I bought Bitcoin, I didn't know what I bought. But I was so happy. Finally, I'm going to be rich. Two days later, the bubble bursted. I'm like, what? What just happened? I knew it. It's a scam. And I cursed myself for a few days, but then I thought, I really have to figure this thing out. Otherwise, I'll be scammed again in the same scheme. So that's when I finally took time to research about Bitcoin.

Hey everybody. Welcome to Orange Hatter. I've got a very exciting announcement to make today. The website for the Orange Hatter retreat is up and registration is now open. We're offering a 21% discount for anyone who registers by January 30th, 2024. We did have to move their retreat up by one day. So it will run from March 16th through the 20th. In Merida, Yucatan, Mexico. This is in partnership with project Yucatan. It's going to be an amazing five days of recharge, restoration and deep connections with women Bitcoiners. It will be an absolutely incredible chance to meet like-minded women and form friendships that will last a lifetime. Please go to the website, www.orangehatter.com/yucatan. And I will see you in Mexico. And now onto our very wonderful guest. Enjoy welcome to Orange Hatter. I'm so excited to have you here. I can't wait to dive in.

Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's good to be on the show hosted by our fellow women.

Yes, definitely woman to woman conversation. All right. So I know the audience can see this, but we are very casual here. I am literally sitting with a coat on and a blanket on my legs because I'm in the basement talking to Turiko over a cup of coffee. We want this story to be very relatable to you. So yeah, let's get right to it. Turiko, so tell us a little bit about yourself. Um, Um,

Okay. So, my name is Teruko. Now I'm working for a Bitcoin company for over four or five years already. But before that, well, people see me as a free spirit. I like to be free or like, I like to have, like options. I value flexibility. and then I'm not afraid of changes, like I'm a risk taker, so my life has to like, big turns several times growing up. I was born and raised in Japan, but the typical Japanese, Not like me. So I, I'm usually, I'm the, like, loud one. I'm really spontaneous. I ask questions at school. So, teachers are like, you know, it's so rude to question me, like, at class. And then I, but I can't help it, right? Because I'm so curious. So, yeah, that was, like, me growing up, but my family were very supportive of me being kind of, you weird, funny, like, free and independent personality, so I was quite lucky, and then, so naturally I was interested in the world outside of Japan, so as soon as I entered college I started traveling around the world. So far, I've probably visited more than 70 countries. but I stopped counting after 50 countries, so I don't know exactly. But, I did, yeah, like, backpacking, Europe I did, you really, like, souvenir, like, five star hotel type of traveling, too. But, so my college dates for like those traveling dates, but then you graduate college and you have to start work, right? So my first job was because I love traveling so much. So, I wanted to be in the industry, which I can also travel. So naturally I chose. a travel agency so I can be a tour guide. But that was a big mistake. If you love something, you should keep it as a hobby. Not make it, a work because, you know, work, because you do something you don't want, you suffer, that's why you get compensated. So, the first lesson I learned, I'd say, you know, fresh out in that, work. But, yeah, so I couldn't last long, and then I quit. And then I was so afraid of telling my parents I quit my job after like two weeks. So I'm like, I have to find a new job before I come, you know, clean to my parents. Yeah, I was like, anything, just, you know, job. I need a job. So, then I, like I was like going through a job posting site and blah, blah, blah. This new job, which where it's like the law firm, and it's just a legal assistant. And then there, I was hired as a legal assistant, but I found out that it was back in the late 90s. So, everyone had a PC. Everyone had emails. That office, or maybe law industry overall, wasn't digitalized at all. And then I had to, like, Go to the warehouse and then pick up the files from the pile of files, right? So, I'm like, why do I have to do it? If they have a database, I know exactly where the information they are looking for. So, I'm like, going to the partner and then, complain about my job being inefficient because of this manual work. Right? And then he was like, what can what can I do? I mean, you know, what do you want to do? So I'm like, I wanna build, database, even though I had no experience, right? But, already, Microsoft had a, What's it? Access, which is the software, you can actually build, customize the database, even though you don't have a coding skills. So, yeah, even though I was hired as a legal assistant, I kind of, pivoted myself to this, database project, like it's my personal project. So it was funny. So I still had to work as a legal assistant during the day, but after the work, I could work on my own project and then. At first, they were not going to pay me for my own project because that's, something I just wanted to do. But, so it took me almost like six months to like eight months to complete it. Literally uploaded all the files information, at least the index export to the database. And then I automated the reporting system so we don't have to manually write the monthly or weekly update to our clients. So, even though I spent 6 to 8 months of that, the time saving I got afterward, after we had this big case, was huge. And the partners saw the benefit. So eventually they actually paid me to buy that database from me. So that was very, it was exciting. It was something I did by myself. And then I actually made money. And then the whole process, I actually enjoyed a lot. It was everything was new to me and then I had to, go to a bookstore, look for something I can use. And then also I was born with this, forum asking questions. I want to make this I need this function. How can I get it. And the people were so nice that they just do this, this. Yeah, so that was my, I would say that was my, first encounter with technology. Like software. So, I got really interested into that area of the business. So, I decided to quit the law firm and then went back to school. So I went back for master degree in the U. S. because at that point, I thought, okay, maybe I could do simple coding and programming, but I'm not good at it. So, I wanted to be more like IT consultants, so I went back to, business school to get my MBA. And then, yeah, business school was fun, it was busy, and it was, all that stuff. But, um, after I finished the school, I I didn't stay in the us I came back to Japan and then for so which is kind of IT consumer product company. And then that product I was assigned was, yeah, it was, it, it was like the iPhone without. cell phone. It's like everything you can do, like you can take picture, you can listen to the music, it's just you can't talk. It's not a phone. I lost that. Yeah, it was also fun. I was in like product planning, like marketing, but because it's Sony, it's a big company, everything was so slow. And then whatever you want to do, you have to fill The forms, paperwork was killing me. And then, the person who values flexibility and freedom couldn't take it. So much structure that I have to follow. And I'm like, ah, just kill me. So, I left after two years. And then after that, I was, pretty much on my own. I started my online business. At one point, I was doing personal shopper. And after that, I was full time airbnb host because I love traveling, right? And then I stayed at Airbnbs all over the world. And then I was like why don't I just start Airbnbs? So even though, even when I'm in Japan, I feel like I'm traveling. So, I did that for five years, I think. Yeah, so I was like, really, yeah. I'm like, the post on foods. Get, like, I'm curious, so I always can find something to distract me, like, for a year or two, and then I really dig deep into it. But then, I'm like, okay, I'm done. Something new. I need something new. So, yeah, I was changing the jobs every three, four years. And then I was enjoying that kind of life. That was that was pretty much my pre Bitcoin days.

I find it very fascinating that you are so not the typical Japanese woman that people think of. So I want to dig a little deeper into your childhood because Japan is kind of interesting because you have simultaneously the very rich and very deep traditions of honor and respect and structure. And then you're also at the cutting edge of innovation. when you were growing up and being curious and asking questions when you're not supposed to, I'm really glad to hear that your parents supported you, but what was it like for you as a student in the Japanese school system? With your personality.

With my personality, because, Because I'm, like, super social, If I go somewhere, I usually dominate this, you know, first place. I'm like, you know, yeah, I can do this, I can do that. So, luckily I was also well accepted by friends class too. I was never picked on. I guess I was too strong to be picked on. Yeah, I was always, class president was like that. people usually don't like to be in that role, and then, like, yeah, I'll do it. Kind of. Yeah. So, in a way because I ask questions I'm not supposed to, so teachers are kind of annoyed, but at the same time, because I volunteer to be a class president, so they also value to be kind of, you know, spontaneous and then take actually responsibility.

How was that like when you were going through testing phase of entering higher education

Oh, like, specifically study for college entrance examination and stuff like that. Yeah, that was tough because, you have no flexibility. There is only one answer, right? It's usually multiple choices. So, but I have a good memory, so I could memorize a lot of stuff. so I did okay. Yeah. The tough part is you actually have to, so you have, you can train yourself to do good in that kind of testing, testing, right? So, junior high and high school, I had to go to this cram school, especially tailored for scoring high on that kind of So, that wasn't fun, and then that consumed my you precious free time, so I didn't do that at all. Yeah, but I knew already that that's something I have to go through to be in a place I want to be. So, yeah.

Okay, so you get through the testing phase and now you are at the university and you said that you actually traveled a lot during your university years So

Yeah, so,

programs or were they just vacation kind of trips?

it's vacation type of trip, but, Japanese educational system is different from the U. S., I think. So, up until high school, their whole purpose for students are getting into the university. And once you get into university, Like, unlike, in the U. S., you actually have to work really hard in the university, right, to get the grade or just to graduate. But Japan is not like that. Once you are in, you will be graduating, even though you don't have to do any work. So, in my case, yes, I was I was a student at the university, but I didn't really go to classes. Like, I didn't attend classes. And then professors, uh, also lazy too, so they used, they reused, the same test over and over for many years. So I could just get the test in advance. from, a friend who's already been through the same class. So, yeah, literally, you can graduate without studying in Japan. So, instead of going to classes, I actually started working. It's a part time job, but, I was almost working as a full timer. Like, I was working eight hours a day to save money for traveling. Yeah, so I work and then save up the funds. Then, once I have enough, I just took off, even though school was in. Like, it wasn't. Even summer break or spring break, I just, whenever I had money, then I just took off.

Okay, so The four years that you were in college, you were actually Not doing college work at all. It was in name only. And you literally took

so I was, um, yeah, yeah, so I, I was supposed to study economics, and then I have a bachelor degree in economics, but, yeah, I didn't learn much about economics, but luckily it was Keynesian, so, yeah. Thank God I didn't, learn Keynesians.

That's too funny. Okay. And I guess that's just a general understanding of all Japanese. It's just that you basically complete your education by high school graduation and then the four years of college is the reward that you get.

Yeah, yeah, it's like a moratorium you get before facing the tough reality.

Yeah.

years of vacations. But I think nowadays, it's a bit different. Because my niece actually go to school every day and then start even, have a homework, doing the homework at home. So Maybe they changed.

Well, here's my question then. Do you think that English is The education that you experienced through world traveling was far more valuable than maybe a classroom experience where you, you get the professors lecturing you and you have to write papers.

I don't know because I didn't go that way, right? I couldn't really compare which I didn't experience. But, I would say, I don't know like educational wise, but the traveling definitely influenced me a lot. They made my personality. or, They affected my value and my perspective. Because, you know, born and raised in Japan, it's a clean country, everything works, and the people are so nice. It's very different from the rest of the world, right? So, when you go out, you meet people. who are not that nice, who are trying to scam you. Or like, you go to a country which is not clean, and you don't even want to use bathroom, but people are using bathroom, so I'm like, how can they? Or like, you know, yeah, like, everything. Of course, back then, Japan was having bubble economy. Japan was like number one power in the world. So, like, everywhere I go, I felt like, wow, everything is so cheap, right? So, yeah, those things you wouldn't know unless you actually go out and, see yourself. And then also, because I was doing backpacking and then staying at a youth hostel with total strangers, you get to talk to those people, right? And then people who are almost, like, same age as me. I went through a lot already, one guy was saying, yeah, my father was judge at a screen call, that he was assassinated. I'm like, what? And girls were saying, yeah, my country is so poor, and I'm the first one who went to college. I'm like, what? People don't go to college. You know. Those type of stuff. And then, on the other hand, you will have royal family. Who has maid, who has five cars, and then they have all different work, right? So, it's like, I'm like, wow, the world is so big. I know nothing about it. I was humbled by it. Yeah. Those experiences, I guess.

Okay. So you, you've traveled the world, you've met all these different people and you've seen different things. You return to Japan. Now you're looking at. What you grew up with, with fresh eyes, how did that affect you when you were looking for a job? Because you have mentioned in the previous conversation that the culture was changing right around that time, especially where women were choosing not to start a family and not to be boxed in that role of being a wife and mom. Did that contribute to your viewpoint when you went back to Japan and you started working,

Yes, so, yeah, I think women in late 20s or even 30s, they have, it's difficult, right, because, You have to decide if you want to get married, if you want to have kids, if you want to start a family, where you want to live tough decisions you have to make, and then that decision will actually determine the rest of your life, so you'll be, of course you'll be afraid of making big decisions, right? but now, when I look back, you suffer, because you actually have, Lot of options, but as you get older, your options are it's one by one, it disappears, at a certain age, you cannot have child, so like, less, one less thing to worry about, right? So, but, of course, when you are late twenties or thirties, you don't know that. So, I was yeah, I was going through tough times. Especially around thirty. That's when I graduated from business school, too. The timing was, I could have married and started a family, but then my degree, MBA degree, which be just waste it, but in Japan, it's either or. If you choose career, you pretty much have to give up on marriage and having family. And then if you want to have family, then you have to sacrifice your career. And then I'm like, I just spent two years and there's so much money on my education. I can't just give up. I have to repay, like, I have a huge debt. I have to work. Yeah, and then also, yeah, because I grew up in the culture, I knew, what was would be like if I get married to typical Japanese man, which I wanted to avoid. So, yeah. even my mom, who's been married, happily married for many years, and then, my parents are really good, and then I grew up in a good family, but even she said don't get married. To me, because seeing you, I could actually, support myself financially and then I'm strong enough to be live myself. So she's like, you are not gonna be happy to have that normal, like, typical Japanese wife life. So, yeah, stay away.

I'm just so blown away by how supportive your parents are. that's amazing to not have that burden, because if they had said no, what's wrong with you, why, why won't you do the typical thing? I think that would have been very difficult for you to kind of break out of the mold.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, I'm just lucky, I guess, because I know a lot of my friends who went to, you know, school with, yeah, they definitely have pressure from parents, and then also, you know, peer pressure, too. everybody, my close friends were, like, married young and then starting having kids, Am I really going to be by myself? Am I going to be okay? I questioned myself, but I just couldn't give up my freedom. Freedom is really important to me. But, I mean, eventually, to make someone else happy, then you have to be happy yourself, too, right?

Absolutely.

Yeah, I realized I wouldn't be happy, if I tied in, put into this box, and then I can't even do anything. How can I make, you know, my kids or my husband happy? Like, you know, I don't think I can, so.

Okay. So we've established that you love freedom. I think that's a wonderful segue to get into Bitcoin. You've just quit Sony and now walk us through how you came across Bitcoin.

I mean, My Bitcoin story is actually really typical. you heard of the word Bitcoin like so many years ago, but you couldn't, you didn't care. It's you just dismissed it as, yeah, it's, it's a scam. It's a speculation. So you didn't give any time to look into it. So I started hearing about Bitcoin back in 2013, 2014, cause I've been investing in stocks and real estate from college, right? So I've been watching Bloomberg, CNBC, and then sometimes, when the Bitcoin price went, they would report that, yeah, Bitcoin just broke a hundred dollars. And then I typically remember the first time Bitcoin actually broke a hundred dollars. Yeah, I think that was 2014. So, yeah. But still, I'm like, yeah. I mean, you know, it's tulip bubble. People will go down to zero. So I didn't even pay attention. But, 2017 in bubble, I couldn't just watch the price going up and then making everybody so richj So finally I bought my first Bitcoin in December 2017 without doing research. So even though I bought Bitcoin, I didn't know what I just bought. But I was so happy. Finally, I'm going to be rich. Two days later, the bubble bursted. And then it, you know, the price crashed to a half. I'm like, what? What just I knew it. I knew it. It's a scam. I was, you know, rug pulled, And I was so upset. And I cursed myself. For a few days, but then I thought, okay, I really have to figure this thing out. Otherwise, I'll be, you know, scammed again in the same scheme. So that's when I finally took time to research about Bitcoin. I didn't know where to go. I didn't know what to read or who to listen to. So basically, I just Googled. and then read all the articles in it. And then I was like, yeah, see, it's a scam. You see, it's a scam. But then, I found this blog post and then that made me wonder, Oh, maybe it's not a scam. Maybe it might be. So the blog post was, by BJ Boyapati. It's famous The Bullish Case for Bitcoin. I think many of Bitcoiners think it's a classic. It was written in 2018. It's made into a book now. It's a really good, book. So, he talked about Bitcoin and other money, and he went back to the history of money, and what makes good money, So, yeah, to me, that was the first article which actually gave explanation in in terms of, like, from their economics perspective. Even though I didn't study economics. Okay, but this, this seems really legit. So after that, I still continue on reading. And then a few months later, I, discovered the Bible. It's called the Bitcoin Standard. Which eventually I translated into Japanese. So, yeah, that book was a slap in the face wow, it's the world I've been living, the world I thought I knew, but it's totally different story. So I'm like, wow, I want to think about. So that was when I started, Falling into the rabbit hole. Yeah, visually after that, or like, during that time, like, 2018. You know, my personality, if I find something interesting, then I I have to go all in. So, that time, I would rather read than eat or sleep. So, my mom is like, here we go again. And it was being terrible. Like, she wouldn't eat, she wouldn't sleep, she'd just read. Yeah, so I was doing it for about a year. I just I couldn't stop, I wanted to know everything about Bitcoin. So that was extreme time.

You know what I find fascinating is that when the price fell instead of rushing to sell it you decided to read up on it. Go through that period for me because that's so unusual. Most people will be like, oh my gosh, I made a horrible mistake I better sell it before it goes to zero, but you didn't do that. You went and

Yeah, I mean, it was already, uh, you know, it was already in a half price. I'm like, at this point, it doesn't really matter, right? If I hold on to it, or if it goes to zero, I mean, it's just, you I just made a mistake. I just have to own the mistake. And a lot of people, I think it just, they just don't want to even hear about Bitcoin after going through that experience, right? But I really wanted to make sure that I wouldn't take on the same scam. I wouldn't want to, I wouldn't allow myself if I fell. Falling to the same scam. So I really needed to know how this thing will work.

that's interesting. Did you do that with other cryptocurrencies? Did you experiment with them and did you do the same studies into them that you did with bitcoin?

so yeah, I mean, because two days after I bought Bitcoin, it crashed. So I didn't really have other cryptocurrency at that point. But when I was reading about Bitcoin, of course you come across other cryptocurrencies too, right? And then because I was back then, looking cryptocurrency as, you know, almost like same as stocks, so I was trying to pick the right one, which would outperform others, right? So yeah, I bought several, or like, tons of altcoins. eventually, eventually I realized, oh, there's Bitcoin, it's money. It's good money. And then other cryptocurrencies it's just a startup stuff like equity. So I could differentiate, and then I couldn't care less about those equities. I was more interested in good money and what the good money can do for the society and the whole world. So even though I came for the profit, I just wanted to make money, I stayed because I saw the possibility or the potential of Bitcoin, which can actually change the world for the better. Yeah, because,

It's interesting that you say the other cryptocurrencies are like equity in a startup company. I haven't heard it describe quite that way. So I'm really glad that you use that term because that's what it really is. It's centralized

yeah, it's, they have, well, I mean, they don't call it a company, but they have what they call themselves like foundations. It's the same, right? It's that they, you have the organization which determines the fate of their blockchain or the cryptocurrency. So it's a company. And then those people who are working on are just members working for that company. And then people who holds that crypto is a shareholders, they get to say what they think. But, uh,, it's really up to the company or the management to decide, right? So it's, yeah, it's a startup company.

Yeah, it sounds like it was actually really lucky that you bought Bitcoin and two days later a crash So that's that was actually a huge blessing for you. Okay. So now you're way down the Bitcoin rabbit hole give us an idea of how you then transitioned into working in the Bitcoin space. And then I wanna talk a little bit about the Nostrville Asia that you just came from.

Yeah. So when I was reading about Bitcoin, I had so many questions, right? Because I don't have math or technological background. So I started going to meetups to meet Bitcoiners, to know about Bitcoin, so I can ask questions. And then of course when I go to those Bitcoins, they are all male. And then when I enter the room, they're like, huh, are you lost? This is Bitcoin meetup. Like, are you lost? Like, are you someone plus one? I'm like, no. I'm not plus one. I'm not lost. I'm here for Bitcoin meetup. I'm like, huh. Yeah, so I started going to this meetup and then at one meetup, there were a group of people who are actually working to create a hardware wallet made in Japan, a hardware wallet, and then they had a prototype. So, because I, my background is product planning and marketing in consumer market, right? so I'm like, you, you can't, this is, make this. Like this, or like, not this color, or this button, it's, it's not like this, it has to be this way, or something like that. So I was giving irresponsible opinion about their product. And then they're like, yeah, they are startup and then basically town now they were still working for University, they're professors at Stanford professors. So there are like cryptographers So no nothing of this Are you gonna be okay? Like you don't know anything about business like even though you come out with really good product you have to deliver that product to the market. Otherwise they wouldn't even know this existed. So you need marketing person, you need communication channel, And then they had no clue. So, yeah, I decided to join them. So that was my first Bitcoin job. And I was there for two, three years. Yeah. So that's how I got started in this industry.

That's fascinating. Isn't it so true that the inventor usually is not the best person to bring the product to the marketplace? So you worked for that company for two or three years, did you transition from that point to where you are now or was that there are other steps in between?

No, it was from their startup to the other side of the venture capital.

Mm-Hmm.

Startup life is tough. Like you, yeah, like I really hate it when I have to talk to venture capital, like, you know. I know them saying no, it's part of their job and nothing personal, but still, it's, it's hard.

It hurts

It hurts. And then also the market cycle too, like Bitcoin has a four year cycle, right? And then when I joined them, it was 2018, so the bubble just bursted, so there, it wasn't a good time to, raise money. I mean, it was a good time to build, but, you know, I was, constantly worried about, that, you know, a long way, like, Oh, how much, how many months do we spend, like, how many months do we go like this? Yeah, it was so stressful. Yeah, so, yeah, from there, I, we are joined to VC.

So when you started traveling again, 'cause I know that you're not in Japan right now, but when you started traveling again, was that because of the venture capital work that you're doing? Or is that just a personal interest? Like, I want to continue to see the world kind of thing.

So, now mainly it's for conferences, so it's a part of the job. But, even before, like, when I was working for the startup, I was traveling. Mainly to see, I was really fascinated with the idea of Bitcoin circular economies. So I wanted to visit them and see what they are doing. So I went to El Salvador and Guatemala. Yeah, just out of curiosity, nothing to do with the job.

As we were talking before, there are circular economies popping up all over the place. I've personally talked to a bunch of women who are with their own effort with the local people trying to start circular economies where they are. It's absolutely incredible the amount of work you have to put into convincing the merchants to accept Bitcoin. What have you observed around the world in your work and also out of your personal interest That you can share with us. I mean, it could be just the type of people who are working on it or their differences,

You mean they're, specifically about the circular economy, or?

uh, specifically about the circular economy. Yeah,

I think there are different ways. Like the Bitcoin beach in Elva, El Saba, though it's our bottom up, right? So, but it's a bottom up grassroot movement. But they had a funding, they had an anonymous donor who gave them a lot of Bitcoin so they could start distributing Bitcoin to, people living in the community. So it's, I would say it's not a typical, circular economy. Because nowadays those, you know, other, circular economy popping up around the world are started by Bitcoiners who are so into Bitcoin who want to change the world. So they're actually using their own money. And they are on time to convince, yeah, like you said, educate merchants and then building necessary tools. So those are the grassroots, bottom up approach. But on the other hand, like, Lugano city of Switzerland, where you can actually pay, like you can shop more than 200 stores. with Bitcoin, and you can even pay tax or any city service in Bitcoin. And then, you know, it's very different. It's a top down approach. So they have budget, and then they can hire a company to make like, costs to cater their needs. So, basically Everybody accepts Bitcoin, but because of the way force is configured, the merchant have a choice. Or they can choose how much Bitcoin they want to keep once they keep, once they get Bitcoin. So some might want to just keep 5%. Some might want to keep up, some might want to keep all in Bitcoin. But in reality, everybody chose to convert Switzerland as soon as they get Bitcoin. So no merchant wants to hold on to Bitcoin. Yeah, so that's the reality. So yeah, different, different types of circular economies. I don't know which one would be good. Top down seems very efficient. If you just want to count the stores, which accept the Bitcoin, but you know, if you dig in, those people are not really holding on to Bitcoin. So, I don't know, like tax wise, it's probably bottom up will be eventually, more.

well, that's really helpful. I didn't know there were these different structures. Let's jump quickly to your recent experience, Nostr Asia, and it took place in Japan. So very exciting. Tell us a little bit about what that was like.

So Nostr Asia is a conference about Nostr. Nostr is not part of Bitcoin, but Bitcoiners are very like, excited about because bitcoin is a freedom money, but uh, it's also freedom of speech. Like other social networks service like Twitter or Facebook or Instagram. There are certain things you shouldn't say otherwise you account will be frozen, but Nostr because it's not really decentralized. It's like you have many servers where you can store your data, so. If this one server decided to ban you, there are so many others you can go to, so you would never lose your profile, right? So, that kind of freedom of speech would appeal to Bitcoiners. So, probably, if you see, overall, it's probably 90 percent people Who are on Nostr are somewhat related to Bitcoin, if they're are Bitcoiners. But in Japan it's different. Japanese Bitcoiners still hang out in Twitter or X and not many people are on Nostr. So those are Nostr, those are the people who just like new stuff, so they found out, oh, there is this new SMS we have. Many of them are developers, and then they found out it's so easy to build an app on Nostr it's so flexible, so they enjoy that experience, right? So, Nostr Asia, even me, who actually spoke Nostr Asia, didn't really Use Nostr. Like, I had an account for a year already. I'm not active. So I don't know much about Nostar, to be honest. So there are I would say, oh, We probably had close to 700 people coming to conference over in total. And it was four days long. And then probably 60, 70 percent of people are visiting Bitcoiners. And then 3 to 40 percent local Japanese Nostar users, plus a bit of Bitcoiners. So, the talks are very different from what you'd hear at Bitcoin conferences. Even though people who are speaking are the same. So, they are Bitcoiners, but they also are excited about Nostar. So, on the stage, they try to focus on Nostar, but they didn't talk much about Bitcoin. Which was, I think, which was good, because those Japanese Bitcoiners, no, Nostar users, Not necessarily Bitcoin, France. Actually some of them hate Bitcoin. when they found out Zap which is the tipping service on Northstar is using Bitcoin technology, they were so disappointed. And then they wanted to make alternative version of tipping function, not using Bitcoin. So they hate Bitcoin that much. So it was, for me, it was interesting, but I'm like, you know, there are so many Bitcoiners and then you can't avoid talking about Bitcoin. It's a freedom pet. And then those people who actually like Nostar because it's free, then they should be interested in Bitcoin if they know what Bitcoin is really about. So I tried to orange pill Japanese Nostar users during Nostar Asia, but it didn't go well. Like I couldn't, I couldn't orange pill anyone.

why do they hate Bitcoin so much?

Because so Japan used to be like Tokyo used to be the center of Bitcoin scene back being like until like 2017 You know, was there. CJ the C the founder of Binance lived in Tokyo and Roger Burwell. So in Tokyo. The world's first Bitcoin meetup was created in Tokyo. Everybody was in in Tokyo. So it was big. And then, a lot of people bought Bitcoin around the same time as me. So like 2017 bubble. And a lot of people lost money, you know, after bubble bursted. So they had some negative feelings about Bitcoin through that experience. Or, people who didn't even buy Bitcoin heard about so many bad things about Bitcoin. Like, when Mt. Gox filed bankruptcy, I still remember seeing on national television network, saying that the CEO of Bitcoin company was arrested. It was just one, I mean huge, but one exchange. But people couldn't differentiate between Mt Gox and then Bitcoin as an open source network. So, yeah, I guess that image was embedded back then and is still lingering aroundin their head. They couldn't shut off. So still when I talk to Japanese friends or family members, I wouldn't say I work in Bitcoin because then I have to start explaining. So I would just say, yeah, I'm in tech. I'm in fintech.

Even though we had that bubble burst eventually the price came back up but I guess by that time they weren't really paying too much attention because they were traumatized so

much? Yes. So the last one 20, was it 2021? Yeah, the price, they reached new all time high, right? But not many people paid attention. I'm assuming because they already dismissed Bitcoin as a scam. Or some people who secretly wanted to have a Bitcoin so they could enjoy the price bump, but they didn't, so they were kind of bitter about it, too. Yeah, I don't know which, but I still, yeah, and then even like recently, Bitcoin price is going up, right? It's not making new all time high, but it's close enough, especially when you look at the chart in Japanese yen which has depreciated massively in the last few years. So, it's so close, but still not many people are talking about it.

you also mentioned that in Nostra Asia the Developers really love the zapping capability of tipping each other they didn't know what SATs were And then they found out that it was operating on a Bitcoin base. Instead of looking to Bitcoin and why it's the base that's on Nostr they created their own version

they tried to, I don't know if they succeeded, but yeah, they talked about how we can go without using Bitcoin network, hello. Yeah, and then even some of them, I personally talked during Nostr Asia, said, so now they are okay using Lightning Network. So there are, it tends to be like researching how Lightning Networks work and which is fine. And then, some of them are even running Lightning Node. So when they say, yeah, I run Lightning Node. I'm like, then you are also running Bitcoin Node. But they don't want to do it. I mean, they don't want to say it. And then I wouldn't. This isn't there to say, but, yeah, I don't know why, but they said, yeah, Lightning Network is cool, but I just don't care about money. Like, money, it's good or not. So, I'm not interested in learning about Bitcoin.

So would you say that the Bitcoin movement in Japan is not very robust or is it just isolated incidents with these developers?

No, no, that's the overall impression. Uh, I have a dedicated website, which is just a collection of Japanese Bitcoin educational materials, but, uh, yeah, it's, care about Bitcoin, because, I mean, you can probably relate, S. is probably the same, you about Bitcoin, but, yeah, it's there, but it doesn't get a lot of traffic. People just don't care about Bitcoin, because, I mean, you can probably relate, the U. S. is probably same, you everything works, people have credit card, people have bank account, they have their own payment network, and then they get points for discount. I mean, they don't need Bitcoin, which is actually a blessing. So, I mean, if they don't need it, good for you, you are the lucky ones.

Yeah. I just had the same conversation with my son yesterday at the dinner table and I could see as I was talking, his eyes rolling because he's just not in that stage of life where it's important yet, he's relatively young And so yeah, all we can do is make the material available and hope that one day they will find their own way there.

That's also a good thing about Bitcoin, right? It's just there as an option. I mean, either opt in or opt out, it's entirely up to that person. That's freedom. That's flexibility. It's just an option.

Scott and I talked a lot about that. All we can do is share the knowledge we have so that people can make informed choices because right now I feel like they're making choices But they don't have the whole picture. Like what you were saying when you started reading the Bitcoin Standard you realize that everything you knew wasn't true. Everything you grew up believing wasn't true. So Yeah, that's my only goal is just to give people the full picture.

Yeah, but I also have to warn people who are gonna be into Bitcoin that once you see the world through Bitcoin lens, you can't unseen, your perspective it has changed 180 degrees. If you wish, you can't go back to the way you were before. So, you might lose some friends, you'll be in different situations, so. Yeah, because sometimes I'm like, like, can I just go back to happy fiat life. It was so much easier. But you can't unsee. So yeah,

Well, that's exactly why. Yeah, that's exactly why I've created that retreat, because we do see things so differently. And it's frustrating that the rest of the world doesn't see what we see, and that can be really draining. You know, that could be really fatiguing. Okay, so to wrap up, what would you say to a woman who's still sitting on the fence about Bitcoin?

I actually don't have the advice because that's the question I've been always asking myself, how can I get more women to Bitcoin? How can I get more women to my bitcoin meetup then I actually don't have an answer, so I don't know what's stopping them. I've been hosting a Bitcoin meetup in Tokyo for five years, and usually I'm the only woman there. And then people don't realize I'm a woman because it's just all guys, and you kind of have to blend in too, right? I mean, I'm not trying to be, but I guess I'm, by now, I'm like one of them, like I'm like a dude. So, I don't know what's blocking women's minds. I don't know what's their role. One thing, yeah, like you said, women are busy, right? with so much to do. They don't have, enough time for themselves. So Why they should spend that time on Bitcoin studying Bitcoin and I I can't like I can't shove orange pill into their mouths right they have to realize they have a problem. Once they know they have a problem then they will start looking for solutions and they might stumble on to Bitcoin. But if they are living in a perfect world I don't think those people will never discover Bitcoin. Yeah, so I don't know. I don't have the answer. I don't have a good advice.

so true that until they have a problem they need to solve,

yeah.

and it's fine. one idea I have is like the home parties for selling stuff So they have it for jewelry. They have it for recipe books They have it for Tupperware and Bible study and things and I think there's something to the intimacy of somebody's home that is just different from a Bitcoin meetup per se so That's sort of the way that I'm trying to figure out how to get more women to just invite two or three friends to their home and open up. And then instead of saying, let me tell you about Bitcoin, because then the people won't show up. Maybe we say something like come over and we'll play games. Because people still do that. They get together, they play games. That hopefully then opens up the conversation because we kind of have to do it in a roundabout way if we just go in guns blazing like do you know what is wrong with the fiat system? They're gonna be like, oh You're gonna try to preach to me

conspiracy theorist.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah I mean I've been thinking a lot about it because I do see in America too that most women are just going about their daily lives, either they don't need it or they're so busy trying to survive they don't have time to stop and think of other alternatives.

Right, right. That's true too. Yeah, I think the people we want to reach who need Bitcoin actually don't have time. It's just, they're so busy. So I'm actually starting a podcast next month. And

Are you? Good for you. Tell me

I mean, yeah, yeah, I mean, it's gonna be in Japanese, and then It's gonna be the hidden agenda. Of course, Bitcoin, but I'm not gonna talk about Bitcoin. the title doesn't include Bitcoin. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's about, it's about money. Like people love money, so it's about money.

Good for you. Yeah.

Yeah. So this podcast is actually based on that We use, do you know the my first Bitcoin, the El Salvador yeah. So, yeah, we eventually gonna translate that textbook into Japanese, but it's such a big book. It's gonna take time. So, in the meantime, we gonna start this podcast. It's gonna be just 15 minutes. Once a week, we're going to update once a week. So it's not overwhelming at all. And we just go through the textbook bit by bit. It's basically me and then other guys. So the other guy is like a newbie. He just started Bitcoin. So he asks me questions and then I answer, kind of thing. And then we try not to use the word Bitcoin

we

Let's see,

all different ways. Yeah.

Yeah, you don't just have to hide our intention

Yeah, actually, I was talking to I know I was talking to Rachel Geyer in Germany and she was saying how if we were to have a wellness retreat, and we don't say Bitcoin retreat, we just say wellness retreat, women would flock to it because everybody's about wellness. And then once they arrive, then you say, well, there's different kinds of wellness. You have your health wellness, you have your emotional wellness, and oh, by the way, you have your financial wellness. Let's talk about Bitcoin. But of course we want to cover all the other areas. So in that way you can attract newbies in and have a way to connect the ideas together. So I go, that's very sneaky, but I think it might work. You know,

Yeah, but I think we have to be sneaky.

we have to be sneaky. I know. I just think that women have a lot of power to influence through the home, like through the living room, I always keep going back to the living room. So I just feel like we have a lot of power and we're just starting to collectively work together because the men have been working together for over a decade. And so I feel like their network is really strong, but the women are literally just starting to step forward. So as much as I can, I want to try to get us together face to face and not necessarily to talk about what's going on in technology or even politically, but just how do we communicate to other women in the way that only women can to spread the idea? And when, if you listen to some of the men talk, they would say, if things get bad, we're just going to leave, I'm going to pick up my family. We're going to leave. Well, that's great for you, but what about the rest of us? We can't just pick up and leave. You know, my kids aren't going to come with us. I have to stay here. We got to fight the battle here and the only way that I know how is to get women to work the women's network. Do you know, I don't know if you guys have this in Japan, but there's a organization called mad, M A D D and it's mothers against drunk driving. It's a coordination started by a mom of somebody who was killed by a drunk driver and it's a bottom up grassroots kind of movement against drunk driving. Mops is another one. Mothers of preschoolers. That's a very, very strong network and and there're mops organizations everywhere. you can't go to a city in the US and not be able to find several mops groups. So kind of like that. If we can do something through the home like that for money education, maybe not even Bitcoin education, but just money education

money in general,

Yeah, then then we have a chance to spread the wildfire, you know, that's my

Yeah. uh, yeah, I think, in general, especially in the last few years, uh, Um, you know, like last year, this year, people are suffering from inflation and then many people are wondering why you suffer, right? We are working at the same amount of time and we are getting even we are getting raise, but somehow your life is much more difficult that you can't even keep up with bills. So people are starting to question why. People just haven't found what's causing that yeah, so I guess now, the timing wise, it's, it's good.

Thanks for joining us today If the discussion with our guests resonated with you and you would like to dive deeper into the world of Bitcoin, don't miss out on joining the Orange Hatter Women's Reading Club. The meetup link is in the show notes. Also, if there are women in your life whom you think would both enjoy and benefit from learning more about Bitcoin, please share Orange Hatter with them. Until next time, bye!