Can you show me?

Because we're going to use some hermeneutics.

Can you show me anywhere in the Old Testament where that word perpetual is not perpetual?

Because again, I understand you're appealing again.

Sure.

Any of God.

Hold on, hold on.

Wait a minute.

I thought I was going to get to have a talk here.

You asked a question and.

Hang on a second, sir, be quiet.

Okay, There you go.

I will mute you because it's not your show.

Yes, you ask the question, I'm going to give you the answer.

Genesis 6, 4.

The word olam is used referring to those who were of old Deuteronomy.

I'll get.

Just rattle off all the ones where it's used, not referring to perpetual.

Genesis 6:4, Deuteronomy 32, 7, Joshua 24:2, 1st Samuel 27:8, Job 22:15, Psalm 24, 24:7, 24:9, 25, 6, 41, 1377, 9:90, verse 2, 103, verse 17, 106, verse 48, 119, 52, 153, verse 3, Proverbs 8, 23, Proverbs 22:28, Proverbs 23:10, and Ecclesiastes 1, 10.

Should I go on for more?

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

This is Apologetics Live to answer your questions.

Your host from Striving for Eternity Ministries, Andrew Rapaport.

We are Live Apologetics Live here to answer your most challenging questions that you have about God and the Bible.

We can answer any, any question you have, whatever it may be here, no matter how hard you think it is.

I can answer any question that you have about God in the Bible.

And if you don't believe me, just go to apologetics live.com click scroll down, click on the duck icon and you can join us and ask me your hardest question.

Just remember one thing I don't know is a perfectly good answer.

I missed the, that intro there.

That was.

I think his name was Bill.

Super Sunday schools Batman or Batman.

Sunday schools.

He taught Sunday school.

But he, he wanted to say that the word perpetual doesn't mean perpetual because, well, he didn't believe in a perpetual hell.

And so, yeah, I don't think the Bible agreed with him.

And his brilliant response to Scripture was blah, blah, blah, blah.

Oh, you gotta love it.

All right, so we are going to talk about Apologetics and I have a friend backst that decided to jump on last minute with me.

Now, I would love to say that he and I have a lot in common.

We're both musically talented.

Well, okay, at least he is Cody Feels from Westminster Effects.

How are you, sir?

Andrew.

What's up, man?

Good to see you.

Yeah.

So look, I can count 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 guitars behind you.

Yeah, those are the ones behind me.

I have four more plus a bass on the other side of the room.

So.

Yeah, and those are actually my favorite on that side.

But they're shaped funny and they won't fit in that kind of stand, so.

You'Ll have to send me a picture sometime.

So.

So you and I have gotten to know each other through Going to Fight Laugh Feast.

Yep.

And you.

You.

Last time you even picked me up and gave me a ride, which was very kind of you.

Yeah.

And I got the privilege of being on your pod.

And so I. I do have a question.

I've been wondering.

We, you know, we're in a private chat and you guys talk and I know you already know I'm pop culture illiterate.

That's true.

But I gotta ask, who is Skillet?

Because clearly I'm the only one in this group that doesn't know who Skillet is.

Yeah.

So Skillet is pretty much the largest Christian rock band on the planet at the moment.

And.

And let me grab this.

So, John Cooper, their frontman and bassist, lead vocalist, he's.

He's been very active in combating deconstructionism, wokeness and whatnot.

He's written a couple of books, done a fantastic job.

But I have with Westminster Effects, Seth Morrison, their lead guitarist, signature distortion pedal.

Okay.

It's the 27:16 for Revelation 1:6.

James White provided the Greek in the background.

That's Codex Sinaiticus does Nerd alert.

And.

Yeah, so there you go.

Well, we, we.

We have.

We have a stalker here.

Someone who should come in here and stop stalking.

But Dead Man Walking podcast, Greg Moore says Andrew and Cody is a dangerous combo.

I think the only thing that would make it more dangerous is if Greg Moore came in here.

Yeah.

Hurry up, Greg.

Get in here.

That's what I think.

So.

And.

And Brother John, I see your question already.

I'll get to that in, in a bit.

And thanks for.

I should welcome Brother John for coming in.

He's a Canadian fellow.

I don't know what he's doing in the communist country of Canada.

Come.

Come south, my friend.

Come south.

We're a little bit less communist.

He's.

He's got a big evangelism field up there, so he's probably going to stay up there.

So before we get into the topic tonight, which is going to be about Evangelism just in general.

I, you know, I've been dealing with different topics and I realized, you know, we really didn't cover what evangelism itself is.

That'd be a good thing to do when we talk apologetics is talk Apollo what apologetics is.

And so I think I said evangelism, I meant apologetics.

But I wanna, I wanna let folks get a note to know who you are.

Oh, Greg is saying I'm listening.

While packing for a Northern Michigan hunting trip.

I'll try to think of a good question.

Love you guys.

Okay.

No excuses, Greg.

You gotta have priorities.

Well, I mean, I don't know why he packs.

I mean, he's just gonna go hang out and come back.

It's not like, you know, it's not like he's actually gonna get anything.

Right, right, right.

He's gonna get some sleep, wake up early, have some coffee, you know, go.

Up there and miss.

Yeah, yeah.

You do realize he's gonna like, he's gonna snap some picture of like a 15 point buck that he hits.

Yeah.

We will take full credit when he does.

It was because of our, our jokes dragging him on.

Yeah, but, but otherwise someone will be memed into oblivion.

Yeah.

Troy says that's a burn.

So let, let folks know a little bit about you, about Westminster Effects, if there's any folks who are.

I'm totally into guitars and music.

Yeah, no, so you had to explain to me what a pedal is.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

These things that you step on and it changes how the guitar sounds.

So.

Yeah.

I'm Cody.

I live in the Greenville, South Carolina area.

I'm a deacon at my local church.

My dad is one of our pastors, been married for 11 years.

And I own Westminster Effects for the glory of God and the tone of his people.

Everything's church history, theologically themed and all that good stuff to equip the saints for the work of sounding good effectively.

And so it's.

The funny thing is I'm actually Reformed Baptist, so I have a pedal called the 1689 just to let everybody know.

It's just that Westminster Effect sounds a whole lot cooler than Second London Baptist Effects.

And, and in the guitar world, it's all about sounding cool.

So there you go.

Oh, that's great.

That's great.

All right, so Greg, Greg is saying that I, I don't, I don't know that I agree with this, but he says you guys are brutal.

Does, does count.

So if he, if he doesn't shoot anything, it's because of us.

And if he does shoot anything, it's because of us.

Because of us.

Yeah.

Either way, like, he dishes it out just as much as we give it back.

Well, typically he starts and, and we just give it back.

That's true.

That's very true.

Well, let, let's, let's start.

Well, I did.

Since we did have a question come up early, I'll.

And I know that brother John sometimes has to go out and do some evangelism.

And so let me put his question up here that he had.

His question is this.

He said, my question is, do you believe that anyone has received supernatural wisdom or genuine word of knowledge from God at any point in the last 2000 years?

Now, this is, this is a trick question because he already knows my answer.

And so he, he must want me to explain what the Bible says to him.

It's.

It must be.

But First Corinthians 13:8.

And I don't, I don't know actually Cody's position on this.

So Cody Fields, you will have to give your own answer.

But First Corinthians 13:8 says and 8.

No, I'll go a little bit further.

Love never fails.

But where there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away.

Where there are tongues, they will cease.

If there is knowledge, it will be done away.

For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the teleos comes, the partial will be done away.

Yes, I, I used a Greek word in there because people get confused on the word perfect.

It.

That word for perfect means.

It's the teleos means complete, mature, or perfect in the sense of something that's coming to completion or maturity.

It doesn't mean absolute perfection.

So I would, when I look at this and in my evaluation of it, that teleos is scripture, so when the canon was complete, no, there was no more need for the, the prophetic gift of writing scripture or the knowledge.

Both of those are revelatory gifts or they were partial.

This says when, when we, we know in part, we prophesy in part.

But when the perfection, the maturing, the completion of something comes, what's partial is done away.

So whatever the telios is, it has to be directly tied to the fulfilling the, to the completing of both parties, prophecy and knowledge, those two being revelatory, then the completion of it would be revelation.

So you already knew that, John, but I know you just wanted to hear the truth again.

But Cody, you, you agree?

Disagree.

What are your thoughts on that?

So first I would, I would note the actual wording of the question.

Andrew you being a dispensationalist, you should have taken that literally.

And 2000 years ago was the year 25 A.D. yes, yes, you are right.

So regardless of one's position on cessationism or continuationism, we.

You're right.

The answer has to be yes.

Yes, yes.

Good.

Good play, my friend.

Yes, you are absolutely right.

Got him.

Yes.

I mean, I'm a little bit of an oddball.

I don't.

And this is something I've been chewing on processing for several years.

I don't think the terms continuationism and cessationism are really all that helpful for me because I think you have to go farther in First Corinthians 13 to get the full context.

For now, we've seen a mirror dimly, but then face to face.

And I think personally that that passage is pointing toward the return of Christ, the consummation of all things.

So I don't necessarily the perfect there is scripture, but I think the better way to think about spiritual giftedness is what is absolutely necessary for the administration and functioning of a local church and what are really nice add ons.

If God decides to do something out of the ordinary.

Right.

And so can and does he still heal people?

I think, yeah, we would absolutely agree.

Maybe it's not on command like the apostles, but he heals whenever he wants.

Bingo.

The, the preaching of the word that, you know, that's a gift.

Right, but.

And that has to happen for a gathering on the Lord's day.

Right.

Stuff like that.

And so ultimately I think those, those two terms aren't all that helpful in the grand scheme.

I could be wrong.

A lot of people disagree with me.

A lot of really smart people disagree with me.

John MacArthur used to agree with you.

He agrees with me today.

Oh, wow.

I see what you did there.

But no, so, and, and partially because of what, what you said.

So let's, let's deal with the first part where you said.

And then the labels, because I think you make a really good point with the labels.

All right, so if we look at this text, you're one of the things we have to do hermeneutically, right?

We look at this, the, the whole thing.

If you look at First Corinthians 12, 13 and 14.

Let's back up even more.

The entire book is a book of correction.

The whole book?

Yeah, the whole book.

It's like you knuckleheads don't get a single thing right.

I mean, that's basically every chapter you.

Can summarize it with.

Are you serious right now?

We well, you know, since we have a stalker and we could summarize it by.

Are you Greg Moore?

Oh, no, sorry, sorry.

That's a little far for some of those things.

We'll get him to come in and comment sooner or later.

Oh, that's good.

That's good.

So.

So what I.

What did you.

You have to realize is that this is.

The whole book is a book of correcting them on.

On bad theology, on right things that they're doing wrong.

There's not a single praise, kind of, it seems, through the whole book.

I mean, like, every chapter is like, another thing you knuckleheads did wrong.

So when people say, oh, suddenly in.

In the middle verse, chapters 12, 13, 14.

Oh, that suddenly is all instructional.

And he's praising them for what they're doing.

It.

It doesn't fit.

I mean, chapter 12 is all about guys.

Love is primary.

Right?

So.

So, like, you read that, and he's constantly emphasizing love.

That tells me that it's like, you guys are not loving one another.

You're failing in the area of love.

Chapter 13.

Well, most people know that only from weddings where they.

They re.

Have the first part of that red.

When my wife and I got married, I explicitly told my pastor I didn't want.

Want First Corinthians 13.

Read.

That's.

That's my only thing.

Like, don't read that one.

Yeah, well, you know, when my daughter.

I'm gonna.

I hope I don't get in trouble for telling the story, but my daughter, when she.

She got married, she was very explicit that she did not want me doing the wedding.

And at first, I was really offended.

I'm like, I'm a pastor.

I know how to do a wedding.

She's like, dad, you.

You can't do what we want done in our wedding.

I'm like, what can I do in a wedding?

I know how to do a wedding.

Right?

And then I. I saw her wedding, and she.

She wanted to kind of surprise me a bit too, with it.

And when I saw her wedding, after the wedding, I said, you're right.

I couldn't have done that.

The.

The entire wedding.

There was.

There wasn't scriptures about love and things like that.

All of the scripture was Old Testament prophecies and New Testament fulfillments.

The entire wedding was geared at evangelizing my unsaved family.

Wow.

And had I done it, they would not have heard any of it.

They would have.

They would have assumed I was behind it all.

But that's funny.

With my daughter being behind it all, they were okay with it.

Yeah.

That Andrew guy.

Yeah.

So.

So when we look at first Corinthians 13, it again, now it's not focusing on love being primary, but what love is.

And then chapter 14, it's going to talk about the order of service and the way things should be and what we, we see.

And Troy, Troy is saying that what my daughter did, he says, praise the Lord.

That's awesome.

It was, I mean, it was so well done, Troy, that my, my sister in law, some of the guys that are on my board of directors, they were like, hey, who's, who's this person?

I said, that's my sister in law.

Like, man, every time scripture was being read from the New Testament, she was like telling the kids to quiet down real loudly.

When the kids weren't making any noise, she just was like, will you guys stop?

She was just trying to drown it out.

So it was like, clearly the point was made.

All right, so first Corinthians 13, we, when we look at 8 to 12, that's the passage that deals with this, talking about the gifts.

Now in, in chapter 12, you're seeing that the, the emphasis on love as a primary gift, that, you know, that we all have different gifts, which.

Right.

There is an issue when, and not all charismatics do this.

I've talked with brother John.

John would say that, you know, he doesn't think everyone should have all the gifts.

Not everyone should speak in tongues.

But.

So there.

Not everyone says that, but the first.

But chapter 12 clearly says we shouldn't have the same gifts.

Now you brought up the point.

And, and John brings this up as well.

He says here, similar to you, he says First Corinthians 13.

But Paul is talking about seeing Jesus face to face, not the Bible.

And honestly, I can name even.

I cannot name even once he says I can.

But I think I cannot name even one cessationist in my church history who held the view appealing to scripture.

Well, actually there's, there's many who held to that view, but I do it because of the, the just looking at it one by one.

So let's break this down.

The, the direct question is, what is the teleos, the word perfect in our Bible?

What I can see clearly is that it is tied directly to the knowledge and prophecy being partial.

So whatever it is, it has to complete the knowledge and the prophecy.

Now, the mistake I think that people make is that when you look at verses 11 and 12, you have three illustrations there and what do they illustrate?

Something coming to maturity or completion.

Okay.

Or if you want to use the word perfection, it's, it's the idea of it.

It's coming to completion.

Right.

You have a child to adulthood.

You have a mirror to face to face.

Now, the reason I, I don't think think this is speaking of Jesus is because it very clearly says, for now, I see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face.

Now, the mirrors that they had in that day were not the mirrors we have today.

And I think this is why people have struggled with it, because they look in a mirror and they can see very clearly, but go take a spoon, flatten it out, and then look at it.

And that's what they would have.

Right.

You don't see clearly.

So there was a big difference between seeing in a mirror and it even says dimly.

And that's being compared to seeing face to face.

So you have childhood compared to adulthood, maturity, seeing dimly versus seeing clearly, completion or maturity.

And then the last one that he says is for I know in part, but then I will know as I'm fully known.

Again, it's the idea of partial to completion.

So you have three different ways he illustrates the very meaning of the word telios.

And so you never take, I mean just a rule of interpretation, you do not take the illustration and, and make it the main point.

The it's.

What does it illustrate?

And what this was illustrating is the main thing of, of the completion.

Now why is it future?

Well, because it hasn't been completed yet.

He's saying when the teleas comes, that's future.

So where we're looking dimly, we'll then see clearly where we're acting, as it were as a child in our thinking now, will be complete as it.

As an adult, then as we partially know, we'll fully know.

But all of that has to do with the idea of something coming to complete completion.

The only question though is what is the teleas?

Right.

And so the teleas has to be tied to the prophecy and knowledge.

So let me, let me throw you a big curveball.

Sure.

Just because this came to mind.

So in Doug Wilson's commentary on Revelation, when the man comes around, which he argues for a partial preterist view, he says that Revelation 21, particularly with the new Jerusalem being labeled the Bride.

So the new Jerusalem is the Bride of Christ, the church.

Revelation 21 is describing the Bride of Christ making her way down the aisle in history.

And so if the church is making her way down the aisle, then that's some maturity there as well.

So I think if we're talking maturity and there's some kind of gradualness to it.

Not only does that lend itself to a more continuationist perspective, it also lends itself to post millennialism, where we get in First Corinthians 15.

Well, see, but he starts with the post millennialism and then reads it back in.

But you know that it's, it can't like, so there's, there's.

I have a paper if, if anyone wants on at Striving Fraternity.

If you look up first Corinthians 13, just put that in the search.

I think it's, I think the other, I think it's titled what does the word perfect mean?

If you search for that.

But basically I give.

There's about seven different views.

It could be, as John is saying or you were saying, and I think Brother John holds too is it could be the second coming of Christ.

It could be the church being fully developed.

I do struggle with that only because I don't see how that's tied to knowledge and prophecy.

Right.

The, the coming of Christ.

The reason people mostly say that it's speaking of Christ is because they see the idea of seeing face to face as being literal instead of a, instead of an illustration.

And the note, as I'm fully known, they say, well, I'm only going to know fully when I'm in heaven.

And so therefore it really wouldn't be the second coming, it'd be the moment we die.

Right.

Because I wouldn't go with that one.

Yeah, but that is one that many hold to.

Yeah, go ahead.

Yeah.

I think one of the things that gets people stripped up here as well is a lot of times the extremes in the argument are all that's presented.

And so you've got like the abuses of Pentecostalism, charismatic theology, and then you've got like the rigidly cessationist guys where it's, where there's, there's only like four of them.

But there are guys out there there who say that there are no gifts of the Spirit at all now.

And, and that's silly.

And so I think taking a more down the middle approach of yes, God gifts people.

Now how does he gift people?

And then getting our terms correct helps with all of that because I don't think the gift of tongues is the gift of saying hakuna matata on repeat.

Right.

Like, I don't think it's a personal prayer language.

I think it's actual human languages and furthering the spread of the gospel.

So I think when you get those straight, I think that's I think that starts to inform your understanding of how the rest of it should work anyway.

Yeah, I think that we have, there's rules to interpretation, right.

And we have to apply those.

Now you and I would apply them a bit differently, right.

As a dispensationalist versus someone who is a covenant, you know, covenant theology.

But there, there we do have to recognize that we're going to come to things differently.

Right.

But we, you know, that's why I, I think the mistake many make though is to take the illustration and make that literal.

And we don't do that with illustration.

Right.

I mean no one thinks that, you know, no one takes the, the, the parable of the sower, the seeds and says, well, Jesus was like literally throwing seeds and, and that's produces the.

You know how we get saved.

When you evangelize on a college campus, you have to take bird seed and throw it at people.

Yeah.

That's how you do it.

Right.

That would be fun.

We could.

So okay, so Brother John and we'll.

We'll finish this up and then get to.

I think.

I think Dead Man Walking had another comment.

But he says, can you name one reformer who taught First Corinthians 13 is the Bible?

And, and then he said so no words of wisdom or knowledge since John died.

Notice I didn't say since John died, but before I get to a list, Troy Dickinson said there's plenty of reformed commentators that held to this passage speaks of the, of the, of the knowledge.

John Gill, Jameson Foster Brown, Matthew Henry.

So th.

Those are a few.

Let me give some that I, I quickly looked up some Jonathan Edwards, John Owens supposedly.

And I'm going to say that this is, this is from Chat GPT.

So we know it could lie, but we'll have to check.

You know, we have.

I did tell it to check its sources, but I forgot to tell it to cite the sources so I'd have to look it up.

But they, they, they do provide some of the, some of the quotes so we could check.

But supposedly Jonathan Edwards, John Owens, Thomas mathen, Charles Hodge, B.B.

warfield, Louis Schaefer Sperry, Charles Ryrie.

That one I think I know.

Dwight Pentecost, Robert L. Thomas.

Well, Robert L. Thomas was a professor of Greek at Master's University, Master's Seminary.

I wouldn't be surprised he holds that.

Now I like this one one.

Some King James only independent Bible teachers.

And I only I, I only know one name on here, Peter Ruckman.

And I wouldn't hold him.

So I, I do like that, that is funny.

You gotta, you gotta like that in.

Fantastic company at that point, right?

Hey, I'm not gonna just give the names where it's, you know, we're just, it makes it look good.

But I, you know, I'm saying that say, though I would have to check the, the citations on, on all those to, to see if that's, that's actually valid.

And as, as Greg was trying to pack.

So he says he, he did post a, a question.

He says, what are your thoughts on Luther's writings stating that the Jews of Jesus day were not in fact Jewish, but Edomites having been descendants of Isaac and not Jacob where Jesus was the true.

Let's put the next part of it up.

Jesus.

G. So whereas Jesus was in fact a true.

As having been descended from Jacob and the true house of Israel.

Of course he went there.

Of course he did.

Thank you, Greg.

Yeah, so I, I actually, so I have to be honest, I have not read a lot of Luther to.

On the issue of, of his view on the Jewish people at the time.

I, I read a little bit and it seemed most of his views were more political in nature.

Right.

And not really theological so much.

And so the argument that he made that if he made that argument, and I'm, I'm just not sure, but if he made the argument, I, I think that I'm looking at that and saying, is he, is he holding to a view that he sees these people in, you know, that politically he has an issue.

And then because of that, he's starting to read in a theological view.

Because I think we see this today, Cody.

We see people today who take a position of covenant theology, see that the church is Israel and then take that to say, well, the Israel that exists today is not Israel.

Okay, so now there actually was a guy that told me that the people, people there are, are not Israel.

I said, it's, it's not this.

There's.

There's no state of Israel today.

He goes, no, like, then what are the people that live in a state in that area that's called Israel?

Right?

I mean, it's like now, yes, anyone can claim, okay, I, I can set up a state and say this is Israel.

Does it make it.

Yeah, I think a lot of it is a. I do think there's a struggle with the way we use words Israel.

There's a spiritual connotation to Israel.

There's a national connotation to Israel.

There's, there's, you know, there is a country or state, you know, nation of Israel.

There's also a people of Israel.

Then there's this, the spiritual Israel.

Right.

I think we dealt with some of this on, on your podcast when you had me on the Westminster Effects.

Yeah, some what.

Which, by the way, I loved you called it.

Sound like you know how to fight or something like that.

Fighting fair, I think.

Fighting fair, yes.

Nobody had bloody noses after that one, we'll say that.

But.

But what?

I think one of the things that trips people up is that we, we interchange Israel and Jewish so often, and we, and we don't grasp often where the term Jew came from.

I said that a little harshly, like, yes, I'm not, I'm not buddies with Nick Fuentes, I'll say that.

But.

But when, when Abraham's, When Abraham was originally called by God, his descendants were not called Jews, they were Hebrews.

Right.

And then on down you get Israelites, and then it's only after the kingdom splits that you get Jews because the northern, what was it, eight and a half tribes or so were, were mass deported.

Yeah.

Trump was previously incarnate as a Babylonian king deported them all.

And they were lost to history for all intents and purposes.

And, and that's where you get new.

Right.

And so that's, that's part of the, the fight over the dictionary with what a Jew is, what an Israelite is and all that kind of stuff.

So Maba make Babylon great again.

Is that.

That'S what our R2K friends.

Yeah.

So, yeah.

So actually the, the word Hebrew, we, we think from what we've looked, you know, from what archaeologists have studied and people research it, the word Hebrew.

Well, so the word Israel we have from scripture, right?

You have, you have God changing Jacob's name to, to Israel and so his, so his descendants become Israelites.

Right?

Now.

Prior to that, they were called Hebrew because what we, what it seems is when Abraham was wandering around on his way to Canaan, he went to an area that's where there was a similar language.

And the language would be Hebrew.

It actually wouldn't have been.

It would have been herbu.

It would have been close to that Is.

Is.

And so the idea that, you know, Abraham probably was called a Hebrew because of the language.

Right.

The Israelites are called Israelites coming from Jacob because God changed his name.

I don't know whether.

I think you're probably right.

I haven't, I have never researched this part, but that the word Jew or, or Jewish or Judy, Judaism would come from Judah because that there was a split in the kingdom.

So the northern Tribes were called Israelites, and the southern tribe, which was mostly Judah, were called, you know, Jewish.

I could see that, you know.

Yeah, I think, I think it pops up, I think it originally pops up somewhere around second Kings.

I could be wrong.

It's either that or like Ezekiel, but it's, it's deeper into the Old, into the Old Testament than, you know, like Exodus or Joshua or something like that.

So what.

One interesting thing, because I can't say you're my favorite Jew because my wife is part Jew, but hold on.

The question is, was her mother Jewish?

I don't, I don't remember.

But she's part Ashkenazi Jew.

I don't.

Yes.

Judaism is the only religion passed on from the mother to the child.

Interesting.

But.

So here's, here's the really funny thing though is she's part Jewish, but she also has a, like a great uncle who is like fourth or fifth in line to Hitler in the ss.

So her, her sense of humor is pretty dark.

But.

But when it comes time to pay reparations, she's going to just pay herself and call it even.

Yeah, but, but you are my favorite dispensationalist.

And so you, you actually do.

You don't see this in most pop.

Dispensationalism is.

You actually do recognize the difference between spiritual Israel, physical Israel, ethnic Israel.

A lot of, A lot of dispensationalists just flatten that out.

And, and what you're doing actually helps the conversation between dispensationalists and covenantalists where you can actually find a little bit of common ground in there.

Well, thank you for that.

Yeah, I mean, that's what I'm trying.

I am partially because I'm sick of all the tribalism that we have because it's just.

We're dividing, dividing.

But if we talk past each other, you know, I, I find that we have a lot more agreement in the different camps than we disagree.

It's just we're often talking past one another.

That's so true.

That.

And that's kind of what I was getting at earlier with the continuationism versus cessationism definitions is so often we're just talking past each other, not actually like listening, letting each other use terms as we're using them.

Yeah, because as you brought out the, the and I, we didn't get back to the terminology because you, you brought a good point even when you were describing.

I clearly, as a cessationist, believe that God can heal.

But as you said, it's just, I Don't believe God gives the gift of healing where you can, you can heal on command.

Sure.

Right.

It's, it's only these miraculous gifts that somehow people are like, well, those are different than all the other gifts.

But then they want to say, but they continue because all the other gifts continue.

But it's like, if they continue because the other gifts continue, then they should be like every other gift where you can do it on command.

Right.

And we seem to see that.

But at the same time, it still has to be fueled by the spirit.

Right.

So there are definitely times when I lead my small group Bible study where we get in the car and I'm just like, what was that?

And then my wife was like, that was really good.

And I'm like, were you in the same Bible study as I was?

Because that I felt herky jerky and just stumbled over questions and whatever.

And then there's times where I feel like I absolutely nailed it.

And it's like, that was okay.

Oh, I've had times, I've had times where I, I preached and I'm like, where did that come from?

Like, I, I, I.

It wasn't in my notes.

And, and I remember there's one specific message where I said something.

I'm like, I, I literally want to stop preaching and write it down.

And I was like, well, it's being recorded.

I'll get it from there.

And it wasn't recorded.

So, so, yeah, I'll throw this up for now.

We'll see if he comes in.

But destroyer of Protestant heresy says, what faith are you defending?

The true faith of Scripture, not that of the Catholic Church.

That's the heresy.

Or is it Eastern Orthodoxy?

Orthodoxy, yeah, either one.

But if it's, if either one, they base it off of a church, not the Bible there where we would be sola scriptura.

They would be sola ecclesiastica.

So, yeah, but he can come in and discuss it.

One, one thing.

I've been perusing this.

It's, this is one of my favorite books.

It's a dictionary of early Christian beliefs that, and so it's, it's just.

So I flopped open to Israel of God.

And you've got stuff from Justin Martyr and from.

Oh, goodness, this entire first page is Justin Martyr.

Second Clement, even though we know that's not actually Clement, but Irenaeus and so on.

And so one, this is my, one of my favorite things because you can just find what did the early church guys think about X?

And then you can obviously go back, check the context and Stuff like that.

And by the way, they agree with me.

Oh, yeah.

I'm not surprised.

Wait, let me.

What.

What is that?

Give that again.

The Dictionary of what?

Yeah, a Dictionary of Early Christian beliefs.

A reference guide to more than 700 topics discussed by the early church fathers.

The editor is David W. Burcott.

Yeah.

Okay.

And so, I mean, you've got Israel of God, you've got pagan gods, you've got the Depravity of Man and Book of Daniel, like, just all kind of stuff.

And it's been.

It's been really helpful for me.

All right, so you looked up Israel.

Yeah, yeah.

So we.

Yeah, I just pulled it up.

By the.

By the way, this character.

Where.

Where was it?

He.

He says, I'm not gonna just.

I won't read all of this because I don't use foul language.

But he says Protestant faith, the destroyer of Protestant heresy, says Protestant faith, question mark.

I don't think I said that we're Protestant faith.

Did I said the faith of the Bible?

Because I'm not a. I. I'm not really protesting.

I'm a dispensational, so it'd be a separatist.

So he says that's true.

Protestant Protestantism has many faiths.

And the Pentecostal faith, the evangelical faith, the Mormon faith, the Baptist faith, etc.

Can you leave that up?

Can you leave that up?

Yeah, yeah.

So this is what so many, I guess, whether he's Roman Catholicism or Eastern Orthodox guys get wrong is scratch Mormon, because that's a cult.

Everyone knows it's a cult.

But when you start talking about Baptists, Pentecostals, Evangelicals.

Actually Orthodox Methodists, Presbyterians, Anglicans who still believe the Bible and.

And whatnot.

It's not different faiths.

It's just different takes on the same faith.

Just like how I'm covenantal, you're dispensational.

We still agree on 95% of stuff.

It's just the stuff where I'm right that you disagree with.

Yeah, but.

But we would both see that we're.

That we're both saved by Christ, by the same faith that saves us.

That.

That is Even.

Even Brother John up there in Canada, who has the questions about the.

The gifts.

Yeah.

I believe he's saved.

Yeah.

Even if his family is good friends with, you know, Kenneth Copeland and, you.

Know, it even could be that this guy at.

Destroyer of Protestant heresy.

So edgy.

It could even be that he's saved because we're saved by.

By grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

We're not saved by the perfect understanding of those doctrines.

Correct.

And so I would destroyer of Protestant heresy.

I would back off of the arrogance a smidge.

Well, I would, I would say come on in, apologize live dot com.

You are more than welcome to join and challenge us.

I don't mind.

I love a good challenge.

So.

But yeah, no, you bring up a really valid point because the fact is is that when we look at, when we look at what we hold to, there's only two religions in the entire world and that's it.

Yeah.

There's man made religion and there's divine religion.

And you and I may have different ideas of how to, how to work things out in as far as scripture, but the reality is, is that we both believe that God, God does the work of salvation, not by works.

And every man made religion, Roman Catholicism, Islam, like if he wants to throw in all these things and say they're all different faiths, well then you know, Catholicism, Islam, modern Judaism, which I call Rabbinic Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, they're all works based salvation.

You get right with God by do you can have faith plus works.

But they'll say you have to do works.

And so because of that it's a man made religion because they always put human effort in and diminish God's effort.

Have you ever seen the, the YouTube channel is heliocentric.

It's a guy's music project but it's his main thing that he does is the, the atheist church audit.

Have you ever seen that guy?

No.

So he, he was in, let's see, he went to the fire School of Ministry, so Dr. Michael Brown's school in the Charlotte area.

And I want to say he went to Wheaton and it was while he was at Wheaton that he deconstructed, lost his faith.

But he still, he still somehow finds religion attractive.

And so he'll go to different churches in his area or like farther out, whether it's Anglican or mega church or he actually visited Catherine Crick's quote unquote church.

But he went to his statewide Jehovah's Witness convention.

It was like the three day thing in the Raleigh Durham area.

And at one point he got a little more candid with some people he was talking to and he said what's actually beautiful about this, about this thing that you believe?

And they said, well we're not falling apart like the rest of the world.

And that's, that's about all they could do is we have a better life kind of.

Yeah.

As opposed to the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ, the second person of the triune God who's put his glory on this.

Right.

And yeah, something like what we would say.

And so even that guy recognizes there's something entirely different about like reformed theology or even like general evangelicalism as compared to pure works based trash.

Yeah, well he, he says this since we're saying there's you and I would have the same faith.

He says if there's no difference in faith then one, why even leave the Catholic Church if it's the same faith?

Well, okay, I'm going to leave this up so we can go through this.

He says if there's no difference in faith then why leave the Catholic Church?

Well, actually we didn't leave the Catholic Church.

We.

But Protestants left the Roman Catholic Church.

Right, exactly.

Because Catholic just means universal.

And so the Roman Catholic Church wouldn't be part of the Catholic Church because they have a different gospel.

Galatians, the whole book of Galatians talks about this.

When you add works to the gospel, you have a gospel that is anathema.

That's what scripture says.

And I, I believe that Roman Catholics can be saved, but it's in spite of the gospel that Rome preaches.

Right.

So the Roman Catholic Church absolutely preaches a false gospel, but I believe that there are absolutely Roman Catholics who are saved in spite of that.

But, but even looking, looking at his question, his question doesn't even recognize history in the first place because like Pentecostalism didn't come out of Rome.

Right?

Correct.

Like you have, you have.

No, but it did go back, it did go into Rome.

Yeah, they're, they're now, they're now copying the Pentecostal movement.

Right?

That's true.

Where you've definitely got like the charismatic movement infiltrating practically everything if we're honest.

But that's neither here nor there.

It's not different faiths.

Like let's not pretend that the Roman Catholic Church is all uniform.

When you've got, when you've got like active homosexuals, unrepentant homosexuals being confirmed in the Roman Catholic Church by liberal priests on one hand and then you've got your South American Mary Mariology or Mariolo tree is what I'm trying to say.

The over emphasis on Mary in South America and then you've got like all kinds of different sects within Roman Catholicism.

It's not uniform at all.

No, look, anyone that's, that's, has anybody that has watched this show historically knows that we've had bunches of what's Called I mispronounce.

I can't properly pronounce it, but set of a cantists, which are people that believe that ever since Vatican ii, the Church is not the church.

Right.

So they're protesting too.

Yeah.

Right.

And, and what someone that would be most well known in that is Mel Gibson, who doesn't think the Pope is Catholic.

Oh, I didn't realize that.

Yeah, I didn't know that he was in that group.

That's interesting.

Okay, so, and this is the one thing I love about the show.

You and I had a plan, right?

I, I of talking about what is apologetics.

We may never get there.

And that's fine.

We, we.

The show notes will be for next week.

All right, so, and, and maybe, you know, as destroyer of Protestant heresy, you're more than welcome to going to apologetics live.com and, and join us in, in the discussion.

And in fact, if you, if you feel, hey, you want more time, you know, you can email me, just, you know, email, you know, the ministry at Apollo, at Striving Fraternity.

I'll let you on for two hours.

We'll make you a special guest and let you make your case.

So have no problem doing that.

If you want to email me, just in email.

Show at SFE Bible.

So SFE stands for Striving for Eternity.

So in.

So show@sfe.bible.

all right, now here's his question.

Answer me this.

Ephesians 3:20-21.

To him be the glory in the church by Jesus Christ to all generations, forever and ever.

Amen.

What Protestant sect is this?

All right, all of them.

Yeah, so let me back up, because he mentions verse 20, but he didn't quote that.

So verse 2021 says now to him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us, to him be the glory in the church and in Jesus Christ all generations, forever and ever.

So let's look at this.

First off, the focus is not on the church, it's on Christ.

Yep.

Okay, so that's the first thing, right?

And you know, this is where, you know, we, we have to look at how, what scripture actually says.

And so the issue here also you have to recognize is what does the word ecclesia mean in the time this was written?

Now, the word ecclesia, the first time that we see the word ecclesiastical in history happens to be in Ephesus.

And it was the, it referred to the gathering together for a vote.

Okay, so that's what ecclesia would mean it's.

It's the gathering together Y.

It has through.

And if anyone wants you can get my book what do we Believe?

There's.

I have a whole chapter in there on what is the Church.

And I explain how that word has changed historically.

Okay.

And so.

And I hope we.

We're going to get soon to Dave V. His comments.

They'll be.

They'll be fun.

The.

But what we have is you.

You have to see it.

This word is.

Is the idea of church is a gathering.

It is not what the Roman Catholic Church has become.

Okay.

And so the Catholic.

The Roman Catholic Church that we think of today really didn't exist until after about a thousand A.D. it was really Pope Innocence II that.

That gave us all the things they hold to today.

So they try to go, oh, we go all the way back.

No, the Roman Catholic Church was an offshoot from Christianity.

The earliest seeds of it were when you had a Roman emperor that just decided everyone's Christian in the nation.

And you had a whole bunch of unbelievers that started becoming pastors and bishops.

They started making bishops and a hierarchy things that didn't exist in the Scripture.

And they started creating all that to give themselves more authority over each other.

That's what men do.

And so when you, they.

They didn't believe the real Bible Bible, they believed in the church.

And so when you see, when a Catholic sees this word Church, they're thinking the focus is on the glory of the Church.

When it's the glory of Christ, the focus is all wrong.

What this is saying is to Christ, to him be the glory in the church.

So he glorifies himself in the church.

Church.

So when the church does well, that's because Christ is working through the church.

The other way this can be interpreted is that he receives glory from the Church.

There's two different ways that I've seen this explained.

I tend to think because of the word.

The usage, you know, here of the word for in.

I think that it's more He's.

He gets his.

He's glorified when he is working through the church.

Yeah, that's entirely reasonable.

But again, the, the emphasis is Christ.

Particularly like the.

When.

When Paul takes this.

He takes a praise break right in the middle of this letter.

Now, to him who is able, right.

According to the power that works within us.

That power being the Holy Spirit.

Right.

The third person of the Trinity to him, to this God be the glory in the Church, in Christ Jesus.

Right.

Well, he's emphasizing.

He's rehearsing the gospel there is all he's doing.

Yeah.

And the fact that it's going to reverberate through all generations until he comes back, it's not that difficult.

This is.

This is all about the glory of God and the joy of his people, which is literally every Protestant denomination.

Yeah.

Let me bring in Mr. Aaron Brewster.

Welcome.

Hey, you were.

I'm here.

You're here.

Finally made it.

It's been a while.

You just had to go up to New York and do some preaching.

And Aaron Brewster is one of our speakers at Striving Fraternity.

He is the host of, well, two podcasts, but the one that he's actively doing now is the Truth Love Parent.

But I got to tell you something, Aaron, I'm going to do.

I was going to.

I was supposed to call you and tell you this, but I might as well do it live.

So you came to our church.

You came to the.

To our church to speak to the church I attend, and we.

And now they've church disciplined you out of the church?

No, not yet.

But they would do that for me, not for you.

That's next week.

Yeah, but we.

I had a woman that came up to me at church and said, you know, I've been listening to Aaron's podcast on the celebration of God, and I just love it.

It has caused me to.

To look at every day and.

And see how, you know, God working in, like, every day is a day of celebration.

So that's exciting.

That's really cool.

Thank you for sharing that.

Yeah.

Okay, so the.

I just.

I love it.

But this.

It's just so funny to say his name, but.

Destroyer of Protestant heresy.

He says, you Protestants don't accept James 2:24.

A person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Now here's the thing that he does again.

It's.

It's the same as the before, but not exactly.

He.

He.

He takes things out of context.

Context.

No, I don't know if he, he or she.

I should be fair.

I don't know.

I mean, I can't tell from the name destroyer of Protestant heresy if it's male or female.

Arguing like a woman.

Oh, oh, that's.

That's offensive to everybody.

I do not end that statement.

That's one, Cody.

That.

Whether.

Whether male or female.

Yeah, so.

So the.

The.

This whole section, I mean, you have to understand something.

The Bible didn't come with chapter breaks and verses.

That was something that was added in centuries later, and it was to help us find things quicker.

However, if you want to get the context.

Because, destroyer of Protestant heresy, I'm sure you don't like being taken out of context.

God doesn't like it either.

And so we don't want to take him out of context.

And so if we're going to look at the context, it starts in verse 14, where he asks the question, what use is it, my brother brethren, if someone says he has faith but has no works, can that faith save him?

So the question he's asking is, he's got someone who claims to be that they have faith, but they don't have the works that go along with faith.

So the question he's asking is, can that faith save him?

The answer to the question is no, that faith can't save him.

And so that's the whole emphasis of what he's saying all the way down to 24.

So the problem you have with this is he's talking about what happens after regeneration, and you're talking about using it for regeneration.

Two different things.

Regeneration is what happens in how we get right with God.

That moment we go from being an enemy of God to a child of God.

We go from being an enemy to being justified that moment in time, that is regeneration.

Sanctification comes after that.

Sanctification has works.

And that's what James is talking about, the works of sanctification.

There should be works after someone's regenerated, and if they don't have those works, but they say they're saved you, does that kind of faith save them?

No.

And that is what.

What the rest of this goes on to say.

Because he says, if a brother or sister is without clothing or in need of daily food, and one of you says, go in peace and be warmed and filled, and yet you do not give him what is necessary for the body, what use is that?

He's not saying it saves them, he's saying that this is the behavior of someone who is.

Who does have faith.

They would do these things.

Verse 17.

Even so, if it has no works, the faith is dead by itself.

But someone may say, but someone.

But someone may say, may well say, you have faith and I have works.

Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

In other words, how do you know someone has faith by the works?

And that's consistent with the entire book of James.

The entire book of James is, is asking the question of what is genuine faith.

And he gives a, like 13 different ways of testing that.

So Protestant destroyer, Protestant heresy, you could say Protestantism is a joke.

And it's you could say it's a man made religion.

The difference is we get all of our doctrines from scripture alone and you get all of your doctrine from the church the a bunch of men alone.

Because you cannot interpret the Bible on your own.

You need your church to tell you the meaning of the Bible.

So if that means that the scripture is not your final authority, what is your final authority is your church because you need the church to interpret the scripture.

Therefore it is a higher authority than Scripture itself.

I think we should start calling him DOTH for the acronym of destroyer of Protestant heresy.

And we can doff our metaphorical hats to his terrible arguments.

Yeah, so let me.

There were some great comments or questions from someone else and I, I actually I do have to.

I, I should correct something.

Where was it from?

Brother John?

I said something wrong.

He said because I said he was family friends with Kenneth Hagen.

He says Kenneth Copeland is actually a family friend of ours and so are the Hagans.

I, I still expose their false teachings on my YouTube channel with @ great personal costs.

So I got that wrong and I will always try to correct when I'm wrong.

He did say I was friends with Kosti Hinn when I was a kid.

Been to his house and my mom taught his taught children's church at Henry Hinn's church.

That's Benny Hinn's church.

Henry Hinn is Benny's brother.

See, I know Costi now, but I don't know that counts much.

You were talking when your childhood.

So David, David V. Says the fact that people are born disabled should totally destroy the belief that your God is loving, all powerful and infallible.

Well, I could say this.

I like that one.

Yeah, I'm sure we're all gonna enjoy this one.

But I. I'll say this.

Do.

Do you believe in love?

Because if you do, God must exist.

If God doesn't exist, we're nothing but a bag of chemical reactions.

We can't produce anything immaterial like love.

So the fact that you want to identify that God is love is.

Then there should be something of love.

You're requiring God to exist first.

Aaron, I'm sure you're going to want to have something to say on this one for sure.

Well so in all fairness, just to put it, and this is generally common knowledge, something that we are open about.

My wife, she wouldn't fall under the category of disabled way that a lot of people think.

Right.

She's not in a wheelchair at this precise moment, but she does have a genetic disorder called Ehlers Danlos syndrome, that is a connective tissue disorder that affects her from her head to her toes and everything in between.

She is disabled.

She has a handicap sticker on car.

And there are a lot of ways that her world daily, moment by moment, is affected in ways that most of us who have good health wouldn't even begin to understand.

And I bring her into this because she is a Christian.

She.

Is faithfully trying to learn how to glorify God in her disability as well as obviously in every other area of life.

And in no way, shape, or form does she blame God.

Has she ever considered the fact that God isn't loving or that he isn't all powerful, that he isn't infallible?

And I think one of the reasons for this, and I think, to be honest, we haven't even spoken about this because it's not something that comes up that she's sitting there thinking about day in and day out.

One of the things I think, when people make statements like this, I think to myself, are they parents?

Like, do they have kids?

Right.

And I think that because history has taught us over and over and over again that sometimes the most loving thing that you can do for your children is to let them fail.

Now, I'm making an equivalence between what I'm saying here, letting people fail, and someone being born with a disability.

I'm gonna put this together in a second.

You'll see where I'm going.

This idea that because I love somebody, I need to create a bubble around them, that they are only ever happy.

They never encounter anything that is even remotely uncomfortable.

Right?

Even we humans recognize the fact that that type of parenting is bad.

That type of parenting, a lot of significant problems in the young people as they grow.

So from a purely human perspective, sometimes the only people capable of loving that kid, their own parents.

What you said doesn't even apply from a human perspective.

I am a loving parent who desperately wants my children's best.

And sometimes what is best for them is to do hard, uncomfortable work.

Sometimes what is best for them is to receive the consequences of the choices that they have made.

That way they can learn.

That way they can change.

Right?

So when someone makes a statement like this, you're denying some of the most basic, fundamental.

Maybe this person is a parent, and maybe you're the type of parent who only ever tries to shelter your child and you don't see any value in consequence.

And trust me, those people are out there.

They're called leftists, they're called liberals, they're called Lots of different things.

But we see our world is testament to the fact that that type of parenting is really, really bad.

It creates a terrible society.

Right.

Because people never hold responsible for their choices.

People never learn from them.

So I say all of that to get to this point that someone born.

The scriptures are very clear that that person was not born disabled because of a sin on their part.

Jesus actually told his disciples that that person, speaking of a man who was born blind, that person was born blind so that God's glory could be revealed in this person's life.

Specifically in life.

The man Jesus was talking about, because God.

Jesus was going to heal this man and he was going to receive the glory for that.

People were going to know the Messiah because of that.

But this man was born blind.

He was.

He was blind for decades before Jesus healed.

That was part of God's plan.

So God, infinitely better than a parent with their child, recognizes the fact that he's created.

Okay, so I'm gonna.

You're.

We're trying to let your audio go as much as it could, but now, now your camera went off, so your.

Your audio is really choppy.

Aaron, if you can hear us.

So I am so sorry.

Yeah, so I did not know that.

I really apologize.

Yeah, now it's good.

But it seems whenever you.

When you were talking, it wasn't.

No, it's still saying.

I'm still getting a message saying it's.

It's bad Internet.

All right, so.

So Cody, what do you think?

You.

You.

You want to respond to this one or.

I mean, we got some more we can't to respond to?

Yeah, I mean, he says the fact that people are born disabled should.

To totally destroy the belief that basically God is a thing at all.

Okay, so, I mean, so we.

So then we live in a meaningless, cruel universe.

Right?

And in that case, who cares?

Like, the.

The only logical conclusion to that is nihilism.

And so it's like there's.

There's just no point in even having a discussion at that point.

Is if every is.

If everything's meaningless, then this conversation is meaningless.

And even him saying that's meaningless.

So he doesn't even need to say that.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, the, the idea that it.

What it shows and, and this is what many professing atheists have is they want to be God.

And what they're.

What they end up doing is saying, well, if.

If God exists, he has to give me everything I want.

What does that sound like a little spoiled child?

Right?

Yeah.

And well, God loves the.

If God's gonna love.

He's got to make everything perfect for me.

Well, the world doesn't arrive around you.

Sorry.

It revolves around me.

Yeah, I mean, but, but that's, you know, and, and you'll see some of the.

Let's see.

I, we got a bunch of other comments that had come in.

Now let's see, where was it Landon said that I'm referring to me.

I'm conflating atheism with strict materialism and physicalism.

Well, atheism is the belief that God does not exist, so that only there, there is.

You know, you might want to say agnosticism, you don't know.

But if you deny, if you deny God existing, then it's, it's chemical reactions that brought about life.

It's chemicals that everything's a chemical reaction.

You don't have an immaterial world.

So now could, could he be, just for the sake of clarity, Landon, are you advocating then a non theistic spiritualism then?

Which, which is contradictory, but.

Well, you mean someone that believes in, in a spiritual realm, in a God, but not sure which God?

Is that what you're asking?

Not so much that it's, it's kind of like the, the, the Buddhist thing, right?

Like they don't believe in a personal God.

It's just kind of this ethereal thing.

Right.

So you can make a case that Buddhism is technically non theistic.

So I, I guess he could be arguing then that not believing in a personal God could still lead to some kind of belief in spiritual things.

And I guess that's where we would get things like certain, certain schools of mediums and stuff like that.

Well, he says naturalism can include abstraction, abstracts and consciousness.

The bag of chemicals trope is a strawman.

And I don't, I don't think it's a straw man because of the fact that if there is no God, how did everything come about?

It's chemical reactions.

Now if you're going to say, well, it's the natural world, you still have to account for how the natural world came about.

How did we get a consciousness?

It has to come from an immaterial source, and that's God.

He's also trying to argue out of both sides of his mouth.

Is, does naturalism result in consciousness or does atheism not necessarily lead to naturalism?

Like pick, pick Elaine, my guy.

Yeah.

And Lady Landon, you are more than welcome to come to apologexlive.com scroll down to the duck icon and join us.

Earlier he had said this the way Protestants And Catholics disagree so strongly.

Seems like a decent argument against Christianity as a whole.

I'm an atheist and.

No, you're not an atheist.

You're someone who suppresses the truth and unrighteousness.

That's what God says, not me.

God says in Romans chapter one that you know that, that God exists.

He's given evident, he's made it evident to you.

You just, just suppress that truth in unrighteousness.

But you might want to make excuses like oh look, these Catholics and, and, and Christians disagree so strongly and therefore, you know, I should just reject the whole thing.

Well some people say that two plus two equals five and some will say two plus two equals four.

You're going to throw all of math out because, or someone's wrong.

He should probably just leave America if he's American because the Democrats and the Republicans both interpret the Constitution differently.

That's right.

And it's as if atheists have never disagreed.

Right.

Like well he's pointing out Stalinism like what are we doing here?

He just pointed out the difference with national naturalism versus you know, strict physicalism.

Right.

So now we should throw some, some comments from Mr. Greg Moore.

He, he had some comments for our friend.

Catholic unity of dogma is the biggest lie ever perpetrated in any religion ever.

Because he said, because you know, our duff friend is saying that gotta use it, you know that we, you know, there's oh, all these divisions but you have divisions within the, the Catholic Roman Catholic Church.

So now Davey was made the comment saying every, everything that everyone preaches is man made a coping mechanism.

So no, that's actually not true.

I mean I, I'm not going to disagree that there is a lot of people who believe in a religious system because it's a coping mechanism for him.

That's true.

Yep.

And there's a lot of people that use religion and teach man made things.

That's true.

Yep.

I'm not going to disagree with it.

It's when he says all of them, everything.

Well that's not true.

Right.

So now it could be he just said it without.

I, I try to give the benefit doubt that he said it because he's, you know, he's just seeing it as all but not taking it literally is all.

So let's see what are some of the other comments we have?

Oh what Brother John did say this.

So this is a nice thing.

This is the previous one.

He said if I, if I had a dollar for every time I heard a cessationist say unless you clear out the Entire hospital.

Your spiritual gift isn't real.

I'd be rich by now.

Yeah, I know, but the, the reason we say this, John, is this the difference between a gift and the reality.

The gift of healing means you can heal everyone on command.

Like I can teach if I have the gift of teaching.

If I have mercy, I can have show mercy on command.

I can do that because that's, that's giftedness where when you go to the hospital, you should be able to empty it out.

Then the fact that God heals well, that's not me healing.

That's not because God gave me a gift.

That's the difference.

When you see that difference, then you'll start to understand what's wrong with the charismatic movement because they argue it's the gift.

Landon asked this question earlier and this was his first question and I didn't know his background.

So now that he professes to be an atheist, I'll enjoy answering.

He says, do you have a favorite apologetic argument?

Simply put, the argument, the argument would be that that argument proves God exists.

When you ask the question, Landon, of my favorite apologetic argument, it is the fact that you just use things that are immaterial, universal and absolute.

Like the laws of logic, knowledge, truth, morality, your ability to reason.

All of those things are immaterial, absolute and universal and come from an immaterial, absolute, universal source, God.

So even when you ask that, you're proving God exists.

This is why the psalmist in both Psalm 14 and 53 says the fool says in his heart there is no God.

Because to deny God is to use your God given ability to reason, to reason that God does not exist.

That is foolishness.

So that would be my favorite argument.

I guess I don't know.

You, Cody, you have, you have a favorite apologetic argument.

The argument from Beauty always rings for me personally.

The fact that we can actually find things and ideas and whatever beautiful and in a materialistic world and even in a, in a unitarian world, that doesn't really make sense.

But when you have a triune God and all those members are continually glorifying each other, it would then make sense for that God to continue to glorify himself in and through creation and all the things that he's made.

The family, the church.

I've got two really dumb dogs.

And somehow they glorify God in their existence and in their shenanigans.

And just the fact that creation holds together, your molecules are holding together, not flying apart, that should be, I mean, that's a Romans 1 argument.

That should be argument enough.

That.

That the triune God is who he says he is in scripture.

Now I want to make sure that we put this up to give.

Oh, no, not that one.

Where was it?

Here.

Answer is no.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

No, we'll get to that one in a second.

Landon.

Landon said.

Just to clarify, I'm not coming on this in a combative way.

Cool.

I. I would.

Sure.

Then I would love for you to come in here onto Apologetics live and.

And you know, let's have a good discussion.

I'd love that.

Yeah.

So I'll put.

I accidentally put this one up.

John asks, is your guests pre mill?

He likes to ask this of.

Of all the guests he is gonna love.

He.

You are going to be his favorite guest to make comments about soon.

Cody, what position do you hold?

Partial preterist.

Post millennial.

Yeah, he loves to pick on post mills.

Yeah.

I'm just saying he's.

Every week he's gonna.

He's gonna have an argument.

If you come on, he's gonna have an argument, you know, like, are you still post mill?

But I love more than ever.

During.

During.

So I became post millennial.

I believe it was 2019 is when.

When it wasn't that I necessarily became postmill.

It was that my wife told me I was.

She's like, just admit it already.

You're postponed.

So during the height of 2020 and all of that silliness which will remain nameless to protect the algorithm for you.

Andrew, my.

My father in law, who is, you know, I have a good relationship with my in laws, but they're premal.

They're dispensational premo.

And that's fine.

We don't hold it against each other.

But my father in law jokingly said, are you still postmill with all this stuff going on?

I was like, yeah, more than ever, man.

Let's go.

I'm having fun here.

I. Yeah, it is.

And you know, speaking of having fun, I mean, here's.

Here's John.

Brother John says, I'm fascinated by Andrew's teaching on spiritual gifts.

I can agree his interpretation is clearly his own.

And.

And a few cessationists, most of my Baptist ministers I'm friends with argue of our Are.

Are aware of these extremes.

Okay.

Oh, yeah.

I don't know.

I think he said are unaware.

I think is what he just missed.

This is one of those things where people fall into the trap of believing that just because somebody who calls themselves a Baptist holds to a position that that's what all Baptists hold to, like when you don't sit back and study, like, it's like when, it's like when those, those fundamentalists went on to Keith Foskey's show and tried to tell everyone what it is to be a fundamentalist.

And you and I watched it and we're like, we contacted Keith and we're like, no, you know, that's.

You can't just take.

What they just said was not even true.

Yeah.

Who aren't cessationists.

I've been to crazy churches that are Baptist churches.

Cessationism doesn't have anything to do inherently with being a Baptist.

So you gotta be careful because when you say things like that, you're just.

Just kind of.

Publicizing to the world, to everyone who knows that you don't really know what you're talking about.

Just throwing that out there.

Yeah.

Well, the thing is that a couple things.

It doesn't matter if I'm right, if your friends are right.

It only matters what scripture actually says.

So what you got to deal with, John, is look at the way I'm handling scripture.

Am I following the rules of language, Language and interpretation?

If I am, then I'm being consistent with the way God has spoken through language.

That's the issue.

And Aaron, not to recapitulate the entire argument, I came out as a squishy continuationist.

Yeah.

And you can just, you can just listen to that discussion later.

But now I'm the oddball in most of these discussions.

Yeah, that's fine.

Oh, okay.

Here we go.

So I figured John would say something about postmill.

He says, wow, I've only heard a few postmill and I'm learning about this.

So it's good.

It's good to learn of the different things.

So here's, I want to point this out.

So one of the things we do here, you know, is we're answering some of these things that's doing apologetics.

But I want to also explain to people the how to do it as well.

So Duff says Protestantism is a, is a big fat joke.

Even when you show them the church of Jesus did not have Paul's writings, Protestantism still rejects the church of Jesus, which is the pillar of the faith.

Now, I want you to note that we, we never rejected the church, but we didn't give it the authority that he's giving it.

But notice what he does.

He, he starts with the insult.

And, and here's, here's a simple rule, folks.

Whenever doing apologetics, when you insult people, when you have to force them to believe to, to like, look, look in politics, when you have a side that has to force everyone, they have to censor people so only their side is heard.

You know they're wrong when they cannot handle discussion on it.

Do has been commenting, commenting all the time, but he hasn't come in.

Why?

Because we've been actually looking at what scripture says.

He just keeps.

And every time we answer, what does he do?

And you.

Those in the chat can see this.

He just keeps changing topic from, from one to another to another to another.

He can't stay on a topic.

Why?

Because as we answer with scripture, what does he do?

He says, oh, they just have no answer.

Anyone listening can see that we've put up his comments, we go to scripture.

We put up his comments, we go to Scripture.

Right.

We didn't deny the Church of Christ.

We just didn't say that the church of Christ that, you know.

And he's.

That is what he claims it is.

And, and he had a, Let me see.

He had a comment in here earlier that would be good to bring up if I can find it quickly.

Let's see.

Making this weird argument about the fact that Paul was previously an enemy.

Like that has anything to do with anything.

I've been trying to get him to.

So he says here that Protestant gets all its doctrines from the Bible and then puts a bunch of laughing faces.

If that were true, why are there so many Protestant faiths?

You Protestants are a joke.

He ignores that there's different Roman Catholic faiths.

But look at this argument here.

He says all Protestant sects please you.

They, they did not exist a thousand years ago.

And the Bible says forever and ever, which means the people do not give glory to God.

In the Pentecostal Church a thousand years ago, the reality was there was no Roman Catholic Church until a thousand A.D. the church you have today didn't exist in the form it is even.

It didn't exist even until.

Even if you want to push it back and say not in the exact form.

The Roman Catholic Church wasn't a thing until the Roman Emperor said everyone's Christian.

And then a bunch of unsaved men started running the church.

So the, the reality is you don't have the Catholic Church like you think you have until many years later, hundreds and hundreds of years later.

So what did you have?

You had Christianity that the Roman Catholics had to kill the Protestants or not the Protestants, but anyone that would disagree and believe what the Bible said, they killed them.

Sounds like, you know, people that can't make an argument.

Their arguments can't stand on their own.

So what do they do?

They have to silence anybody that disagrees with them.

And that's what the Catholic Church did in the, in the name of, you know, spiritualism.

But it still killed people that disagreed with them.

Protestants, you know, we're.

Well, and I'm not a Protestant.

You keep saying Protestants.

I'm not a Protestant.

I'm a dispensationalist.

I'm a separatist.

So sorry, all, all non Roman Catholics are not Protestant.

So, yeah, you know, I would argue I'm going back to what the early church believed.

I'm not reforming the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church was, was a, a period where you had people that were not allowed to teach the truth.

There were many that did and they got killed for it.

One thing that he's missing too is in the, as the proper term for it being the magisterial Reformation is it's not that Luther or Calvin left, it's that these guys were kicked out for saying, hey, what you're doing does not show up anywhere in Scripture.

And this was in the middle of the Renaissance where the entire slogan was ad Fontes, back to the source.

Right?

And so what, what all Luther was doing was saying, hey, let's get back to the Bible.

Because men can make mistakes, but God doesn't.

And God preserved what he wants us to know about himself in this library of books.

So let's go to that.

That is the Protestant Reformation in a nutshell.

Now, you can disagree with interpretations, sure, like Andrew and I have disagreed several times here, but we're recognizing the actual core of the faith being salvation by grace alone through faith alone and Christ alone, for the glory of God alone.

So in that sense, Andrew, since you, since you agree with those solas, you're Protestant.

Yeah, There we go.

So, because I know John is going to be jetting out, he, he says this, says, I would love to have an open debate with you in a few years, Andrew.

Maybe in the next few years.

I'm still studying your teaching.

It's, it's not hard.

I don't hide them.

I have.

Come on, John.

They're, they're, you know, you can ask me questions all the time.

I answer them.

I've done a bunch of debates on.

But you know, I would, I would actually love that though, John.

I, I really would.

It would be, it would be an honor to, to do a formal debate with you.

If you wanted, or just come in and have a discussion.

We could do that too.

That, that would be a, A Pleasure.

So let's see some of the questions I still have starred.

We haven't addressed dead man walking.

If, if he is still packing for.

So.

So, you know, Aaron, Greg said he couldn't come on.

He.

He threw some insults our way at Cody and I, but he couldn't come on because he's packing for a hunting trip, which we both thought was kind of just it.

He's not really hunting.

He's just drinking coffee, you know, and sitting around and, and may maybe shooting a, a bow or a gun and missing things.

But you know, but he brought up.

Hold on, hold on, Greg.

If Greg was making fun of you guys, I need to know how.

I need to make fun of you too.

Like what was Greg saying?

No, he just said.

I think he started off by saying that we were trouble or something.

I forget how he worded it.

But he, he did have this.

I commented, I saved it from earlier, but he said Luther's argument was that Jesus was a true Hebrew.

Hebrew and the direct lineage of Jacob, the true house of Israel.

That's why Christ says that.

Says that in Matthew 10, Matthew 10:5 to 6.

So I, I don't, I don't know how Luther would make the argument that like.

So Jesus was a true Hebrew from the line of Jacob, but the rest of the Jews were not.

I'm not sure I understand the argument that Luther would have been making.

I'm not, I'm not tracking either.

And John, John did say earlier he, he did thank me.

He said, thank you, Andrew.

Not helpful to lump all continuationists into one group.

Lots of heretics among the denominations.

And that, that's the thing that, you know, we, we try to do.

Do here is to, you know, even when we have stuff, you know, trying to lump all of us in as Protestants in one group and, and even people that would never have been part of the Protestant movement because they were protesting the Protestant movement.

That's the Mormons.

They, you know, just saying.

But you know, I'm starting to wonder if Doff, if Doff is, is actually an atheist, like, because like you would almost think with a name like that they have to be Catholic.

But a lot of the arguments this person is making are, are like they've clearly arguments that would tear apart their own faith.

I.

So I don't understand what's going on.

Yeah, that's a fair point.

Yeah.

Because he's, he has, you know, you, you could very well be that he is someone from a Roman Catholic background.

But it maybe doesn't really understand even Roman Catholicism.

Well, yeah, and it could even be a restorationist background, for that matter.

That could be said as someone who was raised in the Church of Christ.

But story for another time.

Yeah, and.

And you know, I notice how often his comments are insulting.

And so let me do this for, for those who are believers, when you make arguments, we should not be insulting someone that we're trying to convince.

A.

A sure sign that you have that you don't have a good argument or you feel that the other person is making an argument you can't answer is when your only response is to insult.

That's it's evidence that you are not capable of retorting what is given.

And so we want to be careful.

Now, part of it isn't always, you know, sometimes what it is is we just feel embarrassed when someone asks a question and we don't have an answer.

We feel embarrassed.

And so, oh, well, you're just a jerk.

You're just an.

You just don't know anything.

You may.

That may be coming out of an emotional feeling that you just don't know how to answer.

Okay.

That's not a good thing to do though, because if we are going to be ambassadors for Christ, we're going to represent Christ.

We have to argue.

Well, okay.

As I've welcomed each of these people, the guy arguing for Catholicism, Landon, I think it was Dave, I believe Dave V. You know, people professing to be atheists, you're welcome to come in here any week, even if I have a guest that, you know, we're.

We devote the first hour typically to the.

To a guest if we have a guest on for a specific topic.

And then after that we.

We let anyone come in.

So if you want to come in the second hour and if you want to have a full hour to argue how the Catholic Church is right and how wrong I am for believing the Bible, you're more than welcome to contact us and just email show fe Bible that stands for striving for eternity.

And so if, if you do that you.

We will have you come in as a guest and explain your view.

Tyler Jackson has asked this a couple times.

So he really wants me to answer, but I don't know if I know enough to answer.

He says opinion on the scholarly consensus that Yahweh.

I can't.

My glasses are derived.

Derived from an older Canaanite pantheon.

It.

Yeah, it's the same.

It's the same idea that Jesus, you know, was supposedly, you know, a bunch of religions have this messianic Jesus figure and our Jesus was just an adulterated version of theirs.

Well, this is anything about, yeah, ancient.

Egyptian gods and there's.

Yeah, so that comes, I forget the books here that there was then a movie that came out of it.

Here's the thing.

When you look at all of them, there's two things of interest when they, when they look at these ancient Near Eastern gods, every one of them have two things that they all seem to have in common.

The idea of the Son of God and a birth on December 25.

Now why do I find that interesting?

Because no serious scholar believes Jesus was born on December 25th.

None.

He wasn't born.

He'd been born.

It would have been too cold to be born in a manger on December 25th.

So he was probably born, born in the spring.

Okay, it's, it's.

Well now we're going to get back to that Roman Catholic Church again.

It was the Roman Catholic Church, you know, taking a pagan holiday and trying to Christianize it and saying, hey, this is, this is when Jesus was born.

So we don't believe Jesus was born on December 25.

And when it comes to Son of God and you look at the way that they always refer to it, they're talking about the sun in the sky, which is really interesting because in Egypt the word for sun in the sky is not the same word for sun, like you know, someone's trans child.

And so that happens to sound the same in English.

It doesn't sound the same in Egyptian.

So when you look at it, you realize it's all, it's an English problem.

Now as far as arguing for, you know, Yahweh coming out of Canaan, the problem would be is that the, they weren't in that area.

Right.

They, they, they ended up in, in East Egypt first and then they came in when the Canaanites were there.

So it'd be hard pressed because, you know, it's really hard pressed for several reasons.

One, you don't have much literature of that time outside of Scripture because that it wasn't kept as well, it wasn't copied as much.

And so it becomes a difficult thing to argue that there were Canaanites rights before there was Abraham.

You have to, you'd have to prove that somehow and, and show that, you know, they, they were around and that they influenced Abraham.

And that would be really hard pressed to do.

But that's the beauty of coming up with a theory like that because you can just say things.

I mean, look, there's scholars and I forget the name of the person who asked the question?

I'm trying to scroll.

Tyler.

Okay, so, Tyler, the thing is, you have scholars who say that the first Gospel was a book called Q.

It stands for coelom, or German for source.

And they say it's the source Gospel.

So what they say is that the four gospels got.

Or really the three synoptic gospels.

Gospels got their information from this queue, and then they embellished afterwards, and John just embellished more from them.

And when you look at that, we're, we're seeing that they make this up.

And there is a book that I, I reference in my book, what Do We Believe?

New York Times bestseller.

I, I forget that the, the title of the book, but the, the author admits in the introduction, his whole book is to prove that we don't have the Gospels anymore.

We don't have the original Bible because we don't have Q.

But in the introduction, he admits there's no historical evidence Q ever existed.

We have no physical evidence of Q.

It's something that scholars made up.

And when there's no evidence for it, you just go, well, it was lost to history.

Well, why would it be lost to history when all this other stuff wasn't, right?

So it's very easy.

They had to make it up because the Bible can't be true, right?

It can't be miraculous, it can't be God breathed.

And so because it, just because it can't be that, then we have to jump through all these hoops to explain how something so perfect could have been written from a human perspective.

Hence Q and all the other ridiculous things that people think.

Deutero, Isaiah and blah, blah, blah.

Yeah, and, and I'm seeing that you're having some arguments with, with Dolph in, in the comments, Aaron.

And so I would say, you know, is, and I should have said this in the beginning.

Last week's show, we, we had a, a gentleman Roman Catholic who, Who argued for the, he argued for the, the canon.

Okay.

Including the Apocrypha.

He did admit, though, that the church didn't recognize the apocrypha until the 1500s.

And I pointed out that that was because it was in response to the Reformation.

So they didn't even.

The Roman Catholic Church didn't have their Bible until 1500s, till after the Protestantism.

So you could even argue that Roman that for doff.

You don't even.

You didn't have a Bible until after Protestantism, and it was a reaction to that.

And so the thing, though, I did note at the end of last week and And I did not pick up on this until I, I ended up re.

Listening to it.

And this is, this is a thing where, you know, sometimes we miss things and it's good to, to, to.

To listen.

Right.

Matthew made an argument at the end when I mentioned, you know, I read his book very, very quickly to.

I only had one week, less than a week to read it.

And so I didn't get the, the full argument.

And I, I didn't.

Wasn't able to check all his sources.

And he said, I'm the, I'm the per.

The, the right person that would, he wrote the book for someone that would check sources and things like that.

But remember, the, the name of his book was Canon Under Crossfire.

So his whole argument is for the canon.

But when I said that I would do a formal debate with him, it was really.

I didn't pick up on it till the, till I re.

Listened.

He said he wouldn't want to debate me because his real purpose is to address the, the Case for Christ, which is a book by Lee Strobel, and he'd be willing to debate Lee Strobel or any of those guys.

Now it's really interesting because this whole book is about the canon.

Why did he not want to debate me?

Because he said, I want to debate the canon and he wants to debate the, The Case for Christ.

I realized afterwards it was like, that's him saying, I don't want to debate you.

Like, I didn't know much of his book, but he, he probably didn't like the arguments I made.

And, and he's the one that had his, his introduction was debate me about the Bible.

And so we did.

And I think that, you know, he actually made my case in some of the cases by admitting that, you know, the, the, his whole emphasis was on the early church fathers.

Right?

And so that becomes the, the thing that you end up having is, you know, people knew what the canon was when Moses wrote it.

They didn't have to wait for the early church fathers, and they really wouldn't be the early church fathers because he didn't add the apocrypha until the 1500s.

Okay, so Tyler is saying the book is called early the Early History of God by Mark Smith.

He is a Christian scholar, and there is a free PDF copy of the book on the Internet archives.

Would, Would love for you to read it.

Maybe, Maybe I'll try to get to it.

Can we call.

Can.

I mean, can we call him a Christian scholar?

If he's making the argument that Yahweh of the Old Testament was just a refurbished.

Can you like, God?

Like, it's like when.

It's like when a deconstructionist tries to convince me I was a Christian.

If you, quote, unquote, really were a Christian, then you would know that Christians can't lose their salvation.

Like, so it's like, he's a Christian scholar.

No, he's not.

Yeah, I was kind of just gonna say, like, anyone can say they're Christian, and.

And people will say that to give themselves some.

Some account, like some authority, like, I'm a Christian scholar.

Okay.

But where did he go to school?

What does he believe?

Is he.

First we have to ask the question, is he a Christian or does he just claim to be one?

Right.

And then does he actually do scholarly work or just claim to do that?

Right.

I. I know nothing about him, so I don't know.

Could be, maybe, but maybe not.

By the way, I've.

I've given up on Dolph.

Yeah.

No, I'm done.

Well, I was going to point out, you know, he just keeps saying, you're a fool and things like that.

He just has the insults.

You know, he calls Protestantism a joke.

But he's not.

What?

I'm not saying.

I did call him a fool before.

He called me a fool.

You.

You did?

That's true.

You told him to grow up, too.

So those were not good.

But.

But the thing is that.

Well, the.

I mean, I do want to.

I. I do want to make an argument for this, though, because.

Because here's.

Here's part of the things that needs to happen.

He.

He was telling me to grow up.

I told him I'm.

I'm really.

And part of the thing about writing in these comments is the fact that you never really hear the actual voice inflection.

But I.

You know.

But what I said was I'm.

I'm the only one here trying to have an adult conversation.

Yeah, right.

And.

And when I told him was that.

I said, I'm done with you.

You are a fool.

You're not interested in dialogue.

You're refusing.

Now, what's interesting is I didn't say you're a fool because what you believe.

Correct.

I said you're a fool because you are.

You are proving your complete.

The fact that you have no interest in having a conversation.

You just want to come in here and spout your stuff and not actually engage with people.

He was refusing to answer any of the questions that I asked.

He was refusing to pursue truth.

That is a foolish thing to do so a little, little different than what he did.

But I just wanted to be fair.

I did use the word fool first.

Well, as Proverbs says, you know, don't.

You know, answer a fool.

You know, least you be like him.

Answer, you know, don't.

Don't answer fool.

Lisa, be like him, answer a fool.

TV wise in his own eyes.

Yeah, let's be wise.

So there's two different ways that the fool is being used there and how to answer them.

And you don't, you don't answer someone that he's, he hasn't, he hasn't shown an interest in an honest dialogue, which is why he probably doesn't come in here.

Tyler says, isn't that a straw man?

What, that I, that I don't know the book and that I'm.

Or that I'm saying that a scholar.

May not be claiming that he probably isn't Christian.

Yeah, that's, that's not a straw man.

You, you're probably thinking a true Scotsman fallacy, maybe, but it's a true Scotsman would be someone that has a citizenship of Scotland.

Right?

There is such thing as true Scotman.

There is a thing.

Such thing as what is a true Christian.

And he, he says, your answers are only a Google away.

Well, if, if that's your source, that's like people that say, whoa, look, Wikipedia, you know, you, you, you probably believe in a lot of things.

You, you probably believe that January 6th was, was an insurrection and it was a setup by the Democrats.

How do we know they planted fake bombs?

Just.

But also, we're in the middle of like, literally recording a podcast right now.

So Googling everything in the world is a little impractical at the, at the moment when you're trying to have a conversation.

Yeah, I, I mean, look, if he was, if he wants to come on and give me a link to the book, I'll read it, I'll go through it, I'll check the sources.

Because that's how you do scholarly work.

You don't just take what someone says.

You actually do the research.

That's what I do.

And so that takes more time.

And I, I'm not going to do that for someone that just throws it out there thinking like, oh, I got something.

I got you.

Look, some, some guy says this.

On the Internet, there's people that say everything.

Literally, Literally everything.

And, and so it doesn't make them right.

And no matter how many people believe, it doesn't make it right.

It matters whether actually is right.

So, so, yeah, There was a, we had a pretty chatty chat tonight, folks, a lot of folks.

But I, you know, the one thing, Cody, that I noticed, none of them came in.

They were just warriors behind their keyboard.

It's easier that way.

Yes, it's a whole lot easier, especially.

For Doff, because if he's on here, he would, you know, he'd have to answer, you know, kind of like what happened in the very intro where, that intro we played where someone said that the word perpetual.

Oh, you know, is there any word.

Doesn't mean perpetual?

And I gave him dozens of verses.

He didn't like it.

The funny, the funny thing real quick about that is that was right when I came in, into the streamyard link, and I was just like, is this, is he already throwing down with somebody, like right now?

It hasn't even started yet.

What's going on?

Oh, okay.

Yeah, we have, we.

There's a bunch of really good ones that I, I, I like to have on.

You know, some of them are just, you know, we, you're, you're Church of Christ, so let's, your background, I should say.

Yeah.

So I had a Church of Christ pastor that came in and we were arguing over whether was Christ's death sufficient or do we need to be baptized Right here.

Here's how this went down.

Like, this is, this is someone that at least is he.

He's unlike Dolph.

He, he was, he's not like, insulting.

He's not.

He realizes he's caught.

He realized he just got trapped.

And I wasn't trying to play some debate trick or something.

I'm trying to help his thinking.

And he realized his argument just fell apart.

Listen to this.

So it's all that we need.

Not only sufficient, but the only thing that could be done for us.

Okay, so we don't need baptism then, because it's the only thing.

Is it, Is it the only thing or is it not?

Do you need to be baptized or not?

Because if you need to be baptized, it's not sufficient.

It is true that you are an extremely skilled debater and you're good.

And so.

No, I, I don't, I don't think this has anything to do with it, but when Norm came in, Norm was very active recording on a weekly basis.

And after he came in and we had that discussion, I don't think he, at least my, Our friend John, who, who, who had Norm come in, told me like, many months later that he has not done another recording since then.

And, and I, I, I don't think It, I, I said to John, it probably has nothing to do with that.

It probably, you know, health concern or time.

Probably not that, but it is funny.

Landon asked, what time does this typically end?

10 o'.

Clock.

Yeah, I'm happy to hop on for a few minutes if it's not too much of an interruption to the Dolph versus the World show.

I, I like this guy already.

I really do.

Hey.

Hey, Landon, would you be around next Thursday night?

If you, if you.

You are, email me at.

Showf.

Bible.

SF stands for striving for Eternity.

So email me if, if not next Thursday, we could figure another Thursday.

Love to have a conversation with you and.

Yeah, but we're just.

I was actually just about to come to close out the show.

Well, real quick, I think Taylor just put in something really important.

Can you highlight this?

I think this is really important.

We need to hit on this before we end.

As a Christian, how do you know.

How do you now know what the.

What Bible scholars believe?

And how do you determine what is right?

Cognitive dissonance.

And this is really, really important.

This is why Catholics want a Pope.

This is why people read horoscopes and crystal balls.

This is why we always say, children love the security of offense.

Right?

They say they hate it, but really that security is really important.

We believe in the priesthood of the believers.

We believe that it is our responsibility to read, understand, and apply God's Word faithfully.

We believe that it is our responsibility to know the Word.

Now, a humble individual is going to lean on those who have gone before, those who are more studied, those who are more, who have done this for longer.

Right?

I'm not just gonna read something and go, this must be the answer.

I want to be humble.

I want to be wise.

I want the Scriptures, interpret the Scriptures.

But that's how we do it.

It's not cognitive dissonance.

It's not.

It's because you're right.

I see it from, from one perspective, all these biblical scholars are disagreeing with each other.

I get how that looks.

I understand.

But the Scripture only means what the Scripture means.

And God has given us the responsibility as individual believers to read His Word, know His Word, interpret His Word.

And we individual, humble followers of Christ need to do everything we can to make certain that we understand the Scriptures the way God intended them to be understood.

Yeah, that's a good point.

So Landon says, would love to chat with you guys.

That, that, that would be great.

I would enjoy that.

So Andrew from Down under in Australia says, SFE goes into serious Overtime.

Yeah.

I have a feeling if we started now, we'd probably have another two hour conversation.

I'm trying to stay away from those four hour shows anymore, anymore three hour shows.

Any of those.

Because, well, just saying some of us are older and our bladder just doesn't go that long.

But Andrew says watch it.

I'm a Protestant.

Oh, he's just, he may be just coming in in the morning there and just seeing Dolph.

But Landon, contact us.

Let's, let's get you on and have, have a discussion.

Cody, love having you on.

Tell folks a little bit how they can, well, if they want to play guitar, how they can get your pedals and so they could be distorted.

See, it's just like your theology is distorted.

You like to distort music as well.

Well played, sir.

Well played.

I had to get you, I had to get you back for the earlier comment.

You, you do know that you're not gonna just throw it down with me and I'm not gonna return in kind.

And this is why we're friends.

But yeah.

Westminster effects.com follow me on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, TikTok.

If you hate yourself at Westminster Effects, you can also tune into the Westminster Effects Doxology podcast.

Episodes typically dropping on Thursdays.

And with those socials and the email list and all that kind of stuff, it's November, which means we have Black Friday coming around.

So keep an eye out for the Black Friday sale@westminster effects.com.

All right.

Landon wanted to know how to contact me, so I'll put it up here.

Just email, show sfe Bible.

You can contact me that way and that will get, just say, hey, I want to talk to, you know, just want to email Andrew and I will respond.

I'll get, it'll come to me and I'll get it.

All right, so Georgia says amen.

Thank you.

Good discussion.

Have a good night.

God bless.

And so next week, if we do not have Landon on, we'll do the show we planned for this week, which was, was to talk about how do we do apologetics.

Good.

He says, email sent.

Cheers, guys.

I actually kind of like his, his demeanor.

Yeah, I, I, I like his demeanor just from, from the way he's, he's been chatting.

So with that.

Hey, Cody, I know it was kind of last minute.

I read into our group and our signal group and said, hey, anyone want to jump in?

And you were like, yeah, sure.

I like disagreeing with Andrew.

Yeah, exactly.

I normally have church band rehearsal on Thursday nights and I'm off this week and next week.

And it's just like, oh, this is convenient.

I can actually jump on when he asks for people to jump on.

Yeah, well.

And so, so you were, were, you were mentioning.

So you do.

We talked in the very beginning.

You're involved with that, the, the big band.

And now I forgot the name of it that you.

I know I'm pop culture related.

It starts with an S. Skillet.

Skillet.

So what do you, what do you make the pedals for them.

But you were doing something with them, you said, like on a show or something, right?

Oh, yeah.

Like at this point, if they're within a two hour drive of me, I'm gonna go hang out.

And particularly with Seth, because I'm Titus with him.

I talk with him several times a week at this point.

And so me being in the Greenville, South Carolina area, they were in Johnson City, Tennessee, which is an even two hours.

And so I just bumped up there, hung out, talked shop, got some video for the socials and all that good stuff.

And they're, they're, they're fantastic people.

Like, they talk a big theological game.

And what I appreciate about them is they are the exact same people backstage as they are on stage.

Like, they're, they're the real deal.

They're not, they're not BSing anybody.

And, and they've welcomed me in like a part of the family.

So, yeah, huge shout out to Skillet.

Those guys are fantastic.

And they have a new rendition of O Come, O Come Emanuel coming out tomorrow.

So everybody go to Spotify and check that out.

All right.

And we always have to, we try to stay long enough on the show because then the 10 o' clock hour, Aaron's daughter comes in and gives him a kiss good night.

We always like to see that.

Love it.

So.

All right, we will be.

Landon did email me.

I got the.

An email.

So I saw that it already got forwarded over to me.

So look forwarded to that.

And so maybe we'll have a good discussion next week.

I don't know what the topic will be, but go to apologetics live dot com.

I'll try to have it set up by usually Monday night.

And sometimes I'm late.

Like today where I did it today.

I had, I had the notes.

I just didn't set up the show.

So.

But we will probably do that next week.

And remember to strive to make today an eternal day for the glory of God.

And we'll see you next time.

Have a great night.