up on YouTube, are 3D printing the most amazing things like, you know, gaming, peripherals and like crazy stuff. 582 00:33:29,297 --> 00:33:31,697 People are making it, you know, in their houses. 583 00:33:32,207 --> 00:33:45,557 and, and then you, you, you look a little further and you're like, wait, Foxconn, the company that makes and assembles iPhones is about to turn, is about to make cars. 584 00:33:46,157 --> 00:33:57,677 And they're gonna look like, you know, conceivably had it not been for this, you know, kind of tension between the US and, China, you would see like, why can't they make a car for Apple? 585 00:33:58,277 --> 00:34:01,037 Why can't they make a car for somebody else who wants to make a car? 586 00:34:01,999 --> 00:34:15,719 you know, the production of something that is a major driver of the industrial economy is being created by a company that puts, you know, boards together with batteries and screens, primarily driven by software. 587 00:34:16,319 --> 00:34:25,199 And you, you know, you gotta look at it and wonder if it wasn't, you know, abandoning whatever kind of approach they took to the, you know, their entry into the automotive 588 00:34:25,199 --> 00:34:36,839 industry beyond just CarPlay that all of these firms, Zomi, Huawei, Alibaba, and Baidu are in some shape or form building automobiles. 589 00:34:37,439 --> 00:34:42,869 Chinese technology firms that previously made, you know, mobile phones 590 00:34:43,469 --> 00:34:45,674 or other types of software products. 591 00:34:46,079 --> 00:34:47,789 Alex: Yeah, it's, it's all true. 592 00:34:48,337 --> 00:34:57,967 I feel that the, the change is happening, which is, you know, like more distribute, more ways to distribute, which we, which we've talked about, about, but now also more ways to get things into 593 00:34:57,967 --> 00:35:08,537 production is really benefiting small industries, or small startups, because it's much easier to apply those changes to certain types of products. 594 00:35:08,897 --> 00:35:17,923 But the one thing that will come in between that, you know, where we are today in Utopia, is the fact that all of that production capacity lies in China. 595 00:35:18,283 --> 00:35:21,613 And that's a huge, I think geopolitical risk long term. 596 00:35:21,613 --> 00:35:33,523 Because, you know, Troy, you still need to build big airplanes and big ships and big buildings and big factories and, and all of that stuff is, is, 597 00:35:33,523 --> 00:35:35,743 Troy: Those are the, the physical platforms that you need. 598 00:35:35,743 --> 00:35:36,163 Alex, I 599 00:35:36,298 --> 00:35:37,138 think we, 600 00:35:37,243 --> 00:35:42,553 we, we own, we own the communication platforms, but we don't own the physical platforms. 601 00:35:43,138 --> 00:35:53,968 Alex: The communication platforms are easy to replace because at some point, you know, you just need to turn off the internet on your side of the country and launch your whole own internet, which China did, right? 602 00:35:54,388 --> 00:35:58,348 And so it's, it's, it's not a very defensible position to be in. 603 00:35:58,353 --> 00:36:11,578 And, and the West and America specifically has been kinda building this service IP communication, media based industry, that is, you know, now at risk of not looking as, 604 00:36:11,957 --> 00:36:14,597 there is like this utopian world where you have. 605 00:36:15,287 --> 00:36:19,397 Lot of, a lot of the knowledge work that can be done with ai, so a small team can do that. 606 00:36:19,607 --> 00:36:25,557 Then we have all the means of distri, of distribution and communication that are your fingertips. 607 00:36:25,557 --> 00:36:30,177 And now the means of production where you can outsource things big and small. 608 00:36:30,177 --> 00:36:35,657 You know, friend of mine gets like custom PCBs done so that you can build these custom computers. 609 00:36:35,927 --> 00:36:37,967 They come back from China, they're amazing. 610 00:36:38,277 --> 00:36:40,377 and you could absolutely also build a car, right? 611 00:36:40,377 --> 00:36:43,737 The infrastructure for building cars as platform is available. 612 00:36:43,767 --> 00:36:47,397 It's in China right now, which is why there's like an explosion of electric cars. 613 00:36:47,967 --> 00:36:56,112 All of the issues that we're gonna face, all the down, the, the, the headwinds that we're gonna face seem to be geopolitical because you just need to turn that faucet off. 614 00:36:56,112 --> 00:37:05,622 Like if, if AWS was, Amazon's AWS which to people might not know is where, you know, a lot of the internet hosts their sites and it's, it's, it's compute on demand. 615 00:37:05,922 --> 00:37:10,752 If that was a Chinese company, You would always be at risk of that stuff being turned off. 616 00:37:10,782 --> 00:37:14,282 And, I think that's going to severely slow down this, 617 00:37:14,803 --> 00:37:17,308 Troy: Yeah, which is kind of my point about this chaos economy. 618 00:37:17,308 --> 00:37:22,048 I think in the, in the innovation space, in the chaos space, we're, we're going to, we're gonna do really well. 619 00:37:22,438 --> 00:37:25,798 I think the American economy is really well suited to that type of innovation. 620 00:37:25,798 --> 00:37:33,863 But when you need big, coordinated things, that require industrial policy and potentially public investment and lots 621 00:37:33,868 --> 00:37:41,678 of coordination, whether that's roads or military or transportation or, you know, healthcare things we're, we're terrible at it. 622 00:37:42,068 --> 00:37:45,908 Brian: Well, I mean, this is the centralized versus decentralized you, right? 623 00:37:45,908 --> 00:37:51,488 I mean, we, like America is Android, I mean, and, and China is, is Apple to a degree. 624 00:37:51,488 --> 00:37:56,918 I mean, that's like a top down system and you know, we're, we're not, we never will be. 625 00:37:57,518 --> 00:38:10,630 Troy: I wonder about, by the way, related to this and, and I think this might make you cringe, but this won't be the first time or the, last, the, you know, Elon's got a problem because he, he fucked up the Tesla brand. 626 00:38:11,230 --> 00:38:14,620 Maybe Apple could take it off his hands and then they'd be in the car business. 627 00:38:15,150 --> 00:38:15,630 Alex: they could. 628 00:38:15,690 --> 00:38:16,350 That's an exit. 629 00:38:16,950 --> 00:38:29,850 Brian: I just to, to put a point on, on that, just not in the car economy, but windsurf, the coding assistant, I guess OpenAI is looking to buy it for 3 billion 170 employees. 630 00:38:30,435 --> 00:38:37,312 Alex: and they tried to acquire Cursor, which is probably the leader in the field of like AI programming and, cursor refuse. 631 00:38:37,312 --> 00:38:39,112 So Windsurf is the next best thing. 632 00:38:39,622 --> 00:38:42,309 yeah, a hundred million dollars, in revenue. 633 00:38:42,909 --> 00:38:48,049 For a company that's small, there is a lot of, there is a lot of money to be made right now. 634 00:38:48,484 --> 00:38:48,964 Troy: What is that? 635 00:38:48,964 --> 00:38:50,914 10 to $15 million in employee? 636 00:38:51,514 --> 00:38:51,904 Alex: yeah, 637 00:38:52,009 --> 00:38:52,459 Troy: nice. 638 00:38:53,135 --> 00:39:05,985 Brian: I mean, this is, this is the sort of new math I guess, that can exist in some of these kinds of companies in the sort of knowledge outside of the, the bits, the actual, you know, the Adams space, 639 00:39:06,158 --> 00:39:19,658 Alex: the, the paradox with these types of movements is that the, the fact that you can kind of generate so much revenue so efficiently means that there's going to be so many competitors and that revenue is going to be peanut butter. 640 00:39:20,198 --> 00:39:21,158 Throughout that, right? 641 00:39:21,158 --> 00:39:29,108 Like through the first movers, get a huge advantage of showing like the efficiency and, and you know, the same way when you were moving first 642 00:39:29,108 --> 00:39:35,768 into YouTube or podcasting, you got there early with your team of two and all of a sudden your podcast was making, you know, $10 million a year. 643 00:39:36,128 --> 00:39:47,428 I think, we're gonna have these like, you know, small teams creating artisanal state software that generates a lot of revenue, but it's going to get a lot of copycats. 644 00:39:47,548 --> 00:39:57,358 Like it's, and, and, and somebody's going to figure out how to do it with three people and how to, you know, provide the service for, for $8 versus $9. 645 00:39:57,638 --> 00:39:59,528 it's why I would've sold if I was dead, 646 00:40:00,558 --> 00:40:13,066 Brian: Did you, I don't know if you saw, there was some clip going around in Jeffrey Hinton talking about, what I wished we had anonymous background for this, how we were, you know, the, the human brain is not actually, you know, rational. 647 00:40:13,216 --> 00:40:18,316 It's an analogy machine and how we need analogies to make sense of things. 648 00:40:18,416 --> 00:40:21,326 this, this, this hit close to home for me. 649 00:40:21,536 --> 00:40:29,426 I mean, I think we're entering, 'cause Troy, you've made this period where we're entering into a period, particularly with ai, where a lot of this stuff is so complex. 650 00:40:29,426 --> 00:40:32,456 Then when we get into quantum computing, it's, it's like, forget about it. 651 00:40:32,766 --> 00:40:36,276 is that the only way sort of normal people can sort of make sense of it? 652 00:40:36,396 --> 00:40:42,126 Is, is through analogy and really we have kind of all along this is how, this is how we do it. 653 00:40:42,126 --> 00:40:48,186 And I noticed whenever you look at like how politicians talk about things like they always are using. 654 00:40:48,636 --> 00:40:52,506 Analogies to, to try to communicate to. 655 00:40:52,986 --> 00:41:06,636 And anonymous banker who unfortunately was not able to be here, was, was talking about how, you know, 'cause the rational sort of explanation about things in a very technical is, is like one form, but it doesn't really break through. 656 00:41:06,876 --> 00:41:14,756 Like, and I, I feel like that is, particularly as the world becomes more complex, that we're gonna lean on analogy more than ever. 657 00:41:15,356 --> 00:41:16,886 Troy: Who was the OG there, wasn't it? 658 00:41:16,886 --> 00:41:20,726 Douglas Hofstadter the philosopher or the, or? 659 00:41:21,356 --> 00:41:22,436 Douglas, I think his 660 00:41:22,616 --> 00:41:23,551 Brian: is, is that his brother? 661 00:41:24,151 --> 00:41:26,491 Troy: he's the cognitive science guy. 662 00:41:26,521 --> 00:41:29,311 He wrote that book that everybody referenced in college. 663 00:41:29,401 --> 00:41:35,311 You know the, maybe you can bring it up, Alex, if you just search Douglas Stader. 664 00:41:35,911 --> 00:41:37,271 Brian: I, I think it's Richard Hoft. 665 00:41:38,046 --> 00:41:39,936 Troy: Well, we'll find out really soon. 666 00:41:41,646 --> 00:41:42,546 Brian: This is tension. 667 00:41:42,576 --> 00:41:42,696 I 668 00:41:42,771 --> 00:41:44,021 Troy: yeah, let's see. 669 00:41:45,036 --> 00:41:45,786 Alex: there we go. 670 00:41:45,916 --> 00:41:48,261 Would you, who do you think is right? 671 00:41:48,861 --> 00:41:49,311 Troy: Yeah. 672 00:41:49,401 --> 00:41:50,841 And what was the name of the book? 673 00:41:51,081 --> 00:41:51,801 There it is. 674 00:41:52,101 --> 00:41:53,181 Go to Cher Bach. 675 00:41:53,241 --> 00:41:53,871 That's the one. 676 00:41:53,871 --> 00:41:54,531 Click on that. 677 00:41:54,651 --> 00:41:55,431 Find that book. 678 00:41:55,431 --> 00:41:59,121 Alex, I love bossing you around like you're the guy on all in. 679 00:41:59,721 --> 00:42:00,351 Yeah, this one. 680 00:42:00,951 --> 00:42:03,171 The Eternal Golden Braid. 681 00:42:03,771 --> 00:42:04,311 He's the guy. 682 00:42:04,311 --> 00:42:05,331 You know what his thing is? 683 00:42:05,691 --> 00:42:07,761 Analogy is the core of cognition. 684 00:42:07,881 --> 00:42:09,471 That's his take 685 00:42:10,071 --> 00:42:10,761 Brian: What is it? 686 00:42:11,361 --> 00:42:13,461 Troy: that we think in analogies. 687 00:42:14,061 --> 00:42:20,181 Alex: We also have to think in analogies when the subject matter becomes so complicated that our brains have trouble processing it. 688 00:42:20,181 --> 00:42:20,481 Right. 689 00:42:20,781 --> 00:42:26,211 And, I think what AI is actually really good at is analogizing all sorts of things for us. 690 00:42:26,211 --> 00:42:28,491 So that, I mean, it, it's helped me tremendously. 691 00:42:28,491 --> 00:42:40,281 Like I've always, used analogies, to communicate and learn and teach things because it really helps me, you know, kind of understand and, and, and store things in my brain. 692 00:42:40,633 --> 00:42:43,488 Troy: wonder if it'll help you tracking a time on your schedule. 693 00:42:44,088 --> 00:42:55,668 Alex: I had to, well, yeah, I mean, I think if you create a calendar for analogy, like maybe it's a glass of water that gets fuller and fuller, and if I let it spill over, it'll, But I have a funny story about analogies. 694 00:42:55,668 --> 00:43:07,765 I was known to really like analogies at, at, at work, and I once got a, a text from someone that I worked with that said for the person who loves analogies, but, iOS truncated it. 695 00:43:08,155 --> 00:43:10,225 So it just said for the person who loves anal, 696 00:43:13,591 --> 00:43:16,285 and I didn't know if I should, if I should tap on it. 697 00:43:16,585 --> 00:43:18,325 I was, I was, I was kind of, 698 00:43:18,970 --> 00:43:21,235 Troy: Was it a, you thought it was a gift guide? 699 00:43:21,907 --> 00:43:26,785 Alex: I thought it was, I, I genuinely, like so many thoughts went through my, I said, this is somebody 700 00:43:27,350 --> 00:43:28,220 Brian: could be some affiliate 701 00:43:28,475 --> 00:43:30,845 Alex: texting, texting me something by mistake. 702 00:43:31,465 --> 00:43:33,958 and, I nearly, yeah, I, I, it was fun. 703 00:43:34,468 --> 00:43:35,008 but yeah. 704 00:43:35,608 --> 00:43:36,988 Troy: That's a great story, Alex. 705 00:43:37,318 --> 00:43:37,708 Alex: Thank you. 706 00:43:39,748 --> 00:43:40,228 It's what? 707 00:43:40,228 --> 00:43:40,798 It's what the listen. 708 00:43:42,530 --> 00:43:42,860 Brian: All right. 709 00:43:42,860 --> 00:43:44,000 Are we done on analogies? 710 00:43:44,690 --> 00:43:45,875 Troy: I mean, what El what? 711 00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:46,340 What El? 712 00:43:46,340 --> 00:43:53,607 I mean, Brian, you know, I don't know what else to say 'cause I don't know anything about it other than I do know that you are an exceptional narrative thinker. 713 00:43:53,787 --> 00:43:54,537 That's what you do. 714 00:43:55,137 --> 00:43:57,567 Maybe it's just years and years of writing stories. 715 00:43:57,927 --> 00:43:59,997 Brian: I think it's years and years of writing stories. 716 00:44:00,027 --> 00:44:05,547 I mean, analogies are how people relate to information that they're unfamiliar with. 717 00:44:05,577 --> 00:44:19,857 I always find like there's this engineering brain that is a little bit different than the narrative brain, and the reality is that there's different forms of intelligence and, I think what 718 00:44:19,857 --> 00:44:30,627 Obama was saying, and I don't necessarily think this is, is true, he was like, you're better off with a liberal arts degree because we're entering into a period where a lot of technical 719 00:44:30,627 --> 00:44:43,327 knowledge, and we talked about this last week, is being commoditized and we're, we kind of are not, we're not ready for intelligence as we understand it very narrowly to be a commodity. 720 00:44:43,327 --> 00:44:54,397 We, we were ready for, physical strength to be a commodity or, you know, being, you know, having manufacturing technical expertise be a com commoditized. 721 00:44:54,547 --> 00:44:59,407 But for some reason we always think that the intellectual will not be commoditized. 722 00:44:59,467 --> 00:45:12,337 But it seems pretty clear that AI is going to commoditize a lot of the, you know, what we thought of as, as being, you know, high level intellectual work. 723 00:45:12,337 --> 00:45:12,667 I mean, we 724 00:45:12,667 --> 00:45:13,422 see this with 725 00:45:13,510 --> 00:45:21,730 Alex: But doesn't that just like, doesn't that just maybe clarify that a lot of this intellectual work isn't really high level and it is in fact just muscle? 726 00:45:21,790 --> 00:45:26,920 It is in fact just like kind of, you know, you know, turning the. 727 00:45:27,835 --> 00:45:40,652 The, and so maybe what happens, and I don't want to kind of become too like, you know, tech utopian on this, is that actually when you, in a world where you can instantiate any idea that you have and make it real, whether it's 728 00:45:40,682 --> 00:45:52,712 digital or you know, physical or narrative, that the most important thing becomes like your own power of like creating the, the, the, the prose or whatever it needs to be. 729 00:45:52,862 --> 00:45:55,382 That like instantiates, that thing, right? 730 00:45:55,562 --> 00:46:01,352 And that's the way you stand out in a, in a world of full abundance where you can just ask the computer to do anything. 731 00:46:01,652 --> 00:46:05,162 It's the asker that gets most of the power versus a computer. 732 00:46:05,537 --> 00:46:06,212 Troy: Yeah, I agree. 733 00:46:06,212 --> 00:46:09,392 I think it's a, I think it's an emergent skill actually. 734 00:46:09,992 --> 00:46:11,852 I think that, you know, I was frustrated to. 735 00:46:12,392 --> 00:46:17,822 Today because, I mentioned this to you, Brian, I was taking a walk, beautiful. 736 00:46:17,822 --> 00:46:19,262 Good product, Brooklyn. 737 00:46:19,862 --> 00:46:27,022 And, I was thinking about all the innovation that's happening, how much chaos is in the world, but how beautiful it was in that moment. 738 00:46:27,592 --> 00:46:30,175 And I was like, you know, how resilient is our world? 739 00:46:30,175 --> 00:46:38,665 you know, I'm worrying like, you know, everybody's worrying about, you know, what happens to my investments and you know, what, 740 00:46:38,695 --> 00:46:47,605 where the economy's going and all of the other, you know, kind of geopolitical risks that we've, it feels like we're living in. 741 00:46:48,205 --> 00:47:01,885 And then I was like, how do I reconcile that with what appears to be a tremendous amount of kind of economic activity centered around innovation and how good America is at product service, software innovation. 742 00:47:02,485 --> 00:47:05,635 And it's just like a long, long, long and experiential innovation. 743 00:47:05,635 --> 00:47:21,343 There's a long history there, and that actually has been where the value has accrued, and suddenly we're nervous that that has both left out a lot of people and that it's a risk to, you know, a, a a, a bigger Thank you Alex. 744 00:47:21,573 --> 00:47:24,483 Brian: Alex is showing Brooklyn, very stereotypical Brooklyn. 745 00:47:24,618 --> 00:47:25,698 Troy: yeah, that's, that's a 746 00:47:25,721 --> 00:47:25,908 nice 747 00:47:26,028 --> 00:47:26,588 Brian: Troy's part. 748 00:47:26,962 --> 00:47:27,292 Troy: Yeah. 749 00:47:27,352 --> 00:47:36,662 Anyway, you know the story and I came back and I started asking chat GPT to help me work that question through. 750 00:47:37,262 --> 00:47:41,672 And I prompted, and prompted and prompted, and I got a response back. 751 00:47:41,672 --> 00:47:43,292 And then I said, write me an essay on it. 752 00:47:43,292 --> 00:47:48,062 And I wanted to hand it over to you guys as kind of a prompt that we could use in the podcast. 753 00:47:48,452 --> 00:47:51,332 And to me, the, the. 754 00:47:52,382 --> 00:48:00,412 A, being able to ask those questions and to create scenarios that technology response to is really, an important new skill to think about. 755 00:48:00,922 --> 00:48:11,932 You know, questions, hypotheses, things that need to, you know, get, get, you know, researched and, you know, things that you want to kind of compare and dig into and analogize and all of that. 756 00:48:12,412 --> 00:48:18,452 The output, can be very, very frustrating because it never quite comes out the way you want it. 757 00:48:19,017 --> 00:48:34,197 it's either too literal or you send it down the wrong, into the wrong place because something that you've said sends the, the LLM to, you know, a kind of, you know, just not entirely relevant part of the knowledge space. 758 00:48:34,777 --> 00:48:42,597 but, I think that that people, that there will be people, there are people that are good at doing this and people that are not. 759 00:48:43,071 --> 00:48:43,641 It's a, it's a 760 00:48:43,791 --> 00:48:44,071 Alex: skill. 761 00:48:44,398 --> 00:48:58,698 I've been thinking about this because I think it's a new skill and it's, it's one that's hard to, triangulate our brains around because I think it is, it is kind of a mixture, an uncanny mixture of using a tool and managing a person. 762 00:48:59,208 --> 00:49:07,248 And I don't, you know, I don't mean to anthropomorphize the ai, but I think there are, it, it, it's, it's so counterintuitive, intuitive 763 00:49:07,248 --> 00:49:14,478 because we are actually, kind of programmed by the world around us to say like, okay, this is how you manage a tool, which is very specific. 764 00:49:14,478 --> 00:49:21,168 It follows a set of rules and how you manage a person, which is much more, you know, emotionally tinted and, and all of that stuff. 765 00:49:21,168 --> 00:49:24,138 And yet here we have this tool where you have to learn how to do both. 766 00:49:24,318 --> 00:49:28,218 It is both a tool and, and, and dealing with an individual in a way. 767 00:49:28,518 --> 00:49:35,388 And I think it's, it's a really completely new way of interfacing with a computer and I don't think it's going to change. 768 00:49:35,868 --> 00:49:36,708 Overnight, right. 769 00:49:36,708 --> 00:49:50,448 Even if they come up with a GI, I think the E, even to the point that I sometimes have clawed and chat GPT open and I get clawed to help me write the prompt that will do a certain thing for chat GPT and I get better results. 770 00:49:50,568 --> 00:49:52,008 That makes no fucking sense. 771 00:49:52,068 --> 00:49:52,548 That shouldn't 772 00:49:52,598 --> 00:49:52,748 Troy: you 773 00:49:52,748 --> 00:49:59,018 know, a Alex, I think about it too in everyday like, process, type questions. 774 00:49:59,018 --> 00:50:11,318 So for example, I have a couple of friends that are creating a new energy drink and I had looked at it 'cause they, I spoke to them about investing in the company and you know, I was looking at, 775 00:50:11,512 --> 00:50:23,242 you know, how the fundamental challenge of how this particular product would stand out in a, you know, dramatically c cluttered environment inside of a bodega or, you know, whole Foods or wherever. 776 00:50:23,842 --> 00:50:30,802 And their, their answer was, well, we'll just go hire an agency and get them someone who's made you know, a good can before to make a can now. 777 00:50:30,802 --> 00:50:33,442 And I'm like, that's not how I would do it anymore. 778 00:50:34,042 --> 00:50:38,422 And what I would do is I would really think through the prompt, right? 779 00:50:38,422 --> 00:50:41,692 Which is, what is unique about this drink? 780 00:50:41,692 --> 00:50:43,102 What is the positioning? 781 00:50:43,492 --> 00:50:46,072 Why do we think it's gonna resonate with an audience? 782 00:50:46,342 --> 00:50:52,342 I would start working back and forth on essentially what the problem statement is and how we're gonna, you know, position it for the consumer. 783 00:50:52,342 --> 00:51:02,422 And then I would start literally making designs like with different, with different, you know, names and different kind of positioning hierarchies. 784 00:51:02,842 --> 00:51:11,842 And I would feed in a project file, the LLMA bunch of other examples I would, and a bunch of influences and stuff that I liked. 785 00:51:11,842 --> 00:51:20,662 And I would literally get to a place where I had 10 examples that I was happy with, that we could then mess with, you know, by hand, you know, that 786 00:51:20,662 --> 00:51:29,002 you could tweak inside of a design, a piece of design software because the, the, getting very specific with words to design is very hard to do. 787 00:51:29,227 --> 00:51:29,962 Alex: It, it, it is. 788 00:51:29,962 --> 00:51:32,062 And I, and, and I'm so happy you said that. 789 00:51:32,062 --> 00:51:32,332 I, 790 00:51:32,467 --> 00:51:34,207 Troy: No, no, but just let me, let me finish Alex. 791 00:51:34,207 --> 00:51:41,827 And then what I would do is I would quickly take those out to everybody I knew and I would line up the 10 cans and I would say, tell me what you're thinking, what you're 792 00:51:41,827 --> 00:51:42,277 feeling. 793 00:51:42,277 --> 00:51:42,487 Help 794 00:51:42,487 --> 00:51:43,267 me understand. 795 00:51:43,687 --> 00:51:44,047 Yeah. 796 00:51:44,437 --> 00:51:51,187 And as opposed to like briefing a design agency and going through that whole process, you would never do that. 797 00:51:51,787 --> 00:51:56,062 Brian: So wait, so unpack, so basically you would get to start quicker, right? 798 00:51:56,762 --> 00:52:02,027 And it, it's going back, but this is not replacing the designer in the 799 00:52:02,124 --> 00:52:05,364 Troy: it's, you know, I think you need the designer at the end of the process. 800 00:52:05,364 --> 00:52:11,394 I think you need them to refine some of the ideas, and I think you need them to, to make the mechanical art perfect. 801 00:52:11,394 --> 00:52:13,724 But, actually Brian, get to start quicker. 802 00:52:13,724 --> 00:52:17,384 I was having lunch with the person and I just started doing it at lunch. 803 00:52:17,474 --> 00:52:18,104 I just did it. 804 00:52:18,704 --> 00:52:26,834 On chat, GPT, I'm like, let's just break down the hierarchy of kind of, you know, what of benefits of, and, and, and let's start designing cans. 805 00:52:26,834 --> 00:52:27,254 And it was 806 00:52:27,254 --> 00:52:33,314 like we have a perfect conversation around a design product like we used to in the old days, but would've taken weeks. 807 00:52:33,614 --> 00:52:43,484 Brian: Wait, lemme say one thing, I'll get to you on this because I think that is like the skillset that is gonna be more important almost than like raw intelligence. 808 00:52:43,514 --> 00:52:53,504 'cause I wish AB was here 'cause he was talking about IQ and I've got a thing about IQ because it's a specific type of intelligence, but like that is gonna get, a lot of that kind of intelligence will be commoditized. 809 00:52:53,504 --> 00:53:03,104 That's why we have so many experts right now, because it's easy to read up on something and get briefed on it by, or whatever, and pass yourself off as like a quasi expert, right? 810 00:53:03,404 --> 00:53:10,004 But like that sort of like, you know, in the valley they call it high agency, like the willingness, like to dive in and like get to start. 811 00:53:10,004 --> 00:53:23,594 That is probably a bigger skillset, a more important skillset to have, which really, you know, bothers me as someone who's, who sometimes struggles with it than, you know, raw, like, you know, IQ horsepower. 812 00:53:23,594 --> 00:53:25,209 Troy: That's important in the chaos economy. 813 00:53:26,129 --> 00:53:36,837 Alex: it is, I, I developed this, way of working, which I think applied well to me because I was a designer and, and, I could make, you know, I could make things real and I would always say like, that's what I like to do. 814 00:53:36,837 --> 00:53:38,127 I like making things real. 815 00:53:38,307 --> 00:53:44,787 And it was never about, is it a, is it words or is it images or is it photos or is it fonts or is it graphics? 816 00:53:45,087 --> 00:53:46,137 It's whatever. 817 00:53:46,352 --> 00:53:53,222 You need to get the job done to remove these layers of abstraction between your idea and what it is that you're making. 818 00:53:53,402 --> 00:53:53,642 Right? 819 00:53:53,642 --> 00:54:03,602 So sometimes it could be clay or it could be like, pick a right set of fonts or just drop some colors in there and, and this and this idea that you started with a document, which is why sometimes 820 00:54:03,872 --> 00:54:14,072 I, I get confused for somebody who doesn't like words, but I, I think that you, the having the format set the intention of what you're trying to build completely changes what you're building. 821 00:54:14,462 --> 00:54:22,922 And, and, and yesterday we had an amazing like five hour meeting where we just had a, a Figma board or mirror board or whatever tool you use. 822 00:54:23,252 --> 00:54:25,142 And it's not like we were writing words or images. 823 00:54:25,232 --> 00:54:26,462 We had screenshots in there. 824 00:54:26,492 --> 00:54:26,702 We had. 825 00:54:26,977 --> 00:54:32,047 We had little digital PostIts post-its, we had graphs, we had examples of fonts. 826 00:54:32,047 --> 00:54:41,467 We had somebody scribbling something down and, and then you kind of pull that out and we call it, we call it shaping, but you pull that out and you make it as real as possible so that you can put it in front of people. 827 00:54:41,557 --> 00:54:43,597 If it's a car, make it out of clay. 828 00:54:43,747 --> 00:54:47,407 If it's a soft drink, make a fake can, you know, like whatever it is. 829 00:54:47,407 --> 00:54:52,687 And, and this idea of like writing a spec, bringing it to an agency that's dead. 830 00:54:52,717 --> 00:55:00,187 If you're doing that right now, you're, you're, you're, you're setting yourself up to be 10 times slower than any anybody else to get your idea out to market. 831 00:55:00,667 --> 00:55:02,707 And, and that's, and that's the biggest skill. 832 00:55:02,707 --> 00:55:10,687 And it's not about being dogmatic about which tool you use or how you express yourself, but maybe, maybe kind of this new technology like ai. 833 00:55:11,307 --> 00:55:16,797 Not only is giving us more capabilities, but it's also teaching us like what maybe we kind of need to be multimodal. 834 00:55:17,007 --> 00:55:22,227 Maybe we need to be like video and image and text generators supported by this tool. 835 00:55:22,467 --> 00:55:27,477 Like generate yourself a fake ad. Make it, see how, how you feel, see if you're going in the right direction. 836 00:55:27,777 --> 00:55:28,737 It's so powerful. 837 00:55:28,737 --> 00:55:30,207 Computers are so powerful. 838 00:55:30,357 --> 00:55:38,577 And yet we've like forced ourself down this like archaic academic kind of path of like, well you first, you set this up and then you turn it into a list of to-dos. 839 00:55:38,577 --> 00:55:43,737 And then you give each one of those to their own professional, you know, who owns a piece of that slice. 840 00:55:43,737 --> 00:55:49,257 And the problem is, if you do that, if you individualize like, well, you do this, you do this, you do this, everybody's doing 5%. 841 00:55:49,497 --> 00:55:51,747 Everyone's 5% becomes their a hundred percent. 842 00:55:51,867 --> 00:55:54,057 And nobody's, you know, nobody's looking at the whole 843 00:55:54,057 --> 00:55:54,477 picture 844 00:55:54,747 --> 00:56:01,257 Troy: the truth is that the distance briefs were usually stupid and designers usually didn't really pay much attention to them. 845 00:56:01,857 --> 00:56:02,247 Alex: no. 846 00:56:02,277 --> 00:56:02,727 Troy: what I mean? 847 00:56:02,727 --> 00:56:03,297 It's just like 848 00:56:03,297 --> 00:56:04,107 we, we spent, 849 00:56:04,542 --> 00:56:07,602 Alex: We're feeling, seeing, hearing, tasting creatures. 850 00:56:07,722 --> 00:56:08,142 Right? 851 00:56:08,322 --> 00:56:10,542 And we always wanna imagine our own thing in it. 852 00:56:10,542 --> 00:56:14,292 And the more you allow for that abstraction to happen, the more it happens. 853 00:56:14,892 --> 00:56:16,812 Troy: as Gavin Newsom would say, here, here, 854 00:56:17,412 --> 00:56:18,042 Brian: Okay, 855 00:56:18,132 --> 00:56:21,702 Alex: No it guy would say on his podcast And now for an ad break 856 00:56:24,192 --> 00:56:26,052 Brian: is he's monetizing very heavily. 857 00:56:26,172 --> 00:56:29,307 Troy: uh, iHeartRadio is monetizing heavily. 858 00:56:29,382 --> 00:56:29,982 Brian: love that. 859 00:56:30,312 --> 00:56:31,212 Does he read them? 860 00:56:31,662 --> 00:56:32,292 I don't listen to it. 861 00:56:32,292 --> 00:56:32,562 Does he 862 00:56:32,667 --> 00:56:33,747 Troy: He, no, he's not a 863 00:56:33,972 --> 00:56:34,722 Brian: That would be great 864 00:56:34,782 --> 00:56:36,342 Alex: the way, can we talk about 865 00:56:37,092 --> 00:56:37,812 30 seconds? 866 00:56:37,812 --> 00:56:47,502 30 seconds That the Governor of California has ads on his podcast is a and more than most is absolutely fucking insane. 867 00:56:47,862 --> 00:56:52,002 Brian: And I meant that question asking if he, if he was reading them, it was completely plausible. 868 00:56:52,037 --> 00:56:55,182 Like if he was like reading an an Athletic Greens act, 869 00:56:55,182 --> 00:57:00,222 Alex: Right before we go, before, before we return to Kanye West, let's listen to an ad for MeUndies. 870 00:57:00,312 --> 00:57:03,261 Brian: you know, I, that's why did you ever listen to like Ben Shapiro's 871 00:57:03,732 --> 00:57:04,392 podcast 872 00:57:04,392 --> 00:57:04,823 or something? 873 00:57:04,962 --> 00:57:08,292 He just, all of a sudden there's no like interlude or any sort of break. 874 00:57:08,292 --> 00:57:12,042 He'd just be like, you know, like about like cancel culture and then he'll be like, boom. 875 00:57:12,042 --> 00:57:15,312 And he's running, he's like reading out like with gusto, like 876 00:57:15,312 --> 00:57:15,402 a 877 00:57:15,672 --> 00:57:16,787 Alex: He's amazing, huh? 878 00:57:16,902 --> 00:57:17,112 He's 879 00:57:17,202 --> 00:57:17,832 amazing. 880 00:57:18,462 --> 00:57:18,972 Brian: he's great. 881 00:57:19,167 --> 00:57:24,997 Alex: you know, tr Troy and I make fun that you're shameless at plugging, but like, you know, you need more of that Shapiro energy. 882 00:57:25,072 --> 00:57:26,212 Brian: Yeah, I'll do it. 883 00:57:26,302 --> 00:57:26,782 No problem. 884 00:57:27,172 --> 00:57:33,933 did you see, I don't know if you saw it, but Pete Buttigieg, went on to, the Andrew Schultz podcast. 885 00:57:33,933 --> 00:57:34,293 What is that? 886 00:57:34,293 --> 00:57:35,133 What is this podcast 887 00:57:35,193 --> 00:57:35,883 Troy: I love this. 888 00:57:35,883 --> 00:57:41,343 For those that can't see it, it's like, it's like Ben Shapiro, A-S-M-A-M-R. 889 00:57:41,673 --> 00:57:46,833 It's just like we're talking and he we're just, we just have a talking head beside us of Shapiro. 890 00:57:47,433 --> 00:57:48,483 Oh, he looks good now. 891 00:57:48,633 --> 00:57:49,983 You see what he, he's got a beard now. 892 00:57:50,493 --> 00:57:50,673 Budgie. 893 00:57:51,025 --> 00:57:52,465 Brian: Yeah, Buttigieg has a beard. 894 00:57:52,495 --> 00:57:59,103 He went on Flagrant, which is the, um, very popular, Andrew Schultz podcast. 895 00:57:59,183 --> 00:58:03,803 he's also part of this, this, this Manosphere Media, which is, I'm trying to unpack. 896 00:58:03,803 --> 00:58:08,643 I'm, I'm also doing a conspiracy, sort of the matrix for, for that. 897 00:58:08,643 --> 00:58:13,953 But anyway, Pete is famous for going on Fox News and to the Lion's Den and holding his own. 898 00:58:14,043 --> 00:58:18,693 And he, he did the same, he did the same in, on flagrant. 899 00:58:18,993 --> 00:58:26,253 And, you know, he took a lot of like, you know, the jokes and all the, the, and, you know, coming and he took them in stride and I, and. 900 00:58:26,853 --> 00:58:30,813 From everything I've read and whatever I saw, you know, he did real well. 901 00:58:30,913 --> 00:58:45,703 and so I think, I think we're starting to see a, in, you know, we're talking about people emerge on different sides of the, of the political spectrum who are willing to go into these environments. 902 00:58:45,973 --> 00:58:47,623 You know, on the, on the contrast 903 00:58:47,653 --> 00:58:50,293 Troy: we're sorting through the talent based on a different medium. 904 00:58:50,443 --> 00:58:50,773 By the way. 905 00:58:50,773 --> 00:58:52,003 He should r up a bit. 906 00:58:52,093 --> 00:58:53,773 He should TRT that shit. 907 00:58:54,028 --> 00:58:57,928 Alex: Yeah, you should, you think he should wear a baggy t-shirt and start wearing a chain like Zuckerberg? 908 00:58:58,168 --> 00:58:58,318 I 909 00:58:58,453 --> 00:59:01,603 Troy: I think he should start, he should start doing the jab and 910 00:59:01,858 --> 00:59:02,218 Alex: needs to 911 00:59:02,218 --> 00:59:02,518 go, 912 00:59:02,741 --> 00:59:05,981 Troy: Well, the linen, the, the, the, the, the royal blue linens. 913 00:59:06,071 --> 00:59:06,551 Yeah. 914 00:59:06,761 --> 00:59:07,271 He could, 915 00:59:07,526 --> 00:59:07,826 Alex: but, 916 00:59:07,826 --> 00:59:09,926 but, uh, but it is, it is true. 917 00:59:09,926 --> 00:59:16,916 And, and so I was, I was listening to, I don't love it, but I was listening to Hassan speak about, the topic that that the 918 00:59:16,916 --> 00:59:23,846 Democrats should really put themselves out there and keep pushing because Americans are more, ma more malleable than we think. 919 00:59:23,876 --> 00:59:29,606 Like media really influences people and the more you go out and, and, and, and, you know. 920 00:59:30,191 --> 00:59:37,481 Talk your book on all of these podcasts, the more you're gonna kind of start incepting some of these ideas in people's heads and they're finally doing it. 921 00:59:37,721 --> 00:59:46,661 And I don't think that, and else, I think that they're doing it with mediums that actually don't only reach people just in numbers, but just like emotionally, right? 922 00:59:46,721 --> 00:59:49,301 Because I think these, these things no longer work on c, 923 00:59:49,506 --> 00:59:52,271 Troy: Yeah, and by the way, you just need to be a better bullshitter. 924 00:59:52,871 --> 00:59:53,531 Like he's good. 925 00:59:53,591 --> 00:59:56,681 He, I mean, he's, I find him to be a sort of compelling thinker, 926 00:59:56,741 --> 00:59:57,281 Alex: he says, but 927 00:59:57,281 --> 00:59:57,671 Yes. 928 00:59:57,978 --> 00:59:58,278 Troy: I don't 929 00:59:58,373 --> 00:59:58,573 Alex: Yeah, 930 00:59:58,968 --> 00:59:59,178 Troy: is, 931 00:59:59,178 --> 01:00:00,348 is a term for not, 932 01:00:00,438 --> 01:00:00,648 Alex: Yeah, 933 01:00:00,723 --> 01:00:01,053 Brian: yeah, 934 01:00:01,282 --> 01:00:05,842 the bullshitters are, well, are actually really well positioned for for the future, I think. 935 01:00:06,007 --> 01:00:07,387 Alex: I mean, people can just talk. 936 01:00:07,387 --> 01:00:08,733 I mean, that's the power, right? 937 01:00:10,397 --> 01:00:12,597 Troy: Brian, if you don't mind me hijacking your agenda a little bit. 938 01:00:12,597 --> 01:00:23,307 I was on the phone with you before the podcast and you started rendering out the battles inside of the kind of manosphere pod podcast world as if it was a, you know, an epic wrestling match. 939 01:00:24,027 --> 01:00:26,247 Would you, would you do that for, for the, for the 940 01:00:26,247 --> 01:00:27,237 audience And just break, 941 01:00:27,372 --> 01:00:36,552 Brian: So basically I was spurred down this, this path with the Douglas Murray character and he, 'cause I, I remembered seeing 942 01:00:36,897 --> 01:00:37,662 Troy: people who Douglas 943 01:00:37,842 --> 01:00:38,682 Brian: so Douglas Murray. 944 01:00:38,682 --> 01:00:42,162 But I remember seeing him before, 'cause he is, he's conservative. 945 01:00:42,312 --> 01:00:44,502 He's like a, he's a British journalist, 946 01:00:45,042 --> 01:00:45,732 Troy: anti woke 947 01:00:46,422 --> 01:00:46,744 Brian: know, anti 948 01:00:46,782 --> 01:00:46,962 woke. 949 01:00:47,262 --> 01:00:53,652 And so I thought of him as like conservative side and also he's got like a knit to pick with, you know, with Islam. 950 01:00:53,652 --> 01:01:03,842 I always like, heard him like talking, you know, a lot of stuff about, about Israel Palestine and, and, and that, and, and then he 951 01:01:04,007 --> 01:01:06,587 Troy: He worries about sort of sovereign purity. 952 01:01:06,812 --> 01:01:10,292 Brian: He worries about the decline in fall of Western civilizations. 953 01:01:10,352 --> 01:01:12,212 You know, that, that's his, that's his lane. 954 01:01:12,462 --> 01:01:13,722 and he is got the British accent. 955 01:01:13,722 --> 01:01:14,862 So, you know, Americans, 956 01:01:15,402 --> 01:01:16,812 you know, they la this up? 957 01:01:16,992 --> 01:01:17,232 Yeah. 958 01:01:17,237 --> 01:01:18,552 20 20, 20 to four. 959 01:01:18,552 --> 01:01:24,852 I mean, this is, this is how agencies, you talk about those briefs, I mean this, every single, every single planner is British for a reason. 960 01:01:25,362 --> 01:01:34,046 and so he went on Joe Rogan and just went and went right after him and went right after him for platforming, Holocaust deniers and whatnot. 961 01:01:34,496 --> 01:01:36,548 And, he had Joe on the ropes. 962 01:01:36,548 --> 01:01:40,838 Joe brought this comedian, Dave White, who we talked about. 963 01:01:40,838 --> 01:01:41,078 Who? 964 01:01:41,198 --> 01:01:42,608 No, Dave Smith. 965 01:01:42,608 --> 01:01:42,968 Sorry. 966 01:01:43,028 --> 01:01:43,598 Dave White. 967 01:01:43,598 --> 01:01:44,378 It could be Dave White. 968 01:01:44,378 --> 01:01:45,578 It's like the most anonymous name. 969 01:01:45,728 --> 01:01:50,318 Nobody's actually ever seen him be funny, but I've only seen him basically just be libertarian on these things. 970 01:01:50,378 --> 01:01:56,948 And so he really held his own because Joe is the kind of, you know, king of this area. 971 01:01:57,518 --> 01:02:00,548 But then after the podcast. 972 01:02:00,953 --> 01:02:04,463 He goes on to Sam Harris's podcast. 973 01:02:04,463 --> 01:02:09,413 Now, Sam Harris was formerly linked with Elon Musk 974 01:02:09,785 --> 01:02:10,445 and he St 975 01:02:11,045 --> 01:02:20,445 Good friends, but then they broke up o over Covid and then, he still kind of buddies with Joe Rogan, but they're, they're trying to, they're trying to have an intervention 976 01:02:20,510 --> 01:02:22,605 Troy: is like the thinking man, Joe Rogan, right? 977 01:02:22,605 --> 01:02:24,405 Like he's like smart and sensitive. 978 01:02:24,540 --> 01:02:27,960 Brian: but he's also very, he also has a, has a problem with Islam too. 979 01:02:27,960 --> 01:02:36,715 So they, they like kind of allied on that because the Douglas Murray guy is, is promoting his book Democracy and Death Cults. 980 01:02:36,855 --> 01:02:42,435 and so basically then Joe Rogan has. 981 01:02:43,020 --> 01:02:50,880 It's Joe Rogan and that guy, Tim Dylan, who I guess is a comedian, but he's also involved in this, this, this weird world where the 982 01:02:50,880 --> 01:03:01,220 comedians and the sort of libertarians are, are overlapping and they're making fun of Douglas Murray for, his British 983 01:03:01,580 --> 01:03:05,750 Troy: So they climbed so Rogan and this other guy climbed up on the ropes to body slam. 984 01:03:05,750 --> 01:03:06,380 Doug Murray. 985 01:03:06,635 --> 01:03:14,945 Brian: because like, he, so basically, Douglas Murray was the first one to, you know, really go into Rogan and smack him around a little bit. 986 01:03:15,275 --> 01:03:22,175 And, and so he's become a bit of a hero to people who absolutely disagree with him nine times outta 10. 987 01:03:22,175 --> 01:03:29,825 But you gotta, you know, you can't pick, you know, we were aligned with, with, with Stalin during World War ii, which is something that a lot of these guys are obsessed with. 988 01:03:30,425 --> 01:03:32,435 Anyway, I'm still trying to unpack it, but 989 01:03:32,720 --> 01:03:32,810 Alex: but 990 01:03:32,810 --> 01:03:40,280 this is the, but this is this is the Joe Rogan playbook, and this is why people actually, if you look at that, there, there, I mean, elephant Graveyard has done some of 991 01:03:40,280 --> 01:03:48,410 that where Joe Rogan, actually in the moment might not be that great at defending his views because he's pretty malleable, right? 992 01:03:48,410 --> 01:03:53,610 And he's pretty, and even when people fact check him, saying things like, well. 993 01:03:53,925 --> 01:03:55,035 Where are you getting that from? 994 01:03:55,035 --> 01:03:59,055 And somebody will cite a very reputable source and it's like, well, do we really trust him? 995 01:03:59,325 --> 01:04:08,655 Or even especially like kind of getting a little dismantled during his own podcast and then afterwards using his massive platforms to just try to destroy people. 996 01:04:08,655 --> 01:04:18,645 I mean, these are, it makes, I, I think there's, there's a few cracks happening and a few different alliances and it does feel like there's a very game of thronesy thing happening. 997 01:04:18,825 --> 01:04:26,355 Like, well, okay, well we both hate these people, but we kind of like this guy and so we're gonna get together and then we're gonna make fun of this dude. 998 01:04:26,715 --> 01:04:31,155 And the fact that comedians are in the center of all this is insane. 999 01:04:31,755 --> 01:04:32,025 Troy: Yeah. 1000 01:04:32,025 --> 01:04:37,515 And then Joe Rogan comes out just to kind of be a little bit disruptive and says he likes puppies and due process. 1001 01:04:38,115 --> 01:04:51,315 Brian: Yeah, but it's like, I think it's a form of this participatory nature of media in some ways because it's, you know, it's WEI mean, a lot of what's going on with Trump and Trump is like, you know, the U-F-C-W-W-E President, right? 1002 01:04:51,315 --> 01:05:03,105 And, you know, you, you create drama, you have people who turn, heal, you know, all of a sudden they were, they were tag team partners and now they're like sworn enemies and then you have a battle royale and 1003 01:05:03,165 --> 01:05:06,910 Troy: Tim Dillon the guy that, that, that, that was on all in that last week? 1004 01:05:07,510 --> 01:05:07,840 Brian: Yeah. 1005 01:05:07,870 --> 01:05:17,800 So they, they, they all, that's why I'm saying like, so all in left this sort of sphere of like, sort of Silicon Valley media and like moved into this area. 1006 01:05:17,830 --> 01:05:18,010 ' cause 1007 01:05:18,070 --> 01:05:19,180 Troy: Great observation. 1008 01:05:19,360 --> 01:05:19,600 Yep. 1009 01:05:19,900 --> 01:05:24,070 Brian: Is sort of the mass, you know, the top, there's more niche areas. 1010 01:05:24,170 --> 01:05:26,180 I haven't mapped it all out yet, but I'm gonna work 1011 01:05:26,210 --> 01:05:29,630 Troy: No, it's like us, you know, you get tired of talking about technology and stuff. 1012 01:05:29,630 --> 01:05:30,740 You gotta move into other 1013 01:05:31,010 --> 01:05:40,625 Alex: But I mean, it's, you know what this is, this is though, it's it is a, a YouTube phenomenon that's been happening for a while in some of the younger, with the younger YouTubers, including 1014 01:05:40,625 --> 01:05:46,805 folks like Destiny and some of the gaming streaming and stuff like that, is that there's that whole meta narrative of all the drama. 1015 01:05:47,075 --> 01:05:48,635 There's, there's channels. 1016 01:05:48,695 --> 01:06:00,183 If you, if you YouTube that there's channels based just on YouTube drama, it's like, the, the, you know, the housewives of YouTube, is happening in the background and it's a massive ecosystem of like. 1017 01:06:00,843 --> 01:06:03,783 Like, you know, like Tabloidy drama and people love it. 1018 01:06:03,783 --> 01:06:13,353 I don't know how much of it is manufactured, but the amount of times this type of, oh, this guy did that on his stream and you know, cheated on this guy's, you know, girlfriend and whatever. 1019 01:06:13,583 --> 01:06:14,813 and it's all happening there. 1020 01:06:14,813 --> 01:06:22,793 And YouTube is this massive place where all of this is happening, which is why, going back to your point, Troy, I don't think X is the big, is the big driver of all that. 1021 01:06:22,853 --> 01:06:24,833 Everything is happening on YouTube. 1022 01:06:25,223 --> 01:06:26,243 Everything is happening 1023 01:06:26,243 --> 01:06:26,426 Brian: Yeah. 1024 01:06:26,573 --> 01:06:31,943 But, and I think what's interesting is podcasting has be, has basically been swallowed by YouTube. 1025 01:06:32,273 --> 01:06:40,013 You see basically the podcasters adopting all of the YouTube gimmicks and, and you know, that's where the debates all came. 1026 01:06:40,013 --> 01:06:43,348 I was like, why is everyone doing these debates on these podcasts have been listening to? 1027 01:06:43,523 --> 01:06:45,233 And it's because it's a YouTube format. 1028 01:06:45,683 --> 01:06:45,863 Alex: yeah. 1029 01:06:45,893 --> 01:06:46,583 It's a YouTube. 1030 01:06:46,613 --> 01:06:50,393 A podcast is now a YouTube show that you also distribute as audio only. 1031 01:06:50,393 --> 01:06:50,453 I. 1032 01:06:50,573 --> 01:06:53,093 Troy: Yeah, I wanna make a point about our podcast right now. 1033 01:06:53,178 --> 01:06:58,583 I, I, I may, I had the misfortune of following it on YouTube. 1034 01:06:58,583 --> 01:07:04,203 Alex and I, I don't, I don't love, you know, playing in, in the, in the video space. 1035 01:07:04,203 --> 01:07:07,533 But if we could do it like this, this is great. 1036 01:07:08,133 --> 01:07:08,793 I just like, 1037 01:07:09,048 --> 01:07:09,588 Alex: like this. 1038 01:07:10,188 --> 01:07:10,458 Troy: like, 1039 01:07:10,533 --> 01:07:11,493 Alex: people still listen. 1040 01:07:12,033 --> 01:07:13,083 People still listen to it. 1041 01:07:13,683 --> 01:07:21,048 Troy: Alex is basically surfing the web as we talk and it's, it's kind of soothing, it's relaxing. 1042 01:07:21,048 --> 01:07:22,653 I really, really like it. 1043 01:07:23,163 --> 01:07:36,430 And I'm actually enjoying making the podcast more because as we sit and talk you're bringing up references and it's, it's kind of cool, like, I think we've stumbled onto To may maybe what our, our format is that that's acceptable. 1044 01:07:36,430 --> 01:07:39,760 And actually, you know, because our format on on YouTube doesn't work in my opinion. 1045 01:07:39,790 --> 01:07:44,020 'cause it's, you know, three aging white guys talking and it just doesn't work. 1046 01:07:44,380 --> 01:07:47,380 Alex: I mean, that's what we got to work with, but we can, we can embellish it. 1047 01:07:47,585 --> 01:07:48,480 Brian: I can't change that. 1048 01:07:48,680 --> 01:07:48,970 Troy: Yeah. 1049 01:07:49,800 --> 01:07:50,640 Brian: I guess I could. 1050 01:07:51,083 --> 01:07:54,743 Alex: also, it, it, it, we, can you live in Miami? 1051 01:07:54,743 --> 01:07:55,973 Of course you can change that. 1052 01:07:56,303 --> 01:07:59,243 Just need some big fat lips and some hair plugs, and you'll be good. 1053 01:08:01,343 --> 01:08:01,673 All right. 1054 01:08:01,673 --> 01:08:02,603 I have a hard stop. 1055 01:08:02,603 --> 01:08:03,683 So do you have a good product? 1056 01:08:03,683 --> 01:08:07,433 Except this podcast, the video version of this podcast is a great product. 1057 01:08:08,078 --> 01:08:08,368 Troy: Yeah. 1058 01:08:08,368 --> 01:08:09,353 If we could keep it up. 1059 01:08:09,353 --> 01:08:11,243 Alex, thank you for doing it. 1060 01:08:13,661 --> 01:08:15,166 I, I already told you my good product. 1061 01:08:15,166 --> 01:08:17,240 It's New York on a Spring day, plants 1062 01:08:17,240 --> 01:08:17,480 down. 1063 01:08:17,510 --> 01:08:26,178 Alex: good product is, the Insta 360 link to webcam that allows you, to record your video really well and not look like, in a 1064 01:08:26,208 --> 01:08:28,158 Brian: I'm telling you, send me the link and I'll use it. 1065 01:08:28,308 --> 01:08:33,348 So I have a good product, but it's, it's a bad product, but I think it, it highlights a good product. 1066 01:08:33,348 --> 01:08:41,853 So I, I was in the Detroit airport yesterday and I passed by one of the, the economists branded stores. 1067 01:08:41,853 --> 01:08:46,293 And it, like right near, it was a Wall Street Journal store. 1068 01:08:46,503 --> 01:08:47,853 They were the exact same store. 1069 01:08:48,273 --> 01:08:50,163 And so all of these media 1070 01:08:50,163 --> 01:08:54,483 brands, you know, in the airport, retail, like there's a Buzzfeed, 1071 01:08:54,613 --> 01:08:56,778 Troy: They're just dumb licensing agreements. 1072 01:08:56,778 --> 01:08:57,108 Brian. 1073 01:08:57,363 --> 01:08:58,773 Brian: Dumb licensing agreements. 1074 01:08:58,773 --> 01:09:01,113 And so they just like do 'em as cash grabs. 1075 01:09:01,113 --> 01:09:04,263 It's the same neck pillows in as in any store. 1076 01:09:04,683 --> 01:09:16,353 And I think it's a disservice to the brands to treat it this way compared it to like someone like Monocle who makes it like a real business line with their airport retail like experiences. 1077 01:09:16,653 --> 01:09:24,693 You gotta like tend to these brands and I think it's like, it's pretty bad when, you know, look a lot, we've talked a lot on this podcast 1078 01:09:24,693 --> 01:09:32,853 about how, you know, IP harvesting, brand harvesting, whatever you wanna call it, is a big part of the future of a lot of these brands. 1079 01:09:33,033 --> 01:09:44,983 Well put some effort into it, like don't just slap your, lap, slap your logo that you've, you know, is hard earned respect over so many years of journalism on like the same old neck pillow store. 1080 01:09:45,373 --> 01:09:47,893 I would like to go into like a very economist 1081 01:09:48,088 --> 01:09:50,413 Troy: you think a neck pillow is a good, good product? 1082 01:09:50,413 --> 01:09:53,143 If I see you in the airport with a neck pillow walking 1083 01:09:53,278 --> 01:09:54,838 Brian: No, look, it's a very con look. 1084 01:09:54,838 --> 01:09:56,898 It's very controversial in, in comfort. 1085 01:09:56,898 --> 01:09:58,248 Plus you wouldn't know it at the front of the 1086 01:09:58,343 --> 01:09:58,633 Alex: Yeah. 1087 01:09:59,088 --> 01:10:03,588 Troy, there's the, the seats at the back of the plane, Troy, they don't turn into beds. 1088 01:10:04,008 --> 01:10:04,398 It's really 1089 01:10:04,557 --> 01:10:04,908 Brian: Yeah. 1090 01:10:04,998 --> 01:10:06,108 Nobody makes your bed. 1091 01:10:06,108 --> 01:10:07,278 There's no pajamas. 1092 01:10:07,518 --> 01:10:10,038 That's why people wear their pajamas onto the plane. 1093 01:10:10,188 --> 01:10:10,368 You 1094 01:10:10,368 --> 01:10:10,578 know? 1095 01:10:11,508 --> 01:10:12,843 Troy: So do you have a neck pillow? 1096 01:10:13,443 --> 01:10:14,373 Brian: I own a neck pillow. 1097 01:10:14,373 --> 01:10:14,763 Yeah. 1098 01:10:15,363 --> 01:10:16,923 I don't use it most times. 1099 01:10:17,778 --> 01:10:25,962 Troy: That's it for this episode of people versus algorithms where each week we uncover patterns shaping media culture and technology. 1100 01:10:26,366 --> 01:10:29,806 Big thanks as always to our producer, Vanja Arsenov. 1101 01:10:30,316 --> 01:10:34,996 She always makes us a little clearer and more understandable and we appreciate her very, very much. 1102 01:10:35,496 --> 01:10:38,946 If you're enjoying these conversations, we'd love for you to leave us a review. 1103 01:10:39,382 --> 01:10:42,042 It helps us get the word out and keeps our community growing. 1104 01:10:42,518 --> 01:10:44,208 Remember, you can find People vs. 1105 01:10:44,238 --> 01:10:48,678 Algorithms on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and now on YouTube. 1106 01:10:49,160 --> 01:10:51,450 Thanks for listening and we'll see you again next week. 1107 01:10:51,678 --> 01:10:52,278 That was great. 1108 01:10:52,308 --> 01:10:52,938 Thanks Alex. 1109 01:10:52,979 --> 01:10:54,950 thanks for the visuals that'll make the show better. 1110 01:10:54,950 --> 01:10:55,460 Appreciate it. 1111 01:10:55,592 --> 01:10:56,282 Brian: cool. 1112 01:10:56,342 --> 01:10:56,702 Troy: All right. 1113 01:10:56,717 --> 01:10:57,257 Alex: Alright. 1114 01:10:57,495 --> 01:10:57,975 Brian: Bye. 1115 01:10:58,125 --> 01:10:58,335 Troy: Bye. 1116 01:10:58,500 --> 01:10:58,800 Alex: Bye.