Speaker: 00:00:02

Hi, I'm Leila Ainge, psychologist and researcher.

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Welcome back to Psychologically Speaking, a podcast all about human behaviour, bringing

together fascinating research insights and real life experiences.

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This season, we're exploring goals with our guests and we'll be following them into the

new year to see how their beliefs, behaviour and actions shape those intentions.

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I'm very pleased to welcome my next guest, Duncan Catteral-Mason.

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He's a director and producer specialising in animation and visual effects.

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He's worked across a range of industries.

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This includes Cadbury, Starbucks and Bugatti.

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He's got a cult following for his work on alternative music videos as a director.

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We talk about his goal to bring his ability to create worlds through animation, visual

effects and storytelling to clients for their concert and

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event visuals.

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tell me a little bit about who you are and when you first went into freelancing,

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So I'm Duncan Catterall- Mason.

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I have been freelance for quite a lot of my career.

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So I've been working in filmmaking and animation for about 16 years now.

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I graduated into the 2008 financial crash.

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So I'd kind

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of done stop motion animation as a kid, started working on short films in my teens and

made my first full length movie at 19.

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It was a weird environment to graduate into I ended up sort doing multiple jobs and that

allowed me to kind of build up film equipment.

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I didn't go immediately into animation despite doing it.

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all the way up to that point.

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over time I started doing more animation type work for people.

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so I kind of entered a film studio in about 2011 having been making music videos and stuff

like that they liked what I did that brought me around to working on more commercial

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things and the digital world was emerging at that point.

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um So I ended up coming to Birmingham to work for an automotive director, guy called Al

Clark who does some of the fastest moving commercials in the car sense.

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I was doing drone and visual effects work,

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but I was then also simultaneously working on freelance animation projects and motion

design projects for the likes of Cadbury and Starbucks Some of that works quite heavily

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under NDA, but one project that is public, quite proud of I did the 2018

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centenary World War One centenary for Cadbury and that was massive so I think that was

seen by about three million people ah

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I was also doing visual effects at the same time for the Bugatti stuff, was, you know, the

zero, 300, zero film, I think is on about 16 million views at this point.

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I've been around block, I can physically film.

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I So while I'm now mainly

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working in 3D, those methods of filmmaking are now being utilized in a way that, because

the tool is getting so good in terms of replicating realism, you then can introduce things

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that you normally only use, you know, the lighting techniques you can use in the real

world now apply, and so the transition over to that medium, and that's one of my strong

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suits is being able to light something well.

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and getting things into that digital world.

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You can then, you can do things that maybe aren't safe or physically impossible by

bringing things into that world.

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I've been doing stuff in the last year with lot of digital doubles.

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So in my last workplace, I needed to be able to take the CEO and put him into the matrix

and do the bullet time scene for their AGM.

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um So the ability to.

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Yeah, the ability to just sort of take someone and put them in a scenario like that.

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I decided to go down that route rather than kind of filming it because filming it, you

would have have gun permits and stuff I'll just have to do one of the things that's

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considered one of the hardest things to do, recreate a human face

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that was extremely recognisable within that company so that was a real milestone this

year.

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getting people to understand why you're doing these things when quite technically out

there

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It's not just using tech for tech's sake.

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It's about using this stuff to create the worlds you want to create.

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the project I'm working on right now, I can say that it's not human characters.

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So there's some objects in it that wouldn't normally be kind of walking around.

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I was catching as you were talking there, it sounds like you get feedback around how well

your work's landed.

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Yeah, I think it's easy to sort of highlight the things that I've done particularly well.

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some of the stuff that I'm proudest of hasn't necessarily found a huge audience.

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and or has not necessarily been released publicly.

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So I've done the stuff.

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I've done a lot of stuff for different companies, AGMs and things like that, where they're

talking about details that they can't we can't really put that thing online.

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I've done stuff well, I've really put in the effort, but people haven't released it in the

right way, so it hasn't done well.

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It can really vary, it doesn't stop you from being proud of the project or proud of the

people that you've worked with on those projects.

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massive,

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So you've described yourself predominantly to me as freelancing.

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Yeah, I went back to freelancing recently for a dream project.

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I've been freelancer for 16 years, what I've done has varied quite a lot.

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I was always directing projects and editing projects and stuff like that.

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And I've moved over to the animation space I'll sometimes work within another production

company or I'll set up my own small team for a project.

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Talk me through your thought process.

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and just a little bit about what kind of goal you're looking at.

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I think it gives me a heavy level of accountability by coming on here.

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gonna do it.

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And actually, you I've usually got any number of different crazy R &D projects on the run.

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But to focus in on a goal that's really for the business.

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The.

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With the mini budget thing, when that really affected sort of the economy for a lot of

freelancers especially in the creative sector.

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So I jumped for a bit into a company

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and I built them a studio and was making films for them and one of things I was doing for

them for like the last three years was their AGM that was always big screen content I'd

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done stuff for sort of big event launches that had had cinema adverts and I'd done things

for

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at a bugatti show on sports.

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done stuff for, I think I turned, I to say it was the CEO of Rightmove.

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Always doing weird things to CEOs.

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I think I turned the CEO of Rightmove into a cyborg at one point.

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And this is back in the day.

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But the...

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the last company I was working at, Teacher Active, a recruitment agency they had these

increasingly ridiculous AGMs.

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Ridiculous in a good way, doing those kinds of animations, that kind of level of work is

something I kind of want to turn into a service.

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But the fundamental problem I have is that all of these

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I've done so far have been under wraps.

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There's not stuff I can really share So to pitch that service into other people and go, I

can do your event and concert visuals.

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when people need something high level for that, I can make all the animations, all of the

intro sequences, all the visuals.

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I was even doing artwork, a lot of hand-drawn, well I say hand-drawn, digital artwork, by

hand.

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I'm sat in front of a big Wacom screen right now.

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And I didn't have the confidence to do that many years ago.

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And then when I was working for them, I'd sort of done stuff for music clients and stuff

like that, slowly feathered in the fact that I could do my own art.

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and then I really got into it in a heavy duty way with those things and they were always

themed.

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So I think the first year we did musicals, the following year we did I

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And so doing those different themes then kind of give you the creative constraints to do

things in a particular style in a particular way.

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I think now I'm back to freelancing.

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I kind of I want to do that sort of stuff as a service for people.

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And we're also making.

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I'd also be making films for those as well, where there were particular projects and

things they wanted to highlight.

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So they had a really great diversity initiative there.

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And so we did a film for that, you know.

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So those are all kinds of things that I think I can kind of package up and do for people.

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It's a fairly premium service because to do it the way I want to do it, I want to try and

get a team of people around it.

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it did take me

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many many months to do each one of these things but I think having the ability to kind of

outsource and bring in a few other people for key components of it because if someone

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wants to do it in particular style or wants to do certain things I can then bring all of

that together and bring all the right people together and having you know worked with many

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many talented artists and animators as much as I can do quite a lot of stuff myself being

able to kind of bring in really good people and talented people to project is the best

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to do it in a more deliberate way.

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That's my own productions is what I want to do.

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So that's the big goal is how I launch that.

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what I've got at the moment is the outline for essentially a trailer for it.

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it's going to be an entertaining trailer.

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So it's taking death by PowerPoint to a bit of an extreme and using animation to highlight

a service that uses animation.

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different characters and things like that.

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at the start you've had an audience that's been killed off by a dull presentation and then

you've got different crowds of people then enjoying...

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different visuals you're then displaying to use as an example but you know having recently

done a bit of crowd simulation I thought well okay I'll use that's the big goal at the

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moment is to launch that service.

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this is gonna sound weird to say out loud one of my plans for doing freelancing this time

around is to work for fewer people I work far better kind of working for a distinct set of

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people rather than just doing high being able to have some real client care around

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making their projects a success and giving it the time that it needs is more important to

me than working on lots and lots of little tiny bits and pieces.

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this would be the service to kind of get going alongside, obviously I go and freelance for

other studios and things like that.

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And even with that, I've got new ways of working that I need to then demonstrate because a

lot of the stuff that I've been doing lately hasn't got an example that's public.

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and that's been a real constraint to my animation side of things.

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Most people assume that I'm just a music video director and stuff if they go and look

online because those are the bits that are public.

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So what you're describing there is taking your freelance business into a premium offering,

almost like a boutique agency that works with hand-picked clients for...

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longer periods of time, months, so you'd be with a client for a quarter of a year if you

like, What are the challenges of transitioning from where you are now into that model?

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Yeah, So firstly is just demonstrating the fact that I do this stuff and can do it to such

a level and those initial kind of materials and trailers and things like that need to

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be...

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super premium quality as well so having something that would normally take months to make

and then also then demonstrating that it's going to take some time to then create

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something that is that good.

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So that's challenge number one.

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Challenge number two is then just the kind of networking aspect of it so there's a few

people that I know.

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that I probably get in touch with and say, hey, look, I'm doing this now.

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I've mentioned it to a few people.

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There's at least two companies I know that are aware that I'm thinking of doing it,

including the companies to work for.

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It depends if they'll help me back.

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We left on good terms.

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We left on good terms.

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I think it's looking at people who are working, particularly in events.

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I've done stuff in the kind of music sector for such a long time, So it's all kind of case

of, it's a bit of a networking challenge.

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Yeah, okay.

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biggest problem with networking is that I'm so hyper-focused on the project I'm working on

at any given time that I forget to network.

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Or I don't...

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People don't necessarily know what I'm doing or working on.

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And sometimes I can't say what I'm working on.

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So that's a really big challenge, getting people to know that I'm doing this stuff.

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and meeting all the right people and also having small kids at home as well.

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I can't just nip out in the evening and go to some kind of drinks thing.

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I am going to an animation event in Birmingham on the 26th, but I'm having to use my

birthday as an excuse to get out of the house and get my mum to look after the kids while

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my wife head out.

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And I'm not super confident in person and social situations.

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I find it really hard.

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yeah, so I find that stuff really hard.

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So getting over that and getting past that, yeah, can be a challenge.

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that's really interesting.

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you're really talking about this idea of needing social proof.

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That's the kind of psychology marketing arena you're talking about, I need social proof

and how do I give social proof when a lot of my stuff is under NDA and also part of your

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premium brand presumably will be that respectfulness of people's IP and all of that.

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Yeah, exactly.

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Yeah, yeah.

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If I say is there an opportunity there though, from what you've told me you are clearly

sought after and have been in demand and you have done good quality work so therefore

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people presumably talk well about you.

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I don't think I've been credited correctly in a few areas and that hasn't necessarily

passed on.

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think there's a, I have seen that sometimes you're seen as someone's sort of secret

weapon.

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ah that's been the thing that's held me back most is some of the secrecy around work that

I've done

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I remember one occasion where I was headhunted by someone, but it had them a couple of

years to work out who had done this particular project because of the crediting on it and

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all the lack of crediting.

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especially when you're doing stuff in the digital space, there's not a credit sequence at

the end of that stuff.

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some of the producers I know will.

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will help me get some gigs in a few places, not what everyone does.

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So that's something that this time around I need to be really mindful of.

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I think I was just kind of happy to take the money in the past, but now I think I'm having

to have a bit of a pricing structure on that stuff because it actually costs me to make

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more of these projects because I've got to take my own time to put my own personal

projects out and...

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in the past I didn't do enough personal animations But it meant that if that project then

couldn't be released in the way that would credit me, then that's been a problem.

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So yeah, that's been a big challenge.

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Is there an opportunity with your uh new business model, let's call it new business model,

is an opportunity with that and with the contracts to get some support and advice on how

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you can get the best of both worlds when it comes to being credited and credited

appropriately so that you can market yourself and you can say what you've done.

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Yeah, I mean, think contractually what I'm doing now is there's no discounts if it's under

wraps.

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With this service in particular, I guess I don't mind that it's not gonna go out, but

actually what I'm doing is I'm in the fact that, okay, that's then gonna need to pay for

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me to do a couple of weeks here on some of my own projects that go out there.

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I've recognised that I need to do those things.

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I'm now working on a bunch of personal projects, there'll be quite good flagships of some

of this other stuff.

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I'm gonna probably launch a kind of animated band of my own.

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to highlight a few different things that musicians could be doing and services that I do.

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Because until people can see what this thing looks like, it's hard to really kind of get a

grasp of it.

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And then there's just films I've wanted to make for some years that...

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Actually I've got a very good business reason to be doing those things rather than just

going, oh I'd like to do that someday,

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you've talked about, I mean, you've worked in some really kind of niche areas.

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So automotive is one of those areas.

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And obviously you've done stuff with Cadbury and et cetera.

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When we're talking about this premium service, is there an ideal sector client or is it an

ideal money spent on or kind of, are you going after premium brands?

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There's a certain level of budget you'd probably have to have as a minimum.

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In terms of...

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There's not specific sectors.

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I don't think I've ever been...

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tied too strongly to a particular sector.

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the funny thing about me working in automotive is I'm not a petrol head.

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uh I don't know if it helped me or not, but time I'm sort of, and then like when I filmed

celebrities in the past and I'm completely clueless about who anyone is, it can make me

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more objective

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Yeah.

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I just wish the music industry was doing a lot better than it is now because I love

working in that sector but it's not as well funded as it could be.

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I think with this service it's still about trying to do creative things for people but

it's also trying to have the same sort of emotional impact that they want to get out of

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their thing because at the end of the day you want people to

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remember this stuff um and I think with some of AGMs that I was doing that was about

making their staff feel valued um so that's kind of the angle on that.

207

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There has to be a certain level of budget but I don't think I'm tying myself to a

particular sector.

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The information I should be getting off

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the client should give all the messages they want to put out there.

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to be an expert in their sector unless there's something that I would create that would

then cause a problem.

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there's obviously certain ways, looking back at the automotive stuff, there's certain ways

in which you need to try and show a car or not show a car.

212

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And that'll be the case for other products and things like that.

213

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But there's sort of a general level of skill and ability that should work across most

things.

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My line of inquiry here is more around you have highlighted that,

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Networking is not something you get up raring to go to do each day like a lot of people I

would imagine and when you land at the networking event small talk is obviously going to

216

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be the kind of thing that's going to cognitively take some time to to prepare for so my

line of inquiry here is if you know what types of people or what your focus is

217

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then that makes that networking easier, doesn't it?

218

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Yeah, I think because it's going to be events and concerts that does kind of narrow it

down to the types of people that you'd be contacting.

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I'd probably look at large corporates or medium sized to large corporates that um have got

facility and events managers.

220

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So if they're putting on big events, do they have someone that does those visuals for

them?

221

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have they considered doing them in the way that I do them?

222

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those are the types of people that I'm going to be looking at.

223

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So facilities and events managers on the corporate side of things.

224

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I'd have concert visuals in the mix as well, um that then goes back to more of my

traditional market with the music side of things.

225

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Mm.

226

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you do generally try and work with the artists there directly if you can help it you can

reach out to labels and tour managers and things like that to see if there's something

227

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they've got in place.

228

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premium service, working with fewer clients, developing your own showreel,

229

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so that you can give that social proof getting yourselves in front of the right people at

networking events so that you can talk about the things that you do and show your

230

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portfolio around.

231

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When does this service launch?

232

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I've been telling myself January to launch I need to launch some version of it by January

really so I'm

233

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financially I need to as a business so I'm good to the end of the year with the project

I'm working on but I kind of need to start taking on some of those other things

234

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essentially my plan B in the new year

235

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is to work for some of the other studios that's kind of a placeholder for this plan.

236

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So that gets me back to kind of working on small stuff.

237

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it'll be a couple of weeks here and there for different studios and you're bouncing

between a lot of different clients, a of different projects.

238

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Whereas to do these, well, you know, it's a couple of months.

239

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So.

240

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I'm going to do some other freelancing in between,

241

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So 16, 17 years in the industry Duncan, you're very tuned to the lead in time it takes to

get work with some of the studios that you've been used to working with.

242

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it's interesting to think about the lead time.

243

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it's usually been quite a short turnaround because if they need a freelancer, there's a

project that's about to happen.

244

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245

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I have known bigger projects to sort be aware of them maybe three months ahead, four

months ahead.

246

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that's usually clients I've already worked for.

247

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I've always had a split between doing my own projects and doing stuff for other studios.

248

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the lead time can be longer for working for what I call direct clients.

249

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um they need to scope things out.

250

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Maybe they've put it into a budget somewhere and then whether or not that budget gets

approved.

251

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it can take a couple of months with that, if not sometimes even half a year for a direct

client.

252

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where I'm heading with this is that, you know, that transition for once you launch, you've

got two lead times that you're managing in your business.

253

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You've got short term lead times or shorter term with other people do work for their

clients.

254

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And then you've got your longer term lead time.

255

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you've got some experience of both which is really good The other thing that I'm just

going to kind of talk about is the

256

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resources that you've got available to you.

257

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So we would say that you already have a list of previous clients, right?

258

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if you ever had a strategy around how and when you contact previous clients and what they

know you're up to, mean, how they know what you're doing this year or what you've been up

259

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to or what you can say you've been up to,

260

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I've obviously got back in touch with a few different previous clients.

261

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the main client I'm working with at the moment, was a previous client that reached out.

262

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I do tend to contact people.

263

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I think at the moment I'm in a bit of a funny place with that because I know that I need

to...

264

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send an updated showreel to a few people, I'm waiting for this project I'm working on

right now to be out, I think people have seen a lot more of my motion design work in the

265

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animation but this takes me even deeper into the kind of world of character animation.

266

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So, once that's...

267

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out that restarts conversations with a few people I've worked with there's an amazing

animation company I worked with and I want to show them what I'm up to at the moment I

268

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can't

269

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Hahaha!

270

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I want to be able to kind of do animations for some of the best people.

271

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yeah, that's quite a challenge.

272

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so you're excited to show this client, where you're at at the moment.

273

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Will you be able to share that piece of work with them in the long term

274

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it will be and that's one of things that makes it a dream project is it will be and people

will be able to see it and I will be able to talk about it.

275

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So in terms of a launch date, of you being able to talk about a very significant showreel

piece of work that you can talk about and perhaps thinking broader than just the one

276

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client, thinking who else would I let know about that and having your own strategy around

how you're going to share that wherever you kind of show up.

277

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And that's another question, isn't it?

278

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Because every industry is different.

279

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for your industry then, what is, where is the place to be seen?

280

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Is it physically in networking events?

281

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Is it online?

282

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Is it word of mouth?

283

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I used to find the best networking used to be filming.

284

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when you shoot with different freelancers, you ended up picking up a lot of contacts and

recommendations that way.

285

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And I think some of the main clients that I ended up getting were through, you know, being

on set,

286

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that's been really good for word of mouth.

287

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But also working alongside those people at times, you're able to then recommend them for

things and get them onto projects and stuff like that.

288

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but now I'm not really filming.

289

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it's just impossible for me to go and drive down the motorway and do some of the things I

used to do with small children at home.

290

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yeah, networking's hard.

291

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That's why I'm probably turning to the, and this is going to kind of your point with the

research, I'm probably now turning to more of the online networks.

292

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Obviously getting on podcasts is also a to try and meet people and see things.

293

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I've ended up making contacts because I like listening to that podcast and I go and follow

those people and and pester them about how they've done something or,

294

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Obviously we're both on the Doing It For The Kids network, so that's early days on being

on that network, but that's good from a kind of...

295

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emotional support perspective.

296

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I don't know whether it's necessarily a source of clients for me particularly, It's

definitely gonna be a source of people that I would bring onto a project.

297

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it's a lovely community to be part of and I think that's one of the things as well when

you're a freelancer and you might work from home quite a lot.

298

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can be quite isolating so to be part of a network it now feels more like there's a few

peers and colleagues in a way that don't feel like I necessarily had before in the sense

299

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of you know if I've just gone and shot a music video

300

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think it's quite curious how the networks work because I think for some people it is

about, you know, being seen, people knowing you for your specialism and then going, that

301

00:25:46,883 --> 00:25:50,227

person can fill that need for my business and they're in the community.

302

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there was somebody in one of the communities who was working for a big brand and they got

in touch with me to say, can I put your name forward?

303

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Because I think they're working on something.

304

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They've been trying to get a researcher to do this and they can't find somebody.

305

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those kinds of networks we call them, psychologically we call them loose ties, but this

idea that these loose ties they really do make a difference.

306

00:26:13,383 --> 00:26:16,335

to bring this back into more of a focus is...

307

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This idea that, you know, being clear on who your client is and where you're going to find

your client isn't necessarily you getting straight in front of the client, but then some

308

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of those connectors.

309

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So you talked about facilities and events managers, but I wonder also if PR people are the

types of people who might be pitching ideas and building up your network with some PR

310

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people who you know work on these kind of big campaigns

311

00:26:40,549 --> 00:26:44,787

having some time to sit and think about a strategy around that would be helpful.

312

00:26:44,964 --> 00:26:56,639

behind all of that is then looking at your almost your roadmap for your first 12 months of

launch which is to say I launch at the point at which I can give social proof potentially

313

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using the point at which you can talk about your latest pieces your big show real moments

and then thinking what does the next 12 months look like

314

00:27:03,945 --> 00:27:09,851

giving yourself a really achievable place to be in terms of landing your first bigger

client.

315

00:27:09,851 --> 00:27:15,194

And we've talked about probably taking up to three or four months to land that first

client.

316

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So your first 12 months would look like maybe one client and then after that maybe two and

building up that way.

317

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I think...

318

00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:28,784

I would urge you to think about how that balance is going to...

319

00:27:28,784 --> 00:27:40,854

You're going to start with more freelancing gigs and ramp down and then ramp up, or you

play a gamble and say, won't do any smaller pieces because I'm going to hold my space for

320

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the bigger things.

321

00:27:41,586 --> 00:27:44,330

there's some exploration there, isn't there?

322

00:27:44,330 --> 00:27:56,330

I think it's probably going be the former where I'm probably going be working more as a

freelancer rather other people for a bit and then then try and gradually block in these

323

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projects.

324

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I think there's going to be some research I need to do around when a lot of people have

their AGMs and things.

325

00:28:03,204 --> 00:28:06,986

I think it's very particular to those companies that I might want to go and try and work

for.

326

00:28:06,986 --> 00:28:15,383

So I think some of my kind of marketing around, because I need to try and secure specific

companies so I can try and work some stuff around that.

327

00:28:15,383 --> 00:28:25,903

I might even try and pitch by sending an animation specifically for that client if they

don't like it when it shows their brand then they're not going to like the rest of it but

328

00:28:25,903 --> 00:28:27,087

that it.

329

00:28:27,294 --> 00:28:33,970

so Duncan it sounds like you've probably got two or three companies in mind that you'd

like to directly pitch to, yeah?

330

00:28:33,970 --> 00:28:38,242

there's a couple of companies I'd already try and work for.

331

00:28:38,242 --> 00:28:40,993

it's kind of a matter of timing, whether or not it works for this year.

332

00:28:40,993 --> 00:28:46,275

For some of those ones, I'm acutely aware that one of those companies might have an AGM in

the new year.

333

00:28:46,275 --> 00:28:50,578

So you'd be pitching them for 2027, Great leading time.

334

00:28:50,578 --> 00:28:57,448

I also want to branch out and try and find some of those other people and not be

completely tied on to what I've done before.

335

00:28:57,448 --> 00:28:58,310

Yeah.

336

00:28:58,310 --> 00:29:02,776

How are you going to manage your focus over the next 12 months?

337

00:29:02,776 --> 00:29:07,982

I the way that this is going to happen is the fact that I'm basically going to take most

of December to do this.

338

00:29:07,982 --> 00:29:18,574

once I've got a showreel, getting into a routine with outreach is a lot easier In fact,

I've kind of got the web page kind of built but sort of not published.

339

00:29:18,574 --> 00:29:23,919

but it's that fundamental thing, that showreel that goes with it, that trailer that goes

with it is the thing.

340

00:29:23,919 --> 00:29:25,701

So I'm gonna work on it in December.

341

00:29:25,701 --> 00:29:29,504

I've got part of the storyboard and I've got a voiceover done for it.

342

00:29:29,504 --> 00:29:34,098

So that's what we in the trade would call an animatic.

343

00:29:34,098 --> 00:29:36,881

So it's a storyboard cut to the sound.

344

00:29:36,893 --> 00:29:40,245

that does give me a structure to then build that up into the finished thing.

345

00:29:40,245 --> 00:29:43,702

I treat it like a kind of client project for that, but one that I've got to get done.

346

00:29:43,702 --> 00:29:46,925

I'd get into a routine, each morning I'd try and do some cold outreach.

347

00:29:46,925 --> 00:29:50,089

I think there's going to be a lot of cold if I'm honest.

348

00:29:50,089 --> 00:29:53,152

And we'll see when it comes to having the custom.

349

00:29:53,152 --> 00:29:53,802

350

00:29:53,802 --> 00:30:04,426

branded things, I think it's worth me doing a few of those for a few key people because

that's what a lot of people do at the kind of agency level there and production companies,

351

00:30:04,426 --> 00:30:13,240

they will do pitches where they have to try and make a piece of work or something that

looks pretty decent to get that high value client but it's worth it when they secure that

352

00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:13,964

business.

353

00:30:13,964 --> 00:30:19,656

what is your delivery date for this initial showreel?

354

00:30:19,656 --> 00:30:21,147

before the Christmas holidays really.

355

00:30:21,147 --> 00:30:23,539

So probably the 20th of December.

356

00:30:23,539 --> 00:30:27,050

we're talking about a 32nd piece.

357

00:30:27,050 --> 00:30:33,433

However, it's multiple layers of animation, it's gonna have a load of demos of what

different screens would look like in different contexts.

358

00:30:33,433 --> 00:30:36,733

So people can kind of visualize what it would look like for them.

359

00:30:37,507 --> 00:30:42,208

here's your accountability that you asked for, does that then sit on the website that

you've already built,

360

00:30:42,208 --> 00:30:44,009

at that point it just gets posted everywhere.

361

00:30:44,009 --> 00:30:48,813

on the main web page, it introduces the service so it would work on social media and stuff

like that.

362

00:30:48,813 --> 00:30:54,772

I'd probably have to do a few different renders so it works with different resolutions and

shapes and things.

363

00:30:55,077 --> 00:30:55,579

I'm not a...

364

00:30:55,579 --> 00:30:55,992

365

00:30:55,992 --> 00:30:59,455

a marketing person, but that sounds like that's the start of your campaign.

366

00:30:59,455 --> 00:31:07,029

the long tail of your campaign around my brand's premium, who you stand for, where you're

going with it.

367

00:31:07,029 --> 00:31:09,740

And that's where you start December the 20th.

368

00:31:09,740 --> 00:31:20,446

And then you're moving into next year where you're looking to target specific companies,

which you have in mind, which you've got written down and look at getting their AGMs.

369

00:31:20,446 --> 00:31:23,222

That sounds like quite a specific goal itself.

370

00:31:23,222 --> 00:31:33,783

I you've got two or three goals here the first one is to get your product your showreel

out and into a format and then the secondary goal isn't it is to target the ideal clients.

371

00:31:33,783 --> 00:31:39,157

One thing that we've not talked about is, who are you using for support?

372

00:31:39,157 --> 00:31:44,460

you've got to do loads of things, but we're not infinite resources as humans.

373

00:31:44,460 --> 00:31:49,222

have you highlighted any people or spaces that you can go to for support?

374

00:31:49,899 --> 00:31:54,413

Yeah, so one of my best friends is actually in the Doing It for the Kids network.

375

00:31:54,413 --> 00:31:59,210

So that's Fuchsia Fuchsia and I have started co-mentoring recently.

376

00:31:59,210 --> 00:32:03,328

and trying to hold each other to account on that so that's there in terms of support.

377

00:32:03,328 --> 00:32:12,961

we're in a completely different sectors and I think this is what I saying about being

sector agnostic earlier, my thinking doesn't necessarily come from that sector and

378

00:32:12,961 --> 00:32:17,332

sometimes some of the weird and wonderful things I chuck into my work and nothing to do

with things that might be done in that.

379

00:32:17,332 --> 00:32:18,189

Mmm.

380

00:32:18,189 --> 00:32:19,410

at a given time.

381

00:32:19,410 --> 00:32:25,716

It might just be something I've figured out on my own and done my own R &D for, which does

give me an edge.

382

00:32:25,716 --> 00:32:28,869

But yeah, so Fuschia is really good for those conversations.

383

00:32:28,869 --> 00:32:33,995

We were having them more informally over the years at different times, just sort of, how's

your business going?

384

00:32:33,995 --> 00:32:35,827

And it usually comes back to you need a contract.

385

00:32:35,827 --> 00:32:37,124

386

00:32:37,124 --> 00:32:41,341

we're kind of keeping each other accountable from a kind of doing the work kind of

perspective.

387

00:32:41,341 --> 00:32:47,687

I've been around for a while, so I've got network of different freelancers and artists and

animators and.

388

00:32:47,940 --> 00:32:56,203

You know, if you need people to do a sword fight or, know, you've got all sorts of

ridiculous people that you know, you're like, oh, can't wait till there's a project to do

389

00:32:56,203 --> 00:32:56,343

this.

390

00:32:56,343 --> 00:32:59,394

I think it took a while to get sword fighters on something, but we got there.

391

00:32:59,394 --> 00:33:06,371

um So there's always like crazy different kind of, yeah, like, at some point we'll need

this for project.

392

00:33:06,371 --> 00:33:09,373

And you've just got that kind of little black book as they kind of call it.

393

00:33:09,373 --> 00:33:10,854

394

00:33:10,854 --> 00:33:11,586

since I was a kid.

395

00:33:11,586 --> 00:33:15,801

I've always had, I used to organise rock concerts at my school.

396

00:33:15,801 --> 00:33:20,994

I had Nokia 3110 and this little tiny notepad, because you couldn't store all the numbers.

397

00:33:20,994 --> 00:33:28,331

And I'd be to almost every problem that I had by going through this little notepad of mine

and finding the right number.

398

00:33:32,031 --> 00:33:28,462

minute.

399

00:33:28,462 --> 00:33:32,621

Tell me more about this side gig Was this secondary school?

400

00:33:32,621 --> 00:33:34,565

we had this amazing school theatre.

401

00:33:34,565 --> 00:33:39,544

normal comprehensive school, I grew up in Milton Keynes, I was in different metal bands

and stuff like that at the time.

402

00:33:39,544 --> 00:33:41,676

easiest way to put on your own band is to put on a gig.

403

00:33:41,676 --> 00:33:47,512

I used to just get other, and we'd raise money for charity or for the school for different

bits and pieces

404

00:33:47,512 --> 00:33:49,447

school sounds is amazing!

405

00:33:49,447 --> 00:33:53,043

so yeah, that was sort of an early kind of...

406

00:33:53,043 --> 00:34:00,764

look into how to kind of put on productions and that was that got me into kind of the

networks of the different bands and things like that which did you know come in helpful

407

00:34:00,764 --> 00:34:03,175

later when it was the music video time

408

00:34:03,175 --> 00:34:06,904

What's your equivalent of your little black book now?

409

00:34:06,904 --> 00:34:08,050

What do say?

410

00:34:08,050 --> 00:34:09,211

I don't know if it's...

411

00:34:09,211 --> 00:34:18,467

I obviously just have your phone and contact details and I think my brain's usually just

got somewhere in the back of my mind for any given kind of situation so it's possibly not

412

00:34:18,467 --> 00:34:22,699

down on paper anymore it's just been internalised, it's been absorbed into my head.

413

00:34:22,699 --> 00:34:23,370

miss

414

00:34:23,529 --> 00:34:32,544

it'd be quite curious from my perspective as we've been talking I mean the notes I've made

just to kind of take you through I've written down you know you're connected and you've

415

00:34:32,544 --> 00:34:43,443

worked in industries and you are somebody with lots of experience of freelancing and

working around networks etc you have this infinite network of people who know people who

416

00:34:43,443 --> 00:34:49,871

know people and you know your creative possibilities and the ideas that you've got you

don't want to pin yourself into one particular

417

00:34:49,871 --> 00:35:01,534

niche other than your brand being premium so I was just thinking you know there is a way

here isn't there to kind of capitalize on all of those really networks and relationships

418

00:35:01,534 --> 00:35:03,235

ensuring that they are the

419

00:35:03,235 --> 00:35:12,263

the first to know about your new showreel, they're the first people to tell I'm doing

something different even if they're not your client because they might tell somebody else

420

00:35:12,263 --> 00:35:18,533

and that was just what came to mind really, go, know, just to even sit and have an hour

thinking about it.

421

00:35:18,533 --> 00:35:19,083

interesting.

422

00:35:19,083 --> 00:35:27,416

Yeah, I I've got, I've probably got a bigger network in terms of sort of freelancers and

other people I would turn to to bring into projects than I've not, than I've necessarily

423

00:35:27,416 --> 00:35:28,807

got as a client base.

424

00:35:28,807 --> 00:35:36,340

I think the advantage of working for a few other studios and stuff in the past is that

you've, they just sort of get you the, they've brought in the client there.

425

00:35:36,340 --> 00:35:40,425

So you don't have to necessarily have that networking.

426

00:35:40,425 --> 00:35:48,873

And I don't think I was that strategic with it in the past as to like, you know, I think

I've learned now that you've got to demonstrate like this is what you'd use the animation

427

00:35:48,873 --> 00:35:49,363

for.

428

00:35:49,363 --> 00:35:57,439

uh I think there's a lot of talk now within the motion design community in particular

about you need to explain what this is to clients so they can understand what they're

429

00:35:57,439 --> 00:35:58,011

buying.

430

00:35:58,011 --> 00:36:00,574

most clients aren't thinking motion design or animation.

431

00:36:00,574 --> 00:36:02,735

They've just got a problem they're trying to solve.

432

00:36:02,735 --> 00:36:03,817

433

00:36:03,817 --> 00:36:11,844

if you were to set yourself a specific kind of action around networking for 2026, what's

that going to look like?

434

00:36:11,844 --> 00:36:20,673

to actually have contacts and connections who would be willing to take these things, even

if it isn't right now, but knowing more people.

435

00:36:20,673 --> 00:36:23,790

And then I think there's probably a wider network of people around it.

436

00:36:23,790 --> 00:36:34,935

as much as you've spoken about PR people and facilities and events managers, think trying

to find some of wider network of that, that, like you say, might kind of help those loose

437

00:36:34,935 --> 00:36:35,713

connections.

438

00:36:35,713 --> 00:36:39,306

What's the first step to do that?

439

00:36:39,420 --> 00:36:42,103

I guess trying to find where some of those networks are living.

440

00:36:42,103 --> 00:36:45,155

There's different people who've got contacts and recommend different people.

441

00:36:45,155 --> 00:36:47,177

And some of these things are just so informal.

442

00:36:47,177 --> 00:36:49,892

So trying to tap into that.

443

00:36:49,892 --> 00:36:56,531

So does that look like an email to someone you know to say tell me about this or is it

cold outreach?

444

00:36:56,531 --> 00:36:57,702

It's gonna be a bit of a mix.

445

00:36:57,702 --> 00:37:02,213

It's probably a smaller pool of people that I can contact directly that I already know.

446

00:37:02,213 --> 00:37:06,284

So I think there will be quite a lot of cold outreach to start with for a lot of this.

447

00:37:06,284 --> 00:37:16,111

But at the end of the day, I want to take on four of these types of projects, four to six

of these types of projects a year if I'm just doing this.

448

00:37:16,111 --> 00:37:16,853

Yeah.

449

00:37:16,853 --> 00:37:24,133

there might be a concentration of those different AGMs into a time of the year where

everyone decides to have, you we talk about conference season.

450

00:37:24,293 --> 00:37:29,913

So it could well be that that's why it needs to concentrate into those points in the year.

451

00:37:29,913 --> 00:37:36,845

And then those other parts of the year, I do the other things that I do, whether that's

making films and the other stuff that I do.

452

00:37:36,845 --> 00:37:47,642

I think it's gonna be a lot of cold outreach, I'm psychologically already prepared for the

rejection or just complete silence that will come with cold outreach because I just need

453

00:37:47,642 --> 00:37:49,904

to tell myself, I only need to get a couple of clients here.

454

00:37:49,904 --> 00:37:54,159

I that will whittle down to like, kinds of people am I enjoying working with?

455

00:37:54,159 --> 00:37:57,429

Are these sectors compatible with what I do?

456

00:37:57,429 --> 00:37:59,362

457

00:37:59,362 --> 00:38:09,165

I'm preparing myself for a lot of rejection, but I only need to get those few key people,

get those few conversations in, because I want to make sure that whoever I'm working with

458

00:38:09,165 --> 00:38:12,189

is getting the proper amount of time and service from me.

459

00:38:12,189 --> 00:38:14,011

Okay, so let's take it from the top then.

460

00:38:14,011 --> 00:38:25,893

Your wider goal is to move your business into a premium service working with, four to six

premium clients a year.

461

00:38:25,893 --> 00:38:40,372

to get there you've got a constraint which is being able to use social proof so your

response to that is to launch a showreel which you can do by the end of December and then

462

00:38:40,372 --> 00:38:46,259

to market that and promote it during January and onwards.

463

00:38:46,259 --> 00:38:50,081

what does success look like for you in March?

464

00:38:50,081 --> 00:38:52,434

What would success look and feel like?

465

00:38:52,434 --> 00:38:57,100

think success would be having at least one client lined up for that.

466

00:39:04,132 --> 00:39:04,220

Just It wouldn't necessarily have to be that I'm working on it right there and then, but

it'd be nice if I was.

467

00:39:05,821 --> 00:39:09,804

Yeah, I think strongly this is what I'm looking for in March.

468

00:39:10,362 --> 00:39:11,391

Yeah, okay.

469

00:39:11,391 --> 00:39:18,424

I would want to have started that kind of process of outreach and got some positive

response to it.

470

00:39:18,424 --> 00:39:27,764

securing one of the previous clients that I've got in mind would be a great one as well.

471

00:39:27,764 --> 00:39:30,804

But I wouldn't want to guarantee that.

472

00:39:31,104 --> 00:39:35,552

being intentionally pessimistic because better from there.

473

00:39:35,552 --> 00:39:42,486

you talked about that mixed approach, is cold outreach, high rejection, response

anticipated.

474

00:39:42,486 --> 00:39:52,481

And then you've got the warm outreach, which is to reconnect with previous clients and

say, hey, I'm doing this, but not just with clients, but with network It's really starting

475

00:39:52,481 --> 00:39:53,302

to get yourself known.

476

00:39:53,302 --> 00:39:55,465

So that's that's success for March.

477

00:39:55,465 --> 00:39:57,567

Are your children old enough to be in school?

478

00:39:57,567 --> 00:40:08,502

Yeah so yeah so July we're we're just entering that free fall of summer holidays and

juggling etc so what does what does success look like for you in July?

479

00:40:08,502 --> 00:40:11,624

success would be not having to work in August.

480

00:40:13,307 --> 00:40:17,160

that might be incompatible with some of the clients so we'll see.

481

00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:21,515

I'm kind of prepared for that,

482

00:40:21,515 --> 00:40:31,216

Success for me is a very different thing to I think what it might look for other people as

much as these things need to be paid for and there's money involved and you know it's a

483

00:40:31,216 --> 00:40:33,929

premium service to do it well and to make it sustainable.

484

00:40:33,929 --> 00:40:42,032

At the end of the day I want to make sure that success factors in the rest of my life so

success to me means that I'm not burnt out and that

485

00:40:42,032 --> 00:40:51,297

able to do these things so that I think success is making things that look good that work

well for the client without completely burning me out.

486

00:40:51,297 --> 00:40:53,519

it needs to be making enough money to make it sustainable.

487

00:40:53,519 --> 00:40:54,793

It needs to be able to fund.

488

00:40:54,793 --> 00:40:57,096

some of the other R &D stuff that I do.

489

00:40:57,096 --> 00:41:10,776

So you've gone through your year, you have transitioned, you have picked up a premium

client or two, because we said, you know, the four to six might not be entirely achievable

490

00:41:10,776 --> 00:41:20,039

in year one of pivoting, but, and you're well on your way to your third client, shall we

say, How's success feeling this time next year?

491

00:41:20,039 --> 00:41:22,417

I I'd want it so that it became...

492

00:41:22,417 --> 00:41:26,244

I can't think of a better way to phrase it than it's become more of a pipeline.

493

00:41:26,244 --> 00:41:27,516

It's a routine.

494

00:41:27,516 --> 00:41:34,780

So I had this in the past when I was doing a lot more music video stuff where I would

have...

495

00:41:34,780 --> 00:41:42,716

have people coming along and signing up and things because they'd heard of me and they

knew my reputation so there's people that were just coming to me without me having to

496

00:41:42,716 --> 00:41:51,924

reach out and I think that's probably where I'd like to be by November but it might still

be too early come next November for that kind of thing that might take a couple of years

497

00:41:51,924 --> 00:41:55,774

to establish where the people that I should be talking to are

498

00:41:55,774 --> 00:41:57,062

okay, yeah.

499

00:41:57,062 --> 00:42:03,086

and that that network of strong leads is a much stronger pool of people.

500

00:42:03,086 --> 00:42:08,068

I think I'd be lot clearer on how to approach those people as well.

501

00:42:08,209 --> 00:42:18,504

I think it's going to be of trying out a few different methods to get people's attention

for this stuff and see what works and what works in terms of the right kind of client

502

00:42:19,203 --> 00:42:25,496

at the start and you were talking about really working at a more premium level.

503

00:42:25,496 --> 00:42:30,720

your goal is really about getting a strong lead strategy for the year.

504

00:42:30,720 --> 00:42:37,423

So the vision, the mission is one thing, but perhaps the goal is something quite

different.

505

00:42:37,423 --> 00:42:47,336

And I think it's wonderful that you've got this co-mentoring already in place because

that's where you could really harness the power of co-mentoring to

506

00:42:47,596 --> 00:43:00,473

be teasing out what that looks like and that strong lead strategy ties in with the

creative side of Doing things for people to give them a bit of a flavor and feel because

507

00:43:00,473 --> 00:43:07,688

it's not just cold outreach then is it it's your your I think you're talking about more

tailored Strategy of outreach.

508

00:43:07,688 --> 00:43:15,482

that would be really fascinating to think about I think what I would perhaps suggest at

this point is to think about this and listen back

509

00:43:15,482 --> 00:43:21,416

conversation and then firm up a little bit more what your your goal is

510

00:43:21,416 --> 00:43:23,370

Yeah, I've been making some notes here.

511

00:43:25,191 --> 00:43:26,393

I love it.

512

00:43:26,393 --> 00:43:38,060

I did speak to Darren last week and I think you'll find his episode really intriguing he

starts out talking about all the work he's done this year learning about sales and sales

513

00:43:38,060 --> 00:43:46,656

techniques and stuff and I think that would be a really interesting person for you to have

a conversation with because you're both creatives,

514

00:43:46,656 --> 00:43:54,473

how we do do sales and how we do think about leads etc you know it is a skill we have to

add on to our core business

515

00:43:54,295 --> 00:43:55,717

I will check in with you

516

00:43:55,717 --> 00:44:00,849

I will set up a session for you in January where you come together with a couple of the

other goal setters.

517

00:44:00,849 --> 00:44:04,041

you'll be able to input into other people's goals as well.

518

00:44:04,041 --> 00:44:04,583

Sounds good.

519

00:44:04,583 --> 00:44:06,175

Thank you so much for being a guest.

520

00:44:06,175 --> 00:44:08,469

I've really enjoyed today's conversation.

521

00:44:08,469 --> 00:44:11,973

people are going to really enjoy following your journey next year.

522

00:44:12,268 --> 00:44:12,862

you likewise.

523

00:44:12,862 --> 00:44:13,908

Thanks so much for having me.

524

00:44:16,682 --> 00:44:24,520

If you've been listening and thinking I'd love to feel clarity about my own goals, I've

created something to help you begin.

525

00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:33,677

Head to www.leilaainge.co.uk forward slash coaching and download your goal reflection log.

526

00:44:33,778 --> 00:44:42,736

This helps you to uncover what's driving your goals and that gives you the space to

understand if it's the right goal in the first place.

527

00:44:43,557 --> 00:44:52,120

So if you're serious about entering the new year with direction, confidence, and a

psychology back plan, this is where it starts.

528

00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:57,432

And when you're ready for deeper work, you'll find all the details of my one-to-one

sessions there too.

529

00:45:00,902 --> 00:45:12,148

Thank you for listening to Psychologically Speaking with me Leila Ainge and a favour I've

set my own goal to double the number of folk who listen to this podcast each week.

530

00:45:12,148 --> 00:45:17,703

Here's your invitation to share this episode with two friends or contacts from your

531

00:45:17,703 --> 00:45:23,663

podcast platform of choice with the question, what's your goal for 2026?